Squared-Circle (a.k.a. LionKing)Yes, you did mention many of those same things; I just wanted to expand on them a little. I’m glad to hear that I was able to help brighten your dark day. Good points about the champs in nine divisions coming from the U.S. and Donaire actually being an American citizen. He was born in the Philippines, but has lived in California since he was like 11. I am familar with boxing.com, but haven’t tried to post in their comment sections. Strange how you got shut out like that. I actually tried to reply hours ago, but the administrators on this thread have been giving me a hard time for some reason. And I’ve never had that problem on ESB. Posted February 23, 2013 1:52 amSquared-Circle (a.k.a. LionKing)Yes, you did mention many of the same things, I just wanted to expand on them a little more; hope you didn’t mind too much. I’m glad to hear that I was able to brighten your dark day a bit just by responding to your post. One thing I’ve learned after 5-6 years of reading artices on ESB and positng in the comment sections, is that many of more the objective, intelligent posts get ignored. Nobody ever accused boxers of being the sharpest tools in the shed and many boxing fans fall into the same category. I’ve come across some really bright posters in these threads who have a deep understanding of the sport, but they often get drowned out by droves of knuckleheads who thrive on rhetorical combat. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not above the insults. If someone attacks me or my opinions on a personal level, I’ll fire right back at them and do my best to destroy their crediblity and reputation. I’ll use my creativity and intellect to embarrass them in ways they’ve never heard before — and thoroughly enjoy every minute of it. If you want to get more responses on ESB, try directly attacking someone’s opinions you disagree with; if that doesn’t work, include some personal insults. I am familiar with boxing.com, but haven’t spent much time in their comment sections. If you haven’t yet noticed, there’s a whole lot of smack-talking on ESB and personal rivalries that have been blazing for years. I know it sounds ridiculous, but it’s true. Now I’m off to watch the Peterson vs. Holt fight. Later on, man. Posted February 22, 2013 10:26 pmnicolasI thought I said many of the things that you said, but I want to really let you know how grateful I am that you responded. Often I feel that what I write I’m just blowing air in the wind. I have had a very difficult day today, but you by responding have helped make my day a little better. Interesting point on your other thread. It is ironic that the US would be considered to have the top fighters possibly in nine divisions. People who look at Nonito Donaire as from the Philippines, forget that he fought in the US amateur program. Back in the early 70′s only top American fighters were in the heavyweight and light heavyweight division. You are very correct though, that a lot of Americans could not find a gym to learn the trade of boxing. By the way, do you also respond on Boxing,com? I have recently apparently been shut out. I think that they feel that there is some spam being attached to my responses there. Posted February 22, 2013 4:23 amSquared-Circle (a.k.a. LionKing)Continued: Few American kids these days grow up dreaming of becoming pro boxers, and many of our amateur programs have fallen into disarray. Shoot… kids can’t even find boxing on TV anymore unless their parents shell out money for premium cable channels and PPV. Most kids would be hard-pressed to find a boxing gym near their home, even if they are interested. Those who are lucky enough to live near gyms are often in urban, historic neighborhoods and even many of those gyms have become dilapidated. This problem is directly reflected in our amateur programs that are struggling to produce quality competitors for the U.S. Olympic Team. Meanwhile, countless kids throughout Eastern Europe, Mexico, Puerto Rico, Cuba and parts of Latin America are dreaming about becoming world champion boxers and training hard everyday. And the amateur programs in some of these countries are so deep with quality trainers & talent, that when their top fighters finally turn pro… they often outright embarrass inexperienced Americans. The explosion of the UFC has only exponentiated this problem, as there are now way more American kids who’d rather become pro MMA fighters than pro boxers. MMA gyms are now considerably more commonplace than boxing gyms, and the very best MMA fighters in the world come from Brazil and America. But the Eastern Euros have also been producing strong MMA fighters and seem to be making up ground – especially in Bellator. With the exception of Floyd Mayweather Jr., thank God for the deeply rooted Mexican-American and Puerto Rican-American boxing traditions that have done much to keep the sport alive and well. Most talent is at the lower weight-classes, but they’re still producing American pros on the global stage, battling for the titles. Posted February 21, 2013 9:06 pmMontero@SVDC – It’s all about how you want to see it. In my opinion, bouts like Fury-Chisora and Scott-Glazkov haven’t been happening the past few years. Look at some recent Klitschko opponents (Charr, Wach); they hadn’t faced the level of opposition that guys like Price, Fury and Jennings have been. Hell even Mitchell did more just by facing Banks! So my argument is that while things aren’t perfect, they ARE getting better… Adamek was due to face Pulev in the IBF eliminator, not Solis (whose promotional issues are destroying his career). He passed on Pulev for a bigger payday in his native Poland; can’t blame him for that at this point in his career. My hunch is that he fights once more this year in Poland and then goes for Arreola next year. From a business perspective it’s a very marketable rematch that would sell tickets in the LA area and would do a nice rating on HBO. For Arreola, it’s a chance to avenge one of his losses, make some money, and gain momentum en route to unification with the champ. For Adamek, it’s one last payday and one last title opportunity before riding off into the sunset. He knows he’s fading. Posted February 20, 2013 12:58 pmRuffknightOK Whiteboyday, no problem. Boxing has gone downhill pretty far but that’s “progress”. Posted February 20, 2013 8:47 amSVDC@Montero. I am not forgetting what you mentioned. Fury – Chisora was a fight at domestic level, and Scott-Glazkov isn’t erxactly top 10 material (maybe the winner can become one). And the others fighters you mention…as you write yourself they are talking about fighting eachother, but as of now have not done yet. And why did Adamek not fight Solis in the IBF eliminator as originally scheduled…as you say, because he (and probably Solis as well) hope to fight the winner of Stiverne-Arreola for the WBC belt rather then facing Wlad. Posted February 20, 2013 5:24 amwhiteboydayhey aficianado, i dont know a damn thing bout malik scott, why did u say he was negative? Just curious if the guy has done a bunch of dumb things or just been a douchebag or what Posted February 20, 2013 3:23 amhucksterwlad-pulev 2013!!! Posted February 20, 2013 3:10 amnicolasI think if you look at the heavuyweight division in the US you will notice several things. First, in the 30′s I think there was some concern that the heavyweight championship was going overseas even back then. First with Max Schmelling, and then with Carnera. I would suggest that had Max Baer not lost to James Bradock, and Baer-Schmelling fight would have taken place. While some would be right to pick Baer to win, virtually no one gave Bradock a chance, and rather than lose to Schmelling, from a country the US was having too good relations with, I think the feeling was, let a negro finally become heavyweight champion, at least the title witll stay in the US. Interestingly, except for Billy Conn, and not unitl Jersey Joe Walcott, the only guys who had caused some headache for Louis were foreigners. First of course Max Schmelling, next Tommy Farr, who went 15 rounds with some complaining he should have got the title, and Arturo Godoy of Chile in their first fight, a split decision. Later except for Marciano, all world champs from the US were black. After Floyd Patterson, not that the black champions were originally from what was once the Confederacy, Arkansas, Louisville, South Carolina and Texas. For other African Americans in other parts of the nation, their were some better opportunities in sports than boxing. WWII while devastating to both sides of the Atlantic, was perhaps more so in Europe, with deaths of men who might have been king. Also greater opportunities came to those Europeans, boxing in Germany for example appeared pretty much dead in the late 70′s and early 80′s. Ali influenced a lot of African Americans to be fighters in the rest of the country, so from Holmes to Bowe, But after, Bowe, and better sports opportunities for African Americans in the south, and a greater acceptance, plus the entrance of heavyweights from the area that was once the Soviet Union, has I think made the difference. Perhaps had network television shown more heavy weight title fights, Tyson would have influenced others, but HBO and Showtime I feel limited that audience. Posted February 20, 2013 12:48 amMonteroSquared-Circle – Agreed. I think a sport like football is much easier than boxing with more opportunities for “decent” athletes to find success (just think of the hundreds of colleges with scholarships)… I think people will come around to the Klitschko brothers years after they’re retired. I also believe that Wlad will be regarded as a top 10 ATG; especially once he reigns over the division alone after his brother retires. The Klitschko documentary was great. Posted February 19, 2013 11:22 pmwhiteboydayRuffnight, earlier I had u pegged as a retarded monkey, I apologize.Yeah all the divisions that have ten different champs bothers me too but alot of that is the evil promoters not getting fights made that should be mandatory. I guess we will stay in disagreement with the HW division. Just because there are more of them doesnt mean much to me if they all suck. Maybe Im crazy or too biased but when I watch older hw fights they seem much more talented and on a higher level all around. Posted February 19, 2013 11:19 pmSquared-Circle (a.k.a. LionKing)Montero: Yes, that’s a great point and I definitely agree with you. I’m an American and really want to see our HWs become competive again on the world stage, but I’m sick and tired of all the lame excuse making. We could get into a big discussion about the reasons behind the decline of HW boxing in the U.S. and the rise of it in Eastern Europe, but am not sure if anyone wants to explore that on this thread. Max Kellerman says that all the American HW talent is playing football in the NFL, and that we’d have to start pulling kids off the field and putting them in boxing gyms at 12-13 yrs old in order to identitfy, train and produce world champions. I have mixed thoughts on this issue, but one thing is for sure: most of the BIG money in the U.S. is in pro football, baseball, basketball and hockey, and very few HW boxers actually become world champions. This is why the simultaneous reign of the K bros has been so very special. We as true boxing fans should celebrate and enjoy it because this will NEVER happen again. It’s really a beatiful story about the strength of family and if you haven’t yet seen the 2012 HBO documentary “Klitschko” I highly recemmend it to all on ESB. Peace Posted February 19, 2013 11:00 pmFight AficionadoVyacheslav Glazkov finally rids us of Malik Scott, the most boring and negative American heavyweight since Ruiz. Hopefully by KTFO. Posted February 19, 2013 8:57 pmRuffknightHey whiteboyday I was saying that the heavyweight division shouldn’t be singled out as the only weak weight division. Look at the others and why don’t the champs compete against each other to combine the titles so we don’t have 4 of them in each weight class. Also I disagree about these guys of today not being able to make it in another era because there are many more fighters now and therefore more competition. Look at some of the heavy contenders of the past eras and they’d be nowhere near the top ten today, understand whiteboyday(Whatever that name is suppose to mean?) Posted February 19, 2013 8:09 pmMontero@Squared-Circle – I don’t think anyone denies that Eastern Europeans are running things in the heavier divisions these days. But it’s better for the sport when we have quality American HWs in the mix, bottom line. If guys like Jennings, Wilder and Mitchell can develop into legitimate contenders and end up facing guys like Price, Fury, Pulev, etc over the coming years, it sets up great nationalistic rivalries that cause excitement for the fans. If Chris Arreola becomes a titlist, it could lead to a unification bout with the champ on HBO/Showtime in the United States. All good things for the division on the global level. Posted February 19, 2013 7:26 pmboxing fanWladimir’s constant clinching and pushing wouldn’t have worked in the States. This way he was able to protect his weak chin with the help of the refs. His style is already as boring as it gets and the clinching makes it unbearable to watch. In fact I haven’t watched none of his fights live in several years if there was other fights in the same night. Posted February 19, 2013 7:21 pmMontero@Mark – I won’t get into all the details here, but Wlad “stalling” has more to do with the financials, network date and ultimately protecting himself more than anything else. He’d rather the bout go to purse bid because that way he’ll end up paying less to Povetkin. And he’s been ducked by the Russian in the past, he’s protecting himself by taking a tune up now. He doesn’t want to get left waiting and end up wasting his time again. Posted February 19, 2013 7:18 pmMontero@Anonymous – both Klitschko brothers reached out to Valuev’s team several times over the years to be turned down. In fact, Wlad wanted Valuev after Daid Haye bailed on their first signed fight. Valuev tuned down the contract, so he went with Chagaev instead… Posted February 19, 2013 7:12 pmMarkUnbiased Dane@ It’s Wladimir who doesn’t want to face Povetkin. It’s a mandatory and HE asked for a delay. Posted February 19, 2013 7:00 pmSquared-Circle (a.k.a. LionKing)Heavyweight boxing is only dead in the minds of self-centered Americans who likely don’t have a passport and haven’t experiened international travel. Truth is that the U.S. can’t produce legitimate HW contenders to compete with the Klitschko Kings for their titles. But when you open your mind for a minute ahd look outside the box, it’s plain to see that HW boxing has never been more alive in Europe and throughout the rest of the world. What are you haters going to say when the Europeans are still dominated the HW division years, maybe even decades, after the K bros are retired? Are you still going to fall back on that same old B.S. line that HW boxing is dead? Better start dreaming up some new excuses, my brothas. Posted February 19, 2013 6:09 pmwhiteboydayThe heavyweight division has been weak as hell because theres only two good fighters.The lack of competition is why its weak, and anyone who really knows boxing knows that most these heavyweights really are garbage, its not just because the K’s are so good. Most wouldnt of even made it in a different era facing consistantly better talent. Before som of you guys poo yourself Im not sayin anything bad bout the K’s, I know they would give any of the greats a hard time but the rest are bums wich equals weak division. Do you understand now Ruffnight Posted February 19, 2013 5:38 pmUnbiased DaneMark : So ducking the champion twice doesnt mean for you that Povetkin has ruled him self out ? There isnt eny guarantee that Povetkin will not duck him again and then Wlad is in risk of wasting more time on this fool. Posted February 19, 2013 5:37 pmMarkUnbiased Dane@ yup, we should start ignoring Wlad who doesn’t want to fight Povetkin. Posted February 19, 2013 5:23 pmUnbiased DaneWhy is it this era should have been weaker than others, oh of course its just a way those who are nationalist biased, and who is butthurt by the Klitschko´s domination to downtalk the Klitschko´s greatnes. DempseyYou can’t just assume the next era will be stronger. Their have been multiple prospects that the Klitschko brothers beat down that would be considered a big prospect now too. Wlad easily handled Haye. And i think most people would agree that Haye would beat most of these “top young contenders” now. Posted February 19, 2013 2:48 pmAnonymousThe same note continues among the Klitschko-tards..1)the opponents are too weak, 2)they are all afraid of the Klitschkos, 3)they are strong until they face the Klitschkos etc.etc.. 1)they fought cruiserweights instead of Nikolai Valuev. Anonymousthe days when all top ten contenders were dangerous are over, now there’s only two maybe three real contenders per division, fighters are no longer hungry and in top physical condition, ready to go the distance if necessary,,,, especially hvwts, the only hvwts in fighting condition other than the K’s are cruisers that have moved up…hope these up and comers can bring life to the division by being more disciplined. Posted February 19, 2013 1:52 pmE in DenverThe K-Bros retirement actually weakens the division. But there will be parity which is something the divisions hasn’t had for almost a decade. The constant mismatches in the sport don’t make for entertaining fights. Not to mention Wlad takes 6 rounds to throw a cross. It isn’t the K-Bros fault that they are bigger, better, smarter than their contemporaries. But in Wlad’s case, could demonstrate his dominance by putting his over-matched opponents out of their misery quicker. Posted February 19, 2013 1:44 pmRuffknightI don’t see where all of the other divisions are all that strong really. The Heavyweight division is the only one with just two real champs with the wbc, wba, ibf and ,,wbo. Plus there would only be one if the titleists weren’t brothers most likely. I’m not including Povetkin (Is he still around as a sub-champ?) Sorry I think of all the rest Garcia has two. Johnny FastWlad couldn’t rule over a stronger division, period. Both of the brothers are fortunate their era is probably the weakest in history. Hopefully a new era can bring back the days of old when a heavyweight fight was something most all sports fans would look forward to, they were real events that drew large crowds the world over. Posted February 19, 2013 1:21 pmMontero@K-2 Fan – I never said that. The past few years have undoubtedly been weak, but the Klitschkos having cleaned out the division was only part of the problem. The top contenders ducked (Povetkin, Valuev) or stalled and/or didn’t come to win (Haye). Also, there was a lack of quality prospects… Things are getting stronger now and it just so happens to coincide with Vitali’s retirement; simply a matter of timing. Posted February 19, 2013 1:20 pmIt’s Me, ErnieMax has the beat… Posted February 19, 2013 1:17 pmMontero@UD – actually I was talking about when Vitali retires at the end of this year. Wladimir will be around for a few more years at least (reigning over what I think will be a much stronger era). Posted February 19, 2013 1:11 pmMontero@SVDC – you forget that we recently saw Tyson Fury fight Dereck Chisora, and now we have Scott-Glazkov this weekend. Jennings and Wilder have talked about fighting; as have Price and Fury. The guys who’ve been positioning for the WBC recently are Arreola, Stiverne and Adamek (who will probably try to rematch Arreola if he gets the full title). Posted February 19, 2013 12:57 pmMontero@Borten – hahaha! You got me on the typo… That’s what happens when you submit an article at 1AM, should’ve woke up and done a quick second proof read this morning before sending. Posted February 19, 2013 12:53 pmCarl the CrackerThe Division is weak because two crackers own the Division. Let them retire and then influx the division with all black fighters and it will be strong again……..Yeah, right,…………………..NOT !!!! Wankers, seekers, get a clue, K-Bros are bad ass and everybody knows it. They have kicked ALL ass. Posted February 19, 2013 12:48 pmK- 2 FanLet me get this straight ; according to the writer and some comentators , the division is Mick the MarmalizerScotland’s Gary Cornish could make a few waves if his management ever let him fight outside of the UK! Posted February 19, 2013 11:55 amNeil(pomy)The author says: “One could argue that the years following Lennox Lewis’ retirement were an average era, with quality fighters like Chris Byrd, Lamon Brewster, Hasim Rahman, Andrew Golota” …… well apart from Chris Byrd, that is a terribly poor list of contenders. The recent heavyweight era has been poor except for the two K-brothers who are extremely good. The division is looking up though as we have a good group of decent, young and promising contenders. It has been long over-due. Posted February 19, 2013 10:28 amknowallThere some guys up and coming and should be good. Its not all down to guys avoiding the k bros. If wlad or vitali wanted better opposition they could get it. Posted February 19, 2013 10:00 amMaxKlitschkos are merely businessmen and they are the most boring heavyweights of all time. Posted February 19, 2013 9:15 amUDHow funny, the author predict that just when the Klitschko´s has both retired the division would be strong again :-D Posted February 19, 2013 9:07 amSVDCFinally some real prospects… who are mainly unwilling to fight eachother and who seem to be mainly waiting for Vitali to retire and go after the WBC rather then fight Wlad. That’s at least the impression I have. Pulev seems to be the exeption Posted February 19, 2013 8:39 amBortenThe amount of spelling errors on this site is getting ridiculous. “an empathic win over Thompson”? A lovely thought though I doubt Price has much room for empathy in the boxing ring. Surely an emphatic win would make more of a statement. Posted February 19, 2013 6:27 am |
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A Period of Transition in the Heavyweight Division