(prime)DEMPSEY-FITZ-JEFFRIES

[pugilist_boyd]

Now This Is The Prime Versions Not The Old Alfalfa Farmer Jeffries Or The Civilized Dempsey,i Think A Bloodied Dempsey Finally Catches Fitz -we Already Know Jeffries Vs Fitz But Jeffries Vs Dempsey Im Undecided I Think Maybe Dempsey By Long Grueling Bloody War,in This Era Tko Is Likely Outcome But Lets Say The Real War Days Of?19oo You Can Thro Rocky In If U Like

[Maxmomer]

I think Dempsey beats them all. Jeffries would be a tough nut to crack, but I'd pick Dempsey by late stoppage.

[Loewe]

Jeffries beat Fitz
Jeffries would beat Dempsey
Fitz would beat Dempsey

[Ezzard]

Depends on the length of the bouts but over 15 I'd pick Dempsey

[Holmes' Jab]

Jefferies beats Fitz and Dempsey.
Fitz beats Dempsey.
Dempsey beats no-one.
Marciano beats Fitz and Dempsey but loses to Jefferies.

[mcvey]

Now This Is The Prime Versions Not The Old Alfalfa Farmer Jeffries Or The Civilized Dempsey,i Think A Bloodied Dempsey Finally Catches Fitz -we Already Know Jeffries Vs Fitz But Jeffries Vs Dempsey Im Undecided I Think Maybe Dempsey By Long Grueling Bloody War,in This Era Tko Is Likely Outcome But Lets Say The Real War Days Of?19oo You Can Thro Rocky In If U Like
Over 15 rds I think Dempsey catches Fitz and kos him ,he was faster afoot and had a better variety of short punches. Fitz would allways be dangerous ,but his rather static style compares unfavourably with the crouching ,bobbing and weaving Jack's,imo. Jeffries won a lot of fight's by imperviously soaking up punishment ,and then coming on strong to overpower his ,smaller opponents.I don't see Dempsey stopping the Boilermaker ,but I think he takes a decision,due to an early lead on the cards .If the face of Jeffries isn't too badly marked up he probably comes stronger at the finish,with Dempsey starting to fade ,but with enough rounds in the bank to take the win.A tko for Dempsey is possible under 20's rules but it probably goes the route.Imo.

[abraq]

Jeffries did beat Fitz.

Jeffries-Dempsey would be a war. It could go either way, but I will go in for a decision win for Jack over 15 rounds.

Dempsey vs Fitz would be another war. Here, I am more comfortable with a Dempsey win.

Rocky? Would beat Fitz. Maybe Dempsey too. Probably would lose to Jeffries. Too big and strong.

[Ezzard]

Over 15 rds I think Dempsey catches Fitz and kos him ,he was faster afoot and had a better variety of short punches. Fitz would allways be dangerous ,but his rather static style compares unfavourably with the crouching ,bobbing and weaving Jack's,imo. Jeffries won a lot of fight's by imperviously soaking up punishment ,and then coming on strong to overpower his ,smaller opponents.I don't see Dempsey stopping the Boilermaker ,but I think he takes a decision,due to an early lead on the cards .If the face of Jeffries isn't too badly marked up he probably comes stronger at the finish,with Dempsey starting to fade ,but with enough rounds in the bank to take the win.A tko for Dempsey is possible under 20's rules but it probably goes the route.Imo.

I agree with all this.

[guilalah]

I'd favor Dempsey over Jeffries in 15 rounds or less, but no sure thing; over 15 rounds, I couldn't pick.

I'll favor Dempsey over Fitzsimmons but, again, it's no lock.

[marciano1952]

Jeffries beats Fitz, Dempey
Dempsey beats, Fitz

[JIm Broughton]

Fitz loses to both Dempsey and Jeffries but as for Dempsey vs. Jeffries? Put a gun to my head and I'll pick Dempsey but I'm still not sure. Too tough to call IMO. I'm gonna have to think this one over more.

[Dempsey1238]

Call me crazy, but I think Marciano beats all 3 of em.

As for the other bouts,

Dempsey vs Fitz, Fitz would be a danger, but I think Dempsey's speed, and power will end things fast perhaps. I think ko in round 5 or less.

Dempsey vs Jeff, Well here is the burner, I think Jeff beats Dempsey in a 25 or more fight, but in a 15 type of fight, I give Dempsey the edge. Mostly depends on the era of couse.

[janitor]

Obviously there are a lot of variables to take into acount here.

Fitzsimmons while being the man that I rank lowest head to head of the three is also the one that you could least aford to make mistakes against. As a finisher he was far more dangerous than Jeffries and perhaps more dangerous than Dempsey in terms of a exploiting single opening. While Jeffries was probably too durable for Fitz to capitalize on his "finishers chance" as I call it Dempsey wasnt. If Dempsey got caught coming in he could be in trouble. I therfore conclude that Fitz almost certainly wont beat Jeffries (even under ideal circumstances) but he is a dangerous match for Dempsey, who is going to be coming in if Fitz catches him.

Jeffries while being the least effective finisher of the three (all relative of course) is the strongest of the three, with the best stamina and durability. He is perhaps the fastest 220lb man in the history of the sport and has catlike reflexes believe it or not.

A prime Jeffries is not the green version that twice got battered by Fitzsimmons, it is the complete and methodical fighter that dismantled Jim Corbett (second time) and Jack Munroe. This Jeffries is not just durable, he is also a good boxer and ring general. Against this version of Jeffries it is hard to imagine any version of Fitzsimmons winning. Jack Dempsey would have a verry good chance of battering Jeffries into submision because of his devastating early assult, which the human body was simply not designed to withstand. Jeffries will be there to be hit (sort of) but like with Fitzsimmons Dempsey will put himself at risk of being caught coming in. If the fight goes past six rounds then the odds rapidly start to turn in Jeffries favour.

Dempsey is the best all round fighter of the three on paper and if I had to put money down I would pick him over both of them. I would also be concious that both were a considerable risk to him for reasons that I have already outlined. In some ways I would have more worries about him taking on Fitzsimmons than Jeffries because Fitzsimmons was more dangerous if he caught you coming in.

I think that Dempseys rapid assult would probably not permit Fitzsimmons to utilize his methodical reactive style. Simply put Dempsey would get in there too quickly. I also think that Jeffries would probably be too near to harms way, and would have to take too much punishment to get the job done, even with his underrated ring smarts. Having made that prediction I dont think that a fight that went past 10 rounds would be favourable to Dempseys interests against either fighter.

[mcvey]

Obviously there are a lot of variables to take into acount here.

Fitzsimmons while being the man that I rank lowest head to head of the three is also the one that you could least aford to make mistakes against. As a finisher he was far more dangerous than Jeffries and perhaps more dangerous than Dempsey in terms of a exploiting single opening. While Jeffries was probably too durable for Fitz to capitalize on his "finishers chance" as I call it Dempsey wasnt. If Dempsey got caught coming in he could be in trouble. I therfore conclude that Fitz almost certainly wont beat Jeffries (even under ideal circumstances) but he is a dangerous match for Dempsey, who is going to be coming in if Fitz catches him.

Jeffries while being the least effective finisher of the three (all relative of course) is the strongest of the three, with the best stamina and durability. He is perhaps the fastest 220lb man in the history of the sport and has catlike reflexes believe it or not.

A prime Jeffries is not the green version that twice got battered by Fitzsimmons, it is the complete and methodical fighter that dismantled Jim Corbett (second time) and Jack Munroe. This Jeffries is not just durable, he is also a good boxer and ring general. Against this version of Jeffries it is hard to imagine any version of Fitzsimmons winning. Jack Dempsey would have a verry good chance of battering Jeffries into submision because of his devastating early assult, which the human body was simply not designed to withstand. Jeffries will be there to be hit (sort of) but like with Fitzsimmons Dempsey will put himself at risk of being caught coming in. If the fight goes past six rounds then the odds rapidly start to turn in Jeffries favour.

Dempsey is the best all round fighter of the three on paper and if I had to put money down I would pick him over both of them. I would also be concious that both were a considerable risk to him for reasons that I have already outlined. In some ways I would have more worries about him taking on Fitzsimmons than Jeffries because Fitzsimmons was more dangerous if he caught you coming in.

I think that Dempseys rapid assult would probably not permit Fitzsimmons to utilize his methodical reactive style. Simply put Dempsey would get in there too quickly. I also think that Jeffries would probably be too near to harms way, and would have to take too much punishment to get the job done, even with his underrated ring smarts. Having made that prediction I dont think that a fight that went past 10 rounds would be favourable to Dempseys interests against either fighter.
Everyone has their favourites J, and J J Jeffries is certainly one of yours,but how do you explain the vast improvement you see in Jeffries skills from his second fight with a nearly 39 year old Fitz ,[who by the way hadn't fought in 2 years],given that between this fight and his win over a near 37 year old Corbett ,[who also hadn't fought in nearly 3 years].Jeffries didnt fight at all?
One minute he is green in his next fight he is a complete methodical fighter? the fastest big man over 220 lbs? Ali ,many times scaled over that .Was Jeffries faster than Ali? Actually Jeffries NEVER scaled over 220 lbs for a title defence, his heaviest was 220 against Corbett and 219 against the pitiful Monroe.Of the quick heavier Champs, Holmes and Tyson scaled around Jeffries weight check it out ,was Jeffries faster than them? If you think so how ? Since you only have him being used as a punch bag by Johnson to go on .

[Mendoza]

Everyone has their favourites J, and J J Jeffries is certainly one of yours,but how do you explain the vast improvement you see in Jeffries skills from his second fight with a nearly 39 year old Fitz ,[who by the way hadn't fought in 2 years],given that between this fight and his win over a near 37 year old Corbett ,[who also hadn't fought in nearly 3 years].Jeffries didnt fight at all?

One minute he is green in his next fight he is a complete methodical fighter? the fastest big man over 220 lbs? Ali ,many times scaled over that .Was Jeffries faster than Ali? Actually Jeffries NEVER scaled over 220 lbs for a title defence, his heaviest was 220 against Corbett and 219 against the pitiful Monroe.Of the quick heavier Champs, Holmes and Tyson scaled around Jeffries weight check it out ,was Jeffries faster than them? If you think so how ? Since you only have him being used as a punch bag by Johnson to go on .


A few things to correct here.

- Fitz likely loaded his gloves in the 2nd fight.
-Jeffries was at least 240 for the Finnegan title fight.
-Corbett was 33, sharp and in shape for the 1st Jeffries match.
-Ali had some fat on him at 220, Jeffries did not

Opinion: Jeffries skill level got better as champion, and really blossomed toward the tail end of his career.

I think Jeffries beat Fitz ( We know this ), and likely Dempsey too. Dempsey himself did not think he had much of a chance vs Jeffries.

Fitz vs Dempsey is very interesting. Dempsey was a hot and cold type of fighter, but if he's focused and ready, I would pick Demspey to defeat Fitz in a very good match where both people might go down.

[mcvey]

A few things to correct here.

- Fitz likely loaded his gloves in the 2nd fight.
-Jeffries was at least 240 for the Finnegan title fight.
-Corbett was 33, sharp and in shape for the 1st Jeffries match.
-Ali had some fat on him at 220, Jeffries did not

Opinion: Jeffries skill level got better as champion, and really blossomed toward the tail end of his career.

I think Jeffries beat Fitz ( We know this ), and likely Dempsey too. Dempsey himself did not think he had much of a chance vs Jeffries.

Fitz vs Dempsey is very interesting. Dempsey was a hot and cold type of fighter, but if he's focused and ready, I would pick Demspey to defeat Fitz in a very good match where both people might go down.
The Finnegan affair is not listed as a title fight,it was a disgrace actually. The Fitz fight has little bearing on this post as we are discussing Jeffries improvement from then to his next fight versus Corbett.Corbett's first fight with Jeffries is not up for consideration ,the subject is Jeffries Improvement form the SECOND FITZ fight to his NEXT fight,the SECOND one with Corbett. Whether a man has fat on him or not has no bearing WHATSOEVER on this thread, the premise is that Jeffries was the fastest BIG man OVER 220 lbs,I queried this and gave other examples of fast big men around that weight who were Champion.Tyson and Holmes.My question to Janitor was how do you explain the improvement you think Jeffies showed from a green fighter to a complete methodical one.GIVEN HE HAD NO FIGHTS IN BETWEEN? Since you have no footage of Jeffries in actual fights other than his win over Sharkey [last round re enacted], and his demolition by Johnson, what do you base your opinion on? You and Janitor work in tandem defending Old Jeff,I was waiting for your response,its quite conceivable that Jeffries could out last Dempsey ,Jack was a huge admirer of Jeffries,but to say he didnt give himself much chance with the Boilermaker is gilding the lily.Dempsey in his prime thought he could beat King Kong,and so did eveyone else.

[Mendoza]

The Finnegan affair is not listed as a title fight,it was a disgrace actually. The Fitz fight has little bearing on this post as we are discussing Jeffries improvement from then to his next fight versus Corbett.Corbett's first fight with Jeffries is not up for consideration ,the subject is Jeffries Improvement form the SECOND FITZ fight to his NEXT fight,the SECOND one with Corbett. Whether a man has fat on him or not has no bearing WHATSOEVER on this thread, the premise is that Jeffries was the fastest BIG man OVER 220 lbs,I queried this and gave other examples of fast big men around that weight who were Champion.Tyson and Holmes.

My question to Janitor was how do you explain the improvement you think Jeffies showed from a green fighter to a complete methodical one.GIVEN HE HAD NO FIGHTS IN BETWEEN? Since you have no footage of Jeffries in actual fights other than his win over Sharkey [last round re enacted], and his demolition by Johnson, what do you base your opinion on? You and Janitor work in tandem defending Old Jeff,I was waiting for your response,its quite conceivable that Jeffries could out last Dempsey ,Jack was a huge admirer of Jeffries,but to say he didnt give himself much chance with the Boilermaker is gilding the lily.Dempsey in his prime thought he could beat King Kong,and so did eveyone else.


Many title fights are easy. Jeffries had one vs Finnegan, and two others as champion ( Kennedy and Griffin ) where the title was not on the line.

Historians say Jeffries improved as champion. Fleisher said this, and so did the ref and judges or his fights. I think this is enough to say Jeffries did improve as Janitor ascertains.

While I do not think Jeffries was the fastest man over 220 pound ever in a boxing ring, I do think he was quick, had good reflexes, and good hand speed. In a footrace, I recon he was the fastest heavyweight champion of all time. However, I would give hand speed honors to Ail and Holmes over Jeffries.

[guilalah]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

round 2 of Jeffries-Corbett II cites Jeffries improvement in speed and cleverness.

[mcvey]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

round 2 of Jeffries-Corbett II cites Jeffries improvement in speed and cleverness.
I have no problem agreeing that Jeffries improved as his career progressed ,it would have been strange had he not.My argument with Janitor is he says Jeffries went from a green fighter to a cool methodical fighter without any fights in between.Jeffries did do better the second time around against Corbett .SO he should ,Corbett was washed up , all but 37 and inactive for nearly 3 YEARS prior to the fight.Jeffries was 28 and 30 lbs the heavier man,why wouldn't he prevail?

[OLD FOGEY]

Many title fights are easy. Jeffries had one vs Finnegan, and two others as champion ( Kennedy and Griffin ) where the title was not on the line.

Historians say Jeffries improved as champion. Fleisher said this, and so did the ref and judges or his fights. I think this is enough to say Jeffries did improve as Janitor ascertains.

While I do not think Jeffries was the fastest man over 220 pound ever in a boxing ring, I do think he was quick, had good reflexes, and good hand speed. In a footrace, I recon he was the fastest heavyweight champion of all time. However, I would give hand speed honors to Ail and Holmes over Jeffries.

"In a footrace, I reckon he was the fastest heavyweight champion of all time."

How does anyone know this?

Dempsey was allegedly timed at under 10 seconds in a 100 yard dash--a better showing than Jeffries. I don't know if either his or Jeff's alleged times are accurate.

And who knows how fast Johnson or Sharkey or Charles, etc were in footraces. Did anyone time them? Most heavyweight champions were excellent athletes.

Bareknuckle champion John Jackson was world class in his day in sprints and the long jump, but I don't know if they even had stopwatches back then to time them.

[janitor]

[quote=mcvey]Everyone has their favourites J, and J J Jeffries is certainly one of yours,but how do you explain the vast improvement you see in Jeffries skills from his second fight with a nearly 39 year old Fitz ,[who by the way hadn't fought in 2 years],given that between this fight and his win over a near 37 year old Corbett ,[who also hadn't fought in nearly 3 years].Jeffries didnt fight at all?


Jeffries improved over this period because he took on Bob Fitzsimmons as a trainer. Fitz tightened up his game and made him into a more methodical fighter and a better finisher.

Journalists at the time commented that Jeffries displayed "a newfound cleverness" and Jeffries himself said that he esentialy knocked Corbett out with the same punch that Fitz had years earlier which he had learned from the old master.

the fastest big man over 220 lbs? Ali ,many times scaled over that .Was Jeffries faster than Ali?

I was treating Ali as a 210 lb fighter in this context based on his prime weight.

If you can accept this then my point stands.


Actually Jeffries NEVER scaled over 220 lbs for a title defence, his heaviest was 220 against Corbett and 219 against the pitiful Monroe.Of the quick heavier Champs, Holmes and Tyson scaled around Jeffries weight check it out ,was Jeffries faster than them? If you think so how ? Since you only have him being used as a punch bag by Johnson to go on .


Looking at footage Jeffries sparring for Rhulin I think that he had the fastest feet of any of the 220 lb gang (I did not include Holmes and Ali). I also think that he had the best reflexes and ability to judge distances. Probably not the fastest hands.

Can you see where I am coming from here?

[Mendoza]

[quote]


Jeffries improved over this period because he took on Bob Fitzsimmons as a trainer. Fitz tightened up his game and made him into a more methodical fighter and a better finisher.

Journalists at the time commented that Jeffries displayed "a newfound cleverness" and Jeffries himself said that he esentialy knocked Corbett out with the same punch that Fitz had years earlier which he had learned from the old master.



I was treating Ali as a 210 lb fighter in this context based on his prime weight.

If you can accept this then my point stands.



Looking at footage Jeffries sparring for Rhulin I think that he had the fastest feet of any of the 220 lb gang (I did not include Holmes and Ali). I also think that he had the best reflexes and ability to judge distances. Probably not the fastest hands.

Can you see where I am coming from here?

I think your points stand, but one small thing to add, I think Tommy Ryan added more to Jeffries game than Fitz did.

Jeffries can be seen sparring with Ryan. Its a gem, but you have to know where to look!

[mcvey]

[QUOTE]


Jeffries improved over this period because he took on Bob Fitzsimmons as a trainer. Fitz tightened up his game and made him into a more methodical fighter and a better finisher.

Journalists at the time commented that Jeffries displayed "a newfound cleverness" and Jeffries himself said that he esentialy knocked Corbett out with the same punch that Fitz had years earlier which he had learned from the old master.



I was treating Ali as a 210 lb fighter in this context based on his prime weight.

If you can accept this then my point stands.



Looking at footage Jeffries sparring for Rhulin I think that he had the fastest feet of any of the 220 lb gang (I did not include Holmes and Ali). I also think that he had the best reflexes and ability to judge distances. Probably not the fastest hands.

Can you see where I am coming from here?
I don't want to be pedantic J,so let it go.If you want to watch impressive old time training catch Johnson with dumbells in each hand ,sidestepping and feinting ,and that clip is at NORMAL speed.I never read that Fitz added anything to Jeffries game ,maybe Appollack could confirm this or otherwise.Ryan added the crouch,that we know.Ali fought 11 title fights at 220 lbs or over Jeffries fought 1 at 220 ,and an exhibition ,hog fat at around 235lbs against a firghtened to death Finnegan.If Jeffries had such good reflexes and abilty to judge distances how come he looked like he had been through the meat grinder after every major fight? Please don't say it was the small gloves ,Corbett was usually unmarked after a fight.I would contend that
many big heavies of that size had quicker reflexes than Jeffries ,he was known as the IRON MAN ,not the INTUITIVE MAN.

[janitor]

[quote=mcvey]
I never read that Fitz added anything to Jeffries game ,maybe Appollack could confirm this or otherwise.Ryan added the crouch,that we know.


I acept that Tommy Ryan played the biggest role in developing Jeffries style but I think that Fitz rounded off the areas that Ryan never got round to notably ring generalship and finishing.

Ali fought 11 title fights at 220 lbs or over Jeffries fought 1 at 220 ,and an exhibition ,hog fat at around 235lbs against a firghtened to death Finnegan.

I was working on the asumption that Jeffries best weight was around 220 while Ali's best was around 210 when I made my observation.

If you cannot accept this then your point stands but that was where I was coming from.

If Jeffries had such good reflexes and abilty to judge distances how come he looked like he had been through the meat grinder after every major fight? Please don't say it was the small gloves ,Corbett was usually unmarked after a fight.

A come forward fighter is always going to be prone to get hit relative to a backpedlar. Especialy against a guy like Fitz.

What I observe on film of Jeffries sparring is that he repeatedly makes his sparring partner miss by a matter of inches by pulling his head back. You dont do this without exceptional ability to judge distances.


I would contend that many big heavies of that size had quicker reflexes than Jeffries ,he was known as the IRON MAN ,not the INTUITIVE MAN.


I think that if Jeffries had been matched more softly early in his career and had fought on after the Munroe fight we history might have painted a verry diferent picture of him.

I expect Mr Pollacks book to produce a few surprizes.

Dont worry about being pedantic, your observations are always welcome.