The point is and always was you said “Dundee cut Clays glove off”…..then you said he replaced the glove to gain time….Now you up and say the glove wasn’t replaced at all…..But one mute point in all of you who said “do your research Rich”….I did and I was the only one who knew what time had elapsed……Anyway…Feliz Navidad…..Posted December 23, 2012 4:58 am
the glove wasnt replaced at all but the convient tear in the glove did give ali more time then the usall 1min i n between the rd to recover. but the pt was ali was knocked down by a small heavyweight like henry cooper. so some of these big could hurt him as wellPosted December 23, 2012 4:07 am
The photo of the gloves sold for ten GsPosted December 22, 2012 3:08 pm
Junior….do your research pal ….those Baileys gloves sold at Christies auction in 2001 for £37.600…….Look it up JUNIOR…Posted December 21, 2012 1:26 pm
Anonymous…Do your research…its down it print and on film the glove was not replaced as you say..and Junior we are not talking about an auction we are referring to Anonymous claim that the glove was replaced…But if you are both so sure the glove was replaced why not back it up with a bet….say.500 pounds each …make it quick though I’d like the money before xmas…Posted December 21, 2012 12:28 pm
Rich, that incident is so famous, someone took a photo of the gloves and they recently sold at auction for ten grand. do your research palPosted December 21, 2012 7:14 am
Rch you were asking does any one elese know about dundee intentsionly ripping ali gloves in the cooper fight to give ali time to recoop in his corner after ali was knocked down with a brutal left hook to end the previous rd? Right at the bell . yes they do, Dundee has openly discusssed this and admited this himself .I am sure if you looked this up you could find more about the incident . The additional rest period was as long as it took them to take off the ripped glove off ali and put on a new one . Which Im sure dundee was in no hurry to do quickly. In time I cant say I know just how long it took .But honestly the glove ripping was not the point .The point was ali was not the flawless fighter .people have now made him out to be.. THEy believe .He flew around the ring his feet never touched the flooor. if a 185lb man like cooper can deck and smash supposedly the greatest ali with a left hook like that .Ali wasnt flawless . Ali was a master of grabbing behind the head and holding but un like when wladimer klitchko did this . ali was credited as a genius who tires fighters out with his grabbing tactics .Point is ali was one of the best but he grabbed and held he also at times fought very small inferior heavyweights but none of this is brought up .its just the klitchkos are critsised for the very same things ali is given credit forPosted December 20, 2012 10:35 pm
NEIL(Pomy)….Clay was up at 4 ….the official time by BBBC for that was 1.40…refuted later by a BBC documentary which timed the break at 1.06 .There was no gloves cut off or gloves replaced..Dundee reported to the ref there was a small tear in the glove which had occurred in the 4th round…Dundee said later he had pushed his finger into the split to make it larger…..the ref took up the time from the time keeper and continued the bout….So Neil not really a significant amount of time gained and not the grand opera Anonamous would have us believe of having his glove cut offPosted December 19, 2012 12:45 pm
Rich – Im not sure how much time he gained or how much effect it had on the actual outcome. Ali did step up a gear after that round. Ali was winning the fight before Coopers left-hook dropped him. Ali was saved by the bell and his head was all over the place when he got back to his corner. Dundee did everything he could to give Ali a bit more time to recover between rounds.Posted December 19, 2012 4:36 am
PROUD AFRICAN IF YOU THINK THAT FURY WILL BE KOED BY WILDER. BUT FURY IS AFARAID TO STEP IN WITH WILDER THEN LET WILDER STEP IN WITH ADAMAK . ADAMEK WILL FIGHT ANY ONE. HE IS SMALL FOR A HEAVYWEIGHT AND ISNT REALLY A BIG HITTER. SO A LOSS TO ADAMEK PROBALLY WOULD HURT WILDER PHYSICALLY . EVERY TIME ADAMEK STEPS IN WITHA BIG HEAVYWEIGHT i THINK HE IS TO SMALL. BUT WITH THE EXPECTION OF KLITCHKO ADAMEK COMES OUT ON TOP. HE HAS BEATEN GRANT, ARREOLA ,TRAVIS WALKER AND OTHER LARGE HEAVY WEIGHTS . HE ALSO BEAT THE SMALL BUT TALENTED , EDDIE CHAMBERS. ADAMEK IS CERTAINLY NOT UNBEATABLE . SO A GOOD WIN OVER ADAMEK WOULD VAULT WILDER AHEAD OF THE WHIT FIGHTERS LIKE FURY OR DAVID PRICE . BUT UNTIL WILDER TAKES ON A GUY LIKE ADAMEK OR BANKS i WOULD HOLD OFF ON ALL THAT BIG TALK ABOUT WHO WILDERS GOING TO KO . BECAUSE THE GUY HASNT EVEN BEAT FIGHTS LIKE CHISORA 4 LOSSES IN A ROW OR KEVIN JOHNSON WHO A DECENT BOXER CERTAINLY NOT GREAT. FOR NOW EVEN YOU HAVE ADMIT THE GUY IS CHERRY PICKING HIS FIGHTSPosted December 19, 2012 2:20 am
Fury hiding in England…lol.Did you see his last fight…Johnson is american last time I looked.And was a guy who was suppose to beat Fury…as many said..lol.Posted December 18, 2012 11:10 pm
If Fury is “hiding in the UK” then surely Wilder with his 27-0 record is proof that hiding in the US is infinitely easier. For a guy who’s been a pro for about 4 years I would say his career is about on track. Now compare that to Wilder, Mitchell, Price and Povetkin…….Posted December 18, 2012 8:45 pm
Fury is a joke, a clown, and a novice.Posted December 18, 2012 7:25 pm
Puglife is obviously another British boxing fan in denial lol. For someone who calls themself Puflife, I’d think you’d be a little more educated and realize these British heavywieghts are frauds.Posted December 18, 2012 7:00 pm
Tyson the fraud Fury is a punk. He has never faught a serious contender and acts as if he is the next Klitschko. Either guy that he called out would knock him out of the ring. Fury has no power, is extremely slow, and if Chisora could rock him than I know of at least ten other heavywieghts who would crush this oversized turd. Talk is cheap and Fury is a classless idiot. This is like Marc Sanchez saying he is a better QB than Brady and Manning, it is an absolute joke. Quit hiding in England, come to America, and get your sluggish ass rocked by Wilder or Mitchell because you don’t have the power to stop them.Posted December 18, 2012 6:57 pm
It really doesn’t matter what Fury has to say about Wilder or Price since talk is cheap and it’s really just a way to promote himself in the media. Hope all three have a chance to settle the matter in the ring. Given Wilder’s punch he can’t be counted out against either British HW but I’d favor Fury and Price over him. Questions about Wilder’s chin and overall boxing IQ have yet to be answered. Wilder needs to step up his comp, fight guys like Sprott, Jennings, or even Tony Thompson (whether the Tiger wins or loses against Price) before we can weigh his real chances.Posted December 18, 2012 3:51 pm
In the time it took you to insult me you could have answered the question,if you knew what you were talking about…I was hoping for more Ernie.,…like help me with my insignificance and ignorance.Show me the way to achieve your knowledge on boxing…Posted December 18, 2012 3:24 pm
It’s Me, Ernie
You will probably fit better here: http://needlepoint.about.com/Posted December 18, 2012 2:08 pm
Ernie…Decker… its old news if you quote gossip….So how much time did he buy…just a question, shouldn’t be hard for all you up to date boxing experts…If you want to butt in with your opinion back it up with some facts and help me to keep up, if you can……Posted December 18, 2012 2:04 pm
@Dribble (good user name btw)
Talking “funny” and stupid look on faces would describe most fighters – more than Fury. So what’s your f’n point besides you don’t like Fury?
It’s Me, Ernie
He gained enough time to recuperate from the damage, it’s old news. Your ignorance is only surpassed by your insignificance.Posted December 18, 2012 1:02 pm
NEIL (Pomy) How much time did he gain by Dundee as you claim splitting his glove…..Whoops,perhaps you know..you say his glove was cut, how…Anonymous how much time did Dundee get by cutting his glove off .Red Ryan where did you check your public knowledge,I’d like to check it, so i will not appear real dumb…Nice to hear from real boxing experts and get their advice…Hope to hear from you soon…Posted December 18, 2012 12:55 pm
redmond is an eliteist p rick
Why does redmond even post here anymore? constantly scolding people. maybe find a forum where people are more on your level you arrogant bastard.Posted December 18, 2012 12:52 pm
Nothing worse than you guys whining about the TOUGH tactics that are used in the sport of boxing… Some of you act like this is NOT a combat sport, every fighter deals with tough customers and the ones who are Champions learn to adjust and prevail.. Prize fights should NOT be sparring matches, you are there to HURT your opponent and impose yourself on him physically… Roughing a guy up is part of the sport, Great fighters like a FMJ handle such tactics and punish their opponents for the insolence…Posted December 18, 2012 11:11 am
If you took the top 20 HWs in the world right now and retired them Wilder would still never become champion. I won’t even go into the obvious flaws he showed on Saturday night, just the fact that he was fighting that calibre of opponent in his 27th fight shows his career trajectory. As far as David Price goes, he needs to stop obsessing about Tyson Fury and look at his goddamn date of birth; the guy has maybe 4 fights at the top level before he’s past it so if he wants to stay on the Sexton-Harrison-Chisora level then fine but if he wants to move up then the time to do it is yesterday and if Tyson Fury (a man with time on his hands) won’t fight him then pick somebody else and get on with it. Either of them would beat Wilder in a heartbeat though, Wilder is nothing more than the new Tye FieldsPosted December 18, 2012 10:07 am
Does Fury have an extra chromozone or what? The way he talks out the side of his mouth, and the stupid look on his face would suggest yes.Posted December 18, 2012 9:16 am
“I respect the Klit brothers but the punch punch grab that they do makes for boring fights. They have to be respected for their dominance but i wanna see an exciting puncher take over.”
You’re an idiot. Vitali has never fought that way in his entire career. Wlad has fought that way on occasion. So you obviously don’t know what you’re talking about.Posted December 18, 2012 7:45 am
Wilder is another dumb African American fighter….Posted December 18, 2012 7:42 am
Everyone seems to know that his glove was cut to give him recovery time. Well, everyone except Rich. HahahahaPosted December 18, 2012 5:18 am
It is a well known fact that Dundee split Ali’s glove to gain him more time to recover. Angelo Dundee admitted so himself years before he died.Posted December 18, 2012 3:55 am
So Dundee cut Alis glove off to rest him….Does anyone else know about this apart from you……..Posted December 18, 2012 3:40 am
Anonymous – you know boxing history, and not through biased lenses.
Yeah, you’d think Ali WAS flying around the ring the way some describe his fights.
What I find endlessly amusing is how some fans find the HW div. “boring” esp. regarding Wlad, when Wlad – to a large style extent – is just a bigger, stronger version of Ali. Except that Wlad is fighting bigger opponents. Hell, Haye is faster and a bigger puncher than almost all of Ali’s foes and look how Haye fared vs Wlad.Posted December 18, 2012 3:34 am
Ali was flying around the ring is true . but dont forget a 190lb henry cooper decked clay and had him so out dundee cut off ali gloves off to rest him .
Ali was flying around the ring when he was ClayPosted December 18, 2012 1:30 am
Decker you bring up a excellent point about Ali. No one was better then Ali at grabbibg another fighters head, and pulling it down in the clinch then Ali . He said this him self. how that tactic tired many of his opponets. He also laid on the ropes and actually let other fighter punch him in the body until they tired themselves out . The rope adope ,Thou if you listen to the descripitions of his fights now you think the guy was flying around the ring so fast his feet werent touching the ground.Posted December 18, 2012 12:59 am
lol at this guy basically describing himself while trying to downplay price/wilder. Its also probably the most obvious duck I’ve ever seen, saying both of them are untested so they should fight each other in order to avoid fighting either.Posted December 18, 2012 12:14 am
Can’t blame tyson for hyping himself, but it’s also hilarious. His best win was against an out-of-shape Chisora, and Chisora ‘aint much even at his best.
Price is untested & lacks experience, and Wilder has some defensive flaws, but both men hit massivley hard and both men are very fast. They can both improve their weaknesses.
Fury, on the other hand, has slow hands and only average power. That’s not going to get better with age. He’ll be a gatekeeper, nothing more.Posted December 18, 2012 12:01 am
Fury has better skills then Wilder…and proved himself much more in the ring.Wilder seems to have a good punch but dosent compare to Fury in overall ringmanship.Posted December 18, 2012 12:00 am
I resemble thatPosted December 17, 2012 11:32 pm
Fury>Price>Johnson>Wilder. I think Fury summed it up pretty accurately. Until Wilder fights someone with a pulse, we have no clue how good he is. Essentially Wilders last win is equivalent to Fury’s 2nd win which was a 21-3 fighter. Pretty much a fighter then would beat up anyone in a bar and rules his club, but get murdered as soon as they get matched against top 100 comp. That is not saying these guys are bums. They’ll kick anyone’s ass that is on these forums.Posted December 17, 2012 11:30 pm
LOL, why? Only in the past 10-15 yrs has boxing had true global competition… were is it written that the US has to dominate the HW (or other) divisions for boxing to be “exciting”. You’re like many fans who’s boxing “excitement” is derived from whether you IDENTIFY (nationally or racially) with the winning fighter.
“I respect the Klit brothers but the punch punch grab that they do makes for boring fights. They have to be respected for their dominance but i wanna see an exciting puncher take over.”
hey white boy vitalis at the end of his career but I dont think his style should be confused with wlads I dont see vitali jab and grab his ko rate as far as heavyweights goes is second only to marciano granted he does stay outside and controls distance with his freaky long reach he doesnt rush in to shots. but his head movement and the angles he takes both with his punches make him a punishing fighter.in his own way his defense is as effective as floyd mayweathers .Posted December 17, 2012 8:41 pm
david price and wilder arent that young to be fighting the type of opposition there fighting to me is over catious . i neversaw price even fight I just know so far he has beaten old guy.I see all those safe fights dont seem to be teaching wilder much he has power but your born with that. boxing wise he seeems to have many faults. that those easy fights are not correcting. so its time for him to step up some even a littlePosted December 17, 2012 8:31 pm
tommymac has the beatPosted December 17, 2012 8:10 pm
Wilder cracks me up because he’s an idiot when he talks and makes facial expressions like he beat the world but… He hasn’t… Only BUMSPosted December 17, 2012 7:36 pm
I want to see Deontay catch a solid barrage from Arreola and stay on his feet and win. Then, I’ll think he’s legit!Posted December 17, 2012 7:32 pm
Fury has faced the better Openents but were not exactly talking top ten world class here, we have seen more from him with aspects as going the distance and getting up from a knock down and being hurt a few times ( remember the hardest he was ever hit was by himself) but he has taken a quicker easier route to the top and opting for vitalis ibf title which he will prop retire from which gives furys only chance of winning a world title as waldamir would destroy him. The power is obvious in wilder and price but only better opposition will prove there worth I say goodluck to them all and I hope they get to fight each other my money would be on price then wilder then fury but only because I’ve not seen much of wilder and a lot of the other 2Posted December 17, 2012 7:19 pm
peej,i don’t think Wilder would hit price with a shot like that,it was pretty clear that kelvin price had no power,a silly Roy Jones stance with horrible defence ,especially while in motion,and Wilder caught kelvin just prior with what looked like a shot to the back of the head,not intentionally…but kelvin was already badly hurt.The point is David Price has serious power,probably the same power in his stiff jab that Wilder had in that booming right hand that he launched from one corner of the ring to the other….Wilder will be flattened the first time he steps up to world class.That’s why his handlers are feeding him canon fodder,they know he’s not ready yet.But at least he stays active and fights frequently,but he needs to step up in order to learn and improve.Posted December 17, 2012 7:01 pm
Well Niether of the fighters have fought any real challengers were all clutching at straws here all 3 need to step up in class next year there are a few unbeaten Europeans to fight but everyone is far to protected so this discussion will continue unroll some real fights are made as for k brothers they are far too good for anyone right now were just have to wait for age to take its causePosted December 17, 2012 6:47 pm
Hennessy won’t let him fight anyone with a pulse because of his tv contract. Fury can say whatever he likes but actions speak louder.Posted December 17, 2012 6:38 pm
Fury certainly talks alot. Everybody is talking about that big right Wilder landed but did anybody notice that Price was already hurt and that right hand just put the icing on the cake. He had no defense for it because he was already hurt. But he is a big guy but he doesn’t work enough. Saw no jab from him, only his big shots.Posted December 17, 2012 6:11 pm
my god this is and has been such a horrible era of heavyweight boxing. Us fans from the U.S need an exciting and skilled heavyweight badly, thats why everyone is so quick to jump on Wilders nuts. He does have that scary right hand but needs alot of work if he ever wants to become a dominant champ worth remembering. I respect the Klit brothers but the punch punch grab that they do makes for boring fights. They have to be respected for their dominance but i wanna see an exciting puncher take over.Posted December 17, 2012 6:01 pm
he had very few am fights, he basically had to learn as a pro. the fact that he won an Olympic bronze medal after only 21 am fights shows he’s got natural talent. Manswell and Price were slight step ups, if he fights Jennings and beats him he’ll prove he’s legit.Posted December 17, 2012 4:49 pm
Word on the street was that Tyson Fury and Amir Khan met at a party. They had to be physically held apart.
Fury is a complete Class C joke.Posted December 17, 2012 4:31 pm
Box smart are you Tyson fury in disguise? Better than Ali think your having a laugh mate he beats Johnson and now better than Ali?Posted December 17, 2012 4:28 pm
Tyson Fury is the biggest name in the Heavyweight division he’s a born winner and is destined to be the GREATEST of all times even better then AliPosted December 17, 2012 4:15 pm
Who does Tyson Fury think he is really? Trying to call the shots and telling other fighters who they need to fight in order to get a shot at him?? Who is he? No one gains anything from beating him hes no world champion and hes becoming a joke with his stupid unintelligent rants! Price vs Wilder would be a great fight …. both 2008 medallists and both undefeated I’d have Price to win all day but that fight appeals to me a lot more than either fighting fury hes a punch bag and now hes lost weight hes also lost power that much was obvious against Johnson! The best out the bunch is price then wilder then fury a distant third the best fighter he has fought is johnson a former world title challenger who has done nothing since and will do nothing again! Price if you want to get technical has fought two former world title contenders and former european champions in his last two fights I give him more credit for cleaning up the british scene and aiming to win the titles outright than i give fury for any of his wins over small slow over the hill/or never will be fighters needs to get real hes boring now and sooner he fights anyone decent and looses the better so we can all ignore him as not being relevant … well even less relevant!Posted December 17, 2012 3:54 pm
How anyone can like this delusional ignorant jackass is beyond me.Posted December 17, 2012 3:47 pm
I like the “former British and Commonwealth” line. The reason he is a former belt holder is because he dumped them and ran so he wouldn’t need to fight Price. Fury is the biggest hype train around. Soft as butter with no coordination. I did like him in Moon Raker though.Posted December 17, 2012 3:39 pm
It’s Me, Ernie
Fury does a better job trashing himself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dxPO_Z57xgPosted December 17, 2012 2:15 pm
Fury by wide UD vs. WilderPosted December 17, 2012 2:06 pm
As for Haye, he has lost all my respect. He fights when he feels like it. A heavyweight Mayweather–the new boxing business model–and it sucks.Posted December 17, 2012 1:33 pm
Puglife, if Wilder hits Price with that right, Price is all done. I’d like to see Price fight Helnius and Fury fight Pulev and then the winners fight each other for a crack at Wlad and some nice $$$$$$.
Wilder can clean up the US situation in the mean time and put Areola out of his food-crazed misery.
None of these guys will fight each other in the near future. Too much money to be made down the line. Lot’s of great possibilities.Posted December 17, 2012 1:31 pm
Fury has fought the better comp but Wilder has the medal and knockout punch. Both guys would in all likelihood be outclassed and probably destroyed by Price, but it would be fun to see them fight with the winner taking on Price. Unfortunately, the reality is that GBP, Wilder’s promoter, is going to match him with washed-up ex-champs and faded contenders (admittedly, still a step-up for Wilder at this point, which tells you something about his level of competition so far). So, while we’d like to see Wilder in there against Fury or Price, or even Americans like Bryant Jennings, Arreola or the winner of the Banks-Mitchell rematch, we’ll instead see him in against the sad, pathetic, flabby shell of Hasim Rahman, or maybe a Fres Oquendo, or a Michael Grant (Grant would actually not be half bad, honestly, given Wilder’s weak opposition to date).Posted December 17, 2012 1:24 pm
it would be a great fight between them wilder end fury … i think fury would win decision …Posted December 17, 2012 12:51 pm
Both Wilder and Fury need to stow the trash talk. Price (like the Klits) keeps away from it and thereby gains more respect. Fury is starting to come off as a poor man’s Haye. As for Kingpin beating Wilder, that will happen when Bernie Madoff walks the streets of NYC.
STFU Fury and do your talking in the ring.Posted December 17, 2012 12:26 pm
Hmmm, I’m sure Fury would love David Price and Wilder to meet so as to keep at least one of these genuinely big punchers away from his dubious chin.
I agree Boxing Barlow. Being British I am probably biased but I cant see many people in the world standing a chance with David Price apart from Wladimir. He has scary power. But like you say, his chin is untested in the pro game. I loved in the olympics how Camarelle took him apart. He seemed to just crumble. In the pro’s he’s looked like a completely different beast though.
Fury is a decent fighter ad so is Wilder, but Price is really something special. The power he has is off this planet and he makes fighters who have in the past been very durable look like they are shakey fighters with glass jaws! A lot of his punches dont even seem to connect properly with glancing punches that look like they should be absorbed taking heavy weights out. Ive been shouting it on this web site for a few years now but people will really start to see, Price is the future of heavy weight boxing. The only thing left to really test is his chin!Posted December 17, 2012 10:26 am
Everybody gets excited after winning a fight, especially after winning in the fashion that he did. However he was talking as if he’d just won the title. It’s great that he’s got 26ko’s from 26 fights but he needs to improve his opposition to get any respect. If he’s as good as his confidence suggests then he should be fighting someone at least the level of Chris Arreola.
Would favor Tyson or David Price over Wilder at this point. Fury has fought the best of the three, followed by Price and Wilder. Wilder is narrowing the gap in opposition though and Bryant Jennings would be a good one to fight next.Posted December 17, 2012 9:49 am
That right hand of Wilders is very fast. His opposition is improving.Posted December 17, 2012 9:47 am
Ok it’s Wilder vs Fury now. They should get it on. Deontay Wilder will knock Fury out. He’s got power in both fists.Posted December 17, 2012 9:36 am
All Wilder has is a right hand. a KO artist thats it a good fighter will outbox himPosted December 17, 2012 9:22 am
Boytsov would smack Fury and WilderPosted December 17, 2012 8:54 am
Furys ducking Wilder and David Price cause theyd both shatter his glass jaw. Featherfisted gypsy Pajkic who has a less than 20% KO rate hurt Fury badly and almost had him out with a right hand and he punches like a HW Malignaggi, he never even stuns anyone and he had Fury down and in serious trouble from one girly right hand! Furys sloppy defensively and both Wilder and Price are far more capable boxers than Pajkic with far better speed so theres no way in hell Fury avoids a big right from these powerful guys for 12 rounds and once it lands Furys glass jaw will be in a million pieces. Fury also has no power so even thougj Price and Wilder have shaky chins themselves Fury doesnt have the pop to hurt either guy. Fury needs to man up and fight one of them.Posted December 17, 2012 8:54 am
OK……Firtha, Maddalone, Pajkic, Power, Nasciemento, and Rogan are all AS GOOD AS or BETTER THAN Kelvim Price. And Chisora and Johnson would both be favored to beat Wilder atm. Don’t get me wrong, this was a huge win for Wilder, but anyone who compares resumes between either Fury and Wilder or Fury and Price and comes to the conclusion that Fury hasn’t fought anyone either in comparison…..well………DKSAB.Posted December 17, 2012 7:35 am
Swedish Boxing Fan
Deontay Wilder (26-0, 26 KO’s) is in my view a better prospect then Tyson Fury. I mean Fury vacated the Brittish and Commonwealth titles for nothing? Yes so it was in order to not clash with David Price, his suposted rival. Fury have nothing to back up his talk so he should not say much.Posted December 17, 2012 7:27 am
The only trashing Fury should do is AFTER he fights and beats Deontay… Or Price, or a top 10 fighter…
Fury the clown strikes again. Just stop talking man!Posted December 17, 2012 7:19 am
Id like to see plan B with Wilder!Posted December 17, 2012 6:13 am
True, Fury is untested, too, but he’s improved a lot in his last fight.
Who writes this rubbish? How on planet earth can Wilder’s oppostion be compared to Fury’s? The writer needs to take his head out from Wilder’s backside I’m afraid!
They should meet up at some point I dont know when wilder didnt look that good to me either but if a heavyweight can wack and wilder looks like he can that can make up for a lot of faultsPosted December 17, 2012 3:55 am