Biggest myth in Boxing

[fg2227]

For me it's that Ali was getting a pasting from Foreman.

[McGrain]

For me it's that Ali was getting a pasting from Foreman.

Spot on. I think it's possible to give Ali every round. Just about.

I am also astonished by the number of people who think both Liston-Ali fights were on the level.

[Stewbear]

That whitaker was robbed against chavez.

[MagnificentMatt]

Spot on. I think it's possible to give Ali every round. Just about.

I am also astonished by the number of people who think both Liston-Ali fights were on the level.

I think both Liston fights were thrown..

[salsanchezfan]

Spot on. I think it's possible to give Ali every round. Just about.

I am also astonished by the number of people who think both Liston-Ali fights were on the level.


.........This is always a hot button topic here, so I'll not go too far into it, but while I do believe Liston tanked the second fight, I see no evidence of it in the first fight. Had this been the case, he wouldn't have attacked Clay like such a rabid dog when Clay's eyes were giving him problems. His intent was there for all to see, and he was throwing wicked, wicked shots. I think he just realized after that opportunity closed off that he simply couldn't win, and decided to forego more punishment. Going into it, though, completely on the level.

[McGrain]

I think both Liston fights were thrown..

I agree.

[McGrain]

while I do believe Liston tanked the second fight, I see no evidence of it in the first fight. Had this been the case, he wouldn't have attacked Clay like such a rabid dog when Clay's eyes were giving him problems. His intent was there for all to see, and he was throwing wicked, wicked shots. I think he just realized after that opportunity closed off that he simply couldn't win, and decided to forego more punishment. Going into it, though, completely on the level.


I disagree sir!

But It's all cirumstancial, i've just taken a position based on what i've read and seen.

[GazOC]

That Leonard ducked Pryor.

[MagnificentMatt]

I agree.

Well its easily believable if you consider all it took was "Hey Sonny, im gonna blow your brains out if you dont throw the fight."

But you cna never know with the kind of shady stuff Sonny Liston dealt with...look at how he died...

[salsanchezfan]

I disagree sir!

But It's all cirumstancial, i've just taken a position based on what i've read and seen.


.............Well, maybe I'll just get into it a little bit. :lol:

If he were to tank the first fight, what better opportunity to do so than the third round, when Clay legitimately had him hurt? Fall down then, if that's the plan, it would have made perfect sense. Yet he came back in the fifth (I think it was the fifth) to try to crush Clay's ribs in, in a completely desperate fashion. Hardly the mark of a man trying to throw a fight.

[mr. magoo]

That whitaker was robbed against chavez.

I personally think that Whitaker should have gotten that decision, but then I guess that's a debate for a whole other thread.

[Sam Dixon]

I'm not sure if it's the biggest myth, but one that seems to have gotten my attention for quite a while now (a few years), is the one that claims that the "pound for pound" term was coined or invented for Robinson.

[Quick Cash]

I agree with everything Sal has said so far. I think the second meeting was a dive but i don't think the Mob was involved in that one. It looked like a personal decision from a demoralized man past his peak

I'm not sure if it's the biggest myth, but one that seems to have gotten my attention for quite a while now (a few years), is the one that claims that the "pound for pound" term was coined or invented for Robinson.

It wasn't? I heard about it and bought into it at the time. It made sense. What have you read or heard that suggested otherwise?

[McGrain]

If he were to tank the first fight, what better opportunity to do so than the third round, when Clay legitimately had him hurt?

Well, if Liston's "handlers" have specified round six, there's no reason for Liston to go down here.

Fall down then, if that's the plan, it would have made perfect sense. Yet he came back in the fifth (I think it was the fifth) to try to crush Clay's ribs in, in a completely desperate fashion. Hardly the mark of a man trying to throw a fight.

Liston is not a greatly affective stalker. His trump card was to "leap in" against the fighter who was running, usually using body shots. Not only does Liston fail to "leap in" against Ali early (just think of it as pure offensive commitment) he also fails to go to the body. He spends most of the early rounds head hunting. Ali goes blind, suddenly Liston doesn't want to head hunt anymore - which he's been doing throughout, apparently trying to stop his man -he now goes for the blind man's body, though with no great success.

[Sam Dixon]

It wasn't? I heard about it and bought into it at the time. It made sense. What have you read or heard that suggested otherwise?

I've seen it referenced in contemporary accounts to a number of fighters from just before his time, my friend, like Kid Chocolate, Barney Ross, Jimmy McLarnin, Henry Armstrong, Tony Canzoneri, but the following is the earliest reference where I've seen it used to describe a fighter;

"Fitz was far and away the best fighting man, pound for pound, the game ever produced. Pound for pound he never had his equal." - Lima Daily News, Jan 1st, 1918

I can't be positive that that is even the first time it was used in the sport and I would even strongly doubt that it was the first time being used, considering the term itself is quite an old one and was even used in the farming and shipping industries even as far back as a hundred years (or very near) before Robinson began his pro career.

[Jose FM]

That Sturm beat DLH.

[salsanchezfan]

[quote=salsanchezfan
If he were to tank the first fight, what better opportunity to do so than the third round, when Clay legitimately had him hurt?[quote]

Well, if Liston's "handlers" have specified round six, there's no reason for Liston to go down here.



Liston is not a greatly affective stalker. His trump card was to "leap in" against the fighter who was running, usually using body shots. Not only does Liston fail to "leap in" against Ali early (just think of it as pure offensive commitment) he also fails to go to the body. He spends most of the early rounds head hunting. Ali goes blind, suddenly Liston doesn't want to head hunt anymore - which he's been doing throughout, apparently trying to stop his man -he now goes for the blind man's body, though with no great success.


................But even while blind, Clay was showing great head movement, even more pronounced than before, precisely because of his eye trouble. And Liston was nailing him well to the body, as evidenced by what Dundee said later, that his body was "one big welt."

What evidence is there of an arranged ending after the sixth round?


This is fun! :razz: Haven't done this in a while.........

[McGrain]

I agree with everything Sal has said so far. I think the second meeting was a dive but i don't think the mob was involved in that one. It looked like a personal decision from a demoralized man past his peak

Nobody in Liston's position would be allowed to take a "personal decision" in these cirumstances. Tell yourself anything else you like about that second fight and you are unlikely to be more wrong than what you've got currently.

[Jose FM]

Spot on. I think it's possible to give Ali every round. Just about.
:good Ali gave him a beating....

I am also astonished by the number of people who think both Liston-Ali fights were on the level.
:good The first fight Ali was really getting to Liston, and Liston was throwing powerful powerful shots, Ali movement was really frustration Liston. As for the second fight. Liston totally threw that fight cause he was afraid of the people round Ali, fact.

[McGrain]

................But even while blind, Clay was showing great head movement, even more pronounced than before,

You are right.

He would also be easier to time.


And Liston was nailing him well to the body, as evidenced by what Dundee said later, that his body was "one big welt."

There's no question that Liston was really hitting Ali. What else could he do? If the situation I see is the right one I mean?

What evidence is there of an arranged ending after the sixth round?

In the sixth, read accounts of the fight always talk of Ali landing "at will", and the accounts hold on viewing. I think it is possible that he is waiting for the big shot, leaving himself open to shots and waiting for the one that will see him down, or at least nearly.

Liston was seen crying on his way into the ring. I think he got the news in the dressing room...no other way to do it if you think about it.

No rehersal (though Lisotn new years before that he would have to take a dive at some point, and told people just that) specific to that fight. It must be a difficult thing to get right (As the 2nd fight shows) and Liston is allowing himself to be hit, hoping to be legitimatley dropped.

Bell rings. Oh shit.


This is fun! :razz: Haven't done this in a while.........

It's always fun with you Sal, whatever the topic.

[Duodenum]

I've seen it referenced in contemporary accounts to a number of fighters from just before his time, my friend, like Kid Chocolate, Barney Ross, Jimmy McLarnin, Henry Armstrong, Tony Canzoneri, but the following is the earliest reference where I've seen it used to describe a fighter;

"Fitz was far and away the best fighting man, pound for pound, the game ever produced. Pound for pound he never had his equal." - Lima Daily News, Jan 1st, 1918

I can't be positive that that is even the first time it was used in the sport and I would even strongly doubt that it was the first time being used, considering the term itself is quite an old one and was even used in the farming and shipping industries even as far back as a hundred years (or very near) before Robinson began his pro career.That's a nifty tidbit of info Sam. For a long time now, I've been under the impression that the term was coined for Canzoneri, but I don't recall where that statement originally came from. In any event, you've cited source documentation predating both Robinson and Canzoneri. Good scholarship Sir.

[Quick Cash]

Nobody in Liston's position would be allowed to take a "personal decision" in these cirumstances. Tell yourself anything else you like about that second fight and you are unlikely to be more wrong than what you've got currently.

Well, most of this is merely speculation on both our parts anyway. I imagine Carbone and his associates would actually be looking to distance themselves with Sonny especially after the loss to Clay. He wasn't really an asset as an ex-champ. He was hounded by police mainly for petty infractions but was also widely known to be connected with the Mob. I can see how they might want to cash in one last time on their boy, having him lose ridiculously by first round knockout, but then again, why have him do it in such obscurity. No one was interested in the fight at the time.

I think the more likely scenario was that he just gave up. He was reportedly training hard for the fight right before it was delayed some months because of Ali's hernia. He probably felt cheated and gave up. Simple as that. Maybe he even bet against himself to shave off some of his debt we don't know.

[Sam Dixon]

That's a nifty tidbit of info Sam. For a long time now, I've been under the impression that the term was coined for Canzoneri, but I don't recall where that statement originally came from. In any event, you've cited source documentation predating both Robinson and Canzoneri. Good scholarship Sir.

Thank you very much.

I've posted these on another forum in the past, but here's a couple of references where the term was used in describing Canzoneri;

"Tony Canzoneri, lightweight champion of the world, accorded honor as the ring's greatest fighter, pound for pound." - June 18, 1933, Chicago Daily Tribune

"Canzoneri, ranked by many as the world's greatest fighter, pound for pound." Associated Press, June 23rd, 1933

If I'm remembering my dates right, that last quote there was on the day of his first fight with Barney Ross, and boxrec used to (may still do) have a reference to an AP report from after the fight under their heading that stated;

"Ross, who had upset the fighter who had been characterized as the best in the world, pound for pound."

[McGrain]

I imagine Carbone and his associates would actually be looking to distance themselves with Sonny especially after the loss to Clay. He wasn't really an asset as an ex-champ.

The Gray and Palermo were both in desperate trouble by this time and facing serious, serious jail time. Though I think Palermo was a free man at this time he was sure on the Big List. Liston was a huge asset at those long odds. Enormous. In terms of cash money and a laundering asset he was probably worth millions.


He was hounded by police mainly for petty infractions but was also widely known to be connected with the Mob.

Not connected. Owned. Lock stock and barrel.


I think the more likely scenario was that he just gave up.

I think this scenario is literally as likely as aliens making him do it. I'm serious.

[Quick Cash]

There's no question that Liston was really hitting Ali. What else could he do? If the situation I see is the right one I mean?



In the sixth, read accounts of the fight always talk of Ali landing "at will", and the accounts hold on viewing. I think it is possible that he is waiting for the big shot, leaving himself open to shots and waiting for the one that will see him down, or at least nearly.

No rehersal (though Lisotn new years before that he would have to take a dive at some point, and told people just that) specific to that fight. It must be a difficult thing to get right (As the 2nd fight shows) and Liston is allowing himself to be hit, hoping to be legitimatley dropped.

Bell rings. Oh shit.



You mean to say that while his face was being plastered he never once thought, 'gee, this one was a whopper, i better go down now"? The bell rings, oh shit? He was accumulating cuts but never thought to go down?

What's up with the dirty tactics with the liniment then? Why was he pursuing Clay so doggedly after that incident landing dangerous punches? Is it not more plausible that he saw it as his last chance to do damage? Remember that before this fight, Clay had been downed three times already. I dont think he was throwing bombs thinking, 'he can take it'.

[McGrain]

You mean to say that while his face was being plastered he never once thought, 'gee, this one was a whopper, i better go down now"? The bell rings, oh shit? He was accumulating cuts but never thought to go down?

That's right. There is no school for falling over properly, no lessons on taking a dive. The LaMotta story reads EXACTLY like this, he was expected to take a dive and couldn't, though possibly for different reasons. Had his purse witheld and then paid (same as Liston).

It also explains the absolutley ludicrous dive in the 2nd fight. "Just go down the first time you get hit this time".


What's up with the dirty tactics with the liniment then?

There are three possibilities

1) Liston didn't take a dive and tried to cheat his way to victory.

2) Liston's cornerman wasn't in on the dive (likley) and played the trick independantly.

3) It was an accident.

Regardless of dive/no dive, I favour 3. 1 is the most unlikely to me. These things just aren't plausible during a world title fight.

Why was he pursuing Clay so doggedly after that incident landing dangerous punches?

He wasn't. None of the punhces he landed was particularly dangerous though they were reasonabley hard. I've already covered this with Sal.

Is it not more plausible that he saw it as his last chance to do damage?

If this is so then it is interesting that he stops head hunting and concentrates on the body. He spends the early rounds head hunting the most elusive fighter he's ever faced - when it is more normal for him to attack the body - then switches his tactics when his opponent is finally more vulnerable to the original tactic.

Remember that before this fight, Clay had been downed three times already. I dont think he was throwing bombs thinking, 'he can take it'.

He would certainly have to throw punhces though. I can't accept missed punches (and all the really big head punches were misseed) as proof of attempting to KO the opponent.

[Quick Cash]

The Gray and Palermo were both in desperate trouble by this time and facing serious, serious jail time. Though I think Palermo was a free man at this time he was sure on the Big List. Liston was a huge asset at those long odds. Enormous. In terms of cash money and a laundering asset he was probably worth millions.

Not connected. Owned. Lock stock and barrel.

I think this scenario is literally as likely as aliens making him do it. I'm serious.

Oh, excuse me for confusing Carbone for Palermo by the way. I just watched Sugar Ray Robinson: Bright Lights, Dark Shadows:D

I know he was owned and all that, but why would the Mafia guys want to further link themselves with a suspected Mob fighter and just when they were feeling the heat themselves?

If he was pulling his punches, why was he diagnosed with a shoulder injury after? Conversely, if he was landing to make a show of it, why against someone reputed to have a glass chin like Clay at the time?

The shoulder injury clinches it for me. That, to me, says he over-exerted himself in the 5th in a last-ditch effort to lay his opponent out.

[janitor]

That Primo Carnera was merely the product of a series of fixed fights and did not win the title on his merits.

[McGrain]

Oh, excuse me for confusing Carbone for Palermo by the way. I just watched Sugar Ray Robinson: Bright Lights, Dark Shadows:D

No bother; it doesn't help that all mob guys have ten million nick names.

I know he was owned and all that, but why would the Mafia guys want to further link themselves with a suspected Mob fighter and just when they were feeling the heat themselves?

Feeling the heat is one of the many reasons they would look to sever their links at this point, but it's a small one really. An absolutley desperate need to cash in on any assets that they have would be the main one.

If he was pulling his punches, why was he diagnosed with a shoulder injury after? Conversely, if he was landing to make a show of it, why against someone reputed to have a glass chin like Clay at the time?

Well pulling your punches is more likely to cause injury to the cuff than full blooded blows; it's an unatural movement and not one he has trained all his life for - Liston did have shoulder problems going in though, in fact i'm pretty sure he was taking injections.

The shoulder injury clinches it for me. That, to me, says he over-exerted himself in the 5th in a last-ditch effort to lay his opponent out.

As I said; it's more likely he would injure himself making an unnatural movement than a natural one.

Regardless, Liston came up pulling a plough on his fathers scrub, not unlike a horse. The scars are in the post mortem report. Unlikley that something like swelling in the tissue of the shoulder would keep him from his work.

[McGrain]

That Primo Carnera was merely the product of a series of fixed fights and did not win the title on his merits.


I would guess that he had some serious help...but I agree, the level of contempt he is held in by some is ludicrous.

Where is HomicidalHank these days?

[janitor]

[quote=McGrain]I would guess that he had some serious help...but I agree, the level of contempt he is held in by some is ludicrous.


A lot of people had some help in this period. The fights that actualy established Carnera as a title challenger and the title fight were all on the level.

He was a real champion.


Where is HomicidalHank these days?


I think you have scared him away.

[TBooze]

One big myth that was busted a few years back was the Cooper/AliI (Clay) split glove myth.

The BBC looked back at the tapes, the glove was not replaced and Ali (Clay) was given no more than an extra 10 seconds between the rounds.

Do not believe me? Watch the ESPN Classic coverage of the bout, that is on virtually ever other week.

[McGrain]

[quote]

I think you have scared him away.

The funny thing was I like him to start with. We had a grand old time with the middleweights.

But when it came to the bigger guys, we just fell out, over and over again, Braddock, Louis and Dempsey mainly.

[Quick Cash]

That's right. There is no school for falling over properly, no lessons on taking a dive. The LaMotta story reads EXACTLY like this, he was expected to take a dive and couldn't, though possibly for different reasons. Had his purse witheld and then paid (same as Liston).

It also explains the absolutley ludicrous dive in the 2nd fight. "Just go down the first time you get hit this time".




There are three possibilities

1) Liston didn't take a dive and tried to cheat his way to victory.

2) Liston's cornerman wasn't in on the dive (likley) and played the trick independantly.

3) It was an accident.

Regardless of dive/no dive, I favour 3. 1 is the most unlikely to me. These things just aren't plausible during a world title fight.



He wasn't. None of the punhces he landed was particularly dangerous though they were reasonabley hard. I've already covered this with Sal.



If this is so then it is interesting that he stops head hunting and concentrates on the body. He spends the early rounds head hunting the most elusive fighter he's ever faced - when it is more normal for him to attack the body - then switches his tactics when his opponent is finally more vulnerable to the original tactic.



He would certainly have to throw punches though. I can't accept missed punches (and all the really big head punches were misseed) as proof of attempting to KO the opponent.


Clearly, I'm for the first of the three stated scenarios. Like I said before, we're both engaging in a speculative discussion; we could both end up wrong. The turn of events of my theory, however, are more consistent with the actual conclusion of my speculation. There are no coincidences in mine and I don't think there are any gaping wholes either. It was a controversial fight and I admit to not having the full story.

Agree to disagree, I guess. I still maintain that relinquishing the title after receiving a shoulder injury to go with a boxing lesson is not any more incredible than your story.

[janitor]

[quote=janitor]

The funny thing was I like him to start with. We had a grand old time with the middleweights.

But when it came to the bigger guys, we just fell out, over and over again, Braddock, Louis and Dempsey mainly.

HH is the Ike Ibeabuchi of ESB.

Had the talent to be something but other personality traits got in the way.

[Drew101]

Normally, if a fighter takes a dive, they make a point of taking as little punishment as possible (hence the reason why most people think the second fight was a total fix...I'm not so sure that it was). But, in the first fight, Liston was sliced open, and swollen around both eyes by the end of six rounds.

When one factors in the way he stormed after Ali in the first two rounds, the way he fought back after being hurt in the third, and the way he tried to finish matters in the fifth, I just don't see any way that the first fight was "fixed". Liston may have quit in the fight, but I think that really had more to do with Ali, and less to do with other external sources.

[McGrain]

Had the talent to be something but other personality traits got in the way.


Yeah, well put.

[janitor]

Normally, if a fighter takes a dive, they make a point of taking as little punishment as possible (hence the reason why most people think the second fight was a total fix...I'm not so sure that it was).

If a fighter takes a dive they will normaly do it in the first round because it is the most fail safe option.

Say that I am going to take a dive against you. To maximise my profits I must predict the round I go down in. If I say round six then I must protect myself for six rounds without knocking you out.

If you knock me out in round five before I can dive then I end up wearing a concrete jacket. This is especialy likley because I cannot risk knocking you out.

If I defend myself overzealously and knock you out then again I end up wearing a concrete jacket.

If I arange to lie down in the first round then there is no way it can possibly go wrong (unless of course you refuse to go to your neutral corner and stand over me shouting "Get up and fight you bum")

[Amsterdam]

I agree with McGrain, I gave Ali 5 of the rounds before the 8th and he was really busting Foreman up. Both guys dished out punishment to each other, the only reason it's considered that Ali just sat there and waited until Foreman tired out is because most boxing fans and uneducated about the details of the sport and watch with rose coloured glasses.

I guess they didn't see Ali landing blistering combo's to Foreman's head all throughout the fight.

[McGrain]

What people forget about the Liston-Ali possible fix is that it was the purest gambling dive of all time, if it took place.

Liston's success was causing the mafia rank and file a huge amount of money because absolutley no-one was backing Liston's opponents in any way shape or form.

The wrong people were cleaning up on every Liston fight.

The selection of the round would have literally nothing - nothing - to do with the reality and everything to do with the spread. How to chase the most money out of the thing. How to nail non-Mafia bookies and boost the right guys - who had been getting hurt by a fighter owned by their own company - whilst simultaniously rescuing some of the highest ranking mobsters in the country from total and utter disaster.

We have a subject who is owned entirely by dishonest men, who are desperate, who can probably be exposed by a rapist at any time, who has been told from day one that he would be taking a dive at one point.

We also have an almost concrete case for a dive less than a year from this fight, an identical future echo.

The resistance to even the possibility of a dive in the first fight is pretty ludicrous in my opinion.

No disrespect to Drew or QuickCash who are both good guys and fine posters.

[Drew101]

If a fighter takes a dive they will normaly do it in the first round because it is the most fail safe option.

Say that I am going to take a dive against you. To maximise my profits I must predict the round I go down in. If I say round six then I must protect myself for six rounds without knocking you out.

If you knock me out in round five before I can dive then I end up wearing a concrete jacket. This is especialy likley because I cannot risk knocking you out.

If I defend myself overzealously and knock you out then again I end up wearing a concrete jacket.

If I arange to lie down in the first round then there is no way it can possibly go wrong (unless of course you refuse to go to your neutral corner and stand over me shouting "Get up and fight you bum")

The logic makes sense, but, based on what I've seen of the second fight, I'm still not certain whether it's a fix from the start, or simply a case of Liston simply saying to hell with it after getting dropped by a shot he didn't see.

I've seen plenty of seemingly innocous punches drop fighters, so a quick right hand near the temple dropping someone like Liston isn't that much of a surprise. Now, when you combine that Ali had landed a right hand to start the fight, it's easy to see the wheels spinning inside Liston's head..."Fuck this, I'm not winning this fight, and I don't feel like dragging it out any longer than I have to."

At that point, it had already been established that Liston couldn't get out of the way of Ali's right hand (it had landed to start the fight), and was having a difficult time hitting Ali with anything in return. If you think the kd's legit (and I do), then it's easy to see Liston giving up and calling it a night.

[Sizzle]

Mayweather really lost to Castillo in the first fight is the biggest myth in boxing IMO.

[Nemesis]

Mayweather really lost to Castillo in the first fight is the biggest myth in boxing IMO.
yep, as much as i dislike the little cunt, I still had him winning 7-5

[KTFO]

Biggest myth in Boxing


........that Ali was a pro-boxer. :lol:

[Drew101]

Mayweather really lost to Castillo in the first fight is the biggest myth in boxing IMO.

It was a close fight, that could have gone either way...but, you're right: it wasn't highway robbery.

Edit: I called it a draw, personally. I think the majority of the controversy stems from how lopsided the scorecards were in PBF's favor.

[Stewbear]

That's not a myth, that's what anyone with eyes will tell you. Whitaker owned him, if you gave the fight to Chavez you are a fucking idiot, and you don't know what the hell you're talking about, plain and simple.

Ahh the definition of a myth:smoke

[Chicago Nights]

That Carlos Monzon was a top 5 MW of all time, much less the best.

[Stewbear]

That Carlos Monzon was a top 5 MW of all time, much less the best.

Monzon is the number one middle, the definition of a champ.

[mr. magoo]

That's not a myth, that's what anyone with eyes will tell you. Whitaker owned him, if you gave the fight to Chavez you are a fucking idiot, and you don't know what the hell you're talking about, plain and simple.

Take it easy dude. I know it's none of my business but this is only a chat forum.

-Chill-

[Chicago Nights]

PLEASE explain.
Eh, I've hashed it out here with the "historians" ad naseum. Basically, he was just a big stiff you could take a punch and happened to fight in an incredibly weak era for middleweights. Hagler, Graziano, Robinson, Hearns, Jones, all would have destroyed Carlos the Robot.

[salsanchezfan]

Eh, I've hashed it out here with the "historians" ad naseum. Basically, he was just a big stiff you could take a punch and happened to fight in an incredibly weak era for middleweights. Hagler, Graziano, Robinson, Hearns, Jones, all would have destroyed Carlos the Robot.


..............So because some of us think he WAS the greatest middleweight ever were all suddenly "historians?"


Damn you! :twisted:

[Bill1234]

Damn you! :twisted:

:lol:

[salsanchezfan]

:lol:


...........Bill! Long time no see. Welcome back. How's Larry these days?

[Bill1234]

...........Bill! Long time no see. Welcome back. How's Larry these days?

Thanks. My computer was busted and it took a month until I got it back :mad: Fine...he's having trouble with some crack head in the gym though.

[salsanchezfan]

Thanks. My computer was busted and it took a month until I got it back :mad: Fine...he's having trouble with some crack head in the gym though.


...........He'll handle it; I'm sure in his time he's seen more than one lowlife.

[Bill1234]

...........He'll handle it; I'm sure in his time he's seen more than one lowlife.

My trainer through him out after he started cursing off at him, the guy keeps coming back though. He's gonna get punched pretty soon. Larry was about to hit him the other day.

[ripcity]

That you have to "Take the title" from the Champ. A chalenger in a title fight regardless of style stringths and weekneses must out-slug the champion. I think the No Decision Era where the chlanger had to knock out the champion to become champion plays a big part in this myth.
Also Whitaker ran from Chavez. He out boxed him from the outside and out sluged him on the inside. The truth is Whitaker made an extordnary boxer (Chavez) look ordnary.

[salsanchezfan]

That you have to "Take the title" from the Champ. A chalenger in a title fight regardless of style stringths and weekneses must out-slug the champion. I think the No Decision Era where the chlanger had to knock out the champion to become champion plays a big part in this myth.
Also Whitaker ran from Chavez. He out boxed him from the outside and out sluged him on the inside. The truth is Whitaker made an extordnary boxer (Chavez) look ordnary.


.............Great post. I fully agree with the "ya gotta REALLY take the title from the champ" stuff. That is crap. Boxing matches are supposed to be judged the same way no matter who is fighting. There is a winner in a round, and a loser. Jusge as you go, and tally it up at the end. Whomever comes out on top comes out on top. Otherwise, it's like a sprinter getting a ten-yard head start. Hollow victory.

[Lex]

"... happened to fight in an incredibly weak era for middleweights. Hagler, Graziano, Robinson, Hearns, Jones, all would have destroyed...
You forgot Tony Zale, Gene Fullmer, Carmen Basilio, Joey Giardello, Dick Tiger, Rubin Carter, Holly Mims, not to mention Emile Griffith, Bennie Brisco, Nino Benvenuti, Tony Mundine, Tony Licata, Rodrigo Valdez.

Oh, hang on a sec... didn't he beat a couple of those guys?

But, heck, Monzon couldn't have been any good. Out of, what, 90 fights he lost 3 in 1963 and '64 and barely squeaked through 87 wins before retiring in 1977.


Carlos the Robot.
Yeh. Kinda like Carlos Zarate, Danny "Little Red" Lopez, Michael Spinks, Larry Holmes. Those guys all kinda looked like zombies and disjointed robots sometimes. Buncha bums. (Ever notice how Larry Holmes' head would kinda quiver like a bobblehead doll on a car dashboard? Obviously he was a wind-up robot with an overtightened mainspring. - BTW, no disrespect to Larry. He's one of my all-time fave heavyweights and would have been a top notch fighter in any era.)

[Lex]

That you have to "Take the title" from the Champ.

Yeh, I kinda had my doubts about Evander Holyfield when he squeaked by in his first cruiserweight match against Qawi. I didn't think he really "took" the title away. But when Holyfield KO'd the incredibly tough Qawi in the rematch, that pretty much settled the issue.

[C. M. Clay II]

That Mike Tyson was past his prime after Michael Spinks.:good

[Jack Dempsey]

3 words: Dempseys loaded gloves

[barneyrub]

The biggest and often repeated myth on these forums at least is that Lewis had a glass or shaky chin. Followed by the line "because he got ko`d by 2 journeymen". I just dont know how many "journeymen" have records like those guys do. In Mccalls case he is still a top 5 world ranked contender 13 years after winning the title. Rahman held the title again 5 years after his Lewis fight.
A "Journeyman" is someone with 15, 20 losses on his record, a juluis francis, a ross purrity, a sedrick fields, all of Tua`s recent opponents also.

[OLD FOGEY]

3 words: Dempseys loaded gloves

1. The Dempsey's gloves were loaded theory

2. Sonny Liston was murdered or died of an overdose. The autopsy reported he died of cardiac failure brought on by occlusion of the small vessels of the heart--natural causes. I think it a preposterous conspiracy theory that the forensic pathologists and the various technicians who did the lab tests would lie about it or try to cover up anything. If Liston had died of a heroin overdose, they would have said so.

3. Max Baer killed Ernie Schaaf. Schaaf died because he entered the ring before recovering from a severe bout with influenza. There is no proof his earlier knockout by Baer had anything to do with it.

[Pat_Lowe]

1. The Dempsey's gloves were loaded theory

2. Sonny Liston was murdered or died of an overdose. The autopsy reported he died of cardiac failure brought on by occlusion of the small vessels of the heart--natural causes. I think it a preposterous conspiracy theory that the forensic pathologists and the various technicians who did the lab tests would lie about it or try to cover up anything. If Liston had died of a heroin overdose, they would have said so.

3. Max Baer killed Ernie Schaaf. Schaaf died because he entered the ring before recovering from a severe bout with influenza. There is no proof his earlier knockout by Baer had anything to do with it.

I was under the impression Liston also had a syringe in his arm when the found him. What explains that?

[OLD FOGEY]

I was under the impression Liston also had a syringe in his arm when the found him. What explains that?

There is no doubt heroin was found on the premises, but he simply didn't have enough in him to account for death, according to the pathologists. Why would they lie? Who would care that much to arrange a coverup?

Can you give a source on the syringe in the arm. This is the first time I have heard of it. I wonder if it could have stayed there after a weak of bloating and decomposition.

I would say that whatever is said of syringes or heroin, the autopsy report is by far the best evidence.

[Vanboxingfan]

Although I'm a huge Dempsey fan, one of the biggest myths in boxing is that he would have won the Tunney fight if it weren't for the long count.

[Pat_Lowe]

There is no doubt heroin was found on the premises, but he simple didn't have enough in him to account for death, according to the pathologists. Why would they lie? Who would care that much to arrange a coverup?

Can you give a source on the syringe in the arm. This is the first time I have heard of it. I wonder if it could have stayed there after a weak of bloating and decomposition.

I would say that whatever is said of syringes or heroin, the autopsy report is by far the best evidence.

Actually I can't remember where I heard it. I just watched the A&E Biography on Liston's life. Denis Caputo the detective from Liston's death said they couldn't find any evidence he died of anything other than natural causes. Guess I was wrong

[Dempsey1238]

I dont belive Walker and Greb have that fight at a steakeasy as Walker spend some time in a hospital after there fight or so I heard.

[Stonehands89]

Excuse my tardiness...

Liston did not throw the first fight with Clay.

He didn't train. Clay was considered a loud-mouth, chinny, light hitting overgrown child and Liston assumed that the moment he hit him, Clay would fold like a chair. The incident in the casino probably justified Liston's 2 week casual training camp. Remember that? That was when a bellowing Clay approached Liston at the crap table and Liston slapped him with an open hand. Clay was shocked and left like a child who got a whipping because he wanted to play.

Liston didn't train! That is the most sensible explanation and covers everything. It explains why he, if he did, have the solution rubbed on his gloves between rounds -desperation. It explains why he tried to smash Clay while Clay was blinded. The desperation of a depleting gas tank.

It also explains the beating he took -if you are going to throw a fight, you don't get all banged up like that because there is no reason too unless you want an academy award for acting --and Liston proved in Maine that he was the worst actor ever.

[Stonehands89]

Biggest myths originate with Angelo Dundee.

"Bullies (Liston) are afraid of lunatics (Clay)." He even decorated it with crap about prison culture. It is a falsehood. Liston laughed at Clay and perceived him as no threat. Therefore he trained like Max Baer.

[Pat_Lowe]

That Ali was the greatest; he wasn't. Frazier was his kryptonite especially considering his dodgy eye and the heat factor of their 3rd fight.

Ali was fighting in the same heat as well. Also, according to most accounts Ali did little training and wasn't well prepared for the fight. Frazier was his weakness though and that Ali managed to overcome him adds greatly to his legacy.

[Thread Stealer]

Here's a list of random boxing ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) myths/misconceptions that are kind of annoying.

Marvin Hagler was a brawler.

Fernando Vargas lost to Felix Trinidad simply because he chose to brawl instead of box.

Oscar De La Hoya's ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) corner told him to run against Trinidad.

James Toney-Michael Nunn was a "lucky punch". Toney was getting to Nunn had won the previous couple of rounds. Actually, basically any time "lucky punch" is used.

When people act like Foreman was dominating Ali before he got tired. People saying that De La Hoya ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) "clearly sealed" the victory over Quartey in the 12th makes me want to puke. Also, when people say "all you had to do was stand up to Tyson and he'd crumble". Geez, you think these pro fighters, world class contenders, would be a little tougher than to be spelled by the magic wand of fear that Tyson waved.

"You have to take it from the champion and win impressively". No, you have to win more rounds. There's like a gazillion belts out there. "Champion" means less nowadays.

[Luigi1985]

1 That Ken Norton has a glass chin when 3 of the 4 people who knocked him out are known for being the hardest punchers in heavyweight history not to mention Norton was done against Shavers and Cooney.
1 That Jake Lamotta has a great chin when most of the people he boxed against had no power.If you have 50 wins and only 15 knockouts like alot of the bums Lamotta fought then you have no power.If he was hit by the Roy Jones Jr's the McClellan's and the Julian Jackson's and stood up to them then you can say he has a great chin but since he didnt he should be known as a unskilled bum who beat women.
3. That Foreman had poor stamina in his prime when his record was
45-2 with 42 knockouts.Most of his knockouts came with in 3 rounds but if a guy boxed and moved like Peralta who Foreman went 10 rounds with 2 times before stopping Peralta in the 10th in their second fight then he showed he could go 10 when needed and come on strong. (Why base a fighter off 2 loses?I don't see anybody in here saying Tarver could knock out Ali because Henry Cooper a small 180 or so odd pound man almost knocked Ali out.)
4 That Rocky Marciano was skilled at all.In reality Marciano was the and is the most overrated pile of crap in any sport ever.Marciano was only 180 or so pounds but he was slower than most 300 pound fighters.He had no technique at all..basically just just threw one wild swing after another.Marciano's power at best was onlly good enough to knock out glass chin bums but even at that some times i took him 8 or 9 rounds to knockout fighters who were knocked out many times in 1 round by other fighters.Marciano was also dropped by Moore who was pushing 40 and who started his career at middleweight.Moore also was known for having a weak chin and was knocked out in a few rounds many times in his career yet it took Marciano 8 .If Moore could drop him then even a cowarly rapist like Tyson would destroy him.Tyson would be too big and fast and strong.But hey i guess having white skin puts you above other races doesn't it?Well only in boxing forums like this one.


You don´t need to write such a long novel, say you´re black and like only black fighters (honest would be you hate white fighters)...

[mcvey]

That Primo Carnera was merely the product of a series of fixed fights and did not win the title on his merits.
Waiting for that one J!

[janitor]

Waiting for that one J!

The questions you have to ask are-

Were any of the pivotal fights that established Carnera as a challenger to the title fixed?

Was the title fight fixed?

If not then you must give him his dues as a champion. Indeed a good one.

[janitor]

1 That Ken Norton has a glass chin when 3 of the 4 people who knocked him out are known for being the hardest punchers in heavyweight history not to mention Norton was done against Shavers and Cooney.
1 That Jake Lamotta has a great chin when most of the people he boxed against had no power.If you have 50 wins and only 15 knockouts like alot of the bums Lamotta fought then you have no power.If he was hit by the Roy Jones Jr's the McClellan's and the Julian Jackson's and stood up to them then you can say he has a great chin but since he didnt he should be known as a unskilled bum who beat women.
3. That Foreman had poor stamina in his prime when his record was
45-2 with 42 knockouts.Most of his knockouts came with in 3 rounds but if a guy boxed and moved like Peralta who Foreman went 10 rounds with 2 times before stopping Peralta in the 10th in their second fight then he showed he could go 10 when needed and come on strong. (Why base a fighter off 2 loses?I don't see anybody in here saying Tarver could knock out Ali because Henry Cooper a small 180 or so odd pound man almost knocked Ali out.)
4 That Rocky Marciano was skilled at all.In reality Marciano was the and is the most overrated pile of crap in any sport ever.Marciano was only 180 or so pounds but he was slower than most 300 pound fighters.He had no technique at all..basically just just threw one wild swing after another.Marciano's power at best was onlly good enough to knock out glass chin bums but even at that some times i took him 8 or 9 rounds to knockout fighters who were knocked out many times in 1 round by other fighters.Marciano was also dropped by Moore who was pushing 40 and who started his career at middleweight.Moore also was known for having a weak chin and was knocked out in a few rounds many times in his career yet it took Marciano 8 .If Moore could drop him then even a cowarly rapist like Tyson would destroy him.Tyson would be too big and fast and strong.But hey i guess having white skin puts you above other races doesn't it?Well only in boxing forums like this one.

You have a lot of personal issues.

You wont solve them here.

[mcvey]

I agree with everything Sal has said so far. I think the second meeting was a dive but i don't think the Mob was involved in that one. It looked like a personal decision from a demoralized man past his peak



It wasn't? I heard about it and bought into it at the time. It made sense. What have you read or heard that suggested otherwise?
If the Liston fights were pre arranged ,who benefited,Clay was a 7 to 1 under dog ,there was no significant change in the odds and no big payouts were reported,so nobody made a killing,so the people behind Liston gave up the richest prize in sports for what exactly?.List on had negligible actual boxing rounds under his belt coming in to the fight,two blow outs of Patterson ,he severely underestimated Ali got gassed out when he couldnt take hi m out quickly and quit when he started to take a beating,end of story,in the second fight Ithink he could have got up, but said balls to it,the mob owned Liston ,but what did they get out of him losing the fight? I t made more sense for him to win the return,Alis backers were of good reputation .who gained from Liston diving? Again no big money was paid out,who willingly gives up the title ,unless they are financially compensated ? Ali didnt need the Muslims to beat Sonny ,he boxed his ears off Liston was an outof condition aging fighter ,who never learned to cut off the ring ,Ali was his stylistic nightmare,Machen, on fast forward,Sonny tried in the first fight,probably tried for a bit in the second got tagged and thought "the hell with it",thats my take on it.

[McGrain]

Liston-Ali.

I am 100% sure that the second one was a down fix and i'm about 60% convinced that the first one was.

[mcvey]

For me it's that Ali was getting a pasting from Foreman.
That Hagler was robbed against Leonard,it was a close fight , if you liked Haglers constant aggression you voted for him ,if you preffered Leonard ,eyecatching flurries you pulled that way,I went for SRL ,just but it was a very close fight and either way it would not have been a robbery>

[McGrain]

Liston did not throw the first fight with Clay.

Liston didn't train! That is the most sensible explanation and covers everything.

Seems irrelevant to me. Liston wouldn't train if he knew the fix would in and he wouldn't train if he knew the fix WASN'T in and you are right.

It explains why he, if he did, have the solution rubbed on his gloves between rounds -desperation.

But the fighter never says, PUT THE SOLUTION ON MY GLOVES. The trainer does it. Possibly when signalled, but sensibley, not.


It explains why he tried to smash Clay while Clay was blinded.

But not why he went after the body - a sensible plan in round one - as opposed to missing the head which he did throughout the early parts of the fight.



It also explains the beating he took -if you are going to throw a fight, you don't get all banged up like that because there is no reason too unless you want an academy award for acting

The other reason is if you are told to take a dive in a specific round and are getting hit in the rounds before that round.

--and Liston proved in Maine that he was the worst actor ever.

Actually the terrible performance in Maine CAN be helped by a dive nearly gone wrong in the first fight.

"No chances. You're going down in one."

[mcvey]

There is no doubt heroin was found on the premises, but he simply didn't have enough in him to account for death, according to the pathologists. Why would they lie? Who would care that much to arrange a coverup?

Can you give a source on the syringe in the arm. This is the first time I have heard of it. I wonder if it could have stayed there after a weak of bloating and decomposition.

I would say that whatever is said of syringes or heroin, the autopsy report is by far the best evidence.
Liston had a syringe in him ,and he was scared of needles,hated injections,so figure it out.

[mcvey]

1 That Ken Norton has a glass chin when 3 of the 4 people who knocked him out are known for being the hardest punchers in heavyweight history not to mention Norton was done against Shavers and Cooney.
1 That Jake Lamotta has a great chin when most of the people he boxed against had no power.If you have 50 wins and only 15 knockouts like alot of the bums Lamotta fought then you have no power.If he was hit by the Roy Jones Jr's the McClellan's and the Julian Jackson's and stood up to them then you can say he has a great chin but since he didnt he should be known as a unskilled bum who beat women.
3. That Foreman had poor stamina in his prime when his record was
45-2 with 42 knockouts.Most of his knockouts came with in 3 rounds but if a guy boxed and moved like Peralta who Foreman went 10 rounds with 2 times before stopping Peralta in the 10th in their second fight then he showed he could go 10 when needed and come on strong. (Why base a fighter off 2 loses?I don't see anybody in here saying Tarver could knock out Ali because Henry Cooper a small 180 or so odd pound man almost knocked Ali out.)
4 That Rocky Marciano was skilled at all.In reality Marciano was the and is the most overrated pile of crap in any sport ever.Marciano was only 180 or so pounds but he was slower than most 300 pound fighters.He had no technique at all..basically just just threw one wild swing after another.Marciano's power at best was onlly good enough to knock out glass chin bums but even at that some times i took him 8 or 9 rounds to knockout fighters who were knocked out many times in 1 round by other fighters.Marciano was also dropped by Moore who was pushing 40 and who started his career at middleweight.Moore also was known for having a weak chin and was knocked out in a few rounds many times in his career yet it took Marciano 8 .If Moore could drop him then even a cowarly rapist like Tyson would destroy him.Tyson would be too big and fast and strong.But hey i guess having white skin puts you above other races doesn't it?Well only in boxing forums like this one.
Lamotta fought SRR 6 times and was never floored in any of the fights ,he fought big punchers like Lloyd Marshall,Bob Satterfield and Bob Murphy and never went down,the only man to ko him was Danny nardico ,at the end of his career ,you are either a wind up ,or not in possession of all your faculties.

[McGrain]

Lamotta fought SRR 6 times and was never floored in any of the fights ,he fought big punchers like Lloyd Marshall,Bob Satterfield and Bob Murphy and never went down,the only man to ko him was Danny nardico ,at the end of his career ,you are either a wind up ,or not in possession of all your faculties.

Marshall punched murderous, not big. I would bet that description fits Sattersfield too? I agree that SRR could be considered a big puncher all things considered.

LaMotta's chin is not really in doubt, I think...

[mcvey]

Marshall punched murderous, not big. I would bet that description fits Sattersfield too? I agree that SRR could be considered a big puncher all things considered.

LaMotta's chin is not really in doubt, I think...
Only by Mr Krieg,and I think it might be better not to respond to him in future.

[Bummy Davis]

1 That Ken Norton has a glass chin when 3 of the 4 people who knocked him out are known for being the hardest punchers in heavyweight history not to mention Norton was done against Shavers and Cooney.
1 That Jake Lamotta has a great chin when most of the people he boxed against had no power.If you have 50 wins and only 15 knockouts like alot of the bums Lamotta fought then you have no power.If he was hit by the Roy Jones Jr's the McClellan's and the Julian Jackson's and stood up to them then you can say he has a great chin but since he didnt he should be known as a unskilled bum who beat women.
3. That Foreman had poor stamina in his prime when his record was
45-2 with 42 knockouts.Most of his knockouts came with in 3 rounds but if a guy boxed and moved like Peralta who Foreman went 10 rounds with 2 times before stopping Peralta in the 10th in their second fight then he showed he could go 10 when needed and come on strong. (Why base a fighter off 2 loses?I don't see anybody in here saying Tarver could knock out Ali because Henry Cooper a small 180 or so odd pound man almost knocked Ali out.)
4 That Rocky Marciano was skilled at all.In reality Marciano was the and is the most overrated pile of crap in any sport ever.Marciano was only 180 or so pounds but he was slower than most 300 pound fighters.He had no technique at all..basically just just threw one wild swing after another.Marciano's power at best was onlly good enough to knock out glass chin bums but even at that some times i took him 8 or 9 rounds to knockout fighters who were knocked out many times in 1 round by other fighters.Marciano was also dropped by Moore who was pushing 40 and who started his career at middleweight.Moore also was known for having a weak chin and was knocked out in a few rounds many times in his career yet it took Marciano 8 .If Moore could drop him then even a cowarly rapist like Tyson would destroy him.Tyson would be too big and fast and strong.But hey i guess having white skin puts you above other races doesn't it?Well only in boxing forums like this one.


This has to be a JOKE or the guy writing it is:patsch

[McGrain]

Only by Mr Krieg,and I think it might be better not to respond to him in future.


McVey, I think you might be right.

[Bummy Davis]

McVey, I think you might be right.

DITTO, the guy is a troll

[ChrisPontius]

Liston-Ali.

I am 100% sure that the second one was a down fix and i'm about 60% convinced that the first one was.

Didn't we have long debate about the second fight with you ending up 55% convinced? What happened to those 5%??

[McGrain]

Didn't we have long debate about the second fight with you ending up 55% convinced? What happened to those 5%??

I re-read your posts Chris.

I overestimated your arguments. :D

[mcvey]

The questions you have to ask are-

Were any of the pivotal fights that established Carnera as a challenger to the title fixed?

Was the title fight fixed?

If not then you must give him his dues as a champion. Indeed a good one.
Carneras biggest wins before taking the title were over Striblingvia foul ,Godfrey via foull,both these fights have always been looked at dubiously,
Ace Clark mand Bombo Chevalier are presumed to have gone into the tank,Uzcudun was well over weight,but lost on merit,Meen and Gorman were legit,as were Levinsky Campolo,and Mckorkindale,the SChaaf fight we know about,Larry gains conceding tons of weight had no difficulty outpointing Primo,did Sharkey dive ,he allways denied it,yet he goes down from a man who couldnt hurt Gains or Loughran,how do you prove it either way?,4 fights where the opponent definitely didnt have the cuffs on are against Baer ,Louis ,and the 2 against Leroy Haynes ,and we know the results of them,I cant call Primo a good champ ,he was probably a good man,certainly a brave one,the last photos of him allmost a skeleton returning to Sequals are very sad,at least he made some money out of wrestling.

[Stonehands89]

Seems irrelevant to me. Liston wouldn't train if he knew the fix would in and he wouldn't train if he knew the fix WASN'T in and you are right.
This is a matter of probabilities and the convergence of variables. My statement that he didn't train for Clay stands as the hypothesis. It is evidenced by the subsequent points...

But the fighter never says, PUT THE SOLUTION ON MY GLOVES. The trainer does it. Possibly when signalled, but sensibley, not.
Who would be more likely in this case? A desperate, shady ex-con like Liston surely wouldn't. I think it was more likely that Liston, not Willie Reddish was the Panama Lewis that night. Liston was the boss in that camp in the reports I've seen. Secondly, the trainer is usually in line with the fix... he could screw up if he is not a confederate.

But not why he went after the body - a sensible plan in round one - as opposed to missing the head which he did throughout the early parts of the fight.
Clay had Liston missing even while blind. The only sensible thing is to hammer the body.

The other reason is if you are told to take a dive in a specific round and are getting hit in the rounds before that round.
Liston was getting hit because he was trying to catch up and getting in range. He wasn't waltzing in there which is what you would see a fall guy do until the round came.

Actually the terrible performance in Maine CAN be helped by a dive nearly gone wrong in the first fight.

"No chances. You're going down in one."
Perhaps.... but let's look at this now in toto:

1. Liston didn't train.
2. Liston tried to cheat his way to a win.
3. Liston had much facial damage. Unnecessary and academic abuse in a fix.
4. Liston quit on his stool. This anomalous. Usually the guy goes down at a punch or what appears to be a punch and takes the count. Even Lamotta didn't quit on his stool. Too suspicious.

...seems pretty clear when you look at it all. It comes together like a mystery solved, does it not?

[McGrain]

Who would be more likely in this case? A desperate, shady ex-con like Liston surely wouldn't. I think it was more likely that Liston, not Willie Reddish was the Panama Lewis that night. Liston was the boss in that camp in the reports I've seen. Secondly, the trainer is usually in line with the fix... he could screw up if he is not a confederate.

Liston was seen crying on his way to the ring. I think he got the word in the dressing room (though there is anecdotale eveidence to the contrary - though this can be explained away, if you wish, by the fact that ne knew he would have to take a dive "someday", which seemed to be the case). There are three posibilities

1 - Liston gave the order to smear the gloves, the fight was on the level

2 - Liston did not give the order to smear the glove, it was done without his knowledge, the fight was fixed

3 - Something got into Ali's eyes by way of a mistake.

One is a part of a unfixed fights reality, two and three is a part of the opposite reality. It's impossible to very which of the three is true.


Clay had Liston missing even while blind. The only sensible thing is to hammer the body.

Liston seemed to favour body shots in a fight where he was chasing (even after the Ali fights this seems to be the case), for obvious reasons. But not in this fight until it is finally MORE likely that he will land to the head. Now he attacks the body.

On it's own, nothing, but I noticed this years before I began to hear that this fight was under such serious suspicion at the time. It is interesting I think.


Liston was getting hit because he was trying to catch up and getting in range. He wasn't waltzing in there which is what you would see a fall guy do until the round came.

Liston is in there with a wonderful fighter who was bound to hit him. I would certainly submit that this was Liston's LEAST aggressive performance on film...I include fights that exsist after the Ali fights in this assesment.


4. Liston quit on his stool. This anomalous. Usually the guy goes down at a punch or what appears to be a punch and takes the count. Even Lamotta didn't quit on his stool. Too suspicious.

The judges show a pretty even fight on the cards. In the last round you hear people say, over and over again, "Ali hit Liston at will." Indeed he did. I wonder if Liston is not awaiting the finishing blow in this round only for it not to come. No lessons, I would guess, in how to fall down (we see that next time out). It's my opinion that Liston is waiting to be knocked out for real, rather than preparing to take a dive.

...seems pretty clear when you look at it all. It comes together like a mystery solved, does it not?

Briefly, outside the ring.

Liston had no manager of note at this time. He'd given a LOT of shares of himself away. The men who really ran him, of course, were Frankie Carbo, also known as the Gray, the closest thing America had to a master criminal at this time and Blinky Palermo - longtime boxing man and probably Carbo's underboss (the details are a bit fuzzy).

At the time of the first fight, Carbo was in custody and looking at life and Palermo - who might (probably not) have been interested enough in the game to protect Liston, was on the run, though free at the time of the first fight.

You got the two top mobsters involved in boxing looking at time and they own Liston, lock and stock. At this time, two top mobsters in this situation dismantle everything they own where the area's of ownership may be considered grey. Ownership of a man would qualify.

Liston represented a shitload of cash and a way to clean dirty money very quickly.

Also, the rank and file mafia had been getting murdered for years, where Liston is concerned - NOBODY was betting on Liston's opponents. This last point can't be stressed enough.

For me, a lot of this mafia stuff is the final peice of the puzzle for boxing people. It is pretty hard for me to imagine any other outcome considering the situation concerning the USA's most prominent mobsters and the odds involved.

[Stonehands89]

McGrain.

Liston's 'tears' may have been sweat. Or they have been fabricated by a story-teller. Who knows. Fact is, Ali always would have given Liston fits but what you saw as Liston not being busy enough is the same that I saw. You see it as a possible indication of a fix. I see a greater probability that it was lack of conditioning and an "oh shit" realization.

Carbo did indeed own him and Carbo was at the height of his powers in the early to mid 1950s. I think it would be fairly risky to manipulate a HW fight as late as 1963 when the feds were already breathing down all of their well-tailored necks... here's why:

Keep in mind the roof blew off of La Cosa Nostra in 1957 with the meeting of all the heads in Apalachia, NY. Before that, J. Edgar Hoover was denying the existence of the so-called Mafia. He foolishly made silly little bank robbers the prime targets of the FBI while Luciano and company set it all up in the early 1930s -totally in the shadows and totally unimpeded. That ended after you had a legion of old fat guys tossing stogies and running through the woods in three-piece suits while local police gave chase. Hoover amended his policy after that.

Carbo just got out of the clink in ~60 and then was called before the Senate pleading the 5th about 20 times about boxing. The next year he and Palermo were charged with conspiracy and a host of other charges. "Mr. Gray" was not a fool. To fix a HW championship so soon after all that would be tantamount to sheer recklessness. He was under heavy scrutiny and so wasn't boxing.

[McGrain]

McGrain.

Liston's 'tears' may have been sweat. Or they have been fabricated by a story-teller. Who knows.

I'll agree with you here. These things are possible and there's no point in insisting upon them.


Fact is, Ali always would have given Liston fits but what you saw as Liston not being busy enough is the same that I saw. You see it as a possible indication of a fix. I see a greater probability that it was lack of conditioning and an "oh shit" realization.

Again, I too feel Ali would always beat Liston, so I agree. Again, I have to agree with your view of the possible reality as being reasonable.

Carbo did indeed own him and Carbo was at the height of his powers in the early to mid 1950s. I think it would be fairly risky to manipulate a HW fight as late as 1963 when the feds were already breathing down all of their well-tailored necks.

Keep in mind the roof blew off of La Cosa Nostra in 1957 with the meeting of all the heads in Apalachia, NY. Before that, J. Edgar Hoover was denying the existence of the so-called Mafia. He foolishly made silly little bank robbers the prime targets of the FBI while Luciano and company set it all up in the early 1930s -totally in the shadows and totally unimpeded. That ended after you had a legion of old fat guys tossing stogies and running through the woods in three-piece suits while local police gave chase. Hoover amended his policy after that.

Carbo just got out of the clink in ~60 and then was called before the Senate pleading the 5th about 20 times about boxing. The next year he and Palermo were charged with conspiracy and a host of other charges. "Mr. Gray" was not a fool. To fix a HW championship so soon after all that would be tantamount to sheer recklessness. He was under heavy scrutiny and so wasn't boxing.

This is well thought out and beautifully put, but here I DON'T agree.

Here's why:

You are entirely accurate when you say the pressure was on for these guys in relation to boxing. The party was over. We agree, however, that these men own Liston.

Why boxing above all other sports? For these fixes? Because you can do it with one guy, and one guy only. Of course it was a risk. But the fight was worth millions. Possibly tens of millions. I was also a lovely, lovely way to square a lot of debts (the way out of town money moved on the fight is insane, bizzare even for a long odds heavyweight match up).

In your reality Carbo says "Ah, I have this deal that is worth millions and millions and will keep the pike from my toes...but it's too risky even though i'm already going to prison."

In my reality he says: "F*ck it, i'm done, and boxing is done for us too. Time to cash in an asset that will keep me and mine in clover forever regardless of what else happens. Keep the pike from my toes, too."

I think a lot of what we've discussed is actually tilted closer to on the up than fix (though not by much) but not this. I been through it and through it and i just can't imagine this playing any other way for a man already up to his neck in it.

[OLD FOGEY]

Liston had a syringe in him ,and he was scared of needles,hated injections,so figure it out.

Can you give solid evidence he had a needle in his arm. This is not mentioned by most sources, even ones which are not fastidious about facts.

Here is Nick Tosches from "The Devil and Sonny Liston"--

"I think he took too much dope and died. The fact that no gimmick was found means nothing. He could have shot up elsewhere."

Well, this statement does not square with a needle actually being found in his arm.

The autopsy revealed he died of natural causes. Heroin was in his house but the toxicology found only traces of codeine and morphine in his system (possible remnants of heroin use), but not in an amount sufficient to kill him.

I see no reason for the pathologists to lie or, for that matter, mob murderers to go to such extremes as fixing an autopsy report. If he died of a heroin overdose, the autopsy report would have said so.

The info on the autopsy report is from "The Devil and Sonny Liston". I assume it is accurate.

[Stonehands89]

This is well thought out and beautifully put, but here I DON'T agree.

Here's why:

You are entirely accurate when you say the pressure was on for these guys in relation to boxing. The party was over. We agree, however, that these men own Liston.

Why boxing above all other sports? For these fixes? Because you can do it with one guy, and one guy only. Of course it was a risk. But the fight was worth millions. Possibly tens of millions. I was also a lovely, lovely way to square a lot of debts (the way out of town money moved on the fight is insane, bizzare even for a long odds heavyweight match up).

In your reality Carbo says "Ah, I have this deal that is worth millions and millions and will keep the pike from my toes...but it's too risky even though i'm already going to prison."

In my reality he says: "F*ck it, i'm done, and boxing is done for us too. Time to cash in an asset that will keep me and mine in clover forever regardless of what else happens. Keep the pike from my toes, too."

I think a lot of what we've discussed is actually tilted closer to on the up than fix (though not by much) but not this. I been through it and through it and i just can't imagine this playing any other way for a man already up to his neck in it.
My reality doesn't have the image of Carbo giving up millions out of fear of a place he was already going. My reality has Carbo being unable to much of anything -especially in boxing because the heat was on and not only he but others higher up would be at risk.

Frankie Carbo was never made. This was because he was too close to Jews like Meyer Lansky who though working closely with Luciano and the rest, was not "in". I don't know if you if you know what "made" means but I'd bet you do -for those who don't, "made" means initiated into Cosa Nostra ("our thing" -the Italian mob). Carbo answered to the Lucchese family.

Carbo ain't fixing a HW championship fight without the okay. And Cosa Nostra didn't survive to get rich by not being careful and being patient. $$$ is a great motivator and so here's what I speculate: They waited til the rematch and cashed in on Liston and then retreated into the shadows. They knew that Liston didn't want to die so he would clam up no matter what. Liston knew Carbo and feared him. Carbo was a hitman for Murder, Inc in the 40s and 50s and actually was involved in the Bugsy Siegel hit in 47.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

That's Bugsy with a bullet in the eye. Bye bye! Anyway, they waited for more time for the headlines to calm down in the wake of the McClellan Committee (61) and Valachi's betrayal (63). The first bout was in 64, the rematch was in 65. It wasn't as lucrative as throwing the first bout would have been, but it was easy way to lead the cash cow to the slaughter -Liston was old and too controversial by that point anyway. Did Sonny make any money for the dive? Nope. He did what he was told.

There are reports that Liston trained like a demon for the rematch and looked good in camp. Dundee stopped by, heard "Night Train" watched Sonny train, got nervous and then Ali "got a hernia". The fight was postponed. Liston, frustrated and having lost momentum, started drinking and slacking again. Then the call came.

Postscript: Liston was owned by powerful figures connected to the Lucchese family out of NY --he sure as hell didn't take a dive for fear of the Black Muslims. Pure myth. The Black Muslims feared Cosa Nostra as did everyone else except for the Vatican and the U.S. Government.

[McGrain]

What a lovely post that was! Hooking up the printer as I speak.

As far as the New York boxing scene is concerned, there was no-one more powerful than our man, but you (clearly) know that. You see someone else stepping in and straightening him up, explaining a harsh reality. I really don't, not in the situation he was in. He was a "willful" character in a short spot, as we know and Liston was his property. Whilst your concerns about a broader view are fair and informed ones you really feel you can head a fix of at the pass with them? As we've agreed, this can be arranged as a one man fix without the interferance of outsiders. This last is crucial. This isn't Palermo taking no for an answer from Sugar at a diner for the sake of peace - this is a fighter who has been handled in part by the mob from the beginning. One who may, or may not, have been exposed as a rapist at any time by his handlers. No conferences, no messages, one order worth Millions (and more good will than any other single act could generate at that time).

You have given me something to think about though!

I think I may have given you something to think about too?

Put it this way; we're now swapping hypothesis about what ranking mafia men may or may not have done in a given situation. Not only do I feel this is the right place to find the answer, I also feel that this is a place where saying "yes" or "no" is a bit silly. The best you can come up with is a nice, shiney, "maybe".

[Stonehands89]

What a lovely post that was! Hooking up the printer as I speak.

As far as the New York boxing scene is concerned, there was no-one more powerful than our man, but you (clearly) know that. You see someone else stepping in and straightening him up, explaining a harsh reality. I really don't, not in the situation he was in. He was a "willful" character in a short spot, as we know and Liston was his property. Whilst your concerns about a broader view are fair and informed ones you really feel you can head a fix of at the pass with them? As we've agreed, this can be arranged as a one man fix without the interferance of outsiders. This last is crucial. This isn't Palermo taking no for an answer from Sugar at a diner for the sake of peace - this is a fighter who has been handled in part by the mob from the beginning. One who may, or may not, have been exposed as a rapist at any time by his handlers. No conferences, no messages, one order worth Millions (and more good will than any other single act could generate at that time).

You have given me something to think about though!

I think I may have given you something to think about too?

Put it this way; we're now swapping hypothesis about what ranking mafia men may or may not have done in a given situation. Not only do I feel this is the right place to find the answer, I also feel that this is a place where saying "yes" or "no" is a bit silly. The best you can come up with is a nice, shiney, "maybe".
Thanks for the nod, I always enjoy discussions like this with a man of knowledge.

In the late 40s, Carbo was made the "boxing czar" at the same meeting in Havana where he was given the contract to whack Siegel. It was a demonstration of the trust that he had earned -whacking a power and gaining serious influence in a serious and legit racket. He was what's called an "earner" -he was "connected", and that meant that he had to kick up a % upstairs for his work like any soldier. You are right that this stuff is shadowy -he may not have needed an okay for most of his 'capers' (always loved that word), but I suspect that the heat would have made it unwise to go forward without approval for something as big as that.

Here's why: if it went wrong and heads were going to roll, who's head is going to roll first? Palermo's. Carbo's next. Even before Sonny's because Sonny was to high profile.... they would wait on him and make it look like an accident. That's what happens, they're all for $$ but if it doesn't work and someone opens the door for the government to peer in by fault or no-fault -it doesn't matter. They go for a ride because the real powers will do anything to protect themselves....that's the business.

So Palermo would in all likelihood not make a move without Carbo and Carbo would also seek approval. It may or may not spare them if the heat comes on too strong, but they would definitely be dead without approval. Like any business, you can't operate with total independence because of 'conflict of interest' issues.

[McGrain]

In the late 40s, Carbo was made the "boxing czar" at the same meeting in Havana where he was given the contract to whack Siegel.

I didn't know that, cheers.

It was a demonstration of the trust that he had earned -whacking a power and gaining serious influence in a serious and legit racket. He was what's called an "earner" -he was "connected", and that meant that he had to kick up a % upstairs for his work like any soldier. You are right that this stuff is shadowy -he may not have needed an okay for most of his 'capers' (always loved that word), but I suspect that the heat would have made it unwise to go forward without approval for something as big as that.

Firsly, I think you underestimate Carbo and where he was by that date. He may have been stuck mumbling at Robinson's cadillac post LaMotta VI but by this time Palermo was doing, basically, what Carbo used to do. Carbo had promoted himself.

Secondly, it's important to understand Carbo's specific position at that time. If Carbo had flipped then it would be girlfirends no more for a lot of very important guys, and he was high profile enought that he wouldn't have had to do time at all (possibly).

I''m sure you wouldn't dispute that a Liston dive was in the pipe and that that dive would be worth millions and probably millions more. I'd sumbit for your consideration this idea - in such a situation it's harder to take away the dive than it otherwise would have been. In the normal course of events, yes, it's possible (though unlikely) that he could have been overuled. But honour was from the lower level guys in this organisation. Anyone above captian had to be appeased when he went away. If the plan was in for Carbo to have to lift it it's my opinion that something very big would have to replace it.


So Palermo would in all likelihood not make a move without Carbo

Yeah, i'd say that's a given.

[mcvey]

I didn't know that, cheers.



Firsly, I think you underestimate Carbo and where he was by that date. He may have been stuck mumbling at Robinson's cadillac post LaMotta VI but by this time Palermo was doing, basically, what Carbo used to do. Carbo had promoted himself.

Secondly, it's important to understand Carbo's specific position at that time. If Carbo had flipped then it would be girlfirends no more for a lot of very important guys, and he was high profile enought that he wouldn't have had to do time at all (possibly).

I''m sure you wouldn't dispute that a Liston dive was in the pipe and that that dive would be worth millions and probably millions more. I'd sumbit for your consideration this idea - in such a situation it's harder to take away the dive than it otherwise would have been. In the normal course of events, yes, it's possible (though unlikely) that he could have been overuled. But honour was from the lower level guys in this organisation. Anyone above captian had to be appeased when he went away. If the plan was in for Carbo to have to lift it it's my opinion that something very big would have to replace it.




Yeah, i'd say that's a given.
Have you evidence of massive pay outs at betting offices to confirm your assertionthat "a dive would be worth millions",Ive allways understood that the odds didnt fluctuate to any marked degree,and that the bookies reported no heavy losses on the fight.

[McGrain]

Have you evidence of massive pay outs at betting offices to confirm your assertionthat "a dive would be worth millions",Ive allways understood that the odds didnt fluctuate to any marked degree,and that the bookies reported no heavy losses on the fight.

There are two main scoops here.

The first one comes for the guys on the ground who, as they always did, took a massive raft of bets on Liston's opponents which there would be no pay out on. See what I mean? Grassroots Mafia sponsored/protected bookies (not the kind that keep financial records unfortunatley) had been losing money on Liston for a decade. Here was a lovely opportunity to win on him instead.

The second would be betting on a sure thing. But no, I don't have any evidence that this happened. (Obviously it happened - I mean even if the fix wasn't in, some people would have bet on Ali, but you see what I mean).

As you say, the odds held - if the word went out (i'm not 100% that it would have) odds would certainly hold off the back of that word.

There was a lot of "out of town money" on Ali in the last few days in up front bookies. How these two facts would have interacted i'm not sure.

It offered a grand chance to clean up dirty money, too. That end of things is to complicated for me and i've certainly never insisted upon it, but I feel it's worth a mention.

I'll retract "millions" if you like, I may be overstating. Let's agree that if it happened, it would be worth a lot of money and good will to a few people.

[Stonehands89]

Firsly, I think you underestimate Carbo and where he was by that date. He may have been stuck mumbling at Robinson's cadillac post LaMotta VI but by this time Palermo was doing, basically, what Carbo used to do. Carbo had promoted himself.

Secondly, it's important to understand Carbo's specific position at that time. If Carbo had flipped then it would be girlfirends no more for a lot of very important guys, and he was high profile enought that he wouldn't have had to do time at all (possibly).

I''m sure you wouldn't dispute that a Liston dive was in the pipe and that that dive would be worth millions and probably millions more. I'd sumbit for your consideration this idea - in such a situation it's harder to take away the dive than it otherwise would have been. In the normal course of events, yes, it's possible (though unlikely) that he could have been overuled. But honour was from the lower level guys in this organisation. Anyone above captian had to be appeased when he went away. If the plan was in for Carbo to have to lift it it's my opinion that something very big would have to replace it.
Have you seen "Goodfellas"? Carbo was probably alot like Jimmy Conway (Deniro's character), who's actual name was Jimmy Burke if my memory is up and running. Burke was not made -he was 1/2 Irish, but he made alot of friends because he made alot of money that he paid in tribute. The Lufthansa heist, which was the biggest take til that time, was his brainchild. Millions were made. Millions upon millions. He had the kind of influence that we agree that Carbo had, but he wasn't exactly independent all the time -his stuff involved made guys and he knew too much, so he had to get approval for certain things.

I find your scenerio as possible, but mine as likely. You see the reverse as more true. Fair enough! Nick Tosches ("The Devil and Sonny Liston") agrees with you, incidentally.

[Blacc Jesus]

Rocky Marciano.
:lol:

[Dempsey1238]

And what myth is Rocky Marciano?? What myths about him are false??

[TBooze]

And what myth is Rocky Marciano?? What myths about him are false??

Well the biggest one would be that he was undefeated post March 1947;)

[Dempsey1238]

As a pro he was.

[Ted Spoon]

The biggest myth in boxing is the projected theory of circa 1960 + superiority in fighters; physically and technically.

[TBooze]

As a pro he was.

Depends what standard you use, as a paid fighter he lost and after his official pro debut he lost...

[Dempsey1238]

Come on now, ATMS get paid also. It was very comman back in thsos days. You think Louis complete in the ATM golden gloves for free??

[TBooze]

Come on now, ATMS get paid also. It was very comman back in thsos days. You think Louis complete in the ATM golden gloves for free??

Louis never claimed to beat undefeated at the end of his career...

[Dempsey1238]

Because he LOST as a pro to Schemling, Charles and of couse Marciano.
Marciano never had that happen in a PRO fight. With Pro rules and status.

[McGrain]

I find your scenerio as possible, but mine as likely. You see the reverse as more true. Fair enough! Nick Tosches ("The Devil and Sonny Liston") agrees with you, incidentally.

As you say.

:good

[TBooze]

Because he LOST as a pro to Schemling, Charles and of couse Marciano.
Marciano never had that happen in a PRO fight. With Pro rules and status.

Like I said, it depends what standards you use, a lot of the aura around Marciano is that '0', and the dictionary definition for Professional is:

Following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain

Playing Devil's Advocate, Marciano did gain financially in fights that he lost, there is little disputing that.

Guess it depends how you spin it.;)

[mochabuzz]

Biggest Myth:
That a young ali (62-67) was a better fighter than the 1971 version.

[McGrain]

Biggest Myth:
That a young ali (62-67) was a better fighter than the 1971 version.

Well I wouldn't mind hearing about why where this one is concerned.

[mochabuzz]

Well I wouldn't mind hearing about why where this one is concerned.
WTF? :huh

[McGrain]

WTF? :huh


I would like to hear why the idea that '67 Ali is better than '71 Ali is a myth.

[OLD FOGEY]

Depends what standard you use, as a paid fighter he lost and after his official pro debut he lost...

Pay is not the standard. The standard is it a professional or amateur fight under professional or amateur rules.

[mochabuzz]

I would like to hear why the idea that '67 Ali is better than '71 Ali is a myth.
Experience and ring-smarts outweigh youth/speed. Simply put, he was a much smarter fighter when he was older than when he was 24, 25..
Ali was a lot more calm and strategic in his comeback fights against Quarry & Bonavena... He showed real patience, maturity and durability in both of those fights. That is why i was so shocked when Frazier beat him in 1971.

Youth & speed are so so overrated... just look at B-Hop! He no where near as quick & agile as he used to be, but he is still on the top of his game b/c he has so much experience & patience in the ring.

[McGrain]

Experience and ring-smarts outweigh youth/speed. Simply put, he was a much smarter fighter when he was older than when he was 24, 25..
Ali was a lot more calm and strategic in his comeback fights against Quarry & Bonavena... He showed real patience, maturity and durability in both of those fights. That is why i was so shocked when Frazier beat him 1971.

Youth & speed are so so overrated... just look at B-Hop! He no where near as quick & agile as he used to be, but he is still on the top of his game b/c he has so much experience & patience in the ring.


But the bottom line is in 67 he looked absolutley magical and destroyed Terrell and beat up Folley, whilst in 71 he got battered by Frazier and won three others. The experience he piled up between Folley and Frazier was two fights, I think.

[Dempsey1238]

Like I said, it depends what standards you use, a lot of the aura around Marciano is that '0', and the dictionary definition for Professional is:

Following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain

Playing Devil's Advocate, Marciano did gain financially in fights that he lost, there is little disputing that.

Guess it depends how you spin it.;)

It was not just the 0 that made Marciano great. Its his fights with Walcott, Moore, and Ezzard Charles as champion that made him great imo. These fights will never beforgoting, and were pretty action pack fights that are still talk about today.

Comeing back to ko Walcott to win the title after the first round knockdown, Also fighting 4 rounds blind.

His 2 blood baths with Ezzard Charles. And his victory over Archie Moore who was rampageing though the heavyweight ranks at the time. Thats what made him great as a fighter imo. Brain Nelson or some prospect can be 48-0 ete. But if they have not relly been in some real drag out war, We wont know how great they are. Nelson couldnt get by a old Holmes(Yeah I know Nelson got the victory, BAD scoreing) But this fights are the meat and grain of his greatness imo.

[Doppleganger]

But the bottom line is in 67 he looked absolutley magical and destroyed Terrell and beat up Folley, whilst in 71 he got battered by Frazier and won three others. The experience he piled up between Folley and Frazier was two fights, I think.
Yeah, this isn't a myth IMO, '67 Ali was better. The '71 version sacrificed speed and relied more on his exceptional durability to eek out results.

[JohnThomas1]

Yeah, this isn't a myth IMO, '67 Ali was better. The '71 version sacrificed speed and relied more on his exceptional durability to eek out results.

Totally agree with you and Master McGrain. The Ali who went into exile was the greatest version IMO. 3 years without fighting at all when he was peaking or even peak certain didn't progress his career any. I don't think he lacked the power or strength of latter heavier days either, and he sure didn't need as much strength given his movement and general elusiveness of 67. He could still put the hurt on too. Basically he had lost some speed, sharpness and stamina and once he had to stand flat footed a bit more he came back to the pack a little. He could have used some extra elusiveness and stamina against Joe and there's no way IMO Norton beats the 67 Ali.

[McGrain]

Totally agree with you and Master McGrain.


If ONLY you could change your name on this site...

[Dempsey1238]

how can we know for SURE that exile Ali was the best. Maybe he lose something in the 3 years and lose. Maybe the break did Ali good?? He sure was hitting HARDER post exile than he ever was in the 1960's. I dont think light hitting Ali would ever had busted up Joe Fraizer's face the way he did it in the 70's. Both Ali's have there strenghts and weakness.

[JohnThomas1]

If ONLY you could change your name on this site...

I thought you'd like it :lol:

[McGrain]

how can we know for SURE that exile Ali was the best..

Of course, it's possible that that is not the case. But it's certainly my opinion and I would always maintain that there was less than enough evidence to call that opinon a myth.

[JohnThomas1]

how can we know for SURE that exile Ali was the best. Maybe he lose something in the 3 years and lose. Maybe the break did Ali good?? He sure was hitting HARDER post exile than he ever was in the 1960's. I dont think light hitting Ali would ever had busted up Joe Fraizer's face the way he did it in the 70's. Both Ali's have there strenghts and weakness.

I think the whole Ali hit so much harder post exile thing has turned a bit mythical. Do you realise Ali was a mere 2, 2 1/2 pounds heavier than the Ali that hammered Terrell and Williams? The difference was that Ali had to mix it up a lot more due to diminishing speed and stamina. He had to stand and fight a guy like Frazier (not to mention Norton) more than he would have had to and in doing so dished out more punishment whilst taking more on board himself. Ali post Foreman was a shell of what he had been. Even in the Foreman fight it was more guts, chin and tactical brilliance and adaption that got him the money more so than peak quotient. It's extraordinary Ali could still hold the title 14 years after tying Sonny Liston in knots given he'd been sliding and struggling on and off for years. Frazier's run was a mere 5 years comparatively, Holmes seemed to reign forever but it was still only 7 years. Tyson had a mere 4 years, Holyfield had about a decade, Lewis too had a decade and Loius had a brilliant 11 odd years.

[Robbi]

I think the whole Ali hit so much harder post exile thing has turned a bit mythical. Do you realise Ali was a mere 2, 2 1/2 pounds heavier than the Ali that hammered Terrell and Williams? The difference was that Ali had to mix it up a lot more due to diminishing speed and stamina. He had to stand and fight a guy like Frazier (not to mention Norton) more than he would have had to and in doing so dished out more punishment whilst taking more on board himself. Ali post Foreman was a shell of what he had been. Even in the Foreman fight it was more guts, chin and tactical brilliance and adaption that got him the money more so than peak quotient. It's extraordinary Ali could still hold the title 14 years after tying Sonny Liston in knots given he'd been sliding and struggling on and off for years. Frazier's run was a mere 5 years comparatively, Holmes seemed to reign forever but it was still only 7 years. Tyson had a mere 4 years, Holyfield had about a decade, Lewis too had a decade and Loius had a brilliant 11 odd years.

I thought Ali's reflexes were the main part of his attributes he lost the most after exile. It was his ability to make an opponent miss, then make him pay which made him so special in his prime. Speed also plays a part in having the ability to defend and get off with punches. Ali's terrific upperbody movement was never quite the same after his exile either. His speed was still lightning, but not as consistent. He was always very quick his his prime during the 60's, with that type of speed only shown in flashes during the early 70's.

I really liked his finish against Lyle in 1975. Ali was not as bad a hooker as people make him out to be. Those left hooks were thrown in rapid succession when he had Lyle on the ropes after driving him back with a right hand from the centre of the ring.

Ive always been an Ali fan, but much prefer watching Holmes.

[Street Lethal]

I'm not sure if it's the biggest myth, but one that seems to have gotten my attention for quite a while now (a few years), is the one that claims that the "pound for pound" term was coined or invented for Robinson.
This is true. I remember reading an article from the New York Times somebody forwarded me about a fighter long before Robinson was who was described as the best "pound for pound." I think it was middleweight Freddie Steele, but I may be wrong about that. I know for sure that it was well before Robinson.

[Dempsey1238]

Fitz in his hay day was describe as a pound for pound great. They even used the words "Pound for Pound to describe Fitz.

And that was a good 40 years before Robinson.

[mochabuzz]

how can we know for SURE that exile Ali was the best. Maybe he lose something in the 3 years and lose. Maybe the break did Ali good?? He sure was hitting HARDER post exile than he ever was in the 1960's. I dont think light hitting Ali would ever had busted up Joe Fraizer's face the way he did it in the 70's. Both Ali's have there strenghts and weakness.
:happy
Alright... someone else agrees with me... kind of.
I feel validated:cool:

[mcvey]

Totally agree with you and Master McGrain. The Ali who went into exile was the greatest version IMO. 3 years without fighting at all when he was peaking or even peak certain didn't progress his career any. I don't think he lacked the power or strength of latter heavier days either, and he sure didn't need as much strength given his movement and general elusiveness of 67. He could still put the hurt on too. Basically he had lost some speed, sharpness and stamina and once he had to stand flat footed a bit more he came back to the pack a little. He could have used some extra elusiveness and stamina against Joe and there's no way IMO Norton beats the 67 Ali.
George Chuvalo said he noticed the difference,,said Ali had lost a step or two and that his punches didnt come so precisely or often.

[JohnThomas1]

I thought Ali's reflexes were the main part of his attributes he lost the most after exile. It was his ability to make an opponent miss, then make him pay which made him so special in his prime.

Exactly mate, i labeled this "sharpness" in my original post.

[JohnThomas1]

George Chuvalo said he noticed the difference,,said Ali had lost a step or two and that his punches didnt come so precisely or often.

Great point!

[Minotauro]

That Willie Pep won a round without throwing a single punch.

[TBooze]

Pay is not the standard. The standard is it a professional or amateur fight under professional or amateur rules.

Not a dictionary standard though;)

Old man History will look back and may in due course decide an obscure meaning of the word designed only for certain sports, does not hold up over time, thus Marciano was not undefeated as a professional boxer.

[Titan1]

My reality doesn't have the image of Carbo giving up millions out of fear of a place he was already going. My reality has Carbo being unable to much of anything -especially in boxing because the heat was on and not only he but others higher up would be at risk.

Frankie Carbo was never made. This was because he was too close to Jews like Meyer Lansky who though working closely with Luciano and the rest, was not "in". I don't know if you if you know what "made" means but I'd bet you do -for those who don't, "made" means initiated into Cosa Nostra ("our thing" -the Italian mob). Carbo answered to the Lucchese family.

Carbo ain't fixing a HW championship fight without the okay. And Cosa Nostra didn't survive to get rich by not being careful and being patient. $$$ is a great motivator and so here's what I speculate: They waited til the rematch and cashed in on Liston and then retreated into the shadows. They knew that Liston didn't want to die so he would clam up no matter what. Liston knew Carbo and feared him. Carbo was a hitman for Murder, Inc in the 40s and 50s and actually was involved in the Bugsy Siegel hit in 47.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

That's Bugsy with a bullet in the eye. Bye bye! Anyway, they waited for more time for the headlines to calm down in the wake of the McClellan Committee (61) and Valachi's betrayal (63). The first bout was in 64, the rematch was in 65. It wasn't as lucrative as throwing the first bout would have been, but it was easy way to lead the cash cow to the slaughter -Liston was old and too controversial by that point anyway. Did Sonny make any money for the dive? Nope. He did what he was told.

There are reports that Liston trained like a demon for the rematch and looked good in camp. Dundee stopped by, heard "Night Train" watched Sonny train, got nervous and then Ali "got a hernia". The fight was postponed. Liston, frustrated and having lost momentum, started drinking and slacking again. Then the call came.

Postscript: Liston was owned by powerful figures connected to the Lucchese family out of NY --he sure as hell didn't take a dive for fear of the Black Muslims. Pure myth. The Black Muslims feared Cosa Nostra as did everyone else except for the Vatican and the U.S. Government.

You sure about that?

[Stonehands89]

You sure about that?

Sure about what? It's a long post. I'll guess you meant to ask if I was sure about the Black Muslims not having the clout to intimidate cosa nostra or connected guys. I'm sure.

[McGrain]

. I'll guess you meant to ask if I was sure about the Black Muslims not having the clout to intimidate cosa nostra or connected guys. I'm sure.


Here, you and I can agree.

[Titan1]

But they wouldn't probably try to muscle in on Clay either, I have a feeling.

[GrizzleX]

That Meldrick Taylor was wrongfully stopped in the first Chavez fight.

[True Writer]

1 That Ken Norton has a glass chin when 3 of the 4 people who knocked him out are known for being the hardest punchers in heavyweight history not to mention Norton was done against Shavers and Cooney.
1 That Jake Lamotta has a great chin when most of the people he boxed against had no power.If you have 50 wins and only 15 knockouts like alot of the bums Lamotta fought then you have no power.If he was hit by the Roy Jones Jr's the McClellan's and the Julian Jackson's and stood up to them then you can say he has a great chin but since he didnt he should be known as a unskilled bum who beat women.
3. That Foreman had poor stamina in his prime when his record was
45-2 with 42 knockouts.Most of his knockouts came with in 3 rounds but if a guy boxed and moved like Peralta who Foreman went 10 rounds with 2 times before stopping Peralta in the 10th in their second fight then he showed he could go 10 when needed and come on strong. (Why base a fighter off 2 loses?I don't see anybody in here saying Tarver could knock out Ali because Henry Cooper a small 180 or so odd pound man almost knocked Ali out.)
4 That Rocky Marciano was skilled at all.In reality Marciano was the and is the most overrated pile of crap in any sport ever.Marciano was only 180 or so pounds but he was slower than most 300 pound fighters.He had no technique at all..basically just just threw one wild swing after another.Marciano's power at best was onlly good enough to knock out glass chin bums but even at that some times i took him 8 or 9 rounds to knockout fighters who were knocked out many times in 1 round by other fighters.Marciano was also dropped by Moore who was pushing 40 and who started his career at middleweight.Moore also was known for having a weak chin and was knocked out in a few rounds many times in his career yet it took Marciano 8 .If Moore could drop him then even a cowarly rapist like Tyson would destroy him.Tyson would be too big and fast and strong.But hey i guess having white skin puts you above other races doesn't it?Well only in boxing forums like this one.


To be honest I've seen some bad posts on this site but I think this guy takes the biscuit!

[C. M. Clay II]

To be honest I've seen some bad posts on this site but I think this guy takes the biscuit!

He used to post on boxing scene forums as TommyHearns804, BigGForeman, gforeman1949, and lmnorw, and got banned all 4 times. If he's banned here, he will no doubt come back as someone else.

[Blacc Jesus]

He used to post on boxing scene forums as TommyHearns804, BigGForeman, gforeman1949, and lmnorw, and got banned all 4 times. If he's banned here, he will no doubt come back as someone else.
:lol: damn

[Duodenum]

1 That Ken Norton has a glass chin when 3 of the 4 people who knocked him out are known for being the hardest punchers in heavyweight history not to mention Norton was done against Shavers and Cooney.I think he had a passable chin, but didn't respond well psychologically to being hit hard. When he was hurt, he froze. (I'll never forget the look on Ken's face, slumped in the corner after Coonet finished him, when his cornerman turned his head up, and the expression of blank, shellshocked fear on his visage.)
1 That Jake Lamotta has a great chin when most of the people he boxed against had no power.If you have 50 wins and only 15 knockouts like alot of the bums Lamotta fought then you have no power.If he was hit by the Roy Jones Jr's the McClellan's and the Julian Jackson's and stood up to them then you can say he has a great chin but since he didnt he should be known as a unskilled bum who beat women.LaMotta himself might not completely disagree with you on this point. He has discussed the form of "self-hypnosis" he used to convince himself of his imperviousness to hard punches, but also how he'd imperceptibly give a fraction of an inch when he saw he was about to be hit, muffling the full impact of the blow. (A knack which SRL apparently confirmed Jake had.) But this hardly constitutes evidence that he did not have a great chin.3. That Foreman had poor stamina in his prime when his record was 45-2 with 42 knockouts.Most of his knockouts came with in 3 rounds but if a guy boxed and moved like Peralta who Foreman went 10 rounds with 2 times before stopping Peralta in the 10th in their second fight then he showed he could go 10 when needed and come on strong. (Why base a fighter off 2 loses?I don't see anybody in here saying Tarver could knock out Ali because Henry Cooper a small 180 or so odd pound man almost knocked Ali out.)Actually, I was rather impressed that Foreman pounded on Ali for as long as he did, with as much power as he sustained. It was not a close fight as I saw it, but George really didn't fight the stupid match he's been described as having been duped into. He wailed away at the exposed left side of Muhammad's body with massive right hand slider bombs, and it wouldn't have been rational to expect that the older and less mobile Ali could have sustained that abuse and still have the energy to floor the granite chinned Foreman for the full count. Against Jimmy Young, that may have been nothing more than a matter of him foolishly disregarding Gil Clancy's insistence that he be in the heat and humidity of Puerto Rico for at least three weeks to get acclimated to the environment there. (Perhaps Jimmy would have beaten George anyways, but we later saw what happened to Dokes when he made the same error before the first meeting with Ocasio.)4 That Rocky Marciano was skilled at all.In reality Marciano was the and is the most overrated pile of crap in any sport ever.Marciano was only 180 or so pounds but he was slower than most 300 pound fighters.He had no technique at all..basically just just threw one wild swing after another.Marciano's power at best was onlly good enough to knock out glass chin bums but even at that some times i took him 8 or 9 rounds to knockout fighters who were knocked out many times in 1 round by other fighters.Marciano was also dropped by Moore who was pushing 40 and who started his career at middleweight.Moore also was known for having a weak chin and was knocked out in a few rounds many times in his career yet it took Marciano 8 .If Moore could drop him then even a cowarly rapist like Tyson would destroy him.Tyson would be too big and fast and strong.But hey i guess having white skin puts you above other races doesn't it?Well only in boxing forums like this one.Rocky may have been more crudely unrefined nearer the outset of his career, but his ten round performances against Lowry and LaStarza were credible showings against skilled and experienced veterans. His double hook knockout of Kid Mathews was a marquee display of sudden lightning swiftness, and he was the only one to ever take Mathews out in Harry's long and productive career. Rocky's vastly superior handspeed overwhelmed Rex Layne, and his left hook was also good enough to secure his first knockdown of Joe Louis. (And Rocky's development of his hook was the thing that surprised and impressed Louis most about his performance.)

As you describe Tyson as a cowardly rapist, Rocky can hardly be described as being cowardly about anything. Marciano never had his bell rung, and simply trained too hard to ever give up. The Rock should have been utterly demoralized going into the thirteenth and final round, having experienced Walcott taking his best shots to that point, after being floored early, and having the shit getting beat out of him. It was expected that Walcott had it won on the scorecards, but Marciano never gave up, never stopped coming, and never stopped succeeding. Tyson had nothing like the ticker in Rocky's torso. Tyson would have had to render unconsious an opponent who never even had his bell rung. Marciano proved against Charles in their first go that he never gave up, never got discouraged or frustrated, and couldn't be demoralized when somebody did stand up to the best he had to offer.

Tyson ultimately proved to be an easily frustrated quitter. So far as Marciano taking more rounds to finish off particular opponents faster than others were able to, I do believe that his punching power has been somewhat overrated. Nor did he put punches together as well as a Joe Louis. But he was a physically powerful and persistent swarmer with a low center of gravity who generated punching force coming up,
never stopped attacking, and never stopped winning. The only two unavenged losses Archie Moore sustained through the remainder of his career were against Patterson and Ali. (And Ali was not able to land him for the count.)

As far as Marciano's ethicity is concerned, this is one fiery Latino I would definitely not sell short. He was absolutely irrepressible.

[C. M. Clay II]

I think he had a passable chin, but didn't respond well psychologically to being hit hard. When he was hurt, he froze. (I'll never forget the look on Ken's face, slumped in the corner after Coonet finished him, when his cornerman turned his head up, and the expression of blank, shellshocked fear on his visage.)LaMotta himself might not completely disagree with you on this point. He has discussed the form of "self-hypnosis" he used to convince himself of his imperviousness to hard punches, but also how he'd imperceptibly give a fraction of an inch when he saw he was about to be hit, muffling the full impact of the blow. (A knack which SRL apparently confirmed Jake had.) But this hardly constitutes evidence that he did not have a great chin.Actually, I was rather impressed that Foreman pounded on Ali for as long as he did, with as much power as he sustained. It was not a close fight as I saw it, but George really didn't fight the stupid match he's been described as having been duped into. He wailed away at the exposed left side of Muhammad's body with massive right hand slider bombs, and it wouldn't have been rational to expect that the older and less mobile Ali could have sustained that abuse and still have the energy to floor the granite chinned Foreman for the full count. Against Jimmy Young, that may have been nothing more than a matter of him foolishly disregarding Gil Clancy's insistence that he be in the heat and humidity of Puerto Rico for at least three weeks to get acclimated to the environment there. (Perhaps Jimmy would have beaten George anyways, but we later saw what happened to Dokes when he made the same error before the first meeting with Ocasio.)Rocky may have been more crudely unrefined nearer the outset of his career, but his ten round performances against Lowry and LaStarza were credible showings against skilled and experienced veterans. His double hook knockout of Kid Mathews was a marquee display of sudden lightning swiftness, and he was the only one to ever take Mathews out in Harry's long and productive career. Rocky's vastly superior handspeed overwhelmed Rex Layne, and his left hook was also good enough to secure his first knockdown of Joe Louis. (And Rocky's development of his hook was the thing that surprised and impressed Louis most about his performance.)

As you describe Tyson as a cowardly rapist, Rocky can hardly be described as being cowardly about anything. Marciano never had his bell rung, and simply trained too hard to ever give up. The Rock should have been utterly demoralized going into the thirteenth and final round, having experienced Walcott taking his best shots to that point, after being floored early, and having the shit getting beat out of him. It was expected that Walcott had it won on the scorecards, but Marciano never gave up, never stopped coming, and never stopped succeeding. Tyson had nothing like the ticker in Rocky's torso. Tyson would have had to render unconsious an opponent who never even had his bell rung. Marciano proved against Charles in their first go that he never gave up, never got discouraged or frustrated, and couldn't be demoralized when somebody did stand up to the best he had to offer.

Tyson ultimately proved to be an easily frustrated quitter. So far as Marciano taking more rounds to finish off particular opponents faster than others were able to, I do believe that his punching power has been somewhat overrated. Nor did he put punches together as well as a Joe Louis. But he was a physically powerful and persistent swarmer with a low center of gravity who generated punching force coming up,
never stopped attacking, and never stopped winning. The only two unavenged losses Archie Moore sustained through the remainder of his career were against Patterson and Ali. (And Ali was not able to land him for the count.)

As far as Marciano's ethicity is concerned, this is one fiery Latino I would definitely not sell short. He was absolutely irrepressible.

So you actually agree with what he says?

[Duodenum]

So you actually agree with what he says?If you read my post carefully, you'll pick out that I do not. However, I don't think it's the worst post I've seen either. (At least not typed by someone other than me.)

It takes a good level of skill to execute the sort of double hook Marciano flattened Mathews with, and while Norton didn't have the greatest chin, he wasn't exactly Floyd Patterson either.

The things I said about Marciano hardly equate to calling him an overrated pile of crap, and Foreman did look comfortable going ten rounds with Peralta.

Regarding LaMotta, I would not classify opponents like Robinson, Bob Satterfield, Bob Murphy or Billy Fox as powderpuff punchers, and none of them was ever able to floor Jake.

[Bokaj]

Spot on.
I am also astonished by the number of people who think both Liston-Ali fights were on the level.

I'm surpised that no one talks about the liniment in Ali's eyes in the first fight when this subjects comes up. It is said (in the book "King of the World" for example) that one of Liston's cornermen claimed Liston rubbed the liniment in Ali's eyes to blind him, and that he had done so also with Machen and Williams. I would say this is stronger evidence against Liston throwing the fight than any evidence I've heard supporting it.

For me it's simple. Liston was exhausted after the sixth round and knew that Ali probably would knock him out as predicted in rd 8. To avoid the humilation he quit. Not that mysterious, really.