Strength training of some Old School Fighters

[Arka]

Not really old school IMO,but rather dawn of the modern gloved era...

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I leave the identification of these fighters as an exercise for the Classic forum members....

[Russell]

Dempsey in the last pic looking at the hair-do.

[natonic]

Is that the great Benny Leonard doing some gardening?

[rekcutnevets]

Originally posted by Arka
Not really old school IMO,but rather dawn of the modern gloved era...

The problem with a lot of old time photos is that they may just be opportunities for fighters to appear in some sort of publication, or photo-ops.

Check out Dempsey's shoes in that last one. I bet he wished someone had before having his picture taken.

[Arka]

The problem with a lot of old time photos is that they may just be opportunities for fighters to appear in some sort of publication, or photo-ops.

Check out Dempsey's shoes in that last one. I bet he wished someone had before having his picture taken.
Is that a pic from his draft dodging days?

BTW both of the previous calls are correct.
Some of the fighters are nigh on impossible to identify,without the article caption,but they all seem to be from before the 1930s.

The pics are apparently taken from Fleischer's "Training for Boxers"

[rekcutnevets]

Originally posted by Arka
Is that a pic from his draft dodging days?
Yes

[mcvey]

Not really old school IMO,but rather dawn of the modern gloved era...

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I leave the identification of these fighters as an exercise for the Classic forum members....
Leonard ,Dempsey ,and Johnson are easy,I think that is Johnny KIlbane tree climbing.

[janitor]

Old time fighters have always used strength training methods but have generaly avoided using weights.

Rocky Marciano used the "dynamic tension" system of stretches developed by Charles Atlas.

Archie Moore used resistance exercises such as chin ups.

[mcvey]

Old time fighters have always used strength training methods but have generaly avoided using weights.

Rocky Marciano used the "dynamic tension" system of stretches developed by Charles Atlas.

Archie Moore used resistance exercises such as chin ups.
Peter Wilson the then Premier boxing writer in the UK reported that when he visted Marciano at his camp he had a small rubber ball on a piece of elastic ,hung over his bed ,and at night he woud time it and connect with soft punches.Archie Moore did indeed do chin ups, countless reps of them to build up his arms,as you can see if you look at pics of his biceps,he also used to shadow box with a steam flat iron in each hand.Wood chopping was a favourite of the old timers,Tunney in particular spent , several months hewing down trees to strengthen his hands and wrists, prepping for Dempsey

[mcvey]

Peter Wilson the then Premier boxing writer in the UK reported that when he visted Marciano at his camp he had a small rubber ball on a piece of elastic ,hung over his bed ,and at night he woud time it and connect with soft punches.Archie Moore did indeed do chin ups, countless reps of them to build up his arms,as you can see if you look at pics of his biceps,he also used to shadow box with a steam flat iron in each hand.Wood chopping was a favourite of the old timers,Tunney in particular spent , several months hewing down trees to strengthen his hands and wrists, prepping for Dempsey
Ray Robinson used to carry two little solid rubber balls and when walking along he would squeeze them in his hands.AJ Leibling,that great sports writer, remarked that Robinson didn't have a particulalrly thick neck to absorb punches ,but at the back of it was a pronounced pad of muscle,the result of countless floor exercises.

[RDJ]

Nothing makes you stronger than manual labor. Great pics.

[The Whaler]

I've always liked how the old school fighters trained. Very visceral.

Those are some nice ass pics. :good

[ChrisPontius]

Old time fighters have always used strength training methods but have generaly avoided using weights.


These look awful lot like weights to me:

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I like Johnson in that last one by the way, i imagine him coming home to play with his little daughter who is about to be kidnapped, with a cheap looking bad guy saying "you gotta cooperate, right?", Johnson replying "Wrong" and killing the guy point blank range....

[rekcutnevets]

I particularly like how Leonards' hair is not messed up.

[Duodenum]

Of course it's well known that both Max Baer and Joe Frazier hoisted heavy slabs of meat in a slaughterhouse, while Earnie Shavers grew up on a farm lifting heavy bales of hay. Roberto Duran climbed coconut trees as a street urchin. This is the kind of strength developing activity which requires engaging the whole body in the process of gripping, jerking and lifting, hence conditioning the use of leverage, an integration not involved in muscle isolation exercises.

Joe and Marvis Frazier disagree on the value of weight training for boxers, Marvis being a strong advocate for it. Once upon a time, I would have emphatically agreed with him that this novel concept could give a boxer a tremendous edge over the majority who eschewed weights. But today, I'm much more in agreement with Smoke, as leverage for punching power and endurance is far more valuable in boxing than physical strength.

If Smoke had combined the tactics he used in the Foreman rematch with the peaking ability he demonstrated against Bob Foster, he may well have been able to take out Big George late. Ron Stander was also much stronger than Joe physically, almost exclusively advancing on Smoke, but Joe's handspeed, punching power and underrated mobility systematically dismantled Big Ron's attempt to muscle the Champ into submission. (Watching Frazier/Stander, it's easy to recognize why most expected Joe to handle Foreman in much the same way. But George of course was much taller and with longer arms than Stander, to say nothing about his punching power.)

[butler08]

Leonard ,Dempsey ,and Johnson are easy,I think that is Johnny KIlbane tree climbing.

actually i think that the second one is the origional joe wallcott

[Arka]

Not really old school IMO,but rather dawn of the modern gloved era...

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I leave the identification of these fighters as an exercise for the Classic forum members....

OK the fighter from top to bottom are Freddie Welsh(?),Jack Johnson ,Ad Wolgast, Abe Attell (?),2 pics of Battling Nelson, Benny Leonard....

Dempsey is shown supporting the war effort by doing some "unilateral ground based upper body core training". I think those are Fleischer's words.

[Arka]

Of course it's well known that both Max Baer and Joe Frazier hoisted heavy slabs of meat in a slaughterhouse, while Earnie Shavers grew up on a farm lifting heavy bales of hay. Roberto Duran climbed coconut trees as a street urchin. This is the kind of strength developing activity which requires engaging the whole body in the process of gripping, jerking and lifting, hence conditioning the use of leverage, an integration not involved in muscle isolation exercises.

Joe and Marvis Frazier disagree on the value of weight training for boxers, Marvis being a strong advocate for it. Once upon a time, I would have emphatically agreed with him that this novel concept could give a boxer a tremendous edge over the majority who eschewed weights. But today, I'm much more in agreement with Smoke, as leverage for punching power and endurance is far more valuable in boxing than physical strength.


Hmmm...I recall the boxing commentator Harry Carpenter(or it might be Reg Gutteridge) mentioning in his autpbiography that Randy Turpin developed his power by performing the Olympic lifts-the snatch and the clean and jerk- in his training.I think,as was the norm in those days,they would have been executed in the split style. That is far from the isolation bodybuilding exercises as possible.

I have seen photos of Johnson using light dumbells in his training.

[abraq]

The body doesn't really know whether you are lifting a stone, a sack of flour, a barbell or your own bodyweight. These are all forms of resistance training. It is wrong to say that lifting a stone would be beneficial to a boxer but lifting dumbbells would be detrimental to him. It all depends on how you do the training. A 3 rep-max heavy, and thereby necessarily slow, weight might be good for powerlifting but the carry over value for boxing would be almost nil and might even be counter productive.

Weights came to be selected as the preferred method of resistance training because of the convenience, ease of progression and monitoring of the same it afforded. Once lifting a certain stone 12 times became easy a stone weighing 5 pounds or so more would be needed. See the problem. On weights, just add the extra five pounds (even less if needed). However, the old methods of resistance training also had its advantages. Like developing better balance, GPP, etc besides making training more interesting

The old methods of resistance training shown in the pictures fell by the wayside in the last forty years or so. But it is now making a big comeback. Some of the best modern trainers advocate a combination of both properly designed weight training as well as some of the old methods in the overall training plan for the best gains.

[abraq]

Arka, you seem to have a good knowledge of strength training methods.

Regards.

[mrbassie]

But it is now making a big comeback. Some of the best modern trainers advocate a combination of both properly designed weight training as well as some of the old methods in the overall training plan for the best gains.

Am I right that Pavlik hits a tyre with a sledge hammer? I'm sure I read that somewhere.

[FromWithin]

Am I right that Pavlik hits a tyre with a sledge hammer? I'm sure I read that somewhere.

Yes, there is pictures and videos of it on the net

[timmers612]

On the weight matter Bruce Lee had an opinion. One of his most prized books was How to Box written by the 1940's boxing instructor at the University of Minnesota. He found he could do all the techniques with increased speed and power by lifting light weights quickly. Before he died this is what he advised fighters, boxers included, to try. Just throwing this in for fun.

[Arka]

The body doesn't really know whether you are lifting a stone, a sack of flour, a barbell or your own bodyweight. These are all forms of resistance training. It is wrong to say that lifting a stone would be beneficial to a boxer but lifting dumbbells would be detrimental to him. It all depends on how you do the training. A 3 rep-max heavy, and thereby necessarily slow, weight might be good for powerlifting but the carry over value for boxing would be almost nil and might even be counter productive.

Weights came to be selected as the preferred method of resistance training because of the convenience, ease of progression and monitoring of the same it afforded. Once lifting a certain stone 12 times became easy a stone weighing 5 pounds or so more would be needed. See the problem. On weights, just add the extra five pounds (even less if needed). However, the old methods of resistance training also had its advantages. Like developing better balance, GPP, etc besides making training more interesting

The old methods of resistance training shown in the pictures fell by the wayside in the last forty years or so. But it is now making a big comeback. Some of the best modern trainers advocate a combination of both properly designed weight training as well as some of the old methods in the overall training plan for the best gains.

Yes it is quite fascinating.Personally I'm interested in Olympic Lifting and old time strength athletes.

Here is a booklet,I just found,about the strength aspect of boxing containing among other things traditional callisthenic, breathing, pulley and barbell exercises from the late forties and early fifties.I don't know whether any top class fighter,from those days, followed this routine.

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[Duodenum]

On the weight matter Bruce Lee had an opinion. One of his most prized books was How to Box written by the 1940's boxing instructor at the University of Minnesota. He found he could do all the techniques with increased speed and power by lifting light weights quickly. Before he died this is what he advised fighters, boxers included, to try. Just throwing this in for fun.This refers to Edwin L. Haislett's 1940 classic simply titled, "Boxing: A Self Instruction Manual," which is extensively illustrated with excellent line drawings.

When John J. Walsh, Ed Haislett's legendary counterpart at the University of Wisconsin published "Boxing Simplified" in 1951, he brought Haislet's line drawings to life by using his students as flesh and blood models in photographs of the same positions Haislet's book depicted, thus reinforcing the viability of this approach.

If is is accepted that a classic book is one that does not need rewriting, consider that Walsh never revised his text, even though he lived for another half century after publishing it. Haislet retired in 1976, also having not seen the need to update his guide in the 36 years since releasing it.

Randy Turpin was widely noted for his uniqueness in utilizing weight training as part of his conditioning regimen. Less publicized is that Olympic style lifting was employed in his case.

Light dumbells have long been a staple of boxing conditioning, as have been weighted pulleys.

Striking a tire with a sledgehammer was reportedly a method Archie Moore had Earnie Shavers employ. Shavers later got involved in training with weights, but apparently has stated that it did not enhance his punching power much. Jerry Quarry and Ken Norton both commented during broadcasts of Shavers fights that they felt his weight training compromised his endurance. (Norton said this during the rest period between rounds six and seven of Earnie's classic with Tiger Williams.)

[Quickhands21]

The body doesn't really know whether you are lifting a stone, a sack of flour, a barbell or your own bodyweight. These are all forms of resistance training. It is wrong to say that lifting a stone would be beneficial to a boxer but lifting dumbbells would be detrimental to him. It all depends on how you do the training. A 3 rep-max heavy, and thereby necessarily slow, weight might be good for powerlifting but the carry over value for boxing would be almost nil and might even be counter productive.

Weights came to be selected as the preferred method of resistance training because of the convenience, ease of progression and monitoring of the same it afforded. Once lifting a certain stone 12 times became easy a stone weighing 5 pounds or so more would be needed. See the problem. On weights, just add the extra five pounds (even less if needed). However, the old methods of resistance training also had its advantages. Like developing better balance, GPP, etc besides making training more interesting

The old methods of resistance training shown in the pictures fell by the wayside in the last forty years or so. But it is now making a big comeback. Some of the best modern trainers advocate a combination of both properly designed weight training as well as some of the old methods in the overall training plan for the best gains.
Your body does know the difference..When your using a forein object stone, log.Your using different flexors in your hands and forearm muscles..It also gives you more strength in awkward situations and gives you stronger balance..Weights are ok but there not nearly as affective for boxing as doing irregular awkward lifts

[COULDHAVEBEEN]

Remember too that in the old days even most of the good fighters still had jobs.

The hard work performed by James Braddock during his time-out enabled him to come back bigger, stronger and with two good hands, including a jab he'd never had before. The type of work he performed was not unlike some of the pictures earlier in this thread.

[Duodenum]

Remember too that in the old days even most of the good fighters still had jobs.

The hard work performed by James Braddock during his time-out enabled him to come back bigger, stronger and with two good hands, including a jab he'd never had before. The type of work he performed was not unlike some of the pictures earlier in this thread.And that development of his jab during that hiatus as a stevedore is particularly telling when one compares his excellent performances against Baer, Louis and Farr against the way the older and shorter armed Tommy Loughran jabbed him silly in 1929. (All four of these contests are usually readily available for on-line viewing.)

CHB, this is a superb example you have brought forth for our consideration. When Jimmy Braddock later did decide to leave for good on his own terms, it wasn't bad hands but declining mobility which clinched his choice to retire. (Specifically, arthritis was hampering his ability to move backwards, a key factor in his late career success.)