When would have Holmes beaten Ali? 1975,1976,1977,1978,1979, or 1980

[Mendoza]

At what year do you think Holmes would have beaten Ali?

I think as early as 1977.

[MRBILL]

Ali's LAST great performance was against Ernest Shavers in New York back in 1977....... That Ali had a chance against a still unproven Lawrence Holmes...... By the Summer of '78, Holmes kicks Ali's ass pretty hard and good....... Ali was gettin' sick with Parkinson's by 1978, though, no doctor had discovered the problem as of yet..... By 1980, even Stevie Wonder and Jose Feliciano could see that Ali was Ill..... WTF?

MR.BILL:-(

[AnthonyJ74]

At what year do you think Holmes would have beaten Ali?

I think as early as 1977.

Yeah, I think you are right. Holmes might have beaten him in 1976 as well. However, I think the Ali of Zaire and Manilla would have still been a tough nut for Holmes to crack. He was still pretty fast at that stage, and his combinations were crisp and solid.

[Jbuz]

Manila was his last great performance IMO. But in 75 and 76 Holmes wasn't exactly fighting anyone decent, a lot had losing records. So I'd say 1977.

[rusty nails]

holmes beats any post exile ali..

[My dinner with Conteh]

1977.

[TBooze]

Remember Holmes was Ali's sparring partner, and with hindsight probably had enough to beat Ali as early as post Manilla. But Holmes had a lot of respect for Ali and mentally I do not see him beating Ali until 78.

[Mendoza]

Yeah, I think you are right. Holmes might have beaten him in 1976 as well. However, I think the Ali of Zaire and Manilla would have still been a tough nut for Holmes to crack. He was still pretty fast at that stage, and his combinations were crisp and solid.

I can see 1976 too.

[Jbuz]

holmes beats any post exile ali..

Even before he turned pro in 73? :think

[mcvey]

At what year do you think Holmes would have beaten Ali?

I think as early as 1977.
I would say 77 ,possibly even 76.

[Holmes' Jab]

75-76 onwards.

[OBCboxer]

I would say 76 and onward. Ali was faded at this point and even lost to Neon Leon Spinks.

[TBooze]

holmes beats any post exile ali..

Holmes was a coward against Duane Bobick(!!!!!) post exile Ali.;)

[Addie]

Probably as early as 1977, I think before that Ali still had enough speed and heart to beat most, if not all former Heavyweight champions.

[PowerPuncher]

Ali was done in 76, but very possibly may have had enough left to old man a green Holmes at that stage. '77 onwards is Holmes time

[ThinBlack]

Larry mentioned once watching Ali-Norton III, knowing he could beat both of them.So I'm thinking anywhere from late 1976 onwards.

[Stevie G]

At what year do you think Holmes would have beaten Ali?

I think as early as 1977.
I agree,Mendoza. I'd rate 1976 as pick 'em,and Ali would win convincingly before that.

[Stevie G]

Even before he turned pro in 73? :think
:lol:

[Stevie G]

Probably as early as 1977, I think before that Ali still had enough speed and heart to beat most, if not all former Heavyweight champions.
The Ali of 1964-75,certainly.

[PowerPuncher]

I've changed my mind on this I think Holmes does better than a '76 Norton

[anut]

At what year do you think Holmes would have beaten Ali?

I think as early as 1978.

by 1977.................i have holmes vs rodney bobick (on dvd)on the ali/frazier 3 undercard in 75 and holmes was thin and definetly not ready for ali in 75.....i say 1977 but then again holmes struggled with tom prater in a 8 rd fight in 1977(i have that fight on dvd)....ali in 77 way past his due date still woulda wooped tom prater no prob.......so im going to say 1978:good:good

[tommygun711]

Post 76 is all Holmes.

[tommygun711]

Larry mentioned once watching Ali-Norton III, knowing he could beat both of them.So I'm thinking anywhere from late 1976 onwards.

That doesn't cement his argument

[Chaney]

Larry Holmes answered this question himself in his autobiography: As memory serves, I'm almost positive he said he considered himself the best heavyweight in the world and capable of beating Ali by 1976.

Personally, I think that prime Holmes is always a tough match-up for Ali...even if 60s Ali and 80s Holmes could be 'time-machined' together in their absolute primes.

Going by the actual timeline, I see the Ali from Frazier III having too much of an edge in experience, and beating Holmes in a tough match.

After Manila in 1975, Ali was a spent force. Still a good fighter, but never a great fighter after that point. Ali could still give Holmes a very good fight in 1976, but I don't think he's going to beat Holmes at any point after Frazier III. Any later than 1976, and Ali is losing very badly to Larry, IMO.




Frazier III was absolutely the last fight Ali should have had. Probably, after beating Foreman was the ideal exit point for Ali. He would have left the sport with a reasonably unscrambled brain.

[JWSoats]

If I remember correctly, in the book Facing Ali, Holmes states that having been a sparring partner for Ali, he knew all of his moves and could have beaten him in 1975. Maybe, but my pick would be 1977 based on their respective showings against Earnie Shavers in this time period.

[1899sharkey]

Even before he turned pro in 73? :think
He probably meant a prime Holmes would have defeated any post exile Ali, which i would have to agree with. Just for the record i do believe a prime Ali beats a prime Holmes.

[lufcrazy]

Well ali lost to norton in 76 and I fancy holmes to have a number on ali from that fight on.

[Conteh]

Depends on how you view the first Spinks fight, was that orchrastrated by Ali ( but that's another thread)?

Late 76 for me

[Robbi]

Personally, I think that prime Holmes is always a tough match-up for Ali...even if 60s Ali and 80s Holmes could be 'time-machined' together in their absolute primes.

1978-1982, for me.

[Stevie G]

If I remember correctly, in the book Facing Ali, Holmes states that having been a sparring partner for Ali, he knew all of his moves and could have beaten him in 1975. Maybe, but my pick would be 1977 based on their respective showings against Earnie Shavers in this time period.
Larry was fooling himself if he thought that he could've beaten Muhammad in '75.

[MAG1965]

Holmes could start to win about 1977 and on.

[he grant]

All of those years ... if we're talking a prime Holmes ..

[TheGreatA]

Holmes was a mere 200 pounds by 1975. Between 1976-1977 it would have been a close fight to call, Holmes did not look exceptional against Williams, Prater or Arrington and Ali had a few tricks in the bag to impress the judges. By 1978 the fight goes easily in Holmes's favour.

[Bokaj]

Holmes was a mere 200 pounds by 1975. Between 1976-1977 it would have been a close fight to call, Holmes did not look exceptional against Williams, Prater or Arrington and Ali had a few tricks in the bag to impress the judges. By 1978 the fight goes easily in Holmes's favour.

Yeah, Holmes wasn't seen as anything special before the Shavers fight. That Holmes would likely beat any Ali post-Manilla, but in 1976 I can see Ali doing at least as well as he did against Norton and Young that year; i e at least winning a very controversial decision.

[red cobra]

Holmes would have beaten Ali in '77.

[PoliSari]

post 1977 i would lean towards.. otherwise no. maybe 76.. but i would not bet on it anyway.

[zadfrak]

Holmes was a mere 200 pounds by 1975. Between 1976-1977 it would have been a close fight to call, Holmes did not look exceptional against Williams, Prater or Arrington and Ali had a few tricks in the bag to impress the judges. By 1978 the fight goes easily in Holmes's favour.


Yep. And you can't ignore the other huge factor in all of this--if a guy does not ko Ali, it is going to be very very difficult to win on the scorecards back then. Don King did not have the big pull back then like he developed in the 80's. It was Arum who promoted all those Ali fights after that Wepner defense. Larry could win the fight in the fan's eyes maybe, but those 3 judges is another story.