Rate the Heavyweights 1927-37

[mattdonnellon]

Recent debates regarding the respective merits of Carnera, Schmeling, Sharkey, Braddock, Baer etc leads me to proposing a thread rating the heavyweights from Dempsey to Louis not including these two greats but including Tunney.
We have the champions, Tunney, Schmeling, Sharkey, Carnera, Baer and Braddock as well as Loughran and Godfrey for sure. Then there is a whole slew of contenders like Risko, Stribling, Griffiths, Heeney,Poreda, Schaaf, Walker, Rosenbloom, Lewis, a host of Europeans like VonPorat, Charles,Uzcudun, Neussel, Scott etc Larry Gains, Hamas, Lasky and on and on. How about a top 10 1927-37?
I'll lead off;
Tunney
Sharkey
Schmeling
Loughran
Baer
Godfrey
Carnera
Braddock
Hamas
Rosenbloom

[janitor]

Recent debates regarding the respective merits of Carnera, Schmeling, Sharkey, Braddock, Baer etc leads me to proposing a thread rating the heavyweights from Dempsey to Louis not including these two greats but including Tunney.
We have the champions, Tunney, Schmeling, Sharkey, Carnera, Baer and Braddock as well as Loughran and Godfrey for sure. Then there is a whole slew of contenders like Risko, Stribling, Griffiths, Heeney,Poreda, Schaaf, Walker, Rosenbloom, Lewis, a host of Europeans like VonPorat, Charles,Uzcudun, Neussel, Scott etc Larry Gains, Hamas, Lasky and on and on. How about a top 10 1927-37?
I'll lead off;
Tunney
Sharkey
Schmeling
Loughran
Baer
Godfrey
Carnera
Braddock
Hamas
Rosenbloom

Interesting question.

I would have to say that for my money Schmeling is thge greatest.

1. Max Schmeling
2/3. Jack Sharkey/Max Baer
4. Primo Carnera
5. Tommy Loughran
6. Jimmy Braddock
7. George Godfrey
8. Young Stribling
9. Johnny Risko
10. Maxie Rosenbloom
11. Steve Hamas
12. Earnie Schaff
13. King Levinsky
14. Art Lasky

[mcvey]

Tunney
Baer
Sharkey/Schmeling
Loughran
Godfrey
Gains
Braddock
Hamas
Carnera/Stribling
Risko

[janitor]

Tunney
Baer
Sharkey/Schmeling
Loughran
Godfrey
Gains
Braddock
Hamas
Carnera/Stribling
Risko

Carnera beneath Hamas, Braddock, Gains, Godfrey and Loughran?

[mcvey]

Carnera beneath Hamas, Braddock, Gains, Godfrey and Loughran?
Braddock had wins over
Farr
Baer
[who destroyed Carnera]
JH Lewis
Lasky
Slattery
Griffiths[who was 40-0-0]
Dropped Louis[who destroyed Carnera]

Gains wins over
Walker
Carnera[easy win ,flooring him along the way]
Mckorkindale
Renault
Scott
Godfrey
Rojas
Gorman
Schmeling
Roberti

Loughran ,wins over
Griffiths
Impelletiere
London
Ettore
Godoy
Hamas
Levinsky
Uzcudon
Sharkey
Braddock
Baer

Thats three wins over three men who held the title
AND NOT A FIX IN SIGHT!

[janitor]

[quote=mcvey]Braddock had wins over
Farr
Baer
[who destroyed Carnera]


The Farr win was a robery and there is some evidence that Baer was fighting with two broken hands from the fourth round onwards.


JH Lewis
Lasky
Slattery
Griffiths[who was 40-0-0]
Dropped Louis[who destroyed Carnera]


Louis also destroyed Braddock.


Gains wins over
Walker
Carnera[easy win ,flooring him along the way]
Mckorkindale
Renault
Scott
Godfrey
Rojas
Gorman
Schmeling
Roberti


In other words he beat nobody of note outside of Godfrey and green versions of Schmeling and Carnera.


Loughran ,wins over
Griffiths
Impelletiere
London
Ettore
Godoy
Hamas
Levinsky
Uzcudon
Sharkey
Braddock
Baer


And of course Carnera beat him.

To be fair you have used the equivalent argument against Carnera when it was to his disadvantage.


Thats three wins over three men who held the title
AND NOT A FIX IN SIGHT!


Really?

Do you think Braddock was not involved in fixed fights?

He actualy lost his boxing liscence on this basis.

What about Baer?

[mattdonnellon]

Consensus so far...
Tunney
Schmeling
Baer
Sharkey
Loughran
Godfrey
Braddock
Carnera
Hamas
Stribling

Oh and Janitor, what about Tunney?
And i like your Rosenbloom pick!

[mcvey]

Carnera had 61 fights when he fought Gains how can you call him green? :patsch

[janitor]

Carnera had 61 fights when he fought Gains how can you call him green? :patsch

If as you claim most of these fights were fixed then they would not have been of much value to him.

That aside:

Carnera improved after this point. It is not just Sharkey that thought so but Dempsey as well. The evidence is also available on film.

Carnera was well schooled and refined over this period.

[mcvey]

If as you claim most of these fights were fixed then they would not have been of much value to him.

That aside:

Carnera improved after this point. It is not just Sharkey that thought so but Dempsey as well. The evidence is also available on film.

Carnera was well schooled and refined over this period.
In the words of Dylan you can have your cake and eat it too".I don't think so.Nice try though. So Carnera was well schooled and improved then suddenly he meets a live one in Baer ,followed by Louis and gets murdered in both ,the then twice by Leroy Haynes,,but of course he is past it now right? At29! Braddock lost his licence because he was figting with broken hands and needed the dough ,not because the mob were fixing fights for him.What evidence have you that a, Baer had broken hands? and b,that he had a fixed fight?Braddock with painkilling injections in him the day of the fight ,and suffering with arthritis gave Louis a competitive fight putting him down .Carnera was slaughtered by Louis.Primo ,after the fight being asked if he wanted a rematch, with Louis" JESU GOD NO"

[janitor]

[quote=mcvey]In the words of Dylan you can have your cake and eat it too".I don't think so.Nice try though. So Carnera was well schooled and improved then suddenly he meets a live one in Baer ,followed by Louis and gets murdered in both ,the then twice by Leroy Haynes,,but of course he is past it now right?

Baer and Louis were much better than anybody Carnera had fought before. They simply beat him because they were better than him.

Sharkey was also somewhat better but Carnera caught him on an off night and fought the fight of his life to become champion.

By the time Carnera fought Haynes he was obviously shot. Even you admit that he legitimately beat guys like Loughran, Levinsky and Lasky who were better than Haynes.


At29! Braddock lost his licence because he was figting with broken hands and needed the dough ,not because the mob were fixing fights for him.

No he lost his boxing liscence because he was acused of holding a staged fight with neither guy trying.

What evidence have you that a, Baer had broken hands?

The post fight medical report.

and b,that he had a fixed fight?

Research the Dutch Weimar fight.

Braddock with painkilling injections in him the day of the fight ,and suffering with arthritis gave Louis a competitive fight putting him down .Carnera was slaughtered by Louis.

At least he did better than Baer, Lewis and Schmeling second time round.


Primo ,after the fight being asked if he wanted a rematch, with Louis" JESU GOD NO.


Max Baer gave the same answer to the same question.

[mcvey]

[quote]

Baer and Louis were much better than anybody Carnera had fought before. They simply beat him because they were better than him.

Sharkey was also somewhat better but Carnera caught him on an off night and fought the fight of his life to become champion.

By the time Carnera fought Haynes he was obviously shot. Even you admit that he legitimately beat guys like Loughran, Levinsky and Lasky who were better than Haynes.




No he lost his boxing liscence because he was acused of holding a staged fight with neither guy trying.



The post fight medical report.



Research the Dutch Weimar fight.



At least he did better than Baer, Lewis and Schmeling second time round.



Max Baer gave the same answer to the same question.
A fixed fight is when the result is pre- arranged Weimar swallowed it ,Look at his record why would anybody have to pay him to take a dive? Carnera had fixed fights with Stribling x2,Peterson,CLisby,Godfrey,Gorman,Chevalier, Clark. and others eg Wiggins, Harris. That is not an overmatched guy taking a drop ,as in Jeffries vesus Finnegan.

[OLD FOGEY]

Braddock had wins over
Farr
Baer
[who destroyed Carnera]
JH Lewis
Lasky
Slattery
Griffiths[who was 40-0-0]
Dropped Louis[who destroyed Carnera]

Gains wins over
Walker
Carnera[easy win ,flooring him along the way]
Mckorkindale
Renault
Scott
Godfrey
Rojas
Gorman
Schmeling
Roberti

Loughran ,wins over
Griffiths
Impelletiere
London
Ettore
Godoy
Hamas
Levinsky
Uzcudon
Sharkey
Braddock
Baer

Thats three wins over three men who held the title
AND NOT A FIX IN SIGHT!

Gains was knocked out by Godfrey in their first bout. In the second, he won on a foul, the same as Carnera. Godfrey probably lost more fights on fouls than any other major fighter. The Carnera foul win over Godfrey may well have been legit.

[OLD FOGEY]

[quote=janitor]
A fixed fight is when the result is pre- arranged Weimar swallowed it ,Look at his record why would anybody have to pay him to take a dive? Carnera had fixed fights with Stribling x2,Peterson,CLisby,Godfrey,Gorman,Chevalier, Clark. and others eg Wiggins, Harris. That is not an overmatched guy taking a drop ,as in Jeffries vesus Finnegan.

Of this list of opponents, only Godfrey was anything but a pushover at the time they fought Carnera. How can you be certain Peterson was not just an overmatched guy taking a drop?

[OLD FOGEY]

Braddock had wins over
Farr
Baer
[who destroyed Carnera]
JH Lewis
Lasky
Slattery
Griffiths[who was 40-0-0]
Dropped Louis[who destroyed Carnera]

Gains wins over
Walker
Carnera[easy win ,flooring him along the way]
Mckorkindale
Renault
Scott
Godfrey
Rojas
Gorman
Schmeling
Roberti

Loughran ,wins over
Griffiths
Impelletiere
London
Ettore
Godoy
Hamas
Levinsky
Uzcudon
Sharkey
Braddock
Baer

Thats three wins over three men who held the title
AND NOT A FIX IN SIGHT!

Gains won the decision over Carnera, but did he floor him? The New York Times report on the fight does not mention Carnera going down:

After stating that Gains was the sharper boxer this night, there is this comment:

"Carnera appeared hurt, however, only once. In the sixth Gains caught the Italian with two terrific rights to the jaw and the tiant went back on his heels, a look of surprise on his face."

Carnera did hurt Gains, however:

"In the seventh, a hard left sent Gains back on his heels just before the bell and in the 10th the Canadian nearly went down when Carnera connected with a right swing to the jaw."

This 10th round is on Youtube in a profile of Carnera and the film in fact shows that Gains was indeed knocked down. He appears to sit on the floor and there is no doubt at all that his right glove is on the canvas. It was a flash knockdown, though.

Carnera lost four decisions from 1930 through the Loughran fight, to Maloney, Sharkey, Gains, and Poreda. The Poreda decision was considered a robbery. Carnera defeated Maloney and Sharkey in rematches. He definitely lost to Gains but had Gains down. All the while he was beating a fair number of highly rated contenders.

[OLD FOGEY]

In the words of Dylan you can have your cake and eat it too".I don't think so.Nice try though. So Carnera was well schooled and improved then suddenly he meets a live one in Baer ,followed by Louis and gets murdered in both ,the then twice by Leroy Haynes,,but of course he is past it now right? At29! Braddock lost his licence because he was figting with broken hands and needed the dough ,not because the mob were fixing fights for him.What evidence have you that a, Baer had broken hands? and b,that he had a fixed fight?Braddock with painkilling injections in him the day of the fight ,and suffering with arthritis gave Louis a competitive fight putting him down .Carnera was slaughtered by Louis.Primo ,after the fight being asked if he wanted a rematch, with Louis" JESU GOD NO"

"he is past it now right? At 29!"

Come down with diabetes and lose a kidney and you might be past it at 29, especially considering the state of medical care in the 1930's.

[Mendoza]

Recent debates regarding the respective merits of Carnera, Schmeling, Sharkey, Braddock, Baer etc leads me to proposing a thread rating the heavyweights from Dempsey to Louis not including these two greats but including Tunney.
We have the champions, Tunney, Schmeling, Sharkey, Carnera, Baer and Braddock as well as Loughran and Godfrey for sure. Then there is a whole slew of contenders like Risko, Stribling, Griffiths, Heeney,Poreda, Schaaf, Walker, Rosenbloom, Lewis, a host of Europeans like VonPorat, Charles,Uzcudun, Neussel, Scott etc Larry Gains, Hamas, Lasky and on and on. How about a top 10 1927-37?
I'll lead off;
Tunney
Sharkey
Schmeling
Loughran
Baer
Godfrey
Carnera
Braddock
Hamas
Rosenbloom

I suppose my top 10 here would be:

Tunney
Schmeling
Baer
Sharkey
Godfrey
Carnera
Gains
Rosenbloom
Uzcudun
Schaff

Horrible era of talent.