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Anonymous

even pacquiao ko by marquez… his still my idol… his the fighter that never run…!! unlike other fighter..! he comes the ring for the people…. he want all people enjoyed!!! pacquiao always fight toe to toe… his still the best boxer…!

Posted December 22, 2012 9:13 am 


Anonymous

that is a lucky day for marquez……

Posted December 22, 2012 9:09 am 


john

wow! why say such mean things about Manny? He is a true warrior, and unlike Mayweather, is a class act, who has HUMILITY, and the will to help the underpriviliged in his country. I bet you don’t do that Mr. F*****g Facts!

Posted December 19, 2012 12:23 am 


zahlwahid

Ok Manny lost to Marquez this time but lets see who will fall in the fifth fight

Posted December 18, 2012 12:15 pm 


Anonymous

Shhhhhh Pacquiao is still sleeping

Posted December 17, 2012 12:38 pm 


OCTAVIUS72

@ZKO; I stated the same exact thing a few days ago; and I totally agree with you. I don’t understand the DOUBLE STANDARDS. This just goes to show me that people are extremely NIAVE. They buy into that GOOD GUY bullcrap but when you got an outspoken fighter like Mayweather saying the same exact thing; then it’s viewed as him being a coward or a braggard. Bottom line is that we witness a great fight between two awesome combatants and Marquez proved to be the better of the two. Give the man his props. He got hit with some bombs in that fight. His nose was broke; and he was rocked in that 5th round; but he turned it around just like he did in their FIRST FIGHT; but this time he didn’t allow it to go to the judges; he took matters in his own hand with that HUGE RIGHT HAND that Pacman walked into and never saw coming!!!!!!!

Posted December 17, 2012 3:54 am 


CK

Marquez the better fighter hands down. Accept it Pac fans!!

Posted December 16, 2012 10:49 pm 


ZKO

This is amazing to me. So when Pac was moving up numerous weight classes and dominating elite level guys within a 2-3 year time period, Mayweather calling for Olympic style drug testing was viewed as too much. Everyone said Pac never failed a test. Now that Pac is KTFO, now we hear that the sport needs cleaning up and we need Olympic style tesing… even though Marquez passed the test. It’s just a WTF moment.

Posted December 16, 2012 7:46 pm 


Nathan

Armstrong failed three tests, 2 in 1999 and 1 in 2000 but had the findings quashed as their were supposedly part of his cancer treatment.

Posted December 16, 2012 7:28 pm 


Facts

Anonymous, Marions jones maybe but Armstrong has taken more tests than any athlete in the sport & is yet to fail test?What proof all I see envy by other hypocrite cheaters.You think they would’ve found something valid & legit by now,nope just 2faces pointing the finger.

Posted December 16, 2012 5:17 pm 


zdrx

marquez hiring of heredia, a known PEDs scientist/ dealer…is like declaring:

“FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES…I’M HERE TO CHEAT!”

Posted December 16, 2012 2:44 pm 


DBLOCK

The tests came back clean.The fight was electric and an unfolding drama before our eyes.Lets just enjoy what was and look foward to their 5th fight as well as the other exciting fights that will happen in 13′

Posted December 16, 2012 1:17 pm 


Sane Scientist

Your right anonymous, even floyd is probably using peds. Maybe we should just shut down all sports until testing is perfected.

Posted December 16, 2012 12:46 pm 


Jvincy

Great news! Congrats to Marquez because he truly earned this victory.

Posted December 16, 2012 10:38 am 


the anti-pac

nite nite pacnuts.

Posted December 16, 2012 10:03 am 


Red Ryan

Marquez is the legendary hardcore warrior with dinimite in his hands, 40 Kos !!

Posted December 16, 2012 8:40 am 


Anonymous

Just because they test clean doesn’t mean they are clean. Everyone with a quarter of a functioning brain knows that anti-doping in boxing is a joke. And it’s bad in all sports. Look at Marion Jones and Lance Armstrong – both proven cheats, neither ever failed a drugs test. Testing clean means next to nothing.

Posted December 16, 2012 8:36 am 


Ray Ray

Supreme court- ha ha ha I was waiting 4 some1 else 2 call out Chicago guy. He wasn’t even seen pre pacman getting Ko’d. Pactards have zero class… Unlike the man him self, Manny… They r the most 1 eyed and no clues boxing fans ever. Haven’t studied the game at all just follow manny……rookies

Posted December 16, 2012 8:23 am 


Anonymous

Can we all now agree Mayweather was right all along pacquiao was juiced and now he isn’t …..well we can see for our selfs.

Posted December 16, 2012 8:21 am 


Facts

Pactards are priceless damn i can’t wait to see pac get KO’d again these clowns don’t make me feel sorry lol.Night Night pacroid.

Posted December 16, 2012 6:01 am 


Rich

I’M POSTING TO QUICKLY…..GET YOURSELF SORTED OUT..ONE POST A DAY AND YOU CALL THAT QUICK….READ MORE SLOWLY DOPE

Posted December 16, 2012 2:55 am 


fred

Angel Heredia = PED = undetectable

Posted December 16, 2012 12:56 am 


CK

Pac lost,he got KOed,test came back clean…now get over it!!

Posted December 15, 2012 11:31 pm 


CK

Pac fans are still going to question those results because they can’t accept defeat.Marquez tested clean and his victory sealed. Marquez has always been the better of the two hands done!!

Posted December 15, 2012 11:23 pm 


forreal

…Pactards will never accept defeat…NEVER!!

Posted December 15, 2012 10:17 pm 


The new boxtradamus

Can we all agree that BOXTRADAMUS is the greatest boxing prophet there ever was and move on with our lives.
For goodness sakes, this guy repeats the same thing over and over again.

Posted December 15, 2012 10:10 pm 


Moohla

hahahahahahahaha………

Posted December 15, 2012 10:00 pm 


Moohla

Only haters wont admit Pacquiao’s greatness. Losers!… Ha ha ha.hahahaha – Pactard

Posted December 15, 2012 9:58 pm 


Hidalgo

“Marquez knocked out the BEST version of Pacquiao that has ever been SEEN” Hardly. Pacquiao was at his best around three years ago.

Posted December 15, 2012 9:55 pm 


Hidalgo

Excuse me, I didn’t mean to say “He uses racial slurs” I meant to say he NEVER uses racial slurs. Sorry Boxy.

Posted December 15, 2012 9:53 pm 


Lightweight Mike

Mexicutioner? Pac never called himself that. Roger Mayweather referred to himself as “The Mexican Assasin” at least until he was destroyed by Julio Cesar Chavez. That was more ironic.

Posted December 15, 2012 9:12 pm 


BMX

ET phone home.

Posted December 15, 2012 8:51 pm 


Supreme Court

Hahahahaah!
Life is so ironic!!!!!!!
And merciless…
THE MEXICUTIONER EXECUTED BY A MEXICAN!!!!!!!!!!
Even Spielberg would not have writtent such a script!!!!

Where is Chicago Guy?
Didn’t I warn you son?

Posted December 15, 2012 8:46 pm 


Anonymous

It’s the same with Track and field, you can run 9.9 clean, but if you want to run 9.7 to 9.5 you take something.

Posted December 15, 2012 8:40 pm 


Anonymous

They can all beat the tests, some fighters and some gyms just don’t do it, it’s not their game, some will.Mayweather accused Pacquiao of taking peds, avoid the fight, Pacquiao team took offence to that, you can pass the tests.Mayweather team made it all public, rather than fight Pacquiao, Pacquiao told them to go fk off, the Olympic test is easy to pass, it’s what you know, how to pass it.

Posted December 15, 2012 8:36 pm 


The Mad Scientist

Correction= weather the Pacquiao storm.

Posted December 15, 2012 8:20 pm 


The Mad Scientist

Like someone said Marquez’s win over Pacquiao will stand the test of time and Im betting they’ll be scraping Manny Pacquiao off the mat again if they throw him in the ring against Brandon Rios next..simple strategy for Bambam the pacquiao storm (wich Rios will) or safety first approach by using what’s still there on Manny’s speed and get to that fragile, shaky, glass chandelier and shatter it once and for all..very doable now for Brandon Rios thanks to the mexican legeng..bye, bye pactards it was nice knowing ya and fun while it lasted..Lol!

Posted December 15, 2012 8:18 pm 


Anonymous

pacman got knocked out cold by the better boxer who in 95% of fans eyes have been robbed at least 2 fights prior so just let it go pacman fans let it go,i had to say it twice ,you know like the movies haha!!

Posted December 15, 2012 8:17 pm 


The Mad Scientist

Manny Pacquiao has never failed a drug test himself and his been suspect since the Cotto victory..no matter how you slice it Juan Manuel Marquez is no more clean or dirty than Manny Pacquiao..BOOM! goes the dynamite right hand heard and around the world..viva Marquez para siempre!

Posted December 15, 2012 8:06 pm 


BoricuaOnTheMoon

ESB, please screen your writers better. This so called writer is tarnishing the image of the site. You can’t have this guy in the same forum as Paul Staruss. Come on!

Posted December 15, 2012 7:59 pm 


SREDMOND

You guys crack me up, Pac Man is such an easy puzzle that Morales had to get stopped twice, Barrera, Oscar, Cotto, Hatton, Larios, JMM
Needed 4 tries, had to sustain 5 kd’s and 2
broken noses to get a clear win… Margarito had his face literally cracked, Mosley hit the canvas… Yeah PAC Man was such a bad fighter that even the BEST fighter in the sport tried to explain his performances by calling him a cheater… He was named fighter of the Decade… It’s been pretty terrible being Manny Pacquiao… He got destroyed last week but his run was epic!

Posted December 15, 2012 7:44 pm 


The Truth

Pac is a defensless crowder – swarmer who’s success was based on his speed of foot and hand , his ko left hand and his toughness. These kind of fighters NEVER age well. Which team Mayweather always knew. Hence ducking him until he has slowed down. Think of the great attacking swarmer type fighters throughout history. None aged well. Tyson , Frazier , Marciano , Olivares , Fighting Harada , Aaron Pryor , Henry Armstrong , Carmen Basilio , Jeff Fenech , Benny Briscoe were all at their best in their 20s .

Skilled technicians and strong plodding types with power age better than swarmers.

Posted December 15, 2012 6:59 pm 


Anonymous

Nor did Ozzy Osbourne fail a drugs test.

Posted December 15, 2012 6:50 pm 


The Truth

Mark McGuire , Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds never failed a drug test ……..

Posted December 15, 2012 6:46 pm 


The Truth

Marion Jones never failed a drugs test

Posted December 15, 2012 6:45 pm 


Anonymous

“Floydette losers…..I know it’s difficult for you, but try making something of your own
pitiful lives and that doesn’t mean getting an increase in your welfare payments.” — “Pactard” losers…..I know it’s difficult for you, but try making something of your own
pitiful lives and that doesn’t mean getting an increase in privates on the Philippine sex cam web site you work on.

Posted December 15, 2012 6:41 pm 


Anonymous

“A lot of “Pactards” are just plain getting sick of you.” — And a lot of boxing fans are sick of Pactards.

Posted December 15, 2012 6:38 pm 


Popeye

Spinach, nothing changes.

Posted December 15, 2012 5:58 pm 


Boxing

Floyd Mayweather never fights anyway, he is just Money Mayweather, he will not be missed when he retires, let the Boxers get on with it.

Posted December 15, 2012 5:54 pm 


Nehru

Still no proof that Pac has ever used any peds and the Floyd team as we know have apologized for making the implication. Somehow I don’t see Paquiao as a loser. The guy is a multimillionaire, congressman, national hero, and world famous, a real super success story for a guy who began with almost nothing in life. He’s relatively a humble nice guy as opposed to the woman beating loud mouthed hero of many of you floydettes. But I wouldn’t say that Floys was the loser here nor Pacman. No, the biggest losers are the Mayworshippers who are obsessive compulsives here on this site harping about Packy’s loss and who continue to make these meaningless and unproven claims about ped use.
But it’s obviously nothing new because you’ve all have most likely been chronic losers all your miserable lives. Losers who feel like winners who can’t and never will make it but have a hero who has and when who you perceive to be his archrival lose a bout. Floydette losers…..I know it’s difficult for you, but try making something of your own
pitiful lives and that doesn’t mean getting an increase in your welfare payments. A lot of “Pactards” as you call them and those who are neutral about either Pacman or Floyd on this site are just plain getting sick of you.

Posted December 15, 2012 5:44 pm 


ZKO

Now that Marquez tested clean, we can say that he is as clean as Pac. Regarding the one punch KO: Pac did not see it, Pac was moving in, and Marquez threw a short punch with all of his body weight in it… that’s about all of the ingredients you need for a KO like that and any boxer will tell you that. Also keep in mind his nickname is Dinamita; he didn’t get this nickname for nothing.

Posted December 15, 2012 5:43 pm 


Anonymous

Pacquiao v Marquez, Marquez won fair and square, some of the top athletes are probably taking peds, but not all of them.

Posted December 15, 2012 5:38 pm 


focker

Every time Pacquiao win, he said he is just lucky, i could say that Marquez punch was lucky because it happened in last second of the fight. Pacquiao already won round 6, he should stop attacking Marquez in dying second of the round. Pacquiao made a big mistake that will haunt him for the rest of his life.

Posted December 15, 2012 5:27 pm 


OLST

Ped use, you can be 4x the normal testosterone and you pass an Olympic test, blood tests, it is just a case of making sure that you are under that if you are using HGH, that’s what I have read anyway.

Posted December 15, 2012 5:04 pm 


forreal

Now that Marquez tested clean,it won’t be long before the Pactards will claim Marquez had plaster on his gloves…watch!

Posted December 15, 2012 4:40 pm 


Robert A.

“It was an instance wherein the world’s heart was one good heart for one man at one particular moment” BWA-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH!!!

Posted December 15, 2012 4:33 pm 


forreal

…ironically,the first thing PEDman did after the plane landed and brought him home was to “kiss the ground”!!

Posted December 15, 2012 4:28 pm 


The Mad Scientist

Hecdog so is there a PED question lingering over team Marquez because they worked with Memo shouldn’t there be one for Pacquiao since they work with Alex Ariza who claims Angel is legit and knows the science of strength and conditioning..

Posted December 15, 2012 4:12 pm 


Boxtradamus

Tachyon-Wake UP and realize that I have Name Groupies. Also realize that I NEVER use racial slurs as that has nothing to DO with Boxing. Get you some differentiation SKILLS.

Posted December 15, 2012 4:03 pm 


forreal

Let’s make it like the world series…whoever wins 4 out 7 is the real champ!!

Posted December 15, 2012 4:00 pm 


Boxtradamus

Marquez knocked out the BEST version of Pacquiao that has ever been SEEN. WOW!! MY GREATNESS in predicting Fights is the definition of AWESOME. As I SAID before the Fight you do not pressure Marquez or you get knocked out. Just ask Juan Diaz and Katsidis. In Pacquiao-Marquez 5 Pacquiao had better take MY advice and Box with MUCH caution like Floyd DID. IF he doesn’t and decides to pressure the more Powerful version of Marquez again he’ll get stopped AGAIN. And I’ll be here screaming that…..I am the GREATEST Fight Prophet ever born!!!

Posted December 15, 2012 3:53 pm 


forreal

Some Filipinos that i know are in complete and total denial,coming up with excuses like “lucky punch”,”stepping on his foot”(they don’t know the different stance for lefties and right handers),and this or that;but most are as stoned faced ans quiet as the Statue of Liberty!!

Posted December 15, 2012 3:22 pm 


PEEJ

Glad the test came back clean. Congrats on your tremendous win Marquez

Posted December 15, 2012 2:32 pm 


Ed

At 40 it makes it harder to push to the limits then if younger. And the limits are somewhat deminished.

Posted December 15, 2012 2:26 pm 


Ed

Of course you must remember that Martinez got up and wasn’t KO’d by Chavez jr, almost as if he was meant to win that fight, he couldn’t be beaten even by a KO pro. It reminds you how important KO punches are, they can be the means to victory and they are to be overcome to deserve victory. Fact is Pac ended up flat on his face, defeated. Marquez the deserved winner.

Posted December 15, 2012 2:23 pm 


Rich

Supreme tennis court……You are a dope…..fact…..no nothing whatsoever about boxing…fact….and has still to find the fellow belt-holder Pacq fought…fact…The bet still stands dingbat,….fact

Posted December 15, 2012 2:16 pm 


Ed

The author of this article makes the mistake of forgetting that KO punches are a massive part of boxing, Mike Tyson made a career out of it and become more popular than Lennox Lewis, who was the more accomplished boxer and hence better boxer, not a better boxer because he KO more fighters however. My point is there are no lucky punches, and therefore no lucky KO punches. Its called boxing, if pac was to dance the whole fight and not put himself into testing moments he would have lost in the eyes of the majority of the public like the last outing. Pac did not knock Marquez out, Marquez knocked him out. It is sickening that on a boxing forum somebody suggests this, I mean I compare this to a lesser Football team facing a much superior Football team, the crapper side knows that even if they play out of their skins and create more chances than the better side if they do not take their chances and then lose to one goal scored by the better side having one chance then they can not say they were lucky because the better side are better because they are more clinical.

Posted December 15, 2012 2:16 pm 


Neil(pomy)

People simply dont know what they are talking about when they say “you cant improve your body at 40″ …… get to the gym and find out yourself. Age is just a number.

Posted December 15, 2012 2:15 pm 


Neil(pomy)

the funny thing is that there is no controversy and as for “the plot thickens” lol (as the author put it) well lets just say there isnt a plot. The only people that are trying their best to create controversy out of thin air are just a handful of Pacquaio fans that cant accept that he got knocked out. Better fighters than Pacquaio have ended up flat on their faces …. so why cant they accept reality? Im also not sure why the author is picking on Ricky Hatton. So Hatton went a bit off the rails!!! So what? Many people do. this article seems too much of a fanboy article and not an attempt at any sort of real journalism. Most articles on ESB are written by amature-journalist; some are good, some mediocre and some are just very one-sided and written from the perspective of being a fan …. hence; these are the worst.

Posted December 15, 2012 2:08 pm 


Tomato Can

Its good that both fighters tested clean, but was it ever in doubt? Smart teams have known how to beat current testing for years now. In any case, these Pacquiao fanatics are getting out of hand. Marquez was always a better fighter than Pacquiao, not faster, or more explosive, but he was always technically better. You don’t do the same thing over and over again, against a more technically skilled fighter. That fact was proven last weekend, when Manny got KTFO and did a face plant. Its time to give Marquez the deserved respect, and get off the Pacquiao apology tour.

Posted December 15, 2012 1:45 pm 


Kid Blast

Supreme Court, you have been found in comtempt for “Pac Hate.” It’s a hate crime, you know. Your punishment will be to listen to 5 hours of the Pac Man singing.

Posted December 15, 2012 1:37 pm 


ozzy

Everyone knows that urine tests are a waste of time – that’s why they’re used in boxing.

Posted December 15, 2012 1:35 pm 


K.C.

Marquez test positive for drinking his own urine! Nasty!

Posted December 15, 2012 1:29 pm 


Coopal

Marquez is officially clean. Unofficially? I’m sure we can found alot of 40 yr old body like that……

Posted December 15, 2012 1:14 pm 


Anonymous

Mayweather has barely fought since 2005, Judah, Baldomir, De La Hoya, Hatton, Marquez, Mosley, Ortiz, Cotto. Paquiao had beat most of them already, Judah coming of a loss against Baldomir, Ortiz also had lost and quit before, his record is not particularly great.

Posted December 15, 2012 1:02 pm 


SREDMOND

Popkins for the record Tyson and Lewis are months apart in age whereas PAC is 5 or 6 years YOUNGER than Marquez, your comparison makes no sense… PAC Man had not had a “legit” loss since Morales and he eked out 2 debatable wins against Marquez before JMM executed him on Saturday… Again no excuses accept Mannys crushing defeat, Marquez got him medically suspended… Give it up, you wanna pretend the old man was younger?? Get real!!

Posted December 15, 2012 1:01 pm 


SREDMOND

Popkins, you say Manny was “depleted” for this fight but you think he will win a rematch? How does that work?? Fountain of youth?? Reality is that it was a battle where PAC looked good till Marquez set him up and turned out the younger mans lights.. All credit to Marquez, Pacs not washed up especially against a guys who’s about to be 40 and discussing retirement just like he should be…

Posted December 15, 2012 12:56 pm 


SREDMOND

Popkins, again you’re full of it, if Marquez defense is so tight then why was he KDed by Katsidis, PacMan, Mayweather? Why the wars with PAC, Diaz,Katsidis, Casamayor?? The broken noses and innumerable cuts?? Marquez is not even viable at 147 unless he was in with PAC who proved he could compete at the weight… FACT is that an Old Marquez knocked out a younger Pacquiao and it’s NOT a good look on Manny.. That win gets JMM 100% credit, you cannot sell Marquez as the fresher fighter, he’s not Mayweather who
Has barely been touched… Look at him post fight …

Posted December 15, 2012 12:48 pm 


tachyon

“Roach said one of his former fighters, Justin Fortune, was known to have used PEDs and James Toney twice tested positive for steroids, once when he was working with Roach” add Chavez Jr to the mix and wow I can see why Pac has avoided random test for 5yrs. I think you Pac fans accusing JMM are looking under the wrong rug.

Posted December 15, 2012 12:44 pm 


Popkins

It was still a fantastic win for Marquez though, and one of the best fights I’ve ever watched live. Pac has surely slipped a bit, but Juan’s KO punch was tremendous, and would have crushed any Welterweight. Manny was winning the fight and very nearly stopped JMM himself. I’d pick Pac to win a rematch, but Marquez deserves huge credit for finally seizing his moment and rescuing a fight against the P4P no.1 from the clutches of defeat.

Posted December 15, 2012 12:37 pm 


Popkins

SRed- Age is a number. Fighters decline at different ages depending on their boxing style, and the number of tough, high level fights they’ve had. JMM may be older, but his tight defense, and impressive boxing IQ have kept him right at the top of his game, even at 39 years old. Pac’s fast temp style relies on power, speed and aggression – a style which will almost never last into the late 30′s let alone 40′s. Think back to Tyson v Lewis. Tyson was older but was a mere shadow of the guy who blitzed through the heavies in the late 80′s. But Lewis was still at his peak in 2001/02.

Posted December 15, 2012 12:27 pm 


finalfight

Manny’s about as clean as Pamela Anderson’s clunge.

Posted December 15, 2012 12:21 pm 


The Prince

More good news for Floyd: Larry Merchant will officially retire after tonight’s fight between Donaire and Arce. Looks like Larry’s wish to call a broadcast when Floyd finally loses is not going to happen. Oh well… I guess Max Kellerman is the regular now.

Posted December 15, 2012 12:07 pm 


DLW

Nice good points in this article, marquez bigness and one shot power just too good to be real. Investigate!

Posted December 15, 2012 11:52 am 


Ike

What a lot of people don’t understand is that there are a lot of LEGAL, “over the counter” drugs/supplements that athletes take to build muscle and speed recovery from difficult workouts. The line between legal and illegal supplements & PED’s is sometimes a thin one. Marquez might have used illegal PED’s. Don’t know, don’t care because IMO, Pac was definitely on something illegal in his fights vs. Cotto, Clottey, Mosley, and Margacheato. What goes around comes around. Pacquiao lost. Hopefully he comes back and delivers us more action-filled fights.

Posted December 15, 2012 11:17 am 


Supreme Court

How Pacquiao defrauded the boxing world:
These are facts, only facts…
You may yap, whinne, spin all you want, historians will remember the facts!

Oscar De La Hoya: Two losses out of his last four fights at the time he fought Pacquiao. De La Hoya had been recently beaten by Mayweather a year earlier and without a catch weight handicap. ODH was severely drained!

Ricky Hatton: Mayweather beat Hatton two years earlier by a 10th round TKO. Hatton didn’t look like the same fighter he once was after the Mayweather loss, and was staggered by fringe contender Juan Lazcano in his next fight after the Mayweather loss. Pacquiao defeated Hatton in 2009.

Miguel Cotto: Beaten by Antonio Margarito in an 11th round knockout loss a year before Pacquiao fought him. Cotto didn’t look like the same fighter he once was by the time Pacquiao fought him.

Joshua Clottey: Beaten by Cotto in Clottey’s fight before facing Pacquiao in 2010. Boxing fans wondered why Clottey was given a title shot against Pacquiao when Clottey had lost his last fight.

Antonio Margarito: Was beaten by Shane Mosley in a 9th round stoppage in 2009, and then sat out an entire year after losing his boxing license due to the hand-wrap scandal. Margarito fought a little known fringe contender by the name of Roberto Garcia and then was given a shot against Pacquiao.

Shane Mosley: Upon crushing Margarito, he challenged Pacquiao at even 140, team Pacquiao publicly turned down the fight. They waited until the man who was the ring magazine WW champion got dominated by Floy, and above all, until he was 39 yrs old to fight him.

They waited until Marquez was 38 to grant a third fight….Surprise! Marquez won in the ring but lost on the scorecards….
The first time in a decade the agreed to face a young undefeated fighter, Pacquiao lost!!!!!!!

At 39, they granted Marquez a 4th Fight: Pacquiao DESTROYED!!!!!!!

Now morons are whinning: “Pac was winning…” they pathetically say…
Well, so was Taylor against Froch; Taylor against Abraham; P. Williams against Martinez!

Get over it! You enjoyed for years the products of a fraud, good for you, It’s over!!!!!
Pacquiao is now a DAMAGE GOOD!!!!!!

Posted December 15, 2012 11:14 am 


Supreme Court

On sept 05, Pac fought Velasquez while Morales fought Raheem. Pac defeated Velasquez while Raheem defeated Morales, but Pac decided to face the looser. Morales
On November 20, 2007, José Nuñez, manager of WBO Super Featherweight champion Joan Guzmán, accused Pacquiao’s handler Bob Arum of evading a match between the two boxers to protect Pacquiao.[38] Guzmán went as far as to directly call out Pacquiao at the postfight press conference of the Pacquiao–Barrera rematch in front of the crowd at the Mandalay Bay Events Center’s media room in Las Vegas.[

Posted December 15, 2012 11:11 am 


Supreme Court

This scum bag writer is Filipino: that’s tell you right there the level of integrity where he came from. It’s also put into perspective the campaign against T. Bradley victory over Pacquiao.

PACQUIAO FRAUD:

Pacquiao is for boxing, what Madoff is for Wall street:
They claimed he won titles in 8 divisions!
Yet, through 8 divisions, he never faced a fellow belt holder!!!!!!!!!
His last division title was equivalent to a Ponzi Scheme:
He was granted a title at 154, without fighting any 154 fighter, and with zero previous fight in that division!!!!!
But off course, dellusional uneducuted Pactards claim his greatness….
He WAS the only p4p king who never faced a fellow beltholder at any of the weight class he went through!
He was a p4p king who was not the best in his own weight division!!!!!!
That alone should have been the reason for a public outrage!

“Who lives by the sword, dies by the sword”
Pacquiao has been DESTROYED!!!!!
Arum and Freddie are claiming he’ll be back within 6 months, that’s a gimmick!!!!
Pacquiao has been destroyed both in the ring and politically!!!!
Who would vote for a president whose faced has been planted in a canvas in US?

Posted December 15, 2012 11:10 am 


Puglife

Here’s an idea: if getting PEDs out of the game is too hard, let’s make ‘em mandatory instead. It ain’t cheating if everyone uses them!

Posted December 15, 2012 11:08 am 


Ike

A piss test is essentially an IQ test. If you can’t beat a urine test, you’re just an idiot. So saying that both guys’ tests came back “clean” is a half truth at best.

Posted December 15, 2012 11:07 am 


Anonymous

If steroids are that good. Why do we all let’s get on! for a few millions. If that juice is that good anyone can jump in the ring.

Posted December 15, 2012 11:06 am 


SREDMOND

Popkins, no excuses PAC Man looked pretty good before Marquez leveled him, he was 33 years old facing a 39 year old who basically had the SAME number of fights as him.. That was NOT a shell of Pacquiao that got KOed Marquez deserves 100% credit, this was the tortoise vs the hare and the Tortoise(Marquez) caught up with him…Nice attempt to downplay the enormity of this loss like PAC was 40 on a losing streak… And don’t even mention the Bradley robbery…

Posted December 15, 2012 10:59 am 


Popkins

Great fight last weekend. All boxers have to get old, but let’s not forget, Pacquiao was the fighter of the decade 00-09 for a reason. I still think that even this depleted, shell of Pacman, is capable of KOing Juan in a 5th fight – after all, he came pretty close in this match.

Posted December 15, 2012 10:32 am 


Popkins

Posted December 15, 2012 10:26 am 


Stuart T

What a Pacquiao nutthugger! how disrespectful he is being to Marquez is purely based on his own hurt from the resulting Pacquiao KO, funny how all these years everyone defended Pacquiao for PEDS yet Marquez must have been on them right? it’s totally ridiculous, they both tested clean, unless the tests are rigged that’s the result, legit KO, simple as that!

Posted December 15, 2012 10:00 am 


Love-the-Sport

This writer is stupid. There have been rumors about Manny Pacquiao and steriods for years. The idea that Pacquiao may now have gotten knocked by somebody who is rumored to be on steriods if poetic justice: PACQUIAO DESERVED THIS TO HAPPEN TO HIM.

Posted December 15, 2012 9:55 am 


no clue

“It was an instance wherein the world’s heart was one good heart for one man at one particular moment” almost made my brain implode so I steered clear of reading the entire piece .. as for peeps questioning the legitimacy of JMM knockout and possible PED use it bears saying JMM has always had a cracking punch and a good KO ability vs elite comp.. He hurt Pacman on several occasion in previous fights with long range shots but this time around Pac was barreling ahead full steam while JMM loaded up on his money right hand.. Pac’s head almost parted company with his shoulders on impact – anyone would have been koed// I’m pretty sure JMM might have cracked some bones in his hand with impact. No need for 5th fight.

Posted December 15, 2012 9:49 am 


Brenton

Yeh sounds like your a typical expert medicine man

Posted December 15, 2012 7:45 am 


SREDMOND

Beliefs mean NOTHING the hard reality is that both fighters tested clean and none of us who care about the sport are gonna sit around and let one of the 3 greatest fighters in our era be denied his just due… Marquez destroyed Manny, he did it clean and he did it in style during a Great fight where both guys looked like they were actually thinking about the fight at hand, instead of the next payday…

Posted December 15, 2012 7:13 am 


Neil(pomy)

I think curtly put it better than i did. Good post

Posted December 15, 2012 7:03 am 


third world

wouldn’t be suprised if ol’ floyd jr. been the one on the juice the whole time the way he was goin’ on about pacquiao.

Posted December 15, 2012 6:31 am 


curtley

I am a huge Manny fan but also am really a fan of JMM (would say that they are my fav 1 and 2 fighters) but really get annoyed when keyboard warriors spout BS about Ped’s.
1) You can make serious gains in size and strength by the correct training and diet (just most of you lazy idiots have never trained or taken note of their diet)
2) If you get hit with a perfectly timed counter (moving on to a punch) by an already good puncher like JMM you get KFTO
3) Can’t the Pac fans see the irony of accusing JMM of exactly what Mayweather has been accusing Manny of? Supporting these accusations are hypocrisy at the worst.
What we saw was 2 great fighters go at it hard for six rounds in a fantastic fight and the ending was shocking, brutal, beautiful and upsetting all at the same time, evoking the emotions that truly great fights should.

Posted December 15, 2012 5:39 am 


Flip star

Let it go. The chino lost

Posted December 15, 2012 5:20 am 


Boxstradomous

The punch that you don’t see is the one that kills you.

Posted December 15, 2012 5:15 am 


Boxstradomous

Where were all of you when ariza was injecting manny

Posted December 15, 2012 5:12 am 


Anonymous

Nothing but clowns on this site. Hahaha.

Posted December 15, 2012 5:06 am 


Neil(pomy)

Yes, test’s can be masked …. but that doesnt mean every test is. Get a grip guys and show some class; just like Manny did in defeat. Follow his example and accept the defeat for what it is ….. and not what you wish it to be.

Posted December 15, 2012 5:02 am 


forreal

I tried to replicate that brutal punch on my gaming system and even then i couldn’t duplicate such a whack…that’s how SURREAL it was!!

Posted December 15, 2012 5:01 am 


Neil(pomy)

Dexter; Theres no denying that PEDS are in the sport but you cant go around shouting accusations with no proof to back them up (just because you dont like the result of the fight). Weight and strength training can improve anyones strength and size even if your in your 50′s nevermind at 39.

Posted December 15, 2012 4:58 am 


Jack Lalanne

Dexter is a a fat a ss non athlete. He doesn’t believe in hard work because the only hard work this fat a ss has ever done physically is get off the couch to take a p iss.

Posted December 15, 2012 4:52 am 


Jack Lalanne

Dexter is a a fat ass non athlete. He doesn’t believe in hard work because the only hard work this fat ass has ever done physically is get off the couch to take a piss.

Posted December 15, 2012 4:51 am 


Bieber Fever

This f ag “writer” follows Bieber?

Posted December 15, 2012 4:50 am 


Koto

I dont believe Jmm was clean. Tests today dont mean nothing. Dexter you are right about Lance. He took the tests passes them but many riders came forward saying he took PEDS

Posted December 15, 2012 4:20 am 


Dexter Davis

STUPID PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM – The same crap Angel Heredia gave Marquez is the same crap Lance Armstrong and Bary Bonds took. Lance Armstrong passed all the tests but the majority of his team mates said they saw Lance take PEDS Erythropoietin and testosterone. The new PEDS today especially from Balco Labs is virtually undectable. Angel was a Balco lab chemist / dealer. JMM was on steriods. To be that strong and cut at age 39 is impossible without taking something. I dont believe the hard work crap. Not saying Marquez didnt work hard just saying that type of body and power can only come from PEDS.

Posted December 15, 2012 4:11 am 


SREDMOND

I’m beginning to enter the camp that says Marquez should retire and walk away with that win over PAC etched in stone… The disgusting, irresponsible journalism and posting going on us unreal.. Like school children guys are trying anything to detract from Marquez violent result… Get this thru your heads, that KO loss PAC just ate is gonna stand the test of time.. One of the WORST by an elite boxer in history… It’s time to celebrate Marquez until PAC gives us something to laud him for again… Sheesh

Posted December 15, 2012 3:45 am 


OCTAVIUS72

If you think Floyd give a DAMN about Pacman; your crazy. I know what he said on his interview about the fight; but I guarantee you; he was somewhere LAUGHING HIS ASS OFF; because like he said during that interview; he offered Manny more money than he made in ANY of his fights and the man turned him down and allowed his stupid ass advisors to dictate what he does with his career. Just like right now; Arum is ALREADY trying to set up a 5TH MATCH between the two for APRIL. ARE YOU SERIOUS. They needed SMELLING SALTS to wake the man up. HE HAD TO HAVE SUFFERED SERIOUS HEAD INJURIES IN THAT FIGHT; and your trying to throw him back to the wolves???? Even Manny can’t be that STUPID. He’s being USED. All his advisors care about is MAKING MONEY OFF OF HIM. And once they can’t anymore; THEY WILL SEND HIS ASS BACK HOME LOOKING PITIFUL!!!!!

Posted December 15, 2012 2:57 am 


Rob

There goes all the steriod theorys, good win for Juan Manuel

Posted December 15, 2012 2:55 am 


Proud African

Bradley beat Pac.

Posted December 15, 2012 2:38 am 


ironhorse

I don’t see what Pacquiao fans like the guy who wrote this article is whining about. Since their hero is one of the biggest opponents of strict drug testing in boxing. Are Pacquiao fans forgetting the “I’m afriad of needles excuse”.

Posted December 15, 2012 2:16 am 


Gr8t@aol.com

It’s hard to beleive manny pacroid came out clean????

Posted December 15, 2012 2:12 am 


RNS

Why are Pacquiao fans (like the author) still crying, looking for excuses or even worse looking for foul play almost a week later when both fighters have tested clean? when Pacquiao “lost” to Bradley and I read the comments from Pacquiao fans crying I understood because it was an awful decision but this, well this was a one punch demolition, there was no premature stoppage or awful decision it was just Pacquiao running straight into a right hand counter and laying face down and having to be slapped awake. there is no argument like the first 3 fights, there is no real debate, the fact is Pacquiao was KTFO and in my opinion will never be the same again. Pacquiao’s sad bitter little fans should just get over it and move on.

Posted December 15, 2012 2:05 am 


SwimmingButNotWet

LMFAO!! This is ridiculous!! Now Pac fans are talking about blood test, EPO, etc. Like they been behund blood testing this whole time. GTFO! What happened to NSAC testing being enough?? So basically now the majority agree with Mayweather’s method of testing now? Right? Is he not trying to be “Bigger than the sport” anymore? I mean that’s what’s I’m getting from all this… Too bad Roach/Pac/Arum rode the NSAC methods so hard. Because now JMM is clean under the commissions testing… The very same testing they have sworn by for the past 3yrs. And don’t come at me with “Pac agreed to testing” BS cause you’ll be wasting your time. If he really agreed, it would of been done. And if you’re going to talk about how Arum is the who is the one that refused, again, you’re wasting your time. MP calls the shots in that business venture, not Arum. He’s the $$ maker not Arum. It’s time for Arum/Roach/Pac and company to get on their knees and blow the knob of irony. No homo. NSAC clean test equals clean fighter per Top rank.

Posted December 15, 2012 2:04 am 


The Mad Scientist

Funny thing is Memo was Marquez’s s&c coach for the 3rd fight as well but no one seemed to care as long as Pacquiao got the decision and didn’t sustain any damage to continue his career..not to mention Pac’s fans wanted to continue with Floyd is ducking Pacquiao propaganda and now that it all came to end they wanna cry foul..GTFOH!

Posted December 15, 2012 1:38 am 


te tumbo

Btw, Heredia’s a genius and worth every penny. his training-regimen provided Marquez with that extra jolt, which enabled him to carry the potency of his lightweight TNT to “welter”. at this point, Pacquiao’s* old news. Marquez needs to go for Bradley and if Pacquiao* has finally snapped out of his losing streak by then, Marquez may fight him in Mexico City, guarantee Pacquiao* a flat fee, and both fighters submit to OSTing protocol. Take-It or Leave-It. Marquez just destroyed Pacquiao*. he doesn’t need Manny* any more than Martinez needed Williams after their rematch. the rivalry is OVER.

Posted December 15, 2012 1:29 am 


te tumbo

“. . . both Juan Manuel Marquez and Manny Pacquiao passed their post-fight drug scans administered by the Nevada Athletic Commission after their fight Saturday at the MGM Grand Garden in Las Vegas . . . according to executive director Keith Kizer, Marquez and Pacquiao were tested for performance enhancing drugs, masking agents and drugs of abuse, and results came back negative” (lol). if Arum is smart, he’ll PPV Freddie kissing Marquez’s natural and commission-approved ass (lol). package it as an “overtime” segment following tomorrow’s replay of Manny’s Mexicution by Juan Manuel Marquez.

Posted December 15, 2012 1:20 am 


tachyon

Only drug administered was the Pac Ass Whupper and JMM gave Pac a full dose in the 6th round. Put Pacs Ass to sleep. I said a Whuuupppp there it is.

Posted December 15, 2012 1:03 am 


The Mad Scientist

Look pactards if it’ll make you feel better Pacquiao is a dynamic explosive little fighter and I can’t think of anybody else who was around at the time that would’ve taken out guys in the fashion he did between the 2nd and 3rd Marquez fight..yes all his opponents (with exception of Bradley) during that span were more on the peak of their popularity then they were their powers (compromised as well) but still can’t think of any other fighter around at time who would’ve beaten those guys in the manner Pacquiao did..so please nomore talk about Manny beating legendary fighters of the pass, present or future..

Posted December 15, 2012 12:52 am 


Facts

A KO is what you wanted that’s what Marquez gave you, Tests?Ok that’s what Marquez demands in his next fight.Anything else Pacroids??

Posted December 15, 2012 12:42 am 


Facts

These Pactards are in denial again haha,First now Bradley now this.Kharmas a b*tch i’ve been saying it for a minute.It bit them in their hypocritical @ss haha.I love watching pac get KO’d over & over again it’s priceless. Pedman/Pacroid goes down so cry me a river 2faced Pactards lol.

Posted December 15, 2012 12:41 am 


Anonymous

I am a PAC fan but give kudos to JMM, anyone who get hit solid with an unexpected punch can KO- I think PAC was sort of exhausted that round.

Posted December 15, 2012 12:40 am 


The Mad Scientist

Hecdog not again, I thought we went over this already..you said that if Marq’s test came back clean you would give him his props, now why are you still crying..?? Wasn’t it you who said that you weren’t interested in 4th fight because it would just end the same as the other 3 or whatever..Alex Ariza has gone on record more then once saying Memo is legit so why can you do the same sice this came straight from someone from team Pac who’s a big reason for his success..Manny KTFOiao lost end of story kid..BOOM!, goes the dynamite blast heard around the world.

Posted December 15, 2012 12:39 am 


te tumbo

Marquez has never tested positive for a banned substance and had never even been accused of using anything other than legal supplements and a heavy dose of hard work and technical training. now Team Punkuiao’s* “outrage” over being accused or even suspected of using illegal substances has been replaced by their desperate and hypocritical rush to accuse another fighter of using illegal substances (lol). I Told You ALL So. nothing saintly, great, or “legendary” about Team Punkuiao*. simply promotional hype applied to a good fighter and designated cash-cow who in like in an old Hollywood plotline had been carefully protected with set-ups, began to believe his own hype, and is now experiencing the overdue challenges of competing against the best. meanwhile, Pucker-Up Freddie. Marquez’s commission-approved ass is ready to be kissed.

Posted December 15, 2012 12:33 am 


Hombre

Pacquiao got KOd cold by illegal substance. I know.

Posted December 15, 2012 12:25 am 


te tumbo

Mr. Valenzuela, do us all a favor and take a basic writing class for Manny’s* sake?! stop trying so hard to be “deep” with your laboured sentimentality and sappy attempts to capture some dufus-degree of “spirituality”. also, try and study my use of quotes because your use of quotes is amateurish and just plain Wrong. Btw, Pacquiao* was Mexicuted and planted face-first into the canvas by “Champion of the Decade” Juan Manuel Marquez. the rivalry is OVER. Viva Marquez!

Posted December 15, 2012 12:14 am 


hookoffthejab

one last fight for JMM against Bradley …

Posted December 15, 2012 12:08 am 


boom

Pactards,what your excuse now that the test are clean. On any given day,any body can be knocked out cold.With one punch,JMM removed the invincibility of pacman.Sorry but hes only human!! Better luck next time!!!!

Posted December 15, 2012 12:03 am 


Phonyao got his ass owned once more by his daddy Marquez

The last hope of pactards of Marquez being strapped from his devasting win was been KOed just like thier lame and now exposed Tranny Phonyao

Posted December 14, 2012 11:58 pm 


MMendoza

The ugliest thing in all of this is that both Marquez and Pacquiao have way too many haters who do not appreciate to the fullest the fact that both of these champions left everything in the ring for all of these four fights. The fact that we got a chance to witness this is the luckiest as boxing fans. No, Marquez didn’t win all four fights and neither did Pacquiao. I have two draws, 1 for Pacquiao and the 4th for Marquez. Oh yeah, the ugly Pactards will disagree and so will the likewise ugly Marquez-Retards. That’s one thing both haters have in common — ugly like sin.

Posted December 14, 2012 11:48 pm 


mansworld

Manny is done I thought he was dead I dont know if he seen the light but he diffentley didnt see that right lol…

Posted December 14, 2012 11:42 pm 


C

First, Bob Arum is as much responsible as any other individual for the bsence of OSDT in prizefighting, so Manny’s fans need to assign this problem to Arum before anybody else (wanna bet Arum even now will not work to achieve OSDT?). Second, Juan ought to take the fifth fight, but only for the same split that Manny had for the fourth fight.

Posted December 14, 2012 11:30 pm 


JMM

To all the pactards, plane and simple pacquiao got KTFO CLEAN, by JMM!!!

Posted December 14, 2012 11:21 pm 


Cassius Clay

Boxing get rid of PED, during my time it’s all pure boxing. Sad.

Posted December 14, 2012 11:19 pm 


Anonymous

Even if this article was written in better English, it’d still be pretty clear that the writer is an idiot.

Posted December 14, 2012 11:15 pm 


tacoBENDER

So does this now make Angel “Memo” Heredia the most sought after personal trainer in the world??.. Let’s just give credit to teacher and trainer… it takes two to tangle. Juan Manuel Marquez is great for boxing. I think this guy Angel will get alot more work now that he has turned a 39year old body into a 19year old body…JUST SAYIN’

Posted December 14, 2012 11:06 pm 


Hidalgo

“hecdog, you’re a moron.” How do ya figure that, Largo?

Posted December 14, 2012 11:05 pm 


Hidalgo

“The Marquez “negative result” can be reasonably construed as having been manipulated and self-serving due to the earlier “lapses” by certain “responsible” officials just to ensure s that the staging of Pacquiao-Marquez quadrilogy would not be jeopardized.”

Huh?

Posted December 14, 2012 11:04 pm 


largo

& so is this writer.

Posted December 14, 2012 10:59 pm 


Cassius Clay

pacman won this one though the past two fights

Posted December 14, 2012 10:57 pm 


largo

hecdog, you’re a moron.

Posted December 14, 2012 10:57 pm 


Jaguar

Love it. The IRONY of everything in regards to drug/ testing.

Love Pac as a BOXER but not the fake person outside the ring and in particular dislike the pactard fans.

Marquez SHOULD retire in all the glory, he was thieved of the deserved praise/ money and family time… again and again over the years. He had to work his way back into contention and was always going to be the underdog. Not because Manny was better as an all round fighter, it was he had more natural attributes than Marquez. Hand / Foot Speed & Power. But never count out a clever boxer, that sucker line, brains before brawn.

The 3rd fight was almost a perfect fight with a near perfect plan, but not surprisingly robbed again… This time round he took the biggest risk, opting for more power, in return hindering his speed (notably evident) which was already inferior in comparison to Manny. He took a massive risk, knowing the only way he could win was via a KO. I thought this was unrealistic, and he almost paid for it in the 4th round.

Big props to Marquez, no matter what he does (except beat Mayweather, unrealistic..) he cannot top this. Don’t satisfy Manny just because you’re getting a massive payday. You have more than enough money and am sure will continue to make millions over the years whether it’s boxing related or not. Again, don’t satisfy Manny and his fans by taking a 5th fight, let them suffer with this defeat the way you endured the unfair decisions awarded to you over the years.

Posted December 14, 2012 10:41 pm 


OCTAVIUS72

LMAO,I guess they really thought they were going to find some foul play on the part of Marquez here; lmao. Bottom line is the man ALWAYS HAD Pacman’s number. He just cashed in this time. Give up the EXCUSES and give that man his props. Manny walked into something he didn’t see coming. Happens to the best of them; just as RJJ!!!!!!

Posted December 14, 2012 10:39 pm 


The Prince

Another article whining about Pacquiao’s loss, instead of praising Marquez for doing what he needed to do in order to win the rivalry. If I was Marquez I wouldn’t accept a 5th fight until I was paid twice as much as Pacquiao.

Posted December 14, 2012 10:32 pm 


Jess

Ha Ha. Leaderman was begining to give Pacquiao all the rounds again. Then suddenly ……………. Bam!!!! MARQUEZ KO’s that little Religion hopping cry baby they call manny pacquiao

Posted December 14, 2012 10:30 pm 


Anonymous

This dude is buthurt over pacroids loss.

Posted December 14, 2012 10:29 pm 


Wantonsoup@yahoo.com

If only pac could agree to random drug testing but I guess he’s just “scared” needles.

Posted December 14, 2012 10:29 pm 


Tj

I don’t see any lucky puch at all, styles make boxers and I clearly see in the slow motion replay both of ko’s were completely premedited

Posted December 14, 2012 10:27 pm 


Jess

This writer is so full of it! Well like it or not, accept or deny it, MARQUEZ KO’d your Filipino Hero. Marquez got up each time he was knocked down, Pacquiao did not! Oh and just to rub it in a little more. Pacquiao did not even really knock Marquez down in that 5th round; check the replay, he triped Marquez with his foot. Vivia Mexico!!!!!! Viva Marquez!!!

Posted December 14, 2012 10:27 pm 


Anonymous

At first I knew he cheated but now everyone can shut up about.

Posted December 14, 2012 10:24 pm 


The Prince

Juan tested clean, like I knew he would. Pactards have simply been conned. Manny Pacquiao never had a solid chin to begin with. He was always vulnerable to a knockout by a good counter-punch. That’s why Arum and Toprank made sure Pacquiao either didn’t fight a good counter-puncher, or waited until the fighter became old enough where it wouldn’t be a threat anymore. Add in the catchweights and you see the politics that was played to make Pacquiao a superstar. They believed they could do the same to Marquez. He’s in his late thirties and though he gotten old enough for Pacquiao to dominated and keep the illusion live. But Marquez kept in great shape and was ready for Pacquiao. He end up getting the last laugh, as he should. Justice was served that night and the smoke screen named Pacquiao finally cleared.

Posted December 14, 2012 10:24 pm 


Anonymous

Juan finally shut all the pac tards and Roach up. He clearly won all 3 previous fights and made it crystal clear this time. The only thing Im surprised with was that Harold Ledderman didn’t give Paciou the win even though he was out cold for a few minutes.

Posted December 14, 2012 10:15 pm 



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