as far as i'm concerned..Fedor would submit both

[boxingcar]

From what i've seen a few minutes ago...(couldn't watch the fight live).. Fedor would submit both for sure. You can start the flamming all you want but no sane mma fan who's been watching this sport for years can believe that either Couture or Lesnar has something on this guy.

Before lesnar vs couture took place , i had it as a 50/50.
This was based on the fact that Couture has always been known for struggling against bigger wrestlers. (Barnett , Ricco) and to a certain point , even Randleman (who's not as big as the likes of ricco or barnett).

I even made a thread about it.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Having said that , Couture did gr8 at handling the big guy against the cage. (especially for someone of his size). And the ending was ultra disappointing. Couture got caught by a seemingly weak punch.

Obviously , i wasn't at the other end of the impact so i don't know how powerful it truely was and maybe it only takes a punch like this to ko someone...(a guy like lesnar is pretty huge & strong).

But overall i'd say the fight itself was a bit of a disappointement and i have no doubt in my mind that Fed would own both. Regardless of what happens vs Arlovski in january.

I truely hope that either Mir or Nogueira (i'm personally rooting for nog) , grabs the belt back...

[scurlaruntings]

I said Randy wouldnt be able to cope with his size and i was right. To be honest Nog is so shot that i still give Brock a good chance at just steam rollering the guy. As for Fedor he`d beat both these men in a Gran Prix on the same night.

[boxingcar]

I said Randy wouldnt be able to cope with his size and i was right. To be honest Nog is so shot that i still give Brock a good chance at just steam rollering the guy. As for Fedor he`d beat both these men in a Gran Prix on the same night.

on the same fcking night ! :lol:
And by the way , i personally no longer care to see Couture vs Fedor.
As a matter of fact , i'm not even interested in seeing an eventual lesnar vs fed.

I don't think the ufc needs fedor...(dana would rather have Lesnar as a champ and i bet he's crossing his fingers & hoping that either mir or nog get both killed by this guy)...nor do i believe that fed needs them to prove anything...i'd rather see fed vs arlovski or barnett at this point..or kharitonov.

[boxingcar]

oh and by the way , i hope no one blames randy's loss on age and all...
Because afterall , let's not forget that he defeated Sylvia & Gonzaga last year.

Granted , Couture hasn't been fighting since 2007 prior to last night , but Lesnar still deserves credit for this victory. (i'm just not impressed by it though).

Everything Lesnar or Couture does..Fedor can do it better.

Lesnar defeated Herring by UD...fine
Fedor mauled herring , disfigured his ass , forcing him to abandon the fight.

Couture defeated Sylvia by UD...ok
Fed , took 36 seconds to submit him..that's less time that he needed to finish Hong man Choi !

Couture has 5 wins & 2 legit losses in Rings.

Fedor has 10 wins & one loss , and left "rings" with the belts.

[scurlaruntings]

I forgot about Fedor Couture ages ago. Fedor is so many levels above Couture its not even funny. A bout between them wouldnt even be close. Even if Hong Man Choi got signed by the UFC he`d be the heavy champ in under 3 bouts thats real! :-) There heavy division is woefully thin and unimportant. Its been a constant merrigoround with guys like Gonzaga doing the unthinkable, Couture coming back and working miracles and now Brock.. Thats a divsion with no credibility.

[Tuffnutz]

From what i've seen a few minutes ago...(couldn't watch the fight live).. Fedor would submit both for sure. You can start the flamming all you want but no sane mma fan who's been watching this sport for years can believe that either Couture or Lesnar has something on this guy.

Before lesnar vs couture took place , i had it as a 50/50.
This was based on the fact that Couture has always been known for struggling against bigger wrestlers. (Barnett , Ricco) and to a certain point , even Randleman (who's not as big as the likes of ricco or barnett).

I even made a thread about it.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Having said that , Couture did gr8 at handling the big guy against the cage. (especially for someone of his size). And the ending was ultra disappointing. Couture got caught by a seemingly weak punch.

Obviously , i wasn't at the other end of the impact so i don't know how powerful it truely was and maybe it only takes a punch like this to ko someone...(a guy like lesnar is pretty huge & strong).

But overall i'd say the fight itself was a bit of a disappointement and i have no doubt in my mind that Fed would own both. Regardless of what happens vs Arlovski in january.

I truely hope that either Mir or Nogueira (i'm personally rooting for nog) , grabs the belt back...

I was attacked in the thread i created because i said the right hand that Lesnar dropped Randy with was weak and that the follow up G & P blows even weaker.

Yeah he caught Randy in a bad spot but lets be fuckign honest here. I've seen fucking thousands of fights over the years and i know when i see a weak punch or bad punch resistance.

At the end of the fight the way Randy went down was poor and a bit of a joke.

Fedor would have smashed Randy last night and submitted Lesnar. :deal

[boxingcar]

I forgot about Fedor Couture ages ago. Fedor is so many levels above Couture its not even funny. A bout between them wouldnt even be close. Even if Hong Man Choi got signed by the UFC he`d be the heavy champ in under 3 bouts thats real! :-) There heavy division is woefully thin and unimportant. Its been a constant merrigoround with guys like Gonzaga doing the unthinkable, Couture coming back and working miracles and now Brock.. Thats a divsion with no credibility.

I'm actually starting to like this hw division. :lol:
Even though nobody in this div is on par with emelianenko...I don't think ufc's hw div is hopeless...I'm verye xcited to see Mir vs Nogueira for example.

I think Mir has what it takes to pull a submission. (nog's got a real weakness...heel hooks & kneebars..It almost happened vs Barnett & Ricco was able to do it in ADCC (Abu Dhabi Combat Club) , ok it wasn't mma but it was a pretty good indication...And Barnett proved that it could happen again...

The reason why Mir's case isn't hopeless is because he's loves to pull these types of submissions. The question is will he be able to capitalise on it ? Who knows...

With Nog's age...(the guy hasn't been the same since 2005 anyway)...anything can happen.

Right now , i'm still giving the edge to Nogueira though. But it's closer than most are thinking imo. Mir's weakness is that he can't last the distance...Nog is one hell of an endurant fighter...(even now).
so all in all , this fight should be very interesting.

Also , Gonzaga is inconsistent but still a legit threat to anyone. (he hits pretty hard too ) and his bjj is top notch. (not when confronted with the likes of Werdum but otherwise...it's great ).

Lesnar's wrestling abilities are also great. He also seems like a powerful guy but right now , he's also ultra overrated.

I'm also curious to see what Junior dos santos will bring next on the table...

Overall , ufc's hw division is by far the weakest on they've got...But there's some interesting match ups here and there.

Maybe fedor should send his brother over there to spice things up a bit lol...anyway , i'm looking forward to see fed vs arlovski , should be a great fight...i'm giving fed a major advantage though. But again , anything can happen..and maybe arlovski will be able to pull the upset of mma history..

[boxingcar]

I was attacked in the thread i created because i said the right hand that Lesnar dropped Randy with was weak and that the follow up G & P blows even weaker.

Yeah he caught Randy in a bad spot but lets be fuckign honest here. I've seen fucking thousands of fights over the years and i know when i see a weak punch or bad punch resistance.

At the end of the fight the way Randy went down was poor and a bit of a joke.

Fedor would have smashed Randy last night and submitted Lesnar. :deal

it seemed very weak but again...we also have to concider a few things..
1 maybe it landed in a bad spot..
2 i don't think he saw it coming..
3 Who knows how powerful a punch like that truely is when it's coming from a guy who's as huge as Lesnar.

But yes...it really seemed like a weak ass punch for sure. and the g&p was shit too. (but Couture was already stunned at that point)

[scurlaruntings]

Lets be real has Randy`s punch resistance ever been that great. If a guy like Liddell can have him comatose a glancing blow from a behemoth like Lesnar - when Randy has never done well against athletic big men - would cause even more damage.

[jimmie]

You to never change do you ? Still crying and being bitter towards the UFC and all its fighters since Prides death. Get the fuck over it if you dislike the UFC so much then dont watch it and please dont post about it it makes both of you look incredibly pathetic. Fedor would do this and that who gives a shit he obviously doesnt.

[scurlaruntings]

Lets be real Jimbo do you actually think i care about what you think? If you dont like my opinion dont read it. It really is that simple.

[BIG FELLA]

Give Lesnar 2 or 3 more fights and he will take Fedor, For fuck sake he has only had 4 fights and has beaten a legend in Couture, Realisticly his only loss was contreversiol as he had Mir fucked except for the Referee's incompatance.

[Dostoevsky]

Give Lesnar 2 or 3 more fights and he will take Fedor, For fuck sake he has only had 4 fights and has beaten a legend in Couture, Realisticly his only loss was contreversiol as he had Mir fucked except for the Referee's incompatance.

I agree with alot of this. If Brock learns submission defence, he's pretty much unstoppable, his arms and neck are so big and strong he doesn't need to worry about them, just focus on his leg sumbission defence.

[boxingcar]

Give Lesnar 2 or 3 more fights and he will take Fedor, For fuck sake he has only had 4 fights and has beaten a legend in Couture, Realisticly his only loss was contreversiol as he had Mir fucked except for the Referee's incompatance.

I seriously doubt it. And i'd even go as far as to say that it's an insult to the sport. Because it implies that it only takes a guy of Lesnar's size 4 or 5 warm up fights to dominate in this sport & beat the most dominant fighter in the sport's history.

Let me guess...Lesnar is the next Jacare isn't he ? Let's give him one more year and he'll be able to pull "Shinya Aoki-like" type of submissions right ?..

Do you guys realise how many years the likes of Nogueira , Jacare , Arona , Kawajiri , Aoki , Hansen , Barnett etc....have been working on these disciplines ? Do you honestly believe that it's easy to reach a submission defense of the likes of Fedor or Penn ?

[boxingcar]

I agree with alot of this. If Brock learns submission defence, he's pretty much unstoppable, his arms and neck are so big and strong he doesn't need to worry about them, just focus on his leg sumbission defence.

Then you don't know enough about the sport.

[boxingcar]

You know what people...In the mean time , i'll let everyone surf on the Lesnar hype. If it pleases people to believe that this guy will eventually have a superior sub defense than emelianenko , Nogueira , Jacare , roger gracie..etc...so be it.

(because that's what you guys are implying).

Personally ? You guys are pretty far from being realistic & only deluding yourselves. But maybe there's a few things you guys know that i don't...I'm not yet willing to believe that lesnar will soon be an adcc caliber sub fighter. with an emelianenko type sub defense. But who knows..maybe Lesnar will soon pull a gogoplata on Mir or Nog & will stun me like no one ever before...maybe he's the ultimate mma prodige ?

[scurlaruntings]

I agree with alot of this. If Brock learns submission defence, he's pretty much unstoppable, his arms and neck are so big and strong he doesn't need to worry about them, just focus on his leg sumbission defence. :lol::lol: Honestly are you fucking kidding?? Fedor would have Brock in an armbar faster than he beat Tim Sylvia. I mean fuck me Brock is nice for an athletic big man but this joyboy nonsense is bullshit.

[scurlaruntings]

You know what people...In the mean time , i'll let everyone surf on the Lesnar hype. If it pleases people to believe that this guy will eventually have a superior sub defense than emelianenko , Nogueira , Jacare , roger gracie..etc...so be it.

(because that's what you guys are implying).

Personally ? You guys are pretty far from being realistic & only deluding yourselves. But maybe there's a few things you guys know that i don't...I'm not yet willing to believe that lesnar will soon be an adcc caliber sub fighter. with an emelianenko type sub defense. But who knows..maybe Lesnar will soon pull a gogoplata on Mir or Nog & will stun me like no one ever before...maybe he's the ultimate mma prodige ? :lol::lol: Lesnar has no subdefense. Iv surely not seen it yet. To be honest i wasnt impressed at all in his fight with Couture and found him to be quite static and far less dynamic than when he fought Herring. Maybe it was because he was pacing himself for 5 rounds.. The ending was awful and as a whole the fight wasnt up to much. It matters not as the first legitmate striker or submission specialist he faces and his toast. Id bet my house on Gonzaga to KO him in under a round thats real.

[Tko4]

Lesnar might be able to give Fedor a run in 3-4 years, but at this point, his sub defense is far below where it needs to be. Fedor is all wrong for Lesnar. He's a great submission fighter with good quickness and a strong clinch game.

[codeman99998]

Lesnar MIGHT get armbarred by Fedor, but let's not forget that Fedor is also a force to be reckoned with on his feet.

Brock never looked hurt ni any of his fights yet, but no one he has fought hits as hard as fedor. Also, he hasn't been hit a lot. If Fedor can drop Sylvia in like, 13 seconds, I think Brock has plenty to worry about with Fedor's hands before he even thinks about sub defense.

Before he fights Fedor I would like to see him versus HMC! That would be amazing. Let's see Brock take down THAT guy (he might could, I just want to see it).

[boxingcar]

Lesnar might be able to give Fedor a run in 3-4 years, but at this point, his sub defense is far below where it needs to be. Fedor is all wrong for Lesnar. He's a great submission fighter with good quickness and a strong clinch game.

let's get real though...is it realistic to believe that EVEN in 2 or 3 years time , lesnar's sub defense will be as solid as Aoki , Jacare's or werdum's ? Because Lesnar wouldn't need to be "just good" at...He'd need to be totally devoted to it for years.

(that's what crocop tried to do...he worked his ass off in the sub defense department from 2003 to 2005... and the result ? yeah , solid defense but it ended up being useless because he wasted all his energy on the ground from constant attacks...he kepts defending and defending...and was dead tired at the end of the final round )...

Now imagine a guy of Lesnar's size...he was already tired vs Couture...(i was originally overestimating his stamina , but after seeing what he did vs couture , he clearly was already half drained in the 2nd round)..

Now just imagine fighting a guy with fedor's workrate.

To make an analogy , it's like keeping up with Calzaghe's rythm. Only fedor doesn't land slaps after slaps..he'll trying to submit nonstop or to simply attack with g&p.

[québecwarrior]

I agree with alot of this. If Brock learns submission defence, he's pretty much unstoppable, his arms and neck are so big and strong he doesn't need to worry about them, just focus on his leg sumbission defence.
Look Nog vs Bob Sapp

[Sweet Pea]

Where is the assumption that Nogueira is shot coming from?

[chimba]

:lol::lol: Lesnar has no subdefense. Iv surely not seen it yet. To be honest i wasnt impressed at all in his fight with Couture and found him to be quite static and far less dynamic than when he fought Herring. Maybe it was because he was pacing himself for 5 rounds.. The ending was awful and as a whole the fight wasnt up to much. It matters not as the first legitmate striker or submission specialist he faces and his toast. Id bet my house on Gonzaga to KO him in under a round thats real.

lol you almost had me til you mentioned Gonzaga, who looks great and SCARY with his poses against people who shouldnt even be fighting. Ill say it now, Gonzaga will go nowhere in this division and he will be slumped in the corner against Lesnar. I wouldnt pick Gonzaga over Herring. And yes I agree Lesnar is a limited MMA fighter but he is 100 times more of an athlete than Gonzaga, I mean that. And he seemed nervous Saturday night, could be why all of a sudden he looked sluggish.

And yes Fedor will ko Couture and submit Lesnar

[chimba]

Look Nog vs Bob Sapp

That was a lifetime ago. I repeat, you guys need to watch your MMA..Nog is Danas red herring for the UFC not being able to land Fedor. This man has two drops of blood remaining and Dana is trying to squeeze both. The UFC cant afford to give him another win as was the case in Herring, unfortunately, with the arrival of Brock and return of Randy, Nog is a lost away from being gone.

Look at the progression of his last few fights, he has regressed tremendously, he is slower than a snail. You can only get beat up for the first two rounds often enough, eventually he wont be able to pull the miracle sub and I wont bet on him pulling it off on Lesnar next year.

[AJAX]

He still has to get by Mir....people are acting like it's a shoe in for NOG. I think Mir gives him a great fight and wouldn't be surprised if he won.

[chimba]

I agree, Mir has become an afterthought in this fight. If he gets a leglock, this could be over fast. Id still go with Nog just because Mirs standup is so shitty.

[radianttwilight]

Where is the assumption that Nogueira is shot coming from?

Nog has been in a clear decline since 2006 or so... just looking at the fights.

His fight with Sylvia is probably the best example. Granted, Sylvia is an awkward guy to fight, but Nog has been relying more and more on just soaking up the punishment until he can make something happen via experience and BJJ. He was doing poorly against Sylvia in ways that he shouldn't prior to the finish.

He's had a long, brutal career, even for a relatively young guy. Just wear and tear.

EDIT - I guess I kind of avoided the question. Nog isn't entirely shot in the RJJ sense. Physically he is MUCH worse off than he was just a few years ago, look at the above poster's comment about how slow Nog is nowadays. Technically he's as good as ever, though, so he's still a very dangerous fighter. Sort of like Hopkins...

[chimba]

Im glad you are watching the fights because I thought I was in the there twilight zone for awhile

Forget Nog vs. Silva...Heath Herring beat Nog! fuckin Dana had to let the fight go on. If people dont believe me rewatch that fight

[BIG FELLA]

let's get real though...is it realistic to believe that EVEN in 2 or 3 years time , lesnar's sub defense will be as solid as Aoki , Jacare's or werdum's ? Because Lesnar wouldn't need to be "just good" at...He'd need to be totally devoted to it for years.

(that's what crocop tried to do...he worked his ass off in the sub defense department from 2003 to 2005... and the result ? yeah , solid defense but it ended up being useless because he wasted all his energy on the ground from constant attacks...he kepts defending and defending...and was dead tired at the end of the final round )...

Now imagine a guy of Lesnar's size...he was already tired vs Couture...(i was originally overestimating his stamina , but after seeing what he did vs couture , he clearly was already half drained in the 2nd round)..

Now just imagine fighting a guy with fedor's workrate.

To make an analogy , it's like keeping up with Calzaghe's rythm. Only fedor doesn't land slaps after slaps..he'll trying to submit nonstop or to simply attack with g&p.

Your talking a load of shit, Ive trained in BJJ Barra/Gracie (5 years now) and it dosnt make you a super hero like your thinking. All these guys may be able to tap him out but they may not also. What happens if he wrestles them to the ground and pounds on there head.
Im around 300 pounds and when i started at BJJ a few of the guys could submit me easily, Within 8 months they couldnt unless i made a really stupid mistake.

BJJ isnt the be all and end all.

[scurlaruntings]

Your talking a load of shit, Ive trained in BJJ Barra/Gracie (5 years now) and it dosnt make you a super hero like your thinking. All these guys may be able to tap him out but they may not also. What happens if he wrestles them to the ground and pounds on there head.
Im around 300 pounds and when i started at BJJ a few of the guys could submit me easily, Within 8 months they couldnt unless i made a really stupid mistake.

BJJ isnt the be all and end all.What happens is the trap a limp and you have the Frank Mir effect:yep Fedor did the same vs Hong Man Choi. Nog did the same vs Bob Sapp. Girth is really immaterial when your dealing with a quality BJJ artists. Royce Gracie proved this undoubtedly in the early UFC`s.

[BIG FELLA]

I see where your coming from Mate, But if he is seriously training in BJJ defence it isnt that huge a task for a man of his size. I train with a guy who has won numorous titles at around 200 pounds and he struggles to try and submit me. I am just much stronger than him and trying to submit my upper body is almost impossible for him.
If Brock is serious about this sport then he has the natural size and ability to be the best.

Its funny though how many are bagging him when honestly after 4 fights he is easily in the top 3 MMA fighters in the world.
Fedor wasnt this good after 4 fights and neither was any other MMA fighter.

[Dostoevsky]

I see where your coming from Mate, But if he is seriously training in BJJ defence it isnt that huge a task for a man of his size. I train with a guy who has won numorous titles at around 200 pounds and he struggles to try and submit me. I am just much stronger than him and trying to submit my upper body is almost impossible for him.
If Brock is serious about this sport then he has the natural size and ability to be the best.

Its funny though how many are bagging him when honestly after 4 fights he is easily in the top 3 MMA fighters in the world.
Fedor wasnt this good after 4 fights and neither was any other MMA fighter.

Maybe BJ was.

[scurlaruntings]

I see where your coming from Mate, But if he is seriously training in BJJ defence it isnt that huge a task for a man of his size. I train with a guy who has won numorous titles at around 200 pounds and he struggles to try and submit me. I am just much stronger than him and trying to submit my upper body is almost impossible for him.
If Brock is serious about this sport then he has the natural size and ability to be the best.

Its funny though how many are bagging him when honestly after 4 fights he is easily in the top 3 MMA fighters in the world.
Fedor wasnt this good after 4 fights and neither was any other MMA fighter.:huh Where on earth do you find a comparison between Fedor and Lesnar? Lesnar earned NOTHING to get his shot. He beat Herring and a guy who was half his size and 45 years old? Im pretty sure Bob Sapp could have done the same thing with as much ease as did Lesnar. Do you think Hong Man Choi did well in the K1 because of his skill? Like you said physical dimensions do pose alot of problems hence why we have weight categories.Obviously at heavy the top limitation is 265 which will cause many problems for smalll heavies like Couture. In days gone by the UFC heavy champs were all around 220 or below. Coleman Randleman Couture Bas etc. Lesnar is a unique athletic freak but please do not make any comparison between himself and Fedor. The diparity between the 2 is soooo great its not even funny. As for a comparison after 3-4 fights again thats entirely immaterial as Fedor was in "Rings" at the time which although close to MMA had a diffrent rule set. That aside he was also beating up quality mainstays like Arona Sobral and Takada. Thats easily better than anything Lesnar has accomplished in his very short career.

[boxingcar]

Your talking a load of shit, Ive trained in BJJ Barra/Gracie (5 years now) and it dosnt make you a super hero like your thinking. All these guys may be able to tap him out but they may not also. What happens if he wrestles them to the ground and pounds on there head.
Im around 300 pounds and when i started at BJJ a few of the guys could submit me easily, Within 8 months they couldnt unless i made a really stupid mistake.

BJJ isnt the be all and end all.

:huh super hero ?...was i truely giving you the feeling that i was associating bjj artists with superheros ? Something was lost in translation here....

I'm usually the guy who admits that nothing is ever certain in a fight (even against lesser experienced fighters) , especially in this sport.

I was just talking about a hypothetical version of Lesnar. (same guy only with a fedor or jacare-like sub defense & offense). I was saying that it wasn't realistic to believe that this guy would reach this level even in two years time.

I'm jus talking about Lesnar vs top level competition here.

By the way , i get the feeling that you took this one on a personal level.

No offense "BIG FELLA" , but..You training for + 5 years in bjj is a bit irrelevant here. Are you insinuating that "because" you've trained all these years , you're somehow , a voice of authority on the subject matter ? isn't it a logical fallacy in some way ?

There's professionals who gets submitted by other top level bjj artists all the time in this sport. I don't think i quite understand your point.

You're telling me that within 8 months , no one could submit you. Well congrats but it's not like you ever were confronted to the likes of Nogueira , Barnett or Penn right ? ... I mean you do realise that , for instance , when Werdum had to fight Nogueira , his bjj was totally nullified right ?...

What level of competition are you talking about here ?

There's guys who've been training bjj for years and who'll never reach the same level of certain mma top competitors. It's a fact. Just like there's plenty of guys who'v been training in kickboxing but who'll never be half the fighters Aerts or Hoost , Kaman were in their prime.

I thought i made myself clear in my previous message..

[boxingcar]

Its funny though how many are bagging him when honestly after 4 fights he is easily in the top 3 MMA fighters in the world.
Fedor wasnt this good after 4 fights and neither was any other MMA fighter.

1 He certainly isn't. (i'm sorry , but there's no legit proof to claim that he's easily a top 3 mma fighter at this point.

2 - You're right , Fedor was actually better. at the time. He was already submitting his opponents.

3 - I'm sorry but lots of other mma fighters were better too...
Want a few names ?

Nogueira.. at Lesnar's current career stage , Nog was already pulling a crucifix sub & armbars

Kharitonov , Barnett , Ricco..should i continue ?

[Cameron]

i thought this was common knowledge and anyone that thought randy or lesnar would beat fedor is just dumb.

[Tuffnutz]

Where is the assumption that Nogueira is shot coming from?

It's hard to tell with Nog becuase he's taken so many beatings but i was'nt happy with the way he looked in the Herring and Sylvia fights.

[codeman99998]

He isn't easily top 3. Fedor, Nog, and Mir are all better. That was so easy.