New Ring Magazine P4P List 8/8/07

[Sweet Pea Pacquiao]

New Ring Magazine P4P List 8/8/07

1. Floyd Mayweather (World Welterweight Champion)
2. Manny Pacquiao (Super Featherweight #1 Contender)
3. Juan Manuel Marquez (Super Featherweight #2 Contender)
4. Bernard Hopkins (World Light Heavyweight Champion)
5. Israel Vazquez (World Super Bantamweight Champion)
6. Winky Wright (Middleweight #1 Contender)
7. Rafael Marquez (Super Bantamweight #1 Contender)
8. Joe Calzaghe (World Super Middleweight Champion)
9. Ricky Hatton (World Super Lightweight Champion)
10. Miguel Cotto (#1 Welterweight Contender)

IN THIS WEEK: Vazquez at #5
OUT THIS WEEK: Taylor

[Pimp C]

New Ring Magazine P4P List 8/8/07

1. Floyd Mayweather (World Welterweight Champion)
2. Manny Pacquiao (Super Featherweight #1 Contender)
3. Juan Manuel Marquez (Super Featherweight #2 Contender)
4. Bernard Hopkins (World Light Heavyweight Champion)
5. Israel Vazquez (World Super Bantamweight Champion)
6. Winky Wright (Middleweight #1 Contender)
7. Rafael Marquez (Super Bantamweight #1 Contender)
8. Joe Calzaghe (World Super Middleweight Champion)
9. Ricky Hatton (World Super Lightweight Champion)
10. Miguel Cotto (#1 Welterweight Contender)

IN THIS WEEK: Vazquez at #5
OUT THIS WEEK: Taylor
WOW I can't believe they dropped taylor like that/

[Sweet Pea Pacquiao]

Taylor gets no respect. The guy he technically beat twice is #4 and the guy he drew with is #6.

It looks like he has to beat Pavlik and Calzaghe to get back on this list.

[Guru_Too_You]

New Ring Magazine P4P List 8/8/07

1. Floyd Mayweather (World Welterweight Champion)
2. Manny Pacquiao (Super Featherweight #1 Contender)
3. Juan Manuel Marquez (Super Featherweight #2 Contender)
4. Bernard Hopkins (World Light Heavyweight Champion)
5. Israel Vazquez (World Super Bantamweight Champion)
6. Winky Wright (Middleweight #1 Contender)
7. Rafael Marquez (Super Bantamweight #1 Contender)
8. Joe Calzaghe (World Super Middleweight Champion)
9. Ricky Hatton (World Super Lightweight Champion)
10. Miguel Cotto (#1 Welterweight Contender)

IN THIS WEEK: Vazquez at #5
OUT THIS WEEK: Taylor

Taylor got the boot eh? And I think Vazquez leapfrogging everyone to 5 is a bit much.

[Smith]

Vasquez straight in above Calzaghe, fucking bullshit

[Pimp C]

Taylor got the boot eh? And I think Vazquez leapfrogging everyone to 5 is a bit much.
I agree i had him 11 on mine
Here's mine
1.PBF
2.Hopkins
3.Pac
4.JMM
5.Taylor
6.Wright
7.Calzaghe
8.Hatton
9.Calderon
10Cotto
11.Vasquez

[Sweet Pea Pacquiao]

Well, Rafa was as high as #4, and a stoppage win over him combined with wins over Choko Hernandez (who beat Too Sharp Johnson), Jhonny Gonzalez, and Oscar Larios twice makes him deserving in the Top 5...although over Winky? And even Taylor, who dropped off the list? I'm not quite sure about that.

[Danny Ocean]

cotto in after beating a guy coming off 2losses

[Guru_Too_You]

Well, Rafa was as high as #4, and a stoppage win over him combined with wins over Choko Hernandez (who beat Too Sharp Johnson), Jhonny Gonzalez, and Oscar Larios twice makes him deserving in the Top 5...although over Winky? And even Taylor, who dropped off the list? I'm not quite sure about that.

You cant take Taylor off the list and leave Marquez in it. Thats absurd.

I do like Vazquez in the top 10, but I would say 7 or 8 would be much more accurate.

[Sweet Pea Pacquiao]

MY LIST:
1. Mayweather
2. Pacquiao
3. Hopkins
4. Wright
5. Taylor
6. Vazquez
7. Hatton
8. Calzaghe
9. JMM
10. R. Marquez

11. Mosley
12. Cotto

[Caper]

I agree i had him 11 on mine
Here's mine
1.PBF
2.Hopkins
3.Pac
4.JMM
5.Taylor
6.Wright
7.Calzaghe
8.Hatton
9.Calderon
10Cotto
11.Vasquez

Nice list Pimp.....:smoke

I got the same dudes only it might be switched around a little.

[Illmatic]

Winky is in and Taylor is off? What the hell? When's the last time Winky won a fight?

[Sweet Pea Pacquiao]

I agree Guru. I put Vazquez at #6 but I can see an argument for him being in the Top 5 though with his resume the last 6 fights. A second win over RM followed by a win over Caballero would send him soaring into the Top 4 for sure in my book.

[Sweet Pea Pacquiao]

When is Calderon going to move up to 108? He's easily the best at 105 but hasn't defended his title against anyone really worthy. He needs some higher profile fights to be considered P4P.

[Mind Reader]

MY LIST:
1. Mayweather
2. Pacquiao
3. Hopkins
4. Wright
5. Taylor
6. Vazquez
7. JMM
8. Hatton
9. Calzaghe
10. R. Marquez

11. Mosley
12. Cotto

Good list:good

[Guru_Too_You]

IMHO: Top 15

1 - Mayweather
2 - Pacquiao
3 - Hopkins
4 - J.M. Marquez
5 - Taylor
6 - Wright
7 - Vasquez
8 - Calzaghe
9 - Cotto
10 - Hatton
11 - R. Marquez
12 - Calderon
13 - Mosley
14 - Klitschko
15 - Dawson

[Chert]

1. pbf
2. pac
3. bhop
4. taylor
5. winky
6. jmm
7. vasquez
8. calzaghe
9. rafa
10. hatton
11. cotto

[Pimp C]

Nice list Pimp.....:smoke

I got the same dudes only it might be switched around a little.
Thanks! Let's see yours.

[kg0208]

When is Calderon going to move up to 108? He's easily the best at 105 but hasn't defended his title against anyone really worthy. He needs some higher profile fights to be considered P4P.

His next fight is against a 108 champion.

Calderon is fighting who's available....but I don't think anyone wants to fight him at minimum anymore.

[the_what]

JMM is to high on the list.

[Pimp C]

When is Calderon going to move up to 108? He's easily the best at 105 but hasn't defended his title against anyone really worthy. He needs some higher profile fights to be considered P4P.
He's moving up in his next fight. No matter who he fights he'll never get the respect he deserves at 105 or 108. Calderon IMO is a top 10 P4P talent.

[Sweet Pea Pacquiao]

He's moving up in his next fight. No matter who he fights he'll never get the respect he deserves at 105 or 108. Calderon IMO is a top 10 P4P talent.

He is, but without a really great fighter in those weight classes to really compare him with, the media has let him slip under the radar. Do you think he could outbox any of the champs at 112 to a decision?

[Pimp C]

JMM is to high on the list.
Why do you say that?

[Pimp C]

He is, but without a really great fighter in those weight classes to really compare him with, the media has let him slip under the radar. Do you think he could outbox any of the champs at 112 to a decision?
He's just now moving up to 108. I'd like to see him perform there before I can really evaluate his chances at 112.

[brooklyn1550]

Barrera is out...overall, a good list

[Sweet Pea Pacquiao]

JMM is too high because he has one big win: a decision over a faded Barrera. If anything, his draw with Pacquiao is the fight that first gave him P4P legitimacy, because wins over Salido, Polo, Gainer, and Terdsak Jandaeng do not make him worthy, not to mention a loss to Chris John.

[Asterion]

New Ring Magazine P4P List 8/8/07

1. Floyd Mayweather (World Welterweight Champion)
2. Manny Pacquiao (Super Featherweight #1 Contender)
3. Juan Manuel Marquez (Super Featherweight #2 Contender)
4. Bernard Hopkins (World Light Heavyweight Champion)
5. Israel Vazquez (World Super Bantamweight Champion)
6. Winky Wright (Middleweight #1 Contender)
7. Rafael Marquez (Super Bantamweight #1 Contender)
8. Joe Calzaghe (World Super Middleweight Champion)
9. Ricky Hatton (World Super Lightweight Champion)
10. Miguel Cotto (#1 Welterweight Contender)

IN THIS WEEK: Vazquez at #5
OUT THIS WEEK: Taylor


Juan Manuel Marquez is too high. He doesn't deserve #3. I would also put Cotto above Hatton.

[Chert]

JMM is too high because he has one big win: a decision over a faded Barrera. If anything, his draw with Pacquiao is the fight that first gave him P4P legitimacy, because wins over Salido, Polo, Gainer, and Terdsak Jandaeng do not make him worthy.
yep. i agree. at most, jmm should occupy the spot barrera was on before their fight and that was about #6 p4p.

[Amsterdam]

Vasquez straight in above Calzaghe, fucking bullshit

Wait until Kessler gets blown out, Calzaghe will be a rightful top 3.:good

Other than this, I disagree with Wright being number 6 and Vasquez jumping in to #5.

I'd have Wright at #10 and Vasquez at #8.

[Amsterdam]

Juan Manuel Marquez is too high. He doesn't deserve #3. I would also put Cotto above Hatton.

I agree with this also.

[Chert]

hatton beat a much better fighter in castillo compared to cotto beating judah who lost to baldo. hatton is rightfully above cotto.

[kg0208]

I don't see Cotto in there personally. Especially not over Hatton. There is no Kostya Tszyu on Cotto's resume.

[Amsterdam]

I don't see Cotto in there personally. Especially not over Hatton. There is no Kostya Tszyu on Cotto's resume.

What is your list? What do you think about Wright being excessively high and then JMM being top 3, which others have expressed opposition to those rankings?

What about Hatton replacing Wright at #6?

[Chert]

I don't see Cotto in there personally. Especially not over Hatton. There is no Kostya Tszyu on Cotto's resume.

yep. hatton has already defeated 2 elite fighters. the same can't be said about cotto.

[kg0208]

What is your list? What do you think about Wright being excessively high and then JMM being top 3, which others have expressed opposition to those rankings?

What about Hatton replacing Wright at #6?

Wright is no longer on my list, and JMM is in the middle. But my list is different than many, always has been because I ALWAYS rate Calderon and will until someone beats him.

1. PBF
2. Pacquiao
3. Calzaghe
4. Taylor
5. JMM
6. Vasquez
tie. Hatton
8. R Marquez
9. Calderon
10. Hopkins (no, I don't give him a ton of credit for beating up a guy who jumped 2 weight classes to fight him)

[China_hand_Joe]

Lets have a look at the Hopkins, Taylor, Wright triangle

4th Hopkins 1-2-0
6th Wright 0-1-1
11th Taylor 2-1-0


Lets also examine some more RING logic

Hopkins vs Wright
42 year old vs 35 year old in a competetive fight - do you put them both high or both low


The laughably low placement of Joe Calzaghe at 8 is just an attempt to undermine my efforts to educate internet boxing fans

Their habit of placing any two known fighters who have a close fight or series of fights both above a legend like Joe Calzaghe must stop

[Amsterdam]

Wright is no longer on my list, and JMM is in the middle. But my list is different than many, always has been because I ALWAYS rate Calderon and will until someone beats him.

1. PBF
2. Pacquiao
3. Calzaghe
4. Taylor
5. JMM
6. Vasquez
tie. Hatton
8. R Marquez
9. Calderon
10. Hopkins (no, I don't give him a ton of credit for beating up a guy who jumped 2 weight classes to fight him)

That's an awesome, well thought out List.:good

I will say though that Calzaghe has not yet earned a top 5 spot, but that it's coming in November. I think you regard Calzaghe even higher than I do on terms of current legacy, which is interesting considering that Calzaghe to me is like Roy Jones to you, though I regard Calzaghe better head to head.

Anyway, this is much more realistic to the moment and I am glad that you take in head to head factors when ranking these guys.

[China_hand_Joe]

That's an awesome, well thought out List.:good

I will say though that Calzaghe has not yet earned a top 5 spot, but that it's coming in November. I think you regard Calzaghe even higher than I do on terms of current legacy, which is interesting considering that Calzaghe to me is like Roy Jones to you, though I regard Calzaghe better head to head.

Anyway, this is much more realistic to the moment and I am glad that you take in head to head factors when ranking these guys.Calzaghe goes top one based on the same criteria that Mayweather gets to number two upon [fullstop] Unless you feel Calzaghe has declined in which case he can be listed lower [fullstop]

[China_hand_Joe]

Wright is no longer on my list, and JMM is in the middle. But my list is different than many, always has been because I ALWAYS rate Calderon and will until someone beats him.

1. PBF
2. Pacquiao
3. Calzaghe
4. Taylor
5. JMM
6. Vasquez
tie. Hatton
8. R Marquez
9. Calderon
10. Hopkins (no, I don't give him a ton of credit for beating up a guy who jumped 2 weight classes to fight him)Solid list, although I would have Kessler in rather than Hopkins [fullstop]

[kg0208]

That's an awesome, well thought out List.:good

I will say though that Calzaghe has not yet earned a top 5 spot, but that it's coming in November. I think you regard Calzaghe even higher than I do on terms of current legacy, which is interesting considering that Calzaghe to me is like Roy Jones to you, though I regard Calzaghe better head to head.

Anyway, this is much more realistic to the moment and I am glad that you take in head to head factors when ranking these guys.

Well Calzaghe was #5 for me before. I can't see putting any of the other guys ahead of him. Marquez just lost, and so did Wright. He takes their spots.

I don't know what you mean that you regard Calzaghe better H2H than I do Jones. I think Jones could beat anybody at 160-168. I only ever pick Hagler to beat him, and even that is by the slimmest of margins.

[kg0208]

Solid list, although I would have Kessler in rather than Hopkins [fullstop]

Kessler over Hopkins is interesting. But I could put Dawson in over Hopkins as well, since I have Dawson rated higher at LHW. I could also add Cotto over Hopkins.

[Decebal]

The laughably low placement of Joe Calzaghe at 8 is just an attempt to undermine my efforts to educate internet boxing fans



Don't worry, China_hand_Joe, The Ring is kidding no-one!;)

[Amsterdam]

Well Calzaghe was #5 for me before. I can't see putting any of the other guys ahead of him. Marquez just lost, and so did Wright. He takes their spots.

I don't know what you mean that you regard Calzaghe better H2H than I do Jones. I think Jones could beat anybody at 160-168. I only ever pick Hagler to beat him, and even that is by the slimmest of margins.

I mean I regard Calzaghe better head to head at the moment than you do. I don't feel ANYBODY beats Calzaghe from the 160-175 crop currently, so long as he doesn't significantly continue down his decline, this includes Dawson and other 175 fighters.

I don't pick Hagler to beat Jones at 160 or 168, nor do I pick him to beat Calzaghe at 168 either. Speed was something Hagler didn't react well against and Jones and Calzaghe both would be a hell of a jump up in terms of big men with tremendous speed and coordination.

[Amsterdam]

Calzaghe goes top one based on the same criteria that Mayweather gets to number two upon [fullstop] Unless you feel Calzaghe has declined in which case he can be listed lower [fullstop]

When Calzaghe defeats Kessler, the top 3 spot is warranted. Head to head basis, he could be number 1 easily.

[Chert]

the prob w/ calzaghe is that even with an unbeaten record and a very long reign as a champion, he doesn't have victories against elite fighters in his record. He has also been a super middleweight throughout his career unlike the others in the list who have gone up in weight in their careers.

[China_hand_Joe]

Hopkins high placement in P4P rankings has always been dependent on the names of his opponents, rather than their actually ability at the weight and point in time Hopkins faced them at [fullstop]

[Amsterdam]

Hopkins high placement in P4P rankings has always been dependent on the names of his opponents, rather than their actually ability at the weight and point in time Hopkins faced them at [fullstop]

I agree with this.

[China_hand_Joe]

Don't worry, China_hand_Joe, The Ring is kidding no-one!;)It is time a campaign was undertaken in which their status as the most 'offical' rankings body was undermined [fullstop]

[Guru_Too_You]

Wright is no longer on my list, and JMM is in the middle. But my list is different than many, always has been because I ALWAYS rate Calderon and will until someone beats him.

1. PBF
2. Pacquiao
3. Calzaghe
4. Taylor
5. JMM
6. Vasquez
tie. Hatton
8. R Marquez
9. Calderon
10. Hopkins (no, I don't give him a ton of credit for beating up a guy who jumped 2 weight classes to fight him)

But you apparently dont give him too much credit for jumping up two weight classed to beat some one either.

Do you use strictly official results or your perceived results in your rankings?

[China_hand_Joe]

You really cant argue with Ring coz its the only thing that countsJust as I made my above post!

[Guru_Too_You]

Hopkins high placement in P4P rankings has always been dependent on the names of his opponents, rather than their actually ability at the weight and point in time Hopkins faced them at [fullstop]

Tell that to the 18 middleweights he trounced as champion.

Or the oddsmakers and general boxing opinions before the Tarver fight.

Say that again for the bout with Trinidad too.

[China_hand_Joe]

But you apparently dont give him too much credit for jumping up two weight classed to beat some one either.

Do you use strictly official results or your perceived results in your rankings?Tarver was journeyman level by the time Hopkins got to him [fullstop] An empty name of a fighter [fullstop]

[Guru_Too_You]

Tarver was journeyman level by the time Hopkins got to him [fullstop] An empty name of a fighter [fullstop]
Which must be the reason he was heavily favored here and in Vegas [fullstop]

When Calzaghe mans up and moves up one division, let alone two divisions and beats the man, come talk to me [fullstop]

[kg0208]

But you apparently dont give him too much credit for jumping up two weight classed to beat some one either.

Do you use strictly official results or your perceived results in your rankings?

I use official results.

As for Hopkins jumping up to beat Tarver. Hopkins started at LHW. He has always been capable of that weight class. He just trained himself to stay down at MW. He is much larger than Wright, who has had at least one fight at 147. Hopkins said himself that he has been capable of being a LHW for years.

[China_hand_Joe]

Which must be the reason he was heavily favored here and in Vegas [fullstop]

When Calzaghe mans up and moves up one division, let alone two divisions and beats the man, come talk to me [fullstop]I cannot be blamed if the majority of American fans are clueless mate [fullstop]

I remember how Baldomir was shockingly a signficant underdog against Gatti, that does not mean he deserves any credit at all for the victory [fullstop]

[El Bombasto]

Taylor got the boot eh? And I think Vazquez leapfrogging everyone to 5 is a bit much.

yeah, vazquez is getting too much credit for beating marquez

[Guru_Too_You]

I use official results.

As for Hopkins jumping up to beat Tarver. Hopkins started at LHW. He has always been capable of that weight class. He just trained himself to stay down at MW. He is much larger than Wright, who has had at least one fight at 147. Hopkins said himself that he has been capable of being a LHW for years.
True, but would you rank him historically as a LHW? Just because he could have fought there does not mean he should have to. Tarver spoke of being a HW and has always said that he could fight at HW. Shouldnt we then rank Hopkins win as a LHW winning over a HW?

Using official results, I can see how Hopkins could fall in your list, as I feel he deserved a draw in his first bout with Taylor and a win in the second, but still to discredit his win over Tarver because his first bout as a pro was as a LHW is a little absurd IMHO. I also feel the same about the way you discredit his win over Winky. Winky was a career junior middleweight regardless of whether he got down to 147 for a bout and Hopkins was a career middleweight regardless of whether he had his first fight at 175. Very uncharacterisitc of you KG.

[Guru_Too_You]

I cannot be blamed if the majority of American fans are clueless mate [fullstop]

I remember how Baldomir was shockingly a signficant underdog against Gatti, that does not mean he deserves any credit at all for the victory [fullstop]

I will not argue about anyone from 160-175 with some one named after Calzaghe [fullstop]

Enjoy yourself [fullstop]

[Decebal]

It is time a campaign was undertaken in which their status as the most 'offical' rankings body was undermined [fullstop]

The campaign has officially started!:happy

[China_hand_Joe]

Wow, JMM #3 when his biggest showing ever is his controversial draw with Pacquaio.
The more I think about it, its unbelievable. what were they thinking???
Above Hopkins, Wright, Calzaghe, and even Taylor as unimpressive as he is lately.

JMM might move into #1 if he beats Juarez. Ring is betting the farm on this guy:huhRING are doing so many strange things, their list is no more credible than any poster's list in this thread [fullstop]

[China_hand_Joe]

I will not argue about anyone from 160-175 with some one named after Calzaghe [fullstop]

Enjoy yourself [fullstop]Hindsight is a useful tool mate, if we can't see or accept things a long time after they happen we have no chance [fullstop] We now know what a victory over Tarver was worth [fullstop]

[Ramshall1]

Its a good list. . . any list can be dissected and everyone has their own list but beating Marquez the way Izzy did is HUGE.

Im a big Jermain Taylor fan, but his dogshiit performance against Stinks earned him a drop. . . maybe not as a bog a drop as they gave him but its his fault.

[kg0208]

True, but would you rank him historically as a LHW? Just because he could have fought there does not mean he should have to. Tarver spoke of being a HW and has always said that he could fight at HW. Shouldnt we then rank Hopkins win as a LHW winning over a HW?

Using official results, I can see how Hopkins could fall in your list, as I feel he deserved a draw in his first bout with Taylor and a win in the second, but still to discredit his win over Tarver because his first bout as a pro was as a LHW is a little absurd IMHO. Very uncharacterisitc of you KG.
I'm not discrediting it. I don't think Tarver is that good. Never have. No I won't rate Hopkins historically at LHW. But we are talking about how large Hopkins actually was, not the weight class he fought in.

I don't give ANY fighter alot of credit for beating smaller men. I never have. I am being consistant. Even if I were to give Hopkins alot of credit for jumping up to beat Tarver, that would have only put him at #4-5 on my list, which is where he was when he beat Tarver. Then he became inactive, other fighters fought and won, and he dropped off. A win over a much smaller Wright will not move him up much. Officially he has losses.

Unofficially I think he is 0-1-1 against Taylor. Its why I keep that out of the rankings.

[Guru_Too_You]

I'm not discrediting it. I don't think Tarver is that good. Never have. No I won't rate Hopkins historically at LHW. But we are talking about how large Hopkins actually was, not the weight class he fought in.

I don't give ANY fighter alot of credit for beating smaller men. I never have. I am being consistant. Even if I were to give Hopkins alot of credit for jumping up to beat Tarver, that would have only put him at #4-5 on my list, which is where he was when he beat Tarver. Then he became inactive, other fighters fought and won, and he dropped off. A win over a much smaller Wright will not move him up much. Officially he has losses.

Unofficially I think he is 0-1-1 against Taylor. Its why I keep that out of the rankings.

Fair enough. I still think that you are being harsh regarding Hopkins. He fought coming straight out of jail and wasnt in too good of shape for that first bout. I don't think he's that much bigger than any of the middleweights that he fought during his championship reign, and can specifically remember a few (Echols, Taylor, etc.) that were bigger than he was. Now if we're talking Tito and DLH, I see your point.

[Guru_Too_You]

Hindsight is a useful tool mate, if we can't see or accept things a long time after they happen we have no chance [fullstop] We now know what a victory over Tarver was worth [fullstop]
And we know how little the win over Lacy meant then too. Again for Eubank.

And what other big wins does Joe have? Oh yeah, NONE.

If he beats Kessler, it will legitimize everything I have seen him do in the ring. Then, he would most certainly make my top 5 pound for pound, due to the extraordinary things he can do in the ring. I just want to see it done versus another proven, top notch opponent.

[China_hand_Joe]

This month I guess any posters p4p is just as valid.
JMM #3 :huh
Taylor Out??
Vasquez should be higher than Rafa but #5 cmonRING love any well known fighters in a close series of fights, so long as they are not european [fullstop] Morales - Barrera, Hopkins - Taylor and now Rafa - Vasquez

[China_hand_Joe]

And we know how little the win over Lacy meant then too. Again for Eubank.

And what other big wins does Joe have? Oh yeah, NONE.

If he beats Kessler, it will legitimize everything I have seen him do in the ring. Then, he would most certainly make my top 5 pound for pound, due to the extraordinary things he can do in the ring. I just want to see it done versus another proven, top notch opponent.Haven't you heard of Robin Reid or David Starie, mate [questionmark] But P4P listings shouldn't be about opponents, just what that individual can do in the ring [fullstop] Hopkins can't do that much anymore and it will show against the first top notch LHW he faces [fullstop]

[Guru_Too_You]

Haven't you heard of Robin Reid or David Starie, mate [questionmark]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA [fullstop]

[Decebal]

If he beats Kessler, it will legitimize everything I have seen him do in the ring. Then, he would most certainly make my top 5 pound for pound, due to the extraordinary things he can do in the ring. I just want to see it done versus another proven, top notch opponent.

I don't think that Bute will be enough of a draw though, unfortunately...:-(

[Guru_Too_You]

I don't think that Bute will be enough of a draw though, unfortunately...:-(

Well it took the entire world bitching and moaning for damn near a year for him to agree to Kessler, so good luck with Bute.

[BewareofDawg]

New Ring Magazine P4P List 8/8/07

1. Floyd Mayweather (World Welterweight Champion)
2. Manny Pacquiao (Super Featherweight #1 Contender)
3. Juan Manuel Marquez (Super Featherweight #2 Contender)
4. Bernard Hopkins (World Light Heavyweight Champion)
5. Israel Vazquez (World Super Bantamweight Champion)
6. Winky Wright (Middleweight #1 Contender)
7. Rafael Marquez (Super Bantamweight #1 Contender)
8. Joe Calzaghe (World Super Middleweight Champion)
9. Ricky Hatton (World Super Lightweight Champion)
10. Miguel Cotto (#1 Welterweight Contender)

IN THIS WEEK: Vazquez at #5
OUT THIS WEEK: Taylor
WHAT THE FUCK!!!!!! :fire :fire :fire

No way Winky gets dropped from the top 5. The guy has one of the best resumes in the past few years and has dominated in the process. He loses a wrestling match 16lbs above his natural weight in a still very close fight and gets bounced for that?????? Bullshit! Hopkins catapults him? Hopkins was the much bigger man, and was being ********* and beaten by Winky until the headbutting, hugging, spooning and crotch-grabbing finally tired Wright out :deal

[kg0208]

Fair enough. I still think that you are being harsh regarding Hopkins. He fought coming straight out of jail and wasnt in too good of shape for that first bout. I don't think he's that much bigger than any of the middleweights that he fought during his championship reign, and can specifically remember a few (Echols, Taylor, etc.) that were bigger than he was. Now if we're talking Tito and DLH, I see your point.

I give him full credit for most of his MW wins. His biggest name wins are against smaller fighters though.

But those wins are a while back. It's not so much taking credit from Hopkins, as giving credit to guys who didn't lose. Officially, the losses to Taylor hurt him more than anything else when I do rankings.

[Guru_Too_You]

WHAT THE FUCK!!!!!! :fire :fire :fire

No way Winky gets dropped from the top 5. The guy has one of the best resumes in the past few years and has dominated in the process. He loses a wrestling match 16lbs above his natural weight in a still very close fight and gets bounced for that?????? Bullshit! Hopkins catapults him? Hopkins was the much bigger man, and was being ********* and beaten by Winky until the headbutting, hugging, spooning and crotch-grabbing finally tired Wright out :deal

Don't blame Hopkins. Winky could have had that bout years ago. He just thought that Bernard was too old. He could have come in in better shape too.

[China_hand_Joe]

David Starie outclased Clinton Woods in similar fashion to how Roy Jones Jr did [fullstop] An off game Calzaghe easily and heavily outpointed Starie [fullstop]

[BewareofDawg]

I agree i had him 11 on mine
Here's mine
1.PBF
2.Hopkins
3.Pac
4.JMM
5.Taylor
6.Wright
7.Calzaghe
8.Hatton
9.Calderon
10Cotto
11.Vasquez
Taylor above Wright? Get off the drugs Pimp :patsch

[China_hand_Joe]

I'd been waiting to drop Wright for about a year [fullstop] He is on the slide [fullstop]

[kg0208]

WHAT THE FUCK!!!!!! :fire :fire :fire

No way Winky gets dropped from the top 5. The guy has one of the best resumes in the past few years and has dominated in the process. He loses a wrestling match 16lbs above his natural weight in a still very close fight and gets bounced for that?????? Bullshit! Hopkins catapults him? Hopkins was the much bigger man, and was being ********* and beaten by Winky until the headbutting, hugging, spooning and crotch-grabbing finally tired Wright out :deal

Yes but Wright has not had a big win in a while. He has a draw and a loss....losses drop you. He can't live off the Trinidad win forever. Beating old Quartey and Soliman (and that was too close) are not great wins.

[Amsterdam]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA [fullstop]

A guy like Reid is very comparable to Echols, whom is regarded as one of Hopkins' good wins, in fact, a top prepared Reid is actually superior to a peak Echols.

[Guru_Too_You]

I give him full credit for most of his MW wins. His biggest name wins are against smaller fighters though.

But those wins are a while back. It's not so much taking credit from Hopkins, as giving credit to guys who didn't lose. Officially, the losses to Taylor hurt him more than anything else when I do rankings.

Thats what I figured. Its a good list KG. I personally feel like Hopkins was 1-0-1 against Taylor and when I rank P4P I use my own personal scorecards as opposed to the official ones if they differ. Granted this leads to many more questions and debates, but if I feel strongly enough that a bout should have gone a different way, my P4P list must reflect this or I feel it would be dishonest.

Given just the official results though, my list would look much differently, and looking back at yours, probably very similar with the exception of Calzaghe being a little further down the list.

And I agree that Calderon should be rated, I just cant squeeze him in the top ten with the level of competition he has faced in a solitary division. If he wins his next bout, he's going to be top ten for sure.

[BewareofDawg]

Don't blame Hopkins. Winky could have had that bout years ago. He just thought that Bernard was too old. He could have come in in better shape too.
I'm not blaming Hopkins. But you cannot deny the fact that Hopkins size advantage and rough housing is what won him that fight. How does that make you better than you opponent on a P4P basis if you use your extra pounds and size to win the fight?

[China_hand_Joe]

Prime focused Reid (only ever seen against Calzaghe due to personal nature of their rivally) would trouble nearly any fighter in history and possibly beat Hopkins [fullstop]

[Guru_Too_You]

A guy like Reid is very comparable to Echols, whom is regarded as one of Hopkins' good wins.

Oh Amsterdam, you know I like you, but Calzaghe still needs elite fighters to legitimize himself.

[BewareofDawg]

Oh Amsterdam, you know I like you, but Calzaghe still needs elite fighters to legitimize himself.
What the "premature stoppage" of the Contender runner-up didn't convince you of his Greatness? :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

[Amsterdam]

Oh Amsterdam, you know I like you, but Calzaghe still needs elite fighters to legitimize himself.

You know that I agree with this. I am just noting that you laughed at CHJ's comment on Reid and Starie when both can be compared to Echols easily, with Reid in fact being a notch up and that Hopkins gets credit for beating Echols badly twice, which I give Hopkins that credit.

Reid, Starie, Sheika, Woodhall and Mitchell, all B level, with Reid being B+, but no worse really than Hopkins' resume if you strip away Trinidad, DLH and Tarver and then if you really want to look at it, Lacy and Eubank then can move Calzaghe into that region because DLH and Trinidad are P4P guys, but very much smaller P4P guys and KG has that right.

You have to give everybody credit after really researching guys.

[Amsterdam]

What the "premature stoppage" of the Contender runner-up didn't convince you of his Greatness? :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

No, but DLH losing on my card to Quartey, Whitaker, Mosely 2, Sturm and easily PBF can take away from his greatness also.

I also scored the Trinidad fight a draw, yet you were so quick to arrogantly pick DLH over Floyd Mayweather, but wish to bash Calzaghe because of the common opinion you've heard from the American perspective.

[Guru_Too_You]

I'm not blaming Hopkins. But you cannot deny the fact that Hopkins size advantage and rough housing is what won him that fight. How does that make you better than you opponent on a P4P basis if you use your extra pounds and size to win the fight?

So it was the pounds and size that completely removed Winky's jab from the fight?

It wasnt Bernard's footwork and ring generalship? It wasnt the way he came in and out at weird angles? Did that look like the typical Bernard to you?

[Guru_Too_You]

You know that I agree with this. I am just noting that you laughed at CHJ's comment on Reid and Starie when both can be compared to Echols easily, with Reid in fact being a notch up and that Hopkins gets credit for beating Echols badly twice, which I give Hopkins that credit.

Reid, Starie, Sheika, Woodhall and Mitchell, all B level, with Reid being B+, but no worse really than Hopkins' resume if you strip away Trinidad, DLH and Tarver and then if you really want to look at it, Lacy and Eubank then can move Calzaghe into that region because DLH and Trinidad are P4P guys, but very much smaller P4P guys and KG has that right.

You have to give everybody credit after really researching guys.

Yes, but of Hopkins' 20 title defenses I would say there are two fighters who you could rate as less than B level. The same cannot be said about Calzaghe.

[Amsterdam]

So it was the pounds and size that completely removed Winky's jab from the fight?

It wasnt Bernard's footwork and ring generalship? It wasnt the way he came in and out at weird angles? Did that look like the typical Bernard to you?

But that was an easy fight to predict, on top of it, Winky came in horrible condition and Hopkins looked worse than I thought he would.

I was predicting a Hopkins shutout, but he just didn't look that great and that's nothing on him as he's 42!!!

But I scored it 8-4, it's a good win, but should be kept in context and that's why I agree with KG. And I'm a Hopkins fan also... who isn't?

[chliJs]

New Ring Magazine P4P List 8/8/07

1. Floyd Mayweather (World Welterweight Champion)
2. Manny Pacquiao (Super Featherweight #1 Contender)
3. Juan Manuel Marquez (Super Featherweight #2 Contender)
4. Bernard Hopkins (World Light Heavyweight Champion)
5. Israel Vazquez (World Super Bantamweight Champion)
6. Winky Wright (Middleweight #1 Contender)
7. Rafael Marquez (Super Bantamweight #1 Contender)
8. Joe Calzaghe (World Super Middleweight Champion)
9. Ricky Hatton (World Super Lightweight Champion)
10. Miguel Cotto (#1 Welterweight Contender)

IN THIS WEEK: Vazquez at #5
OUT THIS WEEK: Taylor

this list is the truth.

[Amsterdam]

Yes, but of Hopkins' 20 title defenses I would say there are two fighters who you could rate as less than B level. The same cannot be said about Calzaghe.

This is true and I am not denying that, but what I am saying is that Calzaghe's resume is not all that bad, like people make out.

On top of it Guru, it's not just the win, but how they won, that's why Hopkins gets credit for shutting out Echols, when Calzaghe totally blasts Kessler the fuck out of the ring, that will be taken into consideration, especially since he's past prime.

[BewareofDawg]

No, but DLH losing on my card to Quartey, Whitaker, Mosely 2, Sturm and easily PBF can take away from his greatness also.

I also scored the Trinidad fight a draw, yet you were so quick to arrogantly pick DLH over Floyd Mayweather, but wish to bash Calzaghe because of the common opinion you've heard from the American perspective.
I wasn't alone in picking Hoya over Floyd. And it wasn't an "ignorant" pick either. It was a very close fight. I along with everyone else (about 15 people) at the house I was at scored the fight a draw. And being that Hoya has been competitive in every single fight he has ever been in pretty much exonerates anyone from the "ignorant" label for picking him to win any fight.

I wasn't bashing Calzaghe. But he should not have fought Manfredo.

[Guru_Too_You]

But that was an easy fight to predict, on top of it, Winky came in horrible condition and Hopkins looked worse than I thought he would.

I was predicting a Hopkins shutout, but he just didn't look that great and that's nothing on him as he's 42!!!

But I scored it 8-4, it's a good win, but should be kept in context and that's why I agree with KG. And I'm a Hopkins fan also... who isn't?

I agree entirely, (w)right down to your scorecard. Hopkins made the leap to 175, and then Winky thought that he would have an advantage making Bernard come back down in weight. Winky could have had that bout anytime he wanted to for the last ten years and finally decided to man up when he felt things were in his favor.

All things considered over their careers, Winky fought 6 pounds south of Bernard, and in the old days they would have been in the same division.

I feel Bernard should get full credit for the win, especially considering many felt that Wright was even more successful against Taylor than Bernard was at middleweight.

[Guru_Too_You]

This is true and I am not denying that, but what I am saying is that Calzaghe's resume is not all that bad, like people make out.

On top of it Guru, it's not just the win, but how they won, that's why Hopkins gets credit for shutting out Echols, when Calzaghe totally blasts Kessler the fuck out of the ring, that will be taken into consideration, especially since he's past prime.

:good

[Amsterdam]

I wasn't alone picking Hoya over Floyd. And it wasn't an "ignorant" pick either. It was a very close fight. And being that Hoya has been competitive in every single fight he has ever been in pretty much exonerates anyone from the "ignorant" label for picking him to win any fight.

It was one of the most ignorant picks all year long and if you consider that fight close, then the only reason why is that you're a major DLH fan. 8-4 or 9-3, take your pick, but that's not close and Floyd didn't even open up on him.


I wasn't bashing Calzaghe. But he should not have fought Manfredo.


I agree, but it's been a bitch to get any name in with Calzaghe for his entire career, so they went the route of taking on an easy American name for Joe to thrash and the goal was to open up the casual fan to Joe more so and then try to get the interest of a Taylor match up, which Taylor and camp refused before hand and refused after, asking for 10 million dollars.

So then they took the next best thing and went after Kessler, which was also a heavy bitch to get signed and it wasn't Calzaghe's camp and ****** who was the problem.

It's all about learning the right context. Taylor and camp are the cowards and Kessler and camp were a pain in the ass, where as Calzaghe was ready to sign any big name right after the Lacy fight, which that fight in turn made him one of boxing's biggest names and opened the doors needed to secure fights.

[Amsterdam]

I agree entirely, (w)right down to your scorecard. Hopkins made the leap to 175, and then Winky thought that he would have an advantage making Bernard come back down in weight. Winky could have had that bout anytime he wanted to for the last ten years and finally decided to man up when he felt things were in his favor.

All things considered over their careers, Winky fought 6 pounds south of Bernard, and in the old days they would have been in the same division.

I feel Bernard should get full credit for the win, especially considering many felt that Wright was even more successful against Taylor than Bernard was at middleweight.

It put him back in my top 10 P4P after I took him out for the retirement, which didn't last long.

He gets plenty of credit, to me Hopkins is a top 25 ATG, that's a damn lot of credit.:yep

[Guru_Too_You]

It put him back in my top 10 P4P after I took him out for the retirement, which didn't last long.

He gets plenty of credit, to me Hopkins is a top 25 ATG, that's a damn lot of credit.:yep
We always meet in the middle. I too have him in my top 30 all-time, and for TRULY educated fans, thats shitloads of credit.

[Chert]

if calzaghe beats kessler, he certainly becomes a top 5 p4p, above jmm, winky and taylor.

[China_hand_Joe]

Here is an interesting thread comparing the resumes of Hopkins and Calzaghe - [Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Pimp C]

Taylor above Wright? Get off the drugs Pimp :patsch
Hey I'm a big Winky fan i thought he beat taylor but he lost to Hopkins and Taylor didn't lose to Spinks, so he had to drop. He didn't fall that far.:D

[Unlimited]

Just a question why is hatton in yall top ten?

[41fever]

Taylor gets no respect. The guy he technically beat twice is #4 and the guy he drew with is #6.

It looks like he has to beat Pavlik and Calzaghe to get back on this list.
If Taylor wants to stay on then he should campaign as a JMW cuz that's whom his recent opposition was against and some good JMW fighters...Ouma and Spinks. In Pavlik, he's finally fighting a MW. BTW, I thought Spinks outpointed him.

[roly]

Just a question why is hatton in yall top ten?

because he's a two weight title holder, undefeated, the man at 140, he beat koysta, and just ko'd castillo who's never been down before in 4 rounds.... shall i go on?

[Unlimited]

because he's a two weight title holder, undefeated, the man at 140, he beat koysta, and just ko'd castillo who's never been down before in 4 rounds.... shall i go on?

Just asking cuz I never heard of Hatton till his last 2 fights and I believe there were some other boxers who could have been place up there

[pejevan]

I agree i had him 11 on mine
Here's mine
1.PBF
2.Hopkins
3.Pac
4.JMM
5.Taylor
6.Wright
7.Calzaghe
8.Hatton
9.Calderon
10Cotto
11.Vasquez

Why all of a sudden Hopkins is in number 2. Defeating a much much much much smaller Wright did not prove anything.

[Brickhaus]

When is Calderon going to move up to 108? He's easily the best at 105 but hasn't defended his title against anyone really worthy. He needs some higher profile fights to be considered P4P.

He's fighting 108 champ Cazares at the end of the month :good

re: Winky - he beat Quartey (handily) at the end of last year. He moved up a class to beat one P4P fighter and draw another, then moved up 2 weight classes to lose to a guy 16 lbs over his natural fighting weight. His resume more than warrants him being ranked that high.

[dave82]

Why all of a sudden Hopkins is in number 2. Defeating a much much much much smaller Wright did not prove anything.

I respect your opinion however i believe Wright lost to the better man plan and simple. Its possible that Winky was too 'small', lets not forget a 42 year old hopkins defeated a top pound for pound fighter. Thats an achievement.

Hopkins is P4P # 2

[theHawtness]

New Ring Magazine P4P List 8/8/07

1. Floyd Mayweather (World Welterweight Champion)
2. Manny Pacquiao (Super Featherweight #1 Contender)
3. Juan Manuel Marquez (Super Featherweight #2 Contender)
4. Bernard Hopkins (World Light Heavyweight Champion)
5. Israel Vazquez (World Super Bantamweight Champion)
6. Winky Wright (Middleweight #1 Contender)
7. Rafael Marquez (Super Bantamweight #1 Contender)
8. Joe Calzaghe (World Super Middleweight Champion)
9. Ricky Hatton (World Super Lightweight Champion)
10. Miguel Cotto (#1 Welterweight Contender)

IN THIS WEEK: Vazquez at #5
OUT THIS WEEK: Taylor
taylor out? no way.. the guy gets no respect. :verysad