88 Tyson vs. 67 Ali, who wins?

[Canibus81]

I'd pick Tyson in this fight and I know lots of people are gonna disagree but here's my reasoning why.

Before anybody brings up Tyson worst performances, please note that he wasn't no where the same fighter he was when he left Rooney. You can clearly see it and he was more one dimensional later in his career, plus the disipline and inactivity eroded him more than he was.

Here's the reason why I pick Mike:

As you know Ali usually had problems with swarmers. Doug Jones, Joe Frazier, and Ken Norton all gave him problems. Good foot speed and a Jab would give Ali lots of problems and Tyson had both and was more skilled than Frazier, Jones, and Norton. People will say Ali wasn't in his prime when he fought Frazier, or Norton and this is true but the first Frazier fight was the best Ali ever got the rest of his career and Frazier beat him decisive. That was the best Frazier of course but Frazier didn't have one punch power like Tyson, a good jab like Tyson and a defense Like Tyson to get in on Taller opponents the way Mike did and cut the ring off before the taller fighter could anticipate. Frazier was a left hook guy and a good body puncher but tyson was more mutlidimensional than Frazier with more speed, physically stronger, and hit harder.

Ali was young when he fought Doug Jones and Jones was another swarmer(ali was still green but it answered some questions) and gave Ali one of his toughest fights and many thought Doug Jones beat him, I thought he edged him but it was close. One of the tendicies Doug Jones exposed was that Ali pulled straight back from punches and Frazier further exposed it. Ali had good footwork but didn't duck punches well. Pulling straight back from punches against an expolsive fighter Like a young Tyson spells danger because Tyson leaped at you and would eventually catch Ali with a left hook. The fight would look similiar to the Tyrell Biggs fight.

The fighters who beat Tyson(even though Tyson wasn't no where near his best when they did shoed what was the nessecary tools to have) had authoritive Jabs and they would circle Mike, something Ali never did. Ali had more of a flicking Jab, not authorative jab like Lewis, Hoyfield, and Douglas had. Another thing was Ali was too much of a head hunter and Dundee even admitted to that. He would be throwing a lot of head shots at Tyson and that you definetly couldn't do cause Tyson had really good headmovement. You have to try and go to Tyson's body, mix it up and use lots of uppercuts while circling and tieing him up and Ali wouldn't fight him like that. Tyson was also good at timing punches and if he got you hurt, forgot about it, cause he wasn't just a devasting puncher but one of the best finishers of all time. Larry Holmes found that out when he tried to recover against Tyson. Besides all of the fundamental flaws that Ali had the biggest thing would be he would fighting a guy who good foot speed, great timing, and a quick accurate Jab, something he never had to deal with and that would cause major problems along with him trying to time Tyson which would be very hard cause of Tyson's head movement and the fact the he would be punching down at him.

As good as Ali was, Tyson IMo would be the perfect opponent for him and would stop Ali in the later rounds. Ali would be fighting a combination of Frazier and Doug Jones and it would be too much for Muhammad. I see it being Biggs/Tyson all over again but a more competitive.

[Sweet Pea]

Since when were Doug Jones and Ken Norton swarmers?

[Canibus81]

Since when were Doug Jones and Ken Norton swarmers?

Doug Jones and Ken Norton both swarmed Ali and it was effective. Doug Jones could box but he was a good swarmer as well.

[Doppleganger]

Ali does, although I would say that Tyson has a better chance to stop an earlier version of Ali, though still highly unlikely in my eyes. I also think comparing Ali to Tyrell Biggs is gonna get you a lot of grief on this forum. :)

[Canibus81]

Ali does, although I would say that Tyson has a better chance to stop an earlier version of Ali, though still highly unlikely in my eyes. I also think comparing Ali to Tyrell Biggs is gonna get you a lot of grief on this forum. :)

His style was very similiar to Ali's. Biggis was big and very athletic and also taller than Ali with a longer reach. Lets not forget Biggs was superheavyweight Olympic gold medalist who beat Lennox Lewis. He already had more experience than a lot of the other heavys cause of his ameutuer credentials when he fought Tyson. He was never the same After Tyson beat him and even went into depression.

[apollack]

Here's why I will respectuflly disagree. You make some very good and rational points that Tyson was quick on his feet, good headmovement, cut fighters off well, had a huge left hook - the punch for which Ali was most susceptible.

However, all that said, Ali was faster, had better footwork, the better conditioning, the better chin, and the better heart. No matter how much Tyson might have possibly beat his ass early, no matter even if Ali got decked, he would get up, cover up, grab, take it, and then when Tyson got tired, Ali would pour it on Mike like he never saw in his career.

[JIm Broughton]

If Tyson takes on the Ali who fought before he won the title then Mike KO's him. Ali was a little green and would not be able to hold off Mike. The '67 version of Ali was physically bigger and at his peak. Even though Tyson would still give him problems, I think Ali takes it unless he goes in overconfident.

[Canibus81]

Here's why I will respectuflly disagree. You make some very good and rational points that Tyson was quick on his feet, good headmovement, cut fighters off well, had a huge left hook - the punch for which Ali was most susceptible.

However, all that said, Ali was faster, had better footwork, the better conditioning, the better chin, and the better heart. No matter how much Tyson might have possibly beat his ass early, no matter even if Ali got decked, he would get up, cover up, grab, take it, and then when Tyson got tired, Ali would pour it on Mike like he never saw in his career.

Ali never had to deal with a wirlwind swarm like Tyson would put on him if he hurt him. Sorry he didn't. Ali being faster than a young Tyson is debatable. And in this scenerio, you don't have to be faster, or you have to be is fast enough and Tyson surley was. And he didn't have a better chin. Tyson had one of the best chins in history and Ali never was taking consecutive big shots from big men like Douglas and Lewis and Ali always came in shape, Tyson didn't in his later career, which is why he got stopped in those fights. Tyson proved his chin when he took Razor Rudducks best shots who would Ko'ed any fighter with the shots he hit Tyson with and Tyson was conditioned for that fight and that wasn't Tyson at his best.

[Bokaj]

Doug Jones and Ken Norton both swarmed Ali and it was effective. Doug Jones could box but he was a good swarmer as well.

No. Jones countered Ali. Ali was the agressor for most of the fight. And Norton was really more of stalker than swarmer.

[Canibus81]

No. Jones countered Ali. Ali was the agressor for most of the fight. And Norton was really more of stalker than swarmer.

He countered Ali but he still swarmed him, he just did it spurts. And it was effective against Ali because of his lack of fundamentals. Tyson also was a good counter puncher but he did it lot more agressivley.

[Jazzo]

Ali with 13.4555667 seconds to go in round 11. No doubt.

He cuts Tyson up and Tyson hurts his shoulder, contributing to the stoppage.

Tyson is wobbled badly but only goes down from a push.

[newbridgeboxing]

Ali would take apart Tyson !! i dont think any heavyweight in history could beat an Ali of '67

[Silver]

tyson could certianly cause problems for ali. they are few fighters that can match talent with the likes of a prime ali, prime tyson is one of them. the way ali would pull back with his hands down could cause big problems against tyson. imo, ali most likely outpoints him but ali could very well have to pick himself off the canvas to do it.

[Taylor_brogdon]

I 100% agree with the thread maker. Tyson at his peak was nothing short of genius. Kevin Rooney would develop a full proof game plan with Tyson and Tyson would follow it to a T. Mike would end this fight, and end it without any questions.

[Bad_Intentions]

as much as i love tyson, ali beats him.

[fernando4cv3]

Lol this is a good one and im goin to have say the opposite of whats being. Le tme say that Ali has somethign over Tyson that cant be argued about. When Ali aged and he knew all that speed and power was slowly going he became a very smart fighter ala rumble in the jungle. Tyson never had that, he was physical all the way. Imo a 67 Ali would be destroyed by a 88 Tyson however a mid 1970's Ali would beat tyson because of Ali's matured mindset by then

[Bokaj]

He countered Ali but he still swarmed him, he just did it spurts. And it was effective against Ali because of his lack of fundamentals. Tyson also was a good counter puncher but he did it lot more agressivley.

Yes, he was a lot more aggressive than Jones. Ali was the agressor in that fight for the most part. Bad comparison.

Anyway, most guys stalked Ali in some way. You've just found the ones that was most succesful at it when Ali still was in decent shape. And then you throw in Jones, who was a completely different fighter than Tyson, for good meause, just to have someone Ali met when young. Bad analysis.

This 3 guys gave Tyson the most trouble before prison: Thomas, Tucker and Douglas. They were all more similar to Ali than Norton and Jones was to Tyson.

[abraq]

Thomas, Tucker and Douglas. They were all more similar to Ali than Norton and Jones was to Tyson.

Good observation. Of these three, Buster Douglas was the only one who fought Tyson without any inhibition. Pinklon Thomas was all psyched out and Tucker put a big "safety first" signboard on himself.

Coming to think of it, and it has been said many times before by others more knowledgeable than me, Douglas fought Tyson the way a prime pre-exile Ali would have.

In fact, Ali would be more uninhibited than Buster was. Also he would be faster - both feet and hand speed, would move more, have a much better sense of timing, have the better chin, more ring sense and generalship and more stamina. Douglas had the stronger jab but Ali's was arguably faster and sharper.

Moreover, Tyson wasn't a swarmer in the real sense of the term - like Frazier and Marciano were. Watch Tyson at his peak. He was a stalker who looked for an opening and mostly went in only when he saw one. At least, this was the strategy he used when he faced better opposition.

Having said the above, I would like to add that Tyson was absolutely lethal in his prime. Amongst all fighter he would have one of the best chance to beat a prime Ali. But IMHO, I feel that Ali would still be the favourite and I would pick him to win.

[Bokaj]

Good observation. Of these three, Buster Douglas was the only one who fought Tyson without any inhibition. Pinklon Thomas was all psyched out and Tucker put a big "safety first" signboard on himself.

Coming to think of it, and it has been said many times before by others more knowledgeable than me, Douglas fought Tyson the way a prime pre-exile Ali would have.

In fact, Ali would be more uninhibited than Buster was. Also he would be faster - both feet and hand speed, would move more, have a much better sense of timing, have the better chin, more ring sense and generalship and more stamina. Douglas had the stronger jab but Ali's was arguably faster and sharper.

Hey! That was Tyson "post Rooney". He was "no where near the Mega Tyson of 86-88" (for some reason).

[aj415]

Tyson's fragile psyche was tailor-made for the penultamut psychological warrior that is Ali.

Tyson will have lost this before setting foot in the ring.

[abraq]

Hey! That was Tyson "post Rooney". He was "no where near the Mega Tyson of 86-88" (for some reason).

I know. That's why I elaborated on some of the qualities Ali had over Douglas. If Douglas could so handily defeat a "post Rooney Tyson", a so much better version of Douglas would defeat a "mega Rooney Tyson".

Regards.

[Bokaj]

I know. That's why I elaborated on some of the qualities Ali had over Douglas. If Douglas could so handily defeat a "post Rooney Tyson", a so much better version of Douglas would defeat a "mega Rooney Tyson".

Regards.

Yeah, I know. I was a bit ironic with this "post Rooney"-thing, because it bugs me quite a lot. To believe he became a totally different fighter without Rooney in his corner - it doesn't impress me much.

[groove]

to beat Tyson you have to get him on the back foot like Buster did and Ali did to Liston at the end of round 1 and at the start of round 3. if you let Tyson come forward with no reply then he will have you - same with Liston or Foreman. Ali wouldn't let it happen. That's why he opened up quick in his fight with Foreman with big right hand leads to show him who's boss. Ali may do the same against Tyson.

[The Wanderer]

I've done very detailed posts in the past on why Ali would beat Tyson, so I'm going to keep it short this time.

Tyson comes out with the initial burst, Ali dances back, occasionally gets caught, but survives. Tyson begins to slow and then his laziness on the inside starts to undermine him and Ali switches up between dancing and peppering Tyson with jabs and crosses and tying Tyson up when they gets close.

Eventually either Ali wears him down for a TKO victory or gets the UD.

[Bokaj]

to beat Tyson you have to get him on the back foot like Buster did and Ali did to Liston at the end of round 1 and at the start of round 3. if you let Tyson come forward with no reply then he will have you - same with Liston or Foreman. Ali wouldn't let it happen. That's why he opened up quick in his fight with Foreman with big right hand leads to show him who's boss. Ali may do the same against Tyson.

Yeah, I think so too. Just about every time Ali met a fighter that was used to have his way in the ring he started throwing power shots early. Often lead rights. It didn't work in FOTC - he ended up punching himself out. But it was money against Liston and Foreman. You could see them both being somewhat befuddled by the hard rights Ali had the "audacity" to throw already in the first. I think Tyson would react along the same lines. He had a similar kind of bully mentality as Liston and Foreman. Frazier just didn't give a flying F. As long as his legs held him upright he would keep coming. Simple as that.

[The Predator]

Ali would take apart Tyson !! i dont think any heavyweight in history could beat an Ali of '67

I totally agree!
Ali would destroy Tyson and don´t forget that even if Tyson was fast in his hands Ali was faster and had longer reach, I see big trouble for Tyson in this one.
All the best
The Predator

[Jack Presscot]

I'd pick Tyson in this fight and I know lots of people are gonna disagree but here's my reasoning why.

Before anybody brings up Tyson worst performances, please note that he wasn't no where the same fighter he was when he left Rooney. You can clearly see it and he was more one dimensional later in his career, plus the disipline and inactivity eroded him more than he was.

Here's the reason why I pick Mike:

As you know Ali usually had problems with swarmers. Doug Jones, Joe Frazier, and Ken Norton all gave him problems. Good foot speed and a Jab would give Ali lots of problems and Tyson had both and was more skilled than Frazier, Jones, and Norton. People will say Ali wasn't in his prime when he fought Frazier, or Norton and this is true but the first Frazier fight was the best Ali ever got the rest of his career and Frazier beat him decisive. That was the best Frazier of course but Frazier didn't have one punch power like Tyson, a good jab like Tyson and a defense Like Tyson to get in on Taller opponents the way Mike did and cut the ring off before the taller fighter could anticipate. Frazier was a left hook guy and a good body puncher but tyson was more mutlidimensional than Frazier with more speed, physically stronger, and hit harder.

Ali was young when he fought Doug Jones and Jones was another swarmer(ali was still green but it answered some questions) and gave Ali one of his toughest fights and many thought Doug Jones beat him, I thought he edged him but it was close. One of the tendicies Doug Jones exposed was that Ali pulled straight back from punches and Frazier further exposed it. Ali had good footwork but didn't duck punches well. Pulling straight back from punches against an expolsive fighter Like a young Tyson spells danger because Tyson leaped at you and would eventually catch Ali with a left hook. The fight would look similiar to the Tyrell Biggs fight.

The fighters who beat Tyson(even though Tyson wasn't no where near his best when they did shoed what was the nessecary tools to have) had authoritive Jabs and they would circle Mike, something Ali never did. Ali had more of a flicking Jab, not authorative jab like Lewis, Hoyfield, and Douglas had. Another thing was Ali was too much of a head hunter and Dundee even admitted to that. He would be throwing a lot of head shots at Tyson and that you definetly couldn't do cause Tyson had really good headmovement. You have to try and go to Tyson's body, mix it up and use lots of uppercuts while circling and tieing him up and Ali wouldn't fight him like that. Tyson was also good at timing punches and if he got you hurt, forgot about it, cause he wasn't just a devasting puncher but one of the best finishers of all time. Larry Holmes found that out when he tried to recover against Tyson. Besides all of the fundamental flaws that Ali had the biggest thing would be he would fighting a guy who good foot speed, great timing, and a quick accurate Jab, something he never had to deal with and that would cause major problems along with him trying to time Tyson which would be very hard cause of Tyson's head movement and the fact the he would be punching down at him.

As good as Ali was, Tyson IMo would be the perfect opponent for him and would stop Ali in the later rounds. Ali would be fighting a combination of Frazier and Doug Jones and it would be too much for Muhammad. I see it being Biggs/Tyson all over again but a more competitive.You need to get off of Crystal Meth. That shit is nasty, it is going to rot all your fucking teeth, rot the inside of your lungs, and turn you into an even bigger Retard than you already are. Are you actually talking about fucking Tyrell Biggs in the same breath when mentioning ALI???? Tyrell Biggs isnt fit to work as a janitor at the Ali Center in Louisville.

Your boy Tyson was pretty awesome in his time. The Tyson that destroyed Trevor Berbick and Michael Spinks was unstoppable and was an Icon, in his own time. Lightning fast, and under Rooney's tutelage, used lots of head movement. And had dynamite in both fists. What was his Achille's Heel?

His fragile psyche. And what was Ali? The complete opposite. Ali truly believed in himself and his own abilities, and Tyson was full of self doubt, and self loathing. He was and remains, manic depressive.

Can you imagine? Ali and Tyson, mid ring, round 5 and Ali starts telling him.....

"Nobody likes you Mike. They think you are an ugly man. They all love me, Mike"

Tyson bullrushes him, and throws a lightning combo, and Ali catches him in a clinch

"Is that all you got Mike? I thought they said you could hit"

"Robin only loves you for your money. She was winking at me a while ago"

Not even yo mama loves you Mike. My mama loves me....why does yo' mama hate you Mike? Like all the rest?

Mike Tyson, by the mid rounds would be ready to quit in the ring, and have a fucking emotional meltdown, live on SET PPV.

[Hank]

Tyson. He was fast, had to much head movement and power, he's ko Ali, at any time in Ali's carreer.

[aj415]

You need to get off of Crystal Meth. That shit is nasty, it is going to rot all your fucking teeth, rot the inside of your lungs, and turn you into an even bigger Retard than you already are. Are you actually talking about fucking Tyrell Biggs in the same breath when mentioning ALI???? Tyrell Biggs isnt fit to work as a janitor at the Ali Center in Louisville.

Your boy Tyson was pretty awesome in his time. The Tyson that destroyed Trevor Berbick and Michael Spinks was unstoppable and was an Icon, in his own time. Lightning fast, and under Rooney's tutelage, used lots of head movement. And had dynamite in both fists. What was his Achille's Heel?

His fragile psyche. And what was Ali? The complete opposite. Ali truly believed in himself and his own abilities, and Tyson was full of self doubt, and self loathing. He was and remains, manic depressive.

Can you imagine? Ali and Tyson, mid ring, round 5 and Ali starts telling him.....

"Nobody likes you Mike. They think you are an ugly man. They all love me, Mike"

Tyson bullrushes him, and throws a lightning combo, and Ali catches him in a clinch

"Is that all you got Mike? I thought they said you could hit"

"Robin only loves you for your money. She was winking at me a while ago"

Not even yo mama loves you Mike. My mama loves me....why does yo' mama hate you Mike? Like all the rest?

Mike Tyson, by the mid rounds would be ready to quit in the ring, and have a fucking emotional meltdown, live on SET PPV.

Just imagine the press conferences. Ali would make Mike feel like a child. His high lispy voice, and his unconfrontational demeanor at that time would be cannon-fodder for The Greatest. Tyson would be buffaloed before he gets in the ring, with an outcome reminscent of the Lewis fight.

[fists of fury]

Yeah, I know. I was a bit ironic with this "post Rooney"-thing, because it bugs me quite a lot. To believe he became a totally different fighter without Rooney in his corner - it doesn't impress me much.

It's true, whether it impresses you or not. Rooney was the only guy Tyson ever listened to. They had a rapport going between rounds. There was a trust between them. Remember, this was Team Tyson, as they liked to call themselves.
Look at Tyson with Giachetti or anyone else - he didn't pay them no nevermind. Richie may as well have been talking to walls.
Essentially Tyson had no direction and no gameplan without Rooney because he didn't listen to the other guys.
Maybe he had no confidence in Giachetti, who knows? But in any event Tyson was without question a different, more one-dimensional fighter without Rooney.
The corner can make a huge difference in a fight, and to a fighter.

Even Ali would have picked up an early loss (against Liston) when he was blinded and panicked and wanted his gloves cut off to show that 'wrongdoing' was being done.
If Dundee had not pushed him out for the 5th round, what would have happened?

If you're going to take the best version of Tyson, then that means having Rooney in his corner.
People don't talk about John Davenport era Lennox Lewis, or Pepe Correa era Lennox Lewis; they usually talk about Manny Steward era Lewis, because he became a different (and better) fighter with Steward. His style and mentality changed. Same with Wlad Klitschko, same with a lot of other guys.
Why should Tyson be an exception? :huh

[fists of fury]

You need to get off of Crystal Meth. That shit is nasty, it is going to rot all your fucking teeth, rot the inside of your lungs, and turn you into an even bigger Retard than you already are. Are you actually talking about fucking Tyrell Biggs in the same breath when mentioning ALI???? Tyrell Biggs isnt fit to work as a janitor at the Ali Center in Louisville.

Your boy Tyson was pretty awesome in his time. The Tyson that destroyed Trevor Berbick and Michael Spinks was unstoppable and was an Icon, in his own time. Lightning fast, and under Rooney's tutelage, used lots of head movement. And had dynamite in both fists. What was his Achille's Heel?

His fragile psyche. And what was Ali? The complete opposite. Ali truly believed in himself and his own abilities, and Tyson was full of self doubt, and self loathing. He was and remains, manic depressive.

Can you imagine? Ali and Tyson, mid ring, round 5 and Ali starts telling him.....

"Nobody likes you Mike. They think you are an ugly man. They all love me, Mike"

Tyson bullrushes him, and throws a lightning combo, and Ali catches him in a clinch

"Is that all you got Mike? I thought they said you could hit"

"Robin only loves you for your money. She was winking at me a while ago"

Not even yo mama loves you Mike. My mama loves me....why does yo' mama hate you Mike? Like all the rest?

Mike Tyson, by the mid rounds would be ready to quit in the ring, and have a fucking emotional meltdown, live on SET PPV.

I quite enjoyed that. :D

An exaggeration yes, but this basically echoes how I feel. Ali was a master at the mind games. I think he'd take Mike to places he'd rather not go.

[Bokaj]

It's true, whether it impresses you or not. Rooney was the only guy Tyson ever listened to. They had a rapport going between rounds. There was a trust between them. Remember, this was Team Tyson, as they liked to call themselves.
Look at Tyson with Giachetti or anyone else - he didn't pay them no nevermind. Richie may as well have been talking to walls.
Essentially Tyson had no direction and no gameplan without Rooney because he didn't listen to the other guys.
Maybe he had no confidence in Giachetti, who knows? But in any event Tyson was without question a different, more one-dimensional fighter without Rooney.
The corner can make a huge difference in a fight, and to a fighter.

Even Ali would have picked up an early loss (against Liston) when he was blinded and panicked and wanted his gloves cut off to show that 'wrongdoing' was being done.
If Dundee had not pushed him out for the 5th round, what would have happened?

If you're going to take the best version of Tyson, then that means having Rooney in his corner.
People don't talk about John Davenport era Lennox Lewis, or Pepe Correa era Lennox Lewis; they usually talk about Manny Steward era Lewis, because he became a different (and better) fighter with Steward. His style and mentality changed. Same with Wlad Klitschko, same with a lot of other guys.
Why should Tyson be an exception? :huh

Two things:

1. Yes, in critical, decisive moments your cornerman can make a difference. But that's not what we talking about here, we're talking about the fighter as a whole.

2. You can't compare with Lewis before Steward. Because Tyson had had Rooney for several years and been taught by him, and all of a sudden he forgets everything? If Steward and Lewis had parted way in the early 2000's I don't think it would have made any real difference. And the Rooney-excuse is not concerning losses in tight contests against very tough opponents, it's primarily used for Tyson getting a pasting from journeyman.

[fists of fury]

Two things:

1. Yes, in critical, decisive moments your cornerman can make a difference. But that's not what we talking about here, we're talking about the fighter as a whole.

2. You can't compare with Lewis before Steward. Because Tyson had had Rooney for several years and been taught by him, and all of a sudden he forgets everything? If Steward and Lewis had parted way in the early 2000's I don't think it would have made any real difference. And the Rooney-excuse is not concerning losses in tight contests against very tough opponents, it's primarily used for Tyson getting a pasting from journeyman.

1. They make a difference, period. I think you're underestimating the value of a good cornerman.

2. Look at it like this: A football team plays a certain way under one coach for years and years. Another guy comes in and suddenly they play differently. Same team, but a different coach.
It's the same way with fighters.

We can speculate on Steward, but the point remains that he fought differently under Correa and Davenport than he did under Steward. That's a fact, and it reinforces what I said earlier: trainers have their own ideas about doing things, and what they want their fighters to do.

The fact is that without Rooney, Tyson didn't have a gameplan, or one that he followed. He stopped moving his head, stopped setting up his punches. His combinations were mostly gone.
Refer to any magazine from the period and you will see everyone was saying that. (Better yet, just watch post Rooney fights.)

[True Writer]

I think I'd pick a young hungry Tyson. His power and hand speed where amazing, if Henry Cooper could pretty much KO Ali then Tyson could have knocked his head off.

[196osh]

I agree with Presscot.

Ali would have beat Tyson before they ever got in the ring.

[Jbuz]

An absolute peak Tyson beats any version of Ali pre-1964 or post-exile IMO. That's how highly I rate Tyson head-to-head. However, a peak Ali takes Mike, and possibly even stops him over 15. That's how highly I rate a peak Ali. That's not to say Tyson is in any way inferior to Terrell for example, who lasted the distance against a peak Ali (albeit, in one of the most one-sided title fights you'll ever see, and Ali probably carried him), it's just that Tyson's come-forward style would work against him in the later rounds when his upperbody movement slowed, and he wasn't the toughest fighter mentally.

In 1967, he had some pretty good power, his body had filled out, his speed was at it's peak, and he was just simply breathtaking to watch. That version of Ali beats every other heavyweight who has ever lived.

[Bokaj]

2. Look at it like this: A football team plays a certain way under one coach for years and years. Another guy comes in and suddenly they play differently. Same team, but a different coach.
It's the same way with fighters.

No, it's not. A football team is about that how a large number of individuals relate to each other on the field more than their own technical characteristics.

A better comparison would be how mature players change under different trainers. They mostly don't. Maradona was Maradona, no matter the trainer, same with Ronaldo, Ronaldinho etc. etc.

We can speculate on Steward, but the point remains that he fought differently under Correa and Davenport than he did under Steward. That's a fact, and it reinforces what I said earlier: trainers have their own ideas about doing things, and what they want their fighters to do.

The fact is that without Rooney, Tyson didn't have a gameplan, or one that he followed. He stopped moving his head, stopped setting up his punches. His combinations were mostly gone.
Refer to any magazine from the period and you will see everyone was saying that. (Better yet, just watch post Rooney fights.)

I have of course. And yes, he seemed a bit more lazy, but he wasn't a different fighter. I think he still had head movement and good combos at times.

Do you mean that his new trainers told him to do away with them? That they tried to undo evrything Rooney taught him? Rather I think it was just a case that he started to believe he only had to show up to win. But that seems pretty natutal for someone who's that dominant.

He seemed a bit less sharp and focussed, but I don't think he changed fundamentally as a fighter. He himself named the fight against Stewart as one of his best (even though I personally disagree) and that was post Rooney.

[fists of fury]

No, it's not. A football team is about that how a large number of individuals relate to each other on the field more than their own technical characteristics.

A better comparison would be how mature players change under different trainers. They mostly don't. Maradona was Maradona, no matter the trainer, same with Ronaldo, Ronaldinho etc. etc.


Well, fair enough. But still don't you think that different trainers bring out different styles or attributes of a fighter, at least occasionally?


I have of course. And yes, he seemed a bit more lazy, but he wasn't a different fighter. I think he still had head movement and good combos at times.

"At times" being the key words here. Yes at times Tyson showed flashes of his old self, but those were mostly fleeting. He had the speed and power as before, but the hallmarks of his style, the explosiveness, combinations and head movement, were downgraded from before.


Do you mean that his new trainers told him to do away with them? That they tried to undo evrything Rooney taught him? Rather I think it was just a case that he started to believe he only had to show up to win. But that seems pretty natutal for someone who's that dominant.


What I'm saying (and have been saying since the start) is that Tyson didn't listen to Giachetti or anyone else other than Rooney. That's been the crux of my argument all along.
Rooney was the last link to Cus and the guy that had trained Tyson since the start of his pro career, so they had formed a very close bond, until Tyson pissed the relationship down the toilet.
Giachetti was obviously a good trainer, but no matter how good he was, if the fighter wasn't listening to him, he could have had me in the corner for all the difference it would have made.

Why didn't Tyson listen to instructions?
I believe it was partly because he was in that "I hate the world" phase of his life and was distrustful and resentful of pretty much everyone.
He also was trying too hard to be "bad" again and eschewed the finer points of his game in lieu of a more direct, simplistic approach of just trying to bomb the other guy out with one shot.
Of course, he also became notorious for skipping training sessions (or not completing them) during this time, so that's another factor. It all boils down to the situation where his new trainers were not in control of Tyson. He was the boss and they towed the line, not the other way round.


He seemed a bit less sharp and focussed, but I don't think he changed fundamentally as a fighter. He himself named the fight against Stewart as one of his best (even though I personally disagree) and that was post Rooney.

Don't get me wrong, it's not like Tyson suddenly fell apart at the seams or anything. Nothing of the sort. He at worst was still the 2nd best fighter around prior to his incarceration. He was still in his physical prime and had enough meanness and desire to get the job done against most guys, but there were more than a few mutterings from those "in the know" that he wasn't vintage Tyson anymore.
Most blamed it on him forsaking the hallmarks of his style, others simply thought his skills were slowly eroding.

The thing is, most of his fights ended quickly so everything looked rosy. A lack of proper training, a lack of a decent fight plan or of neglecting certain skills doesn't usually manifest itself until after a few rounds, and knocking out guys in one or two rounds didn't give skeptics much to go on.

[Bokaj]

The thing is, most of his fights ended quickly so everything looked rosy. A lack of proper training, a lack of a decent fight plan or of neglecting certain skills doesn't usually manifest itself until after a few rounds, and knocking out guys in one or two rounds didn't give skeptics much to go on.

Ok. It seems we're more or less on the same page here. I agree that Tyson was somewhat less formidable after demolishing Spinks. He probably felt that he had nothing left to prove. And I do think that his axing of Rooney was in a way a bi-product of this. He probably didn't want anyone nagging at him and telling him to do this or that. He felt himself too big for that.

But Frazier was further removed from his very best against Foreman than Tyson was against Douglas IMO. And the loss to Foreman is often used as an example of how Frazier would fare against this or that fighter, so Tyson's loss to Douglas could very well be used similarily.

[Hank]

A press conference would not have lasted, Tyson would do what no one else did--attack Ali. He's beat Ali in ring too.

[Silver]

Just imagine the press conferences. Ali would make Mike feel like a child. His high lispy voice, and his unconfrontational demeanor at that time would be cannon-fodder for The Greatest. Tyson would be buffaloed before he gets in the ring, with an outcome reminscent of the Lewis fight.you dont think tyson would find a way to make ali uncomfortable was well. he bit a man on the leg. although it didnt help in the fight.

[The Wanderer]

A press conference would not have lasted, Tyson would do what no one else did--attack Ali. He's beat Ali in ring too.

Joe Frazier did attack Ali in a get together before their second fight. And lost in the ring, just like Tyson would. (Except Tyson probably wouldn't have done as well).

[martin0792]

Ali was ko'd by a Joe Frazier who had a similar style to Mike Tyson. Tyson in the 80's was unstoppable and I believe he let his personal life affect his legacy.

Tyson by ko in the middle half of the fight.

[The Wanderer]

Ali was ko'd by a Joe Frazier who had a similar style to Mike Tyson. Tyson in the 80's was unstoppable and I believe he let his personal life affect his legacy.

Tyson by ko in the middle half of the fight.

Ali was never knocked out.

[Jbuz]

Ali was ko'd by a Joe Frazier who had a similar style to Mike Tyson. Tyson in the 80's was unstoppable and I believe he let his personal life affect his legacy.

Tyson by ko in the middle half of the fight.

So a peak Tyson couldn't stop the likes of Tucker and Smith (who had been stopped before and was KO'd not long after), but he would knock out a man who was never knocked out, had the best recuperative powers of any HW, an iron jaw and a style that made him extremely hard to hit?

Hmmm..

[Hank]

Joe Frazier did attack Ali in a get together before their second fight. And lost in the ring, just like Tyson would. (Except Tyson probably wouldn't have done as well).

That was when he called Frazier ignorant, and it was said to be staged to promote fight. If it was for real, it was pretty pathetic.

[fists of fury]

But Frazier was further removed from his very best against Foreman than Tyson was against Douglas IMO. And the loss to Foreman is often used as an example of how Frazier would fare against this or that fighter, so Tyson's loss to Douglas could very well be used similarily.

Well it would depend on the context I think. People have used the Douglas matchup as some sort of measuring stick in the past, and if it's a fair and reasonable post that's fine by me.

[fists of fury]

Joe Frazier did attack Ali in a get together before their second fight. And lost in the ring, just like Tyson would. (Except Tyson probably wouldn't have done as well).

Joe actually got angry with Ali's brother. It looked like something was going to kick off between them when Ali, probably sensing this, in a playful way grabbed Frazier and pulled him down. That's when the ruckus really started.

[sauhund II]

So a peak Tyson couldn't stop the likes of Tucker and Smith (who had been stopped before and was KO'd not long after), but he would knock out a man who was never knocked out, had the best recuperative powers of any HW, an iron jaw and a style that made him extremely hard to hit?

Hmmm..
Tucker had never been stopped until he was stone old, many, many moons after the Tyson fight. His chin was always stellar plus he was hard to hit clean. He could not handle Tyson speed or his very underrated boxing ability, that is the reason why he lost, it was almost a complete shutout. Boneclutcher came simply to survive and refused to let his hands go. Another shut out.
If both man would have fought a more agressive fight it stands to reason that at least one of them would have not made the distance.

BTW, there were no "weak" mental moments publized in the 80's . All that stuff was totally overblown (but some of it was justified) when he got out of prison and Teddy Atlas made a career out of it. If Tyson would have died in the car wreck when he was with Givens nobody in their right mind would have called him weak or another figher could psyche him out. As a matter of fact, he was highly looked up on including commercial America for his professional attitude before fights with almost nil trash talking . He did run his mouth after some fights but that was about it.

[rickettsvl]

Hello everybody, I'm a big fan of both Tyson and Ali. However in 1988 it took a peak Tyson 4 rds to finish off a 37 year old Larry Holmes coming off of a near 3 yr layoff. But some how we are supposed to believe Tyson who took so long to beat and older Holmes is suppose to easliy beat a much younger and prime Ali. Ali in 67 was much faster plus had far superior skills then a 37yrs Holmes, whom Tyson took 4rds to beat. Tyson fans please come up with a credible senario to explain how someone that takes 4 rds to beat an old Holmes, can beat a much better version of the same fighter. Young Ali had similar skills to Holmes but was much faster, better chin, similar reach.

[Muchmoore]

Hello everybody, I'm a big fan of both Tyson and Ali. However in 1988 it took a peak Tyson 4 rds to finish off a 37 year old Larry Holmes coming off of a near 3 yr layoff. But some how we are supposed to believe Tyson who took so long to beat and older Holmes is suppose to easliy beat a much younger and prime Ali. Ali in 67 was much faster plus had far superior skills then a 37yrs Holmes, whom Tyson took 4rds to beat. Tyson fans please come up with a credible senario to explain how someone that takes 4 rds to beat an old Holmes, can beat a much better version of the same fighter. Young Ali had similar skills to Holmes but was much faster, better chin, similar reach.

Umm Newsflash but 4 rounds isn't exactly a long fight :lol:

[Silver]

Hello everybody, I'm a big fan of both Tyson and Ali. However in 1988 it took a peak Tyson 4 rds to finish off a 37 year old Larry Holmes coming off of a near 3 yr layoff. But some how we are supposed to believe Tyson who took so long to beat and older Holmes is suppose to easliy beat a much younger and prime Ali. Ali in 67 was much faster plus had far superior skills then a 37yrs Holmes, whom Tyson took 4rds to beat. Tyson fans please come up with a credible senario to explain how someone that takes 4 rds to beat an old Holmes, can beat a much better version of the same fighter. Young Ali had similar skills to Holmes but was much faster, better chin, similar reach.you act like 4 rds is a long fight. and holmes went on to give a holyfield a tougher fight then expected and beat a young mercer. ali-homes is not a good example here.

[Canibus81]

It's true, whether it impresses you or not. Rooney was the only guy Tyson ever listened to. They had a rapport going between rounds. There was a trust between them. Remember, this was Team Tyson, as they liked to call themselves.
Look at Tyson with Giachetti or anyone else - he didn't pay them no nevermind. Richie may as well have been talking to walls.
Essentially Tyson had no direction and no gameplan without Rooney because he didn't listen to the other guys.
Maybe he had no confidence in Giachetti, who knows? But in any event Tyson was without question a different, more one-dimensional fighter without Rooney.
The corner can make a huge difference in a fight, and to a fighter.

Even Ali would have picked up an early loss (against Liston) when he was blinded and panicked and wanted his gloves cut off to show that 'wrongdoing' was being done.
If Dundee had not pushed him out for the 5th round, what would have happened?

If you're going to take the best version of Tyson, then that means having Rooney in his corner.
People don't talk about John Davenport era Lennox Lewis, or Pepe Correa era Lennox Lewis; they usually talk about Manny Steward era Lewis, because he became a different (and better) fighter with Steward. His style and mentality changed. Same with Wlad Klitschko, same with a lot of other guys.
Why should Tyson be an exception? :huh

Yupand people have the tendecy to do that.

[Jbuz]

Tucker had never been stopped until he was stone old, many, many moons after the Tyson fight. His chin was always stellar plus he was hard to hit clean. He could not handle Tyson speed or his very underrated boxing ability, that is the reason why he lost, it was almost a complete shutout. Boneclutcher came simply to survive and refused to let his hands go. Another shut out.
If both man would have fought a more agressive fight it stands to reason that at least one of them would have not made the distance.



This is comedy. I'm well aware of Tucker's credentials, I was merely pointing out that Tucker is nowhere near the fighter Ali was. You talk about "IF" they fought more aggressively, they might not have lasted the distance. Are you suggesting that Ali would fight aggressively, on the front foot even? Please. Ali was always on the backfoot because that's where he did his best work. But please, remind me, how is Tyson going stop a man who was never stopped, not even when he was an immobile fossil with Parkinsons (his corner did stop it though), a man with a granite chin, superior recuperative powers, a very defensive (albeit unconventional) style and simply a far better fighter than anyone he faced? Some people are hilarious.

[sauhund II]

This is comedy. I'm well aware of Tucker's credentials, I was merely pointing out that Tucker is nowhere near the fighter Ali was. You talk about "IF" they fought more aggressively, they might not have lasted the distance. Are you suggesting that Ali would fight aggressively, on the front foot even? Please. Ali was always on the backfoot because that's where he did his best work. But please, remind me, how is Tyson going stop a man who was never stopped, not even when he was an immobile fossil with Parkinsons (his corner did stop it though), a man with a granite chin, superior recuperative powers, a very defensive (albeit unconventional) style and simply a far better fighter than anyone he faced? Some people are hilarious.
Where did I ever say that Tyson stops Ali ? Or that he would win ? Or the other way around ?

Tyson could be bothered by a great jab thrown by a tall guy with movement and Ali was always a sucker for the left hook. Tyson sometimes could be a sucker for the uppercut coming in but he was also never down from one shot from a 185 pound guy. Pure talent they are about even and it will come down to who executes his gameplan better.

Win or loose if those two would have ever met in their absolute primes both of them would have the fight of their lives on hand.

Now as a you claimed " a simply far better fighter than anyone faced " has me puzzled. He did loose when he still had gas in the tank, I am not talking at the tailend of his career and he also got a boatfull of very questionable gift decisions.

However, now its time for you to pop in Wil Smith's Ali flick to make yourself feel better .

[Bill Butcher]

This is one of those historical time machine must see fights, right up there with Ali/Marciano & Robinson/Leonard.

Ive always said that the prime 80s version of Tyson would have the best chance at beating the prime 60s Ali...... in saying that, my prediction has always been a highly competitive pts win for Ali.

I feel his long jab & fast lateral movement would have Mike chasing him for long periods & when Tyson does get close to him I feel Ali`s chin holds up.
I see Ali`s punches hurting Tyson every now & then just enough for Ali to unleash a big point scoring flurry but prime Mike`s head clears instantly & he`s back on Ali`s ass once again landing good shots but missing & tiring too. I feel Ali will be the stronger man in the last 3rd tho Tyson will be far from spent & in the fight til the very last bell.

Ali W12 Tyson (7-5)
or
Ali W15 Tyson (9-6)


Botswana :smoke

[Bokaj]

and Ali was always a sucker for the left hook.

Sure, but a bit too much is made out of that. Liston and Patterson both had great left hooks (especially Patterson) and neither tagged Ali with it. So it's not like he was a sucker for everyone with a nice left hook. Patterson's was arguably faster than Tyson's and he had a better reach. Didn't help him any, and he had 5 rounds to land it in before his back have out. Actually, he pulled his back when he missed by a mile with his hook.

[True Writer]

A lot of people seem to be comparing Tyson with Frazier or Liston. But neither of those 2 where in Mikes league. There was never before nor since been a fighter like Tyson. He was a tremendous puncher with either hand, quick hands and feet and an all round tremendous physical fighter. Given that Frazier & Norton had Ali's number, it is fair to say Tyson would have probably done a whole lot better given his natural advantages over them. I'd say that Tyson ko's Ali in his prime.

People forget how destructive he was, no other fighter ever looked so invincible in their prime. Its amazing to watch a peak Tyson.

[Bokaj]

A lot of people seem to be comparing Tyson with Frazier or Liston. But neither of those 2 where in Mikes league. There was never before nor since been a fighter like Tyson. He was a tremendous puncher with either hand, quick hands and feet and an all round tremendous physical fighter. Given that Frazier & Norton had Ali's number, it is fair to say Tyson would have probably done a whole lot better given his natural advantages over them. I'd say that Tyson ko's Ali in his prime.

People forget how destructive he was, no other fighter ever looked so invincible in their prime. Its amazing to watch a peak Tyson.

And what do you make of both Douglas and Holyfield beating Tyson convincingly?

Douglas thorougly outclassed Tyson. The only time that happened to Ali was when he was 38, had Parkinson's, was fucked up by meds, made a comeback after being away for 2 years and fought a prime Holmes.

Don't build your case for Tyson on who gave him respective Ali trouble, because it just doesn't hold water.

[groove]

Douglas had the correct attitude cuz of his mother dying. He dedicated that fight to her and was not going to lose no matter what. pity many of the others that fought Tyson never had the same mentality and never let him dictate the fight one sided. big-pay-check is all they wanted - Spinks is the prime example. Bruno showed a glimpse in the first then he was on survival negative fighting mode. to beat those fighters you gotta dictate them. Ali was the master of doing that. Tyson would be the one intimidated and lose by late stoppage. Close fight for the first 4 rounds then it's peak Ali's fight.

[abraq]

A lot of people seem to be comparing Tyson with Frazier or Liston. But neither of those 2 where in Mikes league. There was never before nor since been a fighter like Tyson. He was a tremendous puncher with either hand, quick hands and feet and an all round tremendous physical fighter. Given that Frazier & Norton had Ali's number, it is fair to say Tyson would have probably done a whole lot better given his natural advantages over them. I'd say that Tyson ko's Ali in his prime.

People forget how destructive he was, no other fighter ever looked so invincible in their prime. Its amazing to watch a peak Tyson.

And don't forget that nobody ever ko'd Ali. Ah, Holmes, you might say. But Bokaj has already gone into that.

And a prime Ali looked just as invincible as a prime Tyson, though Ali's fights took a little longer to end. But that's easily explained on attitude and style.

And a peak Ali was even more amazing to watch than a peak Tyson.

[abraq]

you act like 4 rds is a long fight. and holmes went on to give a holyfield a tougher fight then expected and beat a young mercer. ali-homes is not a good example here.

And Holyfield went on to beat Tyson twice. So where does that get us?

And don't forget that Holmes went straight into the Tyson fight after almost two years of inactivity whereas he got in 5 fights over the course of 10 months before facing Mercer and then Holyfield.

[abraq]

Hello everybody, I'm a big fan of both Tyson and Ali. However in 1988 it took a peak Tyson 4 rds to finish off a 37 year old Larry Holmes coming off of a near 3 yr layoff. But some how we are supposed to believe Tyson who took so long to beat and older Holmes is suppose to easliy beat a much younger and prime Ali. Ali in 67 was much faster plus had far superior skills then a 37yrs Holmes, whom Tyson took 4rds to beat. Tyson fans please come up with a credible senario to explain how someone that takes 4 rds to beat an old Holmes, can beat a much better version of the same fighter. Young Ali had similar skills to Holmes but was much faster, better chin, similar reach.

Good observation from a first timer.

Welcome.