Valuev to defend against Holyfield

[OLD FOGEY]

Maybe I am out of the loop, but I had not heard that Nicolai Valuev is going to defend against Evander Holyfield on Dec 20 until a few minutes ago.

I don't know if there has been a thread on this but if not:

Why in the hell was this fight made?

Does anyone want to see this?

Who considers Holyfield still to be a legitimate challenger?

[Rebel-INS]

It was speculation for a while, but as far as I know it was only made official last week. It's a ridiculous fight, Holyfield is 46 and he's fighting a seven foot giant. He could end up being seriously hurt, and apparently he's fighting for a very low amount of money.

[Dempsey1238]

old news.

[he grant]

A freak show ... :patsch Holyfield has become one of those guys like Duran that will stay around until they are embarrassed time and again ... considering how much he has made it really is sad ...:blood

[Russell]

A freak show ... :patsch Holyfield has become one of those guys like Duran that will stay around until they are embarrassed time and again ... considering how much he has made it really is sad ...:blood

And Duran left the sport healthy and well off.

If Holyfield wants to fight on, let him. It's his decision. He has and does enjoy what he does.

[BlackWater]

He's going to die :lol:

[SteveO]

I heard that Holy's cut will be $750k which is pocket change compared to what he used to fight for.

I think the mildly polished Valuev will put the hurt on him. Bad.

[cuchulain]

The point is, Why is this a sanctioned title bout?

Is Holy a top 20 heavywt ?

What has he done sice he last lost a bid for the title ?

[DamonD]

I heard that Holy's cut will be $750k which is pocket change compared to what he used to fight for.
I've recently seen worse, I've seen it quoted as more like $600k.
This is man that once made $30m for a title fight. I mean, jeez.

If Holyfield wins, there will be the achievement of becoming the oldest belt-holder in heavyweight history. It doesn't match up to what Foreman did - Moorer had two belts, had beaten the previous holder to get them and was the linear champion, all of which isn't the case for Valuev - but would be worthwhile.

There's then the problem of Holyfield becoming a very enticing target for actual heavy-punching talent like the Klitschkos or a hungry heavyweight looking to make a name for himself by punching out the old man, increasing the chances of Holyfield getting seriously injured...but I'll leave that for another day.

If Holyfield loses, it's just yet another loss to someone he would've beaten in his prime, another sad runaround of his old ghost for the sake of a recognisable name on the marquee and a few extra thousand on the gate.

And no, he's done nothing in the last 14 months to deserve this shot. If you're looking for crumbs of comfort you could draw parallels to Foreman-Moorer again there I guess. I'd argue he's done nothing in the last 6 years to deserve a title shot but we all know how desperate promoters seem to be these days. World Heavyweight title contender Peter Okhello anyone?

[Loewe]

Maybe I am out of the loop, but I had not heard that Nicolai Valuev is going to defend against Evander Holyfield on Dec 20 until a few minutes ago.

I don't know if there has been a thread on this but if not:

Why in the hell was this fight made?

Does anyone want to see this?

Who considers Holyfield still to be a legitimate challenger?
Nobody that´s just money. Holyfield is still a big name, especially with casual fans who don´t know much about boxing but watch some fights from time to time.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I heard that Holy's cut will be $750k which is pocket change compared to what he used to fight for.


Good. If they keep throwing millions at him he'll never give up.

[DamonD]

I'm just depressed about the whole situation to be honest.
I really never thought Evander would end up scrabbling around like this all these years later. Given the fact that he (temporarily at least) retired in 1993 and 1994 before, I kinda hoped he wouldn't be one of these guys that kept on plugging away through diminishing returns and expectations.
But, he has.

[Mendoza]

I think Holyfield has a chance at an uset TKO, on a counter with the hook.

I also think there is a chance this fight will have some funny business.

Having said that, I'm picking Valuev

[ChrisPontius]

I think Holyfield has a chance at an uset TKO, on a counter with the hook.


Come on. :patsch

Holyfield is NOT a big puncher, Valuev has never even been wobbly on his feet never mind knocked down, and Holyfield damn near has to jump up to reach his chin. The only chance Holyfield has is a freak injury to occur to Valuev.

[ChrisPontius]

Maybe I am out of the loop, but I had not heard that Nicolai Valuev is going to defend against Evander Holyfield on Dec 20 until a few minutes ago.

I don't know if there has been a thread on this but if not:

Why in the hell was this fight made?

Does anyone want to see this?

Who considers Holyfield still to be a legitimate challenger?
Don King.... he recycles his heavyweights far beyond date of use. Both are King fighters as far as i know, so for him it's a done deal. Valuev doesn't seem to be in control of anything surrounding his career, other than the fighting itself. I thought it was a stretch when he was given a beltholder-title shot against Ibragimov last year (although some posters here like Sonny's jab gave him a 60% chance:lol:), but this is really outrageous.

If Valuev's management had any idea of how to establish a fighter, they would've turned Holyfield down within a second. But hey, Valuev has already fought other washed up King fighters like Ruiz, McCline and Rahman is already fighting Wlad next month....


The only positive aspect of this fight is that Valuev is staying pretty active.

For Holyfield, by the way, it's the worst fight possible. At least against Wlad he'd have a puncher's chance, even if it is 1 in 1000. Against Valuev he has none of that whatsoever. He needs to work hard to reach all the way up and Valuev's punch output is pretty solid, unlike Holyfield who fights in spurts these days.

And to make things worse, Valuev is not a big hitter at all, just a heavy clubber. Which will mean that Holyfield probably receives a prolonged, 12 round beating, instead of a quick merciful TKO.

[Unforgiven]

I saw Chagaev outbox Valuev by doing very little really. Chagaev didn't have to jump up to score, and he's certainly not taller than Holyfield.

Valuev is excrutiatingly SLOW, so he doesn't hold the typical advantages of speed and agility that would put the geriatric Holyfield at a desperate disadvantage. Still, he's big and awkward and tends to do enough to scrape past even some good quality heavyweights.

I didn't think Holyfield was totally embarrassed against Ibragimov, who I figure was a more difficult style than Valuev for the old man. I reckon Valuev should be favoured to win, but I dont expect him to beat Holyfield even as bad as Sultan did, though he might. Providing Holyfield arrives in that sort of shape. I wouldn't be totally surprised if Holyfield wins on points.
Valuev is slow and not much of a puncher.

[Unforgiven]

I thought it was a stretch when he was given a beltholder-title shot against Ibragimov last year (although some posters here like Sonny's jab gave him a 60% chance:lol:), but this is really outrageous.

You are right, Holyfield is undeserving, but so are many of the other guys they get to fight for these joke titles. Have a look at some of the other clowns who have been given title shots in recent years. Valuev fought Barrett and Beck ! Look at their credentials going in. Maskaev fought Peter Okhello. Wladimir Klitschko reckons Rahman is the most viable man to replace Povetkin on about 6 weeks notice ! Matt Skelton got a shot against Chagaev. Golota was being groomed for another shot.
To be fair, Holyfield's form going in to the WBO title Ibragimov fight wasn't much worse than Brewster, Lyakovich or Briggs had shown before they WON the same title.

[Bummy Davis]

Wide UD for Valuev unless he goes to the Body...Evander does not like it there...but Evander is still a name and is amazing for his age...good fight for Valuev

[ChrisPontius]

You are right, Holyfield is undeserving, but so are many of the other guys they get to fight for these joke titles. Have a look at some of the other clowns who have been given title shots in recent years. Valuev fought Barrett and Beck ! Look at their credentials going in. Maskaev fought Peter Okhello. Wladimir Klitschko reckons Rahman is the most viable man to replace Povetkin on about 6 weeks notice ! Matt Skelton got a shot against Chagaev. Golota was being groomed for another shot.
To be fair, Holyfield's form going in to the WBO title Ibragimov fight wasn't much worse than Brewster, Lyakovich or Briggs had shown before they WON the same title.

Sure, my biggest problem is not really that Holyfield is not deserving if you just look at his record during the last few years. My problem is that he's too old and damaged for a boxer to compete at this high level. I noticed that when he took a year off because of an injury in 2002, his speech started sounding very clear again. I'd hate for his health to get messed up even further by chasing, what now is, a pipe dream. I expect a Liakhovic-Valuev-like shutout with Valuev mostly jabbing and Holyfield fighting spurts, but not doing a lot of effective work.

[Unforgiven]

Sure, my biggest problem is not really that Holyfield is not deserving if you just look at his record during the last few years. My problem is that he's too old and damaged for a boxer to compete at this high level. I noticed that when he took a year off because of an injury in 2002, his speech started sounding very clear again. I'd hate for his health to get messed up even further by chasing, what now is, a pipe dream. I expect a Liakhovic-Valuev-like shutout with Valuev mostly jabbing and Holyfield fighting spurts, but not doing a lot of effective work.

I see what you're saying, but it's become so familiar now that I've become indifferent to it. And if it's what gives Holyfield meaning in his life I'm not qualified to argue with him or tell him to stop, so good luck to him. And on top of that I wouldn't even be totally shocked to see him spring an upset on Valuev.
I dont want to see Holyfield end up like Greg Page, Jerry Quarry or Muhammad Ali but I guess there are hundreds of other boxers at just as much risk of ending up like that too. It's up to the medical people to decide whether he's too damaged or not.

Holyfield has become barely viable as a title contender now, and hardly commands top pay any more. He's just another "bum of the month" for Valuev, that's what he has been reduced to.

It's more an indictment of the heavyweight division than a reflection of corruption and promotional fraud, IMO.

What we need is title unification (and the prominence of the Klitschko brothers doesn't bode that well) between Valuev and one of the brothers. We also need the GOOD YOUNG CONTENDERS willing to fight at short notice, and not crying off with injuries or on two-fight a year schedules or making silly purse demands.

[janitor]

Part of me hopes that Valuev so brutaly knocks him out so that it is obvious even to Holyfield that there is nothing left to fight on for.

[OLD FOGEY]

Part of me hopes that Valuev so brutaly knocks him out so that it is obvious even to Holyfield that there is nothing left to fight on for.

I second this, although I would replace your word brutally with quickly. Perhaps if Holyfield goes down and out in the first round he would finally see the handwriting on the wall.

I admit I don't have a good feeling about this fight at all. A 46 year old man who hasn't been much in years fighting a guy a foot taller and over a 100 lbs heavier. It could be very ugly.

[stevebhoy87]

Part of me hopes that Valuev so brutaly knocks him out so that it is obvious even to Holyfield that there is nothing left to fight on for.

Totally agree, my fear would be that somehow he wins (i know he won't) because then he would end up fighting one of the two klitchko's or Haye for a big money fight and they could quite possibly kill him. He won't win though so it shouldn't be a problem

[Mendoza]

Come on. :patsch

Holyfield is NOT a big puncher, Valuev has never even been wobbly on his feet never mind knocked down, and Holyfield damn near has to jump up to reach his chin. The only chance Holyfield has is a freak injury to occur to Valuev.

Holyfield still has a good hook, and I think he might be able to land the way Chagaev landed. I pick Valuev, but I do give Holyfield a chance at the upset.

[DamonD]

It's the concept of Holyfield winning that truly scares me the most of all.

That puts a huge target on the old man's head. Any thoughts of respect from opponents for the old man go flying firmly out of the window - whoever's getting a shot at his WBA title will be looking to make a name for themself and taking him out as hard and as viciously as possible.

[he grant]

Duran is healthy and well off today ... what a joke... despite the fact he tarnished his image as an all time great fighter by taking beatings he never should have taken and had become the classic stepping stone , losing to men who would never have been able to shine his shoes in his near prime, he took hundreds of punches in his forties and fifties. Despite your cliche response, that was far from healthy ... in addition , he remains close to broke and lives off his name not his savings ...

You are correct that is was his choice as it is Holyfield's but let's not say it's not sad and tragic. Duran fought on way after he should have for one reason and it was money. Holyfield, despite what he now mumbles, fights for money. He has taken a ton of punishment and made hundreds of millions of dollars and it is pathetic that he now will fight on in a freak show and risk injury.

When we see a fifty year old Evander punch drunk and inaudible, will you call him well off?

[Russell]

Duran is healthy and well off today ... what a joke... despite the fact he tarnished his image as an all time great fighter by taking beatings he never should have taken and had become the classic stepping stone , losing to men who would never have been able to shine his shoes in his near prime, he took hundreds of punches in his forties and fifties. Despite your cliche response, that was far from healthy ... in addition , he remains close to broke and lives off his name not his savings ...

You are correct that is was his choice as it is Holyfield's but let's not say it's not sad and tragic. Duran fought on way after he should have for one reason and it was money. Holyfield, despite what he now mumbles, fights for money. He has taken a ton of punishment and made hundreds of millions of dollars and it is pathetic that he now will fight on in a freak show and risk injury.

When we see a fifty year old Evander punch drunk and inaudible, will you call him well off?

Duran IS healthy.

The fact that he took hundreds of extra punches the last several years he fought is irrelevant. A car crash ended his fighting career, nothing else.

omg, he qwas hit in teh ring when he was oldd!!1

You're point? He's fine as of today, and as more then one poster here will tell you he IS decently well off. One of our posters was actually in the area he lives at the moment and he'll assure you he is well enough. :hi:

[he grant]

And you've verified this with his doctor's ..? Doubtful. Well off, based on the millions he made or the kindness of others? I have met him multiple times over the past five years and know for a fact he has symptoms of dementia and lives extremely modestly. No big secret either.

[Russell]

So I'm assuming YOU'RE this mythical doctor in question judging by how much time you spend with Duran and these tell tale symptoms you've picked up during your stay. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[SteveO]

Holyfield sets a new definition for "house broke" for that monstrosity he's had constructed.

[he grant]

Now that I know your not old enough to legally drink I can put your childish responses in the proper perspective ... regardless of age you are a bore with very limited knowledge ... I'll leave you the last word that most children like you need ... Later Russy ...

[Russell]

Now that I know your not old enough to legally drink I can put your childish responses in the proper perspective ... regardless of age you are a bore with very limited knowledge ... I'll leave you the last word that most children like you need ... Later Russy ...
Age - A poor man's excuse at attempting at tucking his tail between his legs and fleeing the conversation. :lol::lol::lol:

Playing such a weak card I'm imagining you're legally old enough to shit yourself and have to get up three or four times a night to go to the bathroom? Joint pain? Alzheimers?

Also, I had a girlfriend call me Russy once. Are you trying to hit on me? :hey:hey:hey

[flamengo]

It was speculation for a while, but as far as I know it was only made official last week. It's a ridiculous fight, Holyfield is 46 and he's fighting a seven foot giant. He could end up being seriously hurt, and apparently he's fighting for a very low amount of money.

The only thing I can offer with any kind of substance is simply, it will take the death of a fighter of Holyfields age, or another EX-champ of the same age to finally make an impact on the money making bastards who sanction, attemp to legitimise, focus on the income, Govern the alphabet soup of available titles, treat fighters as used cars and forfeit a mans credentials as a former GREAT.
The boxing circuit is nothing more than a circus in this day and age. Monopolising pricks with their own financial interests have taken the game to its lowest point in 30 years. Its hard to imagine a man being held in the same esteem as SRR, Dempsey, Louis or a few hundred others.
Several careers have seemingly remained questionable, although, careers which endure well past the mans best performances fast become unflattering and subject to ridicule.

Holyfield has, nor had anything to prove post Tyson 2. He proved himself to be 3rd to only Ali and Louis in regards to credentials. He had the capability to mop the floor with ALL previous H/W champs prior to Lewis.... (Bar ALI)
Holyfield is nothing more than a F-1 driver playing with dodgem cars now. A sad state of affairs.

[SteveO]

The only thing I can offer with any kind of substance is simply, it will take the death of a fighter of Holyfields age, or another EX-champ of the same age to finally make an impact on the money making bastards who sanction, attemp to legitimise, focus on the income, Govern the alphabet soup of available titles, treat fighters as used cars and forfeit a mans credentials as a former GREAT.
The boxing circuit is nothing more than a circus in this day and age. Monopolising pricks with their own financial interests have taken the game to its lowest point in 30 years. Its hard to imagine a man being held in the same esteem as SRR, Dempsey, Louis or a few hundred others.
Several careers have seemingly remained questionable, although, careers which endure well past the mans best performances fast become unflattering and subject to ridicule.

Holyfield has, nor had anything to prove post Tyson 2. He proved himself to be 3rd to only Ali and Louis in regards to credentials. He had the capability to mop the floor with ALL previous H/W champs prior to Lewis.... (Bar ALI) I wish to have seen the Lewis fight go ahead....
Holyfield is nothing more than a F-1 driver playing with dodgem cars now. A sad state of affairs.

I see where you're going with this. However, I feel that at this point he's got the skills of the F1 driver and the "vehicle" of a Cedar Point bumper car...and yet he's trying to run with the Hamilton's and the Massa's of the boxing world.

[flamengo]

I see where you're going with this. However, I feel that at this point he's got the skills of the F1 driver and the "vehicle" of a Cedar Point bumper car...and yet he's trying to run with the Hamilton's and the Massa's of the boxing world.

I hope he remains intact after the fight... and then retires. He is well and truly over the finished line.

[Doppleganger]

I'm just depressed about the whole situation to be honest.
I really never thought Evander would end up scrabbling around like this all these years later. Given the fact that he (temporarily at least) retired in 1993 and 1994 before, I kinda hoped he wouldn't be one of these guys that kept on plugging away through diminishing returns and expectations.
But, he has.
Evander's skint I think. He's not doing it for the love of boxing but because he has no other real way to generate the income needed to settle his debts.

[flamengo]

Evander's skint I think. He's not doing it for the love of boxing but because he has no other real way to generate the income needed to settle his debts.

Why is he in debt??

[DamonD]

Alimony aside, It's that bloody mansion of his. It's an absolute palace and totally unnecessary but for Holyfield, it's his own personal Xanadu. Some people buy "I have a huge dick" cars , Holyfield has that place and he could solve so much of his money issues by choosing to downsize a bit.

Evander listened to MC Hammer in '93 about a comeback, maybe he should look at him again when it comes to an equally lavish pad and the big problems Hammer had because of it.

[flamengo]

Alimony aside, It's that bloody mansion of his. It's an absolute palace and totally unnecessary but for Holyfield, it's his own personal Xanadu. Some people buy "I have a huge dick" cars , Holyfield has that place and he could solve so much of his money issues by choosing to downsize a bit.

Evander listened to MC Hammer in '93 about a comeback, maybe he should look at him again when it comes to an equally lavish pad and the big problems Hammer had because of it.

Its unbelievable that such vast fortunes can be vanquished. What are these guys thinking?? Oh well, its their cash... live it up.

[Doppleganger]

It's all the divorce and alimony settlements he has to fork out as well. Commander Evander can't keep his flies shut it seems - he has about 40 kids to 9 different women. OK I exaggerate but his family expenses are well known.

[mr. magoo]

I started a thread on this about two months ago, but was told by the general forum that Valuev's people had not yet agreed to the contract, and that the deal was more or less a dud. Anyway, it looks like the fight may come off afterall, but here's the $60,000 question:

Who cares?

[Russell]

Honest question, how many kids and wives does Holyfield have?

Secondly, hasn't he made as much if not more money then Tyson over the course of his career?

[he grant]

It's pathetic that this is what has become of Evander ... I cannot think of any former heavyweight champions who sunk so low for so long after their prime ...

[Bummy Davis]

I second this, although I would replace your word brutally with quickly. Perhaps if Holyfield goes down and out in the first round he would finally see the handwriting on the wall.

I admit I don't have a good feeling about this fight at all. A 46 year old man who hasn't been much in years fighting a guy a foot taller and over a 100 lbs heavier. It could be very ugly.


Shame is that he is running out of money and needs to fight but if he gets KO;d he may hang em up but the Toney fight did not convince him so who knows he is in denial

[Mendoza]

It's pathetic that this is what has become of Evander ... I cannot think of any former heavyweight champions who sunk so low for so long after their prime ...

Ezzard Chalres fought on well past his prime.

[SteveO]

It's pathetic that this is what has become of Evander ... I cannot think of any former heavyweight champions who sunk so low for so long after their prime ...

I'll bet you'd find a few who fought on a bit too long or sunk low.

[fists of fury]

If Holyfield wants to fight on, let him. It's his decision. He has and does enjoy what he does.

We have to look at the bigger picture though. I believe in certain cases fighters should be saved from themselves.

What is the upside to this fight? Realistically, Holyfield is going to lose badly, probably taking a beating in the process. How will that look to the general media and public? (The few that will care anyway.)

Only in boxing can you have a guy of nearly 50 being allowed to slowly turn himself into a vegetable. Only in boxing can a hopelessly faded competitor still be allowed to compete at "world class" level.
It's a bad, bad advertisment for the sport however you look at it.

It's pitiful really and I can't help but feel sad and yet angry with Evander.
I'm sad that he's fighting for peanuts and destroying what's left of his brain matter.
I'm angry because he never made provision for the future, and not only is he ruining is own health, but helping to further tarnish the sport.

Strange, but Evander was always seen as the level-headed one, and Tyson the idiot that could and would destroy himself.
Yet it's Tyson who has had the sense to call it quits. He enjoys good health and doesn't slur his words.
Evander is the one who is being the idiot now. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't turn into a wreck the way Ali has.

Oh, and I just want to add that I think Valuev is a coward and a shameless prick.

[Thread Stealer]

Honest question, how many kids and wives does Holyfield have?

Secondly, hasn't he made as much if not more money then Tyson over the course of his career?


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Only last month, Holyfield avoided possible jail time by agreeing to come current with the terms of his child-support payments for one of his 11 children. Toi Jenese Irvin, the mother of Holyfield’s 11-year-old son, Evan, in June had filed a petition for contempt in Fayette County (Ga.) Superior Court, claiming that Holyfield had missed two child-support payments totaling $6,000. Making matters worse for Holyfield, a Utah consulting company sued him for failing to repay a $550,000 debt.

Creditors still are circling Holyfield like vultures over a parched, half-dead man crawling in the desert, but at least he has temporarily staved off one threat. In October he agreed to put $100,000, within three years, toward Evan’s education fund. He also agreed to pay for the boy’s private-school tuition in addition to maintaining the $3,000-per-month child support the court had mandated.

“I do love my kids,” Holyfield said after both parties reached the accord. “I do want them to get a better education than I did, and I do all I can to support them.”

So why would a fighter who earned $248 million in purses – $107 million of which came during a dizzying six-fight stretch from 1996 to ’99 – be taken to court on a chump-change matter of a few thousand dollars in late child-support payments?

“I’m not broke,” Holyfield said in explaining why he keeps finding himself in arrears. “I’m just not liquid.”

That is a way of saying that the bulk of Holyfield’s money is tied up in his mansion, a 109-room monument to conspicuous consumption that stands on a 235-acre tract of Georgia’s priciest real estate. With the cost of the land, it took Holyfield nearly $60 million to construct his stately pleasure-dome. Since then he has taken out two additional mortgages, totaling $5 million.

[Thread Stealer]

Alimony aside, It's that bloody mansion of his. It's an absolute palace and totally unnecessary but for Holyfield, it's his own personal Xanadu. Some people buy "I have a huge dick" cars , Holyfield has that place and he could solve so much of his money issues by choosing to downsize a bit.


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[Russell]

Holmes fought on, as of now, for seven years longer then Evander. He was 53 years old when he finally retired.

In the last few years of his career he lost to the likes of Brian Nielson and received a gift decision against Maurice Harris. Hardly world beaters.

Seeing some parallels here?

Holmes was 48 years old when he got his last world title shot against Nielson, another fighter from Europe like Valuev. He came just short of winning it even though the fight was in Nielson's backyard.

Holmes now slurs his speech but he finally retired and he's happy.

So tell me, who exactly was screaming bloody murder for Larry's personal choice to continue fighting as late as 2002? Has Larry's slight damage from boxing made him some brain dead vegetable that can't function?

Ali is the exception, not the rule. Most fighters don't end up as badly damaged as him, you could argue that Bobby Chacon functions better then Ali despite being in as many wars as anyone. Then again, not many fighters get beaten on for 15 rounds by Earnie fucking Shavers.

Like I said, it's Holyfield's decision. He's a man and he's more then aware of what he is and isn't doing, as was Ali. He's one of the fight games ultimate warriors and I can't imagine the high he must get doing what he's been doing for over 20 years now, and how happy it must make him to fight, win or lose.

It's a double standard in my opinion. So many fighters have fought on for so long, for so much less money and fame then Holyfield now, but who's screaming for their retirement?

Who gave a shit when Marion Wilson was almost 60 years old fighting Oliver McCall twice?

Why is Holyfield the exception that makes the boxing community collectively disgusted?

Give it a break.

[radianttwilight]

Holmes took nowhere near the amount of punishment that Holyfield is and has been taking.

I agree with your point - let the man fight, but Holmes is a bad comparison.

Ali is a good comparison because his later 1970s style relied on soaking up the punishment.

[Russell]

Holmes took nowhere near the amount of punishment that Holyfield is and has been taking.

I agree with your point - let the man fight, but Holmes is a bad comparison.

Ali is a good comparison because his later 1970s style relied on soaking up the punishment.

Two fights with Shaver's and he hasn't taken comparable amounts of punishment?

Holmes had 75 career fights.

Holyfield isn't leaps and bounds beyond what Holmes took over the course of his career.

[fists of fury]

Holmes fought on, as of now, for seven years longer then Evander. He was 53 years old when he finally retired.

In the last few years of his career he lost to the likes of Brian Nielson and received a gift decision against Maurice Harris. Hardly world beaters.

Seeing some parallels here?

Holmes was 48 years old when he got his last world title shot against Nielson, another fighter from Europe like Valuev. He came just short of winning it even though the fight was in Nielson's backyard.

Holmes now slurs his speech but he finally retired and he's happy.

So tell me, who exactly was screaming bloody murder for Larry's personal choice to continue fighting as late as 2002? Has Larry's slight damage from boxing made him some brain dead vegetable that can't function?

Ali is the exception, not the rule. Most fighters don't end up as badly damaged as him, you could argue that Bobby Chacon functions better then Ali despite being in as many wars as anyone. Then again, not many fighters get beaten on for 15 rounds by Earnie fucking Shavers.

Like I said, it's Holyfield's decision. He's a man and he's more then aware of what he is and isn't doing, as was Ali. He's one of the fight games ultimate warriors and I can't imagine the high he must get doing what he's been doing for over 20 years now, and how happy it must make him to fight, win or lose.

It's a double standard in my opinion. So many fighters have fought on for so long, for so much less money and fame then Holyfield now, but who's screaming for their retirement?

Who gave a shit when Marion Wilson was almost 60 years old fighting Oliver McCall twice?

Why is Holyfield the exception that makes the boxing community collectively disgusted?

Give it a break.

I don't like ANYONE fighting over a certain age when their skills have undeniably eroded. Be it Holyfield or anyone else. Holyfield is close to shot, yet he's fighting a seven footer that will pound on him for as long as Holyfield stays upright. Are you okay with that?
What will it take to convince you this is an appalling set of circumstances? That it should not happen?
Nielsen was a feather-fisted guy and Holmes has always been able to look after himself. Evander, never one to avoid being hit, has been in more ring wars and is fighting a huge guy who has the capacity to beat him up but good over 12 rouunds.

Holyfield is horribly deluded and more importantly, basically bankrupt. He's not fighting for the love of it, or at least only for the love of it. That's bullshit. He's got no other way of making big money quickly. Would he fight Valuev for nothing? Of course not. Hell, what has he done to earn the shot anyway, other than being old and beatable?

By the way, Ali isn't an exception. He's just the most well-known example. Thousands of fighters have been badly maimed or worse for fighting for too long. My one friend's grandfather suffers badly from Parkinson's and yes, it was boxing related. The fact that nobody's ever heard of him doesn't make it any less real.

Where does this end? Let's say Evander puts up a good fight and isn't badly hurt. Okay fine. That'll only encourage Holyfield to fight on. As you age, the chances of suffering long-term and permanent damage from boxing rise. That's an undeniable fact.

Hopkins is still good enough to compete at the top. I have no problem with him continuing to fight on. Holyfield is badly faded, and he's been in countless ring wars already. Nobody can deny he's a prime candidate to suffer long-term damage. It may be his choice, but it doesn't make it any less a sad and dangerous situation.

It's a lose-lose situation all round for Evander, and for boxing.

[radianttwilight]

Two fights with Shaver's and he hasn't taken comparable amounts of punishment?

Holmes had 75 career fights.

Holyfield isn't leaps and bounds beyond what Holmes took over the course of his career.

Holmes, except for a couple of titanic right hands from Shavers, took nowhere near the beating that Ali did. Even in two fights.

75 career fights is irrelevant, it's not the number of the fights but the amount of damage.

Holmes' style is and always was to use the jab and avoid return fire. Holyfield is different.

Holmes also had a nice five-year gap between 1986 and his comeback in 1981 where he only fought once, Tyson. I'd call him a bit more well-preserved than Holyfield, who has consistently fought for over two decades with no such layoff.

[OLD FOGEY]

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Oh my word! I have seen nothing like this since I was last in the Tsar's Winter Palace in St Petersburg. I wonder what the taxes are.

[OLD FOGEY]

And Holyfield just gave an interview saying that after taking care of Valuev he will be going after the Klitschko's. This could get very ugly.

[DamonD]

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[ChrisPontius]

And Holyfield just gave an interview saying that after taking care of Valuev he will be going after the Klitschko's. This could get very ugly.

I don't know whether to laugh or to cry.

[Unforgiven]

IF he can beat Valuev why shouldn't he go after the Klitschkos ?

If Holyfield beats Valuev he's worthy of being ranked in the top 5 heavyweights in the world, and he's the only non-Klitschko holding a belt. Holyfield versus W.K or V.K would make sense.

Of course, none of us expect him to beat Valuev. But he might. And I'm pleased to hear Holyfield expects to win.

Hasim Rahman is fighting Wladimir next month, and no one is calling Rahman deluded for believing he can win. Yet I'd say Rahman has looked just as bad (and probably worse) as Holyfield, and lacking even half as much desire, in recent years.

I think people should lay off all this Holyfield-bashing. I wouldn't knock a man for believing in himself, especially a man who's achieved so much through self belief.
Fair enough, you might not consider him a worthy title challenger, that's a good point. And you might expect him to get embarrassing beating. But dont watch the fight then !

As for health issues, it's up to the doctors to clear fighters to fight. And it's the doctors and the fighters who know whether there is any damage. Amateur diagnoses aren't worth squat.
I bet Holyfield is in better shape than about 35 of the guys who Valuev has already fought. Boxing fans should be more worried about the hundreds and thousands of professional losers who get knocked out and take beatings to pad the records of up-and-coming prospects, all the time. Holyfield, 46 years old maybe, but he's still a relatively good boxer.

[he grant]

You are right ... there are many sad examples like Ezzard Charles ... Ray Robinson comes to mind as well as does Sam Langford ... it is pathetic ...

[OLD FOGEY]

IF he can beat Valuev why shouldn't he go after the Klitschkos ?

If Holyfield beats Valuev he's worthy of being ranked in the top 5 heavyweights in the world, and he's the only non-Klitschko holding a belt. Holyfield versus W.K or V.K would make sense.

Of course, none of us expect him to beat Valuev. But he might. And I'm pleased to hear Holyfield expects to win.

Hasim Rahman is fighting Wladimir next month, and no one is calling Rahman deluded for believing he can win. Yet I'd say Rahman has looked just as bad (and probably worse) as Holyfield, and lacking even half as much desire, in recent years.

I think people should lay off all this Holyfield-bashing. I wouldn't knock a man for believing in himself, especially a man who's achieved so much through self belief.
Fair enough, you might not consider him a worthy title challenger, that's a good point. And you might expect him to get embarrassing beating. But dont watch the fight then !

As for health issues, it's up to the doctors to clear fighters to fight. And it's the doctors and the fighters who know whether there is any damage. Amateur diagnoses aren't worth squat.
I bet Holyfield is in better shape than about 35 of the guys who Valuev has already fought. Boxing fans should be more worried about the hundreds and thousands of professional losers who get knocked out and take beatings to pad the records of up-and-coming prospects, all the time. Holyfield, 46 years old maybe, but he's still a relatively good boxer.

I personally am getting weary of these Eastern European champions fighting washed up or no hope Americans rather than each other. I don't think either Hasim Rahman or Evander Holyfield deserves a shot at this point.

Valuev should be fighting one of the Klitschkos.

[ChrisPontius]

I personally am getting weary of these Eastern European champions fighting washed up or no hope Americans rather than each other. I don't think either Hasim Rahman or Evander Holyfield deserves a shot at this point.

Valuev should be fighting one of the Klitschkos.

Wlad fought Ibragimov. Chagaev fought Valuev and is scheduled to fight him again in 2009. Valuev fought Liakhovic. Chagaev fought Virchis. Ibragimov was scheduled to fight Chagaev, but the latter got injured.

Wlad was about to fight Povetkin, but Povetkin got injured and Rahman was a late-substitute; it was either him or Toney, which would be an even worse mis match.

Valuev is well-managed and deserves all shit he's getting for fighting Holyfield, but he's obviously a Don King / Sauerland puppet, who are trying to make some cheap bucks, and give boxing another black eye.



But i think you're overreacting and generalizing to say that "these eastern europeans don't fight each other".

[OLD FOGEY]

Wlad fought Ibragimov. Chagaev fought Valuev and is scheduled to fight him again in 2009. Valuev fought Liakhovic. Chagaev fought Virchis. Ibragimov was scheduled to fight Chagaev, but the latter got injured.

Wlad was about to fight Povetkin, but Povetkin got injured and Rahman was a late-substitute; it was either him or Toney, which would be an even worse mis match.

Valuev is well-managed and deserves all shit he's getting for fighting Holyfield, but he's obviously a Don King / Sauerland puppet, who are trying to make some cheap bucks, and give boxing another black eye.



But i think you're overreacting and generalizing to say that "these eastern europeans don't fight each other".

Fair points.

But I would like to see the best of the Eastern Europeans fighting each other to produce a real champion.

[DamonD]

Hasim Rahman is fighting Wladimir next month, and no one is calling Rahman deluded for believing he can win.
Oh yeah, Hasim's been getting tons of praise and backing on General...no-one's been calling him an idiot to believe he can win *cough cough*

[JohnThomas1]

Two fights with Shaver's and he hasn't taken comparable amounts of punishment?


Shavers barely hit Holmes in either fight excepting the terrific KD. Certainly he wasn't taking much leather. Witherspoon hit Holmes more times than Shavers did in two fights.

[mr. magoo]

Wlad fought Ibragimov. Chagaev fought Valuev and is scheduled to fight him again in 2009. Valuev fought Liakhovic. Chagaev fought Virchis. Ibragimov was scheduled to fight Chagaev, but the latter got injured.

Wlad was about to fight Povetkin, but Povetkin got injured and Rahman was a late-substitute; it was either him or Toney, which would be an even worse mis match.

Valuev is well-managed and deserves all shit he's getting for fighting Holyfield, but he's obviously a Don King / Sauerland puppet, who are trying to make some cheap bucks, and give boxing another black eye.



But i think you're overreacting and generalizing to say that "these eastern europeans don't fight each other".

Chazz Witherspoon, Chris Areola, Eddie Chambers, Tye Fields and Kevin Johnson are the future of heavyweight boxing:yep

[ChrisPontius]

Chazz Witherspoon, Chris Areola, Eddie Chambers, Tye Fields and Kevin Johnson are the future of heavyweight boxing:yep

:D

Seriously though, I think Arreola and Chambers make good contenders, though they have to prove themselves a bit more. Chambers was in the top10, but Povetkin knocked him out of it. I wouldn't have a problem with Arreola being ranked low in the top10. Chazz Whiterspoon and Fields will never be more than fringe contenders. Haven't seen Johnson yet.

[DamonD]

Chambers I think can do something still. The Povetkin loss was as much to do with what Chambers did wrong as Povetkin did right. He needs to keep a firm eye on his weight and keep focused, but his boxing skills are good.

Arreola likes knocking guys out and that aggression should get him in the title mix at some point. Still wonder what happens when he meets someone that can take his power and reply in kind...the failed Tua fight would've been a good barometer. Also weight issues.

Chazz can box but the Arreola loss is a damaging one. Fields always seemed someone happy to be a big fish in a little pond, and once he stepped up he got knocked back down again. And Johnson I remain unconvinced by, also a keen hitter but I don't think he has much beyond that. The first couple rounds against Seldon were unimpressive and again, weight issues.

[mr. magoo]

:D

Seriously though, I think Arreola and Chambers make good contenders, though they have to prove themselves a bit more. Chambers was in the top10, but Povetkin knocked him out of it. I wouldn't have a problem with Arreola being ranked low in the top10. Chazz Whiterspoon and Fields will never be more than fringe contenders. Haven't seen Johnson yet.

Agreed,

If Witherspoon and Fields had any real talent to offer, it would have been apparent by now. Chambers and Areola are still potentially good hopefuls.

[Russell]

Chamber's is underrated and can go places in my opinion.