It tells me he whipped an old Sonny Liston after trying to quit in the first fight.It tells me Ali could not knock out a hamburger,much less Sonny Liston with one punch and last but not least they came from 2 different worlds and boxing fans and their kids saw the fight as good guy and bad guy.It is how our country was then….Reality had not set in yet. We had not seen BAD back then. Sonny Liston ,rest in peace…..God bless…..kenny weldonPosted September 26, 2012 4:17 pm
Get over it Tark….Marciano proved himself to be legitamate by beating the best out there at the time.He didnt dodge anybody.All the crap you use to reason with came from writers .One thing I personally have learned in boxing over my life time is just what Angelo Dundee told me when I was a kid.Lou Duva told me the same thing. “Because one boxer can beat another,it is ludicrest to believe he is going to beat another of a different skill set” .Boxers are not all alike ….If they were,it would not be called the boxing GAME…..God bless….kenny weldonPosted September 22, 2012 7:52 pm
Its Me, Ernie
More nonsense from Tark…Posted September 20, 2012 2:37 am
bikermike… I’m not going to get up from the floor with a nut standing over me and running around the ring like and idiot instead of going to a neutral corner — which the referee is yelling at him to do.. Dempsey refused to go to a neutral corner for about 4 seconds, and the rule had just been instituted so he wasn’t used to it.. Ali was completely out of control and could have been DQ’d because it took about 12 seconds for him to go to a neutral corner.. No fighter gets up and resumes fighting if he intends to stay down and be counted out.. That makes no sense.. Liston only had to stay down for another 10 or 15 seconds and Walcott would have counted him out.. Different referees count at different speeds so it’s not 10 seconds either — it’s the referee’s count.Posted September 19, 2012 8:02 pm
Then you don’t care about the RULES OF BOXING which state that a boxer must go to a neutral corner following a knockdown… If he refuses to the count is supposed to be suspended until he complies… Ali rufused to go to a neutral corner. Liston got up immediately when he finally did.Posted September 19, 2012 7:54 pm
Regardless of the nonsense posted by TARK, Liston was down for at least 10 seconds. Check it out on YouTube. Yeah sure, Gene Tunney got a long count, that was an atrocity. Dempsey should have regained the crown. bikermike raised the issue of Liston’s age; if Sonny Liston was considerable older than the official record, (that he was 32 in 1964) then you’d think that Sonny himself and boxing historians would have made much of the issue that Liston beat Jersey Joe Walcott’s record of being the oldest man to win the title at age 37. The idea that Muhammad Ali should have been “disqualified for insubordination” – as TARK suggested – has now replaced the previous DUMBEST comments posted on East Side Boxing forum – that somehow an old man named Sonny Liston was somehow robbed in his fight against possibly the greatest heavyweight whoever lived: Muhammad Ali.Posted September 19, 2012 5:26 pm
I remember when Ed Sullivan asked Sonny Liston to come on his show.just after he became HW CHAMPION OF THE WORLD
Sonny did his skip rope thing to NIGHT TRAIN…perfectly !…
Then..in a uncharacteristic move by Sullivan…..Ed called the Champ over…Ed took off his jacket…rolled up his sleeve….and put his skinny little arm up against THE CHAMP’S huge muscular forearm…….Sonny was not prepared for this…and laughed so hard tears came down his face.
Sonny Liston deserves a better history than what we’ve been fed. Liston loved kids….gave money to lots of charities. SOnny was no saint..true…(neither am I)…but Sonny Liston was thrown under the bus by a lot of people for a lot of reasons ..which had Nothing to do with the character of that man. RIP CHAMPPosted September 19, 2012 4:56 pm
tells me that Liston was close to fifty yrs old by the time the Clay/Ali fights came alongPosted September 19, 2012 4:49 pm
hey ron…..good thing you said ‘one of the dumbest ever posted’…..Keep in mind….Tark is still posting…so there is still room for an even dumber postPosted September 19, 2012 4:46 pm
Tark….this much is true…
Liston was fighting when Joe Walcott stopped the fight ..and declared Liston knocked out ……much more to do with Nat Fleischer screaming from the ringside …than what was happening.
Liston Ali…the second one was very bad for boxing…anyone who watches it knows that something is amissPosted September 19, 2012 4:43 pm
yeh…..It’s true about Sonny Liston being the baddest man on the planet..during his prime.
Liston’s career started in prison….and was disrupted by several vacations there ….but in Sonny Liston’s Prime…..he was “DA MAN !!’….to this day , nobody knows how old he was …no birth certificate.
hey Bruce….don’t sweat it…we’re used to the mindless rambling of some of these posters.
Still…..Liston was a great fighter who overcame many a barrier to become HW CHAMPION OF THE WORLD . God Rest his SoulPosted September 19, 2012 4:28 pm
My posts were absolutely factual… I’d like to know one wrong or dumb thing Bruce-aka-Moshki could find.Posted September 19, 2012 4:26 pm
One more thing… When Ali and Liston resumed fighting following the knockdown, Liston easily ducked and dodged every followup punch Ali threw. That showed Liston was not hurt or fazed by the knockdown punch and his reflexes were intact.Posted September 19, 2012 4:21 pm
Endorse Bruce’s comment: “TARK’s letter was one of the dumbest ever posted on East Side Boxing Forum”.Posted September 19, 2012 4:20 pm
@Bruce you’re a moron.. Liston got up WITHOUT a count.. There WAS NO COUNT because Ali refused to go to a neutral corner and stood over Liston. In that case the count is suspended until Ali complies with the REFEREE’S ORDER and the RULES OF BOXING to go to a neutral corner. It isn’t smart to get up in a situation like that because you could get tagged by the insubordinate boxer. The reason for the neutral corner rule is to let the referee issue the count without interference and evaluate the floored boxer upon him getting up without risk … As soon as Ali went a neutral corner Liston was up and ready to fight—and that’s why there was no count. Liston was already up when Walcott finally pushed Ali into a neutral corner. Anybody who says anything different never saw the fight. Another referee might have disqualified Ali for insubordination and his flagrant failure to follow the rules …. One more important point—no fighter who wants to throw a fight would get to his feet and resume the fight as Liston did. He would stay down until counted out by the referee.Posted September 19, 2012 3:57 pm
The Ali-Liston fights were a corruption of the corrupt sport of boxing, and they were the perfect vehicle for launching Ali’s bizarre (strikingly unconventional and far-fetched in style or appearance; odd) career.Posted September 19, 2012 2:17 pm
It’s great to see Mr. Charles L. “Sonny” Liston get the respect he deserves. He was vilified during his career, but the United States of America is hardly known for fairly treating uneducated African American males from impoverished backgrounds. Liston used his skill and strength to climb to the top of the boxing world, and became the uncrowned champ when he beat Cleveland Williams in their first fight on April 15, 1959. No disrespect to Floyd Patterson, but that was the true fight of titans, the two best heavyweights of the time. Before being gravely wounded by the bullets of a policeman, Cleveland Williams was incredible. Liston put him down in three, in one of the greatest heavyweight fights of all time. If you haven’t seen it, don’t take my word. Watch it. The fight clearly shows that Liston was not only powerful slugger but a skilled boxer as well.
By the time Muhammad Ali came around in 1964, Liston had declined, and Ali was too fast for him. However, the second Liston-Ali fight was a farce and should have been declared “No Contest!” Ali hit Liston with a legitimate knockdown punch, but not a knockout punch. Jersey Joe Walcott, a wonderful fighter, was an incompetent referee during the fight. He should not have listened to the fat wagging tongue of Nat Fleisher, who kept shouting the fight was over. Ali and Liston had resumed fighting, and should have been allowed to continue.
It was an injustice that Sonny Liston did not get a shot at the heavyweight crown earlier in his career, and an equally great injustice that his rise to the heavyweight championship was not celebrated at the time. Few men have overcome greater obstacles to make it to the top. Let us celebrate his career today, knowing that we cannot rectify the shortcomings of yesterday. Let us continue to struggle against the racism, poverty, child abuse and lack of opportunities for the poor that the great heavyweight champion, Mr. Charles L. “Sonny” Liston experienced!Posted September 19, 2012 1:45 pm
Sure, Liston had unbelievably bad luck; he was well past his prime when he defended his title against a boxer who most consider “The Greatest”. In spite of the gibberish written in the previous letter, Liston in his 2nd fight with Ali, went down and stayed down for the count after Ali threw a punch that might have cracked an egg. Anyone who thinks Liston got a short count can go to YouTube and see for themselves, Liston got no short count. He might have taken a dive, out of fear of the black muslims, but he got no short count. TARK’s letter was one f the dumbest ever posted on East Side Boxing forum.Posted September 19, 2012 12:48 pm
Amen to that .All of that Michael…..I was there and have good memories of Sonny talking to us amateurs in the dressing room at the Sam Houston Collisium . Sonny just got old ,but at his peak he was one of the best …..God bless….kenny weldonPosted September 19, 2012 11:46 am
Liston had unbelievably bad luck in the Ali fights… In the first Ali fight Liston was even on the scorecards but had to quit because of a badly torn left biceps. It’s the same injury Larry Holmes suffered against Ken Norton and it’s a fairly common injury for boxers who jab a lot. In the 2nd Liston-Ali fight Ali refused to go to a neutral corner following the knockdown—and according to the rules the count should have been suspended. Liston never did get a count from referee Walcott—because by the time Walcott finally pushed Ali to a neutral corner Liston was on his feet and ready to fight. When Jack Dempsey floored Gene Tunney he also refused to go to a neutral corner and the count was suspended by the referee. Tunney got up on the delayed count and won the fight. Liston should have been given the same opportunity. When Ali and Liston resumed fighting Ring magazine publisher Nat Fleischer screamed at Walcott that the fight was over. Walcott didn’t call time-out and let Ali and Liston resume fighting on their own while he walked over and talked to Fleischer and the time keeper. They didn’t know the rules, but Fleischer, who was not a boxing official, told Walcott that Liston had been down for 10 seconds and to stop the fight. Astonishingly enough, Walcott did just that. Liston lost his license to box in all 50 states—because even though Liston got up and resumed fighting it was claimed that he faked the knockdown. That made no sense. It was the dumbest and most unjust decision I’ve ever seen in Boxing.Posted September 19, 2012 11:44 am
Liston was the best heavyweight to come out of the 1950’s…. Guys who Marciano wouldn’t fight Liston knocked stiff. It took Marciano 9 sloppy rounds to stop ancient Archie Moore after getting decked by the old man. Patterson stopped Moore twice as fast as Rocky did—and without visiting the canvas. View Liston-Patterson I and II to see how overpowering Liston was for that era. Marciano took 9 rounds to stop the glass-chinned Don Cockell, who feather fisted Jimmy Slade previously iced in 4 rounds. In Cockell’s next fight after Rocky, Nino Valdes KO’d Cockell in 3 rounds. Liston took Valdes out in 3 rounds. For people who say Valdes was washed up, following the Liston fight Valdes traveled to the UK and knocked out Brian London—a heavyweight who challenged both Patterson and Ali for the Heavyweight Championship.Posted September 19, 2012 11:36 am
If Sonny were around boxing in the 80′s and 90′s he would have been a huge star. A lot of things were going on in that era that made Sonny’s association with the mob very un popualr. The cicil rights movement was going on and the NAACP did not want Sonny to be champ because they felt he had a lot of bad publicity. Sonny would have been great in any era. I think he would have beat Tyson and Frazier. He could n=knock you out with his jab.Posted September 19, 2012 10:49 am
They have a video about Sonny Liston I’m going to get and I’m going to look for this book also. I thought Liston was a great fighter but all you hear mostly is the boogie man stories-sometimes you have to research for yourself-RIP SonnyPosted September 19, 2012 8:19 am
Liston cleaned out the division before he got his chance at the title. He beat Cleveland Williams, Nino Valdes, Eddie Machen, Mike DeJohn, Zora Folley etc. He probably reached his peak before his wins over Patterson, but Cus D’Amato froze him out for several years before he got his title shot. In his prime, I think he was a top ten all time hevyweight champion. When he was scheduled to meet Ali the first time, Jim Wicks, manager of Henry Cooper, said they would challenge the winner, but only if it was Ali. He had no interest in his man meeting Liston.Posted September 19, 2012 8:05 am
The Late Heavyweight Champion Sonny C. Liston, one of the most feared fighters in Boxing History. R.I.P. CHAMP!Posted September 19, 2012 7:51 am
Swedish Boxing Fan
I agree. Former undisputed world heavyweight champion Sonny Liston (50-4-0 KO’s 39) deserves a lot more credit then he was given in the past and given now. He was a tough and strong heavyweight champ with a dangerous jab only matched or higher by Larry Holmes, George Foreman or Lennox Lewis (mabey Wladimir in a near future!). Liston was not an angel in his life and had some bad things going on back stage, but he did not deserve the bad things he had to take as a heavyweight boxer. I mean Mohammad Ali (then Cassius Clay) was like so many times a bully and said that Liston was among thiongs like “Uggly, slow and unskilled, worthless, a joke” and etc and I feel Ali treated many boxers without any respect like George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Floyd Patterson, Ingemar Johansson, Larry Holmes etc and for that I have sadly less respect for him as a person. Another thing with Sonny Liston was that it seems like many people forget that George Foreman started his PRO career as Sonnly Liston’s training and sparring partner and that made great for both men but then again Liston sadly was on a falling part of his career but Foreman helped him stay on top a little longer. And another thing, remember the 2nd fight with Ali vs Liston in 1965, Its still a very suspected victory considering that almost all serius observes of that “hammer punch” Ali said he landed on Liston that in true fact never landed + that Liston in overall putc very little effort in that fight witch make you look back at the suspetc of that Liston had strings to the Mafia and that it had to doo with a corrupted betting issue and that the mob had put a lot of money on that Ali should win and Liston take a fall and I must say that after all the readings I have don, it doesent look to be untrue and it was official that Liston had some bad connections then and before. After Sonny Liston lost a tough contest against rising contender Leotis Martin in what would be his second final match for the vacant NABF heavyweight title in 1969, Liston lost a lot of confidence and heart as that was his last shot to get a final shot at the world heavyweight title and even if Liston retired Martin due to an detached retina, a permanent injury that cost him his career, Liston was knocked out cold in that fight and was counted by the major eyes of the public. Liston won one more fight against Chuck Wepner but he knew his career would not be back on top again. Im glad to hear that Sonny Liston will get some serius recognition.Posted September 19, 2012 7:00 am
Marquis of Queensdingleberry
some serious boxing historians will have to match other accounts. sonny was definitely bad mouthed and cast as a villain against floyd patterson. i’ll suspend judgement til more accounts are in. supposedly sonny worked as an enforcer for the mafia, an arm breaker. i dunno. ali whupped him good twice, so what does that tell us.Posted September 19, 2012 5:39 am
About time the man got some respect, seriously! White America gave this man hell, shame he only gets his props all these years later, Sonny is in my best ten heavyweight shake up, man was awesome, plain and simple, peace Sonny.Posted September 19, 2012 3:33 am