Do you think Frazier could have beat Vitali or Wladmir?

[Lacyace]

It's a question that has been sititng on my mind for weeks. I think most people would agree that Frazier is greater than the Klitschko brothers but could he beat either one in a P4P sense? Frazier is like 5'11 and I believe the majority of heavyweights Frazier faced were in the 6'0-6'3 range. Vitali is 6'8 and Wladmir is 6'6. They aren't lugs either, both Vitali and Wladmir can box. Could Frazier realistically win against these odds?

[Adaptation]

vitali, no

Wladimir, hell yes.

[PowerPuncher]

I think he can beat both but Vitali is actually the easier stylistic match up as he fights with a leaning back hands down style similar to Ali and has the same stylistic weaknesses. Vitali also doesn't have 1 punch power and telegraphs his shots

[Doppleganger]

He can beat Wlad for sure but Vitali is too big, too durable and too awkward. I would take Vitali on a comfortable decision over Frazier and wouldn't be surprised if he ground him down and stopped him.

[mr. magoo]

Wlad's suseptibility to the left hook may ultimately be his undoing in a fight against the greatest heavyweight left hooker of all time.

Vitali, while much slower and less skilled, at least has the size strength, chin, and less vulnerability to lefts.

My guess, is that Frazier would beat Wlad, but struggle like hell with Vitali.. But who knows?

[guilalah]

Could? Uh, yes.

[Cmoyle]

He'd K.O. both of them.

[Vanboxingfan]

I think these fights could go either way. Frazier would have a tough time against Vitali, and would be unlikely to win, as for Wlad, that's a harder one to predict. Wlad's not known for handling pressure very well, but he's got power to spare and is very fast..nevertheless, I'd go with Frazier on this match up.

[Holmes' Jab]

Frazier beats Bbth of them by TKO. I don't get this "he'd have a very tough time, and lose against Vitali" nonsense. A past his best and out of shape Lewis was trailing, but still managed to tear Vitali's face to shreds and stop him, a peak late 60's-early 70's Frazier is concievably going to wreck Vitali. Let's face it in terms of class Vitali isn't in the same ballpark as Lennox.

[janitor]

Absolutely yes.

Prime Frazier would be a nightmare for anybody. You would have to prove a hell of a lot in the ring to get picked over him.

In the case of the Klitschko brothers it is close but no cigar.

[mr. magoo]

Frazier beats Bbth of them by TKO. I don't get this "he'd have a very tough time, and lose against Vitali" nonsense. A past his best and out of shape Lewis was trailing, but still managed to tear Vitali's face to shreds and stop him, a peak late 60's-early 70's Frazier is concievably going to wreck Vitali. Let's face it in terms of class Vitali isn't in the same ballpark as Lennox.

Fair enough, but what similarities do you see between LL and JF, that leave you with the indication that Frazier would beat Vitali? Your point about Lewis being past it, and still winning is well noted, but frankly I see nothing that Lewis and Frazier have in common. Lewis was 6'5", 250 Lbs, and a right handed boxer-puncher. Frazier was around 5'11", 205 Lbs, and a swarmer who's best punch was the left hook. I really don't see the logic behind the Lewis-Frazier comparison.

[Arka]

I see Vitali-Frazier to be a bit like the Bonavena fight TBH.Both were durable ,not very fasts heavyweights with solid but not spectacular power.Bonavena didn't have Vitali's height but that height would work against the Ukranian when Frazier would get in close.

[Vanboxingfan]

Frazier beats Bbth of them by TKO. I don't get this "he'd have a very tough time, and lose against Vitali" nonsense. A past his best and out of shape Lewis was trailing, but still managed to tear Vitali's face to shreds and stop him, a peak late 60's-early 70's Frazier is concievably going to wreck Vitali. Let's face it in terms of class Vitali isn't in the same ballpark as Lennox.

It's not nonesense at all. Vitali just beat Peters who may not be in the same class as Frazier is no push over. Obviously I come from to school which says size matters and good big man beats a good small man.

You obviously think Fraziers skills are so superior to Vitali's that he overcomes the 9 inch height advantage, the 40lb weight difference and the mile or so reach advantage, I don't.

Say want you will about Vitali, he has proven power, stood toe to toe with an older but still extremely dangerous Lewis and showed he had a ton of guts and a chin.

All these taken together makes for a tough opponent.

[Arka]

It's not nonesense at all. Vitali just beat Peters who may not be in the same class as Frazier is no push over. Obviously I come from to school which says size matters and good big man beats a good small man.


Frazier at his best was more than good.That's the problem.:think

[Holmes' Jab]

Fair enough, but what similarities do you see between LL and JF, that leave you with the indication that Frazier would beat Vitali? Your point about Lewis being past it, and still winning is well noted, but frankly I see nothing that Lewis and Frazier have in common. Lewis was 6'5", 250 Lbs, and a right handed boxer-puncher. Frazier was around 5'11", 205 Lbs, and a swarmer who's best punch was the left hook. I really don't see the logic behind the Lewis-Frazier comparison.


I'm wasn't meaning to compare styles, just making a comment about how a past prime, disinterested great managed to beat Vitali. I'll be honest and say Vitali hasn't in his career beaten anyone to convince me he'd be taking out a prime Frazier, size and strength can come into play of course, but in this particular case I just see an unrelenting Frazier being able to get inside, pounding the body and head of Vitali and basically getting ontop of him and pushing him well outside of any sort of comfort zone. Vitali has an veyr solid chin of course and power, but in terms of movement even Ali found it hard to keep away from Frazier, he went life and death for the most part of three fights against him: I just don't think Vitali is going to pull a Foreman on Frazier, I really don't. I can see Liston and Lewis pulling the trick, just don't think Vitali is capable of doing so. My opinion. Frazier will eventually break him down and stop him.


Frazier TKO8.

[OBCboxer]

Frazier UD or possibly TKO. What Holmes' Jab said. Don't really feel like giving an analysis right now.

[Vanboxingfan]

Frazier at his best was more than good.That's the problem.:think


Maybe. Obviously it's a style fight. If Frazier can get inside and stay there he'd likely win, if Vitali uses his size, weight and reach he could cause Frazier problems. I'm not comparting Vitali to Foreman, that would be nuts, but it does show that Frazier is beatable.

I think any fighter it beatable, even Ali, it comes down to styles.

[Vanboxingfan]

I'm wasn't meaning to compare styles, just making a comment about how a past prime, disinterested great managed to beat Vitali. I'll be honest and say Vitali hasn't in his career beaten anyone to convince me he'd be taking out a prime Frazier, size and strength can come into play of course, but in this particular case I just see an unrelenting Frazier being able to get inside, pounding the body and head of Vitali and basically getting ontop of him and pushing him well outside of any sort of comfort zone. Vitali has an veyr solid chin of course and power, but in terms of movement even Ali found it hard to keep away from Frazier, he went life and death for the most part of three fights against him: I just don't think Vitali is going to pull a Foreman on Frazier, I really don't. I can see Liston and Lewis pulling the trick, just don't think Vitali is capable of doing so. My opinion. Frazier will eventually break him down and stop him.


Frazier TKO8.

That's certainly a possible outcome.

[punchy]

Frazier's relentless attack would simply wear both of them out, they I can see them going the distance even with Wlad's chin. I just can't see either of the boys knocking Frazier out and with Frazier's stamina he wins.

[teeto]

I think quite highly of Vitali, have done for a long time. It would be very hard for Frazier to beat him, though i think his pressure could do it, and Frazier is also faster by my reckononing, may do the scoriing. But i do think Vitali could beat him also, when you think that Foreman did it by thrashing him it seems unlikely that Vitali would emulate that performance stylistically, but when you think that Foreman did it by putting him on the back foot then Vitali has a case imo. Vitali is tough as nails and hits hard in his own right, awkward also, though i think Frazier's bobbing style in his prime would enable him to dodge a lot of shots, i think when Vitali gets up close, them awkward shots Vitali has in his arsenal can find their target. All in all, i think Frazier has a difficult night, no shame in that, i think they both have a difficult night, either man has a case, i would maybe lean towards Frazier as of his more proven status (dont wanna upset any1 here!!!, after all, we're in the CLASSIC)

Now Wlad, i think, and have always wanted the chance to express an opinion on this fight. Frazier will, brutalise him, brutalise him, did any1 not get that? BRUTAL KO.

[McGrain]

I think he should be made a favourite over both.

[Holmes' Jab]

I think he should be made a favourite over both.


Yeah, I think Wlad is a better fighter than Vitali, but Vitali give Frazier a harder fight of the two. Both bro's get stopped however, Wlad earlier.

[Muchmoore]

I see Wlad being the harder matchup due to his superior firepower compared to Vitali. Wlad has a chance to finish him early, but I'd go with Smokin Joe in 6.

Vitali isn't a big puncher, and I'd expect him to be broken down and finished off late.

[Muchmoore]

I see Wlad being the harder matchup due to his superior firepower compared to Vitali. Wlad has a chance to finish him early, but I'd go with Smokin Joe in 6.

Vitali isn't a big puncher, and I'd expect him to be broken down and finished off late.

[Mendoza]

It's a question that has been sititng on my mind for weeks. I think most people would agree that Frazier is greater than the Klitschko brothers but could he beat either one in a P4P sense? Frazier is like 5'11 and I believe the majority of heavyweights Frazier faced were in the 6'0-6'3 range. Vitali is 6'8 and Wladmir is 6'6. They aren't lugs either, both Vitali and Wladmir can box. Could Frazier realistically win against these odds?
I think Vitali stops Frazier. Frazier was one dimensional, small, and did not take the best punch. Sorry, films do not lie. Vitlai was not prone to being hit with hooks, and Frazier would have to reach way up there to land his money punch.

Frazier vs Wlad is close to pick ‘em. I do not think either could take each other’s best punches early. I lean a bit toward Frazier just because I think his pressure-oriented style would give him the edge to land the bomb first. Of course, with Wlad's developed clinching skills, he could smother Frazier as he did to Peter.

Frazier kind of struggled vs bigger boxers types, and never beat anyone who hit as hard as either Klitschko.

[Ted Spoon]

Despite the great size advantage in Vitali's favour, it does not count for as much as some think.

If you're not equipped to get a man off you then your game is lacking. Vitali does not have the necessary assertive flair to dart out of Frazier's honey spot up close. Frazier has the ability to bob up to the giant Ukrainian and make his game suffer with short pops that he can deliver faster than Vitali can retreat.

A Unanimous Decision or late stoppage for Smokin' Joe.

[he grant]

He ko's Wlad ...

Vitali is a much tougher fight because of his solid chin but in a fifteen round bout I'd say Joe tires him out and pounds out a decision.

[Doppleganger]

I see Wlad being the harder matchup due to his superior firepower compared to Vitali. Wlad has a chance to finish him early, but I'd go with Smokin Joe in 6.

Vitali isn't a big puncher, and I'd expect him to be broken down and finished off late. I dunno. You say Vitali isn't a big puncher but (i think) he still has the highest KO% of any heavyweight champion in history. He doesn't quite have a right hand like Shavers but the big guy grinds you down and gets you out of there. Frazier can be stopped and I know also that Vitali doesn't punch quite as hard as Foreman but he doesn't need to. Frazier will have a hard time landing those left hooks and Vitali will just hit him as he comes in. I don't think Frazier can take what Vitali dishes out for 12-15 rounds. It's not just his power though, it's the sheer size of the man too, plus his awkwardness. I'm not saying Frazier can't win but I would heavily back Vitali. I know a lot of people won't like that 'cos Smokin' Joe is a legend but it's just my honest opinion.

The determinant of this fight IMO is durability. Wlad is noticeably inferior to his brother in this regard so for me it's the easier fight for Joe, by some margin. The bottom line is that I feel certain Vitali can take whatever Frazier throws at him. I cannot say the same for Wlad.

[newbridgeboxing]

This is a no brainer Smoking Joe Frazier , Would destroy both of them, size would not matter with a prime frazier he was a ferocious fighter late 60s early 70s !! Frazier TKO 7

[Nick Balsamo]

It's not nonesense at all. Vitali just beat Peters who may not be in the same class as Frazier is no push over. Obviously I come from to school which says size matters and good big man beats a good small man.

You obviously think Fraziers skills are so superior to Vitali's that he overcomes the 9 inch height advantage, the 40lb weight difference and the mile or so reach advantage, I don't.

Say want you will about Vitali, he has proven power, stood toe to toe with an older but still extremely dangerous Lewis and showed he had a ton of guts and a chin.

All these taken together makes for a tough opponent.

I agree with that. Vitali range, power, chin and style could pose a serious problem for the shorter Frazier. Wlad could shake Frazier up but couldn't handle the pressure. Frazier by KO.

[radianttwilight]

I'd be very comfortable with betting on Frazier to UD or possibly stop Vitali late. Vitali isn't a big enough puncher to take Frazier out early, and his lean-back defense doesn't protect the body. Vitali does have great stamina... but so does Frazer.

Wladimir, on the other hand, does have the power to stop Frazier early ala Foreman... however, I wouldn't bet on it. I'd call this one 60/40 or 65/35 for Frazier to break him down and TKO him around 9.

[radianttwilight]

I dunno. You say Vitali isn't a big puncher but (i think) he still has the highest KO% of any heavyweight champion in history. He doesn't quite have a right hand like Shavers but the big guy grinds you down and gets you out of there.


KO% doesn't mean anything when your level of comp has been as bad as Vitali's. He easily has one of the worst, if not THE worst, resumes of ATG talent. Let's examine the "noteworthy" guys that he knocked out.

Hide TKO2. Sure, a glass-jawed cruiser. good performance, but doesn't mean he's a big puncher.

Ross Purrity TKO12 Only noteworthy because Purrity stopped his brother. Purrity is a journeyman at best.

Donald TKO10. Actually a good win over a survivalist like Donald, but let's not forget that Donald was never really that good.

Johnson TKO2. Semi-impressive because of the speed of stoppage, non-impressive because Johnson came in a fatty and was never anything more than a fringe contender at best, anyways.

Sanders TKO8. Only noteworthy because Sanders stopped his brother. Sanders was also a fringe contender at best that didn't even bother to come in in shape.

Williams TKO8. Good God... Williams was in grotesque shape for this fight. Who did Williams ever beat, anyway...?

Peter RTD9. Time will tell if Peter ever amounts to another more than a crude clubber. Impressive performance, but it's tainted by the fact that Peter did not come in at his best, did not fight to win, and may not be all that good in the first place.

Vitali backers also seem to forget that he has two losses, both by stoppage. That KO percentage drops quite a bit when you include more than just the fights he won in the calculations.

[Mendoza]

radianttwilight KO% doesn't mean anything when your level of comp has been as bad as Vitali's. He easily has one of the worst, if not THE worst, resumes of ATG talent. Let's examine the "noteworthy" guys that he knocked out.
At least you think Vitlai is an ATG then?


Hide TKO2. Sure, a glass-jawed cruiser. good performance, but doesn't mean he's a big puncher.

It took Bowe, a big puncher many more rounds.


Ross Purrity TKO12 Only noteworthy because Purrity stopped his brother. Purrity is a journeyman at best.
Stopping Purrity is not easy for anyone. Just ask Wlad, Morrison, Grant, Johnson, or a host of other guys who failed to do so.


Donald TKO10. Actually a good win over a survivalist like Donald, but let's not forget that Donald was never really that good.
And who else stopped Donald? No one Impressive stoppage. Don’t forget Vitlai stopped Vaugh Bean too, which is something neither Holyfield or Morrer could do.


Johnson TKO2. Semi-impressive because of the speed of stoppage, non-impressive because Johnson came in a fatty and was never anything more than a fringe contender at best, anyways.
Who else stopped or even knocked down Johnson?


Sanders TKO8. Only noteworthy because Sanders stopped his brother. Sanders was also a fringe contender at best that didn't even bother to come in in shape.
The same could be said for many others. Sanders was highly rated, and TKO'd.


Williams TKO8. Good God... Williams was in grotesque shape for this fight. Who did Williams ever beat, anyway...?
A few guys. Look it up.


Peter RTD9. Time will tell if Peter ever amounts to another more than a crude clubber. Impressive performance, but it's tainted by the fact that Peter did not come in at his best, did not fight to win, and may not be all that good in the first place.
Funny. Peter tired hard in round one, and was hit hard, and systematically beaten down. BTW, Vitlai is the lone man to stop Peter.

Stoppage wins over the likes of Peter, Bean, Donald, and Purity are very impressive. These people dull KO%, not add to them.


Vitali backers also seem to forget that he has two losses, both by stoppage. That KO percentage drops quite a bit when you include more than just the fights he won in the calculations.
Even with a cuts loss and an injury loss, Vitlai has the highest KO percentage of any champion in history. Vitlai was also never floored by a punch, and was the most dominant boxer on the cards I have ever seen. Even over fighters like Holmes and Ali who sometimes had their hands full vs lesser guys than the above names you mentioned. Oh-- And like Ali let's not forget Vitlai's lost some of his best years, not to politcs, but to injury which is harder to come back from.. Unlike Ali, Holmes and many others, Vitlai proved he can come back at age 37+ to win a world title belt. Sure Foreman did it, but he lost his first two chances, and needed a mircale come from behind KO to win.

Its not Vitlai's fault that Lewis or Byrd had little interest in a re-match.

[radianttwilight]

At least you think Vitlai is an ATG then?


ATG talent level, shitty resume.



It took Bowe, a big puncher many more rounds.


If you want to play this game, some guys named Chingangu and Kulikauskas stopped Hide in 2 and 3, so they must be ATG punchers, too.

Hide is NOT a durable fighter. Besides, Bowe fought Hide when he was undefeated and totally shattered him, it's arguable that Hide was a much better fighter before Bowe got a hold of him.

I don't think Bowe is THAT big of a puncher, anyway! More of a concussive type, which, oddly enough, is exactly what I'm calling Vitali.



Stopping Purrity is not easy for anyone. Just ask Wlad, Morrison, Grant, Johnson, or a host of other guys who failed to do so.


Purrity sucks. Regardless, it took VK eleven! rounds to stop him, hardly the mark of a "titanic ATG puncher" vs. a hopelessly outmatched opponent.

Morrison was a four round fighter even in his prime, Grant and Johnson were not that good in the first place, and certainly not impressive punchers/finishers.





And who else stopped Donald? No one Impressive stoppage.



Fair enough. My argument on this point was that Donald was not very good, not that he wasn't durable. Donald was 34 or 35 when he fought Vitali, too.


Don’t forget Vitlai stopped Vaugh Bean too, which is something neither Holyfield or Morrer could do.


Have you seen Holyfield-Bean? That was one of the worst versions of Holyfield pre-2003 or so...

Anyways, Vaughn Bean was terrible. Even if he had Chuvalo-esque durability, he was nowhere near a world-class fighter.


Who else stopped or even knocked down Johnson?


Who else got a hold of a 260lb Johnson? Johnson was under 235 at his best.

Second point - Name me the biggest puncher Johnson fought outside of Vitali Klitschko, other than maybe Maskaev, who had a glass jaw himself and was KO'd early.


The same could be said for many others. Sanders was highly rated, and TKO'd.


Come on. Sanders is a one-hit wonder with dubious durability at best. Nate Tubbs (who?) stopped him in two rounds and Rahman stopped him in 7, TEN and four years before Vitali knocked him out in more time (eight).

Second point - Sanders was 229 against Tubbs, 225 against Rahman, and 225 for his career highlight win over Wladimir.

He was 235 against Vitali, less than a year after the Wladimir win.

A few guys. Look it up.


If by "a few guys" you mean Kali Meehan, Michael Sprott (who also beat him), Audley Harrison (who also KO'd him), Matt Skelton (who also beat him), wow, I'm seeing a trend here. Not impressive. Oh, but I forgot he beat a shot shot SHOT Mike Tyson when Tyson's knee blew out while he was thrashing him!

Williams was stopped both before and after the Kiltschko fights, once by Sinan Samil Sam, who is NOT a good puncher by any means.



Funny. Peter tired hard in round one, and was hit hard, and systematically beaten down. BTW, Vitlai is the lone man to stop Peter.


Peter tiring hard in round one is exactly why I'm saying he was out of shape! Vitali dominated him, but let's face the facts here. Peter wasn't in his best shape and is probably not that good to begin with.

It still took Vitali a good number of rounds to stop Peter via corner intervention!!, if we're going to work this angle.


Stoppage wins over the likes of Peter, Bean, Donald, and Purity are very impressive. These people dull KO%, not add to them.


With the exception of Peter, these guys are all journeyman and, at their very BEST, extreme fringe contenders.


Even with a cuts loss and an injury loss, Vitlai has the highest KO percentage of any champion in history.


He also has the thinnest resume of most of the champions, too.


Vitlai was also never floored by a punch, and was the most dominant boxer on the cards I have ever seen.


These are great statistics, but you keep ignoring how bad his competition was.

Even over fighters like Holmes and Ali who sometimes had their hands full vs lesser guys than the above names you mentioned.


True, but they also beat much MUCH better guys than Vitali did.


Oh-- And like Ali let's not forget Vitlai's lost some of his best years, not to politcs, but to injury which is harder to come back from.. Unlike Ali, Holmes and many others, Vitlai proved he can come back at age 37+ to win a world title belt. Sure Foreman did it, but he lost his first two chances, and needed a mircale come from behind KO to win.


This is misleading. Ali lost his late twenties, the true physical prime years for a speedy heavy like him. Vitali lost several years in his thirties, not as crucial, even if it was due to injuries.

Do you think Peter is that much better than prime, undefeated Michael Moorer, even at heavyweight?

Want to poll the Classic Forum on Foreman from the Moorer fight taking on Peter from the VK fight?


Its not Vitlai's fault that Lewis or Byrd had little interest in a re-match.

It's no reason to hype up his poor resume, either.

[fists of fury]

As much as the huge gap in size could be an asset to either Klitschko, it could also work against them.

Have either fought a guy as short as Frazier? If he comes boring in, what target does he offer? It would be difficult for the brothers to connect cleanly because Fraziers bob and weave style together with his shortness would make it very tough for a 6'6" guy to target his chin.
Wlad has no uppercut to speak of (I don't know about Vitali) so the punch most ideally suited to beating Frazier isn't there.
Shit, even Ali had trouble connecting sometimes and he had faster hands and better accuracy than either Klitschko.

Frazier may have difficulty reaching their chins initially, but there is always the body, and only a fool would ignore such an inviting target.
For me, both fights hinge on whether Frazier can:

a) Get inside.
b) Avoid being tied up when inside.

Regarding point A, it will be tough at first. Frazier will have to deal with those telephone pole-like jabs, never easy when you're so much shorter. Both Klitschko's have good movement and Frazier will have his work cut out. My guess is that Joe would have to try and force the fight and fight at a fast pace, putting pressure if possible on the Klits.
He must not let either dictate the pace of the fight.
The thing with these giant fighters is that invariably they slow down by about round 5, no matter how good their conditioning. They are such huge men it's impossible to fight hard without getting winded.

If Joe can get past the first few rounds without taking too much abuse, his chances of winning rise exponentially. Frazier can fight hard for 15 rounds if he has to, neither Klitschko can.

As they start to tire, Frazier will start getting inside more and more.

This brings up point B. I'd imagine both brothers are stronger than Frazier and both are well-versed in the art of tying a man up. There inevitably be several occasions when Frazier is drawn in by those long arms and negated inside.
Frazier did prove to be fairly difficult to tie up on accasions though like in the FOTC when he'd bend over and push Ali off when Muhammad attempted to tie him up.
Frazier would need to let his hands work downstairs when they attempt to tie him up.
Fighting guys much larger than himself could tire Joe out more than usual. He would need to be clever and not let the big guys use their weight against him inside. Easier said than done obviously.
If he's still there by round 7 or 8, then Joe would take more and more control of the fight.

Many people see Vitali as the tougher opponent, but I disagree. Wladimir is for my money a bigger puncher than his brother, and he had the power to take Joe out, maybe even with one bomb. He also carries his power into the late rounds, although that would also be dependant on his fatigue levels.
I also don't see Frazier smashing Wlad all over the place, despite Wlad's less than great chin. He'd need to wear Wlad down.
Vitali on the other hand is an attrition fighter, same as Joe. Sure he can hit, but I don't see him taking Joe out of there quickly. This plays right into Joe's hands. Does Vitali dare fight fire with fire?

Interesting question.

[sauhund II]

Let's see,

I don't get the Frazier glorification and I am actually old enough to see him fight when he was active.

Was he a good fighter , no doubt but he ain't superman. No Ali exile no Joe Frazier World champion. fact.

He is also 1 and FOUR in his signature fights, 3 by KO/Tko. That in my book is nothing to write home about, in two of his losses he was totally uncompetitive aka total blow out and if someone cries now that he was "finished" for the Foreman fights I have to kindly remind you that a totally washed up shell of a shell Tyson WON at least one round against a much more formidable opponent (Lewis) while Frazier was bounced around like a ping pong ball.

His other noteworthy opponents Quarry, Bonavena etc are roughly imo in the same league as the Sanders, Johnsons, Peter , Hide etc while even winning/carrying some ABC belts. Despite all that Frazier was knocked down or wobbled several times in his career until the Ali/Foreman fights, his chin is certainly not grade A. Fact.

Now lets go the fights, his best chance are against WK IF he jumps him early but Frazier was a relative slow starter so that theory goes out the window. I just can't see him winning a boxing contest against WK, that jackhammer jab/hook of the jab/laser straight right plus 240-250 pounds leaning and clinching on him constantly when he comes in are huge obstacles to overcome. I just don't see him walking thru the same fire Brewster went to get to WK due to his chin and size. Stylewise Tyson would be a pure nightmare for WK but Frazier ain't no Tyson not even close. I suspect he would have a hard time "smoking" while eating nonstop hardjabs and rights.

So I would make him a live underdog if the would fight straight out of a timemachine.

With all due respect, unless injuries are involved , I cannot convince myself that he has more than slim chance to succeed against the older VK. Never been down, never behind on the cards, never been seriously hurt or outboxed ever, even in his injury related losses, he is one tough son of a bitch who will give everybody in history the fight of their live. He will win and loose some but you better bring your A+ game in order to deal with him otherwise it gets ugly quick. That uppercut he took from Lewis would have sparked Frazier into the next zipcode, no way Jose would he have taken that shot.

I see this fight playing out similar than the Foreman fight, Frazier, like in the Foreman fight landing a couple of left hooks with no effect and getting hit with jabs/crosses/uppercuts , VK has another ~3-4 inches/30 pound lean muscle on Foreman so Frazier has to climb a even bigger hill.

Anything can happen in boxing but I just don't see it once one looks at it with the head not heart and leaves skin color out.

VK victim Olin Norris , certainly no Frazier , with not a lot of pop but similar boxing skills , better chin imo and close build, height and weight to Frazier could be used as a poor mans copy of the hypothetical VK/Frazier fight and the potential outcome.

[Doppleganger]

With all due respect, unless injuries are involved , I cannot convince myself that he has more than slim chance to succeed against the older VK. Never been down, never behind on the cards, never been seriously hurt or outboxed ever, even in his injury related losses, he is one tough son of a bitch who will give everybody in history the fight of their live. He will win and loose some but you better bring your A+ game in order to deal with him otherwise it gets ugly quick. That uppercut he took from Lewis would have sparked Frazier into the next zipcode, no way Jose would he have taken that shot. I agree. I think many in this thread are simply thinking with their hearts, not their head. If a 250lb destructive puncher like Lewis can't move Vitali then neither can Frazier IMO. Really, Vitali should be fighting in a different weight category than Frazier - he's a much bigger man - but there isn't one. Vitali is by no means a top 10 heavyweight on accomplishments but H2H it's a far different matter. He's a live underdog and would give any fighter a real, rigorous test. Injuries are the most likely way that Fraizer would win any fight.

[Mendoza]

radianttwilight ATG talent level, shitty resume.

I see how this is going to go. Vitlai did not make his name on washed up older name fighters. His resume is " shitty "/ Gotcha.


If you want to play this game, some guys named Chingangu and Kulikauskas stopped Hide in 2 and 3, so they must be ATG punchers, too.

Hide is NOT a durable fighter. Besides, Bowe fought Hide when he was undefeated and totally shattered him, it's arguable that Hide was a much better fighter before Bowe got a hold of him.

I don't think Bowe is THAT big of a puncher, anyway! More of a concussive type, which, oddly enough, is exactly what I'm calling Vitali.

Playing the age card already? Sorry, Vitlai stopped Hide was young, and needed a lot less punches than Bowe to do it. Bowe was a big puncher.


Purrity sucks. Regardless, it took VK eleven! rounds to stop him, hardly the mark of a "titanic ATG puncher" vs. a hopelessly outmatched opponent.

Morrison was a four round fighter even in his prime, Grant and Johnson were not that good in the first place, and certainly not impressive punchers/finishers.

Purrity went many rounds with Wlad, Morrison, Grant, Johnson, C. Sanders, Hipp, Gonzalez, Grant, Rhaman, Dimitrenko and others. These guys could not stop Purrity. You're so wrong, stopping Purrity is impressive. You would be hard pressed to name a fighter who fought better punchers than Purrity.


Fair enough. My argument on this point was that Donald was not very good, not that he wasn't durable. Donald was 34 or 35 when he fought Vitali, too.

If the judges were fair, Donald beats Valuev on points. If life were fair, Donald was not stuck with Don King.


Have you seen Holyfield-Bean? That was one of the worst versions of Holyfield pre-2003 or so...

Anyways, Vaughn Bean was terrible. Even if he had Chuvalo-esque durability, he was nowhere near a world-class fighter.

Holyfeild in 1998 had trouble with Bean. This was Holyfield pre-Ruiz, and he was not that shot. Moorer also had his hands full with Bean in 1997. However Vitlai dominated Bean, won every round besides the 9th, and became the lone man to stop Bean in 51 fights.


Who else got a hold of a 260lb Johnson? Johnson was under 235 at his best.

Second point - Name me the biggest puncher Johnson fought outside of Vitali Klitschko, other than maybe Maskaev, who had a glass jaw himself and was KO'd early.

Johnson weight was not an issue in a short fight. Vitlai's power was. Maskeav can hit, Johnson took his stuff, then landed a counter hook for the KO. Saveresse can hit a bit too, and Johnson beat him.


Come on. Sanders is a one-hit wonder with dubious durability at best. Nate Tubbs (who?) stopped him in two rounds and Rahman stopped him in 7, TEN and four years before Vitali knocked him out in more time (eight).

Second point - Sanders was 229 against Tubbs, 225 against Rahman, and 225 for his career highlight win over Wladimir.

He was 235 against Vitali, less than a year after the Wladimir win.

Sanders nealry Ko'd the best version of Rhaman, the guy who KO'd Lewis. So Sanders lost to Tubbs. Most top ten heavies are upset. You're ingnoring Sanders win over Wlad, and string of early Ko's vs Sprott, Cole, Valdez, Deleon, Cooper, and Czyz.


If by "a few guys" you mean Kali Meehan, Michael Sprott (who also beat him), Audley Harrison (who also KO'd him), Matt Skelton (who also beat him), wow, I'm seeing a trend here. Not impressive. Oh, but I forgot he beat a shot shot SHOT Mike Tyson when Tyson's knee blew out while he was thrashing him!

Williams was stopped both before and after the Kiltschko fights, once by Sinan Samil Sam, who is NOT a good puncher by any means.

I never said Williams was a top guy, I said he beat some top guys. We have seen worse get title shots as of late. For instance, SKelton and Meehan got title shots, and Williams beat them both. The thing to focus on here is how easily Vitlai wins. Again, many ATG's struggle vs tier two guys. Vitlai, because he has too much to offer does not. You fail to give credit where credit it due.


Peter tiring hard in round one is exactly why I'm saying he was out of shape! Vitali dominated him, but let's face the facts here. Peter wasn't in his best shape and is probably not that good to begin with.

It still took Vitali a good number of rounds to stop Peter via corner intervention!!, if we're going to work this angle.

Peter was hurt, and lost heart after taking a beating, and being outclassed. Peter was not gassed late in the fight.

This is misleading. Ali lost his late twenties, the true physical prime years for a speedy heavy like him. Vitali lost several years in his thirties, not as crucial, even if it was due to injuries.

Do you think Peter is that much better than prime, undefeated Michael Moorer, even at heavyweight?

No, it is not misleading. The older you are, the harder the come back is. Ali was 29 when he came back, Vitlai was 37. Plus he had to over come inurty and had zero warm up fights. Again, you can't be objective. I think Peter knocks Moorer out. Moorer could not take a big punch.

[Mendoza]

fists of fury As much as the huge gap in size could be an asset to either Klitschko, it could also work against them.

Have either fought a guy as short as Frazier? If he comes boring in, what target does he offer? It would be difficult for the brothers to connect cleanly because Frazier’s bob and weave style together with his shortness would make it very tough for a 6'6" guy to target his chin.

The Klitschko's have their way with short guys for the most part. Fighters like Byrd, Bean, Norris, Peter, and Mercer come to mind. Fraizer did some bob and weave, but he was not Mike Tyson in the early rounds. When Ali jabbed he controlled the fight. When he rested on the ropes, or got caught in the corners, Frazier controlled the fight. Vitlai spends the least amount of time on the ropes or in the corners of any heavyweight champion, I have ever seen. Wlad does not hang on the ropes either. Both have high punch out put and use their legs to keep the best distance for them. Vitlai is the better in-fighter and counter puncher of the two, Wlad has better short punch power.



Wlad has no uppercut to speak of (I don't know about Vitali) so the punch most ideally suited to beating Frazier isn't there.

Vitlai uses the uppercut when it makes sense. Wlad doesn't throw the punch much.


Frazier may have difficulty reaching their chins initially, but there is always the body, and only a fool would ignore such an inviting target.
For me, both fights hinge on whether Frazier can:

a) Get inside.
b) Avoid being tied up when inside.

Agreed, but even if Frazier gets inside, I think mostly dangerous when he has his man backed up on the ropes. I would add " C " has his man backed on the ropes or in the corners.


Regarding point A, it will be tough at first. Frazier will have to deal with those telephone pole-like jabs, never easy when you're so much shorter. Both Klitschko's have good movement and Frazier will have his work cut out. My guess is that Joe would have to try and force the fight and fight at a fast pace, putting pressure if possible on the Klits.
He must not let either dictate the pace of the fight.

The thing with these giant fighters is that invariably they slow down by about round 5, no matter how good their conditioning. They are such huge men it's impossible to fight hard without getting winded.

This is how I see it, though I think Frazier can keep throwing punches. Vitlai in fact throws more punches than Frazier did in most of his fights.


If Joe can get past the first few rounds without taking too much abuse, his chances of winning rise exponentially. Frazier can fight hard for 15 rounds if he has to, neither Klitschko can.

Unknown Vitlai seems to have enough left to score late stoppages. Same with Wlad. Their opponents all say they have top stamina. I think Vitlai could go a hard 15. Wlad, I'm not as sure of.



This brings up point B. I'd imagine both brothers are stronger than Frazier and both are well-versed in the art of tying a man up. There inevitably be several occasions when Frazier is drawn in by those long arms and negated inside. Frazier did prove to be fairly difficult to tie up on accasions though like in the FOTC when he'd bend over and push Ali off when Muhammad attempted to tie him up. Frazier would need to let his hands work downstairs when they attempt to tie him up. Fighting guys much larger than himself could tire Joe out more than usual. He would need to be clever and not let the big guys use their weight against him inside.

I think Frazier does not have a lot of functional strenght, and is easy to grab, or move around. In addition, he is giving up 40+ pounds. One point to consider, both K-Bros are smart fighters. They know Frazier has no real uppercut, jab or cross, so the defense would be shifted toward the hook.


Many people see Vitali as the tougher opponent, but I disagree. Wladimir is for my money a bigger puncher than his brother, and he had the power to take Joe out, maybe even with one bomb. He also carries his power into the late rounds, although that would also be dependant on his fatigue levels. I also don't see Frazier smashing Wlad all over the place, despite Wlad's less than great chin. He'd need to wear Wlad down.
Vitali on the other hand is an attrition fighter, same as Joe. Sure he can hit, but I do not see him taking Joe out of there quickly. This plays right into Joe's hands. Does Vitali dare fight fire with fire?

Neither Klitschko is likely to lose a decision. They are too good to be out boxed by the likes of just about anyone. However, Wlad to me can be stopped with hard punches. Medium level punchers do not bother Wlad much, but hard one or two shot KO guys like Brewster or Sanders do. I think Sanders and Brewster are better KO artists than Frazier is and hit a tad harder. I seen Frazier unload hook after hook and grind his man down. With Sanders or Brewster it BOOM, then the KO happens. While I think Wlad hits harder than Vitlai, I think Vitlai oddly enough lands shots to the vulnerable areas, and is sneaky in terms of landing stuff through the gloves, or on the body. Frazier to me does not last the full fight is both K-bros land as often as they do. I think he needs to close the show. He can do that vs Wlad, a bit easier than Vitlai, though he might be more prone to getting bombed out vs Wlad early.

[Arka]

This brings up point B. I'd imagine both brothers are stronger than Frazier and both are well-versed in the art of tying a man up. There inevitably be several occasions when Frazier is drawn in by those long arms and negated inside.


Isn't this one aspect of their game that they are or were notoriously unwilling to learn?

"One thing's for sure. Klitschko will fight like he always does. The man can't, and won't change. I discovered that when he parted ways with Freddie Roach after the trainer tried to show him how to clinch, when in trouble. The brothers weren't interested. Perhaps someone should have told them that if Wladimir clinched, he could have prevented his two knockout losses to lesser opposition."
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

They apparently used to hold the strange idea that it was inglorious and dishonourable to clinch your opponent,during a fight. :D

[fists of fury]

Neither Klitschko is likely to lose a decision. They are too good to be out boxed by the likes of just about anyone.

If Joe wins by decision, I'd imagine it would be through sheer workrate, which (against Vitali at least) is the only way he can win.

Good comments overall, Mendoza.

[fists of fury]

They apparently used to hold the strange idea that it was inglorious and dishonourable to clinch your opponent,during a fight. :D

Interesting article Arka. It's certainly a noble mindset if nothing else. :good

[ChrisPontius]

Well, that's another factor. Frazier going to have a lot of trouble coming in and reaching up with those hooks, what if Wlad simply ties him up? It makes for an ugly fight, but you have to realise this: if Frazier is unable to fight on the inside because of that, he will be a sitting duck.

People say go to the body, but it's a lot easier said than done. Especially against Wladimir. His footwork is very good which makes his body very hard to reach effectively. Brock, Peter and Brewster tried and had very little success. And like Merchant said: "He doesn't have a glass body". I don't think a 240lbs man takes a better punch to the chin than a 210lbs one, but that extra mass sure helps absorbing body shots. Has anyone ever been effective by going to Wlad, Vitali, Lewis or Bowe's body's?



Two more things to take into account:

-Frazier is a good hitter but not a one-punch KO type of guy. He always has to wear his opponents down and will have to do the same here, even against Wladimir. On top of that, his hook will lose a lot of power from punching up all the way from 5'11 to a 6'7 opponent. Watch how incredibly hard it was for Tua and Tyson to connect with left hooks on Lewis, who is shorter than either Klitschko.

The referee will also play an important factor. If Wlad is allowed to hold as much as he does now (or as much as Ali was), then i have a hard time imaging Frazier getting any work done at all. If he's allowed to shove Frazier back like Foreman was, it becomes even worse news for the Philadelphian fighter.

Frazier is the greater fighter, but i think he'd struggle badly against both of them.

[Ezzard]

I do believe that the Klit's are underrated. I think Frazier is too.

It's a matter of size versus stamina. If Frazier gets going he could out punch and out point Vitali over 15. He could get tagged with a big shot and come undone. It's a close one.

Against Wlad he can score a KO. Frazier will still have a lot on that left hook come the championship rounds and I think he gets to Wlad.

[PowerPuncher]

Well, that's another factor. Frazier going to have a lot of trouble coming in and reaching up with those hooks,

1. what if Wlad simply ties him up? It makes for an ugly fight, but you have to realise this: if Frazier is unable to fight on the inside because of that, he will be a sitting duck.

2. People say go to the body, but it's a lot easier said than done. Especially against Wladimir. His footwork is very good which makes his body very hard to reach effectively. Brock, Peter and Brewster tried and had very little success. And like Merchant said: "He doesn't have a glass body". I don't think a 240lbs man takes a better punch to the chin than a 210lbs one, but that extra mass sure helps absorbing body shots. Has anyone ever been effective by going to Wlad, Vitali, Lewis or Bowe's body's?

3. Frazier is a good hitter but not a one-punch KO type of guy. He always has to wear his opponents down and will have to do the same here, even against Wladimir.

4. On top of that, his hook will lose a lot of power from punching up all the way from 5'11 to a 6'7 opponent. Watch how incredibly hard it was for Tua and Tyson to connect with left hooks on Lewis, who is shorter than either Klitschko.

5. The referee will also play an important factor. If Wlad is allowed to hold as much as he does now (or as much as Ali was), then i have a hard time imaging Frazier getting any work done at all. If he's allowed to shove Frazier back like Foreman was, it becomes even worse news for the Philadelphian fighter.

Frazier is the greater fighter, but i think he'd struggle badly against both of them.

1. The Superior Ali did this but still had a world of trouble against Frazier, and you think Wlad won't?

2. Frazier wouldn't just goto the body, since when have the Klits had better defenses than Ali? :roll: And Brewster and Sanders had plenty of left hand success with Wladdy

3. Firstly Frazier is a better puncher than Brewster/Sanders, secondly Frazier brings pressure and Wlad fades down the stretch, Vitali's mouth hangs open after a few rounds. The body shots from Brewster also broke Wlad down

4. Both Tyson and Tua landed left hooks and ko'd fighters ranging from 6'3-6'7 and both are shorter than Frazier. Should we take that to mean Frazier can land and KO his man?

5. Again Ali didn't have an easy time in fights 2 & 3 so Wlad and Vitali wouldn't

[mr. magoo]

Well, that's another factor. Frazier going to have a lot of trouble coming in and reaching up with those hooks, what if Wlad simply ties him up? It makes for an ugly fight, but you have to realise this: if Frazier is unable to fight on the inside because of that, he will be a sitting duck.

People say go to the body, but it's a lot easier said than done. Especially against Wladimir. His footwork is very good which makes his body very hard to reach effectively. Brock, Peter and Brewster tried and had very little success. And like Merchant said: "He doesn't have a glass body". I don't think a 240lbs man takes a better punch to the chin than a 210lbs one, but that extra mass sure helps absorbing body shots. Has anyone ever been effective by going to Wlad, Vitali, Lewis or Bowe's body's?



Two more things to take into account:

-Frazier is a good hitter but not a one-punch KO type of guy. He always has to wear his opponents down and will have to do the same here, even against Wladimir. On top of that, his hook will lose a lot of power from punching up all the way from 5'11 to a 6'7 opponent. Watch how incredibly hard it was for Tua and Tyson to connect with left hooks on Lewis, who is shorter than either Klitschko.

The referee will also play an important factor. If Wlad is allowed to hold as much as he does now (or as much as Ali was), then i have a hard time imaging Frazier getting any work done at all. If he's allowed to shove Frazier back like Foreman was, it becomes even worse news for the Philadelphian fighter.

Frazier is the greater fighter, but i think he'd struggle badly against both of them.

A very articulate post....I can't disagree.

[kenmore]

I say that Frazier definitely beats Vlad and that he probably beats Vitali. The difference in durability between the brothers is a big factor in these fights.

Ironically, even though Vitali would have much more of a chance against Frazier than Vlad, of the two brothers, Vlad would probably inflict more damage on Frazier. This is because Vlad is a more dangerous puncher than Vitali.

Against Vlad, Frazier would take some mean right hands and he might be knocked down once or twice. Vlad could have hurt Frazier. But I envision Joe arising from the knockdowns and pressing a torrid inside attack that Vlad cannot resist for reasons of style and durability. Frazier would probably finish Vlad off between the fourth and seventh rounds. I think Vlad would probably take the full count.

Vitali would definitely last much longer against Frazier than Vlad, and he'd take less punishment. I envision Vitali possibly going the distance with Joe and losing a decision. Another possibility is that Frazier finishes off a tired Vitali very late in the fight, with Frazier's left hook being the decisive blow. Vitali would have given Frazier trouble because of his height, durability and awkward style, but eventually Frazier would assume the upper hand in the fight and he'd be leading on points at the knockout or the final bell.

[Minotauro]

I think he would beat both decision over Vitali and mid round stoppage over Wlad.

[kevin christie]

Smokin' Joe could hardly handle the plodding ox Oscar Bonavena. The Klitschkos have great leverage and confidence and would repeatedly expose the Jamaican for his c-r-a-p-p-y chin. He was like a fast moving Sam Peter with no skill and no chin------------Absolutely Not

[he grant]

Tyson was shot v.s. Lewis and Tua was a fat, one punch at a time plodder v.s. Lennox ... in addition, Wlad is not Lennox ...

Sam Peter, maybe 6' himself, almost had Wlad beat. Frazier was a murderous puncher. If not a one punch KO artist he was a two punch KO artist. Ali and Foreman have both said this on the record. In addition, Frazier was so much quicker than Peter threw so many more punches ... He definately crushes the china chinned Wlad ... again, the older brother is made of sterner stuff and would last longer but his stamina has always been a question when pushed and I feel Frazier pounds him out over 15 rounds.

Chris' point about holding is a good one and who the ref would be would have a major impact as it did in the second Ali fight.

[ripcity]

No.

[sauhund II]

Tyson was shot v.s. Lewis and Tua was a fat, one punch at a time plodder v.s. Lennox ... in addition, Wlad is not Lennox ...

Sam Peter, maybe 6' himself, almost had Wlad beat. Frazier was a murderous puncher. If not a one punch KO artist he was a two punch KO artist. Ali and Foreman have both said this on the record. In addition, Frazier was so much quicker than Peter threw so many more punches ... He definately crushes the china chinned Wlad ... again, the older brother is made of sterner stuff and would last longer but his stamina has always been a question when pushed and I feel Frazier pounds him out over 15 rounds.

Chris' point about holding is a good one and who the ref would be would have a major impact as it did in the second Ali fight.
Huh ?

Frazier is by no means a murderous puncher...........his only reaL punch is the left hook and both Tyson /Tua hit way harder with it. While he is more technical sound and has more snap in his punches than Peter he is no match for Peters pure strengh, not even close. Foreman bounced /pushedFrazier around like a little kid, he will not do the same to Peter. Would Foreman beat Peter ? Sure, but it would take a lot longer to stomp him in the ground than it took him to crush Frazier.

VK has stamina issues ? Since when ? Because he fights with a open mouth as early as the second round ? Thats just a habit I guess because I have never ever seen him gassed or significantly reducing his punchout put/workrate due to stamina. Even in the heavy action Lewis fight Lewis fell on his chair not VK.

I recommend some of the posters to actually go to a gym and watch some sparring...............yeah it all looks so easy to beat a big skilled man with a terrific jab and a fight ending right behind, lol, lol, once you realise you have to go thru this 80 + inch jab/reach kill zone to deliver your shots things change in a heartbeat.

I am absolutly convinced Frazier WILL NOT take those shots both Klitchkos landed on Peter or VK administered to Sanders or Williams. So him simply walking thru, getting k'down and simply shaking it off are absurd.

He can beat WK if he crowd/bumrushes him and the younger Klitchko panics but he will not survive if WK keeps him at the end of his jab.

As far as VK is concerned, no 205 pound fighter, I don't care how good he is , is going toe to toe with VK and that is exactly what Frazier would need to do to win............ain't happening.

[Mendoza]

Huh ?

Frazier is by no means a murderous puncher...........his only reaL punch is the left hook and both Tyson /Tua hit way harder with it. While he is more technical sound and has more snap in his punches than Peter he is no match for Peters pure strengh, not even close. Foreman bounced /pushedFrazier around like a little kid, he will not do the same to Peter. Would Foreman beat Peter ? Sure, but it would take a lot longer to stomp him in the ground than it took him to crush Frazier.

VK has stamina issues ? Since when ? Because he fights with a open mouth as early as the second round ? Thats just a habit I guess because I have never ever seen him gassed or significantly reducing his punchout put/workrate due to stamina. Even in the heavy action Lewis fight Lewis fell on his chair not VK.

I recommend some of the posters to actually go to a gym and watch some sparring...............yeah it all looks so easy to beat a big skilled man with a terrific jab and a fight ending right behind, lol, lol, once you realise you have to go thru this 80 + inch jab/reach kill zone to deliver your shots things change in a heartbeat.

I am absolutly convinced Frazier WILL NOT take those shots both Klitchkos landed on Peter or VK administered to Sanders or Williams. So him simply walking thru, getting k'down and simply shaking it off are absurd.

He can beat WK if he crowd/bumrushes him and the younger Klitchko panics but he will not survive if WK keeps him at the end of his jab.

As far as VK is concerned, no 205 pound fighter, I don't care how good he is , is going toe to toe with VK and that is exactly what Frazier would need to do to win............ain't happening.
Excellent post. There seems to be a real disconnect here between the reality of fighting a very good big man with speed, and skills and fighting a big man with limited speed and skills. I have been saying this for years.

The Klitschko's are not Jess Willard or Buddy Bear. Since the inception of skilled " super heavies " with power…( Bowe, Lewis, and both Klitschko's ) the top heavyweight spot has gone to a very skilled big man. Where are the 205 pounders? They are almost extinct as legit top 5 heavyweight talents, and I do not expect this to change anytime soon. 30-40 years before that, men like Liston, Ali, Foreman, and Holmes enjoyed a big time size advantage for the most part.

Don’t get me wrong, a 205 pounder can beat a 250 pounder. These are heavies, but he’s going to need great power. Great power alone can win any fight. A top chin, excellent skills and speed are also needed to compensate for the lack of size, weight, and striking distance too.

Basically, Frazier is giving up 40+ pounds in weight, 7” in reach, and 6-7” in height here. He does not have great one punch power, and is questionable in the chin department, and limited in terms of variety on offense.

Frazier fans should watch the full version of the Buster Mathis fight. Mathis was big—about 20 pounds over weight, yet he was actually ahead of Frazier until round seven, then his extra weight, and Frazier’s pressure cost him until the fight ended in round 11. This was a prime Frazier, so there you have it, Frazier struggled vs a tier two big man contender.

[fists of fury]

As far as VK is concerned, no 205 pound fighter, I don't care how good he is , is going toe to toe with VK and that is exactly what Frazier would need to do to win............ain't happening.

Just a quick question, off topic.

How do you see a 205 pound Holyfield (The version that fought Bowe the first time) doing against Vitali?

[sauhund II]

Just a quick question, off topic.

How do you see a 205 pound Holyfield (The version that fought Bowe the first time) doing against Vitali?
Well, Holyfield always blew hot and cold and the two skilled big men he met he ended on the losing end four times.. IMO without the fan man he would have lost the second Bowe fight too.

Holyfield fought way to much tit for tat with the bigger fighters and did not have enough firepower to scare them off. Even old geezers like Foreman and Holmes did not respect his power. Most heavyweights can crack but he never was known for devasting punching power, he attributes were stubbornness, pride, great counterpuching abilities, athletism and the willingness to do almost anything aka slick fouls.

Bowe was a superior infighter than Vk but he beat Holyfield on the outside as well in their first fight but ultimatly Holyfield tendency to brawl with a significantly bigger guy (see tit for tat above) was his undoing. I see a similar outcome if you repLace Bowe with VK, UD , I don't think Holy would get stopped.

Bowe and Holyfield are emotional not thinking fighters in a sense, can they adjust and overcome adversety , sure, but they feed off from their emotions.
VK and Lewis are , what I would call calculating "smart" fighters who take more of a chessmatch approach to impose their will on their opponents.

I don't really know what to make of Holyfield, he got a lot of miles from beating a no longer interested in the fight game Tyson but otherwise.......

[rusty nails]

frazier makes the klits fight every second of every round and stops them in around 9 rounds the same way brewster did..

[Russell]

I'd favor Frazier over Vitali.

Paws way too much with his jab. If a prime Frazier can bob, weave and get under Ali's lightning fast jabs Vitali is going to get hooked to death.

Vitali's ultra durable... But how does he take it to the body? What's going to stop Frazier from making him take a knee like he did Buger and Quarry?

Vitali's stamina has always been iffy as well. Not poor, but he's definitely tired and doesn't fight at the measured pace of Wladimir.

[Russell]

Frazier fans should watch the full version of the Buster Mathis fight. Mathis was big—about 20 pounds over weight, yet he was actually ahead of Frazier until round seven, then his extra weight, and Frazier’s pressure cost him until the fight ended in round 11. This was a prime Frazier, so there you have it, Frazier struggled vs a tier two big man contender.

Frazier was extremely close to Mathis outside of the ring. He wasn't anything approaching the hell bent demon walk through fire fighter that he was against Ali.

[Bummy Davis]

tough fights for Smoking Joe, Frazier was fast with his double hook but left himself open....The Frazier of Ali 1 could survive early vs Vlad and put pressure on but any other version of Frazier would lose to both men...Hard styles for Frazier but he has a punchers chance to hurt Vlad somwhere and start an avalanche stiill he has to overcome the jab and strait right not to mention the hook and the Vlad of NOW has very good movement behind the jab....Vitali with his awkward style would control the fight....Klitschko's hard opponents

[ljj]

The K-brothers are just too big and strong for frazier and they would keep him at a distance and break him quickly...for the TKO!

[round15]

Prime Frazier, 1967-1970 KO's both Klitschko Brothers inside 8 rounds. They wouldn't be able to handle his pressure, pace and body attack. Frazier is a slow starter? What? Sure, when compared to Ali.

Both Klitschko Brothers probably have a better than solid chance at beating the 1973, over confident, overweight, out of shape version of Joe Frazier that Foreman manhandled in two rounds. I don't think they have the finishing power or killer instinct that Foreman brought to the fight against Frazier, so I doubt that either Klitschko could KO this Frazier within two rounds.

[Grebfan9]

VITALI Klitschko could potentially pose a problem for Frazier.

I recall that when Frazier fought big heavyweights (Buster Mathis)
and strong heavyweights (Bonavena), Frazier was extended and
was in tough fights.

Vitali hits much harder than Mathis, is taller and uses his height to
the maximum advantage. If Vitali were to start landing his right
hand often, he could possibly upset Frazier.


Grebfan9
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[Russell]

VITALI Klitschko could potentially pose a problem for Frazier.

I recall that when Frazier fought big heavyweights (Buster Mathis)
and strong heavyweights (Bonavena), Frazier was extended and
was in tough fights.

Vitali hits much harder than Mathis, is taller and uses his height to
the maximum advantage. If Vitali were to start landing his right
hand often, he could possibly upset Frazier.


Grebfan9
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Frazier was very good friends with Mathis. Pretty sure he wasn't trying to decapitate him like he was Ali.

[$.02]

vitali, no

Wladimir, hell yes.


Ditto.

[Sakura]

VITALI Klitschko could potentially pose a problem for Frazier.

I recall that when Frazier fought big heavyweights (Buster Mathis)
and strong heavyweights (Bonavena), Frazier was extended and
was in tough fights.

Vitali hits much harder than Mathis, is taller and uses his height to
the maximum advantage. If Vitali were to start landing his right
hand often, he could possibly upset Frazier.


Grebfan9
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]