BJ Penn vs. Rickson Gracie Prime for Prime

[chimba]

What an intriguing matchup. Id take Penn because I think Rickson will have problems taking him down and Ricksons standup is non existent.

[rydersonthestorm]

you mean now or prime, if now bj however he wants if you mean prime for prime it is ahrd to call.

[chimba]

you mean now or prime, if now bj however he wants if you mean prime for prime it is ahrd to call.

Even prime for prime...lets say that Ricksons prime was vale tudo Japan. Looking at him back then, his stand up was very crude with his chin sticking up. He had an incredible JJ no doubt but I really think that BJ can at least nullify that and keep it mostly standing

[rydersonthestorm]

Even prime for prime...lets say that Ricksons prime was vale tudo Japan. Looking at him back then, his stand up was very crude with his chin sticking up. He had an incredible JJ no doubt but I really think that BJ can at least nullify that and keep it mostly standing
iwould say his prime was maybe 5-10 years before that, i have no doubts that bj is light years ahead on his feet but if it goes to the ground rickson is the bigger and stronger guy and for once in bjs life he isn't the betetr ju jitsu guy, prime for prime it is ahrd to call if bj can keep it standing he wins big if rickson can take him down it is a hard fight to judge,

[Beebs]

BJ, Ground and Pound has evolved so much in the last decade; its become an art of its own, and BJ is very, very good. Add to that stand up striking and stand up grappling (takedowns/defense) and I don't see BJ losing.

[fatcity]

GSP vs BJ on Jan 31,superbowl weekend from Vegas.Go GSP>:thumbsup

[Cleveland_Steamer]

BJ, due to his striking being alot better than Rickson's.

[rekcutnevets]

Penn is one of my favorite fighters. I rank him higher than Rickson with my all time mma fighters, because he has accomplished more in what mma has become. MMA is a different contest now as opposed to that of Rickson. It is even different now than when Royce burst on the scene. Now; there are time limits, stand-ups, and round systems.

That being said, I see no way for Penn to win this fight. Rickson would not try to outbox Penn. Rickson would get this fight to a clinch, and go to the ground one way or another. Penn is better than most will ever be at Jiu Jitsu. Rickson Gracie is better at Jiu Jitsu than most will ever be at anything.

I'll concede that Rickson's game may not mean absolute victory against some of today's fighters under today's mma rules. Some opponents are going to be to good to be outpointed using Rickson's tactics in the ruled filled world of today's fighting. Penn is not big and strong enough to keep him off.

Rickson by submission.

[chimba]

Penn is one of my favorite fighters. I rank him higher than Rickson with my all time mma fighters, because he has accomplished more in what mma has become. MMA is a different contest now as opposed to that of Rickson. It is even different now than when Royce burst on the scene. Now; there are time limits, stand-ups, and round systems.

That being said, I see no way for Penn to win this fight. Rickson would not try to outbox Penn. Rickson would get this fight to a clinch, and go to the ground one way or another. Penn is better than most will ever be at Jiu Jitsu. Rickson Gracie is better at Jiu Jitsu than most will ever be at anything.

I'll concede that Rickson's game may not mean absolute victory against some of today's fighters under today's mma rules. Some opponents are going to be to good to be outpointed using Rickson's tactics in the ruled filled world of today's fighting. Penn is not big and strong enough to keep him off.

Rickson by submission.

I cant agree with that.. had Rickson fought a Bas or a Kerr at the time he would have been smashed. And kerr is a wrestler. Do you ever wonder why he fought in Japan against gusy who didnt know JJ?

Gracies JJ besides Roger are ordinary..Rickson is partly myth because Royce said in the press that his brother was 10 times better than him and this made Rickson God.. I can see BJ ending up on top of Rickson frankly...and when he does, hes got the best guard pass in the history of the sport.

Rickson fought one good fighter in MMA, Nakai..But had he fought the 2nd wave UFC guys like a Frye, Couture..hed get killed

[Nuke]

I cant agree with that.. had Rickson fought a Bas or a Kerr at the time he would have been smashed. And kerr is a wrestler. Do you ever wonder why he fought in Japan against gusy who didnt know JJ?

Gracies JJ besides Roger are ordinary..Rickson is partly myth because Royce said in the press that his brother was 10 times better than him and this made Rickson God.. I can see BJ ending up on top of Rickson frankly...and when he does, hes got the best guard pass in the history of the sport.

Rickson fought one good fighter in MMA, Nakai..But had he fought the 2nd wave UFC guys like a Frye, Couture..hed get killed



Totally agree, Rickson at his best isn't enough to beat BJ, don't forget BJ has fought bigger men and is not afraid to be the smaller man. I honestly don't see why people even consider Rickson an all-time great. A pioneer yes, all-time great argueable.

[chimba]

Totally agree, Rickson at his best isn't enough to beat BJ, don't forget BJ has fought bigger men and is not afraid to be the smaller man. I honestly don't see why people even consider Rickson an all-time great. A pioneer yes, all-time great argueable.

Its his 400-0 record. It was a myth propagated by Royce and the Japanese ate it up. How good was Royce JJ?? He got choked out by Wallid Ishmael in a BJJ comp in Brazil just months after dominating the first UFCs. So for him to exaggerate that Rickson is 10x better wasnt much of a step up when a farm boy wrestler Hughes made him look like a BJJ white belt in the way he passed his guard.

And Rickson is 180 at most, Im pretty sure he wont take BJ down.

Shit, I think Renzo has proven he had better JJ than Rickson..and BJ dominated him in BJs lost years.

[rekcutnevets]

Originally posted by chimba
I cant agree with that.. had Rickson fought a Bas or a Kerr at the time he would have been smashed. And kerr is a wrestler. Do you ever wonder why he fought in Japan against gusy who didnt know JJ?
Rickson would get smashed by Penn because you think Kerr could do it? How big do you think Penn is?

The organization that became Pride was created by the Japanese to search for a fighter to defeat Rickson Gracie. Mainly, a Japanese fighter. Jiu Jitsu is an art that originated in Japan. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu had become all the rage. If a Japanese fighter could defeat Rickson, Japan could reclaim superiority of their art.

Rickson proved himself the best in his country time and again. You may be able to question his accomplishments in mma encounters set under today's conditions. You cannot question his bjj achievments. Rickson bested anyone ever put in front of him in that regard.
“'I've never seen a Jiu-Jitsu like that in my life! I have trained with the toughest guys formed by Carlson Gracie. They were all great and I for sure don’t want to diminish anybody, but I have to say that no one ever did to me what Rickson Gracie has done during training these last days.” "I have no doubt that Rickson Gracie is the best ground fighter of all time. I bet on him against any athlete of today." - Paulo Filho, Undefeated MMA Champion and member of Brazilian Top Team.
That quote is about a 45+ year old Rickson Gracie.

[Beebs]

It would look like GSP Serra 2. Only time Rickson is on the ground is when hes on his put back eating elbows and punches if Penn chooses to put him there. Guys like Sherk and Hughes can barely if at all take Penn down, Ricksons takedowns were not that great.

[Sweet Pea]

Rickson is bigger and stronger than BJ, so I don't see any comparisons whatsoever between Serra and GSP. They had standup grappling just as well back in Rickson's time, that was the point of BJJ, to be able to fight all styles under any circumstances. BJ has the better standup for sure, but in a grappling sense even he's outclassed here by the bigger, stronger, better jiu jitsu expert. Would be interesting, but I'm not going to rule Rickson out unless we're talking someone like Fedor, who could easily nullify his skills with power and ferocity.

[québecwarrior]

Rickson is bigger and stronger than BJ, so I don't see any comparisons whatsoever between Serra and GSP. They had standup grappling just as well back in Rickson's time, that was the point of BJJ, to be able to fight all styles under any circumstances. BJ has the better standup for sure, but in a grappling sense even he's outclassed here by the bigger, stronger, better jiu jitsu expert. Would be interesting, but I'm not going to rule Rickson out unless we're talking someone like Fedor, who could easily nullify his skills with power and ferocity.
you mean with his sambo right?

[Sweet Pea]

you mean with his sambo right?I meant with his power and ferocity, as I said. Rickson would be much more likely to be able to get a fight into his preferred area against the smaller Penn than the bigger, stronger, more powerful striker Fedor. I don't favor Rickson over either, I just don't think a matchup between the bigger, stronger Rickson against another BJJ fighter(albeit a more well rounded one) in Penn favors Penn as much as everyone else.

[Beebs]

Rickson is bigger and stronger than BJ, so I don't see any comparisons whatsoever between Serra and GSP. They had standup grappling just as well back in Rickson's time, that was the point of BJJ, to be able to fight all styles under any circumstances. BJ has the better standup for sure, but in a grappling sense even he's outclassed here by the bigger, stronger, better jiu jitsu expert. Would be interesting, but I'm not going to rule Rickson out unless we're talking someone like Fedor, who could easily nullify his skills with power and ferocity.

GSP didn't get those hot knife through butter easy takedowns because he was bigger and stronger, he got them because of technique.

Penn's wrestling technique is almost as much better over Rickson as his striking is, which is to say its alot better. The guys who Rickson fought that could take him down were not particuarly advanced grapplers, and the advanced grapplers were not great at takedowns, Penn is both.

[El Puma]

GSP didn't get those hot knife through butter easy takedowns because he was bigger and stronger, he got them because of technique.

Penn's wrestling technique is almost as much better over Rickson as his striking is, which is to say its alot better. The guys who Rickson fought that could take him down were not particuarly advanced grapplers, and the advanced grapplers were not great at takedowns, Penn is both.:think So do you feel the size advantage would play a part? I have my doubts as Rickson would always come in top shape and BJ would be moving up in weight (I would assume) for this bout.

Rickson has been doing Gracie Jiu Jitsu since he was in the womb and as talented as BJ may be, I really dont feel this being more than an even match overall and grappling wise, Rickson is from many accounts extremely well versed in jiu jitsu.

[ufoalf]

I just hope no one is implying that Penn can survive against Rickson on the ground. Cause if you do, you should quit life.

[rekcutnevets]

Originally posted by ufoalf
I just hope no one is implying that Penn can survive against Rickson on the ground. Cause if you do, you should quit life.
I don't know if I would go as far as to say they should die, but I do agree with most of what you said.

Rickson would not fear having a smaller fighter like Penn in his guard. If Rickson could not successfully take Penn down with a single, double, or throw; he would pull guard. BJ Penn would not ground and pound Rickson Gracie. Penn's only chance would be to land the cleaner strikes, avoid submission, and somehow win a decision if the fight were using today's rules. I think Rickson would catch him, but I would not discount Penn entirely in such a setting.

If they were to fight without rounds or time limits, Rickson would definitely get Penn down. With no round endings or stand-ups to put the fighters back on their feet, Penn's fate would be the same as any other of Rickson's oppenents under such conditions.

[Beebs]

I just hope no one is implying that Penn can survive against Rickson on the ground. Cause if you do, you should quit life. ?

Maybe not in a gi grappling session starting from the knees.

Take off the gi, add elbows, things change quickly in Penns favor. Ground and pound today has advanced as much or more than any aspect of MMA in the last decade.

Size factor? Well Penn can look ok at 170, Rickson was about 185-187, it would play a factor, but a small one.

Penn would probably get the takedown if he wanted to, and could probably stop it if he wanted to.

[chimba]

I just hope no one is implying that Penn can survive against Rickson on the ground. Cause if you do, you should quit life.

He will more than survive Rickson on the ground...If BJ lands on top which likely he will...BJ will stay on top.

You guys need to understand.. BJJ has evolved by miles!!!, guys like Royler who is far more accomplished internationally than Rickson has been subbed by Bravo...Bravo!!!...subbed the most decorated Gracie in history!!

I believe Laimon (although he can be disrespectful sometimes) when he said that looking back now, he didnt see anything extraordinary with Rickson, nor with Royce, thats why he left... sure hes incredible at the basics, but he wasnt pushing the art forward.

Ricksons no Marcelo Garcia..Garcia is the real Rickson..lets not even compare its embarrasing...These guys Penn, Garcia, we are seing things that have never been done before..

Like Wanderlai Silva said..Rickson doesn't live in reality

[ufoalf]

No, Rickson manhandles BJ Penn on the ground. People gota forget this Hughes vs Royce, it doesn't fit this argument. I agree it has developed but Rickson has done BJJ all his life Gi and no-Gi. Rickson prime is years ahead of Vinny from TUF, I'll as far as saying BJ Penn wouldn't be able to handle confident Vinny on the ground.

[chimba]

Rickson has alot more to prove than fighting 2nd tier japanese fighters. I want to see videos of some of his 400 victories. I cannot for the life of me pick him over guys who we have seen make their mark on the cage with the toughest competition.

I cant base this on myths or hearsay. Can you imagine someone like Rickson in boxing...He'll get fuckin laughed at.

When Sakuraba was beating all the Gracies one by one...Rickson was still fighting. Why didnt he defend the families honor??

How come everytime someone calls him out like a Bas Rutten, he never accepts?

Again, I need to see him besides a video of him fighting Hugo Duarte on a beach somewhere in Brazil. The same Duarte that was KTFO by Tank Abbott.

Again, I am with Marc Laimon on this one...I want to see it..in a cage or the ring..and if hes not fighting anymore, I want to see videos of older fights.

Thats probabaly why Wanderalai tells him he's living in a dream.. He's probably talking shit about Wands game just liek he was talking shit about Fedor and how hed be an easy fight..lol

[sugarngold]

Rickson has alot more to prove than fighting 2nd tier japanese fighters. I want to see videos of some of his 400 victories. I cannot for the life of me pick him over guys who we have seen make their mark on the cage with the toughest competition.

I cant base this on myths or hearsay. Can you imagine someone like Rickson in boxing...He'll get fuckin laughed at.

When Sakuraba was beating all the Gracies one by one...Rickson was still fighting. Why didnt he defend the families honor??

How come everytime someone calls him out like a Bas Rutten, he never accepts?

Again, I need to see him besides a video of him fighting Hugo Duarte on a beach somewhere in Brazil. The same Duarte that was KTFO by Tank Abbott.

Again, I am with Marc Laimon on this one...I want to see it..in a cage or the ring..and if hes not fighting anymore, I want to see videos of older fights.

Thats probabaly why Wanderalai tells him he's living in a dream.. He's probably talking shit about Wands game just liek he was talking shit about Fedor and how hed be an easy fight..lol

Rickson vs Zulu.

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Rickson vs Rigan Machado - better jiujitsuan than anyone BJ Penn ever faced excluding Renzo.

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Rickson vs Masa Funaki who holds submission victories over Ken Shamrock and Bas Rutten.

91a6IrWep1U

Vawbp9eMu3E

You've started this thread just because you want to argue - but these are mythical match ups so it's ultimately a waste of time. You say you don't respect Rickson - so be it - but the man was unbeaten from the birthplace of mixed martial arts. Time and circumstance prevented him from competing further as he was nearing the end of his career when the rest of the world finally started to catch up.

And that bullshit you keep saying about BJ Penn "dominating" Renzo - is just that - bullshit. It was a close - utterly boring fight which was little more than jockeying for position and BJ Penn was able to get a slight advantage to secure a win.

Wanderlai is just jealous because Rickson choked out his mentors.

[Beebs]

And Wanderlei knocked out Ricksons students

[chimba]

Rickson vs Zulu.

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ZvfHvZW-EfM

Rickson vs Rigan Machado - better jiujitsuan than anyone BJ Penn ever faced excluding Renzo.

vZRcYJ-n07M

Rickson vs Masa Funaki who holds submission victories over Ken Shamrock and Bas Rutten.

91a6IrWep1U

Vawbp9eMu3E

You've started this thread just because you want to argue - but these are mythical match ups so it's ultimately a waste of time. You say you don't respect Rickson - so be it - but the man was unbeaten from the birthplace of mixed martial arts. Time and circumstance prevented him from competing further as he was nearing the end of his career when the rest of the world finally started to catch up.

And that bullshit you keep saying about BJ Penn "dominating" Renzo - is just that - bullshit. It was a close - utterly boring fight which was little more than jockeying for position and BJ Penn was able to get a slight advantage to secure a win.

Wanderlai is just jealous because Rickson choked out his mentors.

Are you serious with these videos?? :lol: gimme more we havent seen..400 victories..I want to see him in his prime

[chimba]

And Wanderlei knocked out Ricksons students

wouldnt be surprised...Me I have no problem with Rickson..I just want to see more...just like Ive seen the GSPs, Fedors, Silvas of the world..you know the ones who prove it time and time again against the best..not retired fighters like Funaki.

[chimba]

'Rickson if you think Vale-Tudo is at a low technical lthe evel nowadays why don't you came fight me on Pride? I challenge you to fight me for middleweight belt on December 31st'. This explosive statement was made last week in Japan by Pride Middleweight Champion Wanderlei Silva, after reading the last edition of Tatame Magazine that had Rickson Gracie on the cover. In the 7 page interview the Gracie family's head honcho summarized his career, telling for the first time about his Vale Tudo debut on the Rio de Janeiro streets and impressed the fans with controversial statements like: 'I´m cheering for Ricardo Arona in this Pride GP'. Rickson also promised to fight once or twice before retirement: 'I don't have any proposal right now but that's my plan. I really would like to do one or two fights before I stop', said the Gracie. But the most controversial part of the interview was undoubtfully when he said Minotauro's guard for Vale-Tudo is weak and also that he considers all Vale-Tudo fighters nowadays at a low technical level: 'Sometimes I'd rather see a beautiful K-1 fight than one of those bad Vale-Tudo fights', said Gracie in a statement that turned into the main subject of all brazilian fighters encounters in Tokyo in the days before Pride GP.

Considered the no1 rival of Rickson in Brazil during 80's, Marco Ruas (who came to Japan to support his students Pedro Rizzo) also complained about the part of the interview when Rickson told of day that he invaded Luta-Livre HQ to challenge Luta-Livre people. 'He said he challenged me and I asked four months to train. That was not true because I was 100% ready that day, but he said he was looking for Luta-Livre guys, not me. Everybody in Brazil always dreamed of seeing this fight. I think we finally could make it. We are about the same age. It would be a great pleasure for me to make a retirement fight against Rickson', said Ruas.

[ufoalf]

Listen, I don't even give in to the hype of Rickson Gracie. He talks a lot of smack. I always laugh at the mention of his record. But comparing BJ Penn's BJJ to Ricksons is laughable. Pretty much comparing BJ Penns' boxing to Sugar Ray.

[québecwarrior]

I meant with his power and ferocity, as I said. Rickson would be much more likely to be able to get a fight into his preferred area against the smaller Penn than the bigger, stronger, more powerful striker Fedor. I don't favor Rickson over either, I just don't think a matchup between the bigger, stronger Rickson against another BJJ fighter(albeit a more well rounded one) in Penn favors Penn as much as everyone else.
His power and ferocity would help, yes, but it would be clearly his sambo who would help him to kick Rickson's ass

[chimba]

His power and ferocity would help, yes, but it would be clearly his sambo who would help him to kick Rickson's ass


This is a joke right?? youre not seriously discussing Fedor vs. Rickson right??

Are you guys blind???, Jacare who if you ask anyone other than a Gracie is at least as good if not better than Rickson couldnt cut it against average opponents in MMA.. Are you guys serious???

Marcelo Garcia, the real Rickson...whos an innovator the greatest JJ practicioner ever p4p..has proven himself against the BEST!! captured in film..got KTFO against an average opponent.

[sugarngold]

This is a joke right?? youre not seriously discussing Fedor vs. Rickson right??

Are you guys blind???, Jacare who if you ask anyone other than a Gracie is at least as good if not better than Rickson couldnt cut it against average opponents in MMA.. Are you guys serious???

Marcelo Garcia, the real Rickson...whos an innovator the greatest JJ practicioner ever p4p..has proven himself against the BEST!! captured in film..got KTFO against an average opponent.

H A T E R A I D.

It's not just for dinner.

[chimba]

H A T E R A I D.

It's not just for dinner.

Im not hating on Rickson..Im hating (ifs thats the right word) on the fact that great, proven fighters that fought the best are being somewhat belittled and not given more creedence. When I feel that it should be the otherway around..like Rickson needs or needed to prove himself against a Sak (whos brain injured from taking all comers), Penn, GSP, Hendo, Anderson etc etc...Im talking MMA..not the mundials

[sugarngold]

Im not hating on Rickson..Im hating (ifs thats the right word) on the fact that great, proven fighters that fought the best are being somewhat belittled and not given more creedence. When I feel that it should be the otherway around..like Rickson needs or needed to prove himself against a Sak (whos brain injured from taking all comers), Penn, GSP, Hendo, Anderson etc etc...Im talking MMA..not the mundials

Fair enough - but circumstances killed the Sakuraba fight - not an unwillingness to fight. Sakuraba's victory over Royler was tainted due to an improper referee stoppage - so Rickson felt he could no longer compete in Pride with the Japanese working everything to their advantage. He fought the next best thing to Sakuraba who was Funaki in a different organization. Funaki who holds wins over proven fighters Ken Shamrock, Frank Shamrock, Bas Rutten, Guy Mezger, Jason Delucia.

Next, Rickson's son was killed in an accident and it effectively killed his career - although he was well past his prime when he fought Funaki. Saying Rickson would lose because other fighters lost is a spurious comparison at best.

[chimba]

Fair enough - but circumstances killed the Sakuraba fight - not an unwillingness to fight. Sakuraba's victory over Royler was tainted due to an improper referee stoppage - so Rickson felt he could no longer compete in Pride with the Japanese working everything to their advantage. He fought the next best thing to Sakuraba who was Funaki in a different organization. Funaki who holds wins over proven fighters Ken Shamrock, Frank Shamrock, Bas Rutten, Guy Mezger, Jason Delucia.

Next, Rickson's son was killed in an accident and it effectively killed his career - although he was well past his prime when he fought Funaki. Saying Rickson would lose because other fighters lost is a spurious comparison at best.

Yeah but Funaki was a few years away from Pancrease and was not the fighter he once was...He was never a Chuck, Randy, or rickson type who can fight at an old age.. Nakai to me was his best as far as quality... opponent..

I said MMA...I never said the Mundials or w/Gi JJ...Rickson was one if not the best, ...even Filho suggested that in his own opinion Rickson can beat anyone 90kg down..

I agree the lost of Rockson was the nail in the coffin as far as comebacks are concerned.

And lastly, to me in MMA..BJ for example can fend him off not to get subbed....but in alot of facets like striking TD defense..I give the edge to BJ...in a nutshell..If they dont sub each other..I give BJ the edge

[Beebs]

H A T E R A I D.

It's not just for dinner.
Jacare is amazing, Rickson was amazing, but Jacare and others at least deserves to be thought of in the same class. In my mind competition builds the overall level of sports over time, and it has increased probably 10x since Rickson was in his physical prime.

From what I hear about Rickson, on the ground is still elite level for elite level, but again, that is just what I hear, it could be people being a little starstruck, it could be being polite and paying omage, or it could even be that he's even better than what is said.

I've seen fighters fight alright against Rickson, its not like he always won in dominating clinical fashion.

This topic (overall, not this thread) has gotten overblown on both sides, we will never know, and part of that is Ricksons fault for fighting who he did instead of who he should have, but even when he was fighting he was probably a little past prime physically, especially later, so that helps to explain it.

The game has definatly grown just through putting more people into the machine, but Rickson has probably picked up on that now, but it wasn't there as much when he was fighting, so at the very least it shouldn't be called "hating", sacrelige, and what have you, to say that modern jiu jitsu guys could beat him. Today people seem to reach the peak of what is possible, only to be bested.

As an example Drysdale has caught up, possibly even passed the Marcelo Garcia's, Jacare's, Roger Gracie's, this just shows the sport always produces more and more talented people the more people compete. With more and more talented people, the talent level likely goes up some too, Its just natural that the more people their are, the more great people there are.