Who were most loyal to their trainer/cornermen?

[ChrisPontius]

Roy Jones has had Alton Merkerson (a Vietnam vet) for a very long time, at least 15 years and will have him in his corner for his fight with Calzaghe next weekend. Others?

[MRBILL]

Ali to Angelo Dundee and Joe Louis to Jack Blackburn.... A great chemistry was there...

MR.BILL

[tommy the hat]

Ali and Dundee, Louis and Blackburn, Hagler and the Petronellis,Manny Steward and most of the Kronk fighters he developed from when they were kids, Calzaghe and his dad. George Foreman and Archie Moore spent alot of time together, including both phases of his career.

[Rebel-INS]

Hearns and Steward, you couldn't have one without the other.

[A Rock]

pavlike and loew

[heehoo]

Tommy Hearns and Emmanuel Steward. Hearns became a puncher under his guidance, and as such, he remained loyal.

[mcvey]

Roy Jones has had Alton Merkerson (a Vietnam vet) for a very long time, at least 15 years and will have him in his corner for his fight with Calzaghe next weekend. Others?
Jim Braddock to Joe Gould
Jimmy Mclarnin to Pops Foster,who became his guardian and left him his estate when he died.

[mcvey]

Roy Jones has had Alton Merkerson (a Vietnam vet) for a very long time, at least 15 years and will have him in his corner for his fight with Calzaghe next weekend. Others?
The reverse side would be ODH and BHOP

[Stonehands89]

Roy Jones has had Alton Merkerson (a Vietnam vet) for a very long time, at least 15 years and will have him in his corner for his fight with Calzaghe next weekend. Others?
I wouldn't compare Jones' loyalty to Merkerson with Hagler's to the Petronelli's or Louis' to Blackburn. Jones turned to Merkerson in '93 after firing his dad (I think it was after dad shot one of his dogs, who had bitten a kid) and Merkeron began working with Jones in the Hopkins' fight and continued on from there. Big Roy didn't get in the way -according to Merkerson, until Jones was dumb enough to invite volatile dad into camp for Tarver III. That wasn't loyalty to Merkerson. Merkerson had no idea who was running the camp, he and Big Roy weren't talking, and Jones was going to two camps at times during training.

No one even knew who'd be the chief second until practically fight time when Jones decided that during the minute rest dad would offer his input between rounds and then Merkerson would offer his. All three proclaimed that "Dad knows Roy like no other." Maybe so, but Roy didn't know dad very well because what happened was utterly predictable considering Big Roy's history and well-documented personality -Dad had an assistant pushing Merkerson out of the way while he tried to take over in the corner. Roy lost the fight of course and blamed dad...of course.

[Bad_Intentions]

Lennox Lewis & Manny Stewart :good

[teeto]

Jimmy Mclarnin to Pops Foster,who became his guardian and left him his estate when he died.

I'd totally forgotten about that, i have a good photo of the two together after McLarnin's retirement.

[sweet_scientist]

De la Hoya to Robert Alcazar, Jesus Rivero, Gil Clancy, Manny Steward, Freddy Roach, Floyd Mayweather Sr, and Nacho Beristain. :D

[teeto]

De la Hoya to Robert Alcazar, Jesus Rivero, Gil Clancy, Manny Steward, Freddy Roach, Floyd Mayweather Sr, and Nacho Beristain. :D

:rofl :rofl :rofl

[MRBILL]

Hearns and Steward, you couldn't have one without the other.

Hearns did bail on Steward for several fights in the early to mid-90's... I think it was a money / contract dispute.?.?:shock:

MR.BILL

[OLD FOGEY]

It certainly wasn't Firpo. His trainer, Jimmy DeForest, asked for a raise after he guided the bull to the big time and the cheapskate Firpo showed him the gate.

[younghypnotiq]

vargas and garcia

[zadfrak]

Longest timeframe would be Griffith with Gil Clancy.

[fists of fury]

Ted 'Kid' Lewis and Ray Arcel comes to mind.

[Holmes' Jab]

Ted 'Kid' Lewis and Ray Arcel comes to mind.


Good one. :good

[ChrisPontius]

I wouldn't compare Jones' loyalty to Merkerson with Hagler's to the Petronelli's or Louis' to Blackburn. Jones turned to Merkerson in '93 after firing his dad (I think it was after dad shot one of his dogs, who had bitten a kid) and Merkeron began working with Jones in the Hopkins' fight and continued on from there. Big Roy didn't get in the way -according to Merkerson, until Jones was dumb enough to invite volatile dad into camp for Tarver III. That wasn't loyalty to Merkerson. Merkerson had no idea who was running the camp, he and Big Roy weren't talking, and Jones was going to two camps at times during training.

No one even knew who'd be the chief second until practically fight time when Jones decided that during the minute rest dad would offer his input between rounds and then Merkerson would offer his. All three proclaimed that "Dad knows Roy like no other." Maybe so, but Roy didn't know dad very well because what happened was utterly predictable considering Big Roy's history and well-documented personality -Dad had an assistant pushing Merkerson out of the way while he tried to take over in the corner. Roy lost the fight of course and blamed dad...of course.

I know you hate Roy Jones, but you have to be honest here and admit that there are few fighters who have kept the same trainer for fifteen years. Yes, he went back to his father once after being knocked out, but other than that, it was all Merkerson.

[Quickhands21]

Zab has been pretty fair to Yoel to say the least

[JohnThomas1]

Just a point, Hearns and Steward where split at the time of the Hill fight. Don't know why. Regardless Steward picked Hearns on the day saying what a true professional he was.

[JohnThomas1]

Actually now i think about it Edwin Rosario and Manny Siaca went for a long time. Lived in the same town, met when Rosario was 8, and he was deffo in there vs Chavez at the very least, perhaps his whole career.

[DamonD]

Lennox Lewis & Manny Stewart :good
More than that - Lennox Lewis and Courtney Shand/Harold Knight. Cornerman, co-trainer, cuts man, bodyguard...they did it all, for the whole pro career ride, 14 years.

[Vantage_West]

surprised no one has said tyson to cus.



joe to enzo is a big one. joe gave up his olympics dreams for enzo. when joe asked for a suppliment trainer to help him with conditioning and weight...somthing that is very common in most camps enzo almost split.

[istmeno]

duran with freddie brown and ray arcel

[ChrisPontius]

More than that - Lennox Lewis and Courtney Shand/Harold Knight. Cornerman, co-trainer, cuts man, bodyguard...they did it all, for the whole pro career ride, 14 years.

Good call, i always liked seeing Harold Knight there in his corner and during training. True professionals.

[Stonehands89]

I know you hate Roy Jones, but you have to be honest here and admit that there are few fighters who have kept the same trainer for fifteen years. Yes, he went back to his father once after being knocked out, but other than that, it was all Merkerson.
"Hate" is a strong word. I find Jones' personality... distasteful...obnoxious...stunted....artificially inflated...

DpqU7DGZ45g

(Now you do too.) And I find his p4p standing/greatness woefully overrated by the young among us who are easily dazzled by speed and power. He's not anywhere near the all-time top 10-20 elites and I get and will continue to get judgmental against anyone claiming so. To be fair, head-to-head, he'd be difficult for many greats in 2 or 3 divisions and he's among the most naturally gifted of the "athletic boxers" I've seen.

Another qualifier: His ego probably isn't the only thing artificially inflated, I am utterly convinced he's been juiced since the mid-90s.

As per loyalty to trainers, I didn't dismiss his loyalty so much as blush at a comparison between his loyalty to Merk and Hagler's to the Petronelli's and Louis's to Blackburn.

[laxpdx]

Max Schmeling-Joe Jacobs. Despite pressure from the Nazi regime, Max refused to fire his Jewish trainer.

[SteveO]

Floyd and Roger Mayweather.

[WhataRock]

Zab has been pretty fair to Yoel to say the least

Yoel's cornering skills are unrivalled..What more can you say than "Bing bang boom and then Bam!!!" Its 1min of rushed instructions in less then 8 secs.

When I first saw Yoel in action I was shocked. I went straight to my local gym, to my old trainer and Im like "Whats the deal? You told me about the bing and bang but what about the boom and bam??" "I could have been so much more if I had known about those"

He just told me he didnt think I was ready....what could have been.

[young griffo]

"Hate" is a strong word. I find Jones' personality... distasteful...obnoxious...stunted....artificially inflated...

DpqU7DGZ45g

(Now you do too.) And I find his p4p standing/greatness woefully overrated by the young among us who are easily dazzled by speed and power. He's not anywhere near the all-time top 10-20 elites and I get and will continue to get judgmental against anyone claiming so. To be fair, head-to-head, he'd be difficult for many greats in 2 or 3 divisions and he's among the most naturally gifted of the "athletic boxers" I've seen.

Another qualifier: His ego probably isn't the only thing artificially inflated, I am utterly convinced he's been juiced since the mid-90s.

As per loyalty to trainers, I didn't dismiss his loyalty so much as blush at a comparison between his loyalty to Merk and Hagler's to the Petronelli's and Louis's to Blackburn.
He had a huge ego but what boxer doesn't?

He seems to have mellowed in the twilight of his career and was nothing but class before and after the Calzaghe fight.

Given his dysfunctional upbringing (boxing training since he was in nappies,regular beatings) under a tyrannical father,I reckon he turned out pretty decent.

Whether or not he was "juiced" is all speculation.I know he tested positive to a banned substance but it didn't incur a suspension and he said it was from a supplicant of some sort.So I'll keep an open mind about it even if you won't.

I suppose the fact he never said he could've sent a beaten opponent to the morgue or called Ray Leonard's wife a whore costs him in the eye's of the real purist.Personally I think saying shit like that is a lot more distasteful,obnoxious and despicable than Roy's childlike boastfulness.

[Ted Stickles]

Goldman/Marciano

[Arriba]

Yoel's cornering skills are unrivalled..What more can you say than "Bing bang boom and then Bam!!!" Its 1min of rushed instructions in less then 8 secs.

When I first saw Yoel in action I was shocked. I went straight to my local gym, to my old trainer and Im like "Whats the deal? You told me about the bing and bang but what about the boom and bam??" "I could have been so much more if I had known about those"

He just told me he didnt think I was ready....what could have been.

I was watching a Zab fight with a girl and all she kept asking me was "what does Bing, Bang, Boom, Zip Zab stand for?"

All I could do was shake my head and sigh...some people will never learn.

[ChrisPontius]

"Hate" is a strong word. I find Jones' personality... distasteful...obnoxious...stunted....artificially inflated...

DpqU7DGZ45g

(Now you do too.) And I find his p4p standing/greatness woefully overrated by the young among us who are easily dazzled by speed and power. He's not anywhere near the all-time top 10-20 elites and I get and will continue to get judgmental against anyone claiming so. To be fair, head-to-head, he'd be difficult for many greats in 2 or 3 divisions and he's among the most naturally gifted of the "athletic boxers" I've seen.

Another qualifier: His ego probably isn't the only thing artificially inflated, I am utterly convinced he's been juiced since the mid-90s.

As per loyalty to trainers, I didn't dismiss his loyalty so much as blush at a comparison between his loyalty to Merk and Hagler's to the Petronelli's and Louis's to Blackburn.

This post goes to show how personal your dislike for Jones is. I know you will try to back it up with the relevant facts, but in the end it's personal for you.

Just like you can state that Louis was more loyal to Blackburn, but if you have an objective view, you will see that Jones' loyalty to Merkerson is very rare for a top fighter indeed.

[Stonehands89]

He had a huge ego but what boxer doesn't?
Many don't! Many realize that they're lucky to leave the ring in one piece and are humbled by the inherent risks of their profession and the knowledge that much of what keeps them safe is blind luck.

He seems to have mellowed in the twilight of his career and was nothing but class before and after the Calzaghe fight.
He was never bad after a fight and always seemed to be grateful to the opponent for playing straight man to his performance. His opinion of himself, whether to pump himself up or whatever was, in my opinion, both arrogant and clownish.

Given his dysfunctional upbringing (boxing training since he was in nappies,regular beatings) under a tyrannical father,I reckon he turned out pretty decent.
Go read up on Duran's upbringing. If you excuse Jones like this, you'll petition the pope to beatify Duran.

Whether or not he was "juiced" is all speculation.I know he tested positive to a banned substance but it didn't incur a suspension and he said it was from a supplicant of some sort.So I'll keep an open mind about it even if you won't.
Just because it didn't incur a suspension doesn't mean a thing. He was a superstar and we can expect plenty of motivation from a sport as corrupt as boxing to turn a blind eye to something like this. I for one have considered the evidence and have become utterly convinced. Who could have sat there and watched "The Devil and Mr. Jones" and not had very strong suspicions that both Jones and Paz were juiced??

I suppose the fact he never said he could've sent a beaten opponent to the morgue or called Ray Leonard's wife a whore costs him in the eye's of the real purist.Personally I think saying shit like that is a lot more distasteful,obnoxious and despicable than Roy's childlike boastfulness.
You took a shot and missed. Duran was an asshole. I'm on record as saying that several times.

[Robbi]

De la Hoya to Robert Alcazar, Jesus Rivero, Gil Clancy, Manny Steward, Freddy Roach, Floyd Mayweather Sr, and Nacho Beristain. :D

You missed another.

[Ezzard]

Just because it didn't incur a suspension doesn't mean a thing. He was a superstar and we can expect plenty of motivation from a sport as corrupt as boxing to turn a blind eye to something like this. I for one have considered the evidence and have become utterly convinced. Who could have sat there and watched "The Devil and Mr. Jones" and not had very strong suspicions that both Jones and Paz were juiced??


Stonehands you are a great poster...

On this subject something people don't understand is just how physically fit a boxer is. How punishing their training is.

Now, let me just widen oput the debate way from just Jones... I know guys who juice up. They work out, eat like maniacs and build muscles on muscles... BUt they hit the weights, eat and sleep. You cannot put on 10+ pounds of solid muscle and train like a pro-boxer. The guys I know won't jog a minute for fear that aerobic exercise will deflate their hard earned biceps etc...and these guys freely admit to injecting.

It's not just Jones (but the rumours among insiders in the sport have gone on for over a decade). IMO any fighter jumping up and down weights is doing so through the use of something they shouldn't or has not been available in the past.

[Stonehands89]

This post goes to show how personal your dislike for Jones is. I know you will try to back it up with the relevant facts, but in the end it's personal for you.
You're lurching towards a fallacious ad hominem argument, Chris. My distaste for Jones' personality has nothing to do with my high esteem for his athleticism or his chances in H2Hs with former greats any more than it does my position that he does not belong in the all-time top 20. If you're trying to dismiss my opinions of him as a boxer due to my low opinion for him as a man, then it is you who is being unfair.

I suspect that had you met any number of fighters between 1900 and 1920, you'd believe that you were in the presence of trash. Many of them were raw-boned, low-class brutes. Had you met that sociopath Monzon, you'd dislike him. The manic-depressive ignoramus that was Tyson would be difficult to have a drink with too. Duran was hedonistic, rude, loud, and ridiculous, and had he walked into your bar and you didn't know who he was, chances are that you would walk out. As would I. To further illustrate the point, I believe that Don King is evil... but that has nothing to do with his prowess as a businessman -which I fully recognize.

Just like you can state that Louis was more loyal to Blackburn, but if you have an objective view, you will see that Jones' loyalty to Merkerson is very rare for a top fighter indeed.
I'll give you that compared to today's top fighters, Jones' loyalty to Merk is very rare indeed. I'm with you there. Compared to Oscar, Jones is the apostle John. However, if you, for your part, use a wider lens and look at the past 80 years as opposed to the last 20, you'd see that there are several examples of more impressive loyalty.

[DamonD]

I wonder who you could accuse of being the least loyal?

I can think of a few very good fighters indeed that went through trainers like candy at some points of their career.

[Stonehands89]

Stonehands you are a great poster...
I'm just a bum from the neighborhood. But thanks, and the high regard is shared here for you.

On this subject something people don't understand is just how physically fit a boxer is. How punishing their training is.

Now, let me just widen oput the debate way from just Jones... I know guys who juice up. They work out, eat like maniacs and build muscles on muscles... BUt they hit the weights, eat and sleep. You cannot put on 10+ pounds of solid muscle and train like a pro-boxer. The guys I know won't jog a minute for fear that aerobic exercise will deflate their hard earned biceps etc...and these guys freely admit to injecting.

It's not just Jones (but the rumours among insiders in the sport have gone on for over a decade). IMO any fighter jumping up and down weights is doing so through the use of something they shouldn't or has not been available in the past.
Thanks for the info. I live in mortal terror that Holyfield was juiced throughout his HW career. If so, then he is a cheater and his accomplishments since 1988 should be wiped away. Same goes for Jones.

[Ezzard]

I'm just a bum from the neighborhood. But thanks, and the high regard is shared here for you.


Thanks for the info. I live in mortal terror that Holyfield was juiced throughout his HW career. If so, then he is a cheater and his accomplishments since 1988 should be wiped away. Same goes for Jones.

Except that their opponents were probably juiced too. Always the problem when comparing greats out of their eras. This is why I take many of the h2h arguments with a pinch of salt (the ones based on athleticism).

Guys used to outgrow their division (sometimes), maybe they'd stretch it to the full weight class and go from 147 to 160 (for example). But they grew into it. They couldn't then jump back down so easily.

Even in his best performances at 154 Duran was never tight, not even when he'd trained properly.

[Stonehands89]

Except that their opponents were probably juiced too. Always the problem when comparing greats out of their eras. This is why I take many of the h2h arguments with a pinch of salt (the ones based on athleticism).

Guys used to outgrow their division (sometimes), maybe they'd stretch it to the full weight class and go from 147 to 160 (for example). But they grew into it. They couldn't then jump back down so easily.

Even in his best performances at 154 Duran was never tight, not even when he'd trained properly.
Duran simply ate more, trained less, and relied on experience and skill as opposed to athleticism. And you're on the money -he was never a physical work of art after 147 and after the age of 30. "Duran's looking soft around the middle" was a stable of commentators for the next 20 years. I for one would have loved to see the Montreal Duran at 145 face JMWs just for the hell of it. He may have done better in that form than he would have with the extra steaks...

Speaking of that, I have more respect for those fighters way back when who'd step up and face larger men and were still close to their best weight. Armstrong faced and beat Ross for the WW title at 133 and three months later faced Ambers at LW at a pound more. The great (as in top 10 great in my book) Mickey Walker at 168 faced 210 Bearcat Wright and almost finished him over 10 rounds back in '31. You just gotta love that.

Roids are for cheaters and cowards. And if 1/2 the best fighters of the 90s were juiced, then I'd dismiss the whole lot of them.

[ChrisPontius]

You're lurching towards a fallacious ad hominem argument, Chris. My distaste for Jones' personality has nothing to do with my high esteem for his athleticism or his chances in H2Hs with former greats any more than it does my position that he does not belong in the all-time top 20. If you're trying to dismiss my opinions of him as a boxer due to my low opinion for him as a man, then it is you who is being unfair.


I'm not dismissing your opinion, i'm simply saying that you were giving him way too little credit (people that stay with the same trainer for 16 years don't grow on trees) for the topic that was originally discussed, which means either you are either ill informed or biased towards him. And i think we both know which of the two is applicable.



I suspect that had you met any number of fighters between 1900 and 1920, you'd believe that you were in the presence of trash. Many of them were raw-boned, low-class brutes. Had you met that sociopath Monzon, you'd dislike him. The manic-depressive ignoramus that was Tyson would be difficult to have a drink with too. Duran was hedonistic, rude, loud, and ridiculous, and had he walked into your bar and you didn't know who he was, chances are that you would walk out. As would I. To further illustrate the point, I believe that Don King is evil... but that has nothing to do with his prowess as a businessman -which I fully recognize.


Agree. Society has changed a lot since 1900 however, i don't think it's entirely fair to compare. Back then, you were either a farmer or a manual laborer with very way in between. Violence and brutality was a lot more accepted. Thousands if not millions of deaths during wars were acceptable - today one body bag a week is already causing mass hysteria and protest on staying in Iraq.

[ChrisPontius]

Roids are for cheaters and cowards. And if 1/2 the best fighters of the 90s were juiced, then I'd dismiss the whole lot of them.

For cheaters and cowards, why?

If everyone, as some might want you to believe, is on them, then why is it cheating? Isn't it just one form of getting better prepared to fight, just like doing roadwork and eating three times a day?

What's more, if making your living and sometimes your life depends on it, would you willfully give your opponent an advantage? Athletes and boxers especially are defined by their will to win, and i doubt they'd let moral values come into play to hinder them. EVERY great fighter has a dirty move, be it low blows, holding and hitting, holding behind the neck or whatever, they all have something. Clearly winning is more important than moral values.

[TBooze]

Hagler and the Petronelli's. The Marvelous one was so loyal to the inept brothers he stood by them despite them costing him a draw with Vito and a lot of heat after the Duran bout.

[sweet_scientist]

You missed another.

Who was it?

[Robbi]

Who was it?


See if you can find out for yourself. I will tell you, eventually.

[Stonehands89]

I missed this, apologies. Better late than never.
I'm not dismissing your opinion, i'm simply saying that you were giving him way too little credit (people that stay with the same trainer for 16 years don't grow on trees) for the topic that was originally discussed, which means either you are either ill informed or biased towards him. And i think we both know which of the two is applicable.
I think that you are making your case based on your own assumptions instead of what I said. What I said was that compared to Louis and Hagler, Jones was simply not as loyal. What's more, I said that if you want to limit the scope to "over the past 20 years" than I'd agree with you.

Agree. Society has changed a lot since 1900 however, i don't think it's entirely fair to compare. Back then, you were either a farmer or a manual laborer with very way in between. Violence and brutality was a lot more accepted. Thousands if not millions of deaths during wars were acceptable - today one body bag a week is already causing mass hysteria and protest on staying in Iraq.
Excellent points.

However, you chose to ignore several examples after the first two sentences about modern pr*cks who you and I probably share disdain for personally, but recognize their professional talent without the taint of bias. Boxing is full of egotists, scoundrels, psychotics, rapists, clowns, and brutes. Your assumption that my distaste for Jones' personality somehow poisons the validity of my arguments about his career is, I think, a poor man's way of dealing with those arguments.

[Stonehands89]

For cheaters and cowards, why?

If everyone, as some might want you to believe, is on them, then why is it cheating? Isn't it just one form of getting better prepared to fight, just like doing roadwork and eating three times a day?

What's more, if making your living and sometimes your life depends on it, would you willfully give your opponent an advantage? Athletes and boxers especially are defined by their will to win, and i doubt they'd let moral values come into play to hinder them. EVERY great fighter has a dirty move, be it low blows, holding and hitting, holding behind the neck or whatever, they all have something. Clearly winning is more important than moral values.
What is this? The "Gospel according to Panama Lewis"?

If you and I agree to meet and fight without weapons, and you bring a pipe, I'd call you a coward before I did my utmost to lodge that pipe up your butt.

"Clearly winning" is not more important than moral values unless you are either a Satanist or a Nihilist. By my experience, your ideas about the culture of boxers are way off. There is honor among fighters -they recognize it for what it is and they do practice it. You see it in their touching gloves after a hard fought round. You see it when they embrace after a fight. You see it in the mutual respect they have for one another. You see it all over the place. There are exceptions... but most fighters resemble Alexis Arguello and his honor than they do Tyson in his "f*ch the world" attitude.

If you snuck in an advantage -not like using retaliatory low blows or rabbit punching, but something that would enhance the power of your blows by say a multiple of 2, then you could do serious, long-term or permanent damage to another human being. Steroids greatly enhances human strength. The blows of a boxer are already designed to give maximum damage, they have many decades of evolutionary enhancement and efficiency behind them -steroids greatly increase the risk of injury and death as a result of those blows. If some fighters remove the stuffing from their gloves or put an iron bolt in one of them, should you do the same just in case? Doing so is not only immoral -it is criminal. Panama Lewis had a "will to win". And he was a piece of sh*t for what he did to Billy Collins, nothing more than that. Same goes for Resto. I see similarity in those fighters who make steroids part of their regiment.

Steroids are illegal for a reason. If they are legalized for boxers, then you will see the sport undergo a cataclysmic change. It would resemble the 1900s again and for good reason. The avoidance of blows will become far more important than putting the fragile human face in the way of them... because the blows will have far more force in them. If boxing remained the same -in close and more active than it was then, then there will be more fatalities and the abolitionists will make noise. Boxing is dangerous enough as it is.

Those of us who want to protect the sport and it's practitioners (and I know that you are among them!) have an obligation --a moral obligation-- to condemn the use of steroids and do what we can to have testing mandated in every state and every country with fierce cosequences for those who use them.

[john garfield]

I wouldn't compare Jones' loyalty to Merkerson with Hagler's to the Petronelli's or Louis' to Blackburn. Jones turned to Merkerson in '93 after firing his dad (I think it was after dad shot one of his dogs, who had bitten a kid) and Merkeron began working with Jones in the Hopkins' fight and continued on from there. Big Roy didn't get in the way -according to Merkerson, until Jones was dumb enough to invite volatile dad into camp for Tarver III. That wasn't loyalty to Merkerson. Merkerson had no idea who was running the camp, he and Big Roy weren't talking, and Jones was going to two camps at times during training.

No one even knew who'd be the chief second until practically fight time when Jones decided that during the minute rest dad would offer his input between rounds and then Merkerson would offer his. All three proclaimed that "Dad knows Roy like no other." Maybe so, but Roy didn't know dad very well because what happened was utterly predictable considering Big Roy's history and well-documented personality -Dad had an assistant pushing Merkerson out of the way while he tried to take over in the corner. Roy lost the fight of course and blamed dad...of course.

Yich! S Tough enough to work a corner under the best of circumstances, but with all that Shakespearean drama, sounds like a nightmare.

[john garfield]

This thread put me in mind of something I'd like to share:

On a frigid afternoon in the mid '40s, I climbed the 13 steps to Stillman’s Gym to learn how to box and emulate local idols, Rocky Graziano and Jake LaMotta.

The gatekeeper at the head of the stairs, collecting quarters for entrance, was manager Jack Curley, under the gimlet eye of Lou Stillman, seated on a raised chair next to ring # 1.

I paid and asked Jack Curley if he could set me up with a trainer.

After appraising me like pawnbroker, he crooked a finger at a character the image of the Penguin in a Batman comic book.

“Izzy, see what the kid’s got.”

He must have been 40ish, 'bout 5-7 – bulging wall-eyes, the drained pallor of a lifetime in airless gyms, and dark, kinky-curly hair threatening to uncoil but bulldogged down and parted in the middle like a ‘20s bootlegger.

His nose was much too long for his face and pointy as a dart. He had no chin, no neck, was shaped like a pear and his stomach hiked up his trousers to his chest. He wore what must have been a white T-shirt at one time and an unbuttoned cardigan sweater with a towel thrown over his shoulder.

Rocking back on his heels, he shuffled over, chest out, straight up and flatfooted; his shoes pointing outward like a Garment Center salesman. The only thing missing was the Penguin's umbrella.

He was my coach for the years I trained at Stillman’s. His name was Izzy Blank, and he looked after me like a son.

Though Izzy never gained the notoriety of a Charley Goldman, Ray Arcel, Whitey Bimstein, and the like, he was respected and embraced by the fraternity and was spared, for the most part, from Stillman’s wrath

As good or bad as I ever got, Izzy never allowed me to forget what he thought unpardonable: As a teenager, I did what all the other kids did, I carried a condom in my wallet-- not that I had chance to use it-- but it was expected.

One day while changing, the rubber fell out of my wallet onto the floor and Izzy saw it. If I did anything after that that didn't live up to his expectation, he shrugged: "Sure! How can he fight? He's in the saddle!"

I had to do three times what anybody else did. If I so much as took a deep breathe: "The kid's in the saddle!"

Izzy Blank died a few years ago…still unsung -- a funny, dear man that was my professor at the University of Eighth Ave.
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[Stonehands89]

Beautiful, JG.

[Ezzard]

What is this? The "Gospel according to Panama Lewis"?

If you and I agree to meet and fight without weapons, and you bring a pipe, I'd call you a coward before I did my utmost to lodge that pipe up your butt.

"Clearly winning" is not more important than moral values unless you are either a Satanist or a Nihilist. By my experience, your ideas about the culture of boxers are way off. There is honor among fighters -they recognize it for what it is and they do practice it. You see it in their touching gloves after a hard fought round. You see it when they embrace after a fight. You see it in the mutual respect they have for one another. You see it all over the place. There are exceptions... but most fighters resemble Alexis Arguello and his honor than they do Tyson in his "f*ch the world" attitude.

If you snuck in an advantage -not like using retaliatory low blows or rabbit punching, but something that would enhance the power of your blows by say a multiple of 2, then you could do serious, long-term or permanent damage to another human being. Steroids greatly enhances human strength. The blows of a boxer are already designed to give maximum damage, they have many decades of evolutionary enhancement and efficiency behind them -steroids greatly increase the risk of injury and death as a result of those blows. If some fighters remove the stuffing from their gloves or put an iron bolt in one of them, should you do the same just in case? Doing so is not only immoral -it is criminal. Panama Lewis had a "will to win". And he was a piece of sh*t for what he did to Billy Collins, nothing more than that. Same goes for Resto. I see similarity in those fighters who make steroids part of their regiment.

Steroids are illegal for a reason. If they are legalized for boxers, then you will see the sport undergo a cataclysmic change. It would resemble the 1900s again and for good reason. The avoidance of blows will become far more important than putting the fragile human face in the way of them... because the blows will have far more force in them. If boxing remained the same -in close and more active than it was then, then there will be more fatalities and the abolitionists will make noise. Boxing is dangerous enough as it is.

Those of us who want to protect the sport and it's practitioners (and I know that you are among them!) have an obligation --a moral obligation-- to condemn the use of steroids and do what we can to have testing mandated in every state and every country with fierce cosequences for those who use them.

I think that you and Chris raise good points.

I think for the good of the sport everythig you say is spot on. Yet, I can understand Chris's will to win at all costs notion.

The problem for boxing is that the lion has no teeth. No governing body really seems to have any real power and the promoters don't care.

This was posted on blackathlete.com


ROY JONES JR. IS IN DENIAL
By Elisa Harrison
Posted: Wednesday, June 09, 2004


"Hall (Nevada states head of dopking) stated during interview that Jones had tested positive for anabolic steroids use when the two met back in May of 2000.
Hall stated "I now tender my resignation he (Mr Jones) has now failed four doping test (97,98,00 x2) they have also lost seven of Mr Roy Jones samples. I have written to both the NewYork and Nevada state athletic commisions stating that he (Jones) has tested positive for Testosterone Enanthate at least four times, his serum levels were 100x that of normal levels."

when pressed into the effect that would have on his performances he added: "Its like he is taking a machine gun into a knife fight his strentgh and speed would be too much for two men to overcome".



MIAMI, FLA.

When questioned about his lack luster form in training Roy Jones seemed lost for words and so he should. This is his first bout since the new approved commissioned human growth hormone test is being used. Anthony Hall the former head of doping was newly re-appointed after being proven right in the James Toney case (See appendix 43) has demanded weekly tests for Testosterone and groth hormone for Roy Jones Jr.

Mr Hall has claimed and shown undeniable evidence of irregular testosterone levels in mr Roy Jones, who has claimed that it was suppliments that caused the ****e in his serum levels. Those claim have been squashed by male hormone experts who called them farsicle.

I caught up with Mr Hall during my stay in Las Vegas last week and he stated: "This is the first fight that we are able to put together a testing regime foolproof to any comebacks. Its the same regime mr Jones took part in back in 97 but this time it has a government seal on it, his lawyers or anybodies lawyers for that matter can contest." When pushed by his distain for Jones he added: " I and the rest of the Nevada and New York state know that he (Roy Jones) was using illegal means going into all of his fight from 1996 FACT." a loophole and good lawyers got him off." When i pushed Hall about the statements hes made he said: "Look its in black and white every fight since 1996 we tested his serum testosterone levels they were through the roof. Now those tests which are 99.9% accurate were called wrong i will be intrested to see how he performes in his next bout if his performance levels stay the same then i say hes still a cheat, but i have a feeling he (Roy Jones) will not be able to sustain the level of performance without using these hormones"

"Lets see how he does in the Tarver bout"

[ChrisPontius]

What is this? The "Gospel according to Panama Lewis"?

If you and I agree to meet and fight without weapons, and you bring a pipe, I'd call you a coward before I did my utmost to lodge that pipe up your butt.

"Clearly winning" is not more important than moral values unless you are either a Satanist or a Nihilist. By my experience, your ideas about the culture of boxers are way off. There is honor among fighters -they recognize it for what it is and they do practice it. You see it in their touching gloves after a hard fought round. You see it when they embrace after a fight. You see it in the mutual respect they have for one another. You see it all over the place. There are exceptions... but most fighters resemble Alexis Arguello and his honor than they do Tyson in his "f*ch the world" attitude.

If you snuck in an advantage -not like using retaliatory low blows or rabbit punching, but something that would enhance the power of your blows by say a multiple of 2, then you could do serious, long-term or permanent damage to another human being. Steroids greatly enhances human strength. The blows of a boxer are already designed to give maximum damage, they have many decades of evolutionary enhancement and efficiency behind them -steroids greatly increase the risk of injury and death as a result of those blows. If some fighters remove the stuffing from their gloves or put an iron bolt in one of them, should you do the same just in case? Doing so is not only immoral -it is criminal. Panama Lewis had a "will to win". And he was a piece of sh*t for what he did to Billy Collins, nothing more than that. Same goes for Resto. I see similarity in those fighters who make steroids part of their regiment.

Steroids are illegal for a reason. If they are legalized for boxers, then you will see the sport undergo a cataclysmic change. It would resemble the 1900s again and for good reason. The avoidance of blows will become far more important than putting the fragile human face in the way of them... because the blows will have far more force in them. If boxing remained the same -in close and more active than it was then, then there will be more fatalities and the abolitionists will make noise. Boxing is dangerous enough as it is.

Those of us who want to protect the sport and it's practitioners (and I know that you are among them!) have an obligation --a moral obligation-- to condemn the use of steroids and do what we can to have testing mandated in every state and every country with fierce cosequences for those who use them.
I think you're overreacting. I know you were exaggerating there, but if power really doubled, then Tyson's would've grown like toads since the 70's, but they didn't. It is likely that many boxers have already been using them since at least then and the 1900's style you speak of is nowhere to be found. And removing the stuffing from gloves is an entirely separate issue.

I admire your moral stance, but for athletes, winning is the only thing that matters, and who would step in the ring while giving their opponent a potential advantage? On top of that, it is a big money business. And whenever money is involved, people will do anything to win..... human nature. Evander Holyfield used (uses?) them. Does that take anything away from his career, especially knowing that most of his opponents probably did the same, only didn't get caught? James Toney dito.


As far as the health risk of steroid use, i think a lot of people exaggerate that as well, partially because people (rightfully) don't like the idea that a pill makes you look like Schwarzenegger, eliminating any genetic advantage that you'd normally have. Most of the health problems become a factor when the user is addicted or over-doses. Which you can say about pretty much any substance or food.

The idea that lifters/boxers/amateur users (who make up 90%, by the way) are dropping like flies 10 years after use is unsubstantiated and has never been shown in research, but people like to believe it because "those cheaters get what they deserve". There are well-known cases like that freak Valentino and for instance former George Foreman KO victim whose lifes has been destroyed by steroid abuse, but that was exactly that: abuse. Being overweight is a problem that literally causes thousands of times more health issues not to mention the psychological damage, but no one will stop you from eating humongous amounts of Big Mac's.

And let's be honest here - professional boxing with all the sparring included, is a MUCH bigger health risk than any of all steroid side effects multiplied by ten. As much as i'd hate to say it: professional boxing is not just a health damage risk - it's almost a health damage guarantee. You say that steroid use makes this only worse because of improved physical capabilities, but i'd like to turn that around. The fights during which the risks are highest is when one is outclassed for a long period of time. This is going through a boxer's mind as well. And he knows that his opponent probably uses steroids. Do you think he'll choose moral over health, victory and money? I know that Holyfield praises God whenever he can, but he also conceived non-wedlock children whenever he can, so i don't think he'll be riding the moral horse.

The damage during a fight is when it becomes lopsided and the referee/corner are too stupid to stop it (which, after 100+ years, still happens frequently), not because their opponent is injecting steroids, had a good, frequent training, studied his opponent's film, or any other "unfair" advantage (if only one of them chooses to use it).


Now, on a personal, amateur, level i despise steroids, but you have to be realistic about the circumstances and what's at stake at pro level, and for that reason, i don't think Holyfield or Toney's careers become void because they used steroids. Steroids don't make fighters.


p.s. have you seen the documentary Bigger Stronger Faster (2008) ?

[red cobra]

My immediate thought was Marvin Hagler, who showed loyalty and class by staying with the Petronelli brothers throughout his career.

[Stonehands89]

I think you're overreacting.
I'd call it righteous indignation -not towards you personally but towards what your views suggest in my mind. I see less difference between using steroids and putting a bolt in your glove than I do between using steroids and hitting low.

I do not think that you are fully recognizing the real danger of stepping into the ring against a fighter with steroid-enhanced power and speed.
I know you were exaggerating there, but if power really doubled, then Tyson's would've grown like toads since the 70's, but they didn't. It is likely that many boxers have already been using them since at least then and the 1900's style you speak of is nowhere to be found. And removing the stuffing from gloves is an entirely separate issue.
I said "if" steroid-use becomes prevalent among boxers. I don't believe it has. You may believe that it has, but neither of us have any idea of who was on it, when, and during what fights. Ezzard's point about the anarchic state of enforcement among the governing bodies is true. And that article is disturbing. If it's true, would you re-evaluate Jones' prime? Jones reluctance to really mix it up may not have been due to his worry about ending up like McClellan... it may have also been because he didn't want to have a ring death on his conscience... or perhaps it was both. If he was juiced when he fought Paz et al., he was lucky not to have killed anyone. Many including me have described Jones' speed and power as almost supernatural. If it was anything more than natural then I think he's a coward and a cheater. And I'd sent Tarver a medal.

I admire your moral stance, but for athletes, winning is the only thing that matters, and who would step in the ring while giving their opponent a potential advantage?
I hate to toot horns but I've stepped into the ring countless times against professionals ranging from the WW to HW and was at a distinct disadvantage against anyone over middleweight. For me, and every fighter I've ever met, we box because of the risk, not to participate in some shady shenanigans to gain unfair advantages to guarantee a "win" -it's about the thrill of battle, because winning by cheating isn't winning, it's cheating. It's about your reputation, and self respect. Boxers are alone in there with their thoughts, and the thought of leaving a ring knowing that you hurt a fellow boxer is hard enough. I suspect that far fewer than you theorize would be okay after putting a fellow boxer in a coma, knowing that they went in there juiced up.

I never, nor have ever heard it said by another fighter anything approaching the idea of "I better do steroids because the other guy may be doing them." That kind of speculation is a thinly veiled excuse to gain an unfair advantage. If as many fighters thought like that as you suppose, then Panama Lewis would have legions with him, as would Luis Resto (who was, like countless boxers, a relatively light hitter). Winning isn't everything -fighting well and honorably is. Again, Arguellos outnumber Tysons in boxing. Thank God.

Codes of honor develop in battle more so than it does in sports... and I'd consider boxing more battle than sport.

On top of that, it is a big money business. And whenever money is involved, people will do anything to win..... human nature. Evander Holyfield used (uses?) them. Does that take anything away from his career, especially knowing that most of his opponents probably did the same, only didn't get caught? James Toney dito.
Yes, there is far more temptation to use drugs at the upper level. I myself wasn't thinking about fame and celebrity and most guys I sparred and knew weren't either... they were just trying to eat and practice something that they loved and that defined them. But the superstars have at least as much temptation to use the steroids as aging starlets do in getting face-lifts and botox.

As per Holyfield: Let's say he used them since 1988, and they were part of his regiment to become a HW. I would absolutely support his being banned from the HoF and friggin excommunicated from whatever church he's in. I'd erase his name from my HW list of ATGs... because we would have no idea what his rate of success would have been sans performance enhancing drugs.

Toney: I suspect that he juiced because of a little fear about facing the big boys. He's still great because of what he did between 160 and 190. Unless he was on them during his whole career. If he was then, same goes for him.

An ethical assertion: We cannot excuse a man caught doing steriods because he believed that his opponent might have been on steroids. One is certain, the other is speculative. Nor should we excuse him even if his opponent was on steroids. Both should be suffer the consequences.

As far as the health risk of steroid use, i think a lot of people exaggerate that as well, partially because people (rightfully) don't like the idea that a pill makes you look like Schwarzenegger, eliminating any genetic advantage that you'd normally have. Most of the health problems become a factor when the user is addicted or over-doses. Which you can say about pretty much any substance or food.

The idea that lifters/boxers/amateur users (who make up 90%, by the way) are dropping like flies 10 years after use is unsubstantiated and has never been shown in research, but people like to believe it because "those cheaters get what they deserve". There are well-known cases like that freak Valentino and for instance former George Foreman KO victim whose lifes has been destroyed by steroid abuse, but that was exactly that: abuse. Being overweight is a problem that literally causes thousands of times more health issues not to mention the psychological damage, but no one will stop you from eating humongous amounts of Big Mac's.
Agreed. Well said. I have no opinion about steroid use per se, except that it is stupid because there are undetermined health risks involved (like shrinking scrotums) --even though I am adamant about boxers suffering consequences for use that is both heavy and certain. And that is due to respect for boxers and the sport itself. What's more, I thnk that it's easier to test in boxing and keep it clean and God knows we need that!

And let's be honest here - professional boxing with all the sparring included, is a MUCH bigger health risk than any of all steroid side effects multiplied by ten. As much as i'd hate to say it: professional boxing is not just a health damage risk - it's almost a health damage guarantee.
Very true. (I got lucky. I have floaters in my vision, a deviated septum, and scars around my eyes. That's it.)

You say that steroid use makes this only worse because of improved physical capabilities, but i'd like to turn that around. The fights during which the risks are highest is when one is outclassed for a long period of time. This is going through a boxer's mind as well. And he knows that his opponent probably uses steroids. Do you think he'll choose moral over health, victory and money?
"My life and my honor flow as one. Take my honor from me and my life is done." ~ Spencer

I know that Holyfield praises God whenever he can, but he also conceived non-wedlock children whenever he can, so i don't think he'll be riding the moral horse.
I will refrain from a theological discourse about Christianity, specifically the doctrine of fallen man and the universality and redundancy of sin. Suffice it to say that extending one's hand to God (be it in public or private) should not invite catcalls when that hand proves itself still human and therefore still prone to sin.

The damage during a fight is when it becomes lopsided and the referee/corner are too stupid to stop it (which, after 100+ years, still happens frequently), not because their opponent is injecting steroids, had a good, frequent training, studied his opponent's film, or any other "unfair" advantage (if only one of them chooses to use it).

Now, on a personal, amateur, level i despise steroids, but you have to be realistic about the circumstances and what's at stake at pro level, and for that reason, i don't think Holyfield or Toney's careers become void because they used steroids. Steroids don't make fighters.
Your well-crafted defense of your case had me worried. I thought you might be on them yourself! Glad to see that you aren't!

Steroids, at the very least, clouds the issue and prevent us from measuring a fighter's true and actual ability. At worst, it injects the sport of boxing with more danger and therefore more brutality... how much it does this is unimportant. It is a poison in the sport -literally and figuratively.

p.s. have you seen the documentary Bigger Stronger Faster (2008) ?
Negative. Would you recommend it?

[Robbi]

Keep it up with the quality sparring on here guys. :good

[DamonD]

Man, I think Chris is roiding. He's typing so quickly.

[ChrisPontius]

Man, I think Chris is roiding. He's typing so quickly.

I was gassed after the first paragraph, but spat the last ones out on pure typing instinct and guts.




Stonehands: i don't think there's much left to discuss, other than that we have a disagreement.

I would like to respond to one point though: you state that Toney's work between 160 and 190 probably is legit, and i agree. But what devastating increase in power and stamina did you see during his work over 190lbs when he was on steroids? You might say Toney was overweight, fine, but what about Chris Byrd or Roy Jones? Now, Byrd has never been caught using steroids, but neither was Jones at heavyweight. But did either of them have spectacular power at heavyweight? I do think Holyfield's power increased somewhat from 1993 on - when he gained 12 pounds of muscle without any fat. He knocked down very durable men like Bowe, Mercer and Tyson, while before that, he couldn't dent geriatric versions of Foreman, Holmes as well as Thomas and Dokes, all of whom he unleashed flush landing combinations on.

So my question is, this increase in power to the extent that it becomes dangerous a la Panama Lewis debacles - where is your proof? Outside of Holyfield, i don't see any. And even in Holyfield's case - he was and still isn't consider a big puncher, just a good one.





On the documentary Bigger Faster Stronger, i can definitely recommend it. Do take it for what it is, just like my opinion: a subjective outline, and while some research is involved, you can always go to the conclusion you feel is right by selecting and ignoring the right data.

Be that as it may, it does show both sides and takes a relatively neutral point of view, although i thought it was a little bit pro-steroids. But their main point is that a lot of the health risk claims are wildly exaggerated by most of the people, and i think rightfully so (this is not talking about the extra health risk in boxing that you mentioned earlier, by the way, just the side effects from taking them etc).

Here is the link on IMDB: [Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Stonehands89]

Stonehands: i don't think there's much left to discuss, other than that we have a disagreement.
We usually do disagree --but I'm happy we do because you're shaping up to me my Ali -or Frazier- depending on your stance! You keep my powder dry.


I would like to respond to one point though: you state that Toney's work between 160 and 190 probably is legit, and i agree. But what devastating increase in power and stamina did you see during his work over 190lbs when he was on steroids? You might say Toney was overweight, fine, but what about Chris Byrd or Roy Jones? Now, Byrd has never been caught using steroids, but neither was Jones at heavyweight. But did either of them have spectacular power at heavyweight? I do think Holyfield's power increased somewhat from 1993 on - when he gained 12 pounds of muscle without any fat. He knocked down very durable men like Bowe, Mercer and Tyson, while before that, he couldn't dent geriatric versions of Foreman, Holmes as well as Thomas and Dokes, all of whom he unleashed flush landing combinations on.
That's some interesting evidence on Holyfield.... and it gives one pause. It also supports my argument more than yours, correct? Namely that Holyfield hit harder after 1993 when he may have started using.

As per Toney. The fact that he was a natural MW (with an undiagnosed but argue a clinical eating disorder) fighting HWs will obviously limit the advantage of steroids. Also, I'm not sure that he used them more than once for the Ruiz fight. Who knows.

Jones' hurt Ruiz early. But again, Jones tends to lay off. Had he had a killer instinct, who knows.


So my question is, this increase in power to the extent that it becomes dangerous a la Panama Lewis debacles - where is your proof? Outside of Holyfield, i don't see any. And even in Holyfield's case - he was and still isn't consider a big puncher, just a good one.
I have no proof because the whole thing is shrouded in mystery. And even if it wasn't there are a ton of intervening variables that are in the way -skill, size, of both guys, etc.


On the documentary Bigger Faster Stronger, i can definitely recommend it. Do take it for what it is, just like my opinion: a subjective outline, and while some research is involved, you can always go to the conclusion you feel is right by selecting and ignoring the right data.

Be that as it may, it does show both sides and takes a relatively neutral point of view, although i thought it was a little bit pro-steroids. But their main point is that a lot of the health risk claims are wildly exaggerated by most of the people, and i think rightfully so (this is not talking about the extra health risk in boxing that you mentioned earlier, by the way, just the side effects from taking them etc).

Here is the link on IMDB: [Only registered and activated users can see links]
I think I may have seen clips of that on cable, but I will be sure to check it out at some point.

Thanks.