why is stanley ketchel so underated here?

[SuzieQ49]

The guy gets no respect, even some of the old time fans here dont rate him too highly. I think he belongs near the top......say what u want about his film vs papke, but thats equivalent to judging evanders skill level based off the vaughn bean fight...u would think much differently of evander wouldnt u?

[heehoo]

I think he's the hardest hitting middleweight of all time. Dude was fearless, had dynamite in both hands, and nearly KO'd Jack Johnson of all people. I also tend to think of him as one of the greatest of all time.... if not the greatest middleweight of all time. It's fucked up he was murdered at such a young age...

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

One of my all-time favorite fighters. His life story is the stuff legends are made of, right up there with Johnson's (not to mention somewhat similar, save for the whole race thing).

[MRBILL]

The guy gets no respect, even some of the old time fans here dont rate him too highly. I think he belongs near the top......say what u want about his film vs papke, but thats equivalent to judging evanders skill level based off the vaughn bean fight...u would think much differently of evander wouldnt u?

Christ, he's been dead since 1910. Film footage is rare as all hell of him, as well.. Stanley Ketchel was shot dead at age 24 or very close to that age; he didn't last long... His 1909 title challenge to Jack Johnson was heroic, but Ketchel ended up looking up at the sky while being counted out.... Stan Ketchel was great, but their just is not enough fresh film footage and fond memories of him as a fighter.... Still, its not like he's totally disrespected or anything like that... I think Ketchel gets a fair amount of respect and votes from the fans and historians.... Peace...

MR.BILL:admin

[Loewe]

Well, imo he get´s his due. He is rated in the top10 at mw by most. Maybe not as highly as you would but well, oppinions differ sometimes.

@heehoo:
If Ketchel nearly knocked Johnson out, why did Johnson jump up immediatly. He wasn´t hurt or anything. It was a legit KD but nothing more.

[fists of fury]

Stan Ketchel was great, but their just is not enough fresh film footage and fond memories of him as a fighter....
MR.BILL:admin

That hasn't stopped people from praising Greb to the skies; a fighter nobody has fight footage of.

I personally rate Ketchel highly. He was as mean and vicious a fighter as there's been and may have achieved more had he lived longer.

[fists of fury]

@heehoo:
If Ketchel nearly knocked Johnson out, why did Johnson jump up immediatly. He wasn´t hurt or anything. It was a legit KD but nothing more.

He wasn't on queer street, but the punch clearly stunned him. He hardly sprang up either.

[Ezzard]

Ketchel is a great. He was one of the divisions top punchers. He looks a bit crude on the films you can see but it's almost impossible to tell properly. The late KO of O'Brien is a bit special.

[Maxmomer]

1. Because he doesn't look great on film.

2. Because he's been dead for nearly 100 years.

[Unforgiven]

He wasn't on queer street, but the punch clearly stunned him. He hardly sprang up either.

The film watched frame-by-frame clearly shows Johnson is falling before the punch even comes close to landing. Strange but true.

[fists of fury]

Seriously? I'd have to check that out.

[flamengo]

The guy gets no respect, even some of the old time fans here dont rate him too highly. I think he belongs near the top......say what u want about his film vs papke, but thats equivalent to judging evanders skill level based off the vaughn bean fight...u would think much differently of evander wouldnt u?

Ketchel is underestimated here due to him being over estimated everywhere else. Les Darcy is the only one under estimated here...

[mcvey]

The guy gets no respect, even some of the old time fans here dont rate him too highly. I think he belongs near the top......say what u want about his film vs papke, but thats equivalent to judging evanders skill level based off the vaughn bean fight...u would think much differently of evander wouldnt u?
Top ten for sure ,he carried his power right through a fight ,and twice kod the L H king O' Brien.

[mcvey]

The film watched frame-by-frame clearly shows Johnson is falling before the punch even comes close to landing. Strange but true.
Ive often thought that ,Gunboat Smith Johnson's sparring partner for that fight said "they pulled a fake knockdown",some Johnson detractors will happily tell you that Johnson was close to being out,BS.

[Sweet Pea]

That hasn't stopped people from praising Greb to the skies; a fighter nobody has fight footage of.Greb accomplished far more than Ketchell however, and the lack of footage is more a point of mystery than criticism, whereas the footage available of Ketchell is less than impressive. Then again I don't see the major differences between him and the majority of the fighters of that era. Different eras, rules, regulations, etc lead to different styles. Can't really fault them for that.

I rate him as a top 10 MW, but definitely not on the level of say, Fitzsimmons or Greb.

[Loewe]

btw. here is German poem by the great German writer Bertholt Brecht, who also was a huge boxing fan, about the first twelve mw champions. It was printed for the first time 1927. It´s called momorial plague for 12 world champs. He describes how they became champs, against who and what they were most known for. However, he made the mistake of calling Jack O'Brian a mw champ. but other than it´s great.

Bertolt Brecht (1898-1956)
Gedenktafel für 12 Weltmeister

Dies ist die Geschichte der Weltmeister im Mittelgewicht
Ihrer Kämpfe und Laufbahnen
Vom Jahre 1891
Bis heute.
Ich beginne die Serie im Jahre 1891 -

Der Zeit rohen Schlagens
Wo die Boxkämpfe noch über 56 und 70 Runden gingen
Und einzig beendet wurden durch den Niederschlag -
Mit Bob Fitzsimmons, dem Vater der Boxtechnik
Inhaber der Weltmeisterschaft im Mittelgewicht

Und im Schwergewicht (durch seinen am 17. März 1897 erfochtenen Sieg über
Jim Corbett).
34 Jahre seines Lebens im Ring, nur sechsmal geschlagen
So sehr gefürchtet, daß er das ganze Jahr 1889
Ohne Gegner war. Erst im Jahr 1914

Im Alter von 51 Jahren absolvierte er
Seine beiden letzten Kämpfe:
Ein Mann ohne Alter.
1905 verlor Bob Fitzsimmons seinen Titel an
Jack O'Brien genannt Philadelphia Jack.

Jack O'Brien begann seine Boxerlaufbahn
Im Alter von 18 Jahren
Er bestritt über 200 Kämpfe. Niemals
Fragte Philadelphia Jack nach der Börse.
Er ging aus von dem Standpunkt

Daß man lernt durch Kämpfe
Und er siegte, so lange er lernte.
Jack O'Briens Nachfolger war
Stanley Ketchel
Berühmt durch vier wahre Schlachten

gegen Billie Papke
Und als rauhster Kämpfer aller Zeiten
Hinterrücks erschossen mit 23 Jahren
An einem lachenden Herbsttage
Vor seiner Farm sitzend

Unbesiegt.
Ich setze meine Serie fort mit
Billie Papke
Dem ersten Genie des Infighting.
Damals wurde zum ersten Male gehört

Der Name: Menschliche Kampfmaschine.
Im Jahre 1913 zu Paris
Wurde er geschlagen
Durch einen größeren in der Kunst des Infightins:
Frank Klaus.

Frank Klaus, sein Nachfolger, traf sich
Mit den berühmten Mittelgewichten seiner Zeit
Jim Gardener, Billie Berger
Willie Lewis und Jack Dillon
Und Georges Carpentier war gegen ihn schwach wie ein Kind.

Ihn schlug George Chip
Der unbekannte Mann aus Oklahoma
Der nie sonst Taten von Bedeutung vollbrachte
Und geschlagen wurde von
Al Maccoy, dem schlechtesten aller Mittelgewichtsmeister

Der weiter nichts konnte als einstecken
Und seiner würde entkleidet wurde von
Mike O'Dowd
Dem Mann mit dem eisernen Kinn
Geschlagen von

Johnny Wilson
Der 48 Männer k.o. schlug
Und selber k.o. geschlagen wurde von
Harry Grebb, der menschlichen Windmühle
Dem zuverlässigsten aller Boxer

Der keinen Kampf ausschlug
Und jeden bis zu Ende kämpfte
Und wenn er verloren hatte, sagte:
Ich habe verloren.
Der den Männertöter Dempsey

Den Tigerjack, den Manassamauler
Verrückt machte, daß er beim training
Seine Handschuhe wegwarf
Das "Phantom, das nicht stillstehen konnte"
Geschlagen 1926 nach Punkten von

Tiger Flowers, dem Neger und Pfarrer
Der nie k.o. ging.
Nach ihm war Weltmeister im Mittelgewicht
Der Nachfolger des boxenden Pfarrers
Mickey Walker, der den mutigsten Boxer Europas

Den Schotten Tommy Milligan
Am 30. Juni 1927 zu London in 30 Minuten
In Stücke schlug.
Bob Fitzsimmons
Jack O'Brien

Stanley Ketchel
Billie Papke
Frank Klaus
George Chip
Al MacCoy

Mike O'Dowd
Johnny Wilson
Harry Grebb
Tiger Flowers
Mickey Walker -

Dies sind die Namen von 12 Männern
Die auf ihrem Gebiet die besten ihrer Zeit waren
Festgestellt durch harten Kampf
Unter der Beobachtung der Spielregeln
Vor den Augen der Welt.

[mcvey]

Greb accomplished far more than Ketchell however, and the lack of footage is more a point of mystery than criticism, whereas the footage available of Ketchell is less than impressive. Then again I don't see the major differences between him and the majority of the fighters of that era. Different eras, rules, regulations, etc lead to different styles. Can't really fault them for that.

I rate him as a top 10 MW, but definitely not on the level of say, Fitzsimmons or Greb.
Ketchel was dead at 23, a month and a day before his 24th birthday,he had 48 kos in 53 wins,for such a short career he accomplished a lot imo.

[Russell]

Ive often thought that ,Gunboat Smith Johnson's sparring partner for that fight said "they pulled a fake knockdown",some Johnson detractors will happily tell you that Johnson was close to being out,BS.

Wouldn't doubt it. Johnson went into the fight with a exhibition mentality, as he was told it'd be a 20 round draw that would result in a big money rematch.

He was casually beating the shit out of Ketchel the entire fight, so who knows.

[janitor]

1. Because he doesn't look great on film.


I dont think Ketchel looks good on film but Philadelphia Jack O'Brien does look prety good and Ketchel destroyed him twice.

Looking good on film isnt everything.

[Maxmomer]

I dont think Ketchel looks good on film but Philadelphia Jack O'Brien does look prety good and Ketchel destroyed him twice.

Looking good on film isnt everything.
I'm just saying, when people denigrate Ketchel, one of the first things they say is that he looks like shit in the available footage.

[Colleen Aycock]

I think as late as the 1970s, Nat Fleischer rated him as the #1 middleweight of all time.

[janitor]

I think as late as the 1970s, Nat Fleischer rated him as the #1 middleweight of all time.

Welcome to the board.

Are you in fact the authour of the coming Joe Gans book?

[Colleen Aycock]

Yes, I co-authored the book with Mark Scott. It is actually out now and available at Amazon and Barnes and Noble. Thank you for asking and being so welcoming. As you see, I am a newbie here, but this looks like an amazing forum.

[janitor]

Yes, I co-authored the book with Mark Scott. It is actually out now and available at Amazon and Barnes and Noble. Thank you for asking and being so welcoming. As you see, I am a newbie here, but this looks like an amazing forum.

You will be a verry welcome addition to this forum.

[Bummy Davis]

I rate Ketchel on high end of top 5

[Brian123]

I have sung Ketchel's praises many times here! He is top five all-time at middleweight-exactly where we could argue forever.

As for Ketchel vs. Johnson we know the outcome of the fight but remember some of these things:

-Ketchel had never fought another heavyweight-he jumped from middleweight to the fighting the #1 HW in the world all-in one shot

-he was only 23

-gave up 35 pounds and 4'5 inches and had fought Johnson to a draw at that point(12 rounds).

The fight ended when both men went down (from punches) but Johnson arose still dazed and clung to the ropes for the win.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Colleen Aycock]

Thank you for the kind welcome to the forum. As for the Ketchel-Johnson fight, I thought you might be interested in some information about this fight that I came across while researching the Joe Gans book. The fight never made sense to me as much as I admired Ketchel. Ketchel was a terrific fighter but at forty pounds lighter, he had no business being in the same ring with Jack Johnson, but the handling of the fight seems to explain it. The fight was arranged by Ketchel's "scoundrel" manager at the time--Willus Britt, Jimmie Britt's brother/manager. (Willie Britt was one of the four club managers in the San Francisco fight cartel at the time.) The K/J fight was five years after a similar arrangement had been made by manager W. Britt between Jimmy Britt and Joe Gans, a fight that virtually derailed Gans' title lineage. Willus Britt made a deal with Gans' manager, Al Herford, to let Jimmy Britt have a good showing in exchange for "fouling out." The same arrangement was said to have been made by Britt for the Ketchel-Johnson fight. We can only assume that Johnson let Ketchel toy with him until he thought "enough of that showing!!"
Colleen

[mcvey]

That report does not fit with the film which shows Johnson picking Ketchel up like a doll and placing him where he likes,twice he wobbles Stanley and grabs him before he goes down sitting him back on his feet .Johnson is standing ,one hand on his hip the other ontheropes ,lookin nonchalantly down on his vanquished foe.WATCH THE FIGHT BEFORE MAKING STATEMENTS LIKE THIS ! :patsch

[mcvey]

Thank you for the kind welcome to the forum. As for the Ketchel-Johnson fight, I thought you might be interested in some information about this fight that I came across while researching the Joe Gans book. The fight never made sense to me as much as I admired Ketchel. Ketchel was a terrific fighter but at forty pounds lighter, he had no business being in the same ring with Jack Johnson, but the handling of the fight seems to explain it. The fight was arranged by Ketchel's "scoundrel" manager at the time--Willus Britt, Jimmie Britt's brother/manager. (Willie Britt was one of the four club managers in the San Francisco fight cartel at the time.) The K/J fight was five years after a similar arrangement had been made by manager W. Britt between Jimmy Britt and Joe Gans, a fight that virtually derailed Gans' title lineage. Willus Britt made a deal with Gans' manager, Al Herford, to let Jimmy Britt have a good showing in exchange for "fouling out." The same arrangement was said to have been made by Britt for the Ketchel-Johnson fight. We can only assume that Johnson let Ketchel toy with him until he thought "enough of that showing!!"
Colleen
Any one watching this fight who thinks it is on the level,and that Johnson is trying to hurt Ketchel ,should take up BRAILLE.

[Colleen Aycock]

As they say, "to get along, Johnson had to go along." The San Francisco trust had the clout to call the shots in many of the fights. You are right when you said on another post that you thought Johnson was just upset and let Ketchel know about it.

[MRBILL]

Nat Fleischer was a stubborn man partial to a certain era of fighters.... Nat has been dead since 1972 or so..... His opinions are out of date / tune... Nat had some weight behind his opinions' while he was alive, but 35 years have now passed by and we've had several great fighters pop up in various divisions who'd give his personal favorites a damn good run for the money, if not beat them convincingly...

MR.BILL

Extra:

Dudes like "Ketchel & Greb" were very tough and rugged brawlers, but not blessed with polished skills... As great as they were, "Robinson, Monzon, Hagler & B-Hops" would eat them two guys up in a time machine....