Jimmy Young Replaces Ali In Zaire...

[Russell]

A prime, motivated Young replaces Ali that hot night in Zaire.

What happens? Young managed to stop Foreman from exhaustion. Ali did something similar in a far more explosive manner.

Could Young pull off a even bigger upset here?

[mcvey]

A prime, motivated Young replaces Ali that hot night in Zaire.

What happens? Young managed to stop Foreman from exhaustion. Ali did something similar in a far more explosive manner.

Could Young pull off a even bigger upset here?
Young did NOT stop Foreman ,after being dropped and nearly stopped he caught an incoming Foreman ,George missed a right uppercut,Young countered ,with Foreman coming in the velocity was emphasised ,Foreman went down on one knee for a count of 1,got up and resumed chasing "MR Safety First Young",but lost the decision.
Ali beat George by laying on the ropes blocking as many punches as he could and absorbing those he couldn't,and countering with staight quick shots ,THIS IS NOT JIMMY YOUNG,NO WAY does Young try those tactics.He had less power than Ali ,and less durability .

[Russell]

Ugh, I meant dropped.

Typo.

[mcvey]

Ugh, I meant dropped.

Typo.
Easy done!

[younghypnotiq]

no way does young survive the on comming forman the way ali did to stop him ..foreman would cut the ring off and pound away until the ref pulled him off a bloody and battered young ... let us not forget ...the foreman young got was foreman 2.0 .. forman 1.0 which ali got was a total different beast

[The Kurgan]

Foreman never worked how to cut off the ring without being exposed to both counter and lead shots. Jimmy Young, with his educated footwork, could move around with minimal expenditure of energy in a way that Ali couldn't.

The only differences in comparison to the 1977 fight would be that Foreman would be more aggressive and thus beaten up more by counter-punches during the early rounds; Young would also probably stop Foreman in the later rounds. He had Foreman's number and that's all there is to it.

[AREA 53]

With Foremans two previous fights being the crushings of Frazier and Norton - Jimmy would not have had the same confidence going in, that he did meeting a Foreman who had lost to Ali, and almost got Ambushed by Lyle, and was to a degree going through the motions, Against the Ali version of Foreman I suspect Jimmy would of felt he was going to a public execution, his own and would not feel he could cheat the Hangman, I think when George catches Jimmy, Jimmy will go the way of Frazier and Norton, he might Run/last a round Longer, Also George would not be destracted by Ali'Esque Banter, or Bag of Tricks, so George would remain fully Focused on destruction

Having it previous confirmed by Ali and Lyle that George was not the complete and utter destroyer of men was a very big Advantage to Jimmy when they met. it revealed a Blueprint could be adopted and adapted.

[ChrisPontius]

no way does young survive the on comming forman the way ali did to stop him ..foreman would cut the ring off and pound away until the ref pulled him off a bloody and battered young ... let us not forget ...the foreman young got was foreman 2.0 .. forman 1.0 which ali got was a total different beast

Wrong alias. :lol:





I'd pick Young to beat that version of Foreman as well.

Anyone who watches the tape will see that Foreman always was terribly flawed in his technique and a skillful, durable boxer like Young is perfect to capitalize on it. It won't be as spectacular or dramatic as what Ali did, but he'll win nonetheless, perhaps by stoppage if Foreman goes wild.

[Bokaj]

I think the humid heat, small ring and soggy canvas favours Foreman. He catches up with Young and finishes him.

If Shavers could, then Foreman at his best could as well, especially considering the circumstances mentioned above.

[Addie]

Say what you like about Foreman's flaws, and they are there, but he wasn't a same fighter after Zaire. I would pick a confident and prime Foreman against a vast majority of Heavyweight's including Young.

[Russell]

I think the humid heat, small ring and soggy canvas favours Foreman. He catches up with Young and finishes him.

If Shavers could, then Foreman at his best could as well, especially considering the circumstances mentioned above.

How in the hell does the heat favor Foreman? It's one of the biggest things that doomed him in Zaire. Young already proved he could get Foreman falling over from exhaustion without heat stroke level temps in a 15 round fight.

[guilalah]

Well, I don't think it's a matter of Young always having to stay away from Foreman. It's that Young gets off a punch or two, then gets control of George's arms and ties him up. Young's a harder guy to do the shove against than was Frazier. Also, the referee for the Young-Foreman fight was pretty strict with George. Then, too, George seemed to want to 'box' that night, and seemed not to try to use much of his (possible?) strength advantage.

Anyways, against Zaire George, I don't really know how it would have turned out -- different referee, a somewhat different George ..........

btw, if Johnson and George came along at the same time, I'd favor Papa Jack 3 outta 4.

[mcvey]

Wrong alias. :lol:





I'd pick Young to beat that version of Foreman as well.

Anyone who watches the tape will see that Foreman always was terribly flawed in his technique and a skillful, durable boxer like Young is perfect to capitalize on it. It won't be as spectacular or dramatic as what Ali did, but he'll win nonetheless, perhaps by stoppage if Foreman goes wild.
Lets not get too carried away here this is the Jimmy Young who lost decisions to Randy Neuman ,twice to 11 and 12 fight Ossie Ocasio,and drew with Billy Aird

[radianttwilight]

Foreman would've mauled him.

The irony about the Rumble in the Jungle is that George was probably at his best as far as cutting off the ring.... it's just that Ali didn't move like he (and everyone else) expected him to.

[mcvey]

Young wins it, just like he won in 1977. Foreman was a sucker for dancers. I would pick Corbett, Tunney and Tony Tucker to beat him as well.
Which dancers do you think made a sucker out of Foreman ? Given he had 81 fights and lost 5 ,3 of them when he was 42 to the reigning Champion,43 to a top contender,and 48 to a top contender,none of these were dancers . Ali beat Foreman by laying on the ropes and blocking as many as he could and absorbing the rest ,so which dancers made a sucker out of Foreman exactly? Young who was dropped in their fight and nearly kod in the 7th ? Please explain.

[Bokaj]

How in the hell does the heat favor Foreman? It's one of the biggest things that doomed him in Zaire. Young already proved he could get Foreman falling over from exhaustion without heat stroke level temps in a 15 round fight.

It makes it harder to move, and therefore harder for Young to keep away. You're right that it might well affect Foreman as well, but if you also put the small ring and the soggy ring in the equation, you have bad conditions for the man who wants to move.

[The Kurgan]

It makes it harder to move, and therefore harder for Young to keep away. You're right that it might well affect Foreman as well, but if you also put the small ring and the soggy ring in the equation, you have bad conditions for the man who wants to move.

True, although Young moved in a FAR more economical manner than Ali and had much better defensive skills from a stationary position. If you look at the Young-Foreman fight, Jimmy moves constantly but he rarely "dances".

It also wasn't exactly a cool night when Young humiliated Foreman.

[The Kurgan]

Lets not get too carried away here this is the Jimmy Young who lost decisions to Randy Neuman ,twice to 11 and 12 fight Ossie Ocasio,and drew with Billy Aird

We're assuming this is an on-form Young, I presume? One wouldn't hold Foreman's performance against Tommy Morrison against him in regard to this fight any more than one would hold a fat disinterested Young's performances against Ocasio against him. This is the problem with boxrec pugiology.

[Russell]

It makes it harder to move, and therefore harder for Young to keep away. You're right that it might well affect Foreman as well, but if you also put the small ring and the soggy ring in the equation, you have bad conditions for the man who wants to move.

Soggy canvas isn't going to make it any easier for George to get around either, not to mention the loose ropes that night in Zaire. As if he'd pin Young against them anyway.

[Russell]

We're assuming this is an on-form Young, I presume? One wouldn't hold Foreman's performance against Tommy Morrison against him in regard to this fight any more than one would hold a fat disinterested Young's performances against Ocasio against him. This is the problem with boxrec pugiology.

Morrison and his trainers actually watched and analyzed the Young fight to prepare for the Foreman fight. :lol:

[The Kurgan]

Young who was dropped in their fight and nearly kod in the 7th ? Please explain.

Have you seen Young-Foreman?

[The Kurgan]

Morrison and his trainers actually watched and analyzed the Young fight to prepare for the Foreman fight. :lol:

They'd have been better off analysing Foreman's daily diet and concluding "The key here is making sure Morrison is the opposite of a fat bastard."

[Russell]

They'd have been better off analysing Foreman's daily diet and concluding "The key here is making sure Morrison is the opposite of a fat bastard."

Hey, can't blame how he looked or how he eat. He got things done in there.

[mcvey]

Oh I see so a 220lbs 30 year old Young coming of a split dec loss to Norton is fat and disinterested,I suppose a 230lbs 34 year old Ali was in prime shape when he u deckd Young? No I havent seen Young Foreman I just guessed what happened .:patsch

[mcvey]

Have you seen Young-Foreman?
Have you see Young fight at all?" He probably stops Foreman".!!!

[Bokaj]

True, although Young moved in a FAR more economical manner than Ali and had much better defensive skills from a stationary position. If you look at the Young-Foreman fight, Jimmy moves constantly but he rarely "dances".

It also wasn't exactly a cool night when Young humiliated Foreman.

No, but the conditions in Zaire was the worst possible for moving in any way. Also don't forget that Foreman came close to KO'ing Young in 1977. The conditions in Zaire, along with a more focussed and confident Foreman, might just make the difference.

[Bokaj]

Soggy canvas isn't going to make it any easier for George to get around either, not to mention the loose ropes that night in Zaire. As if he'd pin Young against them anyway.

It's Young who wants to keep the distance, so the soggy canvas makes it harder for him. Also, I have no problem believing that the Foreman who had been drilled to cut the ring off in Zaire would be able to do so against Young in that small ring.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Young wins it, just like he won in 1977. Foreman was a sucker for dancers. I would pick Corbett, Tunney and Tony Tucker to beat him as well.


Tony Tucker. :lol:

[ChrisPontius]

Lets not get too carried away here this is the Jimmy Young who lost decisions to Randy Neuman ,twice to 11 and 12 fight Ossie Ocasio,and drew with Billy Aird

Young had a very short prime (courtesy of heated Philly sparring sessions), but when he hit it, he was great and all of those losses happened either before or after it.

And Foreman didn't deck Young in the 7th or any round. It was Foreman himself who was down, which among others leads me to question his durability.

[Bokaj]

Young had a very short prime (courtesy of heated Philly sparring sessions), but when he hit it, he was great and all of those losses happened either before or after it.

And Foreman didn't deck Young in the 7th or any round. It was Foreman himself who was down, which among others leads me to question his durability.

Wasn't he in his prime when Shavers KO'd him, though?

[My dinner with Conteh]

Wasn't he in his prime when Shavers KO'd him, though?

Difficult to say mate but not likely. I think it was the Shavers rematch that gave him the confidence, culminating in an easy points win over Lyle, who was due (and received despite the loss) hit title shot- then Jimmy went on a great run of impressive fights.

[My dinner with Conteh]

And Foreman didn't deck Young in the 7th or any round. It was Foreman himself who was down, which among others leads me to question his durability.


True, Young wasn't decked but he was badly wobbled a couple of times in that 7th. Foreman's knockdown was more an off-balance thing than anything. His gloves touched the canvas but that was it (it was official nonetheless), the right hand that caused the knockdown actually landed on George's shoulder/back when Foreman was charging in.

[The Kurgan]

Oh I see so a 220lbs 30 year old Young coming of a split dec loss to Norton is fat and disinterested,I suppose a 230lbs 34 year old Ali was in prime shape when he u deckd Young?

Did I say that? How well Young did against boxers like Ali, Neumann and Ocasio is irrelevant towards how well he'd do against Foreman. Young-Foreman is a more relevant fight and Young dominated him, arguably winning every round except the 7th. Young also, when he was focused, beat big punching heavyweights. His chin and skill tended to negated their power and strength.

No I havent seen Young Foreman I just guessed what happened .:patsch

I assumed you hadn't seen it considering your facts about the fight were wrong.

[The Kurgan]

It's Young who wants to keep the distance, so the soggy canvas makes it harder for him.

Young also did very well at close range against Foreman though. In fact, most of his best punches against Foreman were short counters that were thrown when Foreman didn't have space to throw. Foreman, like most sluggers, was a strictly mid-range boxer. That's a very difficult requirement to fulfill against a boxer with ATG footwork like Young.

Also, I have no problem believing that the Foreman who had been drilled to cut the ring off in Zaire would be able to do so against Young in that small ring.

If you look at Foreman-Young, it's not cutting off the ring that is his problem: it's cutting off the ring and being able to land punches without missing and getting hit with perfect counter-punches. All Young needed to do was to keep moving just slightly so that Foreman could never set his feet in the way he liked to do, so Foreman's punches generally were just arm punches. Foreman's power was all about his feet: when he set them properly he could turn the toughest boxers into yo-yos; when he wasn't properly set he was a decent but not big puncher.

That's why Young didn't need to dance with Foreman. Jumping around the ring like Ali did in the 1rst round in Zaire was a waste of energy. Ali didn't have the footwork skills that Young did: he was fast and skillful but not as skilled as Young could be when he was "on". To control the distance in the way Young did is extremely difficult in terms of skill, but takes a lot less effort than either staying against the ropes or dancing.

[JohnThomas1]

I like Foreman to win via KO. Two big mental points are the key here.

1. Foreman has never been beaten and still has the mental edge i believe was oh so important to him first career.

2. Young has the mental baggage of Foreman decimating both Frazier and Norton in frightening fashion and cannot draw any mental assurance from Ali whupping George's ass.

Basically George doesn't believe he can be beaten, and Young has sure never seen anything to the contrary.

:good

[JohnThomas1]

Young also did very well at close range against Foreman though. In fact, most of his best punches against Foreman were short counters that were thrown when Foreman didn't have space to throw. Foreman, like most sluggers, was a strictly mid-range boxer. That's a very difficult requirement to fulfill against a boxer with ATG footwork like Young.



If you look at Foreman-Young, it's not cutting off the ring that is his problem: it's cutting off the ring and being able to land punches without missing and getting hit with perfect counter-punches. All Young needed to do was to keep moving just slightly so that Foreman could never set his feet in the way he liked to do, so Foreman's punches generally were just arm punches. Foreman's power was all about his feet: when he set them properly he could turn the toughest boxers into yo-yos; when he wasn't properly set he was a decent but not big puncher.

That's why Young didn't need to dance with Foreman. Jumping around the ring like Ali did in the 1rst round in Zaire was a waste of energy. Ali didn't have the footwork skills that Young did: he was fast and skillful but not as skilled as Young could be when he was "on". To control the distance in the way Young did is extremely difficult in terms of skill, but takes a lot less effort than either staying against the ropes or dancing.

Go away Kurgan. You're the last peep i want debating vs me.

[My dinner with Conteh]

He had Foreman's number and that's all there is to it.


If he had his number he wouldn't have suffered a near stoppage in the 7th. Having someone's number is basically never being in any trouble against them whatsoever, like, say, Foster vs Tiger. I think if 1973 Foreman managed to tag Jimmy like he did then he'd have finished it, especially if it had come earlier, although style-wise Young always has a good chance of victory.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I like Foreman to win via KO. Two big mental points are the key here.

1. Foreman has never been beaten and still has the mental edge i believe was oh so important to him first career.

2. Young has the mental baggage of Foreman decimating both Frazier and Norton in frightening fashion and cannot draw any mental assurance from Ali whupping George's ass.

Basically George doesn't believe he can be beaten, and Young has sure never seen anything to the contrary.

:good


That what I was talking about the other day with Joe Frasier, in as much as he'd lost that air of invincibilty by the time he fought Mohammad Ali again.

[Bokaj]

If you look at Foreman-Young, it's not cutting off the ring that is his problem: it's cutting off the ring and being able to land punches without missing and getting hit with perfect counter-punches. All Young needed to do was to keep moving just slightly so that Foreman could never set his feet in the way he liked to do, so Foreman's punches generally were just arm punches. Foreman's power was all about his feet: when he set them properly he could turn the toughest boxers into yo-yos; when he wasn't properly set he was a decent but not big puncher.

That's why Young didn't need to dance with Foreman. Jumping around the ring like Ali did in the 1rst round in Zaire was a waste of energy. Ali didn't have the footwork skills that Young did: he was fast and skillful but not as skilled as Young could be when he was "on". To control the distance in the way Young did is extremely difficult in terms of skill, but takes a lot less effort than either staying against the ropes or dancing.

Still: If you're the defensive fighter you want as much space as possible and to be able to move with as little effort as possible. Otherwise it favours the guy that would rather see that you both stood still in front of each other. For me that's pretty obvious.

I like to move when I sparr, and if I get too choose whether to fight a stronger, more powerful opponent in a big ring with a fast canvas or a small one with slow canvas, the choice is an easy one.

[The Kurgan]

Still: If you're the defensive fighter you want as much space as possible and to be able to move with as little effort as possible. Otherwise it favours the guy that would rather see that you both stood still in front of each other. For me that's pretty obvious.

Not necessarily. James Toney is a defensive boxer who is at his best at close range, for example.

I like to move when I sparr, and if I get too choose whether to fight a stronger, more powerful opponent in a big ring with a fast canvas or a small one with slow canvas, the choice is an easy one.

It all depends on (a) how you want to move and (b) how much room you need to do that. Obviously, a mover like Young would prefer a mover's ring, but it isn't as essential when you have a boxer as skilled as Young who wasn't a "dancer". Plus, the ring in Zaire wasn't exactly a phone-booth type ring, though given the way Ali fought after round one it might as well have been.

[The Kurgan]

If he had his number he wouldn't have suffered a near stoppage in the 7th. Having someone's number is basically never being in any trouble against them whatsoever, like, say, Foster vs Tiger. I think if 1973 Foreman managed to tag Jimmy like he did then he'd have finished it, especially if it had come earlier, although style-wise Young always has a good chance of victory.

I don't think so. If nothing else, wouldn't a 1974 Foreman (who had such an image of being a destroyer) have encouraged Young to be that much more cautious? If you win 11 out of 12 rounds, then you have the other man's number.

Also, let's not exaggerate how hurt Young was in the 7th round. He was nearly KNOCKED DOWN, not nearly KNOCKED OUT. Foreman staggered Young once and didn't land with any big clean punches after that.

[The Kurgan]

Go away Kurgan. You're the last peep i want debating vs me.

:rofl

My daily life is almost entirely composed of debating in essays, tutorials and conversations, so I get a fair bit of practice.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I don't think so. If nothing else, wouldn't a 1974 Foreman (who had such an image of being a destroyer) have encouraged Young to be that much more cautious? If you win 11 out of 12 rounds, then you have the other man's number.

Also, let's not exaggerate how hurt Young was in the 7th round. He was nearly KNOCKED DOWN, not nearly KNOCKED OUT. Foreman staggered Young once and didn't land with any big clean punches after that.


Pre-Zaire Foreman was better than the 77 version though. He even started neglecting the jab when he became champ when he felt he could steamroll opponents. Then he seemed to do away with it all together- and he had one of the bets jabs in heavyweight history in his pomp. Also, he staggered Young twice, and he did land after the initial blow, a few times. Foreman clearly wasn't at his best in 1977- so Young "having his number" at all times is bullshit. Although I agree Jimmy has a decent chance nonetheless.

[JohnThomas1]

That what I was talking about the other day with Joe Frasier, in as much as he'd lost that air of invincibilty by the time he fought Mohammad Ali again.

Yes but if i read you right i'd hardly say he ever had it anywhere NEAR to the extent Foreman had. Foreman was considered by many to be invincible, as had Liston before him at a certaij stage. Isn't it incredible that the same man would defrock BOTH of them.

[JohnThomas1]

:rofl

My daily life is almost entirely composed of debating in essays, tutorials and conversations, so I get a fair bit of practice.

Why am i not fukking surprised

:lol:

[Bokaj]

It all depends on (a) how you want to move and (b) how much room you need to do that. Obviously, a mover like Young would prefer a mover's ring, but it isn't as essential when you have a boxer as skilled as Young who wasn't a "dancer". Plus, the ring in Zaire wasn't exactly a phone-booth type ring, though given the way Ali fought after round one it might as well have been.

While it's not esssential more space is always preferrable when you're backpedalling. The same goes for a fast canvas. There's just no getting away from this.

For me, this coupled with Foreman's greater confidence and killer instinct in Zaire probably would have made the difference. Can never say for sure, though.

And that's just about what I have to say about this.

[My dinner with Conteh]

One wouldn't hold Foreman's performance against Tommy Morrison against him in regard to this fight any more than one would hold a fat disinterested Young's performances against Ocasio against him.



Oh so Young's fat and disinterested when he lost, I see? When the heck did someone like him have the time or money to be 'fat and disinterested' anyway? It's not as if he was raking in millions and his motivation was at an all-time low. But Foreman, denied a title shot throughout 1976, promised one in 77, taking one or two warm up fights beforehand, and probably more past his best weight than Young was vs Ocasio, was in his absolute mental and physical prime was he? :huh

[My dinner with Conteh]

Yes but if i read you right i'd hardly say he ever had it anywhere NEAR to the extent Foreman had. Foreman was considered by many to be invincible, as had Liston before him at a certaij stage. Isn't it incredible that the same man would defrock BOTH of them.


Yes. He was more so than Frasier I'd agree and on par with Liston in that respect. However, Joe was very much regarded as a man who loved the heat of combat, who actually welcomed being 'hit'. All-of-a-sudden, he thinks "fuck I don't think I want to be hit like that again" perhaps.


Right, I'm off to feed the Larry Holmes's in the park with the kids. :hi:

[JohnThomas1]

Yes. He was more so than Frasier I'd agree and on par with Liston in that respect. However, Joe was very much regarded as a man who loved the heat of combat, who actually welcomed being 'hit'. All-of-a-sudden, he thinks "fuck I don't think I want to be hit like that again" perhaps.


Right, I'm off to feed the Larry Holmes's in the park with the kids. :hi:

:lol: Careful he don't bite ya!

Joe loved being hit vs Foster and co, but being hit vs Foreman and say a Liston is another matter altogether. Surely NOBODY would wecome that, well excepting Ali maybe :lol:

[Bummy Davis]

Wrong alias. :lol:





I'd pick Young to beat that version of Foreman as well.

Anyone who watches the tape will see that Foreman always was terribly flawed in his technique and a skillful, durable boxer like Young is perfect to capitalize on it. It won't be as spectacular or dramatic as what Ali did, but he'll win nonetheless, perhaps by stoppage if Foreman goes wild.



I feel the same way...Young would win minus the rope-a-dope..less dramatic but the wrong style for George and his wide swings

[The Kurgan]

Pre-Zaire Foreman was better than the 77 version though. He even started neglecting the jab when he became champ when he felt he could steamroll opponents. Then he seemed to do away with it all together- and he had one of the bets jabs in heavyweight history in his pomp.

Isn't it interesting though, that Foreman used his jab a lot in his post-comeback career, but not against Young? I think that had to do with the fact that, when he did jab, it was ineffective and opened him up to counter shots. Prime or not prime, Foreman was not good at being in a good position after punching, which is why Ali was able to land at such ludicriously high percentage rates in the Rumble even when Ali was himself stationary and thus unable to work the angles.

It's also interesting to compare Foreman-Young with Foreman's other comeback fights. Against Frazier, Foreman was able to put up a VERY high workrate and land a lot of punches even though Frazier was doing a relatively good job of being evasive. Foreman also was able to throw a very long series of power shots at the end of the LeDoux and Denis fights. Against Young, though, he couldn't even get into a position to do that for most of the fight.

The claim that Foreman was not the same boxer after the Rumble is based on three things, which are in ascending order of the emphasis people tend to put on them: 1) his terrible performance in "Foreman Versus Five" where he looked mentally unstable; 2) his loss to Jimmy Young where he lost almost every round and 3) his general unstable mental condition in his personal life.

Now, 1) can hardly apply to the Young fight. It was still very close to the Rumble, but Foreman wouldn't fight Young for another two years, during which he had some of his best wins and a long series of knockouts against very tough boxers. Foreman looked much better in all of his legitimate comeback fights than in Foreman Versus Five.

3) cannot be said to apply by default. Sugar Ray Robinson was a wife-beating prick during much of his career. Carlos Monzon was a fully fledged sociopath. Ali, while scoring some of his career defining wins, had a sexual and marital life the likes of which usually are only found in cheesy American elite soaps-operas: just look at the background to the Thrilla In Manilla, for instance. Just because Foreman was sleeping with four or five women a day in early 1977 and was filled with a burning desire to kill Muhammad Ali, does not mean he wasn't mentally still a destroyer. If nothing else, one has to explain why he looked no worse in his other comeback fights; if Young set him off mentally in an unusual way in 1977, then why not in 1974?

So 2) seems to be the only real reason to say that Foreman was a greatly diminished boxer, but in the absence of any other evidence, doesn't it just suggest that Young's style was perfect to beat Foreman? Especially considering, in general, boxers like Young tend to beat sluggers like Foreman. The glove matches the hand, so to speak, so without any other good reason it's fair to say that Young just happened to carry Foreman's details around in his address book.

Was Foreman's standing in the boxing world seriously reduced after the Rumble? Sure. Was his talent and mentality reduced? I don't think so. Foreman learnt a lot of new skills from Gil Clancy, one of boxing's most learned scholars and most adept trainers. Foreman showed a fighting heart against Lyle that he wouldn't show again until the Holyfield match. Foreman dealt handily with a Frazier who fought the best strategy he possibly could, while Foreman used a high-workrate approach that it would be impossible for any boxer to pull off unless he was hungry. His performances against LeDoux and Denis were at least no worse than his wins against similar awkward determined boxers before his three title wins, all of which were against boxers incomparable with LeDoux or Denis.

The claim "Foreman was never the same again" might be a true description of his personal life after Zaire, although I expect he wasn't exactly a happy clean-living sort before then either. Foreman was an intensely gloomy depressed self-destructive mentally-unstable man BEFORE the Ali fight. Losing to Ali just gave him one more reason to be the man he'd always been before then. And while Foreman talks about not being able to sleep at night after the Ali fight, he also talks about being extremely paranoid BEFORE the Ali fight.

Also, he staggered Young twice, and he did land after the initial blow, a few times.

He landed a few punches, but they were arm punches. As I said, he didn't land any big clean punches. As in his prime, Foreman needed a stationary target in order to finish his man off, since it was only then that his (amazing) ability to position his feet in order to translate his pure physical strength into awesome power came into play.

When was the other time he staggered Young?

Foreman clearly wasn't at his best in 1977- so Young "having his number" at all times is bullshit.

Again, this is an axiom that people chuck around with no basis. It's like the "Ali never got hit in the 1960s" cheshnut. At the very least, we can say that Foreman was a slightly lesser boxer in the ring in 1977, in which case we can reasonably say that Young's dominant performance in 1977 would probably be downgraded to a closer decision in 1974. So Young might not win nearly every round, but he would win a clear-cut decision.

I tend to think, however, that the extreme height in Africa combined with Foreman being more aggressive would mean that Foreman would tire around the 11th to 13th round, leading to the possibility of him either quitting or getting knocked down and being unable to get up in the championship rounds. Those 3 extra championship rounds benefit Young, not Foreman.

[The Kurgan]

Oh so Young's fat and disinterested when he lost, I see?

Yep. He lost because he was fat and disinterested. Or against Ali, where he totally bottled it and didn't know what to do. Young's appaling performance against Ali has no relevance to Young-Foreman, though.

When the heck did someone like him have the time or money to be 'fat and disinterested' anyway? It's not as if he was raking in millions and his motivation was at an all-time low.

Young was never a real fan of fighting. That's why he adopted his cautious style, which was both a blessing and a curse. His motivation was always very patchy.

But Foreman, denied a title shot throughout 1976, promised one in 77, taking one or two warm up fights beforehand, and probably more past his best weight than Young was vs Ocasio, was in his absolute mental and physical prime was he? :huh

Would you agree that, in general, counter-punching boxers were tougher for Foreman that swarmers like Frazier and Norton? And punchers, when they were difficult (like Lyle) were difficult because they were good at landing counter-punches?

If so, why the hell would Foreman be any less than anxious when dealing with Young (the counter-punching boxer to end all counter-punching boxers) in a hot country with a title fight on the horizon?

[The Kurgan]

While it's not esssential more space is always preferrable when you're backpedalling. The same goes for a fast canvas. There's just no getting away from this.

For me, this coupled with Foreman's greater confidence and killer instinct in Zaire probably would have made the difference. Can never say for sure, though.

And that's just about what I have to say about this.

Fair enough. I think, however, that Foreman trying to be a killer against someone like Young is just going to get him into trouble. The best way to beat someone like Young, if you're a big puncher with an 82" reach and a height advantage, is to patiently press forward behind a constant but snappy (in terms of bringing the left hand back quickly) jab, then throwing BIG body punches whenever the opportunity was there. Then chances to stop Young, as Foreman found in the 7th, would present themselves far more often, since a tired boxer is always easier to find than a non-tired one.

The problem is, while there is certainly a strategy for Foreman to win this, I suspect a 1974 Foreman had neither the mindset nor the willingness to constantly fight in a technically sound way that would be required to pull such a strategy off. You don't KO an "on" Young by waiting to land one big combination, but by working constantly to make such an opportunity happen.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Yep. He lost because he was fat and disinterested. Or against Ali, where he totally bottled it and didn't know what to do. Young's appaling performance against Ali has no relevance to Young-Foreman, though.


Why he would lose interest in a fight where he was promised a shot at Holmes were he to win? It's not as if he'd been champ before either and had silk sheets to fart in if he lost anyway.



Young was never a real fan of fighting. That's why he adopted his cautious style, which was both a blessing and a curse. His motivation was always very patchy.


This sounds like the kind of spiel that usually belongs to Roberto Duran fans. So, when he was sparked by Shavers for example- was he not motivated? And if not, how do you know this?



Would you agree that, in general, counter-punching boxers were tougher for Foreman that swarmers like Frazier and Norton? And punchers, when they were difficult (like Lyle) were difficult because they were good at landing counter-punches?


Yes, definitely. I said earlier I give Young a good chance of beating any Foreman, but the version in 77 wasn't as good or as busy as the 1973 model, especially in the first half of a fight. And I think if the earlier model had him in trouble like in San Juan, he'd stop him.



If so, why the hell would Foreman be any less than anxious when dealing with Young (the counter-punching boxer to end all counter-punching boxers) in a hot country with a title fight on the horizon?


It's the same as Holmes nearly getting stopped, by a generally regarded non-puncher, like Snipes. He had one eye on the Cooney millions. Or, if you like, the same as Young vs Ocasio when he had one eye on Holmes. Either way, Young and Foreman weren't at their best.

[mcvey]

Did I say that? How well Young did against boxers like Ali, Neumann and Ocasio is irrelevant towards how well he'd do against Foreman. Young-Foreman is a more relevant fight and Young dominated him, arguably winning every round except the 7th. Young also, when he was focused, beat big punching heavyweights. His chin and skill tended to negated their power and strength.



I assumed you hadn't seen it considering your facts about the fight were wrong.
"I was asking God to help my soul,all he had to do was push me with his little finger " Jimmy Young, in a Sports Illustrated interview,discussing the seventh round against Foreman.

[heehoo]

The outcome would have been the same in my view. Young embarrassed Foreman.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Just because Foreman was sleeping with four or five women a day in early 1977 and was filled with a burning desire to kill Muhammad Ali, does not mean he wasn't mentally still a destroyer.


Well, it's hardly great preparation for fighting any top contender is it? George had signed a four-fight contract with one of the big US telly networks and fought less than two months after his last contest.


I don't think so. Foreman learnt a lot of new skills from Gil Clancy, one of boxing's most learned scholars and most adept trainers.


What did Foreman learn from Clancy exactly? Showing heart against Lyle is hardly a good example. He suggested using the jab more, but George only did that sparingly, and that was because of the fact that Foreman showed great promise with it in his younger days. But Foreman seemed to oft-ignore him anyway. It was Charlie Shipes that shaped Foreman's comeback and strategy (if we dare call it such) not Clancy, who was around for fight time and a few days before but that's about it.


The claim "Foreman was never the same again" might be a true description of his personal life after Zaire, although I expect he wasn't exactly a happy clean-living sort before then either. Foreman was an intensely gloomy depressed self-destructive mentally-unstable man BEFORE the Ali fight. Losing to Ali just gave him one more reason to be the man he'd always been before then. And while Foreman talks about not being able to sleep at night after the Ali fight, he also talks about being extremely paranoid BEFORE the Ali fight.



I agree with this, but this was 'Ali' we're talking here. And it was 'Ali' the personality, the bloke who virtually the world wanted to win in the other corner, not someone that had the style to diminish the popularity of heavyweight boxing. The magnitude of the event got to him- and well as Ali's blows of course.





When was the other time he staggered Young?



In the same round. Young nearly goes down in the centre of the ring. Young himself said he was in big trouble and thought he would be stopped.

[The Kurgan]

Why he would lose interest in a fight where he was promised a shot at Holmes were he to win? It's not as if he'd been champ before either and had silk sheets to fart in if he lost anyway.

This sounds like the kind of spiel that usually belongs to Roberto Duran fans. So, when he was sparked by Shavers for example- was he not motivated? And if not, how do you know this?

I'm not sure Young was EVER properly motivated. It's not that he was entirely unprofessional: he would work hard if he had to, but he never had the aggression of a warrior.

Of course, you can say that Ossie Ocasio was better than a 1977 George Foreman, but that's an unusual conclusion.

Yes, definitely. I said earlier I give Young a good chance of beating any Foreman, but the version in 77 wasn't anywhere near as good as the 1973 model, especially in the first half of a fight. And I think if the earlier model had him in trouble like in San Juan, he'd stop him.

How often do you think Foreman would be able to get Young in trouble? It is notable that he only caught Young with a big enough shot once in 12 rounds and even that wasn't the result of a stylistic weakness in Young: there's nothing about Young and Foreman that necessitates that Foreman is going to find plenty of left hooks to the temple.

Oddly enough, one factor I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned by the pro-Foreman crowd is the ref. The ref in the 1977 fight (Waldemar Schmitt I think) took a very tough line on rough-house tactics, while the ref in the Rumble gave Ali an open checkbook when it came to manhandling Foreman. It's impossible to know how that ref would react to Young, but most disliked him because of how cautiously he fought.

It's the same as Holmes nearly getting stopped, by a generally regarded non-puncher, like Snipes. He had one eye on the Cooney millions. Or, if you like, the same as Young vs Ocasio when he had one eye on Holmes. Either way, Young and Foreman weren't at their best.

Foreman was a much more consistent fighter than Young though, surely? Also, between 1974 and 1977, Foreman learnt and improved upon a lot of skills that would be vital to defeating Young, eg. feinting, head-movement and parrying the jab.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Re: Round 7:

He caught him a few times that round, twice with big shots and Young wobbles at first, after an exchange on the ropes and some holding Foreman lands again and Young nearly touches down, ring centre.



I agree with the point about referee Schmidtt. He did penalise George a lot, I think he deducted a point too. But he probably preferred a clean fight, which is fair enough I suppose.



I think Foreman starts the fight in San Juan a lot slower than he would in 73/74. Ok maybe he'd be even more open to Jimmy's counters but he'd be more willing to jab and work his win in in the first four or five stanzas.

[mcvey]

A prime, motivated Young replaces Ali that hot night in Zaire.

What happens? Young managed to stop Foreman from exhaustion. Ali did something similar in a far more explosive manner.

Could Young pull off a even bigger upset here?
More of the Sports Illustrated interview with Young. "When he caught me with that punch,I asked God to help my soul,George did not know it ,but while I was standing,I was out cold.He could have pushed me over with his little finger,how I survived the round I will never know".Young did NOT hit the floor as I said ,my memory was playing tricks ,but he was out of it, as he states.

[Russell]

Ali says he was out on his feet when he was against the ropes in Zaire as well. The vacant thousand yard stare in his eyes verifies it.

[mcvey]

Ali says he was out on his feet when he was against the ropes in Zaire as well. The vacant thousand yard stare in his eyes verifies it.
I think he was out of it in the 11th round in FOTC ,it must have taken all his will power to stay semi upright.

[AnthonyJ74]

Foreman never worked how to cut off the ring without being exposed to both counter and lead shots. Jimmy Young, with his educated footwork, could move around with minimal expenditure of energy in a way that Ali couldn't.

The only differences in comparison to the 1977 fight would be that Foreman would be more aggressive and thus beaten up more by counter-punches during the early rounds; Young would also probably stop Foreman in the later rounds. He had Foreman's number and that's all there is to it.

I think the Foreman that fought under the tutelage of Gil Clancy was an inferior fighter to the one that fought Ali and Frazier. Granted, he fought a little more technical, and his punches seemed to be placed better, but he was not the same tiger that mauled Frazier and tried to do the same to Ali. I think it's easy to dismiss Foreman on the basis of his fight with Ali. But what a lot of people fail to realize is that very few fighters would have been able to implement the strategy that Ali implemented that night. That Foreman was a monster, and he would have steamrolled a lot of good, solid heavyweights.

[JohnThomas1]

Just on this i'll throw a little something out there.

Clancy himself said Saddler and Moore i think it was had Foreman doing little beside hitting the heavybag and chopping wood in training for Ali. He said Foreman's punches sounded like a cannon on the bag, but got slower and wider and would have trouble hitting a moving target.

I've also heard George said Don King told him to drag out the Young fight a bit as his fights usually ended so fast. Haven't actually seen this written myself, but saw it posted sometime back from a decent poster.

[The Kurgan]

I think the Foreman that fought under the tutelage of Gil Clancy was an inferior fighter to the one that fought Ali and Frazier. Granted, he fought a little more technical, and his punches seemed to be placed better, but he was not the same tiger that mauled Frazier and tried to do the same to Ali. I think it's easy to dismiss Foreman on the basis of his fight with Ali. But what a lot of people fail to realize is that very few fighters would have been able to implement the strategy that Ali implemented that night. That Foreman was a monster, and he would have steamrolled a lot of good, solid heavyweights.

Isn't it notable that, unlike the first Frazier fight, Foreman's comeback opponents all fought with good boxing strategies?

[The Kurgan]

I've also heard George said Don King told him to drag out the Young fight a bit as his fights usually ended so fast. Haven't actually seen this written myself, but saw it posted sometime back from a decent poster.

I've heard that as well, but never with any sourcing at all (not even a quote from an unreliable source like George Foreman) which is really necessary when you have such an unusual conspiracy theory. At any rate, Don King was in control of George at the Rumble as well.

It also seems strange that Foreman would continue to adhere to this policy even when (a) he was losing the early part of the fight and (b) his association with Don King was at best a hinderance and at worst a total block against a fight with Ali.

[JohnThomas1]

I've heard that as well, but never with any sourcing at all (not even a quote from an unreliable source like George Foreman) which is really necessary when you have such an unusual conspiracy theory. At any rate, Don King was in control of George at the Rumble as well.

It also seems strange that Foreman would continue to adhere to this policy even when (a) he was losing the early part of the fight and (b) his association with Don King was at best a hinderance and at worst a total block against a fight with Ali.

Cheers Kurg, wasn't sure how widespread (or credible i guess) this may or may not be. I'll do some further digging.

Hey, is your moniker from The Highlander?

[The Kurgan]

Hey, is your moniker from The Highlander?

No, my father was from Russia. He was a hill.

[JohnThomas1]

No, my father was from Russia. He was a hill.

Ok, i've wondered for ages.

[AnthonyJ74]

I've heard that as well, but never with any sourcing at all (not even a quote from an unreliable source like George Foreman) which is really necessary when you have such an unusual conspiracy theory. At any rate, Don King was in control of George at the Rumble as well.

It also seems strange that Foreman would continue to adhere to this policy even when (a) he was losing the early part of the fight and (b) his association with Don King was at best a hinderance and at worst a total block against a fight with Ali.

George Foreman mentioned in his autobiography that Don King told him to extend the fight with Jimmy Young for a few rounds at least in order to get in as many commercials on the broadcast. Well, since the fight went twelve rounds, I guess it was mission accomplished.

[JohnThomas1]

George Foreman mentioned in his autobiography that Don King told him to extend the fight with Jimmy Young for a few rounds at least in order to get in as many commercials on the broadcast. Well, since the fight went twelve rounds, I guess it was mission accomplished.

Ahhhhh that's where it is.

Cheers.

[Nick Balsamo]

Foreman destroys Young, maybe kills him.

A prime Zaire version of Foreman could only be beat by Ali, who did it by pure heart and toughness. No one's tougher than Ali.

[ljj]

foreman by Ko within 3 rd's only Ali would of won that night in africa!

[timmers612]

Gil Clancey kind of goofed Foreman up for the Young fight and you really can't judge this go on that one. Gil, in wanting to shorten up George's hooks brought his feet closer togther but it was really bad judgment. George's uppercuts were now being thrown going sideways because of this unlike what we saw him do with Frazier, and George couldn't put his body behind his jab or right hands in the Young fight because of those too close together feet. The only time George could "let go" in the Young fight he was way off balance because of this but still came close to putting Jimmy in dream-land. George by clear stoppage if he had replaced Ali under Sadler.

[mcvey]

Just on this i'll throw a little something out there.

Clancy himself said Saddler and Moore i think it was had Foreman doing little beside hitting the heavybag and chopping wood in training for Ali. He said Foreman's punches sounded like a cannon on the bag, but got slower and wider and would have trouble hitting a moving target.

I've also heard George said Don King told him to drag out the Young fight a bit as his fights usually ended so fast. Haven't actually seen this written myself, but saw it posted sometime back from a decent poster.
It's in George's book.

[JohnThomas1]

It's in George's book.

Yes, Anthony posted it just above us. Interesting claims.

[Titan1]

Young would get kayoed in the fifth round by George.Foreman, this version, would be too much.

[Stevie G]

Foreman never worked how to cut off the ring without being exposed to both counter and lead shots. Jimmy Young, with his educated footwork, could move around with minimal expenditure of energy in a way that Ali couldn't.

The only differences in comparison to the 1977 fight would be that Foreman would be more aggressive and thus beaten up more by counter-punches during the early rounds; Young would also probably stop Foreman in the later rounds. He had Foreman's number and that's all there is to it.
Young could possibly have pulled it off in Zaire. I think it's slightly unlikely,as Foreman would be cutting off the ring,and backing Jimmy on to the ropes constantly. Jimmy's punches would n't have the same impact on George as Muhammad's did. I can see George surviving a few rocky moments and stopping Young late in the fight. 1977 San Juan was the right place and time for Jimmy to beat George.

[Flemo83]

I think a fighter like young would always give big george trouble no matter where or when

[red cobra]

Like Kurgan said, Young had Foreman's number.

[tommygun711]

Young by KO.

[MagnaNasakki]

I don't think Jimmy had quite gotten going into his good stuff at the time of the Rumble.

Foreman hadn't deterriorated like he did after Ali made a monkey of him.

In 1974, October, Young was just about to get his close win that was scored a draw over Shavers. He would then gain confidence and school Lyle, and go on a tear. On that tear, he had the stuff to beat this Foreman.

But not in October 1974.

Foreman TKO8.