Ali v Holmes who has the better fundamentals?

[mcvey]

Given that the late Eddie Futch gave the nod to Larry as being the more technically proficient fighter of the two,who do you think had the better basics?

[Loewe]

I think Holmes was better in a traditional sense. Ali was as good as he was because he broke boxing laws. Larry was as good as he was because he perfected them.

[Bokaj]

I think Holmes was better in a traditional sense. Ali was as good as he was because he broke boxing laws. Larry was as good as he was because he perfected them.

I agree.

[Jbuz]

I think Holmes was better in a traditional sense. Ali was as good as he was because he broke boxing laws. Larry was as good as he was because he perfected them.

Agree to an extent. But I wouldn't say Holmes perfected them either. He quite often dropped his hands, much like Ali (though nowhere near as much), he was particularly bad at dropping his left after the jab. He also did pull back from punches on occasion.

I'd say someone like Joe Louis perfected the boxing "laws" that you speak off. Holmes did rely on physical talent and athleticism a lot too, just not to the extent of Ali. So in other words, Holmes had the better fundamentals, but he was nowhere near perfect.

[timmers612]

Larry had the better jab, the better right uppercut, but zero left hook. Often Ali more slapped with his left hook, but not always, you could have asked Bonnavena about that. Both had great footwork although considerably different. Aside from his early lean back defence, Ali could slip some and Holmes didn't but Larry's blocking and parrying were a step up from Ali's. If you compare the Ali of the Terrell fight with Holmes in his prime their fundamentals show to be about the same.

[JohnThomas1]

Holmes is far from flawless, but he might pip Ali fundamentally. Holmes didn't have Ali's great gifts (how many did have) and needed a bit better alliance with the orthodox.

[KCD]

Im a big believer that in Larry Holmes we have one of the most underated and overlooked heavyweight fighters in history.

I agree that his lack of left hook hurts him in a fundamental sense but i agree with most posters he was better than Ali in a traditional manner.

Just for the record does anyone give a prime Holmes a chance v a prime Ali?

[JohnThomas1]

Im a big believer that in Larry Holmes we have one of the most underated and overlooked heavyweight fighters in history.

I agree that his lack of left hook hurts him in a fundamental sense but i agree with most posters he was better than Ali in a traditional manner.

Just for the record does anyone give a prime Holmes a chance v a prime Ali?


I see Holmes losing a good one to absolute peak Ali. The post Exile Ali tho would have immense trouble.

[Stonehands89]

Holmes is far from flawless, but he might pip Ali fundamentally. Holmes didn't have Ali's great gifts (how many did have) and needed a bit better alliance with the orthodox.
Absolutely.

I see Holmes losing a good one to absolute peak Ali. The post Exile Ali tho would have immense trouble.
Absolutely.

[Arka]

First principles: the object of boxing is hit your opponent,without getting hit yourself.

To that extent ,boxing is a combination of physical attributes and a basic framework centred around judgement of time and distance, balance,discipline and leverage.

Holmes was superior to Ali ,in the sense that he had a fighting system,the framework of which would be less susceptible to corrosion by the decline of his speed and reflexes.

[AnthonyJ74]

Given that the late Eddie Futch gave the nod to Larry as being the more technically proficient fighter of the two,who do you think had the better basics?

Larry Holmes. Holmes boxed with more sound fundamentals; everything he did was more textbook perfect than what Ali did.

Ali's speed enabled him to get away with a lot. A slower, less-athletic fighter would have struggled much more with Ali's style of fighting.

I never liked how Ali never really punched to the body. Body punching is a very underrated aspect of boxing, and it is just as important as head shots. Holmes was much better to the body than Ali, and his arsenal was more complete - sans the left hook - which both guys never really developed.

[AnthonyJ74]

Im a big believer that in Larry Holmes we have one of the most underated and overlooked heavyweight fighters in history.

I agree that his lack of left hook hurts him in a fundamental sense but i agree with most posters he was better than Ali in a traditional manner.

Just for the record does anyone give a prime Holmes a chance v a prime Ali?

A chance? Yes! Holmes would have been a tough fight for a prime Ali, but Ali would have been a nightmare for Holmes.

Ali's speed and quickness would have enabled him to outbox Holmes I believe.

[AnthonyJ74]

Larry had the better jab, the better right uppercut, but zero left hook. Often Ali more slapped with his left hook, but not always, you could have asked Bonnavena about that. Both had great footwork although considerably different. Aside from his early lean back defence, Ali could slip some and Holmes didn't but Larry's blocking and parrying were a step up from Ali's. If you compare the Ali of the Terrell fight with Holmes in his prime their fundamentals show to be about the same.

Good analysis. To further muddy the waters, I would say that a guy like Riddick Bowe, speaking strictly fundamentally wise, was better than both Larry Holmes and Muhammad Ali. He had a better left hook than both Ali and Holmes combined, and his in-fighting was vastly superior.

Riddick Bowe was very solid in boxing fundamentals - ahead of both Holmes and Ali.

But, of course, that doesn't mean he'd beat either one of them!

[Arka]

Good analysis. To further muddy the waters, I would say that a guy like Riddick Bowe, speaking strictly fundamentally wise, was better than both Larry Holmes and Muhammad Ali. He had a better left hook than both Ali and Holmes combined, and his in-fighting was vastly superior.

Riddick Bowe was very solid in boxing fundamentals - ahead of both Holmes and Ali.

But, of course, that doesn't mean he'd beat either one of them!

What about his outside game? He was a big man after all.
Why sacrifice this physical advantage to fight on the inside?

[teeto]

Holmes imo, but both men held low hands, a technical 'flaw', although Holmes seemed to do moreso when out of range, Ali was just doing it all the time (in his prime), and getting away with it because of how good he was. Holmes just tops him technically for me.

[TommyV]

Holmes.

[Rubber Warrior]

Holmes. :good

[Mendoza]

Given that the late Eddie Futch gave the nod to Larry as being the more technically proficient fighter of the two,who do you think had the better basics?

Holmes by a good margin had better fundamentals.

[godking]

Good analysis. To further muddy the waters, I would say that a guy like Riddick Bowe, speaking strictly fundamentally wise, was better than both Larry Holmes and Muhammad Ali. He had a better left hook than both Ali and Holmes combined, and his in-fighting was vastly superior.

Riddick Bowe was very solid in boxing fundamentals - ahead of both Holmes and Ali.

But, of course, that doesn't mean he'd beat either one of them!Disagree both Holmes and Ali had vastly better defense then Bowe ever did . And could handle a jab much better then Bowe.

Bowe edges them in infighting but thats it.

[AnthonyJ74]

Disagree both Holmes and Ali had vastly better defense then Bowe ever did . And could handle a jab much better then Bowe.

Bowe edges them in infighting but thats it.

You don't think Bowe was a better body puncher? Better than Ali? Bowe's left hook was above Larry Holmes', and way above Ali's!

[prime]

Close, but, overall, I'd have to say Ali. Boxing fundamentals include posture, balance, hand positioning, proper punching form, footwork, slipping, parrying, counterpunching, timing development, judgment of distance, as well as mental preparation.

Holmes' approach to the fundamentals began with his apprenticeship under Ali himself, during which he learned the great importance of the jab, the foundation of his fighting-outside boxing style, tailored to his physical attributes and admiration for the Greatest. I would say the Easton Assassin added a meaner streak to his punching, thus deploying harder and more consistent hitting power.

When fundamentals are discussed, some might consider it anathema to mention Ali, but with him I believe there is more than meets the eye. Textbook fundamentals, of course Joe Louis. But there is a greater scope.

In my opinion, Ali was a genius in that he took the foundations of the sport and adapted them to his immense gifts to develop a uniquely effective and sheerly beautiful style. Holmes, as Ali's seed, and however great himself, never did anything of the like.

When I see Ali slipping a punch within fractions of an inch of disaster, using the ring to truly dance, so smoothly, so efficiently, to avoid bombs and set up counterblows on rushing foes, using the coverup on the ropes to tire opponents out, displaying astounding self-confidence, calm and control against killer monsters of the ring, as well as a one-of-a-kind jab and fluid combinations founded on split-second application of boxing physics, I see simply the Greatest heavyweight of all time.

Ali knew what he was doing just as securely as Bach, Michelangelo and da Vinci did.

[heehoo]

Larry Holmes sparred thousands of rounds with Ali and picked up more than a few tricks from him. He was better technically. Ali was able to be champion with his unique style (leaning back from punches, never throwing body shots, etc, etc) and was able to get away with it because he was so damn quick.

[heehoo]

Personally, I always thought that Holmes would have defeated Ali. He had just a slight edge over Ali in virtually every aspect of the game but speed.

I do feel Holmes had the better jab, which is saying something because Ali's jab is legendary as well.

[rusty nails]

ali didnt have any fundamentals.. he broke every rule in the book.. hands low, backing away from punches, dropping his hands after he punched, leaning forward when he jabbed, the list goes on and on.. it was his incredible reflexes and speed that kept him ahead of the rest..

[round15]

ali didnt have any fundamentals.. he broke every rule in the book.. hands low, backing away from punches, dropping his hands after he punched, leaning forward when he jabbed, the list goes on and on.. it was his incredible reflexes and speed that kept him ahead of the rest..

Agree with you here. I will say though that Ali had a pretty decent straight right hand when he wanted to throw it with conviction. Other than that, he relied on his speed and reflexes which overshadowed his lack of fundamental boxing. Larry had a better jab and threw hooks and uppercuts better than Ali. Why? Larry had slower feet and needed to position himself better to throw his punches which makes his focus on technical boxing that much greater than Ali.

[Chinxkid]

fundamentals ... schmundamentals

[godking]

You don't think Bowe was a better body puncher? Better than Ali? Bowe's left hook was above Larry Holmes', and way above Ali's!better body puncher then Ali yes but that is'nt saying much. And i give him the left hook as well.

Bowe overall was the better infighter this however is offset by his poor outside game for a big man inability to handle a jab horrible defense and average footwork .

[Jersey Joe]

Holmes easily. Ali, like Roy Jones Jr, relied on his speed to bail him out of several flaws in his technique. Holmes wasn't quick enough to do that, so had to learn those basics.

[ljj]

Holmes!

[RockyJim]

Bokaj has hit the nail right on the head...

[ThinBlack]

Holmes.Ali had decent ones at best, but Muhammad's athleticism was a notch above almost everybody, so he could afford to get away with murder many times.Larry had a tighter technical sense.

[Nay_Sayer]

Can someone address exactly why Holmes and Ali were deficient in the lefthook department?

[orriray59]

Holmes by quite a bit. Ali made a lot of technical mistakes in the first part of his career, but he could get away with them because of his amazing athletic ability.
Holmes didn't have the same lightning fast hand speed or the seemingly psychic ability to dodge and dance.

He had to make do with what he had.

[gentleman jim]

Let's not forget Ali's chin. His flaws sometimes got him into jams that his chin was able to overcome. If he only had a so so chin he might've lost a few more fights but he was blessed with one of the best chins in HW history.