Yet another question to those who were around during FOTC '71...

[ChrisPontius]

In a recent British documentary on the Frazier-Ali rivalry, they stated that going into their first fight, most of conservative America was behind Frazier, while most liberal white people were rooting for Ali. Now i don't want to start a political debate, but i was wondering what your experience with this was and in how far this correlation was true?

[mr. magoo]

Truthfully, I wasn't around Chris,

But everything that I've ever heard about that fight, both from documentaries or people who lived during the times, said that Frazier was generally considered as the conservative" white man's " champion, while Ali was basically the favorite of the left wing liberals.

[Chinxkid]

I was a kid, but I was around. My father took me to watch that fight on close circuit TV in an outdoor stadium. It was so cold that night and the reception was so fuzzy, it was hard to make anything out, between the waving picture and the shuffling of my feet...

I do remember what these guys were each supposed to represent, though even at the time I knew it was more what they had been designated to represent, by us. Ali obviously was outspoken, was against the war, was active in the civil rights struggle, Frazier never said much of anything on either count, but was grouped with the establishment by way of his silence and inaction nevertheless, and that seemed ok by him, at least with regards to the escalating gate.

But truth is, Americans were much more active themselves in those days than they are now, which is hard to explain except by the volunteer draft we got a couple years after FOTC. At the height of that time, celebrities routinely came on talk shows and took up sides, went on record as either a proponent of the old or the new or way of thinking, though they almost had no choice. This country was so clearly, adamantly split, if they didn't they'd be assigned to one side or another by outward appearances without having anything to say about it; just by assumption, and that old street philosophy that says, 'if you ain't with us, then you must be against us they'd be considered guilty or not, depending on perspective.

Frazier was a favorite of the older generation if only out of default. I don't remember anyone really knowing how he felt, or even if he felt strongly at the time. You'd have to guess he'd have no argument with Ali on the racial thing, Vietnam was a little trickier for everybody, but nobody of the old guard, except for guys who knew the game, (I knew a few who were already Ali converts by that time, sold on his ring performances, not as offended by that wide open mouth of his as the general public who couldn't see beyond it), wanted Ali to win that fight. Frazier's victory was a victory for them, at least that was how I saw it as an impressionable kid watching the world change before my eyes. But even at that age I knew it was just a matter of time, it wouldn't be long before people would wise up and learn something that real tough guys always knew, and that's that a bully is really a coward, out to prove something to himself by picking his shots and getting a win over the neighborhood weakling. I'm glad we've all learned that lesson well by now: that lesson that says, you don't give somebody a beating unless you have to, you don't beat the shit outta somebody just to make your bones, that the toughest guy in the bar is not the loudmouth drawing of the attention, but the quiet guy sitting down at the end of the bar minding his own business, and you don't level a country under false pretenses, kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people in the process, including your own.

[Stonehands89]

In a recent British documentary on the Frazier-Ali rivalry, they stated that going into their first fight, most of conservative America was behind Frazier, while most liberal white people were rooting for Ali. Now i don't want to start a political debate, but i was wondering what your experience with this was and in how far this correlation was true?
Much of that was at Ali's instigation. He would repeatedely call Joe Frazier an "Uncle Tom" (which is quite derogatory to call a black man even now) and the establishment's champion and such. Marvis would get beat up every day in school because he was "the son of Tom"... Ali had embraced his role as rebel and a wet-dream of the flower children and Anti-War protesters. Joe was actually far more "authentic" than Ali when it came to living the black struggle. He was the son of impoverished sharecroppers and was reared in Beauford, South Carolina where it was BAD for black men. When he was a kid in NY, he stole cars to make ends meet.

Ali's upbringing was comparatively easy and sheltered.

Ali painted himself as an authentic black man fighting the white racist imperialist powers and Joe was about as blue-collar as you get. Joe didn't know what hit him when Ali declared that Joe was "working for the enemy". He was not eloquent and surely not politically astute. He thought that Ali's calling him an "uncle tom" was the same thing as Ali calling him a "peeping tom"...

Just another example of the wrong that Ali brought to Frazier, who was a simple, but altogether noble man.

[young griffo]

Much of that was at Ali's instigation. He would repeatedely call Joe Frazier an "Uncle Tom" (which is quite derogatory to call a black man even now) and the establishment's champion and such. Marvis would get beat up every day in school because he was "the son of Tom"... Ali had embraced his role as rebel and a wet-dream of the flower children and Anti-War protesters. Joe was actually far more "authentic" than Ali when it came to living the black struggle. He was the son of impoverished sharecroppers and was reared in Beauford, South Carolina where it was BAD for black men. When he was a kid in NY, he stole cars to make ends meet.

Ali's upbringing was comparatively easy and sheltered.

Ali painted himself as an authentic black man fighting the white racist imperialist powers and Joe was about as blue-collar as you get. Joe didn't know what hit him when Ali declared that Joe was "working for the enemy". He was not eloquent and surely not politically astute. He thought that Ali's calling him an "uncle tom" was the same thing as Ali calling him a "peeping tom"...

Just another example of the wrong that Ali brought to Frazier, who was a simple, but altogether noble man.
I love Ali but his treatment of Frazier was disgraceful I thought.Joe was a decent man who didn't deserve that garbage.

What's worse is that a lot of left-wingers and celebrities seemed to believe Ali's bullshit.

When Joe was in Melbourne to fight Jimmy Ellis he went and caught a show by Ike and Tina Turner who were touring Australia at the time.After the concert Joe was taken backstage to meet Ike and Tina.When told that Joe Frazier was outside to see them Tina snorted
"I don't wanna see that chump,Ali's my man"
This was all said in earshot of Joe who simply shook his head and walked away.

This speaks volumes about the mans dignity but also says a lot about the mind set of the left-wing and celebrity sets of the time.

[Unforgiven]

The most ridiculous thing is that apart from his opposition to war and a few random pro-black liberation quotes, Ali's main opinions on politics and society were far removed from anything LIBERAL or LEFT-WING.

This guy was so opposed to inter-racial marriage he compared whites and blacks getting together to different species mating. He even joked about how his opinions were in line with the Ku Klux Klan's opinions.

This guy turned his back on Malcolm X when Malcolm branched out from Elijah Muhammad's sect and started calling for unity with non-black radicals and political militantcy. Malcolm X was a radical and a militant, an alternative leader for blacks in the struggle for equality. The NOI was a closed sect, and when push came to shove they were conservatives rather than radicals.

Elijah Muhammad was a nut-job "religious cult leader", who peddled mostly racist and otherwise bizarre mythology and labelled it "ISLAM" to the ignorant followers. The NOI doctrines of self-help and self-respect are drowned out in Elijah Muhammad's overall vision by the most repulsive and stupid teachings. This is a guy who invited the self-styled Fuhrer of the American Nazi party to talk to his "muslim" followers. This was the man Muhammad Ali followed and parrotted - not Malcolm, not MLK, not Huey Newton and the Black Panthers (all of whom had coherent political standpoints on the broad "left").
But somehow Muhammad Ali got put forward as a champion of the left or the liberals ??

Truth is, politically Ali was a moron.

[Ezzard]

Ali was articulate and quick witted but he wasn't a heavyweight intellectually. He was used by The Nation.

Elijah had banged up more secretaries than a middle-aged politician and had them all sent away to have the babies in secret. They were then kep out of The Nation. This is why Malcolm X left in the end. He knew Elijah was croooked.

Ali himself had an Irish grand parent. Look at him now in those docs, he looks like a white man with an afro.

BUT most of the lines Ali used were fed to him by The Nation.

[Bokaj]

Yeah, much of what Ali was saying at the time was just unbelieavable. And the fact that he turned his back on Malcolm X and wasn't affected by his stance even after his murder...

Ali's affiliation with the Nation and E. Muhammed is an embaressement in every way. There's just no way getting past that.

And his treatment of Frazier... Of course, to some extent it was to sell tickets and at the same time mess with Joe's mind, but it was more than that. It seemed in a way like he blamed Joe for his exile, which of course was all wrong. But this was one time when his pre-fight antics blew up in his face - BIG TIME.

[mcvey]

In a recent British documentary on the Frazier-Ali rivalry, they stated that going into their first fight, most of conservative America was behind Frazier, while most liberal white people were rooting for Ali. Now i don't want to start a political debate, but i was wondering what your experience with this was and in how far this correlation was true?
"We are not with White power ,or Black power, we are with Green power".Yank Durham, Frazier's manager.

[JohnThomas1]

"We are not with White power ,or Black power, we are with Green power".Yank Durham, Frazier's manager.

Jeez, Joe smoked weed?

:D

[mcvey]

Jeez, Joe smoked weed?

:D
I think Durham was referring to those pieces of paper with George Washington's face on it.

[ChrisPontius]

Ali was articulate and quick witted but he wasn't a heavyweight intellectually. He was used by The Nation.


Great post and very true.

The fact that Ali had tons of charisma, humor and charm made a lot of people believe things he said that were ridiculous, and he was repetitive with several statements, further showing that it was NOI-fed stuff.


Frazier was (besides heavyweight champ), a simple man who lived the hard life, but enjoyed things like sport and singing. I don't think he knew what was happening to him with all the political bullshit Ali all of a sudden was throwing at him, and why people hated him: he'd done nothing wrong? He was never particularly outspoken on politics and i like that in an athlete. They're fighters, not thinkers. And it's such a disappointment when your favorite fighter takes a political stance that you completely disagree with.

I very much liked this documentary, because it shows the way it actually went, instead of Ali just joking around and hyping the fight with Frazier being a dumb gorilla. Just because Frazier isn't as articulate, doesn't mean he's stupid.

[mcvey]

Great post and very true.

The fact that Ali had tons of charisma, humor and charm made a lot of people believe things he said that were ridiculous, and he was repetitive with several statements, further showing that it was NOI-fed stuff.


Frazier was (besides heavyweight champ), a simple man who lived the hard life, but enjoyed things like sport and singing. I don't think he knew what was happening to him with all the political bullshit Ali all of a sudden was throwing at him, and why people hated him: he'd done nothing wrong? He was never particularly outspoken on politics and i like that in an athlete. They're fighters, not thinkers. And it's such a disappointment when your favorite fighter takes a political stance that you completely disagree with.

I very much liked this documentary, because it shows the way it actually went, instead of Ali just joking around and hyping the fight with Frazier being a dumb gorilla. Just because Frazier isn't as articulate, doesn't mean he's stupid.
I think Frazier was badly served by Ali ,a man he had befriended and lent money to ,also trying to get his licence reinstated,he felt betrayed by Ali's insults and his kids got stick at school .Ali regrets his words now but the hurt is deep in Frazier ,a very decent guy, he deserved better from Ali and the media.The documentary was pretty much on the money I would say.

[Unforgiven]

I think Frazier hit the nail on the head when he surmised that Ali had a problem with him because he was AFRAID of Frazier.
He was afraid that Frazier was a good enough fighter to (1) perhaps beat him, and (2) steal the spotlight with his exciting style.

I cant see why else Ali would continuing insult Frazier with such personal attacks.
Floyd Patterson provoked Ali, but Ali didn't continue the baiting of Patterson past their first fight.
Bonavena provoked Ali by questioning his courage because of draft dodging.
Ken Norton was actually IN the US military, Ali could have exploited that. Ali fought numerous white men he could have portrayed as rednecks and racists, but he didn't.

His problem with Frazier was fear and jealousy I guess.

[ChrisPontius]

I think Frazier was badly served by Ali ,a man he had befriended and lent money to ,also trying to get his licence reinstated,he felt betrayed by Ali's insults and his kids got stick at school .Ali regrets his words now but the hurt is deep in Frazier ,a very decent guy, he deserved better from Ali and the media.The documentary was pretty much on the money I would say.

Politics aside, who did you like better at the time, and did you know that much what Ali said was unfair back then?

[TBooze]

Politics aside, who did you like better at the time, and did you know that much what Ali said was unfair back then?

Frazier might not like it, but compared to what Ali stood and fought for; Frazier was an Uncle Tom to Ali's crowd.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I think Durham was referring to those pieces of paper with George Washington's face on it.


Never. :razz:

[Minotauro]

The most ridiculous thing is that apart from his opposition to war and a few random pro-black liberation quotes, Ali's main opinions on politics and society were far removed from anything LIBERAL or LEFT-WING.

This guy was so opposed to inter-racial marriage he compared whites and blacks getting together to different species mating. He even joked about how his opinions were in line with the Ku Klux Klan's opinions.

This guy turned his back on Malcolm X when Malcolm branched out from Elijah Muhammad's sect and started calling for unity with non-black radicals and political militantcy. Malcolm X was a radical and a militant, an alternative leader for blacks in the struggle for equality. The NOI was a closed sect, and when push came to shove they were conservatives rather than radicals.

Elijah Muhammad was a nut-job "religious cult leader", who peddled mostly racist and otherwise bizarre mythology and labelled it "ISLAM" to the ignorant followers. The NOI doctrines of self-help and self-respect are drowned out in Elijah Muhammad's overall vision by the most repulsive and stupid teachings. This is a guy who invited the self-styled Fuhrer of the American Nazi party to talk to his "muslim" followers. This was the man Muhammad Ali followed and parrotted - not Malcolm, not MLK, not Huey Newton and the Black Panthers (all of whom had coherent political standpoints on the broad "left").
But somehow Muhammad Ali got put forward as a champion of the left or the liberals ??

Truth is, politically Ali was a moron.

great post

[Russell]

Ali seemed to be a pretty fucking dumb guy at times, honestly. Idiot savant?

Mike Tyson flocked to whoever he was closest to as well, imitating them down to their smallest nuances.

[SteveO]

Ali seemed to be a pretty fucking dumb guy at times, honestly. Idiot savant?

Mike Tyson flocked to whoever he was closest to as well, imitating them down to their smallest nuances.

I think Ali was tested as having a low IQ.

Of course, IQ is all in what you do with it, but he could be a soft touch in some respects. Maybe he was easily manipulated in others.

[Schmapps]

Personally I can't make up my mind. Sometimes I think Ali is a simpleton, an intellectual midget. But, how could someone be so charismatic, so funny and quick witted, without possessing intelligence?? It just doesnt add up lol. I guess he may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but at the same time he's a complex, layered and interesting individual. Someone else said "Idiot-Savant", I think thats the perfect term. Sometimes I watch him say things, and think to myself, wow that was surprisingly insightful.

[Russell]

I think Ali was tested as having a low IQ.

Of course, IQ is all in what you do with it, but he could be a soft touch in some respects. Maybe he was easily manipulated in others.

"I'm the greatest, not the smartest!"

:lol:

[Arka]

Hehe.Look what I've found ! The documentary is in 6 parts....

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[mattdonnellon]

Ali was articulate and quick witted but he wasn't a heavyweight intellectually. He was used by The Nation.

Elijah had banged up more secretaries than a middle-aged politician and had them all sent away to have the babies in secret. They were then kep out of The Nation. This is why Malcolm X left in the end. He knew Elijah was croooked.

Ali himself had an Irish grand parent. Look at him now in those docs, he looks like a white man with an afro.

BUT most of the lines Ali used were fed to him by The Nation.

For the record Ali's Irish connection was a GREAT grand father by the name of O'grady.

[Longhhorn71]

I was in college and 23 years old at the time.

I drove from Austin to San Antonio to see the closed circuit fight.

Went down as an Ali fan, and came back with a lot more respect for Joe Frazier than I had previously.

As in High School, the little guy in class had knocked Mr. Cool on his butt.

As Frazier said, that 15th round left hook he landed, had started from way back in the country where Joe had grown up.

[ChrisPontius]

I was in college and 23 years old at the time.

I drove from Austin to San Antonio to see the closed circuit fight.

Went down as an Ali fan, and came back with a lot more respect for Joe Frazier than I had previously.

As in High School, the little guy in class had knocked Mr. Cool on his butt.

As Frazier said, that 15th round left hook he landed, had started from way back in the country where Joe had grown up.

The drive back home must have been a long hour. :!:

[Longhhorn71]

The drive back home must have been a long hour. :!:

Yep.....still remember that drive to this day.

Was forced to drop by a College Tavern for a few cool ones just before closing time.

[ChrisPontius]

Yep.....still remember that drive to this day.

Was forced to drop by a College Tavern for a few cool ones just before closing time.

Was the fight still being discussed there? And were there Ali fans claiming he'd won? It sounds like you thought he lost pretty decisively..

[Longhhorn71]

Was the fight still being discussed there? And were there Ali fans claiming he'd won? It sounds like you thought he lost pretty decisively..

Most people as they left the arena in SA grudgingly thought Frazier had won the fight...don't remember much booing the decsion.


I couldn't come up with a rationale that Ali had won.....Frazier made Ali fight his fight, plus he hurt him bad in the 11th, and knocked him down in the 15th.

It wasn't until several weeks later that Ali started making noise that Ali had won the fight due to his pitter-pat punches on the ropes that Frazier had put him there and would not let him off.

On that night, Frazier was the victor.