It’s Me, Ernie.
AssyrianGod2-Excellent points…Posted January 26, 2013 7:55 pm
Hidalgo.., My disagreement with Chodash is that 7 random aficionados would unanimously say Marciano was better than Wladimir Klitschko. Seven random Americans wouldn’t agree to that—much less Europeans. My second point was fat boys aren’t giants. My third point was a 6’3”X210lbs man with fabulous speed, power, skill, and athleticism could still possibly win the Heavyweight Championship—if he got lucky—but 184-pounders like Patterson or Marciano don’t have a chance anymore. That’s why we created the cruiserweight division … The 1950’s had the smallest Heavyweight Champions and challengers of any decade. Joe Frazier was undefeated too—until he met a guy 217 X 6’3” who was a great puncher. Marciano never fought anyone like Foreman. Patterson never fought anyone like Liston in the 1950’s. He avoided Sonny as long as he could … Ergo we now have a 200lb division.Posted January 26, 2013 6:50 pm
Elenore the Hag
One of the worse psots in ESB history. This moron of a writer states the obvious. Bigger is better. No kidding kid,Posted January 26, 2013 6:38 pm
I agree with the earlier comments about the reasons for having weigh-in the day before – ie as a safety thing to try and prevent dehydrated boxers getting in the ring. At the same time, with the likes of Chavez Jr it’s clear some fighters really are taking it to an extreme. I know that usually there are preliminary weight checks to make sure that fighters aren’t doing anything too extreme, but I’m not sure how to square this particular circle; saying that boxers are only allowed to gain x amount of weight following the official weigh-in effectively means that you might as well increase the official weight limit for a division and do the weigh-in on the day anyway. Maybe the thing to do is state that the weigh-in has to be on the day, but that the fighters also have to show that they are not dehydrated by more than a certain amount within an hour of the weigh-in – though how you check this quickly I’m not sure. Unless and until that becomes possible, I think on safety grounds we have to stick with the current system – not because it’s a good system, but because currently it’s the least bad one….Posted January 26, 2013 6:03 pm
It’s Me, Ernie.
First of all, as usual Tard doesn’t know his ass from a hole in the ground. Marciano was from a completely different era in heavyweight boxing. It was obviously a huge draw in those days and much better fights. Putting Marciano up against the lame Klits would be like putting Brian Viloria in with Chad Dawson, makes no sense.Posted January 26, 2013 1:50 pm
a WELL conditioned small guy is very hard to handle if he can punch , stay low and has quickness…..the guys who beat Wlad were not exceptionally big and not even in great condition but could punch…chris Byrd although losing to Vitaly when fight was stopped had no business going so many rounds if Vit was so great…..so any heavyweight with skill, conditioning and power is very dangerousPosted January 26, 2013 12:56 pm
“They unanimously voted for Wladimir—because he’s much bigger, taller,..” You’re contradicting yourself, Tark. “Size” was exactly Chodash’s point. You just agreed with him, no matter what else you wrote in your response. The heavyweight division is a joke–unlimited? Get real. Much of the Klitschkos dominance has to do with their size–not their skill, even though that is also abundant.Posted January 26, 2013 10:55 am
Marquez was comfortable at 135 when he faced FMJ, and Floyd’s reach is unusual for someone his size period, Marquez was able to bring Pacquaio down badly above 140 pounds whereas he could not win a single round off Floyd… Mayweather was not very physical with Marquez he just boxed him senseless one could deduce no matter what the weight Floyd was WAY too much for Marquez and he still would be…Posted January 26, 2013 10:43 am
Size is only advantage if you learn how to use it.If you are a lumbering,slow,plodding,poorly balanced,poorly aerobically conditioned Frankenstein,with poor ring IQ and no idea how to exploit your size/reach,like Wach,then that size is NOT an advantage,it becomes a disadvantage.A much smaller,but skilled guy like Haye,ould easily win.However,wehn that smaller,skilled athletic,mobile guy faces a much bigger heavyweight,who is equally as skilled,with equal ring iq,and almost as athletic and fast,then that extra size is leveraged.Posted January 26, 2013 7:47 am
Thank you Alden, best article I’ve read in a while on a very topical area. I think I might have to join you in the debate soon.Posted January 26, 2013 7:36 am
I think it’s a very human thing to want to compare eras, because it’s a very human thing to want an easy answer. But there isn’t. Size aside, there’s also a lot of other factors to consider (styles, gloves, rule changes, etc.) that make comparisons irrelevent. Ultimately it’s just a game.Posted January 25, 2013 9:02 pm
The K bros are at the top due to skill and size. Dont forget they are not undefeated. I recently watched Holyfield/ Bowe 2 and saw the blueprint for beating the bigger men. Holyfield threw several punches back at Bowe for every time Bowe hit him. The thinking behind this is that when conditioning is even the bigger guy has less anerobic fitness recovery. Granted you have to have a comparable skillset and good heart and chin to match.Secondly in the weights under heavyweight boxers nutritional coaches seem to be favouring bodybuilder diets to make weight. That is they have a heavier protein intake, deplete the carbs until after the weigh in. Then straight after the weigh in bulk out on carbs. Thats why Chavez jr looks gaunt at weigh ins and looks massive on fight night. I think competative bodybuilders eat carbs every 2 hours with 24 hours before a show. ( thats what I been told in the gym).
“despite what some would say about his fight with Marquez, he [Mayweather] didn’t need to be much bigger”
Marquez attempted to transform himself from a fighter who had always campaigned at around 125lb into someone ready to challenge the world no. 1 at 147lb in just over a year. He is also considerably shorter than Mayweather and had a five inch reach disadvantage. Are you really suggesting that these factors are irrelevant, and that if Mayweather had had the same height and reach as Marquez, and they’d met at (say) 125 or 130lb instead of 147, we know the outcome would have been the same?!!!Posted January 25, 2013 8:15 pm
If Marciano were alive in this era he would probably be a Super Middleweight, after all, he fought in the 180s most of his career. Plus is not JUST about size with the K brothers, they’re also very skilled. Wlad in his last fight was actually the smaller man and he showed incredible leg movement, superior hand speed and, now that he’s more relaxed in the ring, pretty good conditioning.
The overall content is definite truth.
Mayweather – I have to disagree. he weighed 160 lbs for that fight.
Weight needs to go back to day of fight.
But like everything else in this country.
Indeed. Remember when Ali made fun of Foreman and called him the Mummy? We got a bunch of mummy’s in the HW division these days.Posted January 25, 2013 4:46 pm
Being too big has historically had disadvantages – look at Valuev, Wach. Being slower, less manoueverable, worse conditioning, muscle or joints injuries being more common etc. First and foremost someone like Wlad is a very professional athlete, he is fast and powerful for his size, and were he 4 inches shorter and 30lbs lighter, he would no doubt be faster than he is now. The bar is gradually being moved on how big you can be and stay effective, but the population as a whole is getting bigger too anyway.
It isn`t size that is keeping the Klitschko’s on top,it is the fact they are skillful and effective, and there is a lack of skilled opponents, potential challengers actually honing their skills in meaningful fights. The pool is shallow enough at the moment that your best win can be over Kevin Johnson in a snoozefest, or Travis Walker and you are then tabbed as ready to be thrown into the ring with the champPosted January 25, 2013 4:13 pm
I think the presumption this applies to the Klits is fallacious the reality is that ALOT of these big HW fighters plain out SUCK no matter how tall they are… This is one of the reasons that people are preoccupied with finding a Wlad clone when the truth is most of these guys are not displaying the assets necessary to really dominate… BUT because they are 6″6 people assume they can REALLY fight ie Helenius, Wilder and some of these other dud fighters…I mean seriously Wach was GARBAGE the dude had NO skills whatsoever in that ring aside from his head being a massive targetPosted January 25, 2013 3:53 pm
I agree with the premiss of the article to some degree but your example (Klitchko or Marciano) does bring out the old man aficionado in me. Vatali has far more skill than Marciano ever had. The Rock was tough as nails and could hit like a sledge hammer but he had no subtly to his game at all. Klitchko may also lack a certain fineness but he is a master at hand to hand combat. His ability to control a fight and dictate the pace is one of the best in the game. Good article, bad example. Klitchko wins because of skill first NOT size. (also great counter post SRedmond… I agree)Posted January 25, 2013 3:46 pm
Comparing Marciano and Klitchko is ridiculous. Why are these so called boxing experts still living in the past? This is the one of the few sports that are not measured in time or numbers. We all know that the modern athletes are bigger, stronger, faster and better trained. In the late 50′s an NFL offensive guard weighed 240 pounds, today they are well over 300. Could those guys play today? I don’t think so. Mark Spitz couldn’t make many college swim teams and he won 7 gold medals. How would Bolt do against Jesse Owens? The same would apply to todays’ boxers. Louis, Marciano, Frazier, Tyson wouldn’t stande a chance against Lewis or the Klitchkos. But you experts can keep dreaming and living in the past. Happy dreams!Posted January 25, 2013 3:44 pm
the klitschko bros. are not only big guys, they are talented and always in great shape. that is the main reason that they keep winning not their size. arreola was pummeled by vitali and he blamed himself not klitschko for being too big for him.Posted January 25, 2013 3:11 pm
same day weigh in is logical and fair, and high time it was implemented.Posted January 25, 2013 2:49 pm
Also this convo generates a 2 sided argument on the one hand size is usually perceived as an advantage, YET when Pacquiao gets in the ring with MUCH bigger fighters ie Margo and ODH who had to make weight he is derided even though they are demonstrably bigger boxers… So which is it??? Being bigger an advantage? or a disadvantage? Or is it just ANOTHER bunch of excuses in the Sub HW divisions to explain losses and underperformances??? Boxing is disgusting in this regard the results nowadays are always open to peripheral discussions ie trainers, depression, drained and the list goes on and on… Nothing like Mayweather who keeps winning and thus does not have to make excuses when his hand is raised.Posted January 25, 2013 2:34 pm
The only division where this is really a relevant convo is at HW where the discrepancies can be extreme ie 30 pounds or more…In the lower weights we see some outliers who come to the ring HUGE ie Chavez Jr but this is not exactly the norm… We forget while Chavez Jr goes up in weight his opponents do also and its up to them to negate his advantages… Fighters have to determine the division they are best suited to fight in and deal with that accordingly being 4 or 5 pounds heavier fight day does NOT necessarily mean you are stronger or better able to win the bout…Floyd weighs in close to the WW limit even when he fights at 154 YET he has been able to outfight and out slick his bigger opponents ie Cotto, Mosley,Ortiz (14pounds) and others…If you are truly the BETTER fighter a few pounds is not going to make the difference in the ring that is just an excuse and its up to each fighter to determine his optimal divison and fight there…Posted January 25, 2013 2:28 pm
Also, “Kid” you clearly know nothing about the lower weight divisions like flyweight. Guess what? 3-4 pounds make a big difference when you only show to fight at 112 pounds anyway. In the past, there were a lot of fighters who were too small for bantamweight but too big for flyweight. I don’t think the Alphabet Soup guys changed someone’s body type.Posted January 25, 2013 2:19 pm
So Wladimir Klitschko isn’t the best heavyweight in the division….he’s just the “hardest to beat.”
LOL. Maybe if he would be the best HW in the world after all if it was EASIER to beat him. I propose he comes to the ring wearing handcuffs.Posted January 25, 2013 2:15 pm
I think this: Keep the day-before weigh in but add/institue a day-of weigh in. Then, put a policy in place to prevent fighters from gaining, say, 5% back. That would help prevent 20+ lbs jumps like we have been seeing in some fighters (JCC jr, Alvarez, etc.) and keep it fair. After all, it is about fighter safety and dehydration can be dangerous for brain damage but so can being in the ring with a guy 2,3, or 4 weight classes north of the contracted weight.Posted January 25, 2013 1:41 pm
I think they should keep day-before weigh-ins but then institute a limit on how much one can gain the next day and have a second day-of weigh in. That would help solve the 20+ lbs jumps. Eg fighter weight can only increase by 5% or something like that.Posted January 25, 2013 1:34 pm
The article is spot on…boxing should organize itself like the UFC. Take the power away from the dbag promoters…Posted January 25, 2013 1:24 pm
Some fighters dry out massively to make weight, it has its pros and cons. If their opponents choose to completely disregard this element of the sport, that’s their own problem too. Weigh-in the day before as it currently works, is perfect. Boxing is a business and these formalities require appropriate time-frames (see weigh-in shenanigans cancelling the fight between Michael Spinks and Eddie Mustafa Muhammad). Those who want same-day weigh-ins also want to ban weightlifting and protein powder and make guys fight on orange juice in some league system with a national commission controlling the sport etc.etc. Unsubstantiated old-timer love.Posted January 25, 2013 1:04 pm
This writer says.., “If the question of whether Wladimir Klitschko or Rocky Marciano was the better fighter was raised in a room full of boxing aficionados, it would be quite obvious that Marciano would unanimously get the nod.” I just surveyed 7 professional boxers between the ages of 19 and 36. They unanimously voted for Wladimir—because he’s much bigger, taller, faster, stronger, and more skillful. If I asked 7 Italian-American sports writers over the age of 70 I’m certain the result would be mixed. Michael Moorer weighed 250 pounds for some of his fights. He was a Light Heavyweight Champion at one time but he got fat… Foreman weighed 217 when he smashed Frazier… Eating fatburgers won’t make anyone a giant—they make you fat. Tyson, Holyfield, and Haye all won versions of the heavyweight title after 1994 … It’s still possible for a 210 pound man to win all the heavyweight titles if he has great athleticism, skill, speed, and punching power.Posted January 25, 2013 12:45 pm
The initial reason for weight in before fight is to allow the fighter to rehydrate and so cause less chance of brain damage ! the problem is it is being abused and people putting 20 pound on fight night is by far an advantage! If they carnt make the weight then they should fight at a higher weight without the fear of dehydration ! Bsically I think this day before the fight weigh in is wrong and have done ever since it was introduced!Posted January 25, 2013 12:34 pm
Good points. Glad to see you’re writing again, Alden.Posted January 25, 2013 12:23 pm
what do you mean the hardest to beat, damm the size if you are the best you will beat anything put in fromt of you. everyone looking for a hand out or excuese these days. man the f***k up, it is a fight or stay out of the ring. this is a pu**y writer and the way this country is going, sports and all.Posted January 25, 2013 12:12 pm
I always thought the reason for bringing back the weigh in to the day before the fight was to stop fighters going into the ring dehydrated, which greatly increases the chance of brain injury.Posted January 25, 2013 12:06 pm