Mafia involvement in Boxing

[la-califa]

In the early days of Boxing there was heavy Mafia involvement in the sport. Which fighters were hurt most or benifited the most from this?

[mr. magoo]

1930's -1940's

Fighters who benefitted - Galento, Simon, Carnera, Nova, etc.

Fighters who didn't - Elmer Ray, Turkey Thompson, Lee Q Murray, Lem Franklin, Jimmy Bivens....


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[mcvey]

In the early days of Boxing there was heavy Mafia involvement in the sport. Which fighters were hurt most or benifited the most from this?
Primo Carnera
Gus Dorazio
Tony Galento
Ike Williams
Jimmy Carter
Don Jordan
Billy Fox
Bud Gorman
Babe Risko
Beau Jack
Virgil Akins
Johnny Saxton
Kid Gavilan
Carmen Basilio
Joe Brown
Sonny Liston

[Chinxkid]

Graziano did well. LaMotta and Robinson were hurt.

[round15]

Sonny Liston, nuff said

[Chinxkid]

Sonny Liston, nuff said

Ain't that the truth.

[Dempsey1238]

Primo Carnera
Gus Dorazio
Tony Galento
Ike Williams
Jimmy Carter
Don Jordan
Billy Fox
Bud Gorman
Babe Risko
Beau Jack
Virgil Akins
Johnny Saxton
Kid Gavilan
Carmen Basilio
Joe Brown
Sonny Liston

Didnt Carmen Basilio have to fight the mob???

[Dempsey1238]

Graziano did well. LaMotta and Robinson were hurt.

Not sure Robinson was hurt, I mean the guy won the world Welter title in his early 20's or so. He was not being held back or anything.

[Dempsey1238]

Graziano did well. LaMotta and Robinson were hurt.

Not sure Robinson was hurt, I mean the guy won the world Welter title in his early 20's or so. He was not being held back or anything.

[Chinxkid]

Took him a while to get the MW shot.

I mean what's the real answer to this question? In the years just after WWII all upper rung fighters were effected by this. If you weren't so great, like Graziano, yeah you got more than your share early on, but I don't think it's unsafe to assume that affable Rocky didn't pay some heavy dues for that. If you were a better fighter than him, as I do believe a lot of his contemporaries were, and had too much pride to boot, you were held back. The only fighters that weren't effected were the ones that weren't in that league in the first place, especially on the East Coast. I knew a fighter who was offered 50k to go in the tank with Graziano and turned it down. This was in the late 40's. Fifty grand in the late 40's! That was a helluva lot of money then, at a time when you could buy one or two or three pretty nice houses for that much. What? Like a million or more today?

[Dempsey1238]

Took him a while because he was busy cleaning out the welterweights, also I belive Jake was in no rush in fighting Robinson, It was not the mob that held Robinson back.

[Chinxkid]

That's not the way I remember hearing it, but I could be wrong. Maybe someone will ring in and break the tie. Also, Jake by that time was involved with the boys, right? So his not being in any hurry could have been partly due to orders from above.

[Bummy Davis]

Muhamad Ali not only had the black muslims, he was very heavily hooked into Angelo's brother Chris Dundee who had strong links to Santo Traficante in Florida and Carlos Marcella in New Orleans. That may be the reason Sonny took 10 + Sonny had to know because he was close to Carbo and the Dundee's did the right thing with the Boys....Funny you never hear this but most inside guys know this

[mcvey]

Not sure Robinson was hurt, I mean the guy won the world Welter title in his early 20's or so. He was not being held back or anything.
Robinson refused to dive in a fight ,and took a European tour instead,he carried a few fighters,to ensure certain folks got bets paid.

[la-califa]

Did Louis' Manager have connections? Is that how Louis got his shot? or from public pressure? What about Marciano? Was there ever Mafia pressure put on him?

[Russell]

Also, Basilio gave the entire mob a big fan collective go fuck yourself, just to let that be known.

[OLD FOGEY]

In the early days of Boxing there was heavy Mafia involvement in the sport. Which fighters were hurt most or benifited the most from this?

Boxing was controlled by powerful promoters like Mike Jacobs and the IBC. How much the mafia called the tune or fixed fights is not clear, but it did happen.

Hurt:
Harry Matthews--there was actually a congressional inquiry into why he was frozen out of a title fight.
Billy Graham

Helped:
Primo Carnera (though perhaps not to the extent the sensationalized fiction would have it)
Billy Fox
Hurricane Jackson (there were plenty of rumours his fights were not on the level)
Kid Gavilan

A large number of top black fighters were frozen out but it is not clear if this was due to Mafia manipulation or the racism of the time. Certainly some outstanding black fighters got to and stayed on the top.

[heehoo]

Did Louis' Manager have connections? Is that how Louis got his shot? or from public pressure? What about Marciano? Was there ever Mafia pressure put on him?

There was in fact, a Mafia guy went up to him and asked to carry a guy. Maricano literally kicked that guy out of his dressing room and told him in no uncertain terms to go fuck himself, at least from what I understood.

[OLD FOGEY]

There was in fact, a Mafia guy went up to him and asked to carry a guy. Maricano literally kicked that guy out of his dressing room and told him in no uncertain terms to go fuck himself, at least from what I understood.

The Mafia guys tended to be boxing fans, though, so fixing major fights may not have been as common as believed, and they tended to admire the top fighters. Robinson apparently agreed a number of times to carry a fight to a decision on orders. In one of those bouts there was a hot exchange and Robinson instinctively let go a combination that sent his opponent down for the count. Robby was shitting bricks about being taken for a ride, but the Mafia guy just told him "Forget it, Ray. Those things happen."

[Russell]

In one of those bouts there was a hot exchange and Robinson instinctively let go a combination that sent his opponent down for the count. Robby was shitting bricks about being taken for a ride, but the Mafia guy just told him "Forget it, Ray. Those things happen."

Heard about that too. Always makes me laugh. :happy:lol:

[mcvey]

Boxing was controlled by powerful promoters like Mike Jacobs and the IBC. How much the mafia called the tune or fixed fights is not clear, but it did happen.

Hurt:
Harry Matthews--there was actually a congressional inquiry into why he was frozen out of a title fight.
Billy Graham

Helped:
Primo Carnera (though perhaps not to the extent the sensationalized fiction would have it)
Billy Fox
Hurricane Jackson (there were plenty of rumours his fights were not on the level)
Kid Gavilan

A large number of top black fighters were frozen out but it is not clear if this was due to Mafia manipulation or the racism of the time. Certainly some outstanding black fighters got to and stayed on the top.
Jack Hurley ,Mathews manager was offered a LH title shot but declined it.He wanted a fight with Marciano ,and the bigger purse that went with it ,Hurley was a shrewd old bird ,and knew the reality of Mathews abilities ,he built him up skillfully ,referring to him as "The Athlete".Marciano exposed Mathews for the built up hype that he was.The head of the IBC was James Norris the multi millionaire ,but his matchmaking went for approval to Frankie Carbo before it was finalized.Carbo had various stooges as managers of fighters ,including,HymieWallman,Wiile Ketchum,Al Weill,Joe Barone etc ,but they all paid a % to Carbo .Ray Arcel refused to have Carbo monopolize his options as a manager and was given a lead pipe beating as a result.Another Champ who came indirectly under Carbo's thumb was Joey Giardello.The story that Marciano was told to carry a fighter is incorrect ,he was asked to take a dive ,with the assurance that the return would be with the cuffs off,he went
into a rage at the proposition ,shouting "get out of my sight ,you of my race,I can't believe you could ask me to do that,apparently the Mob thought about this and concluded that Rocky was excused any reprisal .

[OLD FOGEY]

Jack Hurley ,Mathews manager was offered a LH title shot but declined it.He wanted a fight with Marciano ,and the bigger purse that went with it ,Hurley was a shrewd old bird ,and knew the reality of Mathews abilities ,he built him up skillfully ,referring to him as "The Athlete".Marciano exposed Mathews for the built up hype that he was.The head of the IBC was James Norris the multi millionaire ,but his matchmaking went for approval to Frankie Carbo before it was finalized.Carbo had various stooges as managers of fighters ,including,HymieWallman,Wiile Ketchum,Al Weill,Joe Barone etc ,but they all paid a % to Carbo .Ray Arcel refused to have Carbo monopolize his options as a manager and was given a lead pipe beating as a result.Another Champ who came indirectly under Carbo's thumb was Joey Giardello.The story that Marciano was told to carry a fighter is incorrect ,he was asked to take a dive ,with the assurance that the return would be with the cuffs off,he went
into a rage at the proposition ,shouting "get out of my sight ,you of my race,I can't believe you could ask me to do that,apparently the Mob thought about this and concluded that Rocky was excused any reprisal .

You are giving the IBC spin on Matthews. Matthews defeated Murphy in a one-sided bout but Murphy was then given the shot at Maxim. The Ring Magazine rated Matthews the best p4p fighter in the world in their Feb, 1952 issue. When Matthews upset Layne to become a heavyweight threat, the IBC offered a fight with Maxim, but Hurley opted to go after Marciano. He thought Matthews could outbox Marciano and then take the aging Walcott. Bill Gallo mentioned on ESPN that many insiders agreed with Hurley that Matthews could indeed take Marciano. Matthews was knocked out by Marciano, but then again so was everyone else.

My take on Matthews is that after the age of 18 he was beaten only by Marciano and top five fighters Chase, Booker, and Cockell. He may also have been slipping by the time of the Cockell fights, the first two of which were razor tight. Matthews retired with a bad back in the third.
All in all, probably an underrated fighter.

[Bummy Davis]

I agree with OLD Fogey that a lot of the Mob fixing fights are overated. A lot of it had to do with getting the OK to get a title shot. Everyone knew Jake Lamotta deserved one but they got him to drop one to Billy Fox....JJWalcott had some connections but he fought on the level using his skills and connections to fight for the title but it did not help him get the decision.

[Flyin Ryan]

Does Don King count as "mafia involvement"? :D

[Bummy Davis]

Does Don King count as "mafia involvement"? :D

He did control most of the Alphabet groups and was caught fixing the ring ratings by paying off John Ort. It was not the Italian mob but it was Organized Crime

[mcvey]

You are giving the IBC spin on Matthews. Matthews defeated Murphy in a one-sided bout but Murphy was then given the shot at Maxim. The Ring Magazine rated Matthews the best p4p fighter in the world in their Feb, 1952 issue. When Matthews upset Layne to become a heavyweight threat, the IBC offered a fight with Maxim, but Hurley opted to go after Marciano. He thought Matthews could outbox Marciano and then take the aging Walcott. Bill Gallo mentioned on ESPN that many insiders agreed with Hurley that Matthews could indeed take Marciano. Matthews was knocked out by Marciano, but then again so was everyone else.

My take on Matthews is that after the age of 18 he was beaten only by Marciano and top five fighters Chase, Booker, and Cockell. He may also have been slipping by the time of the Cockell fights, the first two of which were razor tight. Matthews retired with a bad back in the third.
All in all, probably an underrated fighter.
I'm giving what I have read from various sources, I have no axe to grind ,re Mathews.I don't think Hurley really thought Mathews had much of a chance against Marciano.

[OLD FOGEY]

I'm giving what I have read from various sources, I have no axe to grind ,re Mathews.I don't think Hurley really thought Mathews had much of a chance against Marciano.

Why was Hurley so disappointed in Matthews for losing then?

I think Hurley saw himself as the manager of the next heavyweight champion.

[mcvey]

You are giving the IBC spin on Matthews. Matthews defeated Murphy in a one-sided bout but Murphy was then given the shot at Maxim. The Ring Magazine rated Matthews the best p4p fighter in the world in their Feb, 1952 issue. When Matthews upset Layne to become a heavyweight threat, the IBC offered a fight with Maxim, but Hurley opted to go after Marciano. He thought Matthews could outbox Marciano and then take the aging Walcott. Bill Gallo mentioned on ESPN that many insiders agreed with Hurley that Matthews could indeed take Marciano. Matthews was knocked out by Marciano, but then again so was everyone else.

My take on Matthews is that after the age of 18 he was beaten only by Marciano and top five fighters Chase, Booker, and Cockell. He may also have been slipping by the time of the Cockell fights, the first two of which were razor tight. Matthews retired with a bad back in the third.
All in all, probably an underrated fighter.
This was a Rex Layne who had been kod by Charles and brutally by Marciano ,he would gain a debatable dec against Charles ,then lose to him again ,he was definitely on the slide, by the time he fought Mathews.

[mcvey]

Why was Hurley so disappointed in Matthews for losing then?

I think Hurley saw himself as the manager of the next heavyweight champion.
If Hurley thought Mathews was that good, why didnt he take the LH shot against Maxim? Surely as a LH Champ he would have commanded a bigger purse against heavyweight challenger Marciano?

[OLD FOGEY]

If Hurley thought Mathews was that good, why didnt he take the LH shot against Maxim? Surely as a LH Champ he would have commanded a bigger purse against heavyweight challenger Marciano?

My guess is that he felt Matthews would beat Marciano and then go on to fight Walcott. The problem with fighting Maxim is that Joey always hung close with everyone and Hurley might have had some doubts if Matthews would get a fair shake from the judges with the IBC having such control. Both Maxim and Matthews liked to box and counter. A fight between them might have been a strategic affair.

If Matthews fought Maxim, Marciano would have gone on to fight Walcott most likely, with Charles next in line. Hurley could not have known that Layne would upset Charles.

Hurley also claimed that Matthews was having trouble making the lightheavy limit and in fact he never fought as a lightheavy again after the Marciano bout.

Having seen both Maxim and Matthews against Murphy, I would rate Matthews at least even money against Maxim and possibly a slight favorite.

[OLD FOGEY]

This was a Rex Layne who had been kod by Charles and brutally by Marciano ,he would gain a debatable dec against Charles ,then lose to him again ,he was definitely on the slide, by the time he fought Mathews.

Fair enough, but Charles and Marciano were two of the top three heavyweights in the world, and I believe that Layne actually gave a rather strong performance in the first Charles fight before fading late and being knocked out.

[mcvey]

My guess is that he felt Matthews would beat Marciano and then go on to fight Walcott. The problem with fighting Maxim is that Joey always hung close with everyone and Hurley might have had some doubts if Matthews would get a fair shake from the judges with the IBC having such control. Both Maxim and Matthews liked to box and counter. A fight between them might have been a strategic affair.

If Matthews fought Maxim, Marciano would have gone on to fight Walcott most likely, with Charles next in line. Hurley could not have known that Layne would upset Charles.

Hurley also claimed that Matthews was having trouble making the lightheavy limit and in fact he never fought as a lightheavy again after the Marciano bout.

Having seen both Maxim and Matthews against Murphy, I would rate Matthews at least even money against Maxim and possibly a slight favorite.
I haven't seen the Mathews /Murphy fight ,have seen the Maxim Murphy one the story of which is left jab ,left jab,result big lumps around the eyes.I will take your word for the probable outcome as you have seen both fights ,though I think Maxim is a little underated ,due to his less than fan friendly style ,and lack of power ,in which Mathews surely had and edge. The chin goes to Maxim ,however .

[Schmapps]

Muhamad Ali not only had the black muslims, he was very heavily hooked into Angelo's brother Chris Dundee who had strong links to Santo Traficante in Florida and Carlos Marcella in New Orleans. That may be the reason Sonny took 10 + Sonny had to know because he was close to Carbo and the Dundee's did the right thing with the Boys....Funny you never hear this but most inside guys know this

Wow, really? I have never heard this before. Anyone else here heard about this before? Not that I'm doubtin you or anything Bummy just curious if anyone else has heard/can elaborate on this.

[Bummy Davis]

Wow, really? I have never heard this before. Anyone else here heard about this before? Not that I'm doubtin you or anything Bummy just curious if anyone else has heard/can elaborate on this.


I am not saying it in a negative way. The Dundee's had a lot of conections and that was the way you did business back then and now but the connections are different today

[Legend X]

Muhamad Ali not only had the black muslims, he was very heavily hooked into Angelo's brother Chris Dundee who had strong links to Santo Traficante in Florida and Carlos Marcella in New Orleans. That may be the reason Sonny took 10 + Sonny had to know because he was close to Carbo and the Dundee's did the right thing with the Boys....Funny you never hear this but most inside guys know this

This is true. Chris Dundee was actually given the IBC promotional franchise down in Miami, and the IBC and Madison Sq Garden was controlled by Frank Carbo and the New York mob.
The Dundees were part of the "monopoly" in boxing that the anti-racketeer campaigners were trying to break.

[Legend X]

This article covers Don King and his links to the mob :

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[frankenfrank]

Didnt Carmen Basilio have to fight the mob???

i watched d movie about it and d mere existance of this movie convinces me more that he was 1 of d benefitors than 1 of d victims .

[Bill1234]

i watched d movie about it and d mere existance of this movie convinces me more that he was 1 of d benefitors than 1 of d victims .

My understanding of it is that Carmen himself did not deal with the mob and hated them. But in order for Carmen to get the bigger fights his management needed to pay the mob some money behind the scenes. I don't think any of his fights were fixed.

[BUDW]

Something is wrong in todays boxing look at all the BS decisions

[Danmann]

Muhamad Ali not only had the black muslims, he was very heavily hooked into Angelo's brother Chris Dundee who had strong links to Santo Traficante in Florida and Carlos Marcella in New Orleans. That may be the reason Sonny took 10 + Sonny had to know because he was close to Carbo and the Dundee's did the right thing with the Boys....Funny you never hear this but most inside guys know this

Sonny Liston dived due to Nation of Islam pressure, not mob. Ali was on fast track cause he was Olympic Gold medal winner, and immediately a hit with media, not due to any connections Dundee had.