Best overall grappler out of these fighters

[Canibus81]

Who you think grapples the best out of these guys.

[chimba]

Rickson for pure grappling...

[El Matador]

I would say Rickson Gracie is the best of the bunch hands down.

[Canibus81]

I'm suprised nobody said Penn.

[chimba]

I'm suprised nobody said Penn.

Pure grappling Ricksons better..mma thats a diff story

[jimmie]

Rickson but with the current fighters id go with BJ Penn his TD defense IMO sets him apart from the rest.

[sugarngold]

Rickson is the best pure grappler.

[ufoalf]

I'm suprised nobody said Penn.

Penn has as much to learn to be Rickson's level as I do to become a black belt in bjj.

[Beebs]

Penn has as much to learn to be Rickson's level as I do to become a black belt in bjj.
The gap between BJ's wrestling and Rickson's is far bigger than any that might exist between their BJJ, and this is overall grappler, not BJJ in a gi grappler.

What is "pure" grappling? To me using grappling to win a fight is the true purpose of it, that makes it more pure.

Fedor and BJ are the best grapplers out of the group because they win fights with their grappling.

And there is no way the current Rickson is the greatest anything anymore, hes 50.

[ufoalf]

The gap between BJ's wrestling and Rickson's is far bigger than any that might exist between their BJJ, and this is overall grappler, not BJJ in a gi grappler.
Says you based on??? Nothing.

[ufoalf]

And don't bring the age into equation. Otherwise I'm better than Helio Gracie.

[Cameron]

Rickson but with the current fighters id go with BJ Penn his TD defense IMO sets him apart from the rest.

bj has good and unconventional tk defence buy over all i think gsp has better takedown defence. but i agree that rickson is the better grappler...... why the fuck is randy there?

[Cameron]

The gap between BJ's wrestling and Rickson's is far bigger than any that might exist between their BJJ, and this is overall grappler, not BJJ in a gi grappler.

What is "pure" grappling? To me using grappling to win a fight is the true purpose of it, that makes it more pure.

Fedor and BJ are the best grapplers out of the group because they win fights with their grappling.

And there is no way the current Rickson is the greatest anything anymore, hes 50.

his grappling is still better. palo filho trained with him and said he would still beat the top fighteres in mma today. also rickson finished all of his fights with a sub. rickson is way better dosnt matter if it gi or no go. bj would get smashed by rickson. fedor probably would as well.

[Polymath]

his grappling is still better. palo filho trained with him and said he would still beat the top fighteres in mma today. also rickson finished all of his fights with a sub. rickson is way better dosnt matter if it gi or no go. bj would get smashed by rickson. fedor probably would as well.

OK.

[chimba]

his grappling is still better. palo filho trained with him and said he would still beat the top fighteres in mma today. also rickson finished all of his fights with a sub. rickson is way better dosnt matter if it gi or no go. bj would get smashed by rickson. fedor probably would as well.

:lol: cmon man

[J_Roth]

his grappling is still better. palo filho trained with him and said he would still beat the top fighteres in mma today. also rickson finished all of his fights with a sub. rickson is way better dosnt matter if it gi or no go. bj would get smashed by rickson. fedor probably would as well.:lol:

[Cameron]

again im not saying that thats what filho said after training with him. ill try to find the intereview. all im saying is rickson in his prime definatly better than all of these guys by far.

[Canibus81]

again im not saying that thats what filho said after training with him. ill try to find the intereview. all im saying is rickson in his prime definatly better than all of these guys by far.

He was good but can see him dominating BJ Penn or Fedor in the grappling department.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Fedor.

Because the question was overall grappling. Fedor is great at takedowns, defendiing takedowns, great at submissions from top or bottom. Great off of his back in general, and great at top control.

[J_Roth]

He was good but can see him dominating BJ Penn or Fedor in the grappling department. No disrespect to Rickson but he fought a bunch of nobodies and there is more speculation than fact. Maybe he would have been the best but we'll never know. It's similar to people who talk about Bruce Lee.

[ufoalf]

No disrespect to Rickson but he fought a bunch of nobodies and there is more speculation than fact. Maybe he would have been the best but we'll never know. It's similar to people who talk about Bruce Lee.

He's won tournaments against the best in the world. If thats nobodies, than no body is anybody unless they have MMA belt i guess...

Oh and yea, in BJJ he would handle BJPenn. Fedor no so much but thats because of strength. As far as knowledge and skills on the ground Rickson knows a lot more than Fedor.

[J_Roth]

He's won tournaments against the best in the world. If thats nobodies, than no body is anybody unless they have MMA belt i guess...

Oh and yea, in BJJ he would handle BJPenn. Fedor no so much but thats because of strength. As far as knowledge and skills on the ground Rickson knows a lot more than Fedor.I should stated that it was my opinion on his MMA career. I understand the thread topic. :good

[Polymath]

Fedor.

Because the question was overall grappling. Fedor is great at takedowns, defendiing takedowns, great at submissions from top or bottom. Great off of his back in general, and great at top control.

Window Licker, for once, is right.

[Polymath]

his grappling is still better. palo filho trained with him and said he would still beat the top fighteres in mma today. also rickson finished all of his fights with a sub. rickson is way better dosnt matter if it gi or no go. bj would get smashed by rickson. fedor probably would as well.

:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

[Beebs]

his grappling is still better. palo filho trained with him and said he would still beat the top fighteres in mma today. also rickson finished all of his fights with a sub. rickson is way better dosnt matter if it gi or no go. bj would get smashed by rickson. fedor probably would as well.

Paulo also went to Drug Rehab about 4 months after that. A one sided account of what happened in training, where one guy clearly idolizes the other, isn't the best evidence to go on.

[Beebs]

Says you based on??? Nothing.

Based off watching them take people down, and defend takedowns, its incredibly obvious that BJ has the better wrestling, by miles.

[Beebs]

He's won tournaments against the best in the world. If thats nobodies, than no body is anybody unless they have MMA belt i guess...

Oh and yea, in BJJ he would handle BJPenn. Fedor no so much but thats because of strength. As far as knowledge and skills on the ground Rickson knows a lot more than Fedor.

BJ has won those same tournaments, the difference is, he actually had people competing against him; the popularity of BJJ when BJ won compared to when Rickson did isn't even close.

BJ had to beat much, much, much, more talent to win his BJJ world title, the quickest ever to do it by the way.

[ufoalf]

BJ has won those same tournaments, the difference is, he actually had people competing against him; the popularity of BJJ when BJ won compared to when Rickson did isn't even close.

BJ had to beat much, much, much, more talent to win his BJJ world title, the quickest ever to do it by the way.
Oh right, people were just giving up to Rickson, AND his competition wasn't even close to BJPenn's. :lol::lol:

Watching Penn's takedowns? :lol:. Well, Rickson won freestyle tournaments. BJ Penn was taught by someone who looks up to Rickson as their master. Dude you're so blinded by your hate towards Rickson because of his mythical record that you refuse to see reason. Give it up.
Penn is no where near the grappler that is Rickson. Same way as Rickson is nowhere near the MMAist Penn is.

[Beebs]

Oh right, people were just giving up to Rickson, AND his competition wasn't even close to BJPenn's. :lol::lol:

Watching Penn's takedowns? :lol:. Well, Rickson won freestyle tournaments. BJ Penn was taught by someone who looks up to Rickson as their master. Dude you're so blinded by your hate towards Rickson because of his mythical record that you refuse to see reason. Give it up.
Penn is no where near the grappler that is Rickson. Same way as Rickson is nowhere near the MMAist Penn is.

I like Rickson, just to get that out of your mind.

No, people were not giving up to him, but there was a very, very small number of people to compete against. BJJ has grown exponentially since Rickson's last mundial win; when more people are doing a sport, the higher the level of that sport, its just basic numbers.

BJJ as a sport was still in its infancy when Rickson was in his prime, so not only did BJ have to defeat a tougher group of competitors, he did it faster than anybody else has before or since.

[ufoalf]

I like Rickson, just to get that out of your mind.

No, people were not giving up to him, but there was a very, very small number of people to compete against. BJJ has grown exponentially since Rickson's last mundial win; when more people are doing a sport, the higher the level of that sport, its just basic numbers.

BJJ as a sport was still in its infancy when Rickson was in his prime, so not only did BJ have to defeat a tougher group of competitors, he did it faster than anybody else has before or since.

Yes, you like Rickson as much as I like Brock. Same kind'a luv.

And Rickson was one of major reasons why the sport grew. He's one of the originals. He is one of the sources for the growth and evolution of the sport.

As much as his record is padded there is truth behind it all. He CAN submit blackbelts at will and most likely can submit Pederriates(w/e his names) with a move of his choosing. He still has strength, his knowledge is leaps and bounds ahead of BJ Penn. His record in grappling is more impressive than that of BJ Penn.

It's CLEAR that you are bein unreasonable. Why? I assume that it's personal distaste for the man. Everytime his name comes up, you're there to try and discredit him as if he's Bruce Lee of BJJ. You try THAT hard, if you haven't realized it yet.

[Beebs]

When you watch a high level BJJ match from the early 90s, and compare it to Jacare or Roger, the change in the level of the game is just obvious.

[ufoalf]

When's the last time you seen Rickson grapple?

[sugarngold]

BJ has won those same tournaments, the difference is, he actually had people competing against him; the popularity of BJJ when BJ won compared to when Rickson did isn't even close.

BJ had to beat much, much, much, more talent to win his BJJ world title, the quickest ever to do it by the way.

No competition? Really?

Well here's the famous video of Rickson Gracie grappling and SUBMITTING top rival Rigan Machado. This is not a points victory. It's a submission via choke. I ask you in all seriousness which opponents did BJ Penn submit during his jiujitsu run that actually rivaled Rigan Machado in terms of skill or class?

vZRcYJ-n07M

[Beebs]

Well obviously "no" is an exaggeration, but its completely obvious that BJ went through a much larger field of competition, and was still not near his peak.

The BJJ mundials weren't even formed when Rickson was the world champion, there was no real international presence, there wasn't even much of a presence outside of sao paulo and rio, it was a local phenomenon.

The Torrance CA academy didn't even open until 1990; the growth of the sport from the time Rickson was at his best, to now, is unbelievable.

Then of course there is the obvious fact that BJ outgrappled Renzo and Rodrigo, but of course that doesn't count because Rickson was a thousand times better right?

Rickson is a legend, a pioneer, and was the best of his generation, but for some reason to suggest that anybody has ever been better, in a sport that has grown at light speed, offends people, its absurd.

[Beebs]

When's the last time you seen Rickson grapple?

As in when did I last watch a video of him in the past, or whats the latest thing I've seen him do? If its the later, there isn't really anything with him in anything competitive for about a decade. Even past that competition footage is few and far between.

Wanderlei Silva told Rickson he was living in a fantasy world when he put down Nogueria, and apparently some of you live in that same world. Times change, things progress, add to that fact that the sheer volume of people doing BJJ has exploded since Ricksons day, and what you have is a level of competition that has gotten higher every day.

[ufoalf]

No, what's absurd is to suggest that BJ Penn is better grappler than Rickson. Based on 1 single tournament. And... takedowns in mma?

[ufoalf]

Wanderlei Silva told Rickson he was living in a fantasy world when he put down Nogueria, and apparently some of you live in that same world. Times change, things progress, add to that fact that the sheer volume of people doing BJJ has exploded since Ricksons day, and what you have is a level of competition that has gotten higher every day.

That my friend is pretty ridiculous to even stick it in this conversation. Go look up what Rickson said about Nogueira or other top MMA fighters etc. Yes, what Rickson said is absurd. What W. Silva said was right. It has 0 bearin on our conversation.


And he has grown with the competition. Do you not understand that he is one of the SOURCEs of the growth? He's not the same Rickson as he was 13 years ago. He has learned things, he has CREATED things. He is a MUCH better grappler than he was than DISPITE him not being in his prime HEALTH and STRENGTH.

[Beebs]

Tatame: In the last PRIDE show, you said that Shogun will be your successor. Are you already thinking about retiring?





Vanderlei: No way... When a guy retires, he starts to tell stories about having 400 fights, street fights, and ends up becoming a legend. I'm a real fighter. A real champion is made by titles and results. I keep saying that I'm in the middle of my carreer, I have 35 fights and I want to have 70. Today, thank God, I don't need to fight for money anymore. I fight because I like it and I want to get to 70 fights.





Tatame: The challenge you made to Rickson on Tatame TV was big news. Will it happen?





Vanderlei: The promoters will put up the money, but the guy (Rickson) will want to ask for 5 million US dollars... It won't be able to take place like that. He wants to make almost the same money as me (being sarcastic), the champion... To tell you the truth, I made the challange, but I know it won't happen. Mainly because he's at an advanced age. My only thing is with the comments he made. If he wanted, he could use his fame to help propel the sport, have an event, or maybe help promote the sport around the world. But instead he defames the athletes who are actually fighting, saying that the level of fighter is low and that Minotauro has no guard. That's absurd! Minotauro is part of vale-tudo history. The fight he had against Bob Sapp... what was that??? So, I feel that Rickson is living in a fantasy world, like Star Wars. The things he said left me upset, and I will always challenge anyone who talks bad about my sport.

[Beebs]

That my friend is pretty ridiculous to even stick it in this conversation. Go look up what Rickson said about Nogueira or other top MMA fighters etc. Yes, what Rickson said is absurd. What W. Silva said was right. It has 0 bearin on our conversation.


And he has grown with the competition. Do you not understand that he is one of the SOURCEs of the growth? He's not the same Rickson as he was 13 years ago. He has learned things, he has CREATED things. He is a MUCH better grappler than he was than DISPITE him not being in his prime HEALTH and STRENGTH.

Yes, he has, but to pretend that Health and Strength aren't real factors is pretty silly. BJ has the same opportunity to learn as Rickson, actually he has more opportunity; more top grapplers to train with, more wrestling coaching, more sparring partners, and he is in his physical prime.

[Beebs]

No, what's absurd is to suggest that BJ Penn is better grappler than Rickson. Based on 1 single tournament. And... takedowns in mma?

The 2000 mundials is not the basis of thinking BJ is better, its just one piece of evidence of many, its just indicative of my point. He was the first non Brazilian to win, mostly because there were not very many non Brazilians competing before that, and even less, if any, before 96. He was the quickest to win it, which speaks to his ability to learn quickly.

Seeing BJ's wrestling against Gomi, Hughes, and countless other incredibly good wrestlers, and watching Rickson's wrestling against Takada and Funaki, its obvious that BJ has much better wrestling. Or if you want to go on hearsay and training, Randy Couture said BJ was one of the hardest opponents he ever tried to take down.

[Beebs]

Not to mention Fedor, who medaled in the 98 Russian Judo championships, is a multiple time world combat Sambo champion, and has outgrappled every fighter ever placed in front of him, except possibly Arona. Judo in Russia is a much bigger sport than BJJ in Brazil, even Judo in Brazil is still more popular than BJJ, and it especially was in 98.

The question is, after all, best "overall" grappler, which has no one definiton; to me it means who can actually use their grappling ability in the most realistic situation, with the least rules protecting them.

[chimba]

Well obviously "no" is an exaggeration, but its completely obvious that BJ went through a much larger field of competition, and was still not near his peak.

The BJJ mundials weren't even formed when Rickson was the world champion, there was no real international presence, there wasn't even much of a presence outside of sao paulo and rio, it was a local phenomenon.

The Torrance CA academy didn't even open until 1990; the growth of the sport from the time Rickson was at his best, to now, is unbelievable.

Then of course there is the obvious fact that BJ outgrappled Renzo and Rodrigo, but of course that doesn't count because Rickson was a thousand times better right?

Rickson is a legend, a pioneer, and was the best of his generation, but for some reason to suggest that anybody has ever been better, in a sport that has grown at light speed, offends people, its absurd.

To quote Marc LAimon.."Marcelo Garcia is the real Rickson Gracie"
Wandarlei Silva: " Rickson is living in a fantasy world" sorry just had to repeat that lol

Can you imagine Rickson against Chuck...my my..

[chimba]

Heres Helio, Ricksons father talking about his mythical 400-0 record..:lol:

uZRDumvq6qo&eurl=[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[ufoalf]

Tatame: In the last PRIDE show, you said that Shogun will be your successor. Are you already thinking about retiring?





Vanderlei: No way... When a guy retires, he starts to tell stories about having 400 fights, street fights, and ends up becoming a legend. I'm a real fighter. A real champion is made by titles and results. I keep saying that I'm in the middle of my carreer, I have 35 fights and I want to have 70. Today, thank God, I don't need to fight for money anymore. I fight because I like it and I want to get to 70 fights.





Tatame: The challenge you made to Rickson on Tatame TV was big news. Will it happen?





Vanderlei: The promoters will put up the money, but the guy (Rickson) will want to ask for 5 million US dollars... It won't be able to take place like that. He wants to make almost the same money as me (being sarcastic), the champion... To tell you the truth, I made the challange, but I know it won't happen. Mainly because he's at an advanced age. My only thing is with the comments he made. If he wanted, he could use his fame to help propel the sport, have an event, or maybe help promote the sport around the world. But instead he defames the athletes who are actually fighting, saying that the level of fighter is low and that Minotauro has no guard. That's absurd! Minotauro is part of vale-tudo history. The fight he had against Bob Sapp... what was that??? So, I feel that Rickson is living in a fantasy world, like Star Wars. The things he said left me upset, and I will always challenge anyone who talks bad about my sport.

Thanks for showin how irrelevant that is.

[ufoalf]

Yes, he has, but to pretend that Health and Strength aren't real factors is pretty silly. BJ has the same opportunity to learn as Rickson, actually he has more opportunity; more top grapplers to train with, more wrestling coaching, more sparring partners, and he is in his physical prime.
Yes it's important. But are we talking about P4P here?
Whats the criteria under which we will judge grappling? The ability to stay up? Ability to take someone down? Ability to submit someone?
If you say all, then what has more weight? Cause taking someone down is a 10th of what grappling is. I put submitions and control on the GROUND under a much higher value when we talking about "grappling".

I love your double standards. It is known that Rickson won wrestling tournaments. Where's the proof of BJ Penn even competing in wrestling hmm? Show me where he beat Matt Hughes in WRESTLING.

Fedor is a great grappler. He is not as technical as Rickson in no way except perhaps Judo/Sambo throws/clinches. Fedor excels at doing few things right. He has few techniques that he practices day in and day out. They work for him. Can he out-grapple Rickson in Prime vs Prime... tough question, I don't think so. If punchin is involved Fedor might even SUBMIT Rickson in under 2 minutes.

Chimba, Helio is talkin about how Rickson counts all the tournaments and amateur matches. Which is actually much more fair than what many people think.

Bottom line when you speak of pure grappling I can't see anyone being better than people who do it as their day job, hobby, and passion. When you talking about people like Fedor, BJ Penn, they have too many other things that they have to worry about other than grappling.

There's no way any of those guys a better grapplers than Rickson.

[Tyga]

Rickson. It's not even close.

[Polymath]

'Grappling' does not mean 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu'.

[québecwarrior]

'Grappling' does not mean 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu'.
:good

[Tyga]

'Grappling' does not mean 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu'.

Very true. But I still choose Rickson.

[Minotauro]

Rickson is the best considering how good Roger is and yet every Gracie still regards Rickson as the best says something. Also I remember reading an article were it talked about when Rickson rolled with Saulo Ribeiro and absolutely dominated him and even joked how Saulo should give his black belt back to Royler because there was such a difference between them. This was when Saulo was winning everything and was widely regarded as the best bjj competing.