Opinion: Greatest Head to Head Heavyweight ATG. [Archive]

MagnificentMatt

08-07-2007, 10:24 PM

Cliche perhaps, but Ali. Why? Because I'd pick him peak for peak over every heavyweight who ever lived.

Of course, but there are some people who would just give Ali hell because of style matchups, with the ALi we have to work with, i would put Tyson over him..and people like Lennox Lewis or the Klits arent comparalbe to many older Heavys because you simply just dont know how they would deal with a 6'6-6'7 foot tall fighter..

(The "Ali we have to work with" means i think his prime would have been the 3 years he was in jail, so we never saw a real prime Ali.)

Jbuz

08-07-2007, 10:28 PM

Of course, but there are some people who would just give Ali hell because of style matchups, with the ALi we have to work with, i would put Tyson over him..and people like Lennox Lewis or the Klits arent comparalbe to many older Heavys because you simply just dont know how they would deal with a 6'6-6'7 foot tall fighter..

(The "Ali we have to work with" means i think his prime would have been the 3 years he was in jail, so we never saw a real prime Ali.)

Well there are fighters who would give every fighter hell because of style matchups. A prime Tyson would give Lennox hell, a prime Holmes would give Lennox hell. Ali did fight a 6'6 - 6'7 fighter by the way, in the form of Ernie Terrell. Who was regarded as an excellent fighter at the time, and Ali didn't lose a round. Of course, he fought differently to Lennox/Klits, however the size factor was conquered very convincingly.

MagnificentMatt

08-07-2007, 10:33 PM

Well there are fighters who would give every fighter hell because of style matchups. A prime Tyson would give Lennox hell, a prime Holmes would give Lennox hell. Ali did fight a 6'6 - 6'7 fighter by the way, in the form of Ernie Terrell. Who was regarded as an excellent fighter at the time, and Ali didn't lose a round. Of course, he fought differently to Lennox/Klits, however the size factor was conquered very convincingly.

Oh, thanks for informing me of that haha.. I agree with you on both Lennox match ups...But for the most part Lennox could chop through some people..

So could many, i just think Lennox would get thrugh more thats all, hell Tyson is prolly my favorite Heavyweight ever, and yes i think a peak Tyson(the most overrated, and underrated fighter ever) could go through people, but lets not start with Tyson cause that will change this thread completely.

ripcity

08-07-2007, 10:39 PM

I'd pick Lenox Lewis to win any head to head prime heaveyweight match up. Tyson is #2 and Ali is #3.

MagnificentMatt

08-07-2007, 10:42 PM

I'd pick Lenox Lewis to win any head to head prime heaveyweight match up. Tyson is #2 and Ali is #3.

Theres my Boy :-D...Lennox Lewis is just awesome head to head, and if he did lose, he would probably win in a rematch..Like i said, hes not a personal favorite, i just think hes awesome head to head..

Id probably put Ali above Tyson, and Joe Louis would be further back on my list than most others probably...He was great, and ruled for a LONG ASS TIME and was awesome for his times standards..But i just think with all the improvements to the actual science of the sports with footwork and all he wouldnt be able to keep up with a few of the newer ones, but id still have him like...top 7 or 8 for head to head..somthing like that.

Amsterdam

08-07-2007, 10:55 PM

Lennox had the skills to the head to head best, but not the jaw. Ferocious overwhelming fighters like Tyson destroy him peak/peak because of that flaw.

Head/head though? I think I'll pick a cliche and go with Tyson, it's ridiculous how he's underrated and how common opinion states that if you didn't fold than you win, he was very dynamic at his best and could overwhelm just about any HW in history.

If Holmes didn't last 4, neither would Lewis considering the jaw. I'd also take Tyson to beat a prime Evander by a close but clear UD just on outworking him.

OBCboxer

08-07-2007, 10:57 PM

I pick prime Tyson head to head over anybody just because of his great balance of speed and power.

King Dan

08-07-2007, 10:58 PM

Ali

JMotrain

08-07-2007, 10:59 PM

Muhammed Ali of course.

kg0208

08-07-2007, 11:00 PM

Lewis. And I don't buy the glass jaw arguments. He was hit with monster shots without going down. His problem is getting lazy.

Amsterdam

08-07-2007, 11:02 PM

Lewis. And I don't buy the glass jaw arguments. He was hit with monster shots without going down. His problem is getting lazy.

Lazyness isn't enough to reduce punch resistance enough to get starched by guys whom are not even on the level of top 10 ATG punchers. And on that note, how does he beat these great punchers, whom also have the proper skill to deliver it right on his jaw.

His jaw is far from china, but it sure is crackable and crackable by a murderous hitter, a prime Mike Tyson driving Lennox backwards would certainly do the trick.

BobDigi5060

08-07-2007, 11:05 PM

As much as I love to say Iron Mike I can't. The more I think of Tyson as a whole I begin to believe that he cannot get back into the fight once he is out. Mike never came back from the dead in fights. Once you had a mental edge it was over. In the blink of an eye.

I have no other but I'll say Ali based on his boxing ability.

kg0208

08-07-2007, 11:16 PM

Lazyness isn't enough to reduce punch resistance enough to get starched by guys whom are not even on the level of top 10 ATG punchers. And on that note, how does he beat these great punchers, whom also have the proper skill to deliver it right on his jaw.

His jaw is far from china, but it sure is crackable and crackable by a murderous hitter, a prime Mike Tyson driving Lennox backwards would certainly do the trick.

If his chin is china, how did he survive hard shots from harder punchers than Rahman and McCall?

I can answer your question easily. Any fighter can be KO'd at HW if they don't seem the punch coming. When Lewis is lazy, he doesn't train as hard and his reflexes, movement, coordination and everything else suffers. Then he gets caught.

kg0208

08-07-2007, 11:22 PM

Amsterdam

08-07-2007, 11:36 PM

If his chin is china, how did he survive hard shots from harder punchers than Rahman and McCall?

I can answer your question easily. Any fighter can be KO'd at HW if they don't seem the punch coming. When Lewis is lazy, he doesn't train as hard and his reflexes, movement, coordination and everything else suffers. Then he gets caught.

Maybe read my post again, I clearly stated "his chin is far from china, but sure is crackable". And I meant it in crackable ways where a truly hard chinned fighter is not, and this is why the ATG punchers will beat him.

And you backed up my statement, his movement, reflexes and coordination all served his defence, which stopped him from getting laid out by better punchers than Rahman and McCall... he never faced a puncher in the level of a peak Tyson however, Tua has the power but lacks the ability and skill to set the shots up in a way that Tyson would reach out and clip Lewis.

Lewis being the number 1 head to head is truly an absurd thought.

Liston is even a superior choice, or another cliche in Ali, or even a peak Tyson for that matter.

Amsterdam

08-07-2007, 11:39 PM

I don't think Prime Tyson drives Lennox Back. I think Prime Tyson tries to for a few rounds, then when Lewis gets his measure, wears him down and stops him.

Prime Holyfield has a better shot at beating Lewis than Tyson.

Then how did Tua drive Lewis back at times in their fight? He's maybe a 3rd of a prime Tyson's skill and a 4th of his speed and tenacity.

Tyson drove Holmes back and stopped him in 4, a past prime Holmes but still a very solid Holmes, he could easily do the same to Lennox Lewis.

Tyson/Lewis is easy pickings for Tyson, I don't understand how you think Lewis will wear him down and stop him, let alone make it out of the first 5 rounds with a guy who has a complete stylistic advantage over Lennox.

BobDigi5060

08-07-2007, 11:41 PM

Maybe read my post again, I clearly stated "his chin is far from china, but sure is crackable". And I meant it in crackable ways where a truly hard chinned fighter is not, and this is why the ATG punchers will beat him.

Agreed. Every boxer's chin is crackable, you gotta be crazy to think the Lewis who was knocked into tomorrow by one shot in TKO losses isn't.

Amsterdam

08-07-2007, 11:45 PM

Agreed. Every boxer's chin is crackable, you gotta be crazy to think the Lewis who was knocked into tomorrow by one shot in TKO losses isn't.

Sure, most boxers chins are crackable in the standard way, but some weaker than others, thus the idea of rating and checking chins. Lewis' chin cannot compare to Tyson's and Holyfields, or Bowe's for that matter, all took bombs in ways that Lewis was able to avoid.

Lewis actually shows his superior skill in comparison to his contemporaries in becoming an ATG with a fairly weak chin, this is not a bash on him... the idea though is that the other top 10 ATG's at their peak have the ability to get the right shot on the button to end the fight, this would include a young, explosive Mike Tyson who had the murderous power to starch him flat.

Holmes was TKO'd against Tyson, Lewis would be KO'd, there is quite a difference between the two.

Zakman

08-08-2007, 12:00 AM

Agreed. Every boxer's chin is crackable, you gotta be crazy to think the Lewis who was knocked into tomorrow by one shot in TKO losses isn't.

Exactly. It is absurd to assert that Lewis, who was laid out by two second-rate fighters, wouldn't be vulnerable to having exactly the same thing happen against some of the ATG punchers in the division's history.

kg0208

08-08-2007, 02:10 AM

Maybe read my post again, I clearly stated "his chin is far from china, but sure is crackable". And I meant it in crackable ways where a truly hard chinned fighter is not, and this is why the ATG punchers will beat him.

And you backed up my statement, his movement, reflexes and coordination all served his defence, which stopped him from getting laid out by better punchers than Rahman and McCall... he never faced a puncher in the level of a peak Tyson however, Tua has the power but lacks the ability and skill to set the shots up in a way that Tyson would reach out and clip Lewis.

Lewis being the number 1 head to head is truly an absurd thought.

Liston is even a superior choice, or another cliche in Ali, or even a peak Tyson for that matter.

It's absurd for you to write off one of the great champions of all time simply because you feel that his chin won't hold up. I happen to feel that it will.

And I didn't back up your statement. I only backed up your statement if I agree with you on the skill level of the fighters. Tyson certainly lacked the skill to reach out and stop Douglas. Is it absurd to think that Lewis couldn't have duplicated Douglas' feat? No...its not.

I don't particularly care what other choices people make. No one asked me to give them someone else's choice.

And I don't need to re-read your post. Nearly every great fighter in histories chin is crackable now isn't it? Tyson's sure was. So was Listons apparently.

kg0208

08-08-2007, 02:12 AM

Sure, most boxers chins are crackable in the standard way, but some weaker than others, thus the idea of rating and checking chins. Lewis' chin cannot compare to Tyson's and Holyfields, or Bowe's for that matter, all took bombs in ways that Lewis was able to avoid.

Lewis actually shows his superior skill in comparison to his contemporaries in becoming an ATG with a fairly weak chin, this is not a bash on him... the idea though is that the other top 10 ATG's at their peak have the ability to get the right shot on the button to end the fight, this would include a young, explosive Mike Tyson who had the murderous power to starch him flat.

Holmes was TKO'd against Tyson, Lewis would be KO'd, there is quite a difference between the two.

The idea is that Lewis has enough skill and size to get to someone like Tyson before Tyson gets to him.

Klitscho certainly landed bombs on his chin. And Tua made Lewis go backwards because Lewis was moving away. Tua was ALOT bigger and stronger than Tyson. Tyson was 215....not 240.

It's utterly amazing how you view your opinion as fact. It's ridiculous that you play off speculation in such a manner.

PATSYS

08-08-2007, 05:14 AM

My pick...Lennox Lewis, im sure you have heard it before but i just see him dominating in head to head, he was so good at searching and destroying. Now if we are doing favorites, id go with either Iron Mike, Joe Frazier, Wlad, or Holyfield....But im just talking who i think does best in most head to head matchups with other ATGs.

I pick Lewis too. Followed by Ali.

Sister Sledge

08-08-2007, 05:26 AM

1. Holmes-Smartest fighter with the best Jab
2. Ali-Just because
3. Foreman-Perfect size. Would have KO'd Tyson
4 Tyson-Most intimidating
5 Joe Louis-Fantastic Timing

Sister Sledge

08-08-2007, 06:22 AM

Because in most of Foremans fights, he wasn't a wild swinger. Foreman was actually a counterpuncher who would wait for his opponents to attack and catch them coming in. His timing was excellent. Tysons biggest strength was his intimidation factor. In the 80's and early 90's, Tysons opponents were already beaten before they entered the ring because they were scared. Foreman won't be scared. Foreman also has the strength to tie Tyson up and move him around the ring. A guy like Foreman can break Tysons spirit, as well as his jaw, and I think foreman would do that to Tyson.

HopkinsFan

08-08-2007, 06:36 AM

1. Ali
2. Tyson
3. Louis
4. Lewis
5. Foreman

number 3 and 4 i kept going back and forth, but came to the conclusion that Louis' unbelievable ability to finish a fighter and also make a comeback just barely makes me take him over Lewis.

Bummy Davis

08-08-2007, 06:37 AM

Joseph Louis would beat them all

Scar

08-08-2007, 07:07 AM

Ali is my pick.

HopkinsFan

08-08-2007, 07:18 AM

No, I've got the fight, it was not computer generated graphics. They were both in there fighting. Ali was suspended sure, but was in his prime. 46 year old Marciano knocked him out, what would he have done to him if Rock was in his prime?

and yes, buddy baer, two-tonne tony galento, braddock and max schmeling were bums. rocky was the only white boy who knocked louis down who wasn't a bum.

There is no way in hell even a prime Marciano knocks out Ali..

Jens S

08-08-2007, 07:42 AM

Rumble: [Only registered and activated users can see links]

Is this the "fight" you are talking about? It is "computerized", or rather clips put together in a smart fashion. Ali and Marciano never fought each other.

Jens

K0NPHL1C7

08-08-2007, 07:44 AM

you're not making any sense saying this, as a 46 year Marciano knocked out a Prime Ali

Guy, Marciano was dead at 46.

Jens S

08-08-2007, 07:58 AM

Rumble, why do you think everybody says it didn't happen?
Why does it say "Computer bout" on the cover?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
You can see the fight is mentioned. It was a "computer fight":
In July of 1969, shortly before his death, Marciano participated in the filming of the fantasy, The Superfight: Marciano vs. Ali ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). The two boxers were filmed sparring, then the film was edited to match a computer simulation of a hypothetical fight between them, each in their prime. The bout was aired on Tuesday, January 20 ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), 1970 ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Marciano won by KO in 13.

Jens

2smart4u

08-08-2007, 08:02 AM

Well there are fighters who would give every fighter hell because of style matchups. A prime Tyson would give Lennox hell, a prime Holmes would give Lennox hell. Ali did fight a 6'6 - 6'7 fighter by the way, in the form of Ernie Terrell. Who was regarded as an excellent fighter at the time, and Ali didn't lose a round. Of course, he fought differently to Lennox/Klits, however the size factor was conquered very convincingly.:patsch Comparing TERREL to the mentioned names is like comparing BIRD to ALI ! VLAD conquered 62 something boxers but they were nowhere as skilled as 67 ALI ! And TERRELL wasnt close to the KLITS or LL in skill or size ! ( he was as tall but nowhere near as large ! just like BOB FOSTER was as tall as ALI but nowhere as large !:deal

barneyrub

08-08-2007, 08:03 AM

Even Holyfields trainer Don Turner says Lennox Lewis would beat any champion in history on a given night!

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Jens S

08-08-2007, 08:04 AM

Ali, but Superman fought without his superpowers. Ali went on to defeat an alien monster in a fight and save the Earth.

Jens

cpnasty

08-08-2007, 08:15 AM

Holmes

cpnasty

08-08-2007, 08:15 AM

I have Ali as 2nd

2smart4u

08-08-2007, 08:41 AM

Holmes:patsch the same LARRY who barly beat NORTON and WILLIAMS and SPOON ? ( PS 2 of them had less then 20 fights and the other was shot ) LARRY struggled with anyone with any talent at all and you think he is greatest head to head ?:think

HopkinsFan

08-08-2007, 08:49 AM

you're not making any sense saying this, as a 46 year Marciano knocked out a Prime Ali

Your in denial or something, they never fought. :patsch

jyuza

08-08-2007, 08:58 AM

I would say Ali.

Then Liston.

Bummy Davis

08-08-2007, 01:06 PM

Louis had the style to KO Ali, I like him big over ALi, Marciano would have given Ali trouble, Dempsey and Marciano would have caused Louis trouble but he would have handled Ali

Amsterdam

08-08-2007, 02:14 PM

It's absurd for you to write off one of the great champions of all time simply because you feel that his chin won't hold up. I happen to feel that it will.

And I didn't back up your statement. I only backed up your statement if I agree with you on the skill level of the fighters. Tyson certainly lacked the skill to reach out and stop Douglas. Is it absurd to think that Lewis couldn't have duplicated Douglas' feat? No...its not.

I don't particularly care what other choices people make. No one asked me to give them someone else's choice.

And I don't need to re-read your post. Nearly every great fighter in histories chin is crackable now isn't it? Tyson's sure was. So was Listons apparently.

Neither was ever put unconscious by a single punch however at their best, there is a difference between being stopped and being laid out.

kg0208

08-08-2007, 02:17 PM

Neither was ever put unconscious by a single punch however at their best, there is a difference between being stopped and being laid out.

And that's relative to their chin.

And Liston was not past it when Ali dropped him with one punch. And yes I know the controversy.

Lewis doesn't have to have a great chin to beat ATG, just like they don't have to have Lewis' size or power to beat him.

Slothrop

08-08-2007, 02:24 PM

Amsterdam

08-08-2007, 02:26 PM

And that's relative to their chin.

And Liston was not past it when Ali dropped him with one punch. And yes I know the controversy.

Lewis doesn't have to have a great chin to beat ATG, just like they don't have to have Lewis' size or power to beat him.

Did I deny Lewis was an ATG, a great fighter?

I merely stated that Lewis' main trouble is going to be his ability to take the shot from the murderous punching ATG's whom are going to be up there with his skill level in their respective styles and can therefore deliver the KO shots that would spark him, but would not spark some harder chinned examples.

Ali dropped him, but Liston chose to stay down, that's the difference. Lewis and Douglas KOed Tyson, but after a very lengthy beating, thus the difference.

And by the way, a peak Tyson did not show up in the Douglas fight, he was all off. That Tyson was easily comparable to the Lewis that showed up vs. McCall and Rahman, lazy and unfocused for certain.

I don't understand why you want to put forth that if Douglas can control Tyson, then Lewis can, but then completely deny my notion that if Rahman can KO Lewis in 5, then Tyson can do it easier...

kg0208

08-08-2007, 02:29 PM

Did I deny Lewis was an ATG, a great fighter?

I merely stated that Lewis' main trouble is going to be his ability to take the shot from the murderous punching ATG's whom are going to be up there with his skill level in their respective styles and can therefore deliver the KO shots that would spark him, but would not spark some harder chinned examples.

Ali dropped him, but Liston chose to stay down, that's the difference. Lewis and Douglas KOed Tyson, but after a very lengthy beating, thus the difference.

And by the way, a peak Tyson did not show up in the Douglas fight, he was all off. That Tyson was easily comparable to the Lewis that showed up vs. McCall and Rahman, lazy and unfocused for certain.
I never said you didn't call Lewis an ATG. Read it again....

And while that may not have been the best version of Tyson, we also know that Tyson didn't exacly fight anyone in his prime that had the ability and power of a Lewis. Or the ability of any other high level fighter.

We don't know what Liston chose to do. That's speculation. I know he DID stay down.

And I haven't denied you anything. Remember, you were the one who said what I said was absurd. Not vice versa. Tyson could certainly stop Lewis. A guy like Tyson could stop anyone almost. But he could also get his ass handed to him by someone who was simply superior.

Amsterdam

08-08-2007, 02:36 PM

I never said you didn't call Lewis an ATG. Read it again....

And while that may not have been the best version of Tyson, we also know that Tyson didn't exacly fight anyone in his prime that had the ability and power of a Lewis. Or the ability of any other high level fighter.

His KO win over an ATG, past his best but still very solid in Holmes is pretty telling. I personally feel that Lewis would be easy work for the earlier, explosive Tyson and it's really easy to invision. It's easier to invision than Lewis actually lasting through the first 5 rounds of the technical swarming of Tyson.

We don't know what Liston chose to do. That's speculation. I know he DID stay down.

We can at least agree that it's much less official than Lewis getting sparked flat by Rahman, which there is no way around that one.

And I haven't denied you anything. Remember, you were the one who said what I said was absurd. Not vice versa. Tyson could certainly stop Lewis. A guy like Tyson could stop anyone almost. But he could also get his ass handed to him by someone who was simply superior.

I didn't say you were absurd, I said the notion that Lewis was the best head to head was absurd and believe me, it's becoming a common accepted factor and I don't like it!:bart

Tyson got his ass handed to him when he was well out of his best though, it'd have been difficult to do so on a peak Tyson under Rooney's guide.

Tyson's legacy has been tainted and that's fine, there are good reasons why, but the bad part is that it's taken away from what he actually was at his peak, even within intellectual circles when it comes to boxing.

kg0208

08-08-2007, 02:51 PM

His KO win over an ATG, past his best but still very solid in Holmes is pretty telling. I personally feel that Lewis would be easy work for the earlier, explosive Tyson and it's really easy to invision. It's easier to invision than Lewis actually lasting through the first 5 rounds of the technical swarming of Tyson.

We can at least agree that it's much less official than Lewis getting sparked flat by Rahman, which there is no way around that one.

I didn't say you were absurd, I said the notion that Lewis was the best head to head was absurd and believe me, it's becoming a common accepted factor and I don't like it!:bart

Tyson got his ass handed to him when he was well out of his best though, it'd have been difficult to do so on a peak Tyson under Rooney's guide.

Tyson's legacy has been tainted and that's fine, there are good reasons why, but the bad part is that it's taken away from what he actually was at his peak, even within intellectual circles when it comes to boxing.

I'm not taking away from Tyson. I am just regarding Lewis higher.

McGrain

08-08-2007, 02:54 PM

I guess i'm going to pick Ali. I been dithering about Louis lately but Ali. Ali would be the guy who would beat the most ATG fighters IMO.

McGrain

08-08-2007, 02:56 PM

Louis has teh style to beat ALI??? Thats shows your lack of knowledge because it is exactly the opposite. Its these kind of fighters that Ali will eat up and toy with.

I disagree.

Louis doesn't fight outside his circle of offense, which is tight. But Ali can't trade with this guy, he would get KO'd. Can he keep it up for 15? If he can he has a chance to outpoint Joe, but faster, lighter men tried it and failed.

I would pick Louis by a late stoppage in this one, pretty much as soon as Ali slows down.

Amsterdam

08-08-2007, 02:59 PM

I disagree.

Louis doesn't fight outside his circle of offense, which is tight. But Ali can't trade with this guy, he would get KO'd. Can he keep it up for 15? If he can he has a chance to outpoint Joe, but faster, lighter men tried it and failed.

I would pick Louis by a late stoppage in this one, pretty much as soon as Ali slows down.

I'd pick Lennox over Ali actually...

But I can agree with your sentiments on Louis.

McGrain

08-08-2007, 03:11 PM

I'd pick Lennox over Ali actually...

This is interesting stuff, briefly, how do you see it?

El Bombasto

08-08-2007, 03:13 PM

Amsterdam

08-08-2007, 03:19 PM

This is interesting stuff, briefly, how do you see it?

Simple, Ali lacks the power to stop a perfectly focused Lennox and the fact that Ali never has fought a boxer-puncher like Lennox who was dynamic with big power himself.

Lennox would easily land his best shots on Ali, who's defence was at times lacking.

I actually feel Ali gets stopped here. Just my opinion. If you think Louis can KO Ali, well a 250 pound Lennox Lewis could also.

McGrain

08-08-2007, 03:20 PM

Huh:patsch This is a very simple analysis,

Here's a longer one.

There's no doubt that Ali has the speed to keep out of Louis' way when he is very fresh. Looking at it from the point of view of Louis getting Ali early, it's near impossible, though because of Ali's power deficiency (relative) the opposite is also true.

What happens in the meantime?

Louis stalks Ali. How much scoring can Ali do with the jab and combos? I'm not convinced he will be that succsesful. Louis has a great - and far from arbitrary - shoulder roll/duck. He's used to dodging blows from a retreating opponent - in fact he's an expert. That Ali is an expert at throwing on the back foot is just one of the many and interesting intangibles in the fight, but all things being equal i'll take the guy on the front foot over the guy on the back foot, if they can both be considered experts.

Ali will win these early rounds, although Louis may pinch one or two on aggression.

Now, what else is happening here? Ali is moving and busy. Meanwhile Louis works the most economical footwork in heavyweight history bar none. He will take probably half of the steps that Ali takes. Around round 9 Ali WILL start to slow (almost unequaled in terms of stamina in the modern era, he IS a human machine. He is now dehydrated and tired).

How much has Ali taken out of Louis with the jab? That is all that matters now. You cannot make it through to points against a man like peak Louis if you're slowed...can Ali stop Louis in the next couple of rounds when the trading begins? Is he sharp enough to stay out of the way and counterpunch this great counter-counterpuncher?

My gut says no.

none of these type of fighters can handle Ali, Louis is great but hes too slow, look waht he did to Liston, who is technically superior to Louis and just as hard.

I don't consider the Liston fights above board, I don't consider Liston technically superior to Louis, though there is parity there.

Regardless, Louis can't be considered a "type of fighter". He is the best there ever was at doing what he did, bar none at any weight division. The ultimate stalker-puncher.

You maybe thinking of Ali post layoff.

Post layoff Ali loses to Louis early. He would be the wrong guy and no mistake.

McGrain

08-08-2007, 03:22 PM

Simple, Ali lacks the power to stop a perfectly focused Lennox and the fact that Ali never has fought a boxer-puncher like Lennox who was dynamic with big power himself.

Lennox would easily land his best shots on Ali, who's defence was at times lacking.

I actually feel Ali gets stopped here. Just my opinion. If you think Louis can KO Ali, well a 250 pound Lennox Lewis could also.

I think this one is a very, very interesting fight. I would probably lean towards Ali in a very close one.

McGrain

08-08-2007, 03:23 PM

Lennox is a pretty reasonable head-to-head choice, but there's always the possibility that he gets his chin checked.

In an imagined head to head tournament you've got to beleive he would get caught at some stage by a Liston or a Louis or Johansson, someone like that.

Amsterdam

08-08-2007, 03:27 PM

Ali doesnt get hit pre layoff. Only time he got hit was by the terrific Henry Cooper in 63. that was it!!!

For plodding heavys like Lennox, please.

As for Louis, that was an earlier era, much earlier than Ali.

When Ali burst into the scene, he was a freak, a guy a shade under 6'4, 200lbs who moves like a freakin welterweight. So you can just imagine.

Well, Zora Folley sure landed his share of lead right hands....:yep

JMotrain

08-08-2007, 07:44 PM

The same Lewis who got his lights put out by 2 journeymen, who struggled with Bruno and Mercer, and a past it Holyfield, is going to beat every HW out there?

Hmmm I don't think so.

Malph

08-08-2007, 08:13 PM

Then how did Tua drive Lewis back at times in their fight? He's maybe a 3rd of a prime Tyson's skill and a 4th of his speed and tenacity.

Tyson drove Holmes back and stopped him in 4, a past prime Holmes but still a very solid Holmes, he could easily do the same to Lennox Lewis.

Tyson/Lewis is easy pickings for Tyson, I don't understand how you think Lewis will wear him down and stop him, let alone make it out of the first 5 rounds with a guy who has a complete stylistic advantage over Lennox.

Amsterdam, with all due respect, I was at that fight (Lewis vs Tua). Lewis made Tua look like an oaf. Lewis completely outboxed Tua, making him miss and causing him to be constantly off balance. Lewis handled him easily. It was a boring fight to watch without much real action, but it was evident that Lewis was in a completely different league as far as boxing ability/ring movement went. I was pulling for Tua, but I saw nothing at that fight that made me think he even belonged in the same ring as Lewis.

Stewbear

08-08-2007, 08:15 PM

Amsterdam, with all due respect, I was at that fight (Lewis vs Tua). Lewis made Tua look like an oaf. Lewis completely outboxed Tua, making him miss and causing him to be constantly off balance. Lewis handled him easily. It was a boring fight to watch without much real action, but it was evident that Lewis was in a completely different league as far as boxing ability/ring movement went. I was pulling for Tua, but I saw nothing at that fight that made me think he even belonged in the same ring as Lewis.

lol people crazy trying to use the tua fight Lewis fought a complete shut out against one of the biggest punchers ever!
And though Lewis' reflexes had visibly slowed by this time he proved his chin by taking the best tua had to offer.

JMotrain

08-08-2007, 08:15 PM

Amsterdam, with all due respect, I was at that fight (Lewis vs Tua). Lewis made Tua look like an oaf. Lewis completely outboxed Tua, making him miss and causing him to be constantly off balance. Lewis handled him easily. It was a boring fight to watch without much real action, but it was evident that Lewis was in a completely different league as far as boxing ability/ring movement went. I was pulling for Tua, but I saw nothing at that fight that made me think he even belonged in the same ring as Lewis.

Tua weighed 475 pounds when he fought Lewis, of course Lewis dominated him with ease.

Bummy Davis

08-09-2007, 05:14 PM

Louis has teh style to beat ALI??? Thats shows your lack of knowledge because it is exactly the opposite. Its these kind of fighters that Ali will eat up and toy with.

Ali could never TOY with Joe Louis, the type of fighters Ali had trouble with were fighters with decent speed and power, Cooper Almost had Ali done(ripped Glove) Doug Jones (below decent power) Frazier (fast Hook and power) Norton ( decent speed and power) Jimmy Young (good speed, less than decent power) None of these men mentioned had the power and speed of combo Of Louis, Ali would be able to run and stick for a few rounds but Joe was patient, he would counter Ali with the hook and the power jab (louis had a great one) Ali had trouble with good hookers and Joe was one of the best, he had a long one a short one and a in - between one. Ali could not toy with Louis and the only thing he may eat is ring resin, Study your films kid and look at the kind of fighters Ali lost to, then put Louis in there place and then honestly tell me Ali would Toy with and eat up Joe Louis and lets see WHO suffers from a Lack of Knowledge

Alo2006

08-09-2007, 05:18 PM

Ali

MagnificentMatt

08-09-2007, 05:20 PM

Looks like i started a great post, havent payed attention to it since it got past 3
pages...haha

MagnificentMatt

08-09-2007, 05:20 PM

double.

Amsterdam

08-09-2007, 05:21 PM

Im talking about a significant punch

Folley won all of the early rounds, they were pretty significant punches. Ali had a great chin, great footwork and is elusive, but he is definitley hittable from a guy like Lewis at his peak.

Lewis would produce better punches that Folley and they'd have more leverage on them. I think he'd KO Ali personally.

Sakura

08-09-2007, 07:06 PM

Lewis took full bombs from Tua all fight long, it's safe to say given that and all the other shots he took without going down in his whole career, that he had a pretty damn good chin. He got caught twice against Rahman and McCall, both big punchers, and he got up after McCall anyway, the ref just decided to stop it. Against Rahman, he clearly was not in the best of shape and basically gave a big puncher a shot at his chin. He has taken other big shots when at his best and didn't fall, and won the two rematches by stoppage against those two. Lennox Lewis had a good chin. And was a top Heavyweight of all time.

Hmm..what that tells a lewis if very average and small fighter a like Tua can punch him all night? It didn't happen..most punches which tua land was not full hits.

sivaru

08-08-2008, 08:02 AM

I pick prime Tyson head to head over anybody just because of his great balance of speed and power.

damn straight :good

McGrain

08-08-2008, 08:34 AM

1 - Muhamad Ali
2 - Joe Louis
3 - Sonny Liston
4 - Lennox Lewis
5 - Mike Tyson

That's how I feel about it.

Asterion

08-08-2008, 08:39 AM

Ali.

jusren2

08-08-2008, 09:04 AM

I love L. Lewis and George Foreman. Great fighters with different styles but same results. Foreman KO's L.L. in the thir round. But they would be a great 8 minutes.

Sakura

08-08-2008, 09:05 AM