Henry Armstrong

[Manassa]

I feel I have been doing Henry Armstrong a great injustice by picking too many fighters to beat him. I say we turn this thread into a bit of a tribute:

The man was a top class athlete:

[Only registered and activated users can see links](jumping%20rope)b.JPG

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Here is an interesting comment by Armstrong, speaking of his fight with Ray Robinson:

"I almost knocked Ray out. He kept throwing those bolo punches at me. Well, I'd mastered how to defend myself against bolos from Ceferino Garcia. Ray threw one to many and I hit him with a right hand that sent him across the ring. But the bell saved him and he ran from me the rest of the fight. I couldn't catch him. I kept taunting him, 'Come on in and fight.' He just kept shaking his head and running like a scared rabbit."

Armstrong could dish it out...

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

... And he could take it, too:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

I always thought Henry Armstrong looked really mean...

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

... And his opponents thought so too:

"Petey Sarron, featherweight champion of the world, his face an ashen white, an empty ache in the pit of his stomach, squirmed in his seat and choked as he watched Henry Armstrong, the chocolate lancer, hammer Baby Arizmendi into the most brutal, ruthless defeat of his brilliant 11-year stretch of ring warfare last night at Wrigley Field."


"Paling perceptibly as he blinked with frightened eyes that saw Armstrong, the infernal machine, smoke the idol of Mexico out of the ring with burning, searing leather to take every one of the 10 rounds and with it recognition in California as the world's featherweight champion, Sarron aptly expressed the sentiments of the 16,000 hysterical, stunned spectators when he said: "I'm glad I'm not the one in there with Armstrong tonight."

In this thread, talk about Henry Armstrong.

[jyuza]

Someone in the forum has a beautiful poster of Henry, it would be great if he could post it.

Of course Henry is one of the best ever. A true fighting machine !

One of my favorite fighter, definitely.

[Manassa]

And mine. I find Armstrong's 59-1-1 (51) streak to be the greatest run of all time.

[TBooze]

And that is why Armstrong was the second finest fighter ever, only surpassed by someone as brilliant as Robinson.

[janitor]

There has never been a fighter like Armstrong before and there probably never will be again.

[Manassa]

The 3 belts in 3 weight classes simultaneously is something else. Who would you say are his top wins and do they compare to other fighters top wins?

Armstrong's top wins, while great, are not on the same level of Ezzard Charles', for instance. But what really does it is Armstrong's consistency during a certain period where he went 59-1-1 (both the loss and draw being very controversial), scoring 51 knockouts, over three original weight classes, beating six Hall of Famers. It's incredible. Though only a lightweight, Armstrong holds the record for welterweight title defenses!

It's a common misconception that Armstrong was finished after he lost his titles, but in reality, he was always in the picture; though Armstrong slowed down quickly, he still managed to beat top quality fighters. He trashed Hall of Famers Fritzie Zivic, Lew Jenkins (for a second time) and Sammy Angott and also beat the excellent Willie Joyce, among others, such as former champion Tippy Larkin who he knocked out with a single punch. The massive hitting Al Davis had his teeth busted. Contender Ralph Zanelli was hammered twice.

Armstrong was pretty formidable before his famous peak run as well, where he beat a couple more Hall of Famers and several contenders such as Mike Belloise and Juan Zurita.

[Manassa]

So basically he had a great 3 year run and otherwise was pretty good but not at the top? And you consider him the #1 fighter of all time for that?

I need more consistency. Robinson and Greb for sure rank above him for me. I am constantly revising my top fighters of all time, so I'll have to look deeper into this situation.

With Armstrong, I take his quality over the quantity of Greb and Robinson. He was good at the start of his career and very good at the end - but in the middle, he was phenomenal.

His 59-1-1 could easily be changed to 61-0-0 with no complaints; he should have beaten Lou Ambers for the second time and won a portion of the middleweight crown off Ceferino Garcia.

During this period, Armstrong knocked out 51 of his opponents. 51! That's the same as what Joe Louis racked up in the best part of his career (60-1 (51) before the comeback), except Hank achieved it over better opposition:

It may take some time to comprehend that this run took place over three original weight divisions. And Armstrong was only a lightweight when he was breaking that welterweight defenses record. He knocked out fourteen of these challengers. At one point, Armstrong knocked out twenty seven men in a row; the third highest consecutive number in boxing history.

61-0-0 is a career for most greats. Imagine if Armstrong had that record without the other fights and losses - I'm pretty sure he'd be the consensus #1 with no questions asked. Armstrong needed those early losses to help him learn - it was a matter of trial and error, improvement; development. He burned out during his welterweight reign and then lost to someone good enough to take the title from him - a dirty cunt who may have been disqualified under today's rules, Fritzie Zivic. Even when slower, battle-scarred and less agile than before, Armstrong was still beating some of the best. He did lose his consistency, but it didn't really matter because he'd already had a career's worth of magnificence from '36-'40. The pre '36 and post '40 wins, where he beat another four Hall of Famers and around twelve contenders, are just the icing on the cake.

We must remember that Armstrong didn't benefit from a glorious amateur career like Ray Robinson's and was largely a novice when he stepped into the ring in his early days.

[Nemesis]

Here is an interesting comment by Armstrong, speaking of his fight with Ray Robinson:

"I almost knocked Ray out. He kept throwing those bolo punches at me. Well, I'd mastered how to defend myself against bolos from Ceferino Garcia. Ray threw one to many and I hit him with a right hand that sent him across the ring. But the bell saved him and he ran from me the rest of the fight. I couldn't catch him. I kept taunting him, 'Come on in and fight.' He just kept shaking his head and running like a scared rabbit."
.

:lol:

That has to be the funniest quote in a while.

[Manassa]

:lol:

That has to be the funniest quote in a while.

Funny in what way?

I don't know who to believe; Robinson, who said he carried Armstrong, or the latter, who says Robinson wouldn't dare to exchange with him. Through no bias, I find Armstrong's account more believable seeing as he was still a top quality fighter who was knocking out a lot of people. The man was an experienced bull, and the young, spindly Robinson would probably have thought it wiser to keep his distance. By that point, Armstrong lacked the footspeed and agility of his youth to catch up to boxers and preferred a fighter to stand and trade with him.

[McGrain]

He ducked Burley.

But I always say that.

Lovely pictures, Manassa.

[Nemesis]

Funny in what way?

I don't know who to believe; Robinson, who said he carried Armstrong, or the latter, who says Robinson wouldn't dare to exchange with him. Through no bias, I find Armstrong's account more believable seeing as he was still a top quality fighter who was knocking out a lot of people. The man was an experienced bull, and the young, spindly Robinson would probably have thought it wiser to keep his distance. By that point, Armstrong lacked the footspeed and agility of his youth to catch up to boxers and preferred a fighter to stand and trade with him.

it just seems strange, that directly after the fight he told the newspaper men that Robinson would have beaten him in his prime regardless and then this. I tend to believe Robinson's comments, as he said that at that time Armstrong had regressed that much he physically had to hold him up at some stages as he didnt want Armstrong to suffer the indignity of being KO'ed

we need some of the newspaper reports of the fight for neutrality, anybody frequent the New York library or is there anywhere on the internet that stores Newspaper articles of the NY Post (or similar)?

[Manassa]

He ducked Burley.

But I always say that.

Lovely pictures, Manassa.

I very much doubt that.

[Nemesis]

He ducked Burley.

But I always say that.

Lovely pictures, Manassa.

McG. where do you rank Burley in your middleweight rankings and P4P?

I ask because although i think he would rank top 5 (Middle) in head to head rankings, I cannot find a place in the top 8, just on the opponents he beat.

[McGrain]

During Armstrongs run Burley was still very green and untested, so no Hammerin´Hank didn´t duck Burley.

He held two wins over Zivic when he Armstrong, having been approached by Burley's people, chose to fight Zivic.

Also, during the two following approaches, Armstrong's people apparentley indicated they were of back down the divisions. Then they fought another one at Welter.

Burley was ranked second in the world behind Ralph Zanelli at this time. I think.

[Manassa]

it just seems strange, that directly after the fight he told the newspaper men that Robinson would have beaten him in his prime regardless and then this. I tend to believe Robinson's comments, as he said that at that time Armstrong had regressed that much he physically had to hold him up at some stages as he didnt want Armstrong to suffer the indignity of being KO'ed

we need some of the newspaper reports of the fight for neutrality, anybody frequent the New York library or is there anywhere on the internet that stores Newspaper articles of the NY Post (or similar)?

Maybe Armstrong meant Robinson would have always beaten him, but only if he ran.

I got this from the New York Times:

Ray Robinson, Harlem welterweight who is now a corporal in the Army, enjoyed a brisk workout at the expense of the veteran Henry Armstrong in the star bout of ten rounds at Madison Square Garden last night. Robinson enjoyed it, but nobody else in the Garden got any satisfaction from the spectacle, which was as tame as a gymnasium workout between father and son.

It doesn't tell us much apart from there wasn't much action. It supports both stories without giving a definitive answer.

[McGrain]

McG. where do you rank Burley in your middleweight rankings and P4P?

I ask because although i think he would rank top 5 (Middle) in head to head rankings, I cannot find a place in the top 8, just on the opponents he beat.

I absolutley agree with you. Though he beat some very good fighters, he never got a Sugar or an Armstrong so what you say is true.

I have him behind Greb and Sugar at middle head to head and that's it.

Post war, i have him top ten pound for pound.

[McGrain]

I very much doubt that.

Well there are different types of duck for sure. I don't mean to imply that he was scared of Burley - not for a second.

But Burley was ranked, the best around, and Armstrong didn't take him on.

[Nemesis]

Maybe Armstrong meant Robinson would have always beaten him, but only if he ran.

I got this from the New York Times:

Ray Robinson, Harlem welterweight who is now a corporal in the Army, enjoyed a brisk workout at the expense of the veteran Henry Armstrong in the star bout of ten rounds at Madison Square Garden last night. Robinson enjoyed it, but nobody else in the Garden got any satisfaction from the spectacle, which was as tame as a gymnasium workout between father and son.

It doesn't tell us much apart from there wasn't much action. It supports both stories without giving a definitive answer.

fair enough. How did you get your hands on that?

[Manassa]

fair enough. How did you get your hands on that?

Nothing special, I just went on the site and searched it. You need to pay to read more, that's just the first paragraph.

[Nemesis]

I absolutley agree with you. Though he beat some very good fighters, he never got a Sugar or an Armstrong so what you say is true.

I have him behind Greb and Sugar at middle head to head and that's it.

Post war, i have him top ten pound for pound.

interesting, it depends what criteria people use when ranking P4P, as some go off H2H, Opponents beat, Significance and all of the above.

why do you separate, pre/post world war 2 rankings, your not alluding to a certain paradigm shift are you :hey

[McGrain]

why do you separate, pre/post world war 2 rankings, your not alluding to a certain paradigm shift are you :hey

Not me pal!

What it is is; the job is just to big for me. When I try to join up my pre(very short) and post(a bit bigger) lists together I start losing the plot and throwing things about, shouting at nothing, then the mrs goes "what is it that's wrong with you this stuff isn't important then I have to spend 10 minutes explaining why it is imporatant, and by the end of the tirade i've done nothing but convince myself that it just isn't important.

Breaking the lists in two just makes it more manageable.

As far as that whole shift thing goes, i just don't see it. I think the top men of 1900 would beat the bottom men of 2000 and vice versa.

[McGrain]

You´re talking like Zivic wouldn´t be a dangerous opponent.

No i'm not.

That guy beat Armstrong two times. So no he didn´t duck Burley.

He did. You can say "failed to fight" if you like, like I said to Manassa, there are different kinds of duck.

I'll say it again: Burley was the best, Armstrong didn't fight him.

In Armstrong's defence, Burley had a load of hand problems around that time and was out of the game for five months, a long time in those days as you know.

Fighting a dangerous opponent instead of another dangerous opponent isn´t ducking. It´s about the circumstances not about ducking.

There is some truth in this - but here we have an occasion where Armstorng fights one fighter who lost out 2-1 in a series (which almost certainly should have been 3-0) instead of the winning fighter. That would actually not be seen as acceptable these days.




When where the other two occasions and who did Armstrong fight instead?

Arizmendi was the first one. After that Burley was out of the picture with hand injuries and was in and out of the ring. Armstrong did that amazing thing with Garcia. Then there was Furr, which was a bit ridiculous, before the Zivic thing which was heinous.

[mcvey]

He held two wins over Zivic when he Armstrong, having been approached by Burley's people, chose to fight Zivic.

Also, during the two following approaches, Armstrong's people apparentley indicated they were of back down the divisions. Then they fought another one at Welter.

Burley was ranked second in the world behind Ralph Zanelli at this time. I think.
Zivic held Burleys contract,he bought it after fighting him ,some say to use Burley as a"Policeman",others so that he could avoid Burley himself.

[mcvey]

Armstrong's top wins, while great, are not on the same level of Ezzard Charles', for instance. But what really does it is Armstrong's consistency during a certain period where he went 59-1-1 (both the loss and draw being very controversial), scoring 51 knockouts, over three original weight classes, beating six Hall of Famers. It's incredible. Though only a lightweight, Armstrong holds the record for welterweight title defenses!

It's a common misconception that Armstrong was finished after he lost his titles, but in reality, he was always in the picture; though Armstrong slowed down quickly, he still managed to beat top quality fighters. He trashed Hall of Famers Fritzie Zivic, Lew Jenkins (for a second time) and Sammy Angott and also beat the excellent Willie Joyce, among others, such as former champion Tippy Larkin who he knocked out with a single punch. The massive hitting Al Davis had his teeth busted. Contender Ralph Zanelli was hammered twice.

Armstrong was pretty formidable before his famous peak run as well, where he beat a couple more Hall of Famers and several contenders such as Mike Belloise and Juan Zurita.
Towards the end Armstrong may not have been the perpetual motion dynamo he had been but I thinkhe was still formidable ,the problem was greedy management kept him fighting when he should have been resting,and letting the scar tissue around his eyes heal.

[McGrain]

Zivic held Burleys contract,he bought it after fighting him ,some say to use Burley as a"Policeman",others so that he could avoid Burley himself.

Yes, but not until after he came to the title. Though the Armstrong "duck" was probably the one that really finished Burley's chances at being champion (perversely), Zivic buying his contract was pretty much the nail in the coffin.

Zivic sent him all over the country to keep from fighting him. Basically there were two welters from the same city, one clearly better than the other, with the weaker fighter having somehow come to the title and now owning his nearest rivals contract. F*cking disgusting is the only way to surmise that situation really.

[Jack Dempsey]

Someone in the forum has a beautiful poster of Henry, it would be great if he could post it.

Of course Henry is one of the best ever. A true fighting machine !

One of my favorite fighter, definitely.

Might be me

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[McGrain]

Might be me

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


What does your wife make of the stuff you plant all over her house?

Or is it all in you "den"?

[Jack Dempsey]

What does your wife make of the stuff you plant all over her house?

Or is it all in you "den"?

She tends to roll her eyes as another picture is sneaked in, they are mostly in my stairway and landing, I try to make sure they look classy:D

[Manassa]

She tends to roll her eyes as another picture is sneaked in, they are mostly in my stairway and landing, I try to make sure they look classy:D

By the way, I'm at the Boatyard in October. You?

[Jack Dempsey]

By the way, I'm at the Boatyard in October. You?

Thats the one I'd go for, I'm hoping (fingers crossed) that there are still tickets left when my birthday comes around, I'll let you know

[PowerPuncher]

Armstrong's top wins, while great, are not on the same level of Ezzard Charles', for instance. But what really does it is Armstrong's consistency during a certain period where he went 59-1-1 (both the loss and draw being very controversial), scoring 51 knockouts, over three original weight classes, beating six Hall of Famers. It's incredible. Though only a lightweight, Armstrong holds the record for welterweight title defenses!

It's a common misconception that Armstrong was finished after he lost his titles, but in reality, he was always in the picture; though Armstrong slowed down quickly, he still managed to beat top quality fighters. He trashed Hall of Famers Fritzie Zivic, Lew Jenkins (for a second time) and Sammy Angott and also beat the excellent Willie Joyce, among others, such as former champion Tippy Larkin who he knocked out with a single punch. The massive hitting Al Davis had his teeth busted. Contender Ralph Zanelli was hammered twice.

Armstrong was pretty formidable before his famous peak run as well, where he beat a couple more Hall of Famers and several contenders such as Mike Belloise and Juan Zurita.

How many of those 60 opponents were any good?

[jyuza]

Might be me

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Thank you Jack.

What a pic, always facinates me.

[Manassa]

How many of those 60 opponents were any good?

Most of them.

[PowerPuncher]

Most of them.

Most of them were journeymen

[Manassa]

Most of them were journeymen

No. I'll reply later.

[Manassa]

Most of them were journeymen

Could you do me a list of the fighters from Armstrong's '36-'40 run who you consider to be journeymen?