View Full Version : Crossed armed defense...?
Russell
08-06-2007, 11:21 PM
As in what Archie Moore created and Foreman used during his comeback.
Who else uses it?
What are it's benefits?
Weaknesses?
Marnoff
08-07-2007, 12:05 AM
I enjoy watching Moore use this and trying it on my own.
Dempsey1238
08-07-2007, 12:23 AM
Very weak vs the Swarmer types of fighters like Fraizer or Marciano or Armstrong imo.
AnthonyJ74
08-07-2007, 12:24 AM
you can't punch back from that position. For a guy that has huge arms - like Foreman - it would be a good thing, but you still have to unspool your arms in order to punch.
Actually Foreman didn't use the cross-armed style very successfully during his comeback. It worked miserably against Holyfield. Against Moorer, Big George returned to a more convention high hands defense, catching and trapping punches in his gloves.
Ken Norton used a type of cross-armed style. It didn't work well for him because with his long arms it cost him a split second to untangle from defense to go on offense. It also forced him to "fight short," ducking his head, instead of fighting tall.
For tall fighters it's usually better to fight tall, using their height and reach. If they're not quick enough to duck, dodge and slip punches, boxers like Winky Wright have proven the high hands defense works well.
For Archie Moore, Joe Frazier, Dwight Muhammad Qawi and other fireplug shaped fighters, the cross-armed style works well.
Seamus
08-07-2007, 01:09 AM
I think Lex said it all.
OLD FOGEY
08-07-2007, 03:24 AM
Gene Fullmer was another who used it.
Duodenum
08-07-2007, 10:41 AM
Paulino Uzcudun used it, in part because he couldn't straighten his left arm completely due to an early wood chopping accident. Years later, Joe Frazier was another who couldn't completely straighten his left, and that may be the reason behind his using it. Archie Moore was probably the most defensively skilled of the cross armed stylists. Generally, it works best when the user has fast reflexes, or tremendous strength.
What I'm curious to know is who used it before Uzcudun? (If anybody.)
Sam Dixon
08-07-2007, 11:19 AM
Max Baer was another fighter who I've seen use that technique with some regularity.
achillesthegreat
08-07-2007, 02:44 PM
Norton and Holyfield.
You can block the uppercut in cross guard.
You can counter from cross guard.
It is a complete and effective guard. People who have been caught with uppercuts or not countering from it simply aren't great at it.
You will see many fighters employ it for moments but not fight exclusively out of it i.e. Cintron and Cotto.
It is a complete and effective guard. People who have been caught with uppercuts or not countering from it simply aren't great at it.
Sure. As long as you keep your chin very low. But still your temple is very vulnerable. So, maybe effective in some way, but complete not at all.
Manassa
08-07-2007, 03:46 PM
The Archie Moore type defence is great when applied effectively. Gene Fullmer and George Foreman used to use it for pure block value, but they didn't master the counters like Moore. At first it seems like punching from such a position (arms crossing the body) could be ineffective, but there is a vital facet that needs to be explored; angles. Moore used the correct body angles and waist movement that needed to be combined with the arm defence and that's how he was able to get off counter punches without sacrificing speed.
The main advantages of using such a defence are unorthodoxity (hard for opponents to adapt to) and alternative blocking angles. For instance, Moore found it was hard to protect his operation scar using the conventional guard, so he evolved his defence to cover that vulnerable area. Gene Fullmer, as a shorter fighter, developed the defence as a means of plowing through his opponents' uppercuts. Contrary to popular belief, proper use of the cross-arm defence makes an adept uppercut deterrent - nobody likes hitting elbows.
achillesthegreat
08-07-2007, 03:54 PM
Sure. As long as you keep your chin very low. But still your temple is very vulnerable. So, maybe effective in some way, but complete not at all.
A fighter should keep his chin low but not necessarily all the time. That is part of the reason they can be open to uppercuts.
The right glove catches everything. The outside of the glove stops left hooks and uppercuts, the inside of the glove stops jabs, straights and rights. This is before you've introduced the fighters left shoulder, elbows, forearms, head movement etc
Head is completely blocked from both sides when the fight chooses to block. The left side of the head is blocked via two methods. The shoulder blocks the chin and the right glove crosses across the face to block the temple.
I maintain, it is just as complete as the other guards. For me I think a fighter needs to master all the guards.
Head is completely blocked from both sides when the fight chooses to block. The left side of the head is blocked via two methods. The shoulder blocks the chin and the right glove crosses across the face to block the temple.
Yeah, only if you have the skills of Reed Richards of the Fantastic Four team.
Man,the crossed arm def can't be performed without neglecting any area of the head. Either your chin is vulnerable to uppercuts or any temple to hooks. It surely is a perfect block against hooks to the chin,but still there are some weak points. Furthermore it leaves your body totally uncovered for body shots.
The Archie Moore type defence is great when applied effectively. Gene Fullmer and George Foreman used to use it for pure block value, but they didn't master the counters like Moore. At first it seems like punching from such a position (arms crossing the body) could be ineffective, but there is a vital facet that needs to be explored; angles. Moore used the correct body angles and waist movement that needed to be combined with the arm defence and that's how he was able to get off counter punches without sacrificing speed.
Yeah,that's why Archie lost to Patterson,Marciano,Charles,Bivins,Burley,Booker and Chase.
Manassa
08-07-2007, 08:58 PM
Yeah,that's why Archie lost to Patterson,Marciano,Charles,Bivins,Burley,Booker and Chase.
What an idiotic statement.
JohnThomas1
08-08-2007, 04:49 AM
Witherspoon used a hybrid vs Holmes at times. Picked off the jab quite well with the right glove in front of his face.
Mendoza
08-08-2007, 06:13 AM
As in what Archie Moore created and Foreman used during his comeback.
Who else uses it?
What are it's benefits?
Weaknesses?
It’s a good cover up defense, especially when a fighter is hurt on the ropes or corners. Fighters with big arms can be good at this type of defense is they work at it. The trouble with the cross armed defense style is unlike a conventional guard, and fighter has to “ uncross “ his arms to mount an offense in most cases.
achillesthegreat
08-08-2007, 07:59 AM
Yeah, only if you have the skills of Reed Richards of the Fantastic Four team.
Man,the crossed arm def can't be performed without neglecting any area of the head. Either your chin is vulnerable to uppercuts or any temple to hooks. It surely is a perfect block against hooks to the chin,but still there are some weak points. Furthermore it leaves your body totally uncovered for body shots.
I've explained to you how to block from all angles. That signalled the end of our two way.
What an idiotic statement.
If Archie Moore is your best example for perfect crossed arm def then you have to admit that your example lacks some logic.
Manassa
08-08-2007, 09:54 AM
If Archie Moore is your best example for perfect crossed arm def then you have to admit that your example lacks some logic.
Hmm, no. Your statement is what lacks knowledge:
Yeah,that's why Archie lost to Patterson,Marciano,Charles,Bivins,Burley,Booker and Chase.
Can't I just say 'Ray Robinson used a conventional guard but lost to LaMotta, Turpin, Basilio, Fullmer, Jones and Maxim'? Yes, I think I can.
I've explained to you how to block from all angles. That signalled the end of our two way.
There is NO def method that covers every area of your head and body without being forced to react. That's why Moore was regarded a slow mummy,period.
Manassa
08-08-2007, 09:58 AM
There is NO def method that covers every area of your head and body without being forced to react. That's why Moore was regarded a slow mummy,period.
Who regarded Moore as a slow mummy?
Can't I just say 'Ray Robinson used a conventional guard but lost to LaMotta, Turpin, Basilio, Fullmer, Jones and Maxim'? Yes, I think I can.
Sure you can. Read my post above.
Who regarded Moore as a slow mummy?
He was,trust me. If you have to compare Patterson/Moore then Moore is like Tut Ench Amun.
Manassa
08-08-2007, 10:04 AM
Sure you can. Read my post above.
I've read it, and am still not enlightened nor impressed.
Manassa
08-08-2007, 10:07 AM
He was,trust me. If you have to compare Patterson/Moore then Moore is like Tut Ench Amun.
'Trust me' :lol:
That doesn't back up your statement. Again - who regarded Moore as a slow mummy?
As for Patterson-Moore... Well firstly, Moore was past his prime by that point in his career and was jumping weights like an obese anorexic. Second; Patterson was one of the fastest ever at around 190lbs - because Moore was slower, it doesn't mean he was slow.
Infact, Moore was quick during his more successful days. He wasn't lightning fast, but he was nowhere near slow either. Not at all.
I've read it, and am still not enlightened nor impressed.
Good. Now do you have any other example for a perfect crossed arm def displaying it as a wonder-def?
Again - who regarded Moore as a slow mummy?
Anyone who has ANY knowledge of boxing or human sense which you obviously lack both.
:patsch
Do you feel offended?
Contrary to popular belief, proper use of the cross-arm defence makes an adept uppercut deterrent - nobody likes hitting elbows.
That's for damned sure. My wrists still ache, 25 years since my last amateur bout, from hitting elbows while going for the ribs. When you see guys with hand/wrist problems, like Floyd Mayweather (and Gatti, late in his career), back off for a second and shake their hand after throwing a punch, you can bet they've gotten a "stinger" from either hitting an elbow, forearm or punching with the wrist slightly cocked.
Manassa
08-08-2007, 11:07 AM
Good. Now do you have any other example for a perfect crossed arm def displaying it as a wonder-def?
When did I ever say it was a perfect defence?
As I said before, it's a difficult technique to master, but in the right hands it can be just as effective as a conventional guard. There are weaknesses, but there are also strengths.
Anyone who has ANY knowledge of boxing or human sense which you obviously lack both.
No, please, I'm desperate to hear this. Who - specifically - called Moore a slow mummy? Where on film do you see Moore being a slow mummy?
Who - specifically - called Moore a slow mummy? Where on film do you see Moore being a slow mummy?
You're funny man. :rofl :patsch
But to answer your qu: His manager told me. :yep
Shake
08-08-2007, 11:27 AM
*yawn*
People like KTFO are boring. Take eight parts bluster, one part arrogance and one part of genuine substance, mix, blend and mass-produce. You end up with a legion of people who've watched a fight or two in their day and enjoy being contrary for the sake of being cross with everyone they meet.
:good
You go, slugger.
People like KTFO are boring. Take eight parts bluster, one part arrogance and one part of genuine substance, mix, blend and mass-produce. You end up with a legion of people who've watched a fight or two in their day and enjoy being contrary for the sake of being cross with everyone they meet.
Brilliant man. :rofl
But it's hard to be nice when you're as good as I am. :hey
Manassa
08-08-2007, 11:32 AM
You're funny man. :rofl :patsch
But to answer your qu: His manager told me. :yep
You're even funnier, since you can't answer the question. Lying doesn't count.
You're even funnier, since you can't answer the question. Lying doesn't count.
I did. And it was more than the truth. :smooch
Manassa
08-08-2007, 11:41 AM
Trying to fob me off with confusing babble will not work.
Who regarded Moore as a slow mummy?
Trying to fob me off with confusing babble will not work.
Who regarded Moore as a slow mummy?
Did you take your meds today?
Manassa
08-08-2007, 12:25 PM
Who regarded Moore as a slow mummy?
Who regarded Moore as a slow mummy?
:rofl
Take your meds. NOW! :stir
Manassa
08-08-2007, 01:20 PM
You're more evasive than Wilfred Benitez. I'll stop asking now, you've showed yourself up enough as it is. The joke is on you.
achillesthegreat
08-08-2007, 02:19 PM
*yawn*
People like KTFO are boring. Take eight parts bluster, one part arrogance and one part of genuine substance, mix, blend and mass-produce. You end up with a legion of people who've watched a fight or two in their day and enjoy being contrary for the sake of being cross with everyone they meet.
:good
You go, slugger.
lol
jedijojo
08-08-2007, 03:07 PM
Damn, it was a nice thread, until KTFO ruined it with his childish behaviour.
Damn, it was a nice thread, until KTFO ruined it with his childish behaviour.
You have to appreciate my holy opinion.
BTW,insisting that Moore wasn't a lame mummy is childish enough.
Bill1234
08-08-2007, 09:36 PM
As in what Archie Moore created and Foreman used during his comeback.
Who else uses it?
What are it's benefits?
Weaknesses?
Ken Norton used it. I guess it would be akward to hit the person with.
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