View Full Version : When Calzaghe defeats Kessler, his legacy...
Amsterdam
08-08-2007, 01:35 PM
Should be viewed as superior to Kostya Tszyu's legacy. Yes or no?:think
It's a good question as Kostya and Joe are my two favourite fighters from recent times.
Smith
08-08-2007, 01:38 PM
Yes, oh yes....
kg0208
08-08-2007, 01:39 PM
His legacy is already superior.
Amsterdam
08-08-2007, 01:43 PM
His legacy is already superior.
I disagree KG. I think they're dead even and someone can easily make a case for Tszyu.
Illmatic
08-08-2007, 01:44 PM
Yes, I believe so. SO much longevity, and despite being a little porous, KTs reign as undisputed champ was porous as well b/c of inactivity
kg0208
08-08-2007, 01:47 PM
I disagree KG. I think they're dead even and someone can easily make a case for Tszyu.
I disagree.
They both dominated one division. Calzaghe has dominated his longer.
They both have wins over an ATG, but Calzaghe's was no where near as faded (though not as big of an ATG).
Calzaghe has more title defenses and he hasn't lost. That is his biggest edge.
They both beat up and coming champions in Judah and Lacy.
And Calzaghe has never quit.
brooklyn1550
08-08-2007, 01:58 PM
If Calzaghe beats Kessler, then yes, I think his legacy is greater than Tszyu's - but not by much
Amsterdam
08-08-2007, 02:00 PM
I disagree.
They both dominated one division. Calzaghe has dominated his longer.
Both were also avoided champions, but Tszyu managed to sneak in some superior wins in my opinion during his reign, just slightly superior though.
They both have wins over an ATG, but Calzaghe's was no where near as faded (though not as big of an ATG).
JCC was at maybe 45%, Eubank was at 70%, so I agree. But JCC is a top 15. The only thing that gives Calzaghe a real edge in this comparison, is that he was very green for Eubank.
Calzaghe has more title defenses and he hasn't lost. That is his biggest edge.
It is indeed his edge, but I am a critical fan, even over my favourites and even though much of the period of not being able to secure legacy fights at his peak was not his fault, they still didn't happen. Tszyu smashing Judah and Sharmba twice is a nice point, then with some other wins.
Both share a lot of domination over B level opponents...
They both beat up and coming champions in Judah and Lacy.
But Judah went on to spark Cory Spinks and become the undisputed champion, many feel Kostya really messed over Judah's career and you could agree to a point, but it remains to be seen if Calzaghe totally ruined Lacy and what Lacy can do in the future.
If Lacy gets back to form and wins a belt and still is a key player in the division and is never dominated again like that, then obviously the Lacy win makes more sense.
And Calzaghe has never quit.
And he never will, he's a true warrior in the ring. The Kessler win secures his legacy as superior to Kostya Tszyu's, but at the moment, they're even.
jecxbox
08-08-2007, 02:00 PM
If Calzaghe gets past Kessler...he will definitely be an ATG at 168lbs....I'd love to see Calzaghe vs Pavlik/Taylor after that one as well.
Pimp C
08-08-2007, 02:00 PM
Yes. His streak of title defenses at 168 is clearly superior to what Zoo did at 140.
Amsterdam
08-08-2007, 02:05 PM
If Calzaghe gets past Kessler...he will definitely be an ATG at 168lbs....I'd love to see Calzaghe vs Pavlik/Taylor after that one as well.
Pavlik/Taylor is an easy fight, one that wouldn't count much for legacy. Chad Dawson is the best choice if we really want a 50/50 fight.
Guru_Too_You
08-08-2007, 02:06 PM
I disagree.
They both dominated one division. Calzaghe has dominated his longer.
They both have wins over an ATG, but Calzaghe's was no where near as faded (though not as big of an ATG).
Calzaghe has more title defenses and he hasn't lost. That is his biggest edge.
They both beat up and coming champions in Judah and Lacy.
And Calzaghe has never quit.
Great post. I think that Calzaghe still needs to do some things to reach ATG status, but I also feel that Tszyu is very overrated in the same regard.
BigReg
08-08-2007, 02:07 PM
Don't you mean IF Calzaghe defeats Kessler.
Although they both would have defeated the top challengers in their respective divisions, with Calzaghe remaining undefeated, KT would receive extra points from me for going into hostile territory (a different continent) to do it. Defeating an undefeated Judah and a very good Mitchell twice on U.S. soil holds a lot of weight with me. Even taking the fight against Hatton in Great Britain even although he was the champ. If Calzaghe wins, I would have then rate their legacy as equal.
kg0208
08-08-2007, 02:10 PM
Both were also avoided champions, but Tszyu managed to sneak in some superior wins in my opinion during his reign, just slightly superior though.
JCC was at maybe 45%, Eubank was at 70%, so I agree. But JCC is a top 15. The only thing that gives Calzaghe a real edge in this comparison, is that he was very green for Eubank.
It is indeed his edge, but I am a critical fan, even over my favourites and even though much of the period of not being able to secure legacy fights at his peak was not his fault, they still didn't happen. Tszyu smashing Judah and Sharmba twice is a nice point, then with some other wins.
Both share a lot of domination over B level opponents...
But Judah went on to spark Cory Spinks and become the undisputed champion, many feel Kostya really messed over Judah's career and you could agree to a point, but it remains to be seen if Calzaghe totally ruined Lacy and what Lacy can do in the future.
If Lacy gets back to form and wins a belt and still is a key player in the division and is never dominated again like that, then obviously the Lacy win makes more sense.
And he never will, he's a true warrior in the ring. The Kessler win secures his legacy as superior to Kostya Tszyu's, but at the moment, they're even.
They are not even to me. KT has losses which negate any edge he might have in wins, and edge that I am not sure is there to begin with. And one of those losses was pretty bad. He also never tried to avenge his losses.
And while Judah went on to beat Spinks and Lacy has done less, Calzaghe IMO destroyed Lacy in a fashion that may have caused that. Lacy isn't the same fighter and that's due to Calzaghe. And while you mention Mitchell, I would point out that Robin Reid is just as accomplished IMO.
Those losses weight heavily (especially the first one) and Calzaghe having more defenses also gives him an edge to me. Otherwise, resume is even IMO since I don't think KT did much in the way of stepping up any more than Calzahge has.
Amsterdam
08-08-2007, 02:11 PM
Don't you mean IF Calzaghe defeats Kessler.
I clearly said when.;)
Amsterdam
08-08-2007, 02:12 PM
Great post. I think that Calzaghe still needs to do some things to reach ATG status, but I also feel that Tszyu is very overrated in the same regard.
List them out for the discussions sake.:D
BigReg
08-08-2007, 02:13 PM
I clearly said when.;)
Then clearly you think it's a forgone conclussion that Calzaghe is going to win. Which would leave me to believe that you don't believe Kessler to be much a challenge. Am I correct?
Amsterdam
08-08-2007, 02:21 PM
Then clearly you think it's a forgone conclussion that Calzaghe is going to win. Which would leave me to believe that you don't believe Kessler to be much a challenge. Am I correct?
Correct sir, but I have felt for years that Calzaghe easily dispatches pretty much anybody from the 160-175 crop at his best, he just doesn't have the necessary names on his resume to back up this theory for a variety of reasons.
Kessler is easily within the top 5 fighters between 160-175, he can easily defeat anybody that he can control and that is most of the crop, save for Calzaghe and Dawson.
Kessler is a supreme win for anybody within that general weight region, a fantastic notch and one that most people aren't convinced that Calzaghe will easily dominate him.
This win will legitimise my feelings of Calzaghe being a top 3 P4P fighter, something that you can't yet rank him as.
achillesthegreat
08-08-2007, 02:38 PM
Calzaghes record is probably already superior. Calzaghe beat an all time top 168 pounder, Tszyu hasn't done that. Tszyu has lost, Calzaghe hasn't.
If Calzaghe beats Kessler he is the best super middleweight ever, bar none.
BigReg
08-08-2007, 02:43 PM
Correct sir, but I have felt for years that Calzaghe easily dispatches pretty much anybody from the 160-175 crop at his best, he just doesn't have the necessary names on his resume to back up this theory for a variety of reasons.
Kessler is easily within the top 5 fighters between 160-175, he can easily defeat anybody that he can control and that is most of the crop, save for Calzaghe and Dawson.
Kessler is a supreme win for anybody within that general weight region, a fantastic notch and one that most people aren't convinced that Calzaghe will easily dominate him.
This win will legitimise my feelings of Calzaghe being a top 3 P4P fighter, something that you can't yet rank him as.
Good answer. Can't wait for the fight
Should be viewed as superior to Kostya Tszyu's legacy. Yes or no?:think
It's a good question as Kostya and Joe are my two favourite fighters from recent times.
Kostya was a great fighter,but honour where honour is due.If Joe beats Kessler in a convincing fashion he for sure should be viewed as the fighter who has achieved more in his pro career.
Harry
08-08-2007, 07:33 PM
Another stupidity advertising thread:-(
I would put Calzaghe ahead by a little bit 'when'/if he beats Kessler. As to how they rank at present, I'd agree with Amsterdam, they are pretty even to me; Tszyu has a bad loss in his prime but has strung together slightly better wins.
Kessler is in his prime and is a titlist at the weight, so it has the potential to be a big win for Joe. However, beating Kessler to me is not a great feat in and of itself: even at his best, Mikkel is very robotic and somewhat one dimensional, and I believe a prime Calzaghe would have an easier night than I'm predicting we'll see on November 3rd. The only thing that makes this fight interesting to me is the fact that Calzaghe is an older fighter now, which gives Kessler a realistic chance to become #1 at the weight.
Southpaw, with more handspeed, more angles, a better left hand than Kessler's right, equal power (look at their KO stats) and better footwork is going to have no issues with Kessler's jab/jab/jab/right/shuffleback/jab/jab/jab/right style.
Calzaghe could be 45 - as long as he was in shape, if Kessler brings his usual game fightnight, this is an easy fight for Calzaghe.
That right cross will rake Calzaghe quite a few times, he's always been susceptible to those (as are most southpaws). But yes he is the more complete fighter. We'll have to agree to disagree as to how a 45 year old Joe would fare though. :yep
Alo2006
08-08-2007, 10:31 PM
Don't you mean IF Calzaghe defeats Kessler.
Exactly.
tays001
08-08-2007, 10:49 PM
if jc beats kessler then b-hop then RJJ and then fights taylor at 168 i say he smashes kt legacy wise even if t2 out of the 4 are old
KO Boxing
08-08-2007, 11:19 PM
I agree with Amsterdam that at the moment Calzaghe isn't rated above Tszyu, in my personal opinion. Tszyu has beaten better opposition overall, and dominated his division in similar yet diffrent fashion (he cleaned his tough division out and became undisputed champion, Calzaghe defended a nothing title many times in a not-so-tough division). You can't look past Tszyu's amateur accomplishments when looking at his career, neither.
IF Calzaghe were to beat Kessler, it would certainly make it a lot easier to argue Calzaghe's legacy is greater than Tszyu's. But I think it's going to be a lot more difficult than some are thinking... As much as a 50/50 fight as can be (but to each his own).
Should be viewed as superior to Kostya Tszyu's legacy. Yes or no?:think
It's a good question as Kostya and Joe are my two favourite fighters from recent times.It'll be just a lil bit more than it was from beating the other hyped up job Lacy :yep
KO Boxing
08-08-2007, 11:27 PM
It'll be just a lil bit more than it was from beating the other hyped up job Lacy :yep
:huh
I thought you rated Kessler? He DID beat Mundine, although people here will have you believe he did it easier than he truly did.
EDIT: Or is this you trying to say people aren't going to rate Calzaghe cause they didn't AFTER he beat Lacy, who many were saying before the fight was going to KO Calzaghe? Cause many people before the Tyson-Lewis fight were saying the same, but that doesn't make Lewis's win any greater.
Sorry for misunderstanding you. Still haven't picked up on your humour I've noticed in the Aussie forum
:huh
I thought you rated Kessler? He DID beat Mundine, although people here will have you believe he did it easier than he truly did.I do rate Kessler but if JC beats him many ppl are gonna say he was Hyped up and I will be here shit stir that pt :yep
He beat Mundine of then but a rematch would be a closer encounter.
:huh
I thought you rated Kessler? He DID beat Mundine, although people here will have you believe he did it easier than he truly did.
EDIT: Or is this you trying to say people aren't going to rate Calzaghe cause they didn't AFTER he beat Lacy, who many were saying before the fight was going to KO Calzaghe? Cause many people before the Tyson-Lewis fight were saying the same, but that doesn't make Lewis's win any greater.
Sorry for misunderstanding you. Still haven't picked up on your humour I've noticed in the Aussie forumIm just trying to get the Danes riled up by saying he is a Hype job basically :D
I rate both JC and Kessler, both are good fighters.
KO Boxing
08-08-2007, 11:47 PM
Im just trying to get the Danes riled up by saying he is a Hype job basically :D
I rate both JC and Kessler, both are good fighters.
:good
Why stop at the Danes? Why not go for the Brits, too?
J_Roth
08-08-2007, 11:50 PM
I voted Tszyu. I should have voted Joe.
IrnBruMan
08-08-2007, 11:50 PM
Nah, Tszyu's legacy is better - he unified his division the hard way - one belt at a time - and fought consistently better opposition, and dispatched said opposition in exciting fashion.
He also suffered a confidence-shattering loss and bounced back to achieve all of the above, which I think is a tremendous feat in itself.
ripcity
08-09-2007, 12:11 AM
Should be viewed as superior to Kostya Tszyu's legacy. Yes or no?:think
It's a good question as Kostya and Joe are my two favourite fighters from recent times.
I have to ask why are you compareing boxers from completly difrent weight classes?
KO Boxing
08-09-2007, 12:16 AM
I get that the point of the poll is to determine Calzaghe's legacy if he were to beat Kessler, but judging from the poll you'd think that Calzaghe is leaps and bounds ahead of Tszyu... This is simply NOT the case. Tszyu was an awesome fighter, one of the very best ever at 140.
vBulletin® v3.8.0, Copyright ©2000-2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.