Chuvalo's Chin - Can A Case Be Made...

[Russell]

For it not being as mythic ally undentable as it's touted to be?

Don't get me wrong, I love Chuvalo. As a fighter and as a person, what he's gone through, his story in general. He's one of the fighters who started my interest with the sport.

But there's a gray zone regarding his chin, and the more I think about it the more it seems that it might be a smidgen overrated because of his name constantly being thrown around in places like the General forum.

Hear me out.

He was stopped by the two best punchers he faced in a combined 7 rounds. Ref stoppage in the Foreman fight, in the Frazier fight he literally turned his back from Joe once his cheekbone was injured and that was that.

The epitome of an elite, ATG chin is being unaffected by punches. Completely.

Shaver's vs. Cobb is a perfect example. A certified, top tier power punching fighter in Shaver's hitting Cobb with everything he has and Cobb not so much as taking a step back. Total disregard for the other mans power no matter how scary it is.

On top of Chuvalo's two stoppages, he was supposedly knocked down multiple times by Oscar Bonavena. Now I don't know if they were official or not, I've heard they were both slips and legitmate.

Is it possible that Chuvalo's chin was a hair behind the likes of Oliver McCall, Tex Cobb and Wayne McCullough?

I'm in no way saying his chin is anything less then legendary, but rather then standing head and toe above those other fighters, is it possible he's just a little below them?

[Jersey Joe]

"The epitome of an elite, ATG chin is being unaffected by punches. Completely. "

No one is unaffected by punches. It's basic physics and biology, there is a limit to everyone's durability. Shavers had amazing one-punch power, but that is not as dangerous as the almost-as-hard combination punches of a Tyson or Louis, for example.

If Cobb had fought a prime Louis, Tyson, or Foreman, he would have been toast. Because of his epic chin, he would not have gone down to one punch most likely, but accumulation of punishment would have been enough.

IMO there are two aspects to a great chin. The first is punch-resistance i.e. how hard it is to knock you down and/or leave you seriously dazed. But that's not everything. in fact, in some ways it's bad to be too hard to knock down. It's better to go down and get a 10 count to recover, then to stay up and then get dazed on your feet and have the ref stop the fight. Standing up stunned for 3 seconds defenseless is more dangerous than being on the canvas for 7 seconds defenseless. So the second aspect of a great chin is recuperation. Take Ali for example, he got knocked down several times, but always recovered.

So I think you have to combine the two. By that standard, Ali had a better chin than Chuvalo. But Cobb, yeah he had one hell of a chin - still, did it ever get truly tested against a lethal combination puncher? IMO no.

Pound for pound I think Marvin Hagler has the best chin ever. He only got remotely hurt once, and that was vs Hearns, one of the biggest punchers at his weight. And Hagler not only recuperated, he actually went beserk and messed Tommy up in the same round.

[rydersonthestorm]

well mccall took some monster shots from lewis and bruno without realy flinching, and wayne tokk the best naz had to offer and was never in trouble so i would say they where 2 of the best ever chin wise.

[Russell]

"The epitome of an elite, ATG chin is being unaffected by punches. Completely. "

No one is unaffected by punches. It's basic physics and biology, there is a limit to everyone's durability. Shavers had amazing one-punch power, but that is not as dangerous as the almost-as-hard combination punches of a Tyson or Louis, for example.

Pound for pound I think Marvin Hagler has the best chin ever. He only got remotely hurt once, and that was vs Hearns, one of the biggest punchers at his weight. And Hagler not only recuperated, he actually went beserk and messed Tommy up in the same round.

Hearn's was NOT one of the best middleweight punchers of all time. You can argue that Eugene Hart, who Hagler said hit him hardest, actually tested his chin.

Eugene had Hagler throwing absolutely nothing for an entire round late in their fight. Hagler seemed to be recouping after taking some shots.

Also, assuming Cobb would be stopped by a combination puncher without pause is ridiculous. We saw more then one chin stand up to Tyson's combination punching, and yet Cobb doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell? :tired:patsch

[DamonD]

It's true that it's not just the chin, it the recuperative powers, but also the awareness of when to tie up and clear your head too. You get much less renowned fighters such as Marion Wilson that should really get more praise for their durability.

[Russell]

It's true that it's not just the chin, it the recuperative powers, but also the awareness of when to tie up and clear your head too. You get much less renowned fighters such as Marion Wilson that should really get more praise for their durability.

Marion's a fucking freak, he was almost 60 years old when he had back to back fights with Oliver McCall. :lol:

Best part is he could be a cruiserweight with the new 200 pound limit. Small, small heavy. His fuckin' resume is ridiculous. Guy fought everyone and never, EVER faltered.

[Silver]

dotn know, they said had the fight not been stoped theat foreman was gonna drop him

[Mendoza]

For it not being as mythic ally undentable as it's touted to be?

Don't get me wrong, I love Chuvalo. As a fighter and as a person, what he's gone through, his story in general. He's one of the fighters who started my interest with the sport.

But there's a gray zone regarding his chin, and the more I think about it the more it seems that it might be a smidgen overrated because of his name constantly being thrown around in places like the General forum.

Hear me out.

He was stopped by the two best punchers he faced in a combined 7 rounds. Ref stoppage in the Foreman fight, in the Frazier fight he literally turned his back from Joe once his cheekbone was injured and that was that.

The epitome of an elite, ATG chin is being unaffected by punches. Completely.

Shaver's vs. Cobb is a perfect example. A certified, top tier power punching fighter in Shaver's hitting Cobb with everything he has and Cobb not so much as taking a step back. Total disregard for the other mans power no matter how scary it is.

On top of Chuvalo's two stoppages, he was supposedly knocked down multiple times by Oscar Bonavena. Now I don't know if they were official or not, I've heard they were both slips and legitmate.

Is it possible that Chuvalo's chin was a hair behind the likes of Oliver McCall, Tex Cobb and Wayne McCullough?

I'm in no way saying his chin is anything less then legendary, but rather then standing head and toe above those other fighters, is it possible he's just a little below them?

" Chins are best tested when they are hit by hard shots by big punchers "


I think Chavlao had a heck of a chin, but its also a tad over rated. Foreman had Chavalo in trouble early. If the ref did not stop it, I think Foreman scores a knockdown in the next 10-20 seconds. Chavalo was busted up and quit vs Frazier. And yes, he was knocked down legitametly by Bonevenna, but the ref blew it. Did Chavalo ever fight a big puncher and take their best without getting TKO'd by punches?

McCall has a grade A chin, but like Chavalo, he has been shaky. Bruce Seldon had McCall visibly rocked and in trouble in round 9. Buster Douglas could have stopped McCall in the later rounds as McCall was gassing and a little hurt, but Douglas coasted in the final rounds, so it was a moot point. McCall said Bert Cooper hit him the hardest. McCall took some hard shots from Lewis before quitting. McCall is one of two ring magazine champion never to be floored by a punch.

Cobb had an anvil for a head, but was he really ever hit by a bomb? That did not happen in the Shavers fight. Cobb was once dropped by a no-name. He also took good stuff from Norton, Douglas, and Holmes.

Who took the best shot of the three? It’s a hard call. Maybe McCall took the best singular shot, but I think Cobb was the hardest to stop of the three, because IMO he mentally tougher than McCall or Chavalo.

[papke26]

It wasn't overrated at all.

I saw his fight with foreman and he was hit with a non - stop barrage of leather from FOREMAN and he didn't go down! He apparently turned away from fraizer with a brocken cheekbone - whats the problem he is human?
Another factor left out is what chuvalo said himself, he always say's he never took as many as people thought he did, and he alway's tucked his chin in. But nevertheless he had an iron jaw, insofar as rocky marciano propounding that he was impossible to knock out [ that's from rocky marciano!]

[Manassa]

Eugene had Hagler throwing absolutely nothing for an entire round late in their fight. Hagler seemed to be recouping after taking some shots.

When was this then? He hurt Hagler at the end of round five or six momentarily (but don't think for one second Hagler was staggering or anything close to that) but that's about it.

Dornell Wigfall hurt Hagler the most. Some will say Norberto Cabrera knocked him down, but he didn't.

[JohnThomas1]

Pound for pound I think Marvin Hagler has the best chin ever. He only got remotely hurt once, and that was vs Hearns, one of the biggest punchers at his weight.

Hagler himself has stated there's been times he's been hurt to the point where he didn't know what round it was, might have even said where he was as well. This was pre Hearns and unfortunately he didn't elaborate what fight or fights.

They all get hurt, some just show it less and deal with it better when it does come along.

[Pat_Lowe]

Juan LaPorte's is the best in my book, he stood up to numerous punchers over the course of his whole career and as far as I know was never dropped, and I cannot recall a time he was hurt.

[rydersonthestorm]

Juan LaPorte's is the best in my book, he stood up to numerous punchers over the course of his whole career and as far as I know was never dropped, and I cannot recall a time he was hurt.
i wouldn't say it was any better than wayne mcullough

[bigjake]

" Chins are best tested when they are hit by hard shots by big punchers "


I think Chavlao had a heck of a chin, but its also a tad over rated. Foreman had Chavalo in trouble early. If the ref did not stop it, I think Foreman scores a knockdown in the next 10-20 seconds. Chavalo was busted up and quit vs Frazier. And yes, he was knocked down legitametly by Bonevenna, but the ref blew it. Did Chavalo ever fight a big puncher and take their best without getting TKO'd by punches?

McCall has a grade A chin, but like Chavalo, he has been shaky. Bruce Seldon had McCall visibly rocked and in trouble in round 9. Buster Douglas could have stopped McCall in the later rounds as McCall was gassing and a little hurt, but Douglas coasted in the final rounds, so it was a moot point. McCall said Bert Cooper hit him the hardest. McCall took some hard shots from Lewis before quitting. McCall is one of two ring magazine champion never to be floored by a punch.

Cobb had an anvil for a head, but was he really ever hit by a bomb? That did not happen in the Shavers fight. Cobb was once dropped by a no-name. He also took good stuff from Norton, Douglas, and Holmes.

Who took the best shot of the three? It’s a hard call. Maybe McCall took the best singular shot, but I think Cobb was the hardest to stop of the three, because IMO he mentally tougher than McCall or Chavalo.

bonavena never knocked chuvalo down,those were pushes,your reaching oscar wanted the glory any way he could get it even cheating if he had to.chuvalo said bonavena was a dog he ran the entire fight

[Russell]

When was this then? He hurt Hagler at the end of round five or six momentarily (but don't think for one second Hagler was staggering or anything close to that) but that's about it.

Dornell Wigfall hurt Hagler the most. Some will say Norberto Cabrera knocked him down, but he didn't.
He was never stumbling, you're right. I wasn't trying to imply that either.

But late in the fight when Hart was unloading Hagler went into a shell for an entire round. Usually his reaction was to fire back but Hart's power obviously concerned, and somewhat stunned him.

Might not sound like much but it's fucking Hagler.

[klompton]

bonavena never knocked chuvalo down,those were pushes,your reaching oscar wanted the glory any way he could get it even cheating if he had to.chuvalo said bonavena was a dog he ran the entire fight

I have the Bonavena-Chuvalo fight and Bonavena not only knocked Chuvalo down twice (the only time Ive ever seen Mercante blow a call) but stood toe to toe with him and outscored him. Chuvalo always had an excuse for losing but the fact was he was just a tough, slow, unskilled guy who went as far as his limited skills could take him.

[abraq]

Russell, basically I agree with what you say. Same love, regards for Chuvalo as you have but have to admit that what you posted is just about right.

[Mendoza]

bonavena never knocked chuvalo down,those were pushes,your reaching oscar wanted the glory any way he could get it even cheating if he had to.chuvalo said bonavena was a dog he ran the entire fight

Most people who saw the fight think the ref blew a knockdown, and I'm one of them. Bonavena wasn't a dog, he used skills to out box a much slower Chuvalo. Sometimes the two went toe to toe. Did you ever watch this fight? Its a good one.

[he grant]

Chuvalo's chin was exceptional ... can't compare an old George getting teed off on by prime Frazier and Foreman v.s. a young Cobb surviving an old Shavers .. the shots he took against Foreman were amazing and terrible to watch .. the Bonavena fight is on Youtube and the knockdowns are highly questionable ... combinations of pushes and off balance ... I do not see them as real knockdowns although techinically once his glove hit the canvas ... The shots George took vs Foreman dwarfed the shots McCall took from a tentative Lewis ...

[bigjake]

Chuvalo's chin was exceptional ... can't compare an old George getting teed off on by prime Frazier and Foreman v.s. a young Cobb surviving an old Shavers .. the shots he took against Foreman were amazing and terrible to watch .. the Bonavena fight is on Youtube and the knockdowns are highly questionable ... combinations of pushes and off balance ... I do not see them as real knockdowns although techinically once his glove hit the canvas ... The shots George took vs Foreman dwarfed the shots McCall took from a tentative Lewis ...

yes chuvalo's chin was the best,some on here,say bonavena put him down its not so.tjhe referee was right there there were no knock downs.i guess it serves a purpose to say chuvalo was down makes their man seem a little better i guess,who knows.yes i've seen the fight 100 times or more

[Bummy Davis]

There is no doubt that chins like Chuvalo,McCall and Cobb were solid be cause they got hit solid by punchers and stayed on there feet but none of them were defensive masters...McCall being the better of the 3 at slipping and rolling with punches....Chuvalo had a good chin but his legs were also good at keeping him up when being pounded

[bigjake]

I have the Bonavena-Chuvalo fight and Bonavena not only knocked Chuvalo down twice (the only time Ive ever seen Mercante blow a call) but stood toe to toe with him and outscored him. Chuvalo always had an excuse for losing but the fact was he was just a tough, slow, unskilled guy who went as far as his limited skills could take him.

boxing illustrated was at ringside for this fight,they had chuvalo winning it 6 rounds to 4.

[bigjake]

Most people who saw the fight think the ref blew a knockdown, and I'm one of them. Bonavena wasn't a dog, he used skills to out box a much slower Chuvalo. Sometimes the two went toe to toe. Did you ever watch this fight? Its a good one.

i remember the fight i was into boxing at the time and i've watched it maybe 100 times since those seem a lot like pushes to me oscar used btw boxing illustrated had chuvalo winning that fight 6 rds to 4 they were at ringside

[Russell]

There is no doubt that chins like Chuvalo,McCall and Cobb were solid be cause they got hit solid by punchers and stayed on there feet but none of them were defensive masters...McCall being the better of the 3 at slipping and rolling with punches....Chuvalo had a good chin but his legs were also good at keeping him up when being pounded

Wait, so you're saying McCall is more skilled then Chuvalo?

Not a damned chance.

[janitor]

Chuvalo always had an excuse for losing but the fact was he was just a tough, slow, unskilled guy who went as far as his limited skills could take him.

I have always fancied that Chuvalo had a little more method in his game than he was generaly given credit for.

[Russell]

I have always fancied that Chuvalo had a little more method in his game than he was generaly given credit for.

That he did. His bodypunching had Ali urinating blood.

Funny how he and LaMotta had more skill then given credit for

[Jersey Joe]

Hearn's was NOT one of the best middleweight punchers of all time. You can argue that Eugene Hart, who Hagler said hit him hardest, actually tested his chin.

Eugene had Hagler throwing absolutely nothing for an entire round late in their fight. Hagler seemed to be recouping after taking some shots.

Also, assuming Cobb would be stopped by a combination puncher without pause is ridiculous. We saw more then one chin stand up to Tyson's combination punching, and yet Cobb doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell? :tired:patsch

I'd say Hearns hit harder than the vast majority of middleweights. Sure, some hit harder - Tommy was after all a welter originally. But he KOd light heavyweights later in his career, he was the only guy to brutally KO Roberto Duran - he could seriously bang. He also threw in combinations, not just a one-punch guy. And Marvin shrugged it off, as he did versus Hart, Mugabi etc.

I never said Cobb didn't have a snowball's chance in hell. In boxing, everyone has at least an outside chance. I just think it's odds on that he would eventually be KOd versus the really hard-hitting and skilled boxers in his division. If you look at his fight versus Holmes, in the later rounds he was somewhat dazed. Now replace those blows from Holmes, not a real power puncher, and who was holding back late in the fight, with blows from a much more ruthless and powerful Louis, Tyson, Foreman etc. If Holmes could get Cobb dazed by the end, those bigger hitters are IMO odds on to finish him before the end of round 15. The problem Cobb had was no defence - he was there to be hit. Because of his epic chin, he would take a huge amount of punishment. But I don't see him surviving a 15 round beating from the real big hitters. Chuvalo only lasted a few rounds vs Foreman and Frazier. The guys who lasted versus Tyson, Louis, and prime Foreman generally survived because of *defence*, not by getting hit flush for 15 consecutive rounds and having a tough enough chin to withstand it.

[Senya13]

Hearns only landed one big punch on Hagler, and it was enough to stagger him. We can only speculate what would have happened if Hearns didn't injure his hand with that punch, maybe if he landed a couple more punches as a follow up Hagler would go down, we'll never know.

[Manassa]

Stagger? Hagler barely wobbled, and infact was hit by a follow-up flurry of at least seven punches. Moments later he was hitting Hearns back.

You know Hagler had the ultimate jaw when people use this as an example of his vulnerability.

[klompton]

Even robbed of one, possibly two, legit knockdowns Bonavena won the decision and won it correctly. He was better than Chuvalo. I will never understand why some people are so die-hard chuvalo fans. At every stage of his career he lost or drew with every top guy he fought and some who werent top guys with the exception of Quarry and that KO is one of the strangest in history especially considering Quarry was absolutely kicking the living shit out of george every step of the way. I guess if you love a guy for simply being tough then so be it but that doesnt make him a good fighter or a good boxer, it just means he could absorb a good ass kicking, and he usually did when he wasnt being fed local canadian fodder.

[mcvey]

Juan LaPorte's is the best in my book, he stood up to numerous punchers over the course of his whole career and as far as I know was never dropped, and I cannot recall a time he was hurt.
He was hurt multiple times aginst Pedroza ,but Eusebio was aiming at a different target than his chin!

[Senya13]

He was staggered. What Hearns followed up wasn't big punches, he only landed one big punch the whole round. People are acting as if Hagler ate one big right hand after another the whole round.

[Manassa]

He was staggered. What Hearns followed up wasn't big punches, he only landed one big punch the whole round. People are acting as if Hagler ate one big right hand after another the whole round.

Stagger my arse. Tyson near the end of the tenth round against Holyfield, that's staggering.

And I didn't say they were big punches, but they were punches nonetheless, in quick succession. After that even, Hearns was landing solid shots.

But we have many examples of Hagler's durability to fall upon, not just this fight.

[Sweet Pea]

Senya making an ass of himself yet again. What a fool.

As far as Hagler/Hart, maybe I need to rewatch it, but I don't recall Hagler ever being staggered or in any kind of trouble throughout the fight, and I thought he handled Hart very well and completely outboxed him. He'd get hung up on the ropes in certain parts and take some huge shots, but he never seemed very effected once he made his way out. Just back to the usual.

Chuvalo had a great chin, but he did show certain vulnerabilities in that sense of ultimate toughness against Frazier, something I don't think a guy like LaMotta would've done. I generally think LaMotta had the best chin (and was the flat out toughest SOB) of all time. Question for Russell, I remember you making a remark after someone said the same, basically questioning, in an almost condescending tone, how someone could consider LaMotta's chin the best? How couldn't you is my question?

[Senya13]

Solid shots with injured right hand? That's something new. Hearns' left wasn't as big as his right.

There may be more examples, but whenever someone starts talking about Hagler's chin, they always use 1st round with Hearns as main argument.

[Manassa]

Solid shots with injured right hand? That's something new. Hearns' left wasn't as big as his right.

There may be more examples, but whenever someone starts talking about Hagler's chin, they always use 1st round with Hearns as main argument.

He could still throw big right hooks, the way they landed weren't hurting his fist.

[mcvey]

Solid shots with injured right hand? That's something new. Hearns' left wasn't as big as his right.

There may be more examples, but whenever someone starts talking about Hagler's chin, they always use 1st round with Hearns as main argument.
Hagler's chin is on a par with Lamotta's imo,both first rate.

[Manassa]

Normally people talk about the fourth round Mugabi uppercut that snapped back Hagler's head (to no visible nervous effect however), but there's a mid-exchange left hook in round six that looked much worse. Really jolts Hagler, seems to do absolutely nothing to him though, infact he didn't even stop punching and a couple of seconds later he has Mugabi reeling backwards into the ropes.

[rydersonthestorm]

why is nobody giving wayne the respect he deserves he has been in with naz and morales both massive puncher for their relative size.

[Mendoza]

Even robbed of one, possibly two, legit knockdowns Bonavena won the decision and won it correctly. He was better than Chuvalo. I will never understand why some people are so die-hard chuvalo fans. At every stage of his career he lost or drew with every top guy he fought and some who werent top guys with the exception of Quarry and that KO is one of the strangest in history especially considering Quarry was absolutely kicking the living shit out of george every step of the way. I guess if you love a guy for simply being tough then so be it but that doesnt make him a good fighter or a good boxer, it just means he could absorb a good ass kicking, and he usually did when he wasnt being fed local canadian fodder.

I agree with all of this, except for the Canadian fodder part. A trial horse is fodder regardless of his country of origination.

[Mendoza]

Senya making an ass of himself yet again. What a fool.

As far as Hagler/Hart, maybe I need to rewatch it, but I don't recall Hagler ever being staggered or in any kind of trouble throughout the fight, and I thought he handled Hart very well and completely outboxed him. He'd get hung up on the ropes in certain parts and take some huge shots, but he never seemed very effected once he made his way out. Just back to the usual.

Chuvalo had a great chin, but he did show certain vulnerabilities in that sense of ultimate toughness against Frazier, something I don't think a guy like LaMotta would've done. I generally think LaMotta had the best chin (and was the flat out toughest SOB) of all time. Question for Russell, I remember you making a remark after someone said the same, basically questioning, in an almost condescending tone, how someone could consider LaMotta's chin the best? How couldn't you is my question?

Although few talk about it, LaMotta once quit in a fight too. Jake had a great chin for sure.

Hagler was never staggered by Hearns.

[burywh|te]

Chuvalo's chin is the best in heavyweight history. 97 fights, never knocked down, and was in the top ten of heavyweight boxing for 17 years! Fought Ali twice, Quarry, Jones, Frazier, Bonavena, Foreman, Williams, Durelle... He took on the best in the era when boxing was best. Haven't seen anyone's chin really come close to his... Remember its not just a 'chin' but your stability, how you work your legs, your neck muscles, your jaw, and how you stay balanced as you fight. Chuvalo deserves more credit. He was an awesome fighter..

[My2Sense]

He was stopped by the two best punchers he faced in a combined 7 rounds. Ref stoppage in the Foreman fight, in the Frazier fight he literally turned his back from Joe once his cheekbone was injured and that was that.

The epitome of an elite, ATG chin is being unaffected by punches. Completely.

Shaver's vs. Cobb is a perfect example. A certified, top tier power punching fighter in Shaver's hitting Cobb with everything he has and Cobb not so much as taking a step back. Total disregard for the other mans power no matter how scary it is.


I don't agree with that definition, and your comparison is a shaky one IMO.

There's a number of factors that can lead a fighter to be stopped. A solid chin alone won't prevent it. Chuvalo had no defense and no foot movement to get away from punishment. He was just a sitting duck for big punchers like Frazier and Foreman to tee off on.

Also, as you yourself pointed out, Frazier hurt Chuvalo with a punch that landed on his cheek, not his chin. The way I look at it, Chuvalo was hit with a punch hard enough to break his cheek and eye socket, but didn't go down.

You're also comparing to world class HOF heavyweights ranked among the best ever, just about reaching their primes, to a guy (Shavers) who was basically washed up and was never considered in Foreman/Frazier's class to begin with anyway. Unlike Cobb, Chuvalo was getting hit with powerpunches from fighters with talent, world class skill, and precision accuracy. On top of that, Chuvalo was slightly past his prime when he fought Foreman, and that fact that his chin was still as good as it was at that time given all the punishment he took through his career is still a credit to him.

On top of that, you're only looking at two select fights from Chuvalo and one from Cobb. What about the fact that Cobb has been down in other fights and has been KO'd as well (and not by HOFers)?

IMO, Chuvalo definitely has a better chin than Cobb.

[My2Sense]

Chuvalo's chin is the best in heavyweight history. 97 fights, never knocked down, and was in the top ten of heavyweight boxing for 17 years! Fought Ali twice, Quarry, Jones, Frazier, Bonavena, Foreman, Williams, Durelle... He took on the best in the era when boxing was best. Haven't seen anyone's chin really come close to his...

I would put LaMotta's chin on par with his. IMO, he and LaMotta are neck-and-neck for the title of "best chin ever". But there's a fair amount of distance between them and everyone else's chin.

[My2Sense]

Although few talk about it, LaMotta once quit in a fight too. Jake had a great chin for sure.

Hagler was never staggered by Hearns.

LaMotta actually quit in two fights, Murphy and Nardico - three if you count his loss to Billy Fox.

The way I would describe Hagler against Hearns was "stunned briefly". He never lost his balance, and looked to have recovered even as Hearns followed up with a solid flurry of punches.

[JohnThomas1]

Hearns only landed one big punch on Hagler, and it was enough to stagger him. We can only speculate what would have happened if Hearns didn't injure his hand with that punch, maybe if he landed a couple more punches as a follow up Hagler would go down, we'll never know.

He certainly never landed the perfect right hand such as the one that despatched Duran from his senses. Landed some good ones, but not his absolute Sunday best.

[Mendoza]

IMO, Chuvalo definitely has a better chin than Cobb.

Welcome to the board My2Sense.

What if the question was who is harder to stop? Under the context of the question defense, stamina and heart come into play. Here I believe Cobb is superior to Chavalo.

Would you agree that Cobb is harder to stop?

[Doppleganger]

Hagler himself has stated there's been times he's been hurt to the point where he didn't know what round it was, might have even said where he was as well. This was pre Hearns and unfortunately he didn't elaborate what fight or fights.
I also read in an old boxing magazine (might have been KO or Boxing '89) that Hagler said that the 2 best fighters he ever faced was Duran and Hearns and of Hearns he said, "that guy can whack!" He didn't say whether Tommy was the hardest puncher he faced but I think it's clear that Tommy got his attention in the opening 30 seconds of that first round.

[Russell]

I would put LaMotta's chin on par with his. IMO, he and LaMotta are neck-and-neck for the title of "best chin ever". But there's a fair amount of distance between them and everyone else's chin.

You're bumfuck nuts if you think LaMotta had the greatest chin of all time.

Methinks you need to dig into more obscure fighters.

[My2Sense]

Would you agree that Cobb is harder to stop?

No I wouldn't actually.

I could easily see a prime Frazier or Foreman stopping Cobb the exact same way.

[My2Sense]

You're bumfuck nuts if you think LaMotta had the greatest chin of all time.

Methinks you need to dig into more obscure fighters.

Like who?

And what exactly disqualifies LaMotta from having one of the best chins ever?

[Mendoza]

No I wouldn't actually.

I could easily see a prime Frazier or Foreman stopping Cobb the exact same way.
I doubt Frazier could stop Cobb as quickly as he did to Chavalo. That to me is a real reach.

Maybe an " on " Foreman could stop Cobb quickly. There would be a chance of Cobb pulling off an accidental rope a dope to Foreman. Cobb wasn't bothered by Shavers much, and took some clean flush shots from Holmes.

IMO, Cobb was a tad harder to stop than Chavalo. The two best punchers Chavlo meet stopped in rather quickly. If Chavalo was a durable and tough as legand says, these results are odd.

[groove]

Watch the punches Chuvalo took from the young monster hitting Foreman. anyone else would have been floored.

[Russell]

Like who?

And what exactly disqualifies LaMotta from having one of the best chins ever?

Like who? Like Marion Wilson. Like Joey Maxim.

Fighters like Marion Wilson had nothing but their chin to carry them through. LaMotta was skilled, ring savvy and had a huge size advantage over quite a few fighters he fought.

As for what disqualifies him?

Lamotta was stopped three times. Four if you want to get into the Fox pissing game.

Not stunned, not buzzed, he was stopped.

No shame in getting stopped by Robinson, he also stopped iron chinned fighters like Fullmer. But the fact remains that he was stopped, at completely different times in his career.

And you know what? Carmen Basilio was a welterweight. A legitimate welterweight. Not a drained LHW fighting middleweights like LaMotta. A natural 30 pounds less then Lamotta if not even more and he went 30 rounds with Robinson.

Consider most of LaMotta's matches with Robinson were 10 rounders and the one 15 rounder they had Robinson stopped him. Basilio managed that feat twice, as in going 15 rounds with Ray.

Again, you're fucking crazy if you don't think the P4P equation should factor into what a great chin is and isn't.

[My2Sense]

I doubt Frazier could stop Cobb as quickly as he did to Chavalo. That to me is a real reach.

Maybe an " on " Foreman could stop Cobb quickly. There would be a chance of Cobb pulling off an accidental rope a dope to Foreman. Cobb wasn't bothered by Shavers much, and took some clean flush shots from Holmes.

IMO, Cobb was a tad harder to stop than Chavalo. The two best punchers Chavlo meet stopped in rather quickly. If Chavalo was a durable and tough as legand says, these results are odd.

Is that neceassarily a mark against Chuvalo? In other words, it took the best punchers Chuvalo fought to stop him quickly. Cobb has been stopped quickly too, but not by the best punchers he's fought.

As already said, Shavers was shot when he fought Cobb. While he was still a dangerous puncher, his punches appeared to be losing some of the power and sharpness that they had in his prime. Bernardo Mercado had survived the same barrages of punches before that, and he certainly wasn't "unknockoutable".

Standing up to Holmes' punches for 15 rounds is equivalent to standing up to Ali's for the same distance, plus Chuvalo went another 12 rounds with Ali when Chuvalo was definitely past his prime.

In general, Chuvalo has fought waaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy more elite fighters in his career. In addition to Ali (twice), Foreman and Frazier, there was also Doug Jones, Jimmy Ellis, Quarry, Terrell, Bonavena, Patterson, etc., etc., when all were still considered good live contenders. By contrast, Cobb fought Holmes, Douglas, and Dokes, and Norton and Shavers when both were nearly used up, and that's pretty much it. And after getting stopped for the first time in his career, he was content to fight at the clubfighter level for the rest of his career, whereas Chuvalo continued to fight at the top level after both stoppage losses and even when past his prime.

[Russell]

Cobb was stopped quickly when he needed to flop down to collect money for coke.

Shaver's wasn't shot when he fought Cobb and it'd ridiculous to say he was. Past prime, definitely. Useless? Negative.

Last thing to go is power and Shaver's was THE numero uno power punching in HW history. He still had that power against Cobb and he ate everything he had without a problem.

I really don't see how you can watch that fight, with Cobb being hit so hard his entire body is being spun around like some kind of cartoon and say his chin isn't one of the best of all time.

[Russell]

Also, Chuvalo wasn't half as hard to hit as Cobb.

No doubt Cobb took more punishment in 15 then Chuvalo ever did against Ali. Ali took more damage then Chuvalo probably did during that fight, regardless of losing the fight. Chuvalo's bodywork had Ali pissing blood.

Cobb had zero head movement going for him. Chuvalo was more skilled then most give him credit for, and that's another thing that needs to be factored into chins.

[My2Sense]

Like who? Like Marion Wilson. Like Joey Maxim.

Fighters like Marion Wilson had nothing but their chin to carry them through. LaMotta was skilled, ring savvy and had a huge size advantage over quite a few fighters he fought.

I guess that undoes your point about Joey Maxim, who had even more skill/savvy than LaMotta, yet was stopped in one round by Curtis Sheppard and was down several times against Bobo Olson, who he had a huge size advantage over and was never a big puncher to begin with anyway.

What about all the fights in which LaMotta didn't have a "huge size advantage"? What about the fights in which he was in fact the smaller man? What about the fights in which he was the smaller man and basically shot, but still demonstrated an iron chin?

When did Marion Wilson ever stand up to the extended horrific punishment from the P4P greatest fighter ever that LaMotta did in his last fight with Robinson, even just in the last 3 rounds?


As for what disqualifies him?

Lamotta was stopped three times. Four if you want to get into the Fox pissing game.

Not stunned, not buzzed, he was stopped.

Why should that "disqualify" him? There's a lot of reasons for fighter to be stopped, chin is only one of them. In none of those fights (even when he was floored by Nardico, when well past his best) was his chin the reason he was stopped.

You're not even looking at what he showed in his fights at all, you're just looking at figures on paper and making an assumption. And even then, it's still a questionable assumption.


No shame in getting stopped by Robinson, he also stopped iron chinned fighters like Fullmer. But the fact remains that he was stopped, at completely different times in his career.

And you know what? Carmen Basilio was a welterweight. A legitimate welterweight. Not a drained LHW fighting middleweights like LaMotta. A natural 30 pounds less then Lamotta if not even more and he went 30 rounds with Robinson.

And you know what? Robinson was a faint echo when he fought Basilio compared to what he had been when he stopped LaMotta. LaMotta stood up to even more punishment against a much younger Robinson than Basilio did against a much older and badly faded Robinson.

Not only are you only looking at figures on paper, but you're just cherry picking your facts on top of that. What about the fact that Basilio has been down against both Fullmer and Pender, or sent wobbling all over the ring by Tony DeMarco in his prime weight at 147? At the same stage in his career that Basilio was being floored by Fullmer and Pender (neither of whom were considered great punchers at middleweight), LaMotta was standing up to vicious punishment from Bob Murphy (considered among the hardest hitting light-heavies never to win the title) in two fights and not going down, and even managing to win one of those fights?


Again, you're fucking crazy if you don't think the P4P equation should factor into what a great chin is and isn't.

So what do you have to say about hard hitting light-heavy Bob Murphy's failure to floor an already shopworn LaMotta in two tries? What about the fact that LaMotta walked through Bob Satterfield's best punches and stopped him, with Satterfield being among the P4P hardest hitting fighters in history?

[My2Sense]

I really don't see how you can watch that fight, with Cobb being hit so hard his entire body is being spun around like some kind of cartoon and say his chin isn't one of the best of all time.
Whether his chin is one of the best of all time isn't the question.

It's whether it was the best, or at least better than Chuvalo's.

And no, and I wouldn't look at that one fight and say his chin was better than Chuvalo's, at least not with any certainty.

[Russell]

Your posts are made up in large part to assumption, before you slap that label onto me.

Robinson is the consensus greatest fighter of all time, instantly giving your argument tons of credibility right off the bat, right?

Oi'. Way to leave these points debatable and up for discussion.

LaMotta standing up to Satterfield is in my opinion his best durability showing by far, but to be honest I think it's got next to nothing on Maxim going a combined 45 rounds against Archie Moore at the very end of Maxim's career.

As in Archie Moore the heavyweight killer. Power AND precision. Lasting 7 against Satterfield is one thing, going 45 against Archie Moore is another, even not counting Satterfield being one of the times ultimate hot and cold performers.

Great, LaMotta fought on until he was shopworn but at that point he folded. His chin gave out. Maxim's did so less times then LaMotta, while having more career fights then him AND a few hundred more rounds fought then him.

In my opinion that's a recipe that shows me his chin was better then LaMotta's.

Also, Maxim's chin took Satterifeld's just fine as well.

And the Curtis Shepard match? Sandwiched in-between that stoppage was Maxim twice going 10 rounds against Shepard and winning, not to mention that being in the very, very beginning of Maxim's career.

[Russell]

To clarify I feel LaMotta's chin is among the best of all time, definitely in that breath. But I feel there are chins that are better, by whatever margin.

[Russell]

Maxim also had another match against a legitimate puncher in Floyd Patterson.

[groove]

foreman destroyed frazier and any other fighter with the punches Chuvalo took. Ali was smart. If Ali took those punches that Chuvalo took he would be out. Chuvalo was taking constant big punches from one of the hardest punchers of all time and was still standing. the ref and corner stopped the fight not Chuvalo. Boy could he take it. Until you take full blown punches from a peak Foreman then you can talk shit all you like but Chuvalo proved he had some mighty chin. I still can't believe how the guy was still standing.

[My2Sense]

Your posts are made up in large part to assumption, before you slap that label onto me.

Robinson is the consensus greatest fighter of all time, instantly giving your argument tons of credibility right off the bat, right?

Oi'. Way to leave these points debatable and up for discussion.

LaMotta standing up to Satterfield is in my opinion his best durability showing by far, but to be honest I think it's got next to nothing on Maxim going a combined 45 rounds against Archie Moore at the very end of Maxim's career.

As in Archie Moore the heavyweight killer. Power AND precision. Lasting 7 against Satterfield is one thing, going 45 against Archie Moore is another, even not counting Satterfield being one of the times ultimate hot and cold performers.

Great, LaMotta fought on until he was shopworn but at that point he folded. His chin gave out. Maxim's did so less times then LaMotta, while having more career fights then him AND a few hundred more rounds fought then him.

In my opinion that's a recipe that shows me his chin was better then LaMotta's.

Also, Maxim's chin took Satterifeld's just fine as well.

And the Curtis Shepard match? Sandwiched in-between that stoppage was Maxim twice going 10 rounds against Shepard and winning, not to mention that being in the very, very beginning of Maxim's career.
Whether or not you believe Robinson is the greatest fighter or simply one of the very greatest fighters doesn't detract from how impressive it was that LaMotta stood up to him in their final fight.

As I said earlier, your comparison between LaMotta and Maxim blatantly contradicts another point you keeping making in this thread about skill/craft affecting a fighter's ability to negate punishment.

In all three fights with Moore, Maxim being tall and rangy was able to grab hold or tie up Moore after almost every time Moore caught him flush. And that was something Maxim was able to do throughout his career - provided he even needed to, if he still had his footwork to move away. There was no point in any of Maxim's 45 rounds with Moore that he simply stood defenseless and took punch after punch after punch on his chin, like LaMotta did in the last three rounds of his last fight with Robinson. And incidentally, I'd say that fight (not Satterfield) was LaMotta's greatest display of chin, and very arguably the greatest display of chin by any fighter ever. Robinson landed dozens of the kind of punches in succession, that had KO'd guys like Fullmer, Olson, and Graziano with only one or two punches, and LaMotta being short and stumpy plus totally exhausted, stood there defenselessly and took punch after punch flush on the chin, without rolling or slipping with them at all. And yet Robinson couldn't knock him off his feet.

It's not accurate to say LaMotta's chin "folded" in the first fight with Murphy. He quit on his stool. More accurately, his will or desire is what folded. His chin stood up under all the punishment that was given in that fight, which was considerable.

I would say it's more accurate to say Maxim's chin folded in his losses to Bobo Olson, when he was dropped by a blown up fighter who was never considered a big puncher even at his normal weight.

Maxim had more fights than LaMotta, but that doesn't automatically mean his chin was tested/proven more. Nor does the fact that he was stopped less. Maxim was more skilled and physically gifted, and did far better job at avoiding/negating punishment throughout his career than LaMotta did. LaMotta's chin was tested far more consistently and thoroughly throughout his career than Maxim's was.

Yes, it was very early in Maxim's career that he was KO'd. But then, LaMotta wasn't KO'd quick like that at any stage in his career (early or late) and was also fighting men above his weight class since early in his career as well. And yes, Maxim did go the distance with him around the same time that he was KO'd by him. Just like LaMotta came back and beat Murphy in a rematch as well.

[red cobra]

Some credit should, in my opinion go to Carlos Monzon when great chins are being discussed. Monzon fought more times and at a higher level than anyone mentioned yet, and was NEVER stopped. I believe he took no more than 4 knockdowns in his entire career. The last one was a shot in the 2nd round of his rematch with Valdez, short right hand that would have been too much for most fighters, but Carlos bounced up without a count and went on to win the fight. Other contenders for great chin honors should include Kid Gavilan (never stopped) and Billy Graham (never floored OR stopped).

[JohnThomas1]

Some credit should, in my opinion go to Carlos Monzon when great chins are being discussed. Monzon fought more times and at a higher level than anyone mentioned yet, and was NEVER stopped. I believe he took no more than 4 knockdowns in his entire career. The last one was a shot in the 2nd round of his rematch with Valdez, short right hand that would have been too much for most fighters, but Carlos bounced up without a count and went on to win the fight. Other contenders for great chin honors should include Kid Gavilan (never stopped) and Billy Graham (never floored OR stopped).

Monzon prolly hasn't been mentioned because the thread highlights a heavyweight. By the same token Harry Greb would probably be mentioned even before Monzon.

[bigjake]

foreman destroyed frazier and any other fighter with the punches Chuvalo took. Ali was smart. If Ali took those punches that Chuvalo took he would be out. Chuvalo was taking constant big punches from one of the hardest punchers of all time and was still standing. the ref and corner stopped the fight not Chuvalo. Boy could he take it. Until you take full blown punches from a peak Foreman then you can talk shit all you like but Chuvalo proved he had some mighty chin. I still can't believe how the guy was still standing.

it's pretty clear to me chuvalo's chin was 1 of the best if not the best of all time.some ppl on here are trying to make cases for other fighters i think,but i watched chuvalo fight man that guy was strong and durable.his chest measured over 49"expanded when he was in shape

[timmers612]

Hmm, maybe my2 and Russell will end up finding which of the two has a better chin. Groove, good post. Chuvalo after the stoppage with Foreman said he was just waiting for George to tire and ya know, I think he meant it. He indicated he wasn't hurt and wanted it to continue. How big is that, Fred Askew who was ko'd by a young Foreman made this comparison. As a teenager on a Tennesee farm he was kicked in the head by an enraged horse and didn't wake up for two days. Freddie said George hit harder.