Fine EZ E.., I actually think you’re one of the best analysts out there.
But if I let other people’s opinions bias me for or against any boxer, based on the number of people who oppose me, that would be a huge mistake. I would start questioning my own methods. The toughest thing is not being influenced by others’ opinions when you know they’re knowledgeable and experienced—but you believe they’re wrong anyway.
I start with a boxer’s character and attitude.
How strong is he mentally? How confident is he? How well does he take criticism? How does he deal with negativity and negative events in his life? Does he let anything set him back or discourage him in any way? Do personal difficulties make him stronger? Is he a leader? How wise is he? If he’s an underdog, what does he have to say about “expert” opinion?
Then I assess his God given abilities.
How good is his raw talent? How good are his skills? Where does he have holes or weaknesses? Who could take advantage of them? Is he underrated? How badly? What are his chances of springing an upset in this matchup?
Then I look at his team.
What kind of people does he surround himself with? How confident are they? How good are they at putting together the right fights for him? Does he blame them for his failures or does he admit to his mistakes and/or shortcomings? Is he feared? Is he being excluded or avoided by better positioned boxers? What are the chances he’ll eventually get the right fights and eventually come through, given the people in his camp and the roadblocks he faces? … It’s impossible to have all the answers, so I make solid, educated judgments based on everything I know.
I listen to others’ analysis. Maybe they make a good point. Maybe their opinion is uninformed, unknowledgeable—or shaded by bias or personal connections. Boxing is like politics. There are always a ton of back seat drivers knocking the guy in the driver’s seat … and predicting his defeat.Posted November 15, 2013 1:57 pm
TARK, I’ll man up by saying that maybe I got too offended with your “racist” comment. If you in fact already read it again more carefully you’ll see that I DIDN’T say what you thought I said. No problema. I rather talk boxing, been doing it practically ALL my 60+ years. No, that doesn’t make me a Mr. Know It All, although I humbly believe I had the blessing of having more in-deft/insider experience(s) than most fans thanks to the family I was born in. No egotistical arrogance intended. Well.. no problema!Posted November 14, 2013 9:27 pm
TARK Have you ‘gotten it’ yet? No?? Okay, I’ll help you: I said “….. I’m disrespecting Nonito ONLY because I don’t consider him an ATG? (of which I backed my opinion with in-refutable facts) Then you have no argument and are desperately lost. The next you’ll accuse me of is a racist and any other lunacy that comes to your mind.”
Need MORE help?? I could do it in Spanish, my first language, but if you’re having trouble understanding it in English then Espanol won’t help you much at all. Now come with your lunacy, entertain me/us. The world is watching.Posted November 14, 2013 6:54 pm
Com’on TARK, stop playing the part of a …. You can read dude. I DIDN’T say you accused me of being a racist. Read it again & again & again until you get it right. I said that you accused me of being “DISRESPECTFUL” to Nonoito ONLY because I didn’t agree that he was an ATG.
Here’s what I DID say in my post:
Got it?? You’ll stoop to anything. Do I have to remind you said that I “disrespected” Nonito?? WHY?? I never disrespected Nonito, never said he couldn’t fight, nor called him a bum, a stiff, talentless… All I said was that he wasn’t a ATG and stated my reasons. Your making yourself looking really bad here on ESB again, TARK. Like I already said, you’ll stoop to anything. You OUTDID yourself this time but I’m sure you have a couple more “cards” up your sleeve. Very disappointing but nothing new. Later!Posted November 14, 2013 6:42 pm
To me that’s funny EZ E.., I’m accusing you of being a racist??? NEVER!!! WHERE??? I thought I was being very respectful of your opinion, and actually I do respect it. If you don’t believe Donaire is an ATG that’s fine — I just know he is. If he could somehow be matched with some of these other ATG’s his weight he’d beat them or give them tremendous fights.
I’m new school but respect the old school ways. They’re just not as good as the new school.
I’m saying all this and still believe Donaire will lose again to Rigondeaux, who is just a fabulously skilled ATG fighter. I don’t look at an atg who fought 50 years ago and say, “WOW.. There’s no holes in his defense.” I believe I can make strong and accurate evaluations and am not biased toward any generation.Posted November 14, 2013 2:46 pm
Oooops Let’s ‘re-open’ the case for a tiny moment just to say this: TARK, you aint “New School” amigo, you’re ACTUALLY ‘NO SCHOOL’!! LOL!! Now, CASE CLOSED!! (Smile TARK, don’t worry, your face won’t crack and… according to some ‘Old School’ ATG Doctors it’s even healthy!! Later!Posted November 14, 2013 12:23 pm
TARK You don’t have to match him with other older or mare recent fighters of the lower weights, his career speaks for himself and in the eyes of most ALL fight fans that have expressed their opinion (except you naturally) he’s not an ATG. Disrespect?? Me?? You don’t have the faintest notion nor idea about my respect for fighters. You yourself read my article on that very topic less than a month ago. How easily you forget, huh? If you were (and obviously WERE) implying that I’m disrespecting Nonito ONLY because I don’t consider him an ATG (of which I backed my opinion with in-refutable facts) then you have no argument and desperately lost. The next you’ll accuse me of is a racist and any other lunacy that comes to your rather mind. You say that I’m partial to ‘old school’ fighters?? Well, let’s just say that you don’t have a clue of the life of a fighter then and now. BUT.. I STILL work with fighters, NEW SCHOOL FIGHTERS, good prospects like Dulorme, Braulio Santos and others that are beginning to make the grade. If I didn’t respect them or any fighters for that matter, I would’ve left the game altogether a LONG TIME AGO. Disrespect?? Then is it safe to say that you disrespect ‘old school’ fighters too? Get it? ahhh… NO, you probably don’t. Well folks, you can’t say that I didn’t try. BTW, my nephew RONNY (Rolando) who’s visiting us, is an ex-fighter and an avid Nonito fan, and he has no problems with my opinion and agrees, as you have already seen. I guess I/WE can consider this CASE CLOSED!! Later TARK!!Posted November 14, 2013 9:23 am
Happyboy…, I’m new school.. I’m cutting edge science..
Broner is OK… but I’m more interested in Guillermo Rigondeaux… Mikey Garcia… Floyd Mayweather Jr… Gennady Golovkin… Sergei Kovalev… David Haye… and Wladimir Klitschko.
Even if there’s a lot of World Titles an expert can tell who’s the best at the weight.. You don’t become a 4-Division World Champion who smashes people out — along with being the most prominent boxer at your weight in 4 different divisions — if you’re not an ATG caliber fighter… Just won’t happen.Posted November 14, 2013 2:36 am
Ez E – I fully agree with your debate, you on point.Posted November 14, 2013 2:05 am
Tark – In this era of alphabet soup titles and cherrypicking catchweight greats how hard can it be to have titles on several divisions. Back in the day there were Henry Armstrongs now we have Adrian Broners. Quit jiving, hell I thaught you were OL SKOOL.Posted November 14, 2013 2:04 am
Hell NO… I readily admit it when I’m wrong. I don’t think you can be “wrong” about saying Nonito Donaire is an ATG, since nobody is going to see him matched with the other greatest flyweights of all time. Having an opinion that is in the minority doesn’t make anybody wrong … and can give you some very nice winning tickets.
I agree with you — Marquez and Morales are ATG’s.
However Morales has nine (9) losses — including losses to guys who were not good fighters, like Zahir Raheem and David Diaz.. After Morales was knocked out early by Danny Garcia he was flagged for PED use… I don’t think you’ll ever see that with Donaire.
So if Morales makes your list of ATG’s — like he makes mine — then Nonito Donaire certainly should make it also.. At his best he was a better boxer and puncher than Erik.Posted November 13, 2013 9:47 pm
TARK I can mention MANY great fighters of THIS generation that CAN be included as ATG, (besides the recently retired there’s even active ones like Marquez, Morales….. BUT Nonito isn’t one of them. If you want to compare Nonito with them or Armstrong, Robinson,… go right ahead. It’s not a question of disrespect amigo, it’s a question of opinion, and MY opinion of YOUR opinion is that you are WRONG, and so far everyone that has commented on the subject seems to agree that you are way off on this one. But it seems like the only thing you care about is being “right”, right?Posted November 13, 2013 9:00 pm
Look EZ E… Henry Armstrong lost 10 times in his 1st 10 years as a pro boxer.. Armstrong wasn’t exactly a great defender or all around boxer. Study some of his fights and you’ll see all kinds of holes. Guillermo Rigondeaux has had over 400 pro and amateur fights and he hasn’t lost nearly as many times as Armstrong.. GR can seldom be hit solidly by the greatest boxers in the world he’s so slick.. Give him credit. Of course you don’t want to.
Was Ali a great defender???????
How about Ray Robinson losing to a cherry-picked Ralph Jones right after Jones lost 5 straight fights??? Robinson didn’t want a return go with Jones after he was hammered. Study that fight and see how easy Robinson was to hit by a guy who never accomplished much of anything.
I’m not saying Robinson and Ali weren’t ATG’s.. They could be beat though.. I would say maybe you’re generationally biased and don’t give modern day boxers the credit they deserve.. Athletes have gotten better in every sport.. Boxing is no exception.. The science of Boxing has advanced through the generations.. Conditioning, Strength training, and nutrition have also advanced.
Dismissing Donaire as an ATG because you want to disrespect his generation of boxers in comparison to anyone who fought generations ago makes no sense.. The objectivity needed is like picking underdogs — because they’re being underrated by nearly everybody including the experts.. That frequently happens as you know.
You can’t let the opinions of “experts” who never pulled a glove convince you that Boxing is dead — and the modern boxer isn’t a match for those great heros from the “golden ages” when “men were men.” I’m not disrespecting the old timers. I’m saying the modern boxer is just as good as those from generations past … That’s my observation. It may not be yours — but my opinion is certainly a valid one … as I do pretty well evaluating current matchups.Posted November 13, 2013 8:06 pm
Oh yea, Tark vs Ez e haha! I’ve been a Nonito fan since his kayo win over Caveman Vic six years ago. loved it. I won’t say that Nonito is an ATG, I know he is not but he is one of the best in his division, featherweights. RONNYPosted November 13, 2013 7:57 pm
It’s Me, Ernie
Big fan of Nonito’s here, but an ATG he is not. Looks like Tark is switching flavors of throat yogurt to Philipino…Posted November 13, 2013 7:16 pm
TARK You dare compare Donaire mini-career with the likes of Ali, Ray Robinson, Foreman, Leonard… LOL!! Go back and re-read you comments. Well then you might as well include Joe Louis’ loss to Max Schmeling, Henry Armstrong’s loss to Ambers… Look winning titles these days isn’t all what it looks like, that even you know. You make it sound like he’s cleaned out division along the way or has mowed down top/elite opposition along the way, WHICH HE HASN’T! Nothing farther from the truth, amigo. Only in your eyes. It’s close to foolishness to already consider Nonito ATG/HOF worthy. Look, you’re alone on this one, not that it means everything, but nobody will agree, not even a Nonito HUGGER like Lampley. No credible writer, no knowledgeable so called fight expert, no boxing site editor, sports daily, impartial trainer… will dare call Donaire nor his career ATG at this present moment. You can twist, turn, knit pick, distort truths, give Nonito a “4th title”, or whatever BUT… you’re not convincing anybody. Maybe you should write an article about Nonito’s ALL TIME GREATNESS along with his ATG credentials. No it’s not a challenge, just a suggestion so that way you could see the reaction and opinions of your knowledgeable peers and other fight lovers. Maybe their opinions might make me reconsider. OR.. maybe YOU’LL be the one to retract, who knows? Huh? Yeah, I think an article would be rather interesting coming from a someone that considers Nonito an ATG. It would be cool on your part, no kidding, no joking. How about it? Peace to TARK!Posted November 13, 2013 6:19 pm
EZ E…, It did’t MATTER if it was an interim title at 115, Donaire was the best 115-pounder in the world and there were no challenges for him at that weight… He moved ON.
And it’s not the number of title defenses Donaire had at flyweight… It’s the number of title fights he won in his career all told.
Sugar Ray Leonard gets credit for being a Light Heavyweight and Super Middleweight Champion—are you kidding me??? The duplicitous way Leonard won those straps … and who he avoided fighting at the same time???
Foreman had only one (1) successful title defense against a good fighter in his whole career. Most of the time there were much better fighters available to fight than his challengers.
Like I said EZ E—you can knock the crap out of anyone who was ever recognized as an ATG — but you won’t find a handful of better fighters who fought successfully from 112 to 126 in the long history of Boxing … than Nonito Donaire.Posted November 13, 2013 5:08 pm
there not belts today, there paper titles.Posted November 13, 2013 1:37 pm
TARK NO, Nonito didn’t win 4 titles, he won three. Please don’t tell me that you’re gonna give him credit for winning an INTERIM title (115Lbs) too!! In these watered down ‘four titles to pick from’ days?? INTERIM title??
Oh well… And he DIDN’T stay around long enough a flyweight, making only THREE defenses in, get this, TWENTY ONE MONTHS!! I can name quite a few Flyweight champs that made that many defenses in less than ONE YEAR off the top of my head without running to boxrec like: Pascual Perz, Charchai Chionoi, Miguel Canto, Hilario Zapata (my friend) Yuri Arbachakov, Masao Ohba, Mark Johnson, Santos Laciar… You can drop that/your flyweight argument in the nearest trashcan and let’s admit that he NEVER was the 115lb division champion. Yes, he DID impressively KO Montiel for the 118Lb strap. It was awesome!! BUT… you already read my (rather in-refutable) summery of his next SEVEN fights. No, TARK, with all due respects, I don’t see ALL TIME GREATNESS and I personally feel kind’a foolish trying to find some . Like I already said and re-said, ALL TIME GREATNESS is for HOFérs or those considered worthy of the same. Do you honestly consider Nonito HOF worthy?? If you still do, well then cool, that’s your opinion. I don’t. Peace!Posted November 13, 2013 9:55 am
Herron.., Rigondeaux’s reflexes are good… What’s great about him is the skills he’s mastered because of his unreal number of amateur fights and wins.Posted November 13, 2013 3:05 am
EZ E…, I don’t have a long list of ATG’s for ANY division… My list of ATG’s is very short in each division… Who were all the flyweights who were better than Donaire??? I don’t think you’ll find thousands. Nonito Donaire is clearly one of the best fighters who ever won world titles in 4 different divisions starting at 112.. He’s beaten undefeated world champions and his only loss in over 12 is to an undefeated world champion.
Sugar Ray Robinson lost to Ralph Jones—a guy who lost his 5 previous fights, and he didn’t want to a rematch with Jones.. Robinson lost to Joey Maxim who had no speed or power.. He didn’t want a rematch with Maxim.
Donaire wants a rematch with the guy who beat him.
Last time I looked there wasn’t “Thousands” of flyweights who won World Championships in 4 different weight divisions, or went unbeaten as long as ND.Posted November 13, 2013 3:00 am
there not legends today,there prima donnas.Posted November 12, 2013 3:48 pm
TARK Okay, according to you Nonito is an ALL TIME GREAT. So, I imagine that you have an exceptionally long ALL TIME GREATS list in boxing. If Donaire is already an ATG then literally thousands of other fighters should qualify for such a prestigious accolade on your list as well, especially when Nonito is still active and hasn’t closed out his career on nothing close to a “prestigious” note if he chooses to retire today. ATGreatness?? Did his wins over Vic and Montiel ‘seal the deal”? Was that enough for you??
Okay, let’s review his last fights 7 fights: 1) Super FLYWEIGHT OMAR Narvaez is the lightest hitter in boxing. Yes he fought a totally defensive fight but Nonito didn’t exactly look like a tiger going after him. Narvaez was NO offensive threat whatsoever and Nonito looked too tentative at times and even frustrated. All the HBO blame was put on the Argentinian for a this NON-fight, a true STINKER!
2) Wilfredo Vazquez Jr, who had NO amateur experience nor any distinguishing wins of any kind, was coming off a KO loss to aging Jorge “Travieso” Arce. Yes, Nonito did rock him a few times but you can’t say that Jr ran all night from Donaire a la Narvaez. Vazquez Jr did find Nonito kind’a EZ to hit himself, enough to convince one of the officials to cast his vote for him, a rather off 115-112. The fight was packed with NO thrills and few good moments. What has Vazquez Jr done since besides losing to an unknown C level fighter? Nothing! That’s my point. Let’s continue..
3) Jeffrey Mathebula: Another ho-hum affair that the telecast crew tried hard to convince the viewers to believe otherwise. Once AGAINl, to “protect” Nonito’s “NOTORIOUS FLASH MURDEROUS” reputation the blame was put on Mathebula, of course. Next?
4) Toshiaki Nishioka: In HBO’s attempt revamp Nonito’s “FLASH” reputation they convinced Nishioka to come out of retirement, making the fading 37 yr old a Mafia-style “offer he can’t refu$e”, and once again a STINKER that you considered Nonito’s most brilliant boxing performances in Nonito’s defense. I’m sure you’re alone in that assessment as well and never would convince any jury to agree.
5) Is there any doubt that “El Travieso” Arce was a aged and spent fighter and ready for retirement? Even most ALL of the always nationalistically prideful Mexican boxing blogs and sites said that Arce’s chances of victory were SLIM & NONE! Most practical and level headed fans called it as it was, a decent win. HBO used a once great ‘NAME’ fighter to shine up Nonito’s rather tarnishing recent performances.
6) The Rigo fight speaks for itself. You use Rigo outstanding amateur career to cover up Nonito’s disappointing performance, frequently looking like ‘just another amateur’ for Rigo that night. It was what it was. And finally…
7) Vic 2: Were you really once again ATG impressed?? It didn’t win him much ATG recognition to most knowledgeable fight fans, although I almost sure that you wouldn’t agree. There no need to take this fight any further.
TARK, ALL TIME GREAT status is something PERMANENT, something that CAN’T be taken away. Fighters that are HOF consideration worthy. If Erick Morales loses his next 5 fights it wouldn’t matter, he’s already considered an ATG fighter. Same hold true for Floyd if he loses his next couple of fights, even the Klits. Now, would you consider Nonito an ATG under the SAME circumstances?? If he loses his next coule of fights and retires? If he retired TODAY would you consider him an ATG,? Huh? If your answer is ‘NO’ then he was NEVER an ATG to begin with!! Do you follow me?Posted November 12, 2013 12:40 pm
if they have 15 fights today there a legend. LOL.Posted November 12, 2013 10:39 am
TARK: “It’s not reflexes.. GR can be hit.. But he has 400 amateur fights, and most at a very high level”
That’s right…maneuvers and tactics that most fighters have to think about have become muscle memory for the two time gold medal winner…Rigo can be hit, but so can any fighter…we’ve even seen Floyd Mayweather hit recently against crafty fighters who set up their shots well like Cotto and Mosley.
But an opponent has to set up his shots well because of Rigo’s reflexes.
Rigondeaux has some of the best reflexes in boxing.Posted November 12, 2013 5:09 am
How can Darchynian be his ‘long time nemesis’. He won their one and only encounter.Posted November 12, 2013 4:48 am
@ Herron…, “Guillermo is a special fighter. Not only does he have the best reflexes in boxing, comparable to Floyd Jr.”
It’s not reflexes.. GR can be hit.. But he has 400 amateur fights, and most at a very high level.. Rigondeaux has been developing his skills for decades.. Basically he had no childhood other than boxing. The kid was a boxing fiend. He’s like Lomachenko—he loved it.
He has so much natural endurance and physical toughness that adapting to the pro game was as easy as pie for him. Usually there’s a long transition, but not in his case. He gains strength the longer the fight goes — like a marathon runner who blows past everyone in the last 6 miles. That’s why I believe the rematch will be tough for Donaire. Rigondeaux has had about 80 of them and really likes them.Posted November 12, 2013 2:43 am
What if the guy losses his next fight?Posted November 12, 2013 2:27 am
100% true.Posted November 12, 2013 2:26 am
TARK, you can’t declare Rigondeaux to be an “ATG” withOUT the body of work to validate his presumed talent? skills? resilience? resourcefulness? longevity? in fact, why ask him to fight at all? why not simply host a blowout autograph-signing and retire him with a lump-sum payment and guaranteed entry into the HOF as the GOAT? otherwise, “that’s why they have the fights” is the actual adage and prevailing wisdom among experienced fght-fans. imaginary scenarios, no matter how wisely produced, can’t prove what hasn’t actually happened. bottomline, Rigondeaux has yet to achieve actual greatness.Posted November 12, 2013 1:43 am
Hidalgo: “Rigo didn’t just beat him, he dominated Nonito. His technical superiority over Donaire was astounding.”
Rigo is a beast…no doubt about it. But Nonito is not and never has been an effective aggressor. He didn’t study fight film and had no real game plan going into the first bout with guillermo.
Will he come into the ring more prepared for a fighter like Rigondeaux if a rematch is scheduled? Absolutely.
Will that equate to a Donaire victory? Not necessarily
Guillermo is a special fighter. Not only does he have the best reflexes in boxing, comparable to Floyd Jr., but he also has crushing, one punch knock-out power at 122 or 126.
That means that if you cannot close the distance on him effectively, you will be following around a very dangerous puncher who can punish you as you’re trying to work your way inside.
…which is what happened in the first fight between Nonito and Rigo.
What Donaire has to do to be more successful in a rematch is use his athleticism and move laterally. Guillermo isn’t an effective aggressor either. He has to use the jab, make it an amateur fight for the first three rounds or so, and force Rigo out of the pocket.
Because there is no way Donaire will be able to pressure guillermo proficiently…not unless he works at improvement in this area for an entire year.
He has to use his strengths to his advantage…something he didn’t do in April.Posted November 12, 2013 12:26 am
EZ E… “Wilde fought what was around, OUTWEIGHED by pounds difference that these days is totally unheard of & not even permitted.”
I don’t think that’s true.. Floyd was ready to give up 20 pounds to Canelo.. Haye will probably give up 40 pounds to Fury.. If you’re 3 times better than your opponent you can afford to give up quite a few pounds … and Wilde knew this very well.
But that makes no difference. A lot of the fights Wilde fought were Butter Bea, Lamar Clark, or Sean O’Grady type fights… Fighting guys who are around is one thing. Fighting guys with terrible or non-existent records just to pad your record up is somewhat of a scam.
My points are valid… I’m not coming off the deep end or anything. You might not agree with my argument, but I believe Rigondeaux and Donaire are ATG fighters, especially when you look back through history and see what’s there. I’ve lived through a couple so-called ATG eras and sometimes nostalgia rules supreme for some of the old timers from those days. It definitely affects their judgment.Posted November 12, 2013 12:19 am
EZ E., Rigondeaux vs Donaire II is not THE BATTLE OF ALL TIME GREATS!!! … They are not the greatest ATG’s of all time.
It is simply a fight between 2 ATG fighters… That fairly unusual.
Rigondeaux was already a 2 time Olympic Gold Medal Winner and undefeated Professional World Champion when he fought Donaire — who was a 4-Division World Champion who hadn’t been beaten in over 10 years.
If you look through the history of their divisions you won’t find a hand full of guys who would beat them… To me, that makes them ATG’s.Posted November 11, 2013 11:55 pm
TARK No matter how you “shake it & bake it” in your attempt to justify it, to call a rematch between a 10 FIGHT Rigo vs a faltering Nonito “THE BATTLE OF ALL TIME GREATS” is daring and beyond comprehension. Seems to me that maybe you’re building up Rigo to justify your admiration of Donaire, or whatever. You can signal out Wilde if you wish, he fought what was around, OUTWEIGHED by pounds difference that these days is totally unheard of & not even permitted. Either way, that doesn’t change things, your Rigo vs Nonito “BATTLE OF THE ALL TIME GREATS” declaration is way off course, IMHO.Posted November 11, 2013 11:06 pm
Nonito “Don Nadie” may faces Rigo in 30 fights….and Rigo would beat him again, and again….
Nonito “Don Nadie” is the No. 1 in the list of the most overreacted boxers in the last 10 years
1- Nonito “Don Nadie”
@EZ E.., “TARK You consider a rematch between Rigo and Donaire a “fight between 2 ATG fight fighters”?? ATG?? Well, maybe that partly explains why we have a difference of opinion this time. Personally, you placing them in ALL TIME GREATNESS is a bit too much for me to accept. But, it’s your opinion and I’ll accept it as that. No problema.”
It’s no exaggeration to call them ATG’s.
How many Flyweight Champions have become Featherweight Champions besides Fighting Harada and Manny Pacquiao? They won world titles farther apart in weight. But Harada lost 7 fights in a 10-year career—and Donaire was undefeated longer than that. All Harada’s winning title fights came in Japan. Harada fought for 10 years Harada never fought anyone with the slick southpaw skills of Rigondeux. Jofre complained about being badly weight drained in Japan and thought the scales were not quite right..
Harada, Pacquiao, Rigondeaux and maybe a few others were ATG’s around that weight. I’ve watched most all of them and don’t see many better than Nonito and Rigondeaux in the entire history of Boxing.
You said Jimmy Wilde was an ATG. I respect your opinion, but look at the class of boxer Wilde fought and many were really lousy. Donaire could fight 10 guys in one day with the lack of background and accomplishment many of Wilde’s opponents had. A couple tough novices beat Wilde. There’s far less record padding today than was the practice in those days. Of course it still exists.Posted November 11, 2013 9:01 pm
BTW Joseph, I know I already said it once, but Nonito’s power really is incredible. I kinda feel sorry for Vic.Posted November 11, 2013 8:32 pm
“But to write off a fighter like Nonito after a couple of lackluster performances seems silly to me.”
Well Joseph, I certainly didn’t say that. I just know that Rigondeaux would beat him if they fought again. Rigo didn’t just beat him, he dominated Nonito. His technical superiority over Donaire was astounding. Rigondeaux walked into the ring with 11 pro bouts under his belt and he dominated one of the highest-rated boxers in the world at the time. That’s no small feat.
Yes, I agree with you regarding Darchinyan and his preparation for this fight, but I also haven’t forgotten that Vic had lost two of his last four fights–for a total of three losses in his last seven bouts–before facing Donaire. Yet Donaire looked unpolished for most of the fight.
Rigo’s win took a lot out of Nonito. He destroyed Donaires halo of invincibility. He broke Nonito’s confidence. He shattered his championship reign and he left Nonito doubting himself in a number of ways–Nonito said so himself.
Sure, Donaire beat Darchinyan with an impressive TKO. But the new king of the hill is Guillermo Rigondeaux and Nonito Donaire has a tough climb ahead of him if he wants to regain that throne.Posted November 11, 2013 8:30 pm
evil vic ruined nonito. nonito will never be the samePosted November 11, 2013 6:54 pm
Donaire is just an overrated fighter that was in a bunch of show case fights. His career is based of great matchmaking to poor matchmaking. He either looks good or looks lowsy. Unfortunately the fights he looks good against are against fighters that where on long layoffs and then about to retire, to smaller fighters.Posted November 11, 2013 4:48 pm
Hidalgo: “There are no adjustments Nonito can make to beat Guillermo and I believe that Donaire himself believes that. Rigondeaux didn’t beat him with luck, he beat Nonito with pure superior skill.”
That’s what most seem to think after a dominant performance, but that’s not the reality of boxing.
With Nonito’s athleticism and power, he can defeat anyone at 122 and 126 on any given day. If he just doesn’t get baited into becoming the aggressor, the fight with Rigondeaux is a much different match-up.Posted November 11, 2013 1:38 pm
It’s pretty obvious that Vic was much more focused than Nonito for this fight…it was a match-up that he had been waiting for since 2007.
But to write off a fighter like Nonito after a couple of lackluster performances seems silly to me.
I think he’s the only fighter who can knock-out his opponent and get drilled by everyone afterwards.
It’s entirely up to him…if Nonito had just followed instruction and used lateral movement to set traps for Darchinyan, the fight wouldn’t have been so difficult for him.
But more credit should be given to Vic for his gritty performance. His feints, touch jabs, and sporadic left hands were freezing Nonito and making him a more tentative fighter.
The way boxing is, I wouldn’t doubt it if Agbeko pulled off the upset and beat rigondeaux by applying pressure and outworking him for twelve rounds.
Judge slowly, guys.Posted November 11, 2013 1:31 pm
Nonito needs to find a new career. It requires a crazy muthafcker to choose a career that your daily activities required to get hit in the face, starve yourself to make weight, run for hours and hours, and get school by more skill fighter while they stick you with right hands, left hooks, and uppercuts….Dude just work in McDonald’s..Posted November 11, 2013 1:21 pm
Vic is a homo. He acts like one excusing himself from defeat. Nonito needs to retire or he will regret continue in a sport that requires 110 percent commitment. He sounds like he is happy with his accomplishments then move on..Posted November 11, 2013 1:14 pm
HIDALGO Agreed!! That’s basically my point.Posted November 11, 2013 1:08 pm
“Donaire dug deep and found a way to win while it wasn’t his night…the great fighters do that.”
Joe, I thought Vic became over-confident and careless and left a wide-open door to his chin for Nonito to walk through. I also thought Donaire looked very dull and unmotivated last night. I mean, have you ever seen a guy less excited after a TKO win?Posted November 11, 2013 12:47 pm
Tark, EZ E, Donaire won’t make another fight with Rigondeaux. There are no adjustments Nonito can make to beat Guillermo and I believe that Donaire himself believes that. Rigondeaux didn’t beat him with luck, he beat Nonito with pure superior skill.Posted November 11, 2013 12:44 pm
tark is right on with this one…Vic fought a great fight is much better than the kind of treatment he receives within the industry.
Donaire dug deep and found a way to win while it wasn’t his night…the great fighters do that.Posted November 11, 2013 10:18 am
acording to tark,everyone today is an ATG.Posted November 11, 2013 8:59 am
TARK You consider a rematch between Rigo and Donaire a “fight between 2 ATG fight fighters”?? ATG?? Well, maybe that partly explains why we have a difference of opinion this time. Personally, you placing them in ALL TIME GREATNESS is a bit too much for me to accept. But, it’s your opinion and I’ll accept it as that. No problema. Peace!Posted November 11, 2013 8:38 am
TARK I don’t know. What I said was if the SAME Nonito that fought Vic a couple of days ago, then yes, it would be a long night for him vs a fighter like Salido. Salido would’ve taken a punch better than Vic due to his natural size. Now, if a BETTER version of Saturday’s Nonito shows up then, yes, Nonito should win, I agree. Nonito hasn’t been looking all that “Filipino Flash” impressive lately. Actually, out of his last 7 fights (since Montiel) he’s looked good in actually TWO, vs a spent and small Arce and 37 yr old Nishioka. In the other five (vs Vazquez Jr, Mathebula, Narvaez, Rigo and Vic 2) he’s looked far less than p4p sensational. Maybe I’m being over critical, or.. is it that I’m simply calling it as I see it considering the evidence Nonito himself has supplied me/us with? Is it too early to say that “the proof is in the pudding”? A matter of opinion I guess. The old Nonito is what we ALL want & love to see. Has the extra weight taken a toll on him in general? It surely wouldn’t be the first time that a great fighter loses his luster (and ‘greatness’) as he ascends in weight divisions. Anyway, his next fight should shed some light and answer a few questions. Peace!Posted November 11, 2013 8:27 am
You’re sick Ernie… One sick puppy.Posted November 11, 2013 2:45 am
Mork’s a serious customer. You want to be sure before you go down that avenue. Get your medical insurance in place.Posted November 11, 2013 12:53 am
If this fight was supposed to be a gauge for Donaire to see where he’s at after the Rigo fight, then his goose is cooked. He publicly admitted that he was thinking about quitting the match. It seems he has an abnormally high opinion of himself, though, so it’s not hard to imagine this win will do wonders for his confidence, but doggonit I saw absolutely no improvement, no skills and no intensity from him at all. He’s got “stepping stone” written all over him, and it was surprising that Max Kellerman subtly wrote him off during the commentary.Posted November 10, 2013 11:42 pm
If Donaire and Rigo fight again I hope it is in a tiny ring.
Not because I want Donaire to win, I don`t, give me a Cuban over a Yank any day.
I want Rigo to outbox the $h1t out of him for 3 minutes each round, not just the 30 seconds of the round when he decides he is happy Donaire is sufficiently unbalanced or out of postion.
I`m not a phillistine, I understand why he does it, but this is pro boxing.
I can admire the guys skill in doing just enough to win round after round safely. I can`t love the attitude or the spirit of it though.Posted November 10, 2013 11:10 pm
EZ E…, Donaire will kill Salido. That fight is not even a contest.
The only thing that concerns me about Donaire is the hesitancy and tentativeness he displayed against Darchinyan. He needs to get VD cured in 3 rounds or less.. He doesn’t have the jab he used against Darchinyan in their 1st fight. He just had a bad night.
What about his left shoulder? Did he have the operation on it? Did he regain his strength in the shoulder? … It doesn’t seem like it to me. He doesn’t talk about it.
But he can beat Salido even with the bad shoulder… Salido can’t get out of his own way, and doesn’t need to share a ring with a great power puncher who can box.
I just want to see the return between Rigondeaux and Donaire. That’s a great rematch between 2 ATG fighters. Not a fight you see every day. Donaire is a great competitor—so it GR is definitely the guy he’s gunning for.Posted November 10, 2013 10:31 pm
I can`t help thinking that world champions in all the other weight classes are just phuking glad that Rigondeaux isn`t at their weight because he is perfectly suited to make anyone look an utter kuuuuunt.
Donaire probably isn`t as much of a kuuuuunt as Rigo made him look but he does look a bit one dimensional.
The question is – do you want to see the fact he is one dimensional exposed again vs a brilliant boxer, or do you want to see that one dimension put to use in entertaining fights with guys who bring pressure.
Myself I actually quite like Donaire, I just wouldn`t have him in p4p lists.Posted November 10, 2013 10:14 pm
Donaire was fortunate to get a win. He will get destroyed should he fight Rigondeaux. Darchyniyan blew it. He had it all but wrapped up and blew it.Posted November 10, 2013 9:29 pm
TUMBO/TARK Although Nonito was my pick I did say that Darch would give him a harder time than many fans expected. Yeah, I was also rooting for Vic and actually glad that he was making my pick all wrong. As for Nonito… ya know guys,, it kind’a seems he’s going the Juanma route. Makes me now wonder which Nonito did Rigo actually school?? For some reason it kind’a takes some of the shine out of Rigo’s win, if you get where I’m coming from. All in all, he looked bad. Rigo vs Nonito 2? hmmm… I’d rather see Nonito vs Salido, and.. if by chance last night’s version of Donaire steps into the ring, Salido will run him over. Paz!!Posted November 10, 2013 9:23 pm
I meant beating a great fighter doesn’t make you a great fighter-he’s the real deal though-very good skills-I just need to see more-he’s a top fighter but there’s alot more he need to do IMOPosted November 10, 2013 5:12 pm
Tark-I’m not as quick to call a guy w/ only one really good fighter on his resume great. He did great things as an ameture-but he’s in thr pro’s now. As it stands he’s a very good fighter like I said now if you and everyone else wanna call him great then so be it. I’m not saying anything bad about him just cause I need to see more wins vs very good fighters-beating Donaire doesn’t make you great-being a great fighter doesn’t make you great-alot of ameture wins doesn’t make you a great pro boxer. Don’t get it twisted though cause I enjoy watching his skills on display-I like him but just cause he defeated Donaire doesn’t make him great nor the best until he does the same to them.Posted November 10, 2013 5:09 pm
Jaw Breaker.., You’re underrating Rigondeaux.. He’s a great fighter.. He was knocked down with a hard drivng straight left, but he wasn’t hurt.. It’s unlikely Donaire will catch him like that again.
If Rocky Martinez fought Mikey Garcia 6 more times he’d never catch him with another right hand as good as the one that floored Mikey. Mikey wasn’t hurt. He was embarrassed.. Your opponent might miss 700 punches—but if he’s a world champion he’s probably going to land something on you.
You need to take a few because nobody gets out of that caliber of fight without getting hit … You have to judge Rigo on his overall skills.Posted November 10, 2013 5:02 pm
WTF ever happened to Gamboa, anyway? does he have the prime to squander? i’ve still got a beef with this Mamon for bailing-out of the Rios bout at the last minute and to tell the truth, that’s the last time i can recall him registering on my radar.Posted November 10, 2013 4:54 pm
Because I am a fan of the sport. Gamboa is garbage and Donaire overrated. If they didn’t claim to be something they werent then they wouldn’t get hated on. Don’t go into a fight and lose and then after claim injuries that apparently didn’t bother you till you lost.Posted November 10, 2013 4:19 pm
as good as many of us want to believe Darchinyan truly is, two bouts and two KO losses irrefutably make Donaire the greater between the two of them. Vic’s inherent bravado may be the fatal flaw. there were moments in this bout when he intentionally flirted with Nonito’s Left to score his own powershots. as if he didn’t know what everybody else already knew: NObody can recklessly exchange v. Donaire. the outcome of their first bout is “Exhibit A” of why that argument is true and there’s plenty more in that archive of Nonito highlights. i will definitely not fault Vic for his killer-instinct and always wanting to win decisively, but it’s that same fan-friendly profile that Nonito was able to exploit to re-dent Darcinyan’s chin a second and final time. two bouts, two KO wins, Donaire must go down as the better fighter.Posted November 10, 2013 4:16 pm
Rigo is good but lets not over due it guys-him and that other guy with alot of ameture fights. Donaire was schooled but he’s clearly a puncher and w/ punching power like that he’s never out. He dropped Rigo pretty good and that wasn’t even his best-Rigo was standing str8 up so Im shocked Donaire didn’t put more steam on the punch. Rigo is a good fighter-but we’ve seen him hurt by lesser fighters-just cause he defeated Donaire doesn’t mean he can’t get his wings clipped oh yeah plus he’s kinda old-all in all Rigo is a pretty got damn good fighter.Posted November 10, 2013 3:51 pm
Donaire.., “I’ll fight Rigondeaux next.”
He’ll take another beating — but you have to hand it to Nonito. He refuses to duck fighters who he KNOWS have a great chance to beat him.
Unlike: Hopkins… Martinez… Quillin, and Stevenson.
We need more professional boxers like Nonito Donaire.Posted November 10, 2013 3:47 pm
Peej you are the definition of a hater. All you do is talk about how this guy is garbage and that guy is overrated. Why do you even watch the sport?Posted November 10, 2013 3:44 pm
Gamboa is garbage. He rarely fights and when he does it is against nobodies, and of course he gets knocked down in every fight. To chinny for Garcia. Garcia would get rid of him quickly.Posted November 10, 2013 3:31 pm
I don’t think Rigo would do any better against Vic and Vic could possible beat Rigo. You guys at like Vic is not a good fighter some C level dude. Not the case Vic is still an A- fighter and I don’t care who you put in front of him your in for a fight.Posted November 10, 2013 3:28 pm
Ricky Burns tore Martinez up so I’ve read. Last night was my 1st time seeing Martinez and he didn’t seem all that good to me. With being said he was still able to knock Garcia down-Garcia is a good.fighter but IDK about him beating Gamboa although I would live to see it. That fight should be easy to make and its about got damn time we got a.chance to see Gamboa in a pick em fight. Its like all its ever been was tune up after tune up for him and he almost lost some of them. Garcia is talkn bout moving up to 135 to fight him-thats whats up. I’m glad to hear a fighter talking about who they want to fight next instead of the whoever my team wanys me to fight. They should tell the fighter who to call out b4 the fight so they don have to say whoever my promoter says.Posted November 10, 2013 2:56 pm
i think everyone forgets this meant more to vic ( who is a world class fighter) than it did to donaire and thats probably why vic did so well. vic will be kicking himself forever for letting that one go though!!! the boxing ring is no place for someone who doesnt want to be there – im donaires number 1 fan but i would rather him retire than go into it half arsedPosted November 10, 2013 2:28 pm
I tipped Vic for the upset win and was soooooooo close. However in the end it was a victory to Donaire and I was wrong in my prediction. The fight did show that Donaire has absolutely no chance against Rigo in a rematch and I would favour 1 fight Lomanchenko to wipe the floor with him also.Posted November 10, 2013 2:25 pm
Donaire didn’t convince anyone that he wanted Rigo in his post fight comments. Bottomline, even though I was pulling for Vic; Doaire regardless if he didn’t look good or not he won a hard fought victory over a very tough Vic Darchinyan. Max and the rest of y’all didn’t think to much of Vic-if Donaire had a rough fight or lost to Vic he’s done lol. It’s not that Donaire is.worst-Vic is just that good-he’s defeated alot of good.fighters.Posted November 10, 2013 2:15 pm
Nornito don’t want it with Rigo. don’t let him fool you. he knows that he has no chance.IPosted November 10, 2013 2:07 pm
I was pulling for Vic-he showed he has what it takes to beat Donaire but he like I felt he was getting robbed if it went to the scorecards. Vic wanted this win so badly and I feel from him-he was so close. I’m not one to jump ship on a fighter but I’ve always stated Donaire was sone what of a hype job-pretty good fighter but he hasn’t done enough to be so high on the p4p charts nor win FOTY. Vic has always fought a who’s who of boxing and never received the props he truelly deserved. A couple things about the two-Donaire is unsure of himself-Vic is quite sure of himself as fighting is in his bones. Both are HOF fighters but as it stands Donaire will be ranked higher on an all time list than Darchinyan at this time. Vic can pull an Erick Morales though-MAB beat Erick in their trilogy but Erick was able to do something that MAB couldn’t and that was beat the Pacman. Vic could possibly take a gamble at other rrally good fighters and if he wins a few he could pass Donaire in ranks.Posted November 10, 2013 1:57 pm
The Mad Scientist
Pretty good fights last night, its been a while for HBO..really enjoyed Mikey’s performance, one of my personal favorite top fighters in his respective weight class along with Juan F. Estrada, Leo Santa Cruz, Rigo and Danny Garcia..Posted November 10, 2013 1:52 pm
It’s Me, Ernie
Later Vic…Posted November 10, 2013 1:41 pm
Donaire is no longer a work in progress. He is what he is and thats it. Networks will still put Vic on TV because of the style he brings and he brings it every time. Unfortunately he got caught late and couldn’t finish out the round. But Donaire will go back to the senior tour I am pretty sure. Those are the only fighters he looks good against. And he doesn’t always look good against either.Posted November 10, 2013 1:13 pm
Difficult to say at this point, but Donaire appears to be work in progress at this point. He was obviously too cautious; though that was perhaps due to Darchinyan somewhat deceptive power. But even then, he didn’t seem to be ready for a rematch against Guillermo Rigondeaux. ‘It is one thing to call out the devil, and it is quite another to see him coming.’ Donaire does continue to have the same power as he did before his lost to Rigondeaux, but even with his new and somewhat average “boxing style”, no way will he outbox Guillermo.
My hats off to Darchinyan, as he learned a lot from his previous encounter with Donaire. I had the fight even before the stoppage, though IMO it could have gone either way. Both fighters were cautious, but Darchinyan held back the most as he didn’t want to get KO. Of course, you don’t want to get KO, but making that your main focus can have the opposite effect. It was just a matter of being caught with a good punch as kept leaning back with nowhere to go if something hard landed, which it did.
Darchinyan does have much left in his tank, so I presume he’ll continue fighting. Donaire needs another opponent, other than a pure boxer like Rigondeaux, to get his confidence back. If he does rematch Rigondeaux and loses, it’ll be difficult for him to climb back into contention.Posted November 10, 2013 1:10 pm
I agree with Hechog.Posted November 10, 2013 12:42 pm
Donaire seems to be regressing. He could have done much better in this fight if he would have stayed away from vics left. Every time Donaire would circle to his right Vic would clock him, and he kept doing it.Posted November 10, 2013 12:40 pm
Agree with Te Tumbo 100%. I was disappointed that Vic didn’t have one more great win left in him but he’s still HOF worthy in my estimation. And Donaire is clearly in decline. His heart isn’t in it, he’s not training with any fire, and he’ll probably lose the next time he fights on the elite level. No reason for the Rigo rematch because I just don’t see the point right now. Maybe if Donaire gets a couple of solid wins where he’s not losing up until a KO but I think we’ve already seen the best of him.Posted November 10, 2013 12:30 pm
“Vic will kick himself in the a$$ for the rests of his life for this loss”. Vic must’ve broken his left leg after doing since last night. today will belong to his right leg and so it will go for at least the next year. Vic pulled a major boner with this careless loss. unless he’s not too proud to return to the Friday Night Fight circuit, i don’t know who or where his fights will be televised again. it would’ve been better if Donaire had simply dominated and made short work of Darchinyan but to lose a fight that was his to win? an extremely bitter pill for Vic to swallow. poor guy.Posted November 10, 2013 12:30 pm
“Vic was on his way to the UD ”
Yeah he was Te Tumbo, but he got careless with over-confidence. It’s not like Donaire was throwing unseeable punches.
Vic will kick himself in the a$$ for the rests of his life for this loss.Posted November 10, 2013 12:22 pm
I meant to say “Darchinyan almost put him down and he hurt him…”Posted November 10, 2013 12:20 pm
“He seemed lethargic, his accuracy was off (until the KO punch), he clowned around a bit. He pulled it off ”
Wearerofall the belts, he looked “loose” too. He was not in as good of physical condition as he should have been. Vic looked ready to fight. Nonito looked like he needed more training and it showed.
As for Nonito’s clowing–Donaire almost put him down and he hurt him. That’s why Donaire was trying to hoodwink everyone with that hanging on the ropes trick of his. It was easy to see through, though.Posted November 10, 2013 12:20 pm
It was an unimpressive performance by Donaire. What remains impressive about him is his power. He’s a little guy who has iron fists. He literally knocks people silly. He knocks the sense out of them.
But he’ll have to fight a lot better than he did last night if he plans to remain relevant at the elite level. And he’ll have to be so much more than a one-punch KO artist.
If he fights Rigondeaux again. He’ll lose again.Posted November 10, 2013 12:17 pm
Donaire is an overrated fighter. He won’t rematch Rigo and probably will go back on the senior tour once again. Then folks will be fooled and start claiming he is the best again or should be at the top of P4P list.Posted November 10, 2013 11:59 am
THE REAL AMERICAN OAK
Great comeback! This is what real fight fans like to see. Ebb and flow and then a definitive end. BOOM!Posted November 10, 2013 11:49 am
“Nonito’s heart, grit, and physical durability was off the charts inspirational.” Really? Look I love Nonito but his performance last night was awful. His win was essentially a hail mary pass that was miraculously completed. I’m glad for him but his showing last night was anything but inspirational. He seemed lethargic, his accuracy was off (until the KO punch), he clowned around a bit. He pulled it off but I still have serious doubts about how much passion he has left. Maybe after saving himself he’ll finally wake up and get back to the Donaire we all love. If he doesn’t he will suffer another loss to Rigondeaux the same way Vic did last night.Posted November 10, 2013 11:36 am
the tale of two posters:” te tumbo
“Vic just can’t get away from a punch that’s why I knew and predicted the fight wasn’t going the dictance and that it was going to be a repeat and not revenge.”……….Punch, yes you did:” Punch
Vic was on his way to the UD i anticipated but wasn’t able to maintain a tight defense for 10 rounds. otherwise, he was bedeviling Donaire before the final dramatic TKO. my prediction was unfolding as anticipated until the final outcome. they don’t call it the “theater of the unexpected” for nothing. i did not expect for Darchinyan to once again be stopped by the one punch he was dedicated to avoiding. ultimately, Darchinyan is an offensive fighter and when he risked offense, he risked Nonito’s one-punch firepower. end of the primetime road for Vic.Posted November 10, 2013 11:28 am
te tumbo and SREDMOND are the worse predictors ever. nobody come close……….maybe Old Yank.Posted November 10, 2013 11:27 am