LOL Gonz! You da man!
Gonzo the Dragonborn – Part Man, Part Vulture, Part Baboon, Part Machine
Squared Circle.., I respect you, but Floyd won the first Castillo fight easily. He had a torn rotator cuff which hampered him during the fight — but all the judges scored it for Mayweather by a wide margin.. He only fought Castillo again to show what he could do with a healthy arm.. Don’t tell me you believe the scorecards for the rematch … they’re laughable.
Lederman and Rafael are a couple of idiots who never boxed and don’t know damned thing about boxing.
Lederman had the Toney-Jirov fight a draw and Toney outpunched Jirov by 150 punches — and knocked him down and nearly out. All the judges had Toney by a wide margin. Lederman had Hatton ahead of Mayweather after 6 rounds, including giving Hatton the first round where Floyd outscored him 21-5… He continued to think a left hook landed that the slo-mo replay showed missed completely… I swear Lederman can’t see.
Just because Floyd is ducking Pacquiao and other good fighters at the age of 37 onward… doesn’t negate everything he’s ever accomplished.
Marciano and Calzaghe didn’t win world titles in 5 weight divisions or fight as many world champions as Mayweather. Obviously their boxing skills were not of a par with Floyd’s — I think even idiots like Lederman and Rafael would admit that.
And I could GAF what anybody else says about Mayweather-Castillo II… You don’t score punches that land after the bell, below the belt, on the back, on the back of the head, and while you’re holding with the other arm… Castillo was almost as big a fouler as Lennox Lewis… and he had a friendly referee.Posted May 14, 2014 4:29 pm
Lion King, I like you, but YOU are not objective. You’re a floyd hater.Posted May 14, 2014 10:11 am
Squared-Circle Real Talk (a.k.a. LionKing)
“Sorry Herron… I meant to say Squared Circle made the comment. A lot of people say Floyd’s first Castillo fight was close, but it was a UD that Floyd won by 4 or 5 points on all cards. That’s not a very close fight.”
Wrong, TARK! Almost every knowledgeable boxing analyst, commentator and writer has said it was a close, competitive fight. Lederman scored it 115-111 for JLC; Lampley and Merchant both had JLC winning on their cards; Foreman did NOT disagree with them. Dan Rafael scored the fight 114-114.
Floyd’s hometown crowd in Vegas loudly booed and jeered the decision for nearly ten minutes. Millions of hardcore boxing fans KNOW that it was a close fight, and millions of educated fans truly believe that JLC deserved the win. The decision was highly controversial, so the rematch was 100% absolutely necessary. If it wasn’t necessary, PBF and his trainers and handlers never would’ve agreed to the rematch.
But you’ve always been a huge FMJ fan, so I’m not sure you’re capable of being objective about the JLC and Maidana fights. I’ve even seen you call him the GOAT and “best of his generation.” Although recently you’ve admitted that he’s been avoiding PacMan for years and continues to avoid the best competition in the world (Pac, Lara and 3G at 154lbs, etc.). Actually, FMJ has avoided 3-5 fighters and the list is rapidly growing with dangerous guys like Thurman calling him out.
Do you really think that FMJ will fight PacMan, Lara (if he beats Canelo), 3G or Thurman before he retires??? That’s highly doubtful and you know it. I’ve seen you write similar statements.
So, here’s how my logical mind processes information:
Calzaghe and Marciano retired undefeated, so by the pretzel logic of Floyd fan-boys, we should be calling them the “best of their generations” and the two GOATs. (Unless of course Floyd retires undefeated, then he’ll automatically take their titles away and become the one true GOAT). Shoot… he’s already surpassed them and every other boxer in history. After all, he’s obviously “TBE”… LOL.Posted May 14, 2014 9:44 am
Squared-Circle Real Talk (a.k.a. LionKing)
Joseph Herron: I’ll take that as a compliment, so thank you very much, my friend. I’m not looking for exact percentages, just more of a clearly defined breakdown of how much weight each of the four scoring criteria should carry.
I appreciate you referring me to that book, ”You be the Judge: Judging Professional Boxing for the TV Boxing Fan.” That sounds like a good, quality read. It would be really cool if you can get a respected judge on your show sometime. I’d be interested in hearing what he has to say, so would do my best to tune in for that. BTW… would you be able to direct me to the same, official handbook that pro judges use? (Is it the ABC handbook?) I’d be very interested in reading that as well.
The scores you post are never accurate Box. You don’t know crap about scoring fights or you wouldn’t have to make revisions each time you watch. An expert scores a fight, and he could watch it again a thousand times and his score would never change, because he doesn’t let anything get by him the first time.Posted May 14, 2014 6:02 am
“Then you don’t know how to score a fight, Boxtra$wipe.”-Nope. I score by FACTS and YOU score by emotions HissyfitdalgoPosted May 13, 2014 11:18 pm
Sorry Herron… I meant t say Squared Circle made the comment. A lot of people say Floyd’s first Castillo fight was close, but it was a UD that Floyd won by 4 or 5 points on all cards. That’s not a very close fight.
The funny thing is the rematch was a total blowout. Floyd won every round … and the judges scored it like it was a nip-n-tuck affair. The way the judges scored the fight is unbelievable.
What happens is the guy who’s rigging the fight says, “If a round is reasonably close, or could go either way, you obviously want to give it to us.. We know you can’t score the fight for us if he beats us to death.. We don’t want to cause a scandal or lose you your job.. But, you know.. we’re not afraid of a small amount of controversy.. People have different opinions on who won a fight anyway.. We think we can fight a competitive fight and hang in there, so we need a fair shake.”Posted May 13, 2014 10:40 pm
Tark, I didn’t write thatPosted May 13, 2014 8:18 pm
Herron, “Floyd’s last rematch was vs. Castillo and we know why it was necessary.”
It wasn’t necessary… It was boring. They brought in a hit team of judges who tried to rob Floyd in the rematch but Castillo couldn’t win a single round.. The judges scored rounds for Castillo in the rematch that Floyd won by a wide margin … The only reason Floyd won that rematch is it was so one-sided — but look at the scorecards… Then look at who the judges were.
You didn’t see Ken Morita in a major fight since Tyson-Douglas… Morita had Tyson beating Douglas and objectively Mike won only one (1) round, the 8th, in that fight.. It was a blowout.Posted May 13, 2014 7:04 pm
Joseph Herron, none of these are official yet but it seems like the next fights are Wlad vs Pulev (mandatory) and Stiverne vs Wilder (mandatory). Please ask Wilder if 1. they’re going to force the mandatory challenge ASAP without interim bouts and 2. if he wins will he face Wlad for all the marbles next? Wlad has been vocal about wanting unification ASAP.Posted May 13, 2014 5:18 pm
who caresPosted May 13, 2014 12:25 pm
Change to tonight’s program…Bermane isn’t going to be able to make it this evening…so Deontay Wilder will be taking his place at 9PM EST!!!
718-506-1506Posted May 13, 2014 12:06 pm
Squared Circle: “I’m an extremely logical and detail-oriented person, so that type of verbiage would still be too vague for me.”
I appreciate your careful scrutiny of the judging process and I could tell that you had been watching the sport for a while, my friend.
It’s impossible to give you an exact percentage of what emphasis clean effective punching receives when scoring a prizefight, because scoring a professional prizefight is subjective and isn’t an exact science…especially when you consider damage, power, and effectiveness, as well as the overall number of punches.
It’s really not that difficult when you think about it…I think a lot of judges, as well as fight fans, actually make the process a lot more difficult than it actually is.
Here’s a pretty good book by veteran referee Tom Kaczmarek called ,”You be the Judge: Judging Professional Boxing for the TV Boxing Fan”, which was published in 1996.
I think he even published the entire book in chapters on a boxing website, if I’m not mistaken…maybe Boxrec or something.
Anyway, I will try to get a respected judge on the show sometime in the near future to help everyone clear up many of the misconceptions concerning the scoring criteria and what gets the primary emphasis when judging a prizefight.Posted May 13, 2014 1:49 am
Eric_Suede: “Good show by the way, I’m not trolling saying the show sucks, I just disagree with the notion that the blow Stiverne landed was comparable to the light graze that Wilder landed on Scott. Fair enough , I wasn’t in the ring but I can observe video & have an opinion. With all due respect Joseph, for the sake of argument let’s just say the “fix” was in, Do you really expect Scott, his trainer Joe Goossen, Deontay Wilder, and Eric Gomez of Golden Boy Promotions to admit it? Really?”
Thanks for listening to the show, Eric…and of course, you are entitled to your opinion…everyone is. But that’s all it is…an opinion. Not the gospel truth.
This is Heavyweight boxing…judge slowly.
Deontay, Goossen, and Gomez all met with Malik after the fight to discuss what had happened, and they all stated the same thing…that Scott emotionally broke down in the dressing room immediately after the bout and was embarrassed, disappointed, and very apologetic.
I know there was no fix in this fight, but ask yourself…who benefited from this fight if the fix was indeed in?
Gomez also stated that they had been trying to schedule opponents over the past year with Deontay that could conceivably give the big 6’7″ heavyweight more experience, realizing that it would greatly benefit Wilder as he moves into title contention against the best fighters in the division.
Liakhovich and Scott were both expected to give Deontay a greater test and some much needed rounds, but didn’t turn out that way.
No one at Golden Boy Promotions or Showtime Sports viewed the performance as a clear positive for Wilder.
Also, Malik had a lot to lose with that dismal and unfortunate performance.
At the elite level and largest stages of the sport, it’s embarrassing for the networks and promoters if a fight ends in that manner. Especially for the money the promoters charge Showtime and HBO.
What do you think are the chances of Malik Scott getting another shot on Showtime or HBO anytime soon?
Slim and none. He blew it.
Malik really lost big in his “Golden” opportunity and may never get another chance at the bigtime.
So who benefited from the bizarre 1st round KO? Wilder? Golden Boy? Showtime? Scott?
The answer is “no one”!!Posted May 13, 2014 12:12 am
I didn’t miss the point at all, HW boxing is unpredictable. Good show by the way, I’m not trolling saying the show sucks, I just disagree with the notion that the blow Stiverne landed was comparable to the light graze that Wilder landed on Scott. Fair enough , I wasn’t in the ring but I can observe video & have an opinion. With all due respect Joseph, for the sake of argument let’s just say the “fix” was in, Do you really expect Scott, his trainer Joe Goossen, Deontay Wilder, and Eric Gomez of Golden Boy Promotions to admit it? Really? I don’t know I just don’t buy it. i’ve seen Scott take harder blows, Hell he took a harder blow to the back of the head against chisora. He got up (of course too late).
Herron says.., “Clean, effective, and consequential punching is supposed to carry the heavy emphasis when scoring a prizefight…everything else is considered to be secondary.”
That statement is exactly correct.
If both fighters land 7 punches in a round and the punches have about the same overall impact and effect—usually close to ZERO—then you give the round to the guy who was more aggressive and tried to make a fight happen.. If they both had about the same aggression, but one threw 35 punches and the other threw 26… you give it to the guy who made the other guy miss more, because he defended a little better… If they both threw 35 punches you give it to the guy who controlled the pace and ring space better… he demonstrated better ring generalship … If that’s also a tie it’s a 10-10 round.
One way to keep track of punches thrown and landed is to mark a pad with dashes when boxer A throws and slashes when boxer B throws. Use a really expensive pen. With a little practice you can keep your eyes glued to the action and make the marks expertly without looking down. Make them longer when a punch connects, and you can use other nuances you invent.. After you’ve done enough fights it’s easy to record the results in 30 seconds, even in close rounds where many punches are thrown.
This takes a lot of skill so it won’t work the first few times you try it, but it forces you to watch very closely anyway.Posted May 12, 2014 10:42 pm
Thanks for your commentary, Eric…but you completely missed the point for comparing the two separate bouts.
The point was that Heavyweight boxing is very unpredictable, and strange things seem to consistently happen when the big men are involved.
Although most detractors who witnessed the Wilder/Scott fight on television are truly convinced that “the fix was in”, it wasn’t.
After speaking with Scott, his trainer Joe Goossen, Deontay Wilder, and Eric Gomez of Golden Boy Promotions, it became obvious that Malik got caught with a punch to the temple that he didn’t see coming…just like Chris Arreola.
I’m glad that you’re enough of a boxing expert that you can tell how hard the punch was from your television at home, and feel justified in criticizing a 13 year professional that had spent years trying to earn a title elimination opportunity only to fall short in embarrassing fashion on one of the biggest platforms of the sport, Showtime Sports.
I wish I had that kind of knowledge and expertise.
Unfortunately, I have to rely on speaking with trainers, fighters, and other members of the boxing community who were actually at the event and were in the ring when the fight took place when making an educated assessment.
Remember the Klitschko/Solis bout several years ago?
At first glance, most believed that one round title fight to be “a fix” as well…until Solis required several surgeries to repair torn ligaments in his knee.
Welcome back to Heavyweight boxing, brother!! The home of the strange!! LOLPosted May 12, 2014 10:14 pm
To totally switch the subject for those of you who may have listened to this show, The fact that these guys are trying to show parallels between Stiverne’s power punch to the temple & Wilder’s love tap that scott used to take a dive is laughable. Stiverne threw his blow with bad intentions. Arreola tried to get up but was discombobulated. Scott didn’t even try to get up. Point is, As much as I love boxing and i’d love to believe there’s no corruption or dives. that just isn’t the case. Wilder vs. Scott was a joke of a fight and either scott was scared & didn’t want to fight or the fix was in. Whereas stiverne vs arreola was a good fight.Posted May 12, 2014 9:02 pm
Squared Circle: “I fully understand that you can’t admit this in public due to political and professional ramifications from your colleagues and others in the business, so I don’t expect to see a response from you. I don’t want you to commit “professional suicide” and jeopardize your career and future opportunities over this matter. Shoot…even I would say the exact same things if I were in your position. Just know that I’ve always had a great deal of respect for you on ESB and always will — even when you can’t say what you’re really thinking.”
Thanks for the consideration, Squared Circle, but what makes “The Pugilist KOrner” unique is that we have no allegiance to any faction within the boxing community, and don’t play favoritism when calling the action or analyzing a prizefight.
I am one of the few boxing scribes who actually know how to strategically breakdown a fight. I think my strategic articles on FightSaga are evidence of this.
How many boxing writers will launch an accurate analysis based article before a fight? Hardly any…Doug Fischer is the only one who comes to mind…most others merely report, write human interest pieces, or are way off in their attempt to analyze a match-up.
If I open my mouth about something on the show, it’s always how I truly feel.
If you notice, when I disagree with either Ronnie or Gogue, I just won’t say anything and move on to the next topic. I have too much respect for the two fight trainers on the show to argue with either one of them.
But to be honest with you, Squared Circle, most trainers, fighters, or people affiliated with a specific promotional group respect my opinions offered in my writing and on the show.
Most who know me realize that I am always constructive in my criticisms and can support my views and opinions.
But if you have any specific questions or requests that you don’t want to be aired on the board, please email me anytime at herron.joseph2112 at att dot netPosted May 12, 2014 7:37 pm
Floyd WON the Fight and it really wasn’t as close as I had it the 1st time. After I watched the replay I could clearly see that Floyd scored the majority of the clean power shots in most rounds. Maidana WON no more than 4 rounds. NICE effort though. There should be no rematch. Floyd was not troubled at all. He fought another POOR tactical Fight and still WON lopsidedly. IF he fought that way against Pacquiao he would LOSE but he’s not dumb enough to DO that. He laid on the ropes because he knew he could get away with it against Maidana. Maidana didn’t even land one hurtful shot to the FACE. Threw double the shots and still got out landed. He cannot Top his performance but Floyd CAN. No need to see that. Maidana had his best shot and fell short. GO rematch Broner.Posted May 12, 2014 7:21 pm
What’s improved in Maidana’s fight game is not his ability to fight on the inside, but the acknowledgement that he has deficiencies in close quarters.
If you notice, in every fight besides the Mayweather bout since training with Garcia, he’s done a much better job of working behind the jab and not smothering his punches by attacking from mid-range.
Look where the shots come from when he hurts Adrien Broner during the fight last December. He launches them from mid-range and doesn’t smother his offense.
It’s almost like the plan against Mayweather was to sacrifice his offense just to smother Mayweather and keep him immobile.
Almost worked…Garcia’s pretty good!! LOLPosted May 12, 2014 7:17 pm
suk my root AnonymousPosted May 12, 2014 3:41 pm
blah blah blahPosted May 12, 2014 1:54 pm
Squared-Circle Real Talk (a.k.a. LionKing)
Joseph Herron: I agree that MM has been a mid-range slugger for most of his career. However, I think his infighting skills have improved considerably over the last 4-5 fights under the tutelage of Garcia. I have a bad habit of thinking the term “proficient” means competent or good, whereas some definitions describe it as meaning expert or masterful. I do not think MM is a masterful infighter, but think he’s become a solid, competent infighter within the past couple years. You mentioned Rios as being a masterful infighter. Well, coincidentally they have the same trainer and I think MM has showed a lot of improvement in that area under Garcia.
IMO… too many judges place WAY too much emphasis on clean punching and do not give body shots nearly enough credit on the cards. As you know, the judges are expected to score bouts based on the following four components:
Clean punching: “Clean” punches are shots that land on the face/side of the head and the front/side of the torso. I agree that FMJ landed more clean punches throughout the fight, but MM landed many scoring shots as well.
Effective aggressiveness: A boxer demonstrates this trait when he consistently and successfully moves forward in a controlled manner. MM clearly dominated in this area.
Ring generalship: The judges favor the fighter who controls the pace and style of the bout. Again, MM forced the action and set the style and pace of the fight. Therefore he dominated in this area well.
Defense: Boxers that “skillfully” incorporate defensive maneuvers receive credit in this area. Clean defensive maneuvers include head movement, blocking, parrying, slipping and footwork. I observed FMJ doing an excessive amount of holding, clinching, illegally shoving MM’s face with his forearms/elbows, using headlocks and illegal arm-locks like overhooks, as defensive techniques. Many would not consider those tactics to be clean. Therefore I cannot give FMJ the advantage in this category because many of those tactics were not what’s considered “clean defense.” Sure, MM was also using dirty tactics at times (though mostly offensive). Ultimately, I have to say that neither fighter displayed dominance in this area.
While watching the fight four different times, I kept each of the four scoring criteria in mind as each is supposed to carry equal weight. It’s not like clean punching is supposed to be valued at 75% and the other scoring components are only supposed to be valued at 8.33%. Idealistically, they’re each supposed to carry equal weight in the minds of the judges when scoring each round. So overall, FMJ had the advantage in just one of the four components of official scoring guidelines. When I combine that assessment with the fact that the punch totals were very even (MM actually landed more power shots), I have to say that MM came away with the slight edge — 115-114. Even Paulie M. said, “the fight could have gone either way.” And you’ve said that you could see it as a Draw.
This is slow, plodding MM (not class-A or elite) we’re talking about who was expected to be totally outboxed by the great FMJ by a wide UD. How can FMJ possibly be the GOAT or “TBE” when he could’ve even beat the very limited MM? Combine that answer with the fact that FMJ really lost to Castillo. Take your pick, Joeseph: 44-2, 44-1-1 or 45-1. But that highly touted, overhyped precious “O” does NOT exist in reality or in the minds of millions of hardcore fight fans. I fully understand that you can’t admit this in public due to political and professional ramifications from your colleagues and others in the business, so I don’t expect to see a response from you. I don’t want you to commit “professional suicide” and jeopardize your career and future opportunities over this matter. Shoot…even I would say the exact same things if I were in your position. Just know that I’ve always had a great deal of respect for you on ESB and always will — even when you can’t say what you’re really thinking.Posted May 12, 2014 1:52 pm
Too many people on these forums simply hate Mayweather and see what they want and talk endlessly trash and try to twist the truth. Mayweather won the fight and if they were to fight a rematch, it would be easier for Mayweather.Posted May 12, 2014 1:45 pm
Do you think Amir fought clean or super, super dirty vs the idiot, Collazo?Posted May 12, 2014 12:29 pm
If you think that only Maidana fouled then you must have missed Mayweather’s forearms to the face and elbows.Posted May 12, 2014 12:22 pm
Well said, TCPosted May 12, 2014 12:21 pm
I originally did not score the Mayweather/Maidana fight, and came away feeling it could have gone either way. I rewatched it this weekend, and scored it 115/113 for Mayweather. And still came away thinking it could have gone either way. However, the cleaner more effective punches were landed by Mayweather. But if you’re into a swarming rough house style, Maidana would have won your heart over with his effort.Posted May 12, 2014 12:04 pm
@Danni I agree.Posted May 12, 2014 11:24 am
Garcia and Maidan I meant. The predictive text feature was onPosted May 12, 2014 11:24 am
FLoyd won the fight. Garcia Android Maidana are scum bags. Garcia is telling Madaina in the corner to keep fouling And fight dirty. The better man won the fightPosted May 12, 2014 11:21 am
hey HidalgO, what’s so crazy is that the judges had Mayweather winning by a greater margin in the first Castillo fight (a close fight) than the second, in which Mayweather clearly won….just sayingPosted May 12, 2014 10:29 am
hidalg0 I hope you didn’t take any offence at my post, I was just trying to say the fight could have gone any of three ways and so it wasn’t a robbery. Most people respect your judgement on the fight game cause you don’t have any bias. As for scoring fights. I’ve been scoring fights for decades starting with a blank piece of paper and a pen and learning to write as it were both shorthand and without looking at the page to record the significant blows or action of each round the. Awarding accordingly to A or B.
What we would all like to see is Mayweather rematch Maidana and hopefully get a clear winner. I have no preferences, just in case you were wondering. I am a fan of boxing. To be honest I would like to see all the Welterweights engage in an 8 man unification tournament and for this to be replicated throughout all the divisions.
Keep your comments coming and once again no offence is meant by my posts.Posted May 12, 2014 10:24 am
Jake Lead Rights
Bermane will never be a true champion….Don King wont let it happen….Bermane signed a contract with the DEVIL!Posted May 12, 2014 10:10 am
Swedish Boxing Fan is right. Lewis retired as Champ and The Man…Lewis went out in an unsatisfying way though. He did not want to rematch Vitali who then beat Corrie Sanders who had beaten Wladimir. Vitali bacame WBC Champ and The Man. No one beat him since. Right now, Wladimir is The Man. Bermane Stiverne is WBC Champ.
That’s how I see it.
Wlad is the MAN. The Only Champ.
Let’s just get back to the basics.Posted May 12, 2014 9:54 am
Swedish Boxing Fan is right. Lewis retired as Champ and The Man…Lewis went out in an unsatisfying way though. He did not want to rematch Vitali who then beat Corrie Sanders who had beaten Wladimir. Vitali bacame WBC Champ and The Man. No one beat him since. Right now, Wladimir is The Man. Bermane Stiverne is WBC Champ.Posted May 12, 2014 9:46 am
Maidana deserved a draw IMO….
As far as Ariza, Ariza isn’t a pro boxer but has been around the sport seeing it up close for along time. He is in the gyms, he is learning, and so on. He can be quite bias. But he is also a fanboy of fighters in both MMA and Boxing. So when he says that he saw the adjustments and admired how FLoyd fought and adjusted, I think that does say a lot. He saw it that night. I didn’t. I was to surprised at what was going on. In the review on Showtime (HD), I saw a slightly different fight. I saw the adjustments Floyd made clearly, I saw the punches I though were landing weren’t actually landing for “points” as of course they were still landing somewhere. And so on.
I’ll watch it again though with a pen and paper and see again in a bit to see if its the same.Posted May 12, 2014 9:36 am
hidalg0 you are entitled to your opinion, but did you not see the effects Floyd’s body punhing had on Maidana? It certainly slowed him down, mid to late rounds. When have you ever seen Floyd throw many punches in bunches? I’ll tell you when, in his Super Featherweight days, so your saying Miadana didn’t allow him to throw punches is a deliberate red herring. Even in fights he’s dominating he doesn’t thro more than three, take a beat hen pop one, then maybe two. Nope. Red herring.
Some people will argue Maidana won, others Mayweather and still others a draw, so it’s not a robbery like Pacquiao suffered vs Bradley.
That was history in the making, Danni, and Marcos made it. At least in my eyes he did.
BTW Danni, don’t forget that boxing is first and foremost a business. Robert Garcia isn’t going to bash Floyd or go on about how he thought Marcos should have got the win if he expects to get a rematch with Floyd. He’s smart enough to know “never bite the hand that feeds you.”
Actually, you should make a big deal about it because it is saying your guy won. That gets the fans to sway to your side and that means, $$$$$$$$$/numbers, which Floyd likes.
1.5 million + PPV.
Swedish Boxing Fan
I give Bermane Stiverne his deserved credit for the victory over Chris Arreola. I also give him credit for the fact that it is true that Stiverne wanted to fight Vitali Klitschko for that WBC title belt in first place to live up and prove his right as the 1# WBC mandatory title challanger by fighting the recognised champ.
And yes it is true that he fought an opponent WBC choosed he was going to fight against for the vacant WBC title AND that he had nothing to do with that choise of opponent so of course he cant be blaimed asd I’m sure he would liked to have fought an opponent worthy as himself.
When bringing up Lewis-Klitschko, yes that is also true that Vitali wanted to fight Lennox Lewis for the title a 2nd time due to his TKO 6 loss and for months and even years he called Lewis out.
Vitali however had proved he was the right man to take up the vacant title and also he fought an worthy opponent to officaly prove it against WBO world heavyweight champion Corrie “The Sniper” Sanders who in his turn came from winning his title in an big KO upset boxing match against the next heavyweight sensation Wladimir Klitschko and all is well so far.
Sanders was a major title champ BUT was forced to vacate the WBO world title if he desired to fight against Vitali Klitschko and for the now vacant WBC title and the rest is history.
The point is here that back then it was the best match-up to be made for the moment and no one complained for that fight match-up.
Chris Arreola however never won his right to fight for that vacant title and Don King is VERY known for not wanting his fighters to fight against a champion who dont have a contract on and that is the case AGAIN here and that will make Bermane Stiverne look like a paper champion.
I belive he is tallented enough to win good fights and all but he can’t have Don King to rule his show or else he will end up like a paper champion who only fights hand picked opponents away from being a risky opponent.Posted May 12, 2014 9:13 am
I was actually a bit disappointing that it wasn’t closer than I originally had it. 7-5, Floyd, or even 6-5, 1 even, Floyd. I thought that was odd thinking on my part. It was like after reviewing it, the rematch would be a let down I guess. Maidana gave it his all where Floyd showed signs that he would probably just revise his strategy and make it a clear UD next time out.Posted May 12, 2014 8:55 am
“That’s some extremely accurate scoring, Hidalgo!”
Squared Circle, I favored Floyd going into this fight so my bias was FOR Floyd, not against him. Yet, Maidana did what he had to do and in my eyes, Marcos clearly won the fight, even if only by a small margin.
Cool, but again, Pro Fighters and Trainers have come out in favor of Floyd winning that fight. Garcia didn’t even make a big deal of it.
It was close. To close for a Mayweather fight.Posted May 12, 2014 8:52 am
Tyson fury is a hype job that will soon be exposed he sells his mouth called out wilder and punked out no heart lacks skill he knows is time as a mere contender is ticking moment he steps up fights any name fighter not even a big name just a fighter with a recognizable name its a wrap for him even brit’s know this stop believing the bs hype fury trashPosted May 12, 2014 7:58 am
wilder-jennings then then need to thompson and then whoevers. Bermane gets a bye and fight Zelenoff.Posted May 12, 2014 7:49 am
Stiverne will need very careful match-making if he is to remain champ. Wilder, Fury, Pulev, Povetkin and maybe Chisora would all have a great shot at beating him. Stiverne looks very mediocre.Posted May 12, 2014 7:45 am
Gonzo shows all the signs of the ugly, green-eyed monster. Often, this is coupled with a failed career and is replaced by targeting one’s betters with scorn, disdain and gathering a crew of like-minded individuals of low self esteem who he can lord it over and live his fantasies vicariously, through their own stupidity and hero-worship. Gonzo’s first steps back to reality and humility will be to admit his own inadequacies and face up to reality and stop hiding in public bath houses and admit he is a loser.
GONZO, says he’s a boxer and cannot see what every single fighter and commentator has said that Floyd won the fight. Even Alex Ariza says Floyd won although Maidana pushed him close. This can be confirmed on FightHype. Gonzo your hatred is consuming you and making you look a proper girl. What is your professional record and what titles have you won? keyboard warrior titles don’t count. I would even wager money with you that if you sauntered down to Mayweather Senior’s gym, he would whup your fanny even more than he whupped Zelenoff’s demented butt. We all know you like a good a$$ whupping in the ring now don’t we Gonzo.Posted May 12, 2014 7:36 am
“Chino smothered his offense the entire night and didn’t really land many clean, effective punches. Unless you’re scoring more heavily for effective aggression and not clean effective punching, I just don’t see how you could reward maidana the fight.” Me either.Posted May 12, 2014 7:08 am
ihad arroelaPosted May 12, 2014 7:00 am
Mick the Marmalizer
Who really cares? Yes Stiverne has won the “vacant” WBC H/W title, but it doesn’t make him the heavyweight champion of the World! & till he beats the World’s #1 Wladimir Klitschko he never shall be! Wilder will maybe be next up, but it will only act as an eliminator for the true undisputed champion. Pulev it would appear is next up for the Dr or maybe the winner of Fury/Chisora, so the WBC could well be out of the H/W equation for sometime to come. “1 World 1 champ & no B/S is what is required in the noble science & no less”!!!!…………Posted May 12, 2014 6:52 am
Wilder should be the first defensePosted May 12, 2014 6:05 am
Gonzo The Dragonborn – Part Man, Part Vulture, Part Baboon, Part Machine
Edit. Punchers’s glovesPosted May 12, 2014 5:41 am
Squared Circle: “I have to disagree with you, brother, on Maidana not being a proficient inside fighter. I think he proved his infighting ability when he beat the h3ll outta Broner. Those shots were scoring and hurting AB. And I believe that it’s MM’s infighting ability that enabled him to shock the world vs. FMJ.”
Maidana is a mid range banger who applies effective aggression and cuts off the ring well, but he’s not a proficient inside fighter. Whenever he gets in close, he smothers his own offense.
Fighters like Miguel Cotto and Jose Luis Castillo are proficient inside fighters, but not Marcos Maidana. That’s why I and so many others are having a very hard time justifying those close rounds that you rewarded to Maidana.
Maidana wasn’t landing many clean effective shots against Mayweather. He was forcing the action and putting effective pressure on Mayweather, but wasn’t landing cleanly.
Watch it again and look at Maidana’s deficiencies on the inside. Compare his technique and ability to land at close quarters to a fighter like Brandon Rios…it’s like night and day.Posted May 12, 2014 2:38 am
He should fight Tyson Fury..why not? can he handle a tall fighter?Posted May 12, 2014 2:12 am
Squared-Circle Real Talk (a.k.a. LionKing)
“Squared circle, you talk too much.”
Naw… I’m just a deep, critical thinker who’s overflowing with information. I’m guilty of having a lot of interesting — sometimes important and/or controversial — things to say and I happen to type fast and talk even faster.Posted May 12, 2014 2:00 am
Squared-Circle Real Talk (a.k.a. LionKing)
Brother Joe: Thanks mano! And I have a ton of respect for you, both professionally and as a poster on this board, and appreciate that you take the time to talk boxin’ with “regular Joes” on ESB. I’m not always able to catch your shows, but enjoy them when I can.
Maidana didn’t win 7 rounds, but I honestly believe FMJ didn’t either. I think Maidana won 6, FMJ won 5, and 1 was even. But I can totally see a Draw (6 to 6) and can accept 115-114 for FMJ. I think 115-113 for FMJ is a bit of a stretch in his favor, but that’s certainly not an incompetent score. I have to agree with Paulie M. when he said, “the two judge who scored it 117-111 and 116-112 weren’t even watching the fight.”
I have to disagree with you, brother, on Maidana not being a proficient inside fighter. I think he proved his infighting ability when he beat the h3ll outta Broner. Those shots were scoring and hurting AB. And I believe that it’s MM’s infighting ability that enabled him to shock the world vs. FMJ.
I was scoring on clean effective punching, ring generalship and effective aggression. And I think that night MM was the ring general (boss), brought a lot more aggression and forced the action. I think he landed many effective shots as well.
But like you said, scoring a prizefight is a subjective art. And perhaps that’s what leads to an unacceptable number of bad decisions and robberies. Wouldn’t you like to see the official scoring become a far less subjective art, brother? What are your thoughts on boxing starting to utilize more slow-mo instant replay and overturning bad calls — like in the NFL?Posted May 12, 2014 1:54 am
All roads lead to Floyd as it has become abhorrently inherent for his haters to digress and discuss Floyd even when the subject matter has little to do with him. You haters are obsessed and you know who you are, so go get a life or go read some “make-you-feel “good psychedelic article about Grabimir, that might do the trick.Posted May 12, 2014 1:21 am
Squared circle, you talk too much.Posted May 12, 2014 1:20 am
Squared-Circle Real Talk (a.k.a. LionKing)
Cheezb: Of course Compubox is not perfect because the punches landed are being counted by humans. But we’re talking about 173 to 66 power punches landed. 173 to 66! Do the math. I’m sorry but that’s a HUGE difference and not even Compubox’s margin of error can account for that big of a discrepancy. Floyd fans will continue to claim those numbers are ridiculous off the mark, but when Compubox stats favor their hero, they cite those figures as pure factual evidence. Just know that millions of fans know that FMJ lost to Castillo, and there’s nothing you can say to change our minds.
Compubox says Maidana landed more power punches than Floyd (185 to 178) and that FMJ only landed 9 more total punches over 12 rounds. What’s worth more? Nine feather-fisted, grazing jabs or 7 power shots? That’s a hypothetical question.Posted May 12, 2014 1:12 am
Thanks, Murderman…good to hear from you, brotherPosted May 12, 2014 1:02 am
I have a lot respect for your opinions on this comment board, Squared Circle…always have and always will.
But the Maidana fight isn’t in the same category as Paulie or Mauricio’s respective performances…for the simple reason that Maidana isn’t a proficient inside fighter and wasn’t scoring. Shostats weren’t accurate last Saturday night in my opinion.
I agree with you that 9 rounds to 3 in favor of Floyd was a stretch, but so is 7 rounds to 5 for Maidana.
If you are scoring or clean effective punching, i don’t see how you could make a case for Marcos winning any round with the exception of the 11th in the back half of the fight.
I scored the fight 7-5 for Floyd, but could see a draw or 8-4 for Floyd. But 7 rounds for Maidana?
Can’t see it, brother…but then again, scoring a prizefight is a subjective art.
But unless you were looking for reasons to score the fight for Maidana, I really can’t see how one could rationalize scoring seven rounds for Chino.
Just my honest opinionPosted May 12, 2014 1:00 am
Squared-Circle Real Talk (a.k.a. LionKing)
Correction: “…just as feather-fisted jabs that barely graze the FACE are almost always counted.”
There are a couple of fighters that come to mind who get credit for nearly all their feather-fisted jabs that barley graze their opponents faces. H3ll… I’ve seen Alexander get credit for those type of jabs that didn’t even land — just because they’re super fast, come close to making contact, and he’s making grunting noises. Unfortunately, some judges and punch counters just can’t see that fast.Posted May 12, 2014 12:55 am
@Squared-Circle Real Talk (a.k.a. LionKing) – “CompuBox is not perfect, but it’s extremely important because we see WAY too many robberies and bad decisions in pro boxing.”
CompuBox counts loads of punches that land on gloves, arms and shoulders as “landed”. There is no way Mayweather took 173 power shots against Castillo… on the shoulders and gloves, very likely, but no way did that many shots land on his face or “body” (i.e. in places where they’re actually effective).
I’m not saying it wasn’t a close fight because it was very, very close… the outcome was definitely arguable. But it wasn’t a robbery.Posted May 12, 2014 12:51 am
Squared-Circle Real Talk (a.k.a. LionKing)
Because all those hard, thudding body shots and short chopping right hands bouncing off the top and side of FMJ’s head were scoring BIG TIME. I think 115-114, 114-114 and are good scores, but the two judges who scored it 117-111 and 116-112 were off the mark. I call it “the Ali-Norton effect.”
Problem is there are too many judges who don’t give body shots enough credit and don’t how to effectively score close-quarters infighting and all the shots that are exchanged when one guy is doing a lot of clinching and holding (mostly FMJ).
We saw a similar problem with Broner vs. Paulie M. Paulie was not given nearly enough credit for a large number of body shots that he landed. One can argue that many of them weren’t hard, thudding body shots, but they still should’ve been counted — just as feather-fisted jabs that barely graze the face or body are almost always counted.
We saw a very similar problem with the scoring of Garcia vs. Herrera. Herrera did not receive proper credit for many of the body shots he landed. Since when have body shots been considered worth less and/or not categorized as “clean effective punches” compared to head shots?Posted May 12, 2014 12:44 am
@ joeseph herron – nice article brother. Keep up the great work! Peace and blessings!Posted May 12, 2014 12:27 am
Chino smothered his offense the entire night and didn’t really land many clean, effective punches. Unless you’re scoring more heavily for effective aggression and not clean effective punching, I just don’t see how you could reward maidana the fight.Posted May 12, 2014 12:15 am
Floyd being 43-3 or 42-2? Thats a bit of a stretch. Im a bottom line guy. Bottom line is whether we like it or not floyd is 46-0. Unless he fights triple g at 154 he will retire undefeated! I dont think pac can fight the rugged intense style it would take to beat floyd. Prob if it was 2009 pac. But not now. And unless pac is leaving arum we can forget a floyd vs pac fight at least for now!Posted May 12, 2014 12:15 am
I had it floyd 115-113. Chino fought his ass off and deserves a rematch and another big payday. I think floyd wasnt fully focus on this fight. He prob will dominate chino in a rematch just like he did castillo. But chino fought the kind of fight you need to beat floyd. Non stop pressure. Hold. Smother. Foul him if u can get away with it! But few fighters can fight w that strategy and intensity for 12rds.Posted May 12, 2014 12:11 am
Squared-Circle Real Talk (a.k.a. LionKing)
Last time I checked, MILLIONS of fight fans KNOW that Castillo beat FMJ in their first fight. Castillo threw 506 punches and landed 203 (40%); FMJ threw 448 and landed 157 (35%). But more importantly, Castillo threw 377 power punches and landed 173 (46%). FMJ only threw 151 power punches and only landed 66 (44%) of them. That’s 173 to 66 power punches!!!
I repeat: FMJ threw 151 power punches and only landed 66 (44%) of them. That’s 173 to 66 power punches! 173 to 66. Not even close. Castillo landed almost THREE TIMES as many power punches!
CompuBox is not perfect, but it’s extremely important because we see WAY too many robberies and bad decisions in pro boxing. It’s the only empirical, fact-based system that analysts, writers and fans have to fall back on when decisions go to the wrong fighter. When FMJ was judged to be the winner, the large crowd in Vegas erupted with angry disgust and booed loudly for well over 10 minutes.
FACT: FMJ unofficially lost his first fight with Castillo. The statistical evidence is just too overwhelming to dispute. So FMJ is NOT really undefeated. His REAL record is 44-2 and he’ll have at least 1 loss on his official record if he fights the very best in the world (e.g., PacMan; Lara and 3G at 154lbs, etc.). FMJ is an ATG, HOFer and extremely talented boxer.
Squared-Circle Real Talk (a.k.a. LionKing)
Maidana beat Mayweather 115-114!”
Posted May 11, 2014 10:07 pm
That’s some extremely accurate scoring, Hidalgo! That’s the exact score I came away with after watching the fight a few times. And no, it was NOT FMJ’s first loss! Hardcore fans and boxing insiders know that he lost his first fight with Castillo. Floyd’s REAL record is 44-2.
Both of those fights were in Floyd’s own backyard Vegas. They were home-cooked decisions — just like Alexander getting crooked wins over Matthysse and Kotelnik in St. Louis. “TBE” my @$$… lol.Posted May 11, 2014 11:53 pm
“Mayweather 43-3.”…Floyd’s tissue, you are a complete moron.Posted May 11, 2014 11:25 pm
“Maidana beat Mayweather 115-114!”…Hidas$hole spoke.Posted May 11, 2014 11:22 pm
Castillo beat Mayweather 115:111 in the first fight. He threw by far more chances, landed by far more and had a higher connect rate. Mayweather 43-3.Posted May 11, 2014 10:33 pm
Not sure how Stiverne will deal with a taller fighter. Especially a faster taller fighter who can punch. I cant see him ever getting near wlad. How would he manage against wilder fury or even a 6’4 outfighter scott. A fight with lucas browne would also be interesting.Posted May 11, 2014 10:25 pm
everyone wants to see wilder vs stiverne. Come on Don King make it happenPosted May 11, 2014 10:20 pm
Wilder vs. Stiverne should be next. winner, faces Wlad.Posted May 11, 2014 10:19 pm
Maidana beat Mayweather 115-114!
Subjective when it goes to the score-cards but Pro Fighters and Trainers that I’ve heard so far gave it to Mayweather. Even Ariza and Garcia don’t put forth an a solid argument that Maidana won. Garcia will still back his man though for giving Floyd hell.
First time I saw it, and maybe it was the emotions, but I thought it was very close. Like 7-5 Floyd at the most, maybe even 6-5, 1 even. But after rematching it in HD on Showtime, I gave it to Floyd minimum 7-5. HD I noticed Maidana really wasn’t landing much after the a certain point while Floyd was landing clean shots.Posted May 11, 2014 10:17 pm
Won’t don king milk Stiverne slowly, match him against safer opposition, so that King can remain reelevant?Posted May 11, 2014 9:53 pm
lol…I love Bryant, Luke!!Posted May 11, 2014 9:49 pm
My final thoughts……BYE BYE JENNINGS!!!!!Posted May 11, 2014 9:16 pm
Funny, Jack would’ve got less criticism if he stopped it immediately after the 2nd knockdown.Posted May 11, 2014 9:09 pm
And it was FREEEEEEEE!!Posted May 11, 2014 9:02 pm
Octavius Jomar Chatman
Congrats to Stiverne…Posted May 11, 2014 8:50 pm
It’s hard to say what his next fight will be…the K brothers don’t like to work with Don King, but there’ definitely more money in a unification bout with Wlad.
So who know at this point…we will be talking to Bermane on Tuesday night’s edition of The Pugilist KOrner!!Posted May 11, 2014 8:45 pm
Brazilian Boxing Fan
I hope his first defence is against Deontay Wilder.Posted May 11, 2014 8:31 pm