You got it perfect junio. I agree with everything you have said. And is the absolute truth regardless if these haters and pretenders don’t want to swallow it. I won’t even waste my time throwing in my opinion when you got it absolutely perfect. The man was a phenom, inside, outside and a stagnant sport and division at the time owes him their thanks. The sport and industry still owe him. Hate him or love him. It was a great fu(king ride ;)
Right…. Tyson was past his prime at 23… Idiot.Posted June 16, 2013 1:38 am
? aka Angie
Oh you REALLY are an actor and comedian, no doubt about that !! LOL !! Please stop, my belly hurts already from laughing so hard !Posted June 13, 2013 3:37 pm
NO, because I’m not that person. That says something about you believing I’m that person and without providing me the answer “why.” But at the same point, I can’t blame you either given it is the internet and its hard to verify.
And I’m going to guess you are someone who consistently posts if you know posters by name so next time, if I do post again, just avoid my posts because I will have to do that with yours because again; there is no point of having a conversation with someone that is identifying me with someone else. It’s a bias that will ruin the conversation based on preconceived notions. The tone of the conversation will be ruined.
By the way, given the amount of people discussing a hot topic, given the amount of people that will read similar/same material, given people tend to use similar ideas and/or facts… especially ones made and credited to those that were there and involved who have a more educated answer/view-point….it would thus provide similarities in more than one posters response.
Wave….Posted June 13, 2013 2:39 pm
That’s not what I’ve said, I’m not irritated at all. I meant you TRY to irritate me, but you CAN’T.
I repeat : You, dear Sred, are not as good as you think you are. You got it ?Posted June 13, 2013 2:13 pm
If its irritating you then that says something about you, not me. A person can only irritate you if you yourself have an issue. And if that is the relationship you have with yourself, and maybe with this other person, and you thinking I’m that person, then there would be no point to respond to your comments regarding other topics in the future because you will be coming to the debate with preconceived notions.
And that’s what I was pointing out in requesting the posts and/or similarities to see what and who I’m dealing with. Both with you and this other person.Posted June 13, 2013 1:55 pm
Give me posts or tell me the similarities.Posted June 13, 2013 1:50 pm
? aka Angie
Oh you give me headache…You just proved it again with your last comment. That’s just sooo typically you Sred. It’s really obviously. You CAN’T irritate me, no way ! Like I said : Live with this.Posted June 13, 2013 1:43 pm
I’m not that person. You won’t even supply me with links to the posts which shows me you are prejudging and will not be good to debate with in future conversations because you will link my name and the other together…which creates a bias in responses based on your view of how I’m supposedly saying my response in tone. Or is it views? I’m unaware of what the similarities you see.
? aka Angie
Give it up! You ar not as good as you think you are ! Live with this…Posted June 13, 2013 1:13 pm
I’m not the same.
What do you mean “nicer”?
There is no “Nice” or “Mean” in my comments. They are responses with the end being a closing remark showing the overall view. Have you ever written a paper or debated in such a manner? Or are all these comments just about trolling like others do?
So show me links to the other. I’m curious to see who I am being compared to.Posted June 13, 2013 12:53 pm
“By the way, who or what is SRED?” OH PLEEEEEASE !!!! You’ve tried to change your “style” and with your last comment you tried to be a little bit “nicer” . LOL !! You can’t fool a woman boy….Posted June 13, 2013 12:36 pm
Listen, I’m not saying Tyson is the Greatest. I don’t think he is. Even if he could beat this ATG and that ATG which is all speculation…I still wouldn’t rank him #1 because he made poor choices while others made better ones which isn’t saying a lot since the majority, if not all, have made questionable choices. But hey, they are all human.
But I just don’t see Tyson in the same light as fighters that didn’t rely on some things he needed.
I don’t even know if he could beat Holyfield and Lewis peak vs. peak. None of us now. Now we can amuse ourselves and talk about why you think he would or wouldn’t, but in the end, we just don’t know.
By the way, who or what is SRED? Is that short for something???Posted June 13, 2013 12:16 pm
It’s Me, Ernie
Most excellent post Junio…Posted June 13, 2013 11:57 am
Tyson is viewed “out of is prime” by not only fans, but Trainers, Boxers and Media alike that followed his career BECAUSE he was no longer fighting in the manner that had him storm onto the Heavyweight Scene and unify the titles.
When Floyd Patterson was asked what advice he would give Tyson he said: “REMEMBER WHAT GOT YOU THERE….that’s all.”
Was Tyson the same fighter by 1990 as he was in say, 1988? HELL NO. The ’88 version of Tyson would kicked the crap out of the 1990 version.
What got Tyson to the point of being a 20 year old Champion at 5’11, 215 pounds and winning against more experienced and even bigger fighters?
We are talking about a 5’11 guy who was landing Jab after Jab on 6’5 fighters like Green, Biggs and Tucker. Why? Because of the training. When he stopped that training, he started to get tagged. That’s what set him up for Douglas. Tyson’s timing was off. his balance was off. He was all about clinching at that point. He just wasn’t the same.
AS FAR AS HIM LOSING WHEN SOMEBODY STOOD UP TO HIM THAT IS COMPLETE BULL. AND SOME NONSENSE MADE UP BY TEDDY ATLAS AND ALL THE OTHER PEN-WARRIORS WHO LOVE TO TEAR DOWN A REAL FIGHTER.
READ SOME ARTICLES. Even Ribalta wasn’t scared of him and he still lost. Tougher fighter than Tyson planned for and he himself talked about it.
Ruddock could care less about Tyson. Actually, Ruddock approached Tyson on several occasions to get that fight. Even Grabbed Tyson’s arm and told him to his face…I Got Next. Fight Me. How did that end for Ruddock?
What was lost after the Michael Spinks fight?
Kevin Rooney: One of the few in boxing that understood the D”Amato Teachings. And not only did he continue to one Tyson’s skills, make sure he was sharp as he was willing to be at that point, but he also Game-Planned for Tyson and guided him through fights like the majority of Trainers (if not all). Who did he have after Rooney?
You don’t hand the keys to a Ferrari to a bunch of idiots. NO. You keep those keys in the hands of a Great Team that will nurture the machine.
Now, should Tyson have been still in is Prime? YES. Physically, even though he was being worn down and probably should have had a break, especially from the mental part since he had to deal with immense World-Wide Fame and Media pressure….but Tyson is the one who blew it. And that’s on him.Posted June 13, 2013 11:40 am
I don’t drink … or slurp… Those are your hobbies enema schnozzle.Posted June 13, 2013 11:34 am
It’s Me, Ernie
Put down the cheap bourbon and step back from the keyboard please…Posted June 13, 2013 10:59 am
You also slurped another Enema Ernie.Posted June 13, 2013 12:05 am
It’s Me, Ernie
Junio has the beat…Posted June 12, 2013 9:16 pm
Incorrectamundo is the right name for you … You are incorrect at all times. Lance Armstrong tested positive for everything when they went back and retested his frozen samples and found he was dirty.. Marion Jones also was forced to admit her usage from tests of frozen samples, as were many others.. They continually update the tests to include all the new stuff they find, so now they keep your samples frozen for generations to come..
You can’t say somebody who is ripped or gained weight is a taker.. Dianabol and a lot of legal products were around and many athletes took them.. I was offered Dianabol and many other products but I thought they might hurt my body in some way so I refused to touch them.. Baseball has terrible and inconsistent testing so McGuire, Bonds, and Sosa might slide.. Olympic testing is state-of-the-art, and athletes don’t dare cheat anymore because they plan to keep your samples frozen for generations now … The athletes of my day were certainly bigger users of PEDs than today — because today’s athletes know they can’t get away with it for long.Posted June 12, 2013 7:08 pm
Unbiased Dane. LOL !Posted June 12, 2013 6:47 pm
Pubicenemyisstupid… The steroid era was the 60′s and 70′s… The East Germans had such massive Olympic success that everybody started doing it.. People like Florence Griffith Joiner and Serge Redding died very young.. Of course now that PED’s are illegal almost all the world records from the steroid era have been shattered by clean athletes so it shows you don’t need them … and they do more harm than good.
Evander Holyfield hiring Lee Haney is a puzzle… Why hire a body builder as a strength trainer??? Body building is all about looking pretty, huge, symmetrical, and ripped, not about being strong and powerful in an athletic sense. But I guess it worked for Holyfield against Tyson. Holy got bigger and stronger — but I think the wins were more about having a better jab, better defense, more precise combinations, being a good enough infighter to stay with Tyson on the inside — and out-box Mike whenever the fight went outside.
The inside/outside scenario was Holy’s chief game plan. He wasn’t trying to beat Tyson inside—just stay even with him while using less energy … and whipping on Mike whenever the fight moved to longer range.Posted June 12, 2013 6:28 pm
? ‘Junio reminds me of Sred.’
The only fighter said to be out of his prime at 24 is Tyson. Sorry but being in your prime against b level fighters and suddenly not when you starts fighting better fighters who wasnt affraid of you is nothing but one big excuse. Was Wlad out of his prime at the time when he got beaten by Corrie Sanders ? i guess his been back in his prime for some time. Same goes for a lot of other fighters.Posted June 12, 2013 5:54 pm
Junio reminds me of Sred.Posted June 12, 2013 4:30 pm
What was that Tark use Steroids with Lee Haney than head butt and holdPosted June 12, 2013 4:19 pm
Do yours…Posted June 12, 2013 4:11 pm
Do your research.Posted June 12, 2013 4:03 pm
Razor Ruddock was a punching bag… Lewis took him TFO in 2 rounds without even trying.. The real opponent for Tyson to fight was Lewis.. But just like Holyfield, Tyson ducked Lewis of years and years and years.
But at least Mike DID fight Lewis when he was 35 and Lewis was 36… Bowe flat out wouldn’t fight Lewis. Holyfield fought Lewis when there was no graceful way out of the fight. Tyson is the only Heavyweight Champion who got knocked out by 3 Heavyweight Champions who are all older than he is.
Holyfield wasn’t past his best when he fought Tyson. He was right at the peak of his experience, skills, and strength. 218 pounds of rock-solid muscle. He often says that Tyson was one of the best fights he ever fought. He had a game plan and followed it to perfection.Posted June 12, 2013 3:37 pm
As far a Lennox not being a true fighter…just watch the fight with Mercer. If Lewis was just a “boxer” he would have been beaten.
As far as the rematch with Vitali…Lewis mentally wasn’t there to do the rematch. He was at the end of the road while Vitali was the hungry Lion on the rise.
Why didn’t Wlad want Brewster in an immediate rematch and instead, waited for Brewster to fall off?
Even Tyson, who got his ass kicked by Douglas asked for the rematch.
Tyson didn’t have to give Ruddock a rematch and did.
So this works in many different ways.
You can probably look at all fighters and see where they were “hesitant” to fight so and so at certain points.
Like even Tyson post-prison was just in it for the money and didn’t want to fight dangerous fights because he knew where he was at in his life and career.Posted June 12, 2013 3:18 pm
But its when Tyson stopped training with Rooney, stopped training with that style that he fell off and became more of a brawler which was disastrous.
Without training, which helped him with his timing, movement, and attack…he was a sitting duck and took more shots after Spinks than any time before.
It’s like the training methods today vs. yesterday: One thing that helped Tyson was a device/training technique called “The Willy” that D’Amato devised. It trained for everything: Timing, Speed, combinations, etc.
You are not born that good. It takes years to get that good.
Wlad had a great quote about how it takes many steps to climb a mountain but only one step to fall off…..or something like that. That’s the way it is with anything in life. You have to continually prepare because just one moment of not doing what got you to the top, not focusing, and you slip off the mountain.
Like Patterson’s advice to Tyson: “Remember what got you there.”Posted June 12, 2013 3:10 pm
Tyson was actually more of a mid-range fighter who had the ability to fight on the inside although he could become reluctant to do so depending on the situation and opponent.
Tyson relied on you throwing more than anything. He was an aggressive counter-puncher.
He relied on timing, accuracy, movement, etc. to win his fights. He wasn’t an all out brawler who wore down his opponents. He really couldn’t; his era were to big to do that except pre-title fights when he could fight opponents more his weight or lower.
How do you think he was able to out-Jab, out-box much bigger men that were 6’5 and had a longer reach?
5’11, and landing jabs on 6’5 fighters like Green, Tucker, and Biggs.Posted June 12, 2013 3:05 pm
You have the same problem Tark is having: AGE is not always the indicator of telling if you are in your prime or not. Go over the history of fighting. Go over the history of Sports. Go over the history of Life: EVERYONE AGES DIFFERENTLY BASED ON THEIR LIFE PATH/EXPERIENCE/WEAR AND TEAR.
Some fighters are past it in their 20′s, others in their 30′s. Nobody is the same. And there are many different reasons as to why a fighter would be past it but that’s why each fighter/person is taken by an individual case and not lumped in with the rest.
Some are destroyed by outside life. Some from the Gym/Ring only. Some are a combination of both.
Hoflyeild was past his prime. People talked about it even then which is why they were concerned with his health going into the Tyson fight. But people also continued to overlook that Tyson himself was not the same which he himself admitted later. Mentally, he was wreck. Technically, or his boxing ability, was horrible. Physically, he was OK but not the same as he was pre-prison.
Just watch videos and compare the two. Pick fights from the 80′s and early 90′s for Holyfield and Tyson from the 80′s. Compare to that fight and after. Big Difference.Posted June 12, 2013 2:58 pm
I was never impressed with Bowe’s boxing skills in the least… The fight that really impressed me with Bowe’s lack of skills was the Tony Tubbs fight.. Tubbs was tubby and spent, but Bowe could barely beat him.. Where at least Tyson Fury out-boxed Kevin Johnson by a million miles … I think the Johnson fight convinced Fury he’s a great boxer, when he really has 10,000 miles to go to match the skills of Wladimir.Posted June 12, 2013 2:49 pm
Junio what is it that indicates that Holyfield was past it when he fought Tyson, he was only 34 years old. Do you also think he was past it when Holy lost to moorer ?
Bowe never would have fought Lewis in a million years.. He threw his World Championship Belt in a garbage pail with the media all present, to demonstrate he had no intention of EVER fighting Lewis — who was bigger, stronger, smarter, more emotionally mature, and a much better athlete.. Bowe wasn’t a good infighter, or he wouldn’t have had a hard time with Andrew Golota, who Lamon Brewster blew away in one minute with left hooks to the body and head.. Lewis and Tyson blew Golota away almost as fast — and even slow-as-molasses Michael Grant stopped the cowardly Golota, who refused to continue after Grant beat him up and knocked him down.
Even Herbie Hide out-boxed Bowe with ease for a couple rounds.. Only Bowe’s massive size and brawling and bullying tactics enabled him to get back into the fight—much like Tyson Fury beating up Steve Cunningham after losing the 1st couple rounds to the better and smaller boxer.. Although Fury is a much better boxer than Bowe was.Posted June 12, 2013 2:42 pm
I don’t think Wlad’s competition was/is crap. We can review every era and pick apart the competition…even the “Golden Era” of Heavyweights. But not all fighters compare.Posted June 12, 2013 2:36 pm
As far as Bowe, I read there was more to the story. Bowe wanted Lewis but his handlers as well as politics got in the way of it. I can’t remember who talked about it but it was mentioned how Bowe said Lewis was a KO waiting to happen because he knew Lewis could be hit flush and when he did, down he goes.
now if that would have happened in this fight, I don’t know. It would have been good to see but only during a very short time period as we all saw Bowe struggled more with keeping his hands away from the cookie-jar than anything else.Posted June 12, 2013 2:15 pm
Hidalgo…, Amir Khan did wake up and smell the coffee.. He DID change trainers.. But I don’t know how dedicated his is to improving his craft — because I didn’t see a ripple of difference when he fought Molina and Diaz.. But part of the problem may be that Khan isn’t Hunter’s main concern.. Hunter has to worry about Andre Ward. Virgil Hunter doesn’t have a record of developing many boxers from scratch to world champions like Manny Steward had.
Maybe Amir will unveil his new skills when he meets Alexander.. I’m open-minded.. But one of these upcoming fights we’ve got to see a real improvement.. I would say, once he’s been with Hunter for about 2 years, if you don’t see a new Amir, he’s a lost cause.Posted June 12, 2013 1:59 pm
“You know their 1st fight together was a disaster—you don’t become a defensive master overnight.” Then why do you continue to rag on Amir Khan since he has been with Virgil Hunter, Tark? Same thing applies.Posted June 12, 2013 1:37 pm
Wlad still has flaws. He isn’t good at fighting on the inside and instead Emanuel taught him to clinch or shuffle back (which does work but wouldn’t work with much better opposition)…which brings me to this question: Would Wladimir look this good against better opposition?
Lewis had flaws too but he could “fight.” Wlad is a pure “boxer” only but a good one.
@Junio…, Wladimir K. had tremendous flaws in his stance and defense—sort of like Seth Mitchell who looks tremendously impressive when he’s on the attack—but looks lost when he gets hit. If Mitchell gets knocked out by Banks again, he’ll need to assess who’s training him and what they can teach him. Banks took Seth apart with ease—like he was a sub-novice.
Wladimir got on the phone to Steward and said, “You’ve gotta help me.” You know their 1st fight together was a disaster—you don’t become a defensive master overnight. Wladimir stuck with Steward and everyone sees the results. Mitchell is a young guy—so all is not lost if he finds a great trainer.Posted June 12, 2013 12:15 pm
It’s Me, Ernie
Actually Wladdie has learned to hold his left arm out in front of him as a feeler, then once he senses anything, he retreats several steps to avoid any confrontation. If an opponent gets inside his perimeter, then he holds them. Usually the cruiserweight gets exhausted and Klit gets another boring victory, and the sport goes that much deeper into the crapper…Posted June 12, 2013 12:05 pm
What has held Wladimir together is similar to Lennox Lewis: A good foundation. They continually wanted to get better and found ways to do so. They both had a great support system all the way through. Lewis with his Mother and Wlad with his Brother (and Father/Mother). But overall, both stood on their own two feet and decided what was best for themselves. Especially since Vitali wanted Wlad to retire and Wlad refused. He became his own Man.
Both Wladimir and Lennox had some set-backs but rose each time. That’s a great Champion.
Fighters get knocked out; it happens. What shouldn’t happen is what happened to both Douglas and Tyson when they got knocked out and lost their title….They showed up in poor condition…Mentally, Physically, and Technically. They lacked the spirit at the time.
At least Wlad showed up in Shape and Prepared for all his matches except for maybe Sanders which I think he said he may have bought into the hype a bit to much.Posted June 12, 2013 11:35 am
Everybody can be knocked out. But if you look at the Douglas/Tyson story carefully, you’ll see that there were similarities in their story and what caused their rise and fall:
Douglas was largely an unmotivated fighter for a portion of his career. He had all the athletic talent in the world and he had a Father who was a former Pro fighter who instilled in him the knowledge of boxing. But Douglas’s heart wasn’t in boxing for a good portion of his life. He did it but he didn’t have that all out desire to be the best he could be.
Tyson on the other hand had an awakening when boxing was a way out. He hooked up with Bobby Stewart and then Cus D’Amato who helped him dream of a World that could be his if only he found the desire, the heart, the will to risk it all for Glory. Tyson talked about how he made up his mind at 15/16 that this is what he really wanted to do and it was all or nothing. His training picked up to peak levels…Mentally, Physically, and Technically.
But now take Douglas. After Douglas’s basketball career was over and other things, he decided to push for Boxing. He got himself into peak shape. He believed he could win and he did.
But what happened when Douglas won the title from Tyson? It ended. Like he said, he had all the intention of winning the title but no intention to hold on to it. His Goal was winning the title; not defending it.
So One Man was Falling, Tyson, and another Man, Douglas, was Rising. But then that Man, Douglas, Fell off and another Man, a Hungrier Man, Holyfield, Full of Spirit, WON.Posted June 12, 2013 11:28 am
Wladimir has been Heavyweight Champion for many years, so he solved his defensive shortcomings by listening to master trainers, Steward and Banks. He probably wishes he ran into these guys earlier.
Tyson got a fortuitous early start… By age 12 Mike was being coached by one of the greatest trainers, strategic match makers, and career molders who ever lived.. Being 45-1 when he faced Holyfield has to be seen in the light of Tyson never having faced a prime heavyweight of impressive height, size, and strength, who was a good boxer and puncher—except for Buster Douglas. Buster beat Tyson from pillar to post before he knocked him out.
Douglas suffered 3 KO losses before he ever met Tyson—and would go on to suffer more KO losses. So being knocked out a few times doesn’t mean you can’t beat the piss out of a prime 23-year-old Tyson.Posted June 12, 2013 11:17 am
It’s Me, Ernie
Will the real SREDMOND please sit down??Posted June 12, 2013 11:11 am
Tyson one hell of an early career and made it to 45-1 acting like he accomplished little at HW or should be pitied is weird… Getting beaten by Evander is no shame, he’s an ATG fighter… We have guys getting knocked out by BUMS like Ross’s Purrity… Tyson Unified, was youngest HW Champion etc.. When it was over it was over…Posted June 12, 2013 9:45 am
@Hidalgo… It wasn’t worth reading… I scanned a few pages in less than a minute. I love reading the work of thoughtful, knowledgeable, gifted thinkers who do a great deal of research, interviewing, and fact checking. If I feel somebody poured their passion and part of their life into a book, and it’s a fabulous finished product, I’ll read it. If it has errors that are easy to fact check, the writing is sloppy and sensationalized, and the point of view isn’t objective, I won’t bother. I can read the morning paper and get more out of it.Posted June 12, 2013 12:06 am
It’s Me, Ernie
Uh, umm, by posting a link of a photo of the so-called 6 figure bet receipt. It’s not rocket-surgery…Posted June 11, 2013 10:23 pm
“This is an exploitative book… Sensationalized, sloppy, and inaccurate, ” Have you read it, Tark?Posted June 11, 2013 9:54 pm
I knew this matchup would be good because both got hit a lot and both took of good punch.. Both could deal.. I felt Holyfield had too many boxing and infighting skills, was almost as strong as Tyson, and was mentally tougher.
Tyson was the perfect opponent for Holyfield… Just like he was the perfect opponent for Douglas and Lewis.
Poor Mike… If you were a brilliant boxer, but lacked big heavyweight strength and power, Mike would be on you like a school of piranha on a naked swimmer … say you were only as strong as Michael Spinks.. Holyfield was PEDing out in those days … so he made the threshold..Posted June 11, 2013 7:36 pm
Publicenemyisdumb : maybe Tyson did use steroids. Enyway he got beat by a b level fighter at age 24.Posted June 11, 2013 4:02 pm
Holyfield had to use steroids to compete with Mike Tyson can you imagine if Tyson used steroids what he would have done to today’s heaviesPosted June 11, 2013 3:32 pm
I see Good
When TYSON bit off part of Mr. Religions ear off. That was WRONG. But Mr. Religous KING head butter , hit TYSON below the BELT 5 times. NOTHING was mention by the commentators OR the Referee. I am NOT sticking up for TYSON. Mr. head butter was a GREAT fighter but also the dirtiest fighter in the buisness.Posted June 11, 2013 3:27 pm
TARK, don’t make that loser relevant, just ignore him…don’t answer him & he’ll go away eventually.Posted June 11, 2013 2:48 pm
You’re all hole… Not pie either. It’s the only thing you rate an A on.Posted June 11, 2013 2:12 pm
It’s Me, Ernie
Quit flapping your pie hole and produce the bet proof you said you have…Posted June 11, 2013 1:51 pm
This is an exploitative book… Sensationalized, sloppy, and inaccurate, it was probably written in 2 weeks. Getting Tyson to write the forward shows me he was getting a cut—and you know—since Tyson quit boxing he has been finding various ways to exploit his fame for money. There are plenty of tawdry business people who will take advantage of this fact.Posted June 11, 2013 1:36 pm
Watch Holyfield from the early 90′s and Tyson from the 80′s and then watch this fight between the two of them- it’s sad. You’ll notice two fighters passed their best fighting it in front of an audience who most believe these two are at the peak of their powers but only because most have short term memory. Sad. It was really a horrible fight when considering what they both used to be like. But that’s boxing. That’s life.Posted June 11, 2013 1:28 pm