DLH - Trinidad... "Whos is better all time" ?

[jaycuban]

DLH - Trinidad... "Whos is better all time" ?

Pick and explain why

[Relentless]

the 6 division world champ ofcourse.

[jaycuban]

for me is Trinidad

i think he beat fighters of the same or better quality than oscar did and did it in a more impresive way

[King Dan]

DLH.....was never outclassed by anyone.

[the_what]

Trinidad. Tito was the better Welterweight. One of the best of all time at 154. And had a better stint at Middleweight than DLH.

[kg0208]

DLH....we cannot forget what he did at 130-140, and I think he was a better WW than Tito whom I think he beat. Tito was better in the larger weight classes.

[Asterion]

Oscar

[ssabripo]

Tito, but it's close.

Tito got smacked by Hopkins and Wright, both lb4lb greats. DLH got smacked by Hopkins as well, and "lost" to Felix Sturm, as well as Mosley and Mayweather.

Tito crushed Vargas while Nando was still undefeated, and pumbled Mayorga before anyone even buzzed him before....Oscar beat those two as well, but AFTER tito got them.

Tito also ruined fighters like David Reid and others.

Head to Head, DLH was outclassing Tito for the first 8 rounds, but bitch running didn't help his reputation after that.....still, I give Oscar the nod here.

[jyuza]

Oscar is better P4P.

Better resume, beat the best (including Trinidad and Mosley). Only lost clearly to a big middleweight when he was past it and he went toe to toe against the so called number P4P (he even beat him in my eyes).

No, it is not even close. De La Hoya is the best fighter.

[Lampley]

For me, it's Oscar. He beat Tito head to head, in my opinion, and more importantly he had the versatility to defeat different types of opponents, while Tito not only lost but got outclassed and wasn't even competitive against Hopkins and Wright.

[jecxbox]

Tito simply because he beat a lot of fighters who were either Undefeated or "in their moment" of greatness and ruined boxing careers. Oscar was great and this is a close call but honestly Oscar lost most of his meaningful fights. I don't think much about Tito vs Wright because Tito was way past his time. And at 147/154 Trinidad just seemed indestructable - especially at 154lbs. He went into deep waters at 160lbs. I just think taking both careers in their primes,Tito just had more going for him than DLH did. I don't use Oscar vs Tito as ameasuring stick at all in deciding who was the better over all because look what goes around comes around...Oscar had extremely close fights with Whitaker and Quartey. I think he beat Quartey but lost with Whitaker and he definetly lost against Sturm. For the most part when Tito won he won hard and when he lost he lost hard.

[thewoo]

This fight come up all the time and every time the responses are pretty evenly split. Based on that I think that you can make an argument for either guy and they are about even.

[ChampionsForever]

DLH, he beat Trinidad when they were both in their primes, he beat SSM, barely lost to PBF (draw if you ask me) and held hes own against everybody except BHOP. DLH is better all time.

[jecxbox]

He clearly lost twice against SSM and Wasn't close against Floyd. DLH's strategy of flurrying at the end of every round instead of fighting for 3 minutes of every round has hurt him all his career, i never gave him credit for it and the same with many judges at least in his case they got it right.

[LeedsLad]

Trinidad for me. Trinidad beat Hoya in his prime, and Trinidad won his big fights alot more convincingly that DLH did. Hopkins was the only guy to beat a prime Trinidad IMO Trinidad was still a good fighter when Winky beat him but he wasnt the Tito of old.

[Mind Reader]

Oscar is better all time i believe.

[Thread Stealer]

Except Trinidad, Hopkins, Sugar (twice) and PBF. Should read "anyone who was not a black fighter"

Quartey and Whitaker have better claims at "outclassing", or even beating Oscar, then Trinidad does.

[kg0208]

He didnt do a whole lot at that weight except beat Ruelas, Hernandez and win a WBOgus belt. Tito will ALWAYS be above OScar in any and all lists.

He did more in that weight class than Tito right? :deal Trinidad isn't ranked above Oscar on many lists, so that's a false statement.

[kg0208]

When you are so scared/chicken shit of a left hook that you run like a little bitch for 4 important rounds, that is getting outclassed.

So what were the other 8 rounds? Was he afraid then? Or was he just beating Trinidad's ass despite his fear?

[Thread Stealer]

He didnt do a whole lot at that weight except beat Ruelas, Hernandez and win a WBOgus belt. Tito will ALWAYS be above OScar in any and all lists.

That's what he did @ 130. Win a WBO belt and fight there twice. At 135, he beat IBF champ Ruelas (after winning the vacant WBO belt), and some of the top 130 lb. fighters moving up. At 140 he beat the faded linear champ in Chavez (ducking Randall for a decade) and former 135 lb. champ Gonzalez.

[kg0208]

Nope, Oscar was slightly ahead before he showed his heart.
Not by most people's accounts.

[kg0208]

You mean by most OScarsexual's accounts?

Nope. I meant what I said. Like I just told you....being obsessed as much as you are with DLH, you can't talk about others being obsessed with him.

[kg0208]

Once again Oscar DID NOT win the first 8rds!!!! Punches that land on gloves DO NOT count!!!! FYI....In a championship fight you CAN NOT win the fight by going backwards the entire fight and throwing 20 punches in the last 10 seconds of the fight........:rasta

Yah yah....he outlanded Trinidad signifigantly in those rounds AND in the fight. So lets not throw out that BS shall we?

[jecxbox]

Trinidad demolished people. He lost 1 fight in his prime and honestly I don't think Trinidad could ever lose a slug match in his prime only outboxed and he was by amuch bigger man. Oscar shoulda lost about 6-7 fights. No one talks about Sturm.. Everyone talks about Tito's lost to hopkins/winky(who cares about the winky fight).. Oscar got his ass beat by Sturm. Tito beat peoples ass hard and he beat them when they were in their prime or undefeated or were in their 'moment' of greatness. I think its sad that Tito never got to fight Quartey or Terry Norris..If he would have KO'd them the F out Maybe then he would have gotten his due credit. I think he would have killed those two. I know Quartey was a fight that they were thinking about going after, not sure if Don King wanted Trinidad to roll over Terry Norris one of his own fighters.

[jecxbox]

This post isn't about what happened in the Trinidad vs Oscar fight its about how they performed throughout their career. And honestly right before the Hopkins fight Tito had an aura of invinsibility something that Oscar never possessed. Hopkins obviously killed that view but many people were riding on the Trinidad bandwagon and then jumped the fuck off when he lost. 40-0 before hopkins, A prime Tito at 147/154 would never lose a slug match.

[kg0208]

This post isn't about what happened in the Trinidad vs Oscar fight its about how they performed throughout their career. And honestly right before the Hopkins fight Tito had an aura of invinsibility something that Oscar never possessed. Hopkins obviously killed that view but many people were riding on the Trinidad bandwagon and then jumped the fuck off when he lost. 40-0 before hopkins, A prime Tito at 147/154 would never lose a slug match. When you ask about DLH-Tito and their greatness, this is intertwined.

And Trindad was never viewed as invincible after that DLH fight. Most certainly knew he was beatable after that.

[Druid]

Trinidad for sure. DLH lost every major challange he undertook. He beat Vargas and Mayorga only after Tito destroyed them. Quartey was very questionable for DLH and Sturm even more so.
Trinidad never played it safe and kept moving up, I remember him at Welter Weight saying he was moving up to beat RJJ and no one took him seriously. After he beat Joppy and was set to fight Hopkins it was assumed he would win and fight Jones next, no one thought it was laughable anymore. He moved up seeking challenges until he met him limits.

[kg0208]

Trinidad for sure. DLH lost every major challange he undertook. He beat Vargas and Mayorga only after Tito destroyed them. Quartey was very questionable for DLH and Sturm even more so.
Trinidad never played it safe and kept moving up, I remember him at Welter Weight saying he was moving up to beat RJJ and no one took him seriously. After he beat Joppy and was set to fight Hopkins it was assumed he would win and fight Jones next, no one thought it was laughable anymore. He moved up seeking challenges until he met him limits.

You lost me there. Most in the boxing world still thought it was suicide for Trinidad to fight Jones even if he beat Hopkins. He may have been looking for challeges, and thats cool.

[kg0208]

At least he wasnt like Oscar, hiding in the girls bathroom if he thought Forrest was around.

You got pics? If not....:nono

[Ring Master]

Tito.

[Minotauro]

Trinidad is better I like Oscar but he lost to the best fighters he fought.

[Saltzy]

Oscar is better P4P.

Better resume, beat the best (including Trinidad and Mosley). Only lost clearly to a big middleweight when he was past it and he went toe to toe against the so called number P4P (he even beat him in my eyes).

No, it is not even close. De La Hoya is the best fighter.

He beat Mosley and Trinidad.... when did this happen? The record shows that he lost to both fighters, Mosley twice. :deal

Its not who you fought, but who you beat.

[kg0208]

So what year did DLH-Forrest happen? It never did? I see, never mind, but thanks for playing. :good

I dunno, in what year did Forrest-Trinidad happen? It was the same year as that one. :deal

Glad we got this little conversation out of the way.

[bigtime9]

Trinidad for sure. DLH lost every major challange he undertook. He beat Vargas and Mayorga only after Tito destroyed them. Quartey was very questionable for DLH and Sturm even more so.
Trinidad never played it safe and kept moving up, I remember him at Welter Weight saying he was moving up to beat RJJ and no one took him seriously. After he beat Joppy and was set to fight Hopkins it was assumed he would win and fight Jones next, no one thought it was laughable anymore. He moved up seeking challenges until he met him limits.



I'll cosign the druids post, trinidad for sure:bbb

[BITCH ASS]

DLH.....was never outclassed by anyone.

What about Hopkins?

[dave82]

Oscar for the same reason as above

[Jinx]

Trinidad. Tito was the better Welterweight. One of the best of all time at 154. And had a better stint at Middleweight than DLH.

can't argue with this...

[DoumB]

Oscar hands down, he beat trinidad when prime to prime and got robbed, is a 6 divs champ, fought better opposition, argualy won 2 of his loss and maybe loss 1 of his win, and never was he outclassed by anyone even out of his prime.

[kg0208]

What about Hopkins?

That fight wasn't even but it wasn't a blowout at all before the KO.

[DoumB]

That fight wasn't even but it wasn't a blowout at all before the KO.

yeah but we have to say hopkins was starting to take over

[kg0208]

yeah but we have to say hopkins was starting to take over

Certainly he was....but my point is Hopkins didn't outclass him.

[kg0208]

Me too, cause Trinidad destroyed the guy who owns Vernon's ass the way I own yours and your Fathers.

You own men's asses? :yikes This explains alot.

So...this is your play? Trindad destroyed the guy who owns Vernon's ass and this means? Last I checked DLH TKO Mayorga in 6. Right?

[kg0208]

Thanks to Trinidad. OScar follows him (Tito) around, the way those little fish follow around Tiger Sharks waiting for scraps.

You're the one who made the connection as though it mattered. Who fought who first doesn't change anything now does it? Besides, that boxing math doesn't work.

Besides, Tito only fought guys before DLH because DLH came into his weight class after Tito was there.

BTW.....you realize that DLH has never fought a man with a losing record?

[jecxbox]

I didn't want to take it here but i guess I will. I really really never appreciated how many left over fighters that Oscar fought after Trinidad mentally and physically killed them. I'd rather fight any boxer after Trinidad beat their ass cus it sure would be easier! Oscar fought a lot of Trinidad left overs and got WAY to much credit for beating them as well as Tito did. Anyone talk with David Reid after that horrible mismatch because he got retired and He studder talks hardcore. Vargas was ruined after Trinidad. We didn't see Mayorga talk 1/4th as much shit to Tito as he did against DLH/Vargas...lol Ok that last one doesn't mean much but I always like to point that one out. After Whitaker unofficially 'beat' DLH he told Larry Merchant that Tito was definitely a better fighter. Campas and Carr were beat inside out and were undefeated only to fight DLH quite some time later. Sure oscar has 6 different divisions but, If somehow Tito would have beaten Hopkins at 160 he would have been the 'undisputed' champion in 3 different divisions. Not just a Title holder in 3 different divisions.

[kg0208]

I didn't want to take it here but i guess I will. I really really never appreciated how many left over fighters that Oscar fought after Trinidad mentally and physically killed them. I'd rather fight any boxer after Trinidad beat their ass cus it sure would be easier! Oscar fought a lot of Trinidad left overs and got WAY to much credit for beating them as well as Tito did. Anyone talk with David Reid after that horrible mismatch because he got retired and He studder talks hardcore. Vargas was ruined after Trinidad. We didn't see Mayorga talk 1/4th as much shit to Tito as he did against DLH/Vargas...lol Ok that last one doesn't mean much but I always like to point that one out. After Whitaker unofficially 'beat' DLH he told Larry Merchant that Tito was definitely a better fighter. Campas and Carr were beat inside out and were undefeated only to fight DLH quite some time later. Sure oscar has 6 different divisions but, If somehow Tito would have beaten Hopkins at 160 he would have been the 'undisputed' champion in 3 different divisions. Not just a Title holder in 3 different divisions.

First....DLH fought Whitaker before Trinidad did. Secondly, Trinidad fought the guys BEFORE DLH was in the division. He had to fight those guys after Trindad....he didn't have a choice but to go through the ranked fighters. Or do you dispute that? Trinidad entered the WW division in 1991....DLH in 1997, so of course he fought top contenders Trinidad already beat. He also fought guys Trinidad NEVER fought.

[jecxbox]

Trinidad low blowed to save his life? Do yourself a favor and play the Tito vs Vargas fight.

1. Click Play
2. Count to 20
3. And say: PWNED!~!~!

That fake mexican shoulda stayed down!

[jecxbox]

Varagas fate was inevitable he could never beat Trinidad not on his best day. Tito could never lose a slug out. Vargas also deserves an Oscar Award for his acting on the other low blow.

[kg0208]

Varagas fate was inevitable he could never beat Trinidad not on his best day. Tito could never lose a slug out. Vargas also deserves an Oscar Award for his acting on the other low blow.

Never? There are guys who have graced 154 and 147 who would make KO Trinidad in a slugfest.

[jecxbox]

I didn't mean of all time..just simply out of the people that Tito could have fought at 147/154 he was deadly. His punches in his prime were so incredibly clean and powerful. A prime Tito had to of had one of the most Text book left hooks of all time.

[kg0208]

I didn't mean of all time..just simply out of the people that Tito could have fought at 147/154 he was deadly.

My mistake:good

[SweetScienceFan]

Oscar. He beat better fighters, fought better competition, and has never been even close to dominated in a fight.

Tito was a great fighter to watch, one of my favorites, but he was not great when fighting against other top fighters.

Also, anyone with an unbiased mind knows that Oscar clearly showed to be the better man in their prime when they fought.

[jecxbox]

honestly...

[Scar]

hmm. what about lennox lewis

Every fighter has his dirty tactics and if you didn't catch Lewis' then you haven't seem him fight enough. Rabbit punches, holding and hitting, leaning on opponents, shoving, clinching and many other tactics.

[Thread Stealer]

Lewis did a lot of leaning, clutching, and pulling on his opponents...
He sometimes held his opponents’ heads in place, pushing down on the back of the neck and slamming in an uppercut this was how he finished his fight with Michael Grant, and did it a lot against Tyson.

Lewis was also lucky early in his career that Acey had honor and didn't try to do an acting job, a la Montell Griffin or Luis Santana, when Lewis hit him 2 or 3 times when he was down.

[brooklyn1550]

Oscar De La Hoya

[jecxbox]

"Have to go with Tito on this one. Dominate champion who never stepped down for a challenge. Fought six strait champions and only losing to a man that was much bigger than him. Set the record for WW Title defenses and had smashing success at 154. On top of that he moved up to 160 and despite being undersized had spectacular victory over Joppy. Ruined boxers at thier peak such as Campas, Carr, Vargas, Ried, Mayorga, Joppy, Thiam. None of those boxers were the same after Tito beat them."

:good Yep

[bigtime9]

Oscar. He beat better fighters, fought better competition, and has never been even close to dominated in a fight.



a complete fabrication, please list these fighters oscar beat that tito did not:rofl

[Druid]

Trinidad cheated in the VArgas fight, resorting to a low blow that saved his life. that coward.

That is rubbish!
Yrinidad wasn't out on his feet or anything like it and Vargas hit low later in the fight, does this make vargas a cheater or just the defeated?

[Thread Stealer]

That is rubbish!
Yrinidad wasn't out on his feet or anything like it and Vargas hit low later in the fight, does this make vargas a cheater or just the defeated?

Trinidad hit Vargas about 10-15 seconds after he got up from the 4th round KD.

He didn't look seriously hurt...maybe hurt enough to hit Vargas low. Or maybe he was just mad. He's done that before after getting dropped (usually later in the round though, not 10-15 seconds).

[cpnasty]

Trinidad

[SweetScienceFan]

I don't see how anyone can make a serious case for Trinidad being ranked above Oscar all time.

[SweetScienceFan]

a complete fabrication, please list these fighters oscar beat that tito did not:rofl
Julio Ceasar Chavez
Ike Quartey
Pernell Whitaker (while he was still in the top pd 4 pd and Champion) Tito beat him after Whitaker came out of crack rehab, and the fight was a joke)
Arturo Gatti
Javier Castillo
Rafael Ruelas
Jesse James Leija
Felix Sturm
Miguel Angel Gonzalez
Genaro Hernandez
John John Molina
Jorge Paez


That is just to rattle off some guys that Oscar beat, that Tito didn't.


Now let's see your list of Champions that Tito beat, that Oscar didn't beat. I will sit here and laugh at the list that you bring back.

[SweetScienceFan]

Trinidad: Better accomplishments
Hoya: Better boxer
How exactly did Trinidad have better accomplishments?

[kaygb]

Oscar fought the best of the best 5 times, the truly elite of his generation.
Mosley twice, Trinidad, Hopkins and Mayweather. And he lost them all!!
You have to go with Trinidad.

[Caper]

They both lost thier biggest fights of thier career with the exception of Tito's win over Oscar. :hey

Tru :lol:

[Caper]

How exactly did Trinidad have better accomplishments?

In all honesty they are about even in my opinion......

If I had to choose one over the other I would go with Trinidad just based on pure excitement and action. Something about Tito just made you get your popcorn and watch him go at it. I never felt that way about Hoya he always rubbed me the wrong way he seemed to always be more of a business man than he was a fighter though the dude was supremely talented. I never dugg his ora as it seemed fabricated. It seemed like DLH always knew win, lose or draw that he would be a top money getter. I also felt he shy'd away from true combat against Tito and decided to utilize the easy way out and got screwed at the end but rightfully so, some call it a boxing clinic others see it as glorified sparring session that revealed his true intentions as a business boxer in a world of warriors. Don't get me wrong DLH has shown warrior traits but it always seemed to happen at such conveinent points in his career. Technically I thought he lost against Swea Pea, Ike, Strum he's fight with Bhop was less than stellar and has always smelled a bit unpleasent in my opinion. I guess you can simply say I liked Tito because he was simple guy with a warrior heart and an infectious ora that pulled you in without asking while DLH seemed to want approval from everyone instead of just being.

Props to both fighters for keeping the sport alive and kicking.:smoke

[SweetScienceFan]

They both lost thier biggest fights of thier career with the exception of Tito's win over Oscar. :hey
No, they are only considered Oscar's "biggest fights" because he lost them. Had Oscar lost to Whitaker or Chavez, then people would consider those his "biggest fights". If Oscar would have lost to Quartey, Vargas, Hernandez, Gonzalez, Ruales, ect., they would consider those his "biggest fights". Had Oscar beat Mosley, then people would hardly talk about it. Mosley wouldn't be considered the same way that he is today, still basically living off of his first win over Oscar. Also, pretending like Tito actually beat Oscar is laughable.

Oscar simply has so many great wins, that people began to define him by his losses.

[Caper]

No, they are only considered Oscar's "biggest fights" because he lost them. Had Oscar lost to Whitaker or Chavez, then people would consider those his "biggest fights". If Oscar would have lost to Quartey, Vargas, Hernandez, Gonzalez, Ruales, ect., they would consider those his "biggest fights". Had Oscar beat Mosley, then people would hardly talk about it. Mosley wouldn't be considered the same way that he is today, still basically living off of his first win over Oscar. Also, pretending like Tito actually beat Oscar is laughable.

Oscar simply has so many great wins, that people began to define him by his losses.

I also find in laughable when fans actually think Oscar beat Tito. Its an intresting way to evaulate a fight, Tito never backed away from Oscar yet Oscar seemed to land and retreat to perfection. It was not the intimate battle we all expected and it seemed Tito was in it more for the bravado and DLH was in it to get points and dance his way to a score card victory it was the first time I ever saw him use that strategey and the last time I saw him use that strategy. Again you can make arguements for both men but one guy captured a fan base of hardcore fighters while the other seemed to work hard enought to get the nodd from all people even little school girls by putting out music albums that without his fame would have never even sold one record.

[SweetScienceFan]

I also find in laughable when fans actually think Oscar beat Tito. Its an intresting way to evaulate a fight, Tito never backed away from Oscar yet Oscar seemed to land and retreat to perfection. It was not the intimate battle we all expected and it seemed Tito was in it more for the bravado and DLH was in it to get points and dance his way to a score card victory it was the first time I ever saw him use that strategey and the last time I saw him use that strategy. Again you can make arguements for both men but one guy captured a fan base of hardcore fighters while the other seemed to work hard enought to get the nodd from all people even little school girls by putting out music albums that without his fame would have never even sold one record.0
So, because Oscar boxed Tito's ears off, bloodied his face, he doesn't deeserve the win? Because he gave the last two rounds away?

Tell me what rounds you scored for Trinidad, that would be fun.

[SweetScienceFan]

I gave Trinidad rounds 5,7,9,10,11,12
and DLH rounds 2,3,4,6,8, with Round one being Even.

115-114 for Trinidad.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
Here is the 9th round of Oscar vs Tito. Explain to me how an unbiased person can give that round to Tito. Oscar did more in the first minute of the round, than Tito did the entire round, then Oscar closed the round out too. Was it Tito following Oscar around, missing wild shots that won it for you?

w4uCyVvbH3g

[SweetScienceFan]

Here is the 5th round at the begining of this video, I would also love to know how that can be scored for Tito.
z4HWREj2If0

[SweetScienceFan]

7th round at the begining of this. I also don't see that being Tito's round. You have to GIVE Tito those rounds for him to win them. Because he didn't do it in the ring.
46t1L_U3mTs

[DoumB]

Here is the 5th round at the begining of this video, I would also love to know how that can be scored for Tito.
z4HWREj2If0

these pathetic haters cant even put on credible arguments:lol: :patsch

[Druid]

these pathetic haters cant even put on credible arguments:lol: :patsch


You look at these videos and explain how u can give them to Oscar!
The premise of your question/command/debate/tactic supposes that u are the only one who watched this fight properly already and that u know better how to judge a fight than people who disagree with you. So no one who values their time will debate this issue with you. Please be aware it only confirms your stance, not the outcome of the fight. That was rightly decided by the judges.

[SweetScienceFan]

You look at these videos and explain how u can give them to Oscar!
The premise of your question/command/debate/tactic supposes that u are the only one who watched this fight properly already and that u know better how to judge a fight than people who disagree with you. So no one who values their time will debate this issue with you. Please be aware it only confirms your stance, not the outcome of the fight. That was rightly decided by the judges.
How can you score those rounds for Oscar?

Well, here are the 4 catagories of scoring used by the judges.

Clean Effective Punching- Oscar obviously took this by a mile. Oscar landed the only clean effective punches in those rounds. He also landed quite a few, as well as great combinations. OSCAR

Effective Aggressiveness- Nobody wins that. Oscar wasn't fighting overly aggressive, and Tito's aggression was ineffective. DRAW

Defense- Oscar was making Tito look like an amateur missing by a mile on those winging power shots. Tito wasn't even close to being as defensively effecient as Oscar was. OSCAR

Ring Generalship- Oscar made Tito follow him around, and put him into every position that he wanted him to. Made Tito lead, and would counter, or he would move, stop, move and then hit Tito as Tito was trying to reset his position. The fight was fought on Oscar's terms, and he won the ring gerneralship catagory by a mile. OSCAR

Good enough?

[DoumB]

You look at these videos and explain how u can give them to Oscar!
The premise of your question/command/debate/tactic supposes that u are the only one who watched this fight properly already and that u know better how to judge a fight than people who disagree with you. So no one who values their time will debate this issue with you. Please be aware it only confirms your stance, not the outcome of the fight. That was rightly decided by the judges.

tell me what trinidad do to win this rounds?, he got outpunched, outlanded and chaced without any success de la hoya in the ring, while hoya put on a masterful boxing performance thats how it was, look at compupox at end of rounds and look just how many shot they both throw, when ur supposed to be the «successful» agressor u normaly throw more punche, in there he sometimes get doubled and he get outlanded by WIDE margins, see the facts are there, u still beating a dead horse.

[Druid]

How can you score those rounds for Oscar?

Well, here are the 4 catagories of scoring used by the judges.

Clean Effective Punching- Oscar obviously took this by a mile. Oscar landed the only clean effective punches in those rounds. He also landed quite a few, as well as great combinations. OSCAR

Effective Aggressiveness- Nobody wins that. Oscar wasn't fighting overly aggressive, and Tito's aggression was ineffective. DRAW

Defense- Oscar was making Tito look like an amateur missing by a mile on those winging power shots. Tito wasn't even close to being as defensively effecient as Oscar was. OSCAR

Ring Generalship- Oscar made Tito follow him around, and put him into every position that he wanted him to. Made Tito lead, and would counter, or he would move, stop, move and then hit Tito as Tito was trying to reset his position. The fight was fought on Oscar's terms, and he won the ring gerneralship catagory by a mile. OSCAR

Good enough?

Yeah, NO! get over it, I scored it for Tito the night of the fight and everytime I have watched it since. Oscar lost and no matter how hard u wish it isn't going to change it.
Enough said on this!

[DoumB]

Yeah, NO! get over it, I scored it for Tito the night of the fight and everytime I have watched it since. Oscar lost and no matter how hard u wish it isn't going to change it.
Enough said on this!


:rofl :rofl :rofl here come the NO CREDIBLE ARGUMENTS HATTERS!:patsch

[Alo2006]

DLH is the better overall fighter.

[SweetScienceFan]

Yeah, NO! get over it, I scored it for Tito the night of the fight and everytime I have watched it since. Oscar lost and no matter how hard u wish it isn't going to change it.
Enough said on this!
Wow, what a great argument you put forth. Who can argue with the loads of facts that you layed out in that incredible post?

[Druid]

Wow, what a great argument you put forth. Who can argue with the loads of facts that you layed out in that incredible post?

Go back to the last page and read what I wrote. This will clearly show u that u are wrong yet again!

[SweetScienceFan]

You need to take off the Golden Colored Glasses, get off of Oscar's dick for a few moments, and learn how to score a fucking fight. It never ceases to amaze me how Oscar's homosexual male fanbase so vehmenently defends his loss to Tito Trinidad, and are in Absolute denial about it, like an alcoholic at his first forced AA Meeting.
I watched that fight as a neutral fan of both fighters. I walked away after the fight feeling as though Oscar was robbed, and I was very disappointed in Trinidad's performance. To be honest, even in the last two rounds when Oscar ran, I wasn't even mad. I looked at those around me and said "well, he deserves to take the last two rounds off, he just owned Tito for 95% of the fight. All of our jaws hit the floor when the decision was declared. To be honest, you could say that Tito took half of the fight off himself, as he was simply following Oscar around getting tagged.

[DoumB]

You watched the fight with Delahoya's balls gargling in your mouth just like Jim Lampley did, "They biased commentating on the part of Lampley and Foreman, was a Disgrace.

I imagine just like the majority of ppl in here, in the world, and the boxing analys, and proly the punch stats number 2? I love them they keep coming with no arguments at ALL

[DoumB]

Punch stats dont mean anything in this case, "Because most of DLH punches were pitty pat jabs while backpedaling like a chicken shit. And carlito32 is as good an analyst as many of those so called pro's..:good

I guess pity pat punches bust nose ups, and make u dont wanna throw punches b cause they proly dont hurt huh?

[DoumB]

Your a joke, and you alway's find a way to discredit Tito no matter what he does, piss on you, remember that when you see him in the HOF.

never discredit him, are u that retarded? I pointed out what actualy happened in the fighht, jjeeeee some ppl in here are realy reaching:patsch

[jecxbox]

DLH is a hypocrite like no other. Listen to the Golden Girl now saying "oh I want to fight someone who stands in front of me, I want a war i want to go out fighting someone Toe to Toe..this is what boxing fans want they want fighters who fight not box and run" etc etc etc....

BITCH your most important fight was to Felix Trinidad and you didn't exactly fight toe to toe did you!!? In fact In comparing Floyd barely ran from Oscar! He humiliated Oscar on the ropes and was mearly shifting his position in the ring not running. The way Floyd fought Oscar pales in comparison to how sad Oscar fought Tito.

DLH is like the cancer of boxing I wish he would just go away. Look at him now calling out little Ricky Hatton and Miguel Cotto. Give me a break mofuker shoulda fought Toe to Toe like a man when it really mattered.

[DoumB]

DLH is a hypocrite like no other. Listen to the Golden Girl now saying "oh I want to fight someone who stands in front of me, I want a war i want to go out fighting someone Toe to Toe..this is what boxing fans want they want fighters who fight not box and run" etc etc etc....

BITCH your most important fight was to Felix Trinidad and you didn't exactly fight toe to toe did you!!? In fact In comparing Floyd barely ran from Oscar! He humiliated Oscar on the ropes and was mearly shifting his position in the ring not running. The way Floyd fought Oscar pales in comparison to how sad Oscar fought Tito.

DLH is like the cancer of boxing I wish he would just go away. Look at him now calling out little Ricky Hatton and Miguel Cotto. Give me a break mofuker shoulda fought Toe to Toe like a man when it really mattered.

yep against one of the all time hard hitter at welter, GJ CHAMP!:good

[jecxbox]

Oscar didn't try to outbox Trinidad. He came to outrun him. Theres a difference between what Joe Calzaghe did to Jeff Lacy and what Oscar tried to do to Felix Trinidad. Honestly lets face it, Trinidad probably could have fought another 6 rounds against DLH in their fight. DLH was shitting his pants half way through the fight. This is my opinion but I don't think DLH could ever (prime vs prime) beat Felix Trinidad in an old school 15 round fight. DLH has always been a front runner he doesn't know how to close the show. Tito had AMAZING stamina, his fight style conserved so much of his energy while every punch was full throttle. Thats the type of fighter I'd want to see slug it out any day of the week.

[bigtime9]

DLH is a hypocrite like no other. Listen to the Golden Girl now saying "oh I want to fight someone who stands in front of me, I want a war i want to go out fighting someone Toe to Toe..this is what boxing fans want they want fighters who fight not box and run" etc etc etc....

BITCH your most important fight was to Felix Trinidad and you didn't exactly fight toe to toe did you!!? In fact In comparing Floyd barely ran from Oscar! He humiliated Oscar on the ropes and was mearly shifting his position in the ring not running. The way Floyd fought Oscar pales in comparison to how sad Oscar fought Tito.

DLH is like the cancer of boxing I wish he would just go away. Look at him now calling out little Ricky Hatton and Miguel Cotto. Give me a break mofuker shoulda fought Toe to Toe like a man when it really mattered.


now that's what I call telling it like it is:good

[Silver]

DLH is a hypocrite like no other. Listen to the Golden Girl now saying "oh I want to fight someone who stands in front of me, I want a war i want to go out fighting someone Toe to Toe..this is what boxing fans want they want fighters who fight not box and run" etc etc etc....

BITCH your most important fight was to Felix Trinidad and you didn't exactly fight toe to toe did you!!? In fact In comparing Floyd barely ran from Oscar! He humiliated Oscar on the ropes and was mearly shifting his position in the ring not running. The way Floyd fought Oscar pales in comparison to how sad Oscar fought Tito.

DLH is like the cancer of boxing I wish he would just go away. Look at him now calling out little Ricky Hatton and Miguel Cotto. Give me a break mofuker shoulda fought Toe to Toe like a man when it really mattered.:yep thats is kinda true. hes complaing about mayweather, when he turned into a pussy in the championship rds vs. trinidad

[Sister Sledge]

Totally agreed mate, all his defeats have been close , trinidad fight , questionable decision , mosley loss , split decision , second loss to mosley unanmious but everyone thought he won , bernard hopkins , was defintely in the fight till he got caught with one shot , and mayweather fight split decision. Oscar de la hoya has never been outclassed

:good

[jecxbox]

Totally agreed mate, all his defeats have been close , trinidad fight , questionable decision , mosley loss , split decision , second loss to mosley unanmious but everyone thought he won , bernard hopkins , was defintely in the fight till he got caught with one shot , and mayweather fight split decision. Oscar de la hoya has never been outclassed


Dude Felix Sturm beat his ass I don't care what anyone says. And you guys can add Pernell Whitaker and Ike Quartey to those "questionable" or "close" fights..:|

[jecxbox]

Trinidads fight with Whitaker wasn't close...And Quartey is lucky he never ran into Trinidad (woulda been a great fight with Quarteys KO'd on the canvas)..And Theres only room for 1 Felix in the Boxing world and that is Tito..So Tito would have beat Sturm's face in by default! baaahaha:bbb :hat

[Lupe]

Tito will always be ranked far ahead of Oscar ATG wise. While Oscar's resume is deceiving, especially to those with little knowledge, it's clear that he fought fighters when he was sure they had nothing left (Mayorga, Campas, Vargas), in decline (Chavez & Mosley), or are smaller (Gatti, Mayweather, ...).

[SweetScienceFan]

Tito will always be ranked far ahead of Oscar ATG wise. While Oscar's resume is deceiving, especially to those with little knowledge, it's clear that he fought fighters when he was sure they had nothing left (Mayorga, Campas, Vargas), in decline (Chavez & Mosley), or are smaller (Gatti, Mayweather, ...).
That was good for a laugh. Thanks. I have never seen one boxing historian who ranks Trinidad above DLH. I really don't see how you can, since Tito didn't come close to accomplishing what Oscar did, and was so obviously outclassed by Oscar when the met face to face. Let alone Tito being dominated by Wright and Hopkins in the manner that he was. Oscar has never been dominated, and has fought better opposition.

[Tito Time]

I'll cosign the druids post, trinidad for sure:bbb
LOL!

[Tito Time]

Thanks to Trinidad. OScar follows him (Tito) around, the way those little fish follow around Tiger Sharks waiting for scraps.

I meant to laugh at this...:yep

[Lupe]

That was good for a laugh. Thanks. I have never seen one boxing historian who ranks Trinidad above DLH. I really don't see how you can, since Tito didn't come close to accomplishing what Oscar did, and was so obviously outclassed by Oscar when the met face to face. Let alone Tito being dominated by Wright and Hopkins in the manner that he was. Oscar has never been dominated, and has fought better opposition.

You need to read and you'll know...

1. Oscar lost to Trinidad. Man, it's been 7 years already.

2. Oscar was embarrassed by a smaller Mayweather.

3. Oscar was KTFO by a weak bodyshot and rolled on the floor instead of getting up.

4. Oscar thought Mosley was ripe for the picking after his losses to Vernon and Winky...and was embarrassed.

4. Oscar thought he'd walk all over a Mosley who jumped 140 to challenged him...and was outfought and outclassed.

5. Oscar avoided and still avoids Winky like a plaque.

6. Oscar was spanked around by Sturm. We give him credit because it was his first fight at 160.

I can go on..but seriously would any sane person rate a man who feasted on a slew of leftovers ahead of a man would ruined those leftovers in the first place?

C'mon!

[DoumB]

Tito will always be ranked far ahead of Oscar ATG wise. While Oscar's resume is deceiving, especially to those with little knowledge, it's clear that he fought fighters when he was sure they had nothing left (Mayorga, Campas, Vargas), in decline (Chavez & Mosley), or are smaller (Gatti, Mayweather, ...).

what do u know? ur only known in here as a DLH hater, and ur second statement is why u have no credibility

[DoumB]

You need to read and you'll know...

1. Oscar lost to Trinidad. Man, it's been 7 years already.

2. Oscar was embarrassed by a smaller Mayweather.

3. Oscar was KTFO by a weak bodyshot and rolled on the floor instead of getting up.

4. Oscar thought Mosley was ripe for the picking after his losses to Vernon and Winky...and was embarrassed.

4. Oscar thought he'd walk all over a Mosley who jumped 140 to challenged him...and was outfought and outclassed.

5. Oscar avoided and still avoids Winky like a plaque.

6. Oscar was spanked around by Sturm. We give him credit because it was his first fight at 160.

I can go on..but seriously would any sane person rate a man who feasted on a slew of leftovers ahead of a man would ruined those leftovers in the first place?

C'mon!

here are the no credible arguments AGAIN, u no as I no that DLH beat trinidad, he beat a lot more good fighters and never got dominated, hes far superior to Tito wether u like it or not.

[kirk]

to be honest... to me it kinda seems like Trinidad softened up a lot if not most of oscars guys way before oscar got to them.

Honestly, look at oscars record... check how many champions tito ruined first.

also, he beat oscar.

the only thing counting agianst him is the fact that winky completely owned him.

Hops... ya... but so what, tito is a natural 154lber and Hops fights at light heavy now.

[ayala]

they both have similar opponents such as Oba Carr but Tito beat 1st,Yory Boy Campas again Tito killed him,Fernando Vargas in which Tito ended his career,Mayorga in which Tito left Oscar the left overs,and in my eyes they both faced each other in which I had a draw at first and after watching it again with no volume I thought Tito won

[Lupe]

here are the no credible arguments AGAIN, u no as I no that DLH beat trinidad, he beat a lot more good fighters and never got dominated, hes far superior to Tito wether u like it or not.

Oscar was never dominated by Sturm huh!

He's not been avoiding Winky?

He did not soil his pants against Hopkins?

You fail to offer any credible arguments against my points..as usual.
Believe what you want..

[DoumB]

Oscar was never dominated by Sturm huh!

He's not been avoiding Winky?

He did not soil his pants against Hopkins?

You fail to offer any credible arguments against my points..as usual.
Believe what you want..

1. oscar was not dominated by sturm, I fight I tough he lost by 1 round, not a domination unless ur a retard.

2. He got knocked out by B-HOP, so was Tito but alteast Oscar had more success agasint him

3é Here are the FACTS, u need to understand that no logical boxing fan will agree with u, stop spinning ur pathetic.

[Caper]

0
So, because Oscar boxed Tito's ears off, bloodied his face, he doesn't deeserve the win? Because he gave the last two rounds away?

Tell me what rounds you scored for Trinidad, that would be fun.

Your obsession is frightening I'm only stating my opinion, I have the fight at home it was a complete dissapointment for me there's no need to try and prove your point. I see Tito in a different light when compared to DLH they are different me with different values, when becoming a fan of a fighter I use a combination of his skills, heart, intergrity, balls, brovado, commintment and individuality. I can def see how you may score the fight for DLH but I can also see how one would sway towards Tito's side because constant aggression in pushing the fight for the fans.

[Caper]

1. oscar was not dominated by sturm, I fight I tough he lost by 1 round, not a domination unless ur a retard.

2. He got knocked out by B-HOP, so was Tito but alteast Oscar had more success agasint him

3é Here are the FACTS, u need to understand that no logical boxing fan will agree with u, stop spinning ur pathetic.

I disagree.......

I don't see how Tito going toe to toe with Bhop for an entire 12rds is less impressive than DLH going down for the count with a less than stellar body shot, let me ask you this could you even imagine Tito going down for the count after taking the punishment bhop dished out to DLH :-( .....warriors go out like warriors point blank.

Strum did dominate an out of shape, unprepared DLH point blank, live with it. Do I think Strum is a better fighter than DLH.....no way but he was the better fighter that night....no doubt about it.

[Tito Time]

DLH is the better overall fighter.

Dude, where did you get avatar?

[DoumB]

I disagree.......

I don't see how Tito going toe to toe with Bhop for an entire 12rds is less impressive than DLH going down for the count with a less than stellar body shot, let me ask you this could you even imagine Tito going down for the count after taking the punishment bhop dished out to DLH :-( .....warriors go out like warriors point blank.

Strum did dominate an out of shape, unprepared DLH point blank, live with it. Do I think Strum is a better fighter than DLH.....no way but he was the better fighter that night....no doubt about it.

ok then I suppose u most think arturo Gatti is a better fighter, oh and yeah ricardo mayorga too, u delusional haters are funny to own.

[DoumB]

Looks like he has alot of logical boxing fans agreeing with him, have you read the thread.


who told u u were a logical boxing fan? all u do is hate on DLH and white HW euros.

[Lupe]

1. oscar was not dominated by sturm, I fight I tough he lost by 1 round, not a domination unless ur a retard.

2. He got knocked out by B-HOP, so was Tito but alteast Oscar had more success agasint him

3é Here are the FACTS, u need to understand that no logical boxing fan will agree with u, stop spinning ur pathetic.

Sorry Dumb, on the basis of that first statement, I cannot debate with you.

[DoumB]

Sorry Dumb, on the basis of that first statement, I cannot debate with you.

dont be sorry, I know u cant take anything positiv about oscar but its ok, ur not alone like that in here

[Caper]

ok then I suppose u most think arturo Gatti is a better fighter, oh and yeah ricardo mayorga too, u delusional haters are funny to own.

Hater :patsch

Get your head out of Tony Saprano's ass.....

When did I ever say I was DLH hater, I admire what he's done, I respect his skills and accomplishments but I don't hold him close to my boxing heart. I rank Tito above him for simple reasons I don't need to look at records I can simply look at the fighter and what they truly stand for.

Relax Gatti is the fucking man and he will forever hold a spot in my HOF I don't give two fucks about what others think of him.

I hate no fighter.

Now let's go smoke a blunt. :rasta

[Amsterdam]

Trinidad, definitley.

[Caper]

who told u u were a logical boxing fan? all u do is hate on DLH and white HW euros.

:lol:

I wish I could play some Texas Hold'em with your ass, your tells are classic.

[Lupe]

they both have similar opponents such as Oba Carr but Tito beat 1st,Yory Boy Campas again Tito killed him,Fernando Vargas in which Tito ended his career,Mayorga in which Tito left Oscar the left overs,and in my eyes they both faced each other in which I had a draw at first and after watching it again with no volume I thought Tito won

Man! Tito ruined a lot of fighters come to think of it. Even Carr, though he got lucky against Bramble, was never really the same post Tito.

Campas was considered a monster before his head was almost chopped off.

Vargas was a baddas who even believed he can't loose. He was calling on Oscar before he fought Tito and Oscar swore in public that he would never fight him.

A ruining later, ala Tito, Oscar wants Vargas too. Go figure.

[Caper]

Trinidad, definitley.

I knew we could get drunk together
























But thats it. :blood

[Thread Stealer]

Man! Tito ruined a lot of fighters come to think of it. Even Carr, though he got lucky against Bramble, was never really the same post Tito.

Campas was considered a monster before his head was almost chopped off.

Vargas was a baddas who even believed he can't loose. He was calling on Oscar before he fought Tito and Oscar swore in public that he would never fight him.

A ruining later, ala Tito, Oscar wants Vargas too. Go figure.

I don't think Tito ruined Oba or Yori Boy. Carr was a promising contender who had a name due to all those fights on USA, but he was pretty untested before he ran into Trinidad. He didn't look any worse a couple years later when he fought Quartey. And Campas, well, did he actually diminish as a fighter after Trinidad? Or people just saw him for what he was, a tough guy with some heavy hands who shortened punches up well, and also had a defense to make Riddick Bowe look like Floyd Mayweather.

Now Vargas I don't think was ever quite the same after Trinidad (although he was still a good fighter), and neither was Reid.

[Lupe]

I don't think Tito ruined Oba or Yori Boy. Carr was a promising contender who had a name due to all those fights on USA, but he was pretty untested before he ran into Trinidad. He didn't look any worse a couple years later when he fought Quartey. And Campas, well, did he actually diminish as a fighter after Trinidad? Or people just saw him for what he was, a tough guy with some heavy hands who shortened punches up well, and also had a defense to make Riddick Bowe look like Floyd Mayweather.

Now Vargas I don't think was ever quite the same after Trinidad (although he was still a good fighter), and neither was Reid.

With Carr, its marginal ruining. He was touted as a future champ. I think it was more of his confidence being shattered because he seemed to falter everytime he stepped up (Ike & Oscar).

Campas was clearly not the same fighter. Even though he had pourous defense, pre Tito..he could compensate with upper body movement. But afterwards he seemed to regress. Trinidad landed more than enough right crosses and left hooks from the 3 rd round that did nothing to Campas.

The post Tito Campas had his heart taken away from him.

[SweetScienceFan]

You need to read and you'll know...

1. Oscar lost to Trinidad. Man, it's been 7 years already.

2. Oscar was embarrassed by a smaller Mayweather.

3. Oscar was KTFO by a weak bodyshot and rolled on the floor instead of getting up.

4. Oscar thought Mosley was ripe for the picking after his losses to Vernon and Winky...and was embarrassed.

4. Oscar thought he'd walk all over a Mosley who jumped 140 to challenged him...and was outfought and outclassed.

5. Oscar avoided and still avoids Winky like a plaque.

6. Oscar was spanked around by Sturm. We give him credit because it was his first fight at 160.

I can go on..but seriously would any sane person rate a man who feasted on a slew of leftovers ahead of a man would ruined those leftovers in the first place?

C'mon!
Wow, no need to talk boxing with you. Obviously you haven't seen too much of it.

[DoumB]

Wow, no need to talk boxing with you. Obviously you haven't seen too much of it.

welcome in here, hes known as an oscar hater my friend:good

[halfamazin1]

Oscar was a beast, but he made his name when he beat an ancient JCC. But when it really mattered, he got man-handled. In his first real teast Ike, he nearly lost, then, when he did fight TITO bottom line is he lost whether we agree or not the record books will always say he lost. Then he lost to Mosley again, and humiliated by BHOP. Tito at least lost to BHOP on his shield. He got outclassed by not one but two former 130 pounders with Mosley and PBF.

Everyone can say Tito really lost to Oscar, but damn...everyone seems to forget him getting absolutley humiliated by sweat pea and then his lame krispy kream excuse when he got beat by someone who no one even heard of prior to that fight in felix strum. These factors alone I give Tito the nod, plus a rematch at 154 which was supposed to happen would have been a TITO destruction...ending all the talk about the first fight.

[jecxbox]

DLH doesn't give a shit about his boxing legacy, If people think otherwise they are crazy. Why even give him the benefit of a doubt this is a man that lies through his teeth just to promote a fight. Mayorga should have been paid double of what he was paid in their fight because the only one who promoted that shit was Mayorga through his shit talking. Sure Oscar has the fan base but who creates the hype his opponents! This is even the same deal with Floyd..he was the villian and everyone paid to see Floyd lose which is a funny thought at that. Oscar lost all his biggest fights, he is fighting for money not legacy.. he never has. I remember when Oscar was going to fight Gatti...right before Gatti he was at such a low in his career coming off his losses and considering retirement because of the idea of losing to Gatti...lol CMONNNN

If oscar wanted to forge his own legacy he wouldn't have returned to the ring against Mayorga..a guy who was just trashed by Tito Trinidad..I mean give me a break seriously. It's so funny that he calls out little Cotto and Hatton because he wants to fight "Toe to Toe"...The truth is that Oscar could care less..he thinks Cotto/Hatton are easy opponents for him to Knock Out and he wants to cash in some more $$ for GBP..Its sad.

[41fever]

tough call, they both had great opposition. Probably Oscar, though. From 147 down, ODLH. 147 north, Tito of course.

[EpsilonAxis]

probably Oscar but it's very very close

[jecxbox]

Did you hear DLH talking now? Wants little Hatton/Cotto and now a possible rematch with Floyd Mayweather Jr..but wait "only if the ring is smaller 16x16" :rofl Wow, First Floyd had to use the Reyes Gloves, then at 154 and then an even SMALLER ring the 2nd time around!!??!? DLH belongs in the special olympics!!!! :good

[bigtime9]

Did you hear DLH talking now? Wants little Hatton/Cotto and now a possible rematch with Floyd Mayweather Jr..but wait "only if the ring is smaller 16x16" :rofl Wow, First Floyd had to use the Reyes Gloves, then at 154 and then an even SMALLER ring the 2nd time around!!??!? DLH belongs in the special olympics!!!! :good


what site is that on, oscar would still lose regardless of what he says.:lol:

[jecxbox]

De La Hoya did not rule out a rematch with Mayweather Jr, saying that fight could happen, but only if Mayweather agreed to fight in a smaller ring. A ring as small as 16 by 16 instead of 20 by 20.

"Mayweather is a very slippery fighter, he's a tricky fighter," De La Hoya added:
"So, obviously, we would want a smaller ring and it would be more of an interesting, exciting fight. So that's one thing we have to look at, and that's the only obstacle that's in the way
of making a rematch."

maxboxing

[jecxbox]

DLH = :| :scaredas: :dead :yikes

[DoumB]

Everybody can give their opinion, who the hell are you. If someone has the opinion of Trinidad being better than let it be. I am sick of your shit and Trinindad hatred, just know in the end who had his hands raised in victory after being weight drained and beating an opponent who never wanted to engage.

Im not basing it on opinion but the fact that ppl actualy try to say trinidad won their fight when its clear in the boxing world he didnt, If u were here long enough u would no I never was a Trinidad Hater, always had a few picks with him against some ATGS

[halfamazin1]

Much respect CHitown. Do you remember Robert Taylor? I do, I use to have cousins who lived around there (99-00) I would never visit them, not even the police would:think

that's the truth gotta pick and choose your areas...