The process is the way it is for a reason…
The present process exists so friends and acquaintances of powerful people can be professional judges. That makes bribing the judges easier.Posted October 3, 2013 5:14 pm
The amateurs are just as bad…. I attended 8 Olympic shows at London 2012 and there were some rotten scores by the judges (yes, computerised systems can be affected, if you know what to do or Not to do) in both the men’s and women’s matches, including the Gold Medal bouts. It totally ruined what was one of the best boxing events I’ve attended. The atmosphere was great, the arena perfect for boxing, but there was a stench of something not quite right in some of the bouts.
I actually agree with JOSEPH HERON….. I don’t think pro judges are corrupt per se, but a sizeable amount are INCOMPETENT, some leaning towards the house fighter and others seriously DO NOT have the first idea of how to score a fight.
If these guys are monitored and evaluated properly after all their performances by the commissions, it would be quite clear who are the rotten apples.
It may well be worth some site like BoxRec to use their info to tabulate some type of table as to judges performance guides. Which judges are scoring rounds to the wrong guy against the general consensus.
They then need to be brought to account and explain why they scored the rounds like they have. It’s the only way to make any progress in judging.
To be honest we’ll still have this same debate next year and the year after as no one is prepared to change this process.Posted October 2, 2013 3:46 am
Talking about dodgy officials, one major star, now retired had the same referee ref EIGHT CONSECUTIVE Title fights of his, I think between 2001 and 2002!!!!
I couldn’t believe it, but I had noticed the same ref again and again for this boxer! So I checked this out on BoxRec to confirm my memory was correct………
I can’ t name the boxer or the ref as I tried to reply to I think it was Hidalgo a few days back, but ESB would not print this!!!!
This sport is rotten to the core!Posted October 2, 2013 3:34 am
logic…, CJ Ross both penalized and gifted so called “A” side fighters. There’s no real method to her madness.
If you try to draw a pattern from an official’s previous fights you end up letting coincidence tell you how they’re going to score a fight. CJ Ross has her head up her behind … and always had it up there.
Even if you try to make Canelo to win, you don’t draw attention to yourself by calling a fight like that a draw. If the fight were closer, then call it a draw. If Floyd wins a squeaker, give the fight to Canelo. That’s the way crooks usually do it … and it makes more sense than what she did … turn in a ridiculous scorecard.Posted October 2, 2013 2:28 am
Chavez jr is the 1 who doesnt deserve another fight….cant wait until .GGG, Quillin, Ward or Froch end this waste of spacePosted October 2, 2013 12:42 am
Tark, don’t worry about it.
Denkins may have been a “fight the trend” type ref. Our respected insider will warn you of any such anomalies ahead of time, just as he says he knew beforehand CJ Ross was going to score May/Canelo a draw because she “penalizes the A-side fighter” so as to honorably not be influenced by the star which was of course Canelo – I mean May. I kid you not, he just said that.
But better not complain or you fans will destroy boxing. He will explain exactly how one day.
But there is no corruption in boxing.Absolutely none. He can garantee you that because he is an is insider, remember?
Hey, its me ernie ,shouldn’t you be giving some of that love to THIS dude?
BPosted October 1, 2013 11:51 pm
TARK: “It could be gamblers… It could be the promoter… It could be one of the boxer’s managers… It could be a member of the boxing commission who is doing a friend a favor in appointing the judges he wants… It could even be a rich relative of one of the boxers.
There are a lot of dogs in the hunt… You can’t assume it’s the promoter — because any dishonest person with something to gain could try to sway the odds in his favor by bribing 2 or 3 judges.”
That’s been my primary point the entire time. It’s the same motivation everyone else has in trying to alter or affect the outcome of every big money making sport…not just boxing.
But for some reason, boxing fans seem to resort to the same reaction when dealt with a controversial decision.Posted October 1, 2013 6:09 pm
Herron says.., “Tearing down the current promoters of the sport won’t solve anything.”
I’m not talking about destroying promoters.. We have great promoters but we need fresh blood and an end to the monopolies that exist.. Fighters and managers being frozen out if they don’t sign.. Too much inbreeding creates corruption.Posted October 1, 2013 6:05 pm
Herron asks.., “Who do you think would be doing the corrupting?”
Many people have reasons to want a boxer to gain an advantage.
It could be gamblers… It could be the promoter… It could be one of the boxer’s managers… It could be a member of the boxing commission who is doing a friend a favor in appointing the judges he wants… It could even be a rich relative of one of the boxers.
There are a lot of dogs in the hunt… You can’t assume it’s the promoter — because any dishonest person with something to gain could try to sway the odds in his favor by bribing 2 or 3 judges.Posted October 1, 2013 5:54 pm
TARK: “I said some boxing judges are corrupt and you assume I’m saying the people who run boxing are tampering with the scoring process…
How do arrive at that from what I said??????”
It was assumed that promoters would have the most to gain if their fighters were victorious, hence the overwhelming response of most fight fans who believe that promoters are behind an alleged corrupt ringside judge.
If you really think there are some corrupt judges, who do you think would be doing the corrupting? What would be a judge’s motivation? As it is, they don’t make very much money doing this and are either retired or have a primary source of income.Posted October 1, 2013 5:27 pm
Why shouldn’t this scandal be the catalyst for change. More people need to speak up.Posted October 1, 2013 5:21 pm
I don’t understand why the commissions don’t get retired fighters to judge and score bouts at the world class level.
They’re already in the registry…why not reach out to people who know what they’re actually looking at?Posted October 1, 2013 5:14 pm
The only thing a scandal would do at this point is damage the sport even further.
I’m sorry, but unless there is a fight league, in which the sport is governed by one sanctioning body like the NFL, NBA, and MLB, a tearing down the current promoters of the sport won’t solve anything.
Every young and ambitious promoter will ultimately turn to the business models already set in place. Monopolizing talent, keeping fight cards in house, and lobbying to the major networks for preference.Posted October 1, 2013 5:12 pm
A major scandal in Boxing could be just what it needs… A major scandal would help Boxing in a big way… A major scandal would send people to jail and show others there are consequences for corruption.
Needed reforms would be implimented. Better judging would result. Boxing monopolies would be broken down and more promoters would get a foothold.. There’s too much inbreeding right now.. Too much old boy networking.. Too much rigging of the selection of judges.. Too many potentially great judges frozen out of Boxing by insiders.Posted October 1, 2013 4:59 pm
Herron.., “What we’re talking about is the possibility of those who run the sport tampering with the scoring process of boxing.”
I’m not talking about that.. Who’s talking about it?????
I said some boxing judges are corrupt and you assume I’m saying the people who run boxing are tampering with the scoring process…
How do arrive at that from what I said??????
And Cheato wasn’t an isolated fool… He was a cheater and his trainer or trainers were cheaters… It’s hard to cheat without cohorts.Posted October 1, 2013 4:44 pm
ScotlandPosted October 1, 2013 4:35 pm
Where are you from, Pissed?Posted October 1, 2013 4:32 pm
Maybe in America Joseph, but not where I come from.Posted October 1, 2013 4:24 pm
BTW Joseph, thanks for considering looking into judges traits. Could be handy for a bit of betting.Posted October 1, 2013 4:23 pm
Joseph, I am not sure what you mean by the red badge of courage for boxing fans? What are you referring too exactly? I can guarantee you that boxing fans are not the only sport fans to smell corruption and dig out the truth after being told by so-called insiders/journalists that there is no corruption.Posted October 1, 2013 4:12 pm
TARK: “There is NOTHING intentionally bad about Boxing…
Are drugs intentionally bad because Victor Conte pushed PED’s???
Are trainers intentionally bad because Cheato used loaded gloves???
Are steroids intentionally bad because athletes misuse them???
Are investment bankers intentionally bad because some went to jail???”
What we’re talking about is the possibility of those who run the sport tampering with the scoring process of boxing.
That’s totally different than an isolated, selfish, fool making the decision to try and cheat the system like Margarito.
Not even in the same ballpark.
You make a lot of loaded statements that aren’t relevent just to try and support your argument…but, I’ve become used to it, TARK.Posted October 1, 2013 4:06 pm
Tark: “I don’t know what sport you’re talking about… Boxing survives it all.”
Brother, I hope boxing never decides to test your theory.
I know that boxing is still alive and well around the world…including the US. It’s just not a major sport in America any longer.
Yes, it’s still a money maker at the highest level of the sport. But boxing has turned into a sport of “The have’s and Have not’s”.Posted October 1, 2013 4:01 pm
Pissedawthetime: “Why not compile a list of incompetent judges, using your journalistic ability and insider knowledge, for us so we can be ready for incompetent scoring?”
if you guys read my May/Canelo pre fight analysis, I actually warned everyone that CJ Ross would incorrectly score the fight a draw.
She is a “fight the trends” kind of judge who indirectly penalizes the A side fighter because she tries way too hard not to be influenced by the star of the promotion.
She doesn’t realize that it causes her to become biased the other way.
That’s what we’re dealing with here…these judges will often make their jobs more complicated than they really are.
I will make it a point to look for trends in judging and officiating to let the fans know what they’re getting themselves into.
Great suggestion.Posted October 1, 2013 3:54 pm
It’s Me, Ernie
Are posters @ ESB intentionally liars since Tard is one?…Posted October 1, 2013 3:54 pm
Herron, “I would not continue to support a product that I knew was intentionally bad.”
There is NOTHING intentionally bad about Boxing…
Are drugs intentionally bad because Victor Conte pushed PED’s???
Are trainers intentionally bad because Cheato used loaded gloves???
Are steroids intentionally bad because athletes misuse them???
Are investment bankers intentionally bad because some went to jail???Posted October 1, 2013 3:49 pm
Herron.., “Not in America. It’s considered to be a fringe sport in the US…and it woud never survive proven corruption at this time. maybe in other parts of the world, but not in America.”
America is not the be-all and end-all of Boxing anymore… Boxing has become a major global sport.. BUT we DO have the BEST fighter in the world, who brings an additional billion dollars to Nevada’s economy during fight week.. HBO and SHOWTIME support major boxing shows many times a year.. The Staples Center still gets sold out for major Boxing events.. MSG still gets sold out..
That is not fringe revenues… That is not 2nd tier promotion… Not when some of the world’s best paid athletes do a lot of their fighting in The United States of America. Boxing is getting stronger and has even appeared on network television for the first time in years.
I don’t know what sport you’re talking about… Boxing survives it all.Posted October 1, 2013 3:42 pm
I watch because it is not all corrupt. That’s just a daft question. You’re flogging a dead horse now.
Why not compile a list of incompetent judges, using your journalistic ability and insider knowledge, for us so we can be ready for incompetent scoring?
ThanksPosted October 1, 2013 3:25 pm
TARK: “Herron.., YOU’RE DREAMING… Boxing has always survived, even when it was outlawed in many states of the United States.. Boxing survived everything in the past and will survive anything now.
It’s a global sport and bigger than ever. Worldwide revenues increase each year. It’s a major sport. It’s no 2nd tier sport like beach volleyball.”
Not in America. It’s considered to be a fringe sport in the US…and it woud never survive proven corruption at this time. maybe in other parts of the world, but not in America.Posted October 1, 2013 3:22 pm
Well, TARK…I guess you and I are different.
because I would not continue to support a product that I knew was intentionally bad.Posted October 1, 2013 3:19 pm
Herron.., “Why would you waste your time watching, supporting, and discussing a sport that you “know” to be corrupt.”
Because I love Boxing… I have friends in prison. They’re great people who made human mistakes. I love Boxing as well. I’m not a fickle friend.Posted October 1, 2013 3:10 pm
Herron.., YOU’RE DREAMING… Boxing has always survived, even when it was outlawed in many states of the United States.. Boxing survived everything in the past and will survive anything now.
It’s a global sport and bigger than ever. Worldwide revenues increase each year. It’s a major sport. It’s no 2nd tier sport like beach volleyball.Posted October 1, 2013 3:07 pm
I am going to pose this question to all of you once again:
Why would you waste your time watching, supporting, and discussing a sport that you “know” to be corrupt.
I wouldn’t.Posted October 1, 2013 3:05 pm
Pissedawthetime: “So nobody in boxing has never received a bribe in its entire history? OK then, if you say so. IMO humble opinion, you must either be extremely incredulous or you have some sort of hidden agenda or God knows.”
Brother, how did you deduce that assessment from viewing all of my recent posts?
Every sport has been the victim of greed and corruption in many documented cases. Not just boxing.
But boxing fans are the only ones who carry it around like a red badge of courage. For the health of the sport, it has to stop.Posted October 1, 2013 3:02 pm
TARK and Old Yank,
Of course there has been many documented cases of corruption in every sport…especially boxing.
But, we’re just going to have to agree to disagree on the current state of judging.
Has it happened before…yes.
Is it happening today…no.
Every promoter is aware of the consequences of tampering with the scoring process.
You’re wrong about being able to survive anything…maybe in the past when Boxing was still one of America’s major pasttimes…but not now.
With the way the social media has evolved and the alternatives in sports entertainment, boxing could never survive a tumor as big a proven corrupt judge.
Every promoter and commission member understands this.Posted October 1, 2013 2:56 pm
This is the last time I will ever address you on this site, because it’s not worth my time.
I like conversing with gents like TARK, Old Yank, and pretty much everyone else on this site.
Although we disagree from time to time, I recognize that they are knowledgeable and insightful fight fans and I enjoy chatting with them.
But, I can’t say the same for you…you provide no insight into the sport and are the biggest pseudo intellectual I think I’ve ever met on ESB. You know nothing about boxing and I think most on ESB recognize that.
Good luck!!Posted October 1, 2013 2:50 pm
Herron says.., “Everyone from the biggest promoters to the commission members to the local club fighters agree that boxing would not be able to survive a huge detriment like proof of tampering with scorecards or judges.”
That’s complete foolishness. Boxing will survive ANYTHING.. I’ve talked to scores of managers, trainers, boxers, commission members, promoters, referees, judges, etc., who know “old boy” and “old girl” relationships involving favoritism, cheating, bribery, and payoffs are a fact of life in professional boxing. It’s better than it was 50 years ago. Not every judge is dirty. Not every judge is corruptible. Not every fight is fixed. Not every horrendous decision shoved down our throats arises from cheating. Some judges actually DO stink.
But corruption cannot kill Boxing… Boxing is here to stay.
Obviously some ridiculous decisions are created at by blind, stupid, and incompetent judges. However, some decisions, by some of the same judges you see over and over again, are simply corrupt. Like I said, if human beings could bring everyone to justice there would be no need for Hell. Smart criminals cover their misdeeds extremely well and are seldom caught. Unless somebody makes an egregious mistake…corrupt boxing judges will never be caught.
I’ve known many crooked business people in my day. I’ve lodged dozens of complaints with regulators and legal authorities. I’ve seen some arrested and their businesses shut down. I’ve never seen one go to jail. They pay a fine and don’t admit guilt. There’s not enough time, human resources, or money, to go after all the crooked folks and bring them to justice. That’s a huge advantage for the enterprising crook. Corrupt boxing judges are low priority criminals.. They won’t be caught.. They’ll stay on the championship fight list.Posted October 1, 2013 2:26 pm
Not even a hint of smoke here. The Mark Gastineau/Derrick Dukes bout was not fixed…until we learned that it was fixed! The 60 Minutes piece found several other fighters that Gastineau fought between 1991 and 1994 who confessed to taking a dive.
Again and AGAIN and AGAIN…it takes about 10 to 20 years for these confessions to come out.
All that Joseph Herron claims are barriers to fixing a bout today were in place in the early 1990′s when Gastineau was involved in several fixed bouts. It would have been a death knell then as it is now in Herron’s eyes. We can only wonder how many fixes actually take place for each confession we later get. Certainly every fixed bout does not get exposed. None of them get exposed in real time.
Look, we have two major US cable networks showing a couple of cards a month. This is the high-profile side of the sport in the USA where all the big money action is. In Eastern Europe the “businessmen” in control of boxing make Arum look like a saintly school girl. Huge money is concentrated in a few hands and that is the only formula or fodder necessary for hanky-panky.
There is ZERO probability that we will fail to learn of fixed bouts taking place under our noses right now – we need only wait 10 to 20 years for a born-again like Gastineau to confess; or someone on his deathbed to confess; or some tell-all novel from a big ego to let loose.
I remember the naysayers when I began addressing the illegal enhancing epidemic in boxing. I remember being told how I should be more responsible in tossing around allegations. I remember how long it took for the sport to wake to the stupidity of the testing it was using. I remember how long it took for fans and pundits to come around to seeing the epidemic.
Houston, we’ve got a problem. Where there is smoke in the appearance of incompetency in boxing decisions there is fire. And that fire is corruption!Posted October 1, 2013 2:22 pm
Ahem….Posted October 1, 2013 2:19 pm
*everPosted October 1, 2013 2:02 pm
So nobody in boxing has never received a bribe in its entire history? OK then, if you say so. IMO humble opinion, you must either be extremely incredulous or you have some sort of hidden agenda or God knows.
PeacePosted October 1, 2013 2:01 pm
It’s Me, Ernie
The only thing square about boxing is the ring…Posted October 1, 2013 1:50 pm
Supreme Court: “Joseph Herron is such a fool!
My work and insight is respected enough, that I could write for any major boxing website. Any editor that I see at major events would be fortunate to have my writing, insight, understanding of the sweet science.
I choose to write on ESB as my primary platform, because of the traffic. Most boxing websites can’t compete with the number of eyes that follow ESB on a daily basis.
But, I don’t have to.Posted October 1, 2013 1:17 pm
Pissedawthetime: “Yo Joe, stop shillin, start chillin. If judges aren’t trained properly, well then I’d say THAT is CORRUPT.”
By definition, corruption implies intent. That’s where you’re wrong. No judge or promoter or commission member has ill intent. No one in boxing is trying to screw any fighter out of their potential earnings.Posted October 1, 2013 1:12 pm
Old Yank: “I prefer that we avoid character smack-down and stick to what we agree and disagree on. I believe it to be foolish to see boxing as above “altering” a bout through the corruption of officials. Indeed the implication is clear for how I see Joseph Herron’s opinions on this subject fitting into my opinion. But there are civil ways of making a point, inferences included, and uncivil ways. Let’s keep it civil.”
Well said, Old Yank.
With that said, I believe that world class boxing is the highest form of entertainment, just behind music.
But it’s entertainment. Most people don’t realize that it’s not run like other sports…it’s run more like the music industry.
Most boxing writers don’t even realize this…and most are too critical as a result.
I have a great respect for anyone who takes their personal time in trying to promote the sweet science…but ask yourself, is it really promoting the sport when you are looking for corruption that isn’t there?
It’s a sport.Posted October 1, 2013 1:07 pm
Supreme Court: “I hereby predict that from now on, Stevenson will be fed Tomato cans. He is going to follow the pathways left by Jermain Taylor, Kelly Pavlik, Sergio Martinez, Lucian Bute.”
Further evidence that you don’t know what the f*** you’re talking about.
Listen to tonight’s show…Stevenson’s trainer, Sugar Hill, will be on the air and talk about Adonis’ path of progress and his plans for 2014.
Adonis wants to be a star and the first unified Light Heavyweight Champion since Roy Jones.
Everyone at HBO wants this as well.
Because of my PR work with many fighters and promoters, I’m not treated by most as an intrusive writer or journalist, I’m treated like an insider.
I’m giving this knowledge to the fans…they deserve to know how strong the sport of boxing is.
Guys, boxing is alive and well…without fixed fights and corrupt judges.
Networks are holding promoters’ feet to the fire and forcing their hands to make the best fights possible for the fans.Posted October 1, 2013 1:02 pm
IN OVER ITS 100 YEAR OLD HISTORY,BOXING TODAY IS AT ITS LOWEST.Posted October 1, 2013 11:15 am
I prefer that we avoid character smack-down and stick to what we agree and disagree on. I believe it to be foolish to see boxing as above “altering” a bout through the corruption of officials. Indeed the implication is clear for how I see Joseph Herron’s opinions on this subject fitting into my opinion. But there are civil ways of making a point, inferences included, and uncivil ways. Let’s keep it civil.
Puff pieces coming from what some of us view as a foolish perspective have their place. After all, bubblegum music sold like hotcakes in the 1960’s. It all has its place.
Now if it were to be discovered that a writer was putting out puff pieces in exchange for access to interviews, steak dinners, invitations to parties, ring-side seats and potentially more obvious payola, then that would be a different matter. Such a writer would deserve all the character-smack down fans could toss at him.Posted October 1, 2013 11:08 am
testPosted October 1, 2013 11:01 am
the Judges know damn well who the house fighter is and who their Boses the Promoters and Boxing Organization want to win.. so there is a pressure on the judge to give a round to the house fighter if they want to get future fights to Make $$$. So if at all possible a round will be given to the house fighter.. In this case everyone including the Judges knew the house fighter was Chavez Jr. and Vera was just his door mat to whipe his feet on his way to Mega Paydays.. So unless Chavez Jr. was killed in a round, they gave the round to the house fighter..Posted October 1, 2013 7:11 am
Well, the crooked judges know they can get by with bad decisions………They and the promoters have zero respect for the fans. I do not plan to watch another Chavez fight. Chavez is a spoiled brat! Vera worked so hard, but…………….Posted October 1, 2013 2:29 am
It’s Me, Ernie
I see now the lie changed a bit, it used to be you trained many champions, what happened, are you starting to possibly get a conscience?…Posted October 1, 2013 2:12 am
Yo Joe, stop shillin, start chillin.
If judges aren’t trained properly, well then I’d say THAT is CORRUPT.Posted October 1, 2013 1:40 am
Professional Boxing is rife with bribery anc corruption.. It’s fairly easy to influence the outcome of a boxing matches by paying off judges.
Many fights are close enough for crooked judges to control the decision.
Take Sergio Martinez’s last fight.. And his first fight with Williams.. Take Matthysse’s fights with Alexander and Judah.. Take Pacquiao’s first 3 fights with Marquez.. Take Adamek’s fights with Cunningham and Chambers.. Take the Hopkins-Taylor fights.. The Alvarez-Trout fight … and so on.
Being that so many fights are “closely” fought—it pays to corrupt the process and bribe judges to push close fights in your direction. When there’s a way to beat ANY system, many people will try—and some will succeed. There would be no need for Hell if human beings could bring everyone to justice … It’s just not going to happen.Posted October 1, 2013 1:31 am
Tark and Old Yank and the rest are definitely not BSing about corruption rampant in business, and knowing how filthy corporations like Microsoft & Monsanto budget for shills to influence the credulous masses in their favor, why is it so hard to believe a rich scumbag promoter like _ _ skims a little off the top to finance his own “opinion leader”.Posted October 1, 2013 1:27 am
the only good thing about this fight was that it was a Rich Well Connected Mexican screwing a Poor unconnected Mexican.. so they have no one to blame or point fingers at but themselves.. same sht when Delahoya another Mexican fed 140lb Josesito Lopez to Canelo to pad his laughable Record..Posted September 30, 2013 10:56 pm
You can always buy a judge off one way or another.
Like this one time when I got arrested on 23 counts of gross indecency, possession of illegal narcotics, and penetration of a minor with a pineapple.
That cost me $15,000 to get out of a jail sentence and I am still not allowed within 500 metres if Macauly Culkin.
Tarktalk biatches.Posted September 30, 2013 10:32 pm
Back to the judges…..last time…. Most get little training and react and score based on volume from the crowd WHICH is about 60 percent these days. Now we have a few that know what is a scored punch and follow the rules if they are not distracted from a beverage and that is about 30 percent who also have a winner in mind, as we do, prior to round 1. They most likely are favored by the favorite fighter going into judge selections.
CASE CLOSED IN MY VIEW PEOPLEPosted September 30, 2013 10:22 pm
Simple……Yes the judges are PAID OFF EACH AND EVERY NIGHT AFTER WORK.
I believe the judges were paid off. That makes the sport corrupt.Posted September 30, 2013 9:40 pm
Joseph, there can only be FOUR FOR LIFE BROTHER….WOOOOOOOOAHPosted September 30, 2013 9:40 pm
Gentlemen it may not always be a blatent fix but an obvious Bias that leads to these insane decisions.. it’s obvious that Chavez Jr. was in this fight as the expected winner by the Judges because they see him as the obvious one who should win so anything he did was magnified and anything Vera did was overlooked…Posted September 30, 2013 9:09 pm
@Herron – fair point. I can`t explain the Pacman-Bradley one.
If anything I think it might have been something of a reaction to Pacman getting all the close decisions vs Marquez, combined with Pacquaio only fighting in spurts, and him fighting an American in America (a number of foreign fighters have been on the wrong end against a US fighter in the US – Campillo, Abril, Lara, Matthysse x 2, Khan, Lewis, Kotelnik etc).Posted September 30, 2013 9:02 pm
Again…”the fix” is not something we get a confession about in real time. However, when patient we learn about “the fix” about 10 to 20 years after the fact. Inevitably some party to the fix either can’t hold back from boasting about it or someone’s conscience gets the best of them.
TARK is 100% correct. As we read these posts someone in boxing is hatching a business scheme that will provide an illegal advantage.
Charming men with a smile on their face and extended handshake can fool the best of us, never mind the most naive among us like Joseph Herron.
Make no mistake about it, just as we learned that Mark Gastineau’s first pro bout was a fix, we will eventually learn of some bout in recent times that also was a fix. It is only a matter of waiting for the boastful ego to erupt or a dying cancer patient to confess. But some confession will come.Posted September 30, 2013 8:46 pm
Google — old yank judge or be judgedPosted September 30, 2013 8:34 pm
I don’t know if you’ve been in the business world much Herron.., Many businessmen I’ve met in the financial sector and broader corporate sector are flat out dishonest.., They will do anything and everything to push their horse forward if it doesn’t risk going to jail.. When you make it clear you won’t do business in a crooked or unfair manner they look at you like you were born on Mars, and won’t do business with you … There’re enough dishonest people to do business with that they don’t have to.Posted September 30, 2013 8:25 pm
Do you mind explaining that logic to Manny Pacquiao after getting jobbed in the Bradley fight?Posted September 30, 2013 8:22 pm
@Herron…I think you are right in as much as there aren`t judges and promoters getting together in smoky backrooms doing deals, having cigars and going “Mwahahhahahahhhah”.
But there are a lot of crazy decisions, and they always always go against the Vera type guy. Against the Glen Johnson types.
One way or another (crowd, expectation, desire to get future fights etc) judges are being influenced to favour the “money” fighters – and if it were entirely randomly bad subjective judging, it wouldn`t be so consistently in one direction.Posted September 30, 2013 8:16 pm
This is a subjective process, scored by people who have probably never studied the sport from a trainer or prizefighter.
Dude, you should know this, man. There are so many factors that point to this not even being a possiblity…like matchmaking, for starters.
Why do promoters even bother with matchmaking if they can rig or fix fights?
Also, why bother keeping fights in house or the same promotional banner if you can just rig a fight?
Man, this is a complete waste of time…Here I’m trying to tell you guys that this just doesn’t happen and you guys are treating me like I have no idea what I’m talking about.
Screw this…you guys can be as delusional as you want to be…but, there’s absolutely no point in supporting a sport that you know to be corrupt.
Why waste your time then, guys? I’m done concerning this topic…I know the truth…that’s enough for me, I guess.Posted September 30, 2013 8:13 pm
Herron.., “Some of these judges are way out in left field when it comes to scoring a prize fight.”
I could produce better judges if it were my job to recruit, test, and train candidates for judging spots… The reason these judges exist, is there’s no process for producing good judges like there is for producing good boxers.
The system exists like it is because the promoters want it like that… They want to control “World Champions” and “Title Fights.” And the system that exists allows them to corrupt the process.Posted September 30, 2013 8:12 pm
@Herron.., Proving that a judge is corrupt is almost impossible.. How are you going to do it??? They would be stupid if they interacted with promoters in any way that could be detected or linked.. They have 3rd parties hook up with the judges and arrange the pay-outs..
After the Williams-Lara fight everyone knew Williams was beaten, even Williams… He looked so downcast that the promoter immediately started telling him he’s a bad muther.. even getting up into the ring after Lara had dominated and told Williams what a bad muther he was.. Obviously the judges awarded the fight to Williams.. It wasn’t a close fight … It was dominant enough for Lara that the judges were “disciplined” by the boxing commission … for show..
For nothing else of course. They wanted to make it look like, when judges don’t score correctly they take action … Give me a break.Posted September 30, 2013 8:05 pm
I used to love the horseman on NWA or WCW.
My favorite was always Arn Anderson…the enforcer!!Posted September 30, 2013 7:50 pm
I go over a lot of what plays in the minds of the judges at ringside and their process throughout the fight on my show…the embedded player is on the front page still.
If you really want to learn more about the entire process, you should listen to the show.
Ronnie Shields is on at the 30 minute mark and talks about the bad decision as well.
Check it out!!Posted September 30, 2013 7:27 pm
you’re comments really surprise me.
If you are really in the boxing industry like you say you are, well then you should know what we’re dealing with here.
Some of these judges are way out in left field when it comes to scoring a prize fight.
Guys, everyone within the industry doesn’t even think about fixing fights. It’s the furthest thing from their minds.
TARK, you know this, man.
Look, I have been trying to reassure everyone that it just doesn’t happen, and I been getting drilled for my efforts.
This is crazy!!Posted September 30, 2013 7:19 pm
I`m not sure I`d go so far as to say that someone visits the judges with a bag full of cash, but there is an incentive for them to hand down decisions that get them another fight – they enjoy the big fight nights, the pay, the hospitality etc.
Get a reputation for scoring to the house fighter, and promoters with the house fighter are going to look to have you judge their fights.
They need to remove this incentive – take the judges out of the atmosphere, don`t fly them to the venue – let them judge from TV feed somewhere.
Ridiculous!Posted September 30, 2013 5:44 pm
Old Yank: “The Vera/Chavez decision screwed the pooch! Fans are ticked off! Live with it!”
Brother, you suffer from comprehension deficiency!!
I encouraged everyone on last night’s show to make their opions known on the boxing forums because boxing is the only sport in existence in which the fans are the real bosses. Their voice actually makes a difference.
I scored the fight 6 rounds to 4 in favor of Vera…I think two of those fight cards were ridiculous and it really detracts from the great performance of Bryan Vera.
What I am opposed to is the collective voice of fight fans losing credibility by espousing this ridiculous idea that the fight was fixed.
it wasn’t fixed. It was a product of inept judging. The two judges who scored the bout 8-2 and 7-3 should be suspended or fired.
But to say the fight was fixed is ridiculous.Posted September 30, 2013 5:24 pm
You must not be a very proficient journalist because you suffer from selective comprehension.
I stated, “you and a lot of fans”…does that mean everyone who is a fan of the sport? Does that mean the great majority of fans? Does that mean only one percent of all fight fans?
It just means that you and a lot of fans who espouse this rubbish of tainted scorecards sound like Jesse Ventura on “Conspiracy Theory”.
Am I wasting my time here, trying to discuss this with you, Old Yank?
Are you going to read my words with a neutral and open mind, or are you consistently going to read them with an agenda?Posted September 30, 2013 5:05 pm
LOL…that’s funny, Old Yank!!
You’re one of those guys who falls into the trap thinking that it’s a more enlightened way of thinking if you’re overtly scrutinizing when the situation doesn’t call for it.
There’s a fine line between negativity and examination.
It’s boxing…not Washington D.C., brother.
This is ultimately entertainment. A lot of writers make the mistake of taking away from the entertainment aspect of boxing, while trying to create a story.Posted September 30, 2013 4:51 pm
There is critical writing and there is cheerleading with a pen. One is fluff the other journalism. So please feel free to “laugh at writers like [me]”. I did not take bubblegum music seriously in the 60’s and I’ll be damned if I’ll take it seriously now.Posted September 30, 2013 4:42 pm
I have a ton of respect for pretty much every fight fan on ESB…that’s why I devote a lot of my time chatting with everyone here.
Every boxing scribe should talk to the real fans of the sport and discuss important issues of boxing so no misconceptions run rampant…like tainted scoring in boxing…it’s a huge misconception.
There are a lot of incompetent judges in the sport but there are no fixed fights in boxing.Posted September 30, 2013 4:18 pm
I don’t try and make fight fans out to be any more or less than what they are…I am one of the biggest fans of boxing you will ever speak to…that’s why I dedicate so much of my time to promoting the sport and not tearing it down like a lot of writers.
Yes, promoters will often pit their unproven fighters in the ring with tomato cans just to get them started in their new professions. That’s nothing new.
But, I question your allegiance to the sport if you consistently look for reasons that aren’t there to tear down the sport that you supposedly love.Posted September 30, 2013 4:15 pm
Joseph Herron — “Look at the huge amount of scrutiny that they’re receiving right now.”
Yes! LOOK AT IT! Don’t paint fans out to be a collection of dolts stuck in some fantasy novel! Don’t expect them to roll over when you tell them to deny their lying eyes. They know what they are looking at.
Gastenaux (sp? the former football player) admitted that his opponent in his debut as a pro was paid to lose. I’ve got a mental block on the featherweight who claimed that he was paid 14 times to lose (if you force me to look him up I will). In George Foreman’s comeback his first opponent now claims that he took a dive.
Yes, it takes a little time for this stuff to come out. And I am certain that the corruption of today will have its fair share of confessions of conscience tomorrow.
Commissions, fighters, promoters, sanctioning folks and more are all corruptible. It is happening NOW and will be confessed to “tomorrow”. Wait and see.Posted September 30, 2013 3:12 pm
LOL…you weren’t exposing a shady congressman passing an unfair bill that could potentially affect the lives of millions.
This is a sport…for entertainment value only.
LOL…I laugh at writers like you. This is a sport…for the entertainment of fight fans.
But I agree, there needs to be one governing body that oversees the entire sport…just like the NFL, MLB, and NBA.
Cheating is cheating. If you get caught cheating in one state, then all of the other states should honor that.
With that said, the commissions of combat sports are doing a much better job of ensuring the safety of their athletes in contrast to what’s been going on in the NFL.
Look at the huge amount of scrutiny that they’re receiving right now.Posted September 30, 2013 2:57 pm
Lol…No, Virgil is a great guy.
I’m saying he has no idea what went on at ringside. He’s merely speculating.
But, he’ like that…do you remember his comments after the Lara/Angulo fight, or before the Dallas/Matthysse bout?
That pretty much says it all.Posted September 30, 2013 2:40 pm
So are you saying Virgil is a liar?Posted September 30, 2013 2:37 pm
Joseph Herron — Corruption in the sport is corruption! Commissions, promoters and more.
Google, “The ABC’s of Margarito’s Texas License”. It is a fine, fine investigative article on what went down with Margarito’s license. I wrote it! I did the investigative journalism. To paraphrase one official at the ABC, “I did not know how we could have painted a better roadmap for Texas to deny Margarito’s license.”
And then New York went through some truly stupid crap about Margarito’s eye AFTER Arum had already reserved the date for Cotto/Margarito at the Garden and BEFORE he’d been licensed in NY. Only one NY State official had the courage to vote to deny Margarito’s license under the grounds that it had NOTHING to do with his eye/safety issues and EVERYTHING to do with NY needing to deny a license to a proven glove loader.
ONE man had the courage of his principles — ONE MAN!
This sport stinks of corruption!Posted September 30, 2013 2:36 pm
State Althletic Commissions are their own entities. That’s one of the problems with the organizational structure of boxing.
When Evander Holyfield was denied licensing in New York, he was granted a license in Texas.
One uniform sanctioning body needs to oversee the sport…this is nothing new. This debate has been ongoing since the late 50′s.
But that has absolutely nothing to do with the judging, scoring, or officiating.Posted September 30, 2013 2:35 pm
Pissedawthetime: “Check out Virgil Hunters’ comments about the fight.”
That’s how Vigil rolls…he always likes to look for that fly in the ointment. This is nothing new.
But it’s not true.
Think about this guys, why would you score a fight with a disparity of ridiculous proportions to bring scrutiny to your scorecard if you were trying to fix a fight?
It was mere incompetence.Posted September 30, 2013 2:30 pm
Check out Virgil Hunters’ comments about the fight.Posted September 30, 2013 2:25 pm
Joseph Herron — Do you know the details about what went down in order to Margarito to get a boxing license in Texas after his glove-loading suspension?
Let me assist you: EVERY professional license in Texas requires completing a “Disciplinary Questionnaire” — barber, plumber, architect and more, if ANY disciplinary history exists in Texas or ANY OTHER jurisdiction or licensing authority. The requirement for completing the questionnaire was inexplicably dropped for boxing applications (and remained in force for ALL OTHERS) a couple of weeks before Margarito applied in Texas. After Margarito was licensed, the disciplinary questionnaire was reinstated for boxing applications. And you ask, so what?
If no disciplinary questionnaire accompanies a license application in Texas then granting the decision to grant the license can be done by ONE administrative person in the licensing department. If a disciplinary questionnaire is attached it requires a majority vote of all on the licensing committee — a group decision.
Is it easier to bribe ONE person or an entire committee? Only ONE person made the licensing decision!
Willful ignorance or willful blindness are the only explanations that can be applied to those who deny corruption, bribery and worse THRIVES in boxing.Posted September 30, 2013 2:23 pm
You and a lot of other fans on this forum sound like Jesse Ventura in Conspiracy Theory.
If that were to come out…and trust me, it would…it always does…it would be the death of an already llimping sport.
Look, even the mob knew that you couldn’t get away with fixing the sport without it eventually surfacing. The mob knew that the fans would lose interest in the sport.
Promoters today use the same business models that the mob invented back in the 40′s and 50′s…they merely try to monopolize the talent.
I know there is evidence that this has happened in the past, and boxing is still suffering from court cases that happened in the late 50′s.
That’s how catastophic cheating is to any sport. Boxing wouldn’t dare shoot itself in the foot intentionally…it’s doing just fine unintentionally, especially with incompetent decisions like we just witnessed this past Saturday.Posted September 30, 2013 2:20 pm
I’m refering to the topic at hand.
There is no corruption in trying to fix fights and tamper with judging.
Promoters and managers will do whatever they can to try an monopolize talent. All sports organizations are guilty of this and it is definitely not exclusive to boxing.
I have been a big proponent of stating that all promoters are guilty of this…not just Bob Arum and Don King.
But, not promoters, managers, or anyone else affiliated with the sport attempts to fix the outcome of boxing.
Everyone associated with the sport realizes that it would be the death of boxing if that were to happen.Posted September 30, 2013 2:13 pm
Joseph Herron — I am sorry and with all due respect, the first rule when you dig yourself into a deep hole is to put down the shovel. Your latest post has only dug you deeper into that hole and is bordering on tying you the whipping post of apologist for corruption, incompetence, bribery, and more.
Are you prepared to argue that no law suit against King or Arum or promoters had a sliver of truth to it? “Hey hot prospect, take this envelop, hop into this limo and enjoy the heavenly, half-dressed spoils in the back seat. Want more and more if it? Sign this contract!”
And then the hot prospect finds out after-the-fact that the envelop full of money, the limo rental and the prostitutes are all deducted from his first purse!
The sport is ROTTEN TO THE CORE! There is no fiction in the minds of fans about it.
And the seedy dark alleys and seedy characters and worse all add to the entertainment value of the sport. Sometimes the “entertainment” value is a bit hard for fans to take’ leaving fans feeling ripped off. When the seedy side becomes a bit hard to take the voice of fans is necessary to bring the sport out of the cesspool and back into the sewer pipe.Posted September 30, 2013 1:55 pm
I don’t even know where to begin with your post, brother…you’re about as sharp as a marble.Posted September 30, 2013 1:51 pm
Fans should express their disdain for incompetent decision and everything else they don’t like about the sport…the promoters, commission members, fighters, managers, and trainers all realize that the fans are the bosses of boxing.
But, when fans start talking about corruption and fixed fights, their collective voice loses credibility…because it’s nonsense.
There’s no corruption in boxing when it comes to judges and the scoring process. But there are incompetent judges who need to either step down or be fired.
There’s nothing wrong with pointing out incompetence.
It’s greatly encouraged!!Posted September 30, 2013 1:46 pm
Hidalgo — Pro wrestling is both rigged and choreographed. The colloquial (urban) definition of “rigged” is a predetermined winner before the competition takes place. The “competition” in wrestling is choreographed and the winner is predetermined.
In any case my point was not about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It was about how corruption and incompetence in boxing are producing too many predetermined outcomes; yielding a very thin line between boxing and pro wrestling. In fact the only remaining difference between them might be that boxing fans don’t know that it is all predetermined where pro wrestling fans do.Posted September 30, 2013 1:43 pm
Obviously, the Chavez choo-choo train has derailed…except for chiuaua humping cholos like tumbo!! I’m sure if you polled all of Tumbo’s schytzophrenic personalities, the results of the chavez/vera farce would all in favor of la hija de la leyenda. More proof that this world is going to heck in a hand-basket….Posted September 30, 2013 12:31 pm
It is the thin line that retains the illusion that the entire sport is not rigged like pro wrestling.”
Old Yank, pro wrestling is not “rigged.” It is choreographed. It is a show. But as in any other sport wrestlers who become champions are generally the best of the lot, the biggest draws and moneymakers, and the ones with the most star potential. Top pro wrestlers get to where they are with hard work and dedication–just like any other top athlete. Pro wrestling isn’t for everyone, but there’s nothing faked or rigged about it. Wrestling fans aren’t stupid. They know the matches are scripted. They know what they are seeing and watching, but it’s the show they come for. A live pro wrestling match is a blast.
Anyways, think about it: If pro wrestling matches weren’t choreographed there would be so many serious injuries, maybe even deaths. These guys are incredibly huge, strong, gifted, and have the potential to be very dangerous. They are giant acrobats with amazing skills who have the ability to put serious hurt on an opponent in a hearbeat. Pro wrestling is not MMA and Boxing. There has to be more stricter controls because no one could survive the sport if there wasn’t. Even in MMA you don’t see guys allowed to leg-lock and opponent around his neck, or jump off a corner post and body slam him, or lift him up over his head and throw him across or out of the ring.
When pro wrestlers “fight” you get to watch an amazing combination of grace, strength, skill, athleticism, fighting ability, and showmanship. You get to see things that are legal only in this sport: headbutts, smashes, clubs, drops, “clotheslines,” etc. There are more legal kicks in pro wrestling than just about any other single martial art–many more than in MMA. But most importantly, the wrestling matches are all timed, choreographed, scripted–planned.
There’s nothing fake about pro wrestling. But either you like it or you don’t. Just like any other sport or form of entertainment.Posted September 30, 2013 12:23 pm
It’s not that this fight doesn’t reserve a rematch. It’s that Jr. doesn’t want to get beat up and humiliated, by a smaller guy, again.Posted September 30, 2013 12:04 pm
Maracho – Chavez Jr believing he can KO GGG, More proof that smokin Pot turns your brain to mush..Posted September 30, 2013 11:11 am
One last thought Joseph. Putting proven incompetent judges in place to score big fights is a form of corruption. If you can’t see that then you are the one who is ignorant.
I sincerely hope that you have enough clout as an ” insider ” to effect change in the judging system.
@OLD YANK – I agree with your sentiments but I don’t expect an apology from Mr Herron anytime soon.
PeacePosted September 30, 2013 11:10 am
Yeah remember: Chavez Jr. wants Golovkin at 168; thinks he can KO himPosted September 30, 2013 11:05 am
Of course this fight doesn’t deserve a rematch. Vera is not going ti knock out Chavez in the rematch neither.
BRING GGG VS CHAVEZ NOW!!!!!Posted September 30, 2013 10:39 am
Yep the casual fan can see the pro wrestling aura a mile away but the promoters and their networks are so greedy that they dont care to realize that this is the era of reality TV.Posted September 30, 2013 10:29 am
if a 154lb Vera C level Vera can bust up Chavez jr. like he did can you imagin what an Andre Ward, Froch, Kessler, Edison Miranda, Adonis Stevenson, would do to this Pot smoking cheating Bum?Posted September 30, 2013 10:14 am
Bob Arum and the HBO shills knew all Chavez Jr. had to do was show up for the fight and he’d leave with a win.. it was just a Farce to continue with the Chavez Jr. Hype Train..Posted September 30, 2013 10:04 am
I sed it b4..box in g is the new WWE..JCC JR n BOB ARUM r a disgrace 2 this once great sport..Vera put everything in2 this ,,4 montha of spartan training n won 7 of 10 rds..fights r now judged by who is the promoters house fighter,not what goes on in the ring…JCC JR disgraced his family name with his crybaby primadonna actions n Bob Arum is doing his best Vince McMahan impression..another reason to choose MMA over boxing…boxing is no longer a”sport”. It is now”sports entertainment”with the outcome pre-determinedPosted September 30, 2013 9:49 am
JR CHEESEBURGER and his team thought they would jerk Vera around by changing weight and other tactics to make him look foolish. The only fool I saw was JR and his fat ass acting like a cry baby before and after the fight.
WAR VERAPosted September 30, 2013 8:40 am
“Judges got it right! Boxer who rely in points ain’t winning the war just because you land more mini power shots and looks more flushy but the boxer who really land the more powerful shots and clean should win it especially if that boxer is going to KO the other fighter. Enough with Mayweather boring type of fighting. If every boxer follow Mayweather style then boxing will be dead because of this boring style!”
So you agree Vera should have won then? judging by Chavez’s face Vera landed the better shots.Posted September 30, 2013 8:07 am
Another top rank circus…..what’s next in the Bradley Marquez fight…a stoppage is neededPosted September 30, 2013 6:42 am
These judges are giving our sport a bad name, there should be a strict international training programme on how to judge/score a fight because right now its basically left to each judges personal taste/favouritism, that way if a judge was found out to be scoring a fight out of set rules then they could be put under official scrutiny and could be held officially accountable for their actions and fired,this would cut down on the dirty rats and get a more honest by the book judge taking up the position.Posted September 30, 2013 5:53 am
One fan who disagreed with the decision got into it with Chavez Jr’s camp. One of them pounded his face in with a can of Coors Light, breaking his nose. That’s some quality PR, good fan outreach.Posted September 30, 2013 4:11 am
Since we’re being subjective about powershots, the smaller man looked to be jolted back more but the bigger man’s face looked more injuredPosted September 30, 2013 3:54 am
It’s commonsense that those who run boxing are corrupt, as are the governments that protect them. Bob Arum and Don King and a whole bunch of major promoters, commissions, and sanctioning bodies have been busted for corruption time and again. Oscar is a sex and drug addict who has been to court for statutory rape while married several times and many boxing legends who fought under him have said he is and GBP are corrupt. The courts that protect Oscar are also all known to be corrupt judicial hellholes.Posted September 30, 2013 3:41 am
Havoc, you need to deal in facts and not your whimsical perceptions. Facts are Vera outlanded this prawn and should have got the UD. Perceptions are you’re deluded, but until we get your medical report it is still, just a perception. Get my drift, junior?Posted September 30, 2013 3:27 am
Judges got it right! Boxer who rely in points ain’t winning the war just because you land more mini power shots and looks more flushy but the boxer who really land the more powerful shots and clean should win it especially if that boxer is going to KO the other fighter. Enough with Mayweather boring type of fighting. If every boxer follow Mayweather style then boxing will be dead because of this boring style!Posted September 30, 2013 3:11 am
Bob Arum, “yesterday! I was lying. Today, I’m telling the truth!”Posted September 30, 2013 3:04 am
JOSEPH HERRON says,
One judge actually told me that he felt the losing fighter fought in a more amateurish and sloppy fashion although he outworked and outlanded the winning fighter.
If this is the case we need to retrain ALL judges and weed out the ones with opinions like this. they have NO BASIS in boxing!
Name and shame the b**t*rds!Posted September 30, 2013 3:01 am
Any chance we can get a monthly/quarterly judge watch rankings going? We can give points for good scoring and award penalty points for poor scoring and get some sort of ranking system going, which can be a decent gauge to alert us to poor officials or if the fix is in.Posted September 30, 2013 2:58 am
Y’ALL SO STUPID
Dionysus: “not buying it man, im sorry.”
That’s unfortunate, Dionysus. I have spoken with judges who actually have rewarded certain fighters victories that they didn’t deserve, in my opinion, because they merely favored their fight style.
One judge actually told me that he felt the losing fighter fought in a more amateurish and sloppy fashion although he outworked and outlanded the winning fighter.
That’s what we’re dealing with, brother. I don’t think you fully understand how some of these judges rationalize their scorecards. It boggles the mind. They often try to make it much more complicated than it really is.
Have a good evening, brother.Posted September 30, 2013 2:56 am
I knew Canelo’s and Chavez hype trained had their days numbered. Glad to see its over so i don’t have to listen their delusional fans anymore
Karma in all this. Keep beating small guys with 20+ pound advantages and both Canelo and Jr got their asses kicked by way smaller men
FIGHT GUYS YOUR SIZEPosted September 30, 2013 2:08 am
Dionysus: “not buying it man, im sorry.”
That’s unfortunate, Dionysus. I have spoken with judges who actually have rewarded certain fighters victories that they didn’t deserve, in my opinion, because they merely favored their fight style.
One judge actually told me that he felt the losing fighter fought in a more amateurish and sloppy fashion although he outworked and outlanded the winning fighter.
That’s what we’re dealing with, brother. I don’t think you fully understand how some of these judges rationalize their scorecards. It boggles the mind. They often try to make it much more complicated than it really is.
Have a good evening, brother.Posted September 30, 2013 1:59 am
I get what you are saying, but I still have common sense.Posted September 30, 2013 1:40 am
not buying it man, im sorry.Posted September 30, 2013 1:38 am
Also, Dionysus, the judges are influenced by the crowd as well.
Just like officials in other sports, the crowd greatly influence the impact of activity by the hometown or fan preferred fighter.Posted September 30, 2013 1:38 am
Dionysus: “Honestly, I don’t really think even the ones that look for the Harder shots would be offset so far off the mark. Not with Chavez throwing so little and Vera being the more pressing volume puncher in the fight in every round.”
You just used the most important words in the above mentioned post:
“Honestly, I don’t really think”
That’s the key. It’s a matter of opinion when judging a prizefight, and you’re treating it like it’s a matter of fact.
That’s the biggest quandary of judging a fight like Chavez/Vera. Are Chavez’s punches viewed as being that much more impactful than Vera’s?
Keep in mind that the judges are on the ring apron and feel the impact of the shots landed in the ring.Posted September 30, 2013 1:35 am
Honestly, I don’t really think even the ones that look for the Harder shots would be offset so far off the mark. Not with Chavez throwing so little and Vera being the more pressing volume puncher in the fight in every round.Posted September 30, 2013 1:29 am
You’re telling me to prove there is corruption with a set of score cards like that and i’m telling you to prove there isn’t.Posted September 30, 2013 1:25 am
Dionysus: “Guy, start explaining how 2 judges got it so wrong then, because you haven’t still yet. incompetence is no answer. And when you pay my cable bill you can feel free to influence me on what i should or shouldn’t watch, which by the way, for someone so worried about what’s killing the sport, You sure do say “why watch it” alot. Kinda like an oximoron, don’t you think?”
Just trying to point out the obvious…promoters and commissions know that if the fight fans think that there is corruption in the sport, they will stop watching.
I’m not asking you to abandon the sport that you love. I’m pleading with you logically.
It makes no sense for the promoters and commission members to rig the sport. Fans will eventually lose interest if they do.
Judging a fight is a subjective process…this is why I urge you to learn more about how a fight is scored.
If a judge perfers the harder more impactful shots to volume punching that aren’t having as much instantaneous affect, then they would prefer Chavez in the close, competitive rounds.
The emphasis in scoring a prizefight among the judges at ringside is clean, effective, and consequential punching. To what degree is the problem.
It’s up to the descretion of the individual judge.
It’s not uniform among judges…that’s part of the problem.Posted September 30, 2013 1:22 am
Dirrell did not beat Froch. He literally ran away or held for almost the entire fight.
I`ve no doubt Dirrell CAN beat Froch if he actually fought, but if he was awarded a world title for his gutless display- “jab the body once then run away and circle for the rest of the round” we just wouldn`t have a sport that is worth watching. You can`t outclass a guy from the other side of the ring.
Footwork to put you in a position to punch, or to counter, or avoid a punch is boxing. Literally running out of range before someone can get within 2 metres of you isn`t boxing.Posted September 30, 2013 1:21 am
Guy, start explaining how 2 judges got it so wrong then, because you haven’t still yet. incompetence is no answer. And when you pay my cable bill you can feel free to influence me on what i should or shouldn’t watch, which by the way, for someone so worried about what’s killing the sport, You sure do say “why watch it” alot. Kinda like an oximoron, don’t you think?Posted September 30, 2013 1:13 am
This is getting pointless. No matter how much evidence I give you regarding how wrong you are about this issue, you seem to be truly convinced that the sport is indeed corrupt.
There is a human element in every sport…boxing is no different.
The only thing I can recommend at this point is to educate yourself on how judges are appointed and how they actually score a prizefight.
If you do…and I hope that you do, you will realize that there is no corruption among judges in boxing…it’s just a flawed process without a standard practice.
I am a boxing insider and i know that there is no conscious effort to screw any fighter out of their income or their careers.
And if you truly believe that the outcomes are pre-determined, well then there really is no reason to watch or be passionate about the product any longer.Posted September 30, 2013 1:06 am
I could have not watched the fight and guessed better scoring than 2 of those judges.. that’s how far gone they were from what really happened. stop sidestepping reality, please. One judge would buy you a possible argument, 2 throws your incompetence idea out the window.Posted September 30, 2013 12:57 am
J. Herron, aren’t “whistle blowers’ punished? If you don’t see it and go with the “people are inherently good” idea then thats fine. But don’t try to convince everyone that “you know” something that you truly do not. But then again, Hey, it’s your lie, you tell it however you’d like.Posted September 30, 2013 12:48 am
SRACEMOND: “joey herron is a scumbag”
Why, Sracemond? Because I know that boxing is not a corrupt sport and I defend it?
there’s a human element in every sport that directly and indirectly affects the outcome. That’s the truth, brother.
But in no other sport do the fans hang on bad officiating like fans of boxing do continously.
It’s rubbish, guys.
i know that boxing is not a corrupt sport.
here’s the proof: Where’s the smoking gun? Where’s te whistle blower? Whenever there’s been an issue of corruption in the past in any sport, there’s always been a whistle blower…there’s always been a Jose Canseco to exploit corruption or cheating.
Where’s the whistle blower in boxing?
There isn’t one because boxing is not a corrupt sport!!Posted September 30, 2013 12:44 am
Chavez Jr doesn’t deserve boxing fans money. Get him out of the sport. I used to stick up for him as fans would bash him early and want him to take fight he wasn’t ready for but I can’t anymore. Go live off your father’s earnings. Your no boxer. My niece has more toughness to her than you. Go away. I also think it is time for boxing fans to boycott Top Rank. They don’t deserve our money. I am not buying the Pac fight or JMM’s and I love watching JMM fight.Posted September 30, 2013 12:35 am
joey herron is a scumbag.Posted September 30, 2013 12:34 am
And overall, boxing at one point myself and being a big fan of the sport and the science, I guess old habits die hard. That’s how my brain works. I see a set of boxing gloves anywhere and my eyes open a little wider. I can’t help that.Posted September 30, 2013 12:26 am
Dionysus: “You see boxers suing promoters all the time. You think it’s because the promoter had the fighter’s best interest at mind? Of course not, they are opportunistic. What ever means that can expoit or take advantage of, they will. And everyone likes money.”
Yes…you see fighters sue managers and promoters all the time…but it has everything to do with misrepresentation and money.
That has absolutely nothing to do with the integrity of the scoring. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.
You’re challenging the integrity of the sport. I ask you: Why do you watch a sport that’s pre determined then? What’s the point?Posted September 30, 2013 12:12 am
Why watch then, brother? There’s no reason then to watch, is there if the outcome is pre-determined?
Every sport has a human element that affects the outcome.
There’s a home court or home field advantage in every sport.
Are the officials in every sport corrupt? No…but they’re human and they make mistakes…it’s the same in boxing.
Are officials in basketball paid off if they give the stars of the sport the benefit of the calls?
If Albert Pujols gets a tighter strike zone from the umpire behind the plate, does that mean that Baseball is rigged?
If a ref in football is influenced by the home fans, does that mean that games in the NFL are fixed?
NO!! It’s just the human element in the sport…in no other sport to the die hard fans cry about a bad decision…not like in boxing.
It has to stop!!Posted September 30, 2013 12:09 am
you keep saying that last line like Joseph Goebels. Propaganda and repetition will not change what is really happening. I’m not saying that incompetence doesn’t have it’s own role, but to rule out corruption is crazy. You see boxers suing promoters all the time. You think it’s because the promoter had the fighter’s best interest at mind? Of course not, they are opportunistic. What ever means that can expoit or take advantage of, they will. And everyone likes money.Posted September 30, 2013 12:06 am
Joseph, but it IS corrupt. If a fighter gos to Germany and fights a well known fighter, he’s got the cards stacked against him. Same with the UK, EX: Dirrell beat Froch and they gave it to Froch. The term “Home Cookin’” was coined for a reason in the sport. To say corruption is not rampant in the sport in not only untrue but you’re being untrue to yourself to believe otherwise. Another thing is that judges are judges because of discernment, not because they have different tastes. Be honest, Do you really think promoters and without naming names.. as far back as Ali erea to present have not had corruption going on? If you really believe that I would say you are too trusting but it is nice to view the world through rose colored glasses.Posted September 30, 2013 12:00 am
Every die hard fight fan has a repsponsiblity to be ambassadors of the sport…and claiming corruption every time there is a decision that fight fans don’t agree with is ultimately bad for the sport.
It’s not corrruption…it’s incompetence.Posted September 29, 2013 11:54 pm
I think this is a huge misunderstanding.
I actually scored the fight for Bryan Vera 96-94…I felt that Vera deserved the victory.
What I am opposed to, is the fight fans who are incorrectly coming to the conclusion that it’s corruption. Boxing is not a corrupt sport…that’s ridiculous.
My point is that fight fans need to be more educated in the process of how a fight is scored and how judges are chosen by the state commissions.
I think it’s a combination of factors. There are several flaws in the scoring system…couple that with the inconsistent standard in which these judges score fights. Everyone judge has their own personal tastes and preferences when watching and scoring a prizefight.
That has to change.
It’s not corruption…it’s incompetence!!Posted September 29, 2013 11:52 pm
Here is a case wherein the Mexican Media Machinery (MEDIA HYPE) is able to make an ordinary fighter look like an extraordinary fighter of the likes one would think of as legendary boxer if we are to believe the Mexican Media Machinery Hype.Posted September 29, 2013 11:35 pm
They need to elevate the seating position of the judges close to the ring so that they can better see the fight.Posted September 29, 2013 11:29 pm
There were several problems with this fight. Chavez Jr seemed to start off slowly and lose much of the first half of the fight. Instead of finishing strong, he seemed to fold the last few rounds. Then he wins 98-92! You could make a case for a split decision. You could make a case for a close decision for Chavez Jr, although most would say Vera won. But when you give scores like these that is what makes things look so bad. Look at Chavez Jr’s face. Look at the punch stats (although they don’t always tell the story).Posted September 29, 2013 11:27 pm
I want to thank everyone or listening in to tonight’s episode of “The Pugilist KOrner’s: Weekend Wrap”!! The numbers tonight were overwhelming…so thank you to everyone who listened via internet or calling in!!
The embedded player will be up on the press release shortly!!Posted September 29, 2013 11:04 pm
“no corruption among judges” is one of the most corrupt comments I’ve heard herePosted September 29, 2013 10:52 pm
JCC is a disgraPosted September 29, 2013 10:26 pm
Ward will destroy him and froch will kill himPosted September 29, 2013 10:25 pm
Andre Ward will spank Chavez Jr. like he is his daddy. Carl Froch will abuse him like he is his pimpPosted September 29, 2013 10:24 pm
TUMBO, I forgot to say that the HBO fight I’m referring to is LAST NIGHT fight, where the HBO Latino commentator had it 96-94. Not atrocious… PAZ!Posted September 29, 2013 10:10 pm
WTF??!! LOL!!Posted September 29, 2013 10:04 pm
Anyone who picks up their phone and wastes their money calling Joseph Herron is an idiot. Just like they are an idiot if they pay to watch PPV fights. Boxing is corrupt, it always has been and it always will be. I suggest you all ignore people like Joseph Herron, don’t read his arrogant know it all comments here when he has his own agenda. Simply skip over them from now on and consider him and his comments irrelevant, that way he’ll just be posting his banal condescending comments to himself. Don’t waste your time responding to him here because if you do that’s exactly what he wants, don’t do it, simply ignore him. There are far better and far more important things to do with your own money that waste it on phoning people like Joseph Herron.Posted September 29, 2013 9:56 pm
TUMBO! Q-VO!! Yeah, I know quite well about the Chavez Jr fight in Mexico where he was booed and there was stuff thrown. I believe it was the first Bronco McKart fight. As a matter of fact the Mexican HBO Latino commentator had the fight for Vera 96-94. No, it wasn’t an atrocious decision, nor corrupt, we’ve all seen plenty worse. But it was relatively bad one, IMHO. Are high profile fighters favored more often than not?? We’ll, history says YES! Does it seem like certain judges/officials are favoring/protecting the “cash cows” to remain in good standing with the sanctioning orgs/commissions for future title assignments and considerations?? Well, there’s NO denying that the thought has past through the minds of 99% of ALL fight fans. The other 1% have also but lie & won’t admit it! LOL!! Anyway, a rematch would be great but I doubt that it will ever happen. Junior will be fighting for a WBC belt within another couple of fights at most. And NO, I don’t believe he was in his best shape. If he were I don’t thing Vera would’ve performed as well as he did. Paz Carnal!!Posted September 29, 2013 9:43 pm
Chavez is beatable. His work rate is terrible and he waits to land one punch at a time, looking to hopefully land the money shot. Lackluster, non-dedicated, unearned fame type of fighter!Posted September 29, 2013 9:36 pm
J.Herron, I think the cards were right, they just had the wrong person as the winner!Posted September 29, 2013 9:34 pm
ironically, all of the Hate directed at Chavez Jr. is the primary reason that he’s such a marketable opponent. not unlike Mayweather who is another fighter that petty fanboys are desperate to see lose and will ante-up in record numbers to watch the potential of such a spectacle. all publicity is good publicity and Chavez Jr. attracts a lot of attention and publicity. just look at the number of posts for a meaningless tune-up at no weight-class(?).Posted September 29, 2013 9:32 pm
Hopefully they strip Chavez Cheato Jr of this Robbery win like they did to dumb dumb Rios after the Abril Robbery…Posted September 29, 2013 9:25 pm
Tumbo tell us all how Many Currently Unbeaten World Champions Mexico has today??? LOL ZERO? LOL…Posted September 29, 2013 9:24 pm
atleast you still have Mickey Mouse Garcia and Abner Low Blow Mares.. but once Danny Garcia and Lucas Matthyess take care of those to hype jobs you’ll have ZERO fighters left.. LOL ..Posted September 29, 2013 9:22 pm
“THE HARDER THEY FALL”, the best boxing movie ever made exposing the business of boxing ( Humphrey Bogarts last movie role). Chavez Jr and father, are sellouts to the ones who control the strings$$$$$.Posted September 29, 2013 9:21 pm
Tumbo how do you feel now that both Canelo and Chavez Jr. have been exposed as all hype Bums? LOL…Posted September 29, 2013 9:21 pm
Gabriel Rosado, after KO’ing Soto Karass and taking on GGG wants to tap Canelos Culito.. Chavez Cheato Jr needs to rematch Vera.. everyone wants that…Posted September 29, 2013 9:20 pm
Hopefully this cowardly spineless Chihuahua has the Cojones to take on some legit Light Heavies like Adonis Stevenson… or even a smaller Andre Ward…Posted September 29, 2013 9:19 pm
on the bright side, Gabriel Rosado now has a marketable opponent: Bryan Vera. considering that Rosado can’t string together enough wins to even merit a rematch v. Angulo, Vera could begin dismantling what’s left of PR’s C-level opponents, which is all that’s left of PR boxing, Period . . . “Cannn-Tahhh y no Llores!” . . . (lol).Posted September 29, 2013 9:18 pm
Total Garbage fight with an expected crooked outcome, worse then the ABril vs Rios Robbery.. Chavez Cheato Jr. couldn’t take out this C level opponent even with a 25+lb weight advantage.. Vera was boxing his ears off just like Sergio Martinez did.. you couldn’t give Chavez jr. even 3 rounds..Posted September 29, 2013 9:18 pm
“Just watched the fight AGAIN for the THIRD time”(!?). EZ, with all due respect, you sound determined to attribute a degree of gravity to this bout that just isn’t there. otherwise, Vargas v. Wright or Mayweather v. DLH were more meaningful matchups that NObody would bother watching more than twice. in fact, I’ve only seen both of these bouts once without the slightest impulse to ever watch either again. bottomline, this was little more than glorified sparring and just like no experienced fight-fan would never draw concrete conclusions based on a sparring match, no concrete conclusions can be derived from Chavez Jr’s. first bout, following a yearlong suspension, at a contrived weight limit, v. a naturally smaller opponent. some are definitely working over time to do so but they just sound like petty and bitter HATERs. this bout was meaningless, Period. too many keystrokes being wasted trying to make it out to be something that it was never intended to be, e.g., if Chavez Jr. had won by devastating KO, the same peanut-heads would be on this thread spraying the same piss. what’s the point? besides denigrating the name of Chavez?Posted September 29, 2013 9:15 pm
HERRON ahhh… “ALLOWING JUDGES TO DECIDE YOUR FATE” hmmm.. With all due respects, but have you ever trained fighters?? Maybe not. Not trying to underestimate your knowledge of the sport. Look, sometimes part of your pre-fight strategy is to go the distance, as in this case I believe. Shield’s and any COMPETENT trainer would know that Vera’s chances of scoring a KNOCKOUT were SLIM & NONE!! The CORRECT instructions were/are:DON’T GO FOR THE KNOCKOUT, DON’T TRADE PUNCHES, GET OFF AND MOVE….!! Why?? Well, because of the weight difference, Chavez’sturdy chin, Vera not being known for big kayo power nor his defensive skills…. and other stuff that a trainer knows about his fighter. Seems like you’re coming down on Vera for not going for the knockout or closing the show. In our gym we have a few fighters that don’t hit hard. They are fine boxers, good skills in general, one of which I believe will be cracking the the rankings in another year or so. When they fight heavy handed fighters we train them not to take too many chances, especially if they don’t have sturdy chins themselves. Yeah, they can put away soft chinned, inferior level opponents but things change pretty drastically when they up their level of competition. You’ve been around the game so I’m sure you yourself have seen fighters that are winning fights and want to take “out of the judge’s hands and… GET KNOCKED OUT THEMSELVES!! How many KOs has Floyd scored in the past 3/4 years?? NONE!! Did he try to take the Oscar, Cotto, Canelo fights out of the judges hands? Why? Anyway, I’m sure you get my point,even if you don’t happen to agree. Peace & I hope your program goes well tonight!!Posted September 29, 2013 9:15 pm
That Legendary Father was also an admitted Drug Abusing Alcoholic who abused his wife and kid.. He also no doubt was loading his Wraps for his Big Fights..Posted September 29, 2013 9:12 pm
this decision was disgraceful and shameful for any real Mexican of Honor who won’t accept this level of corruption..Posted September 29, 2013 9:11 pm
TURBo-H@MSTER, i found myself rooting for Vera most of the bout but when Chavez Jr. would score those solid shots, it would equal all of Vera’s activity for the entire previous minute. Vera would once again pick up a head of steam and “Pow!” Chavez Jr. would reset the competition to a roughly even score. that was pretty much the pace of the entire bout. Btw, the number of posts regarding a meaningless tune-up bout pretty much confirms the bitter hissy-pissy hatred for Chavez Jr., which has NOTHING to do with Boxing and THAT’s the potty-wagon i never hop on. otherwise, there is no wagon loaded with fans who love Chavez Jr. Hell(?!), he was pelted with garbage by Mexican fans, IN Mexico, with his legendary father sitting ringside. to claim that there are legions of fans desperate for Chavez Jr. to succeed at any cost is canned rhetoric not supported by any evidence of fact.Posted September 29, 2013 9:02 pm
With you I have seen it all, now you blame the fans for the fall of boxing. You need to take a good look in the mirror, with out the fans there is no sport of boxing. With fight decision last night people lose respect for the sport because of the corruption. The corruption and greed in boxing has gotten it to this point where it teeters on the edge of being relevant in the United States. Gone are the days of Gillettes Friday night fights, we also lost USA’S Tuesday night fights, ESPN shows spotty boxing show on sometimes not on others. If you ask any former boxing fan why they are not fans anymore you get the same answer almost every time, Boxing is to corrupt. But, I guess in your opinion it’s the fans fault that boxing is pushing them away.Posted September 29, 2013 9:00 pm
Boycott chavez next fight simple as that we all should have boycotted this fight but we learn from our mistakes and if you do want to watch the fight watch it online for free . Fu*k chavez fu*k arum and fu*k hbo but dam they got some good boxing the next 2 months. LolPosted September 29, 2013 8:22 pm
Just watched the fight AGAIN for the THIRD time, twice last night and a few hours ago. The 1st time last night I scored it 97-93 for Vera, I gave Vera FIVE PRETTY CLEAR ROUNDS & ONE close round and ONE very close/razor thin round. My card was very much in line with Weisfield’s HBO card except that unlike him, I didn’t give Chavez the 7th round. I didn’t feel that he deserved it on account of that ONE impressive good punch at the end of the round while doing nothing much during the first 2+ minutes. I gave Julio Jr. TWO clear rounds and ONE close round. Before going to bed I watched it again and this time I believe I scored it 96-94, giving the Julio the benefit of the razor thin round. This afternoon I calmly watched it again upon returning from church and once again I had it in favor of Vera 97-93 although I believe 96-94 is a pretty fair call as well. I believe in my ability to score a fight. No, I’m not perfect but I try not to be influenced by favoritism, pride nor distractions, that’s why I usually watch a close fight 2/3 times, sometimes even more with some of the fighters & trainers from the gym, managers, boxing officials.. and friends. As a matter of fact days before the fight I questioned my WBO board member friend about Vera’s #1 ranking, telling him over the phone that there were other 160Lb’ers MORE worthy of that top spot than Vera and mentioned a couple names. He paused and said, “Maybe so but watch him (Vera) fight on Saturday, he’s probably gonna surprise a lot of fans.” hmmm… HE DID!!Posted September 29, 2013 8:20 pm
I meant if Jr is coming in overweight.Posted September 29, 2013 7:53 pm
This clown is such a joke, how can he even have fans? Hope in his next fight he will be mauled real good.Posted September 29, 2013 7:52 pm
Vera deserves a lot of credit for going in the ring with the much bigger guy.
I gave him rounds 2,3 and 7,8,9,10.
So I though he was outworking Chavez, but I got the impression Jr was schooling him a bit in the first half with his movement & accuracy.
By the second half, it seemed like Jr’s movement was dwindling, and he squandered a 4-2 lead.
So fans got ripped by sub-100% effort AND a unfair decision(in my opinion!
Vera deserves rematch for sure, but if he’s coming in overweight,what’s gonna change?Posted September 29, 2013 7:51 pm
el chapo: “Joseph, although judging a fight can be subjective, subjectivity operates within bounds of REASON. I’d say that based on the circumstances before, during, and after the fight, it would be a hell of a lot more reasonable to determine that the judges were corrupt, than that the three judges actually thought Chavez won the fight.”
There is no corruption among judges…I will say that there is incompetence among judges though.
i will go over everything on tonight’s show, which starts in about an hour.
718-506-1506Posted September 29, 2013 7:48 pm
Chavez lost that fight ,period!!..it’s crazy!Posted September 29, 2013 7:20 pm
Vera should have stated that it was HE who would have to see if Chavez deserved a rematch.Posted September 29, 2013 7:18 pm
Joseph – although judging a fight can be subjective, subjectivity operates within bounds of REASON. I’d say that based on the circumstances before, during, and after the fight, it would be a hell of a lot more reasonable to determine that the judges were corrupt, than that the three judges actually thought Chavez won the fight.Posted September 29, 2013 7:15 pm
Joseph, I never said the corruption was “obvious”. The fact that judging is subjective gives rise to the possibility of corruption. If you think that boxing has never suffered from corruption then that is ridiculous.
PPV for an “exhibition” , stop it, you’re killing me.Posted September 29, 2013 7:14 pm
Thanks for the response Joseph. I did think Vera deserved the decision because he was pressing the action, and even though he wasn’t landing monstrous punches, he was effective and landing. Chavez on the other hand spent 3/4 of each round backing away , and when he did land a solid hook, the round was just about over. The crowd screamed at the big punches, but Chavez wasn’t nearly busy enough. This fight looked to me like a local club fight. Chavez has no chance against any of the champions. Chavez should be embarrassed by his efforts and preparations for a televised fight.Posted September 29, 2013 7:05 pm
Pissedawthetime: “Joseph, do you agree that the judging system needs changed?”
I’ve known for a very long time that there are obvious flaws in the current scoring system in professional boxing.
If last night’s bout were scored like an amateur contest, Bryan would have been the ovewhelming victor.
But, when the emphasis of scoring is placed on clean, effective, and consequential punching, it creates a quandary for the judges at ringside.
What do you favor…quality or quantity?
That’s just one of the issues with pro scoring in boxing.
Like I said, I will go over everything tonight on the show…I have spoken with several commission members on how to implement better methods of scoring, and everyone has different ideas ranging from decimal systems to more liberal two point rounds to the more effective work.Posted September 29, 2013 6:57 pm
Joseph, do you agree that the judging system needs changed?Posted September 29, 2013 6:49 pm
What I think is ridiculous is that you come to a conclusion of “obvious” corruption.
That’s far from the truth, brother…that’s what I think is ridiculous.
It’s ignorance…scoring a prizefight is a subjective interpretation of the action that unfolds in the ring.
There is no right or wrong by definition…that’s what I find to be ridiculous in your statement.Posted September 29, 2013 6:49 pm
Prideofvirginiabeach: “Brian Vera had the upset here, it was MUCH clearer than his two wins over Mora. Shame Vera couldn’t just do what he does in most of his upsets and just KOed JCC’s pampered, phony ass.”
That’s a very good point, brother. His wins over Mora were controversial as well. In fact, I felt Vera lost the second bout to Mora.
So he’s the beneficiary of one questionable decision and the unfortunate loser in another.
That’s just the way it goes if you allow the judges to decide your fate.Posted September 29, 2013 6:45 pm
Joseph, why is my opinion worthy of ridicule? There are many posters here and on other sites saying the same things as me. Are we all ridiculous?
You come across as patronising and condescending. Scoring a fight is not rocket science.
You want people to watch boxing and then tell me not to watch! You are ridiculous.Posted September 29, 2013 6:43 pm
after last night’s event, you won’t be seeing Chavez on a PPV as a headliner anytime soon.
I’m going to talk about all of this on tonight’s Pugilist KOrner with Vera’s trainer Ronnie Shields at 9PM EST…718-506-1506Posted September 29, 2013 6:41 pm
Pissedawthetime, if I don’t spell something correctly on this forum, it’s because I’m trying to get my thoughts out quickly while I prepare for tonight’s show.
My work speaks for itself.
I don’t know you, I’m merely forming an opinion on your words of corruption and boycott, which is ridiculous.
I am going to go over how the judges at ringside actually score a fight on tonight’s program, because there seems to be a lot of misconceptions concerning this process.
I hope that it brings some clarity and understanding to how it actually happens from ringside.Posted September 29, 2013 6:31 pm
I will be reading about JJC’s demise as I will not allow a DIME of my money to end up is his pocket. It is what it is. BOYCOTT JCC PPV.Posted September 29, 2013 6:28 pm
I didn’t say that everyone who scored the fight for Vera had an obvious agenda.
What I stated was that if you had an obvious disdain for Arum and Chavez, that you were going to look for reasons to give the rounds to Vera.
I scored the bout 6 rounds to 4 in favor of Vera…but it’s not a robbery.
In my opinion, I can’t see scoring the fight 8-2 or 7-3 in favor of Chavez…but I know enough people in the sport where I realize that it’s subjective interpretation and not corruption.Posted September 29, 2013 6:21 pm
How did you score the fight?Posted September 29, 2013 6:17 pm
Anyone who sees more than a good punch on this guy Chavez jr are spaced out. He is another Kelly Pavlik, a solid punch but slow and one punch at a time. A good technical boxer with speed will always beat him. OH,… But I forgot, he’s not like Pavlik because even when he loses, he wins.Posted September 29, 2013 6:05 pm
Look at all the parties involved. A big name like Chavez is the fight that would bring more money against Ward who, interestingly enough was commentating for HBO last night. So the right thing to grease all parties’ pockets happened to create a super pocket greasing later. The proof is there just with seeing the fight, the idiocy or the scoring and Chavez not wanting a rematch with a guy who came up in weight while he couldn’t even get to his weight and then pushed him around the ring for 10 rounds.Posted September 29, 2013 6:00 pm
Herron, not often do I disagree with you but this time, I do. I have no disdain for either Arum or Chavez going into this fight. I did want to see Vera do well. It’s no secret his work rate and punch output was double possibly triple that of Chavez. And though Chavez landed harder shots they were very few and far between. Those cards did not in any way shape or form reflect what I saw with my own eyes. The only way a score of 98-92 or 97-93 would be realistic was if it was for Vera. Just looking at the two guys’ faces tells enough. Vera was a work-horse that pressed the action and Chavez’s face shows the proof. With the known payoffs and criminal behavior in boxing this is clear and far from outrageous to say something stinks in Denmark! Hell, this guy himself knows he lost and took a good pounding in the process, no wonder he’s not up for a rematch after he got owned for 10 rounds.Posted September 29, 2013 5:51 pm
OK Joseph, so as ambassadors we have to turn a blind eye to corruption? BTW I nearly did stop watching after the Abril v Rios farce. I am well aware judging is subjective and have recently argued with casual fans over other controversial decisions using much of the same language you have just responded with.
You are making assumptions about me. I score it as I see it but for you to say that the boxers should press for the KO to let the judges off the hook is laughable. If you want to be taken seriously as a journalist then at least get the spelling right.
You may be an insider, but the customer is king.
PeacePosted September 29, 2013 5:48 pm
Actually think dirrell would school chavez and perform a “stevenson” masterpiece like stevenson did to cloud!!!! Seriously!!!Posted September 29, 2013 5:43 pm
The California boxing commission should call this a No Contest. This was blantant robbery and the judges should be made to come in a explain themselves for this. This was THE WORST decision all year. I am just glad something like this didn’t (though slightly did) happen on the Mayweather-Alvarez PPV. Brian Vera had the upset here, it was MUCH clearer than his two wins over Mora. Shame Vera couldn’t just do what he does in most of his upsets and just KOed JCC’s pampered, phony ass.Posted September 29, 2013 5:40 pm
Thanks, Te Tumbo…feel free to call into tonight’s show at 9PM EST, and give your opinion of last night’s fight card…718-506-1506Posted September 29, 2013 5:38 pm
Chavez looked like a flabby cabezon who would get seriously hurt by Ward, Froch and Stevenson since the weed munchies got him struggling for weight… His power is like i’ve said before “overrated”… Another bum getting x-mas gifts in sept… Just like the Cant-nelo draw… No se pudo puttsPosted September 29, 2013 5:37 pm
BUSTAJAY: “This posting errors sucks raw baby donkey a…SS hole”
Lol…Hang in there, brother!!
Check out the show tonight, Ronnie has a lot to say in his segment tonight…it’s going to be tremendous!!
718-506-1506Posted September 29, 2013 5:34 pm
The fight doesn’t deserve a rematch like Chavez doesn’t deserve a win and doesn’t deserve A single fan! Why would this shirt tail rider want to have a rematch with Vera when he knows himself he lost the first time? Why get beat up again? Good logic you cheatin’ bastid! It will nullify the name your daddy worked so hard for. Ruin it good man!!!Posted September 29, 2013 5:30 pm
HERRON, excellent insight and observations on fan bias. IMO, Jr. displayed solid punching prowess, defensive skills, and mobility. Vera was the tough and gritty aggressor. depending on which style you prefer, the scorecard could’ve gone either way without it being called a “robbery”. in fact, you know something was done right when ESB’s resident Hack “Rob Smith” DISagrees with it. there is none more biased or more notorious for robbing ESB readers of their time with his glaringly biased cyber-droppings. he is a reverse barometer of objectivity, which I think I will make a habit of pointing out from now on.Posted September 29, 2013 5:29 pm
I meant to start out by saying “whether or not you realize it,”Posted September 29, 2013 5:16 pm
Anonymous: “Joseph Herron, YOU sound like a know it all.”
I’m sorry if it comes across that way, Anonymous, but I am a boxing insider who speaks with the fighters, trainers, promoters, and commission members on a regular basis.
I am forced to look at the sport a little more objectively than most because I am a journalist and a sports commentator.
Tune in to the show tonight and I will really tell you where Chavez and Stevenson go from here.
I have already spoken with Ronnie Shields and Sugar Hill concerning their respective fighters and their performances. I have also spoken with many other promoters and trainers about the future of scoring and matchmaking and everyone is in agreement.
I will share our discussion with everyone at 9PM EST on The Pugilist KOrner tonight.
To call into the show, dial 718-506-1506.
Thanks!!Posted September 29, 2013 5:09 pm
Open scoring is terrible for Boxing Kills the Drama and excitement leading up to the finally.. what is needed is for the Commissions to hold these inept or corrupt Judges accountable and for them to take immediate actin with these blatant Rip Offs.. like they did in the Abril vs Rios Robbery..Posted September 29, 2013 5:04 pm
If everyone doesn’t like the result and Chavez even less, than you should be happy that there’s a rematch. Brian Vera NEVER would have made this much money, and now he’s going to get huge money for the rematch. If I had to calculate, I think Vera in a single fight, is going to end up doubling his career earnings. What’s so bad about that? Chavez is gonna make millions anyway, at least Vera gets a piece too. Rematch is the best thing (money-wise) to ever happen to Vera. Every dark cloud has a silver lining and now Mr. Vera can earn a sh7t-load more money for himself. Maybe Chavez will be lazy and bloated next time too, and Vera will make even more. Remember, when this fight was first announced, Vera was givin NO CHANCE! Now he’s turned it into a double bonus. Good for you Brian. Use the money wisely and get out sooner than later. As far as Chavez? I don’t really care. Can’t wait to watch him get taught by Ward.Posted September 29, 2013 4:48 pm
It ‘s an outdated system. Is what i mean–Posted September 29, 2013 4:45 pm
Open scoring or some type of body that can over rule bad decisions would be nice. It’s weird that the fight score is a “secret ” until the end of the fight is outdated.Posted September 29, 2013 4:44 pm
It’s OK guys, HBO assures us that none of the judges were on the take. Ah, the sweet stench of corruption on national TV.Posted September 29, 2013 4:42 pm
PEEJ – You’re correct about Chavez Jr. fans. I believe they moved on to Canelo Alvarez. The fact most of the Mexcian fans that came to see him, ended up booing him and cheering for Vera is not a good sign for his career. Chavez Jr. has run out of favors and political gifts. If he doesn’t start really showing something, he’ll no longer be a marketable fighter.Posted September 29, 2013 4:41 pm
I bet his Dad stays in the stands from here on out.Posted September 29, 2013 4:37 pm
THAT FAT PRICK CHAVEZ WOULDN”T OF GOT A JOB WITH A BROOM YEARS AGO.Posted September 29, 2013 4:35 pm
Boxing isn’t flawed, HBO and their paid judges are flawed and corrupt. What a joke of a network. “Throw the rock and hide the hand.” HBO is equally as guilty as the corrupt judges they paid off. There commentating sucks and was extremely one sided. During this match they were attempting as always to sway what normal people with eyes saw. What a complete joke! I think the general public need to make a statement by boycotting HBO. You would think with Showtime kicking their asses that they would have learned by now. But I guess notPosted September 29, 2013 4:29 pm
tszyu’s crushed gonads
Though the decision was unconscionable, it sure was fun to see Ronnie coax the best out of Vera. Not to sound too sentimental, but it was inspiring and a metaphor for life.Posted September 29, 2013 4:28 pm
This posting errors sucks raw baby donkey a…SS holePosted September 29, 2013 4:23 pm
MODERN TV HYPE AT ITS BEST.Posted September 29, 2013 4:20 pm
The power of a name, unfortunely he have only brought shame to boxing.
Chavez. Has no heart of a champion and is a man with no honor!! I’ll never pay to see a Chavez fight . See what a name and a few bucks gets you..shamefully all the way aroundPosted September 29, 2013 3:59 pm
True,Posted September 29, 2013 3:51 pm
Judge Carla Caiz, who’s dad has also ridiculously blown a few decisions himself, gave the first FOUR rounds to Vera then very INCOMPETENTLY gave Jr the last SIX rounds!! hmmm… While the other judge SUPER INCOMPETENTLY gave/gifted ‘The Son Of The Legend’ with the first EIGHT rounds and the FINAL TWO rounds to Vera!! What’s WRONG with this picture??Posted September 29, 2013 3:47 pm
Correction: It is strange that all the judges saw it in Chavez’s favor, and it’s just as strange that the vast majority of fans saw it in Vera’s favor.Posted September 29, 2013 3:37 pm
I think the fact that CHavez Jr. has always been viewed as living off of his dads name, and has failed drug tests, played a roll in many fans giving close rounds to Vera. The thing is, the fact that there were many close rounds, should mean that the score cards should very. It is strange that all the judges saw it in Vera’s favor, and it’s just as strange that the vast majority of fans saw it in Vera’s favor.Posted September 29, 2013 3:32 pm
Tomato Can Stan
Herroon -Even if it was a difficult fight to score, those margins between points were absurb and ridiculous. It was a much closer fight than that.Posted September 29, 2013 3:32 pm
This fight was not a hard fight to score. Chavez was throwing 1 punch at a time and even though they where landing werent doing a lot. Now I didn’t sit here and score the fight and I was moving around a lot but the few rounds I saw Vera clearly won the fight. It wasn’t like Vera was just throwing arm punches. He was throwing hard punches and he was landing, just look at Chavez face. Vera clearly won this fight. Chavez lost a lot of respect and fans last night. He was already losing them as you can see the arena was half empty. Then he got booed after after wards.Posted September 29, 2013 3:31 pm
YOU sound like a know it all.Posted September 29, 2013 3:30 pm
Next time this clown should just get into the ring and have his hand raised by the ref, cut out the fight because we all know the score.Posted September 29, 2013 3:24 pm
You’re right about the accountability of the commission who hires these judges.
More needs to be done to ensure quality control.
But you, like a lot of other people on this forum, are sounding like Vera deserving the victory was a matter of fact, when it isn’t.
Judging a fight is subjective, and is a matter of opinion, not fact.
I felt Vera deserved to the win as well, but it was a much more difficult fight to score than you guys are making it seem.
There were several rounds in which Vera would be following Chavez around, pressing the action and setting the pace of the fight, but would get punished by a few punches and create a serious quandary for the judges…quality or quantity?
That was the big question of the evening…couple that with the roar of the crowd whenever Chavez merely let his hands go, as well as Chavez being the big name on the card…last night became a veru difficult assignment for the judges at ringside.
Maybe having the judges at ringside isn’t such a good idea when scoring a fight with this kind of funding. If you have enough cameras to give the judges plenty of angles, why leave them in an influencial environment?
Why subject them to the crowd and the fanfare?
The scoring process in boxing will always be a work in progress…there are no perfect solutions in a very subjective process.Posted September 29, 2013 3:17 pm
THE REAL AMERICAN OAK
Got his ass whooped real good.Posted September 29, 2013 3:11 pm
You’re allowing the decision of this exhibition to affect how you feel towards the sport.
Who are not giving money to? HBO? Adonis Stevenson? Marquez? Bradley? Cotto? Pacquiao? Rios?
All of the great fighters who actually deserve to make money in this sport because you didn’t like the decision of a ten round exhibition.
And you’re asking me how not giving them any money empowers them.Posted September 29, 2013 3:04 pm
Joseph Herron, why should fans just want to brush these types of bad decisions off as though they’re no big deal? They are a big deal to fans that look forward to watching a good fight regardless if it was for a title or not. Judges are suppose to be objective and knowledgeable when scoring a boxing match. How on earth can one judge have it 8 rounds to 2 for Chavez Jr? This type of questionable scoring only leads to a negative back lash from fans all over the world. And you wonder why people say boxing is corrupt, run by the mafia and fixed. I’m a huge boxing fan, but these judges need to be thoroughly investigated on how they can come up with these ridiculous scores. Everyone already suspects Chavez Jr of receiving gift decisions, and the easy way out because of his father’s famous name. The kid is a spoiled, pot smoking drinker that gets away with way too many things. I called it at home last night even before the decision was made. Boxing will continue to be looked at in a negative way each time judges score fights like last night’s. There will never be a clear cut winner unless a knockout happens. Whoever hires these judges better elevate the criteria they’re using. Boxing deserves better. Brian Vera deserved better.Posted September 29, 2013 3:01 pm
How can not giving money to someone empower them?Posted September 29, 2013 2:49 pm
Rarely do you see so much hate for a boxer, but Chavez Jr is getting what he deserves. I feel sorry for a good honest pro like Vera to have been robbed of his well earned victory. Chavez Jr and the those who fixed the fight are a disgrace boxing.Posted September 29, 2013 2:43 pm
stop it, brother…you sound like a idealistic child in high school.
Let’s penalize Bradley and Marquez, two of the best ambassadors of the sport, because we don’t agree with the Chavez/Vera decision…a glorified exhibition that really didnt mean anything to the landscape of any division.Posted September 29, 2013 2:42 pm
AMERICAN BOXING AT ITS BEST, A DRUGS CHEAT AND BENT JUDGES.Posted September 29, 2013 2:40 pm
Are you really going to empower JCC jr and Top Rank like that?
Look, if you allow this exhibition match do affect you in this manner, then you in essence are empowering these guys.
Folks, boxing is still the greatest sport on the face of the earth.
Take the Chavez Jr decision for what it is…a single controversial decision in an otherwise meaningless fight.
Was it for a title? No
Is this going to retire Bryan Vera? No…quite the opposite
Did Chavez make any new fans last night? No…quite the opposite.
Look, the truth always eventually comes out in the ring. Bryan will more than likely fight the winner of Triple G and Curtis Stevens next year and receive another well deserved payday.
Chavez will hopefully learn from this and work harder to get in better condition…last night, Chavez’s conditioning really failed him…just like Canelo, the kid couldn’t let his hands go throughout the entire fight.
Let this decision roll of you like water!!Posted September 29, 2013 2:39 pm
HBO needs to be investigated by the government BOYCOTT BRADLEY MARQUEZ PPVPosted September 29, 2013 2:38 pm
I didn’t watch this fight because Jr is a joke. Guess I was right. The Addonis Cloud fight was good though.Posted September 29, 2013 2:36 pm
While I had Vera winning by a couple rounds, you could make a case for Chavez Jr. because he landed the bigger shots, just not a very good case. I also think if Jr. would get serious about his training/craft, he could beat a guy like the aging Froch. But it’s all in Jr. hands — skimp on training/conditioning and continue to struggle in the ring. Get completely dedicated to the sport and he [still] has a strong future. As for Vera, well done! You elevated your game and deserve a big[ger] payday fight — I hope you get it, because after last night you deserve it.Posted September 29, 2013 2:35 pm
Demon, what channel on your tv were you watching last night, there was no =world class boxer, just a tough kid beating up a juiced up cry baby who is living off his daddy’s name=factPosted September 29, 2013 2:04 pm
Demon, are you one of Chavez Jr’s Pot smokin buddies??? Junior is lucky if he won 4 rounds..Posted September 29, 2013 2:02 pm
What a barefaced prick. I believe the guy sincerely thinks he won the fight because he’s so used to getting his way. As for the fans that defend this jerk? Well, the Flomos have competition.Posted September 29, 2013 2:01 pm
Look, In don’t like Chavez Jr, because he doesn’t do the basics = conditioning.
If you didn’t see a Pro (ChavezJr) against an amateur (the nobody) you don’y get dancing, sorry boxing. Chavez Jr won every round easily, made no name look like bar fighter = which he is. Good job Chavez Jr.
Robbery: You are kidding. Speed + power + ring intelligence = world class boxer …Posted September 29, 2013 1:57 pm
Instructions from JCC’s corner. “Just don’t get knocked out, its that simple…”Posted September 29, 2013 1:53 pm
I don’t want to see a rematch against Vera. It would be kinda fun to see GGG blow away this punk away.Posted September 29, 2013 1:51 pm
Politics used to earn his dad victories eg Whittaker and Taylor, clearly Mrs Chavez is bending over for some promoterPosted September 29, 2013 1:41 pm
ROFLMAO – what a fkn spoiled brat Primadonna.. Yeah, why should Vera get a rematch? he’s not the sone of a famous Boxer like my Dad.. So what if I outweighed him by 25+lbs or that the Judges were bought and paid for.. and I actually lost the fight.. why should he get a rematch when I can continue this Farce and become El Gran Compeon the Mejicohhhhh!!!Posted September 29, 2013 1:40 pm
Why would anyone would be shocked?,this sort of thing is been going on in boxing since its very beginnings!!Posted September 29, 2013 1:23 pm
If he thinks Vera was rough, wait til he fights Sakio Bika.Posted September 29, 2013 1:13 pm
ANYONE WHO PAYS FOR A PPV FIGHT IN AMERICA IS A RETARD.Posted September 29, 2013 1:04 pm
see how he does against dirrel or Arthur Abraham.Posted September 29, 2013 12:57 pm
well if JCC earns a title shot, that would be different.Posted September 29, 2013 12:55 pm
Boycott ALL PPV fights and don’t pay ANY money to see live fights.
Don’t give corrupt boxing promoters YOUR money! They are laughing in your face as they walk away with YOUR money!Posted September 29, 2013 12:39 pm
Jr is fighter, but can not rank with top level competition. Ward, Stevenson, Hopkins, Sergei. Martinez should stay retired.Posted September 29, 2013 12:38 pm
He lives of his father’s name, everyone knows that. He is a fighter, but a level from 1-10 a 5 or 4 fighter. He has lost fight previously that has been giving to him in the past. He lost the fight with Martinez, but the last round left the crowd to think about his fighting abilities as well as level of fighter he could had been. After a year of no fighting, has been found with illegal substaces in his system. He should at least came at the weight he was suppose to in great shape. He should have taking care of himself through out the year out. Last night a dissapoinment of a fighter, he indeed lost a lot fans. They will not watch him fight again believe me.Posted September 29, 2013 12:37 pm
and you sir do not deserve a “title shot” not even for the corrupt WBC. You will be destroyed by a decent 168 pounder not that you’ll be able to make that weightclass.Posted September 29, 2013 12:26 pm
I will be reading about JJC’s demise as I will not allow a DIME of my money to end up is his pocket. It is what it is. BOYCOTT JCC PPV.Posted September 29, 2013 12:09 pm