Liston versus Holmes

[NickHudson]

Cannot remember seeing this one in the (admittedly short) time I have been on ESB.

Battle of arguably the two greatest HW jabbers.

Can Holmes superior speed and ability to get up after being smashed see him home against big, bad, Sonny?

[Dostoevsky]

I think Holmes could definilty win.

He hit harder than Ali and was more technical.
He wasn't as fast as Ali though so he may get hit more.

I still take Holmes by a very close UD.

[Bill1234]

Holmes ud. IMO Liston would eat his jab all night. The only issue for Holmes would be is his tendency to swing like there's no tomorrow if he's on the ropes or hurt. And obbviously slugging with Liston isn't advisable.

[Bill1234]

IMO you are too quick or sure to say Larry would go down. He seemed to be able to stay through some pretty rough moments before. Including right after the Shavers knock down. Most people would have fallen right back down after that if they had gotten up in the first place.

[META5]

IMO you are too quick or sure to say Larry would go down. He seemed to be able to stay through some pretty rough moments before. Including right after the Shavers knock down. Most people would have fallen right back down after that if they had gotten up in the first place.

Problem for Larry in that event is that Liston is another realm in terms of his finishing abilities than Shavers.

[Dostoevsky]

Firstly, Liston had just blown out Floyd Patterson twice in a row before the first Ali fight.
To dismiss my analysis with a simple wave of a hand and say "oh he was past his prime" is ridiculous, Liston was in his prime, which showed from his two performances prior.

Holmes close UD.

[Bill1234]

Problem for Larry in that event is that Liston is another realm in terms of his finishing abilities than Shavers.

Problem for Liston is landing a right like the one Shavers did.

[jyuza]

Prime Liston would probably win this one. Sonny was really awesome in his best days.

[Bill1234]

Liston was a far better boxer and was much better able to land the big punches than Shavers, especially setting them up with the big jab. So even though his raw power may not have been quite what Shaver's was, he would've definitely made Holmes feel it as well, and more often, likely resulting in a knock-down along the way.

Holmes is capable of out-boxing him as well, I just see Liston's power getting the best of him and winning him the decision.


I know Liston was much better than Shavers, but IMO his jab wouldn't set much up. IMO he wasn't fast enough to set the punches up. For Holmes, usually you hand to land the bomb from no where right on the button for him to go down. Shavers and Snipes proved that. But yet a guy like Cooney who was an extremly hard hitter, and IMO just as hard a hitter as Liston, couldn't put Larry down, or hurt him. The worst Larry was hurt through out the whole fight was the big low blow Cooney hit Larry with.

[Shake]

Liston would damage Larry bad, especially to the body. I don't know if Larry could have made it, he was a tough son of a bitch. Put a gun to my head and I'll say Liston KO11.

[Bill1234]

Sonny was really awesome in his best days.

And Larry was really great on his.

[META5]

Problem for Liston is landing a right like the one Shavers did.

Problem for Larry is that Liston is capable of hurting you in MANY more ways than Shavers, whether right or left hand.

Liston was a much more accomplished boxer, with a higher and more polished skillset than Shavers. One punch power aside, Liston is a much, much, much more dangerous foe for Larry, than Shavers could ever hope to be.

[Bill1234]

But still, Holmes was nothing like Ali, so comparing the two is pretty lame

How so? The main difference is Larry wasn't quite as quick as Ali, but he made up for it in power and technical aspects.

[Bill1234]

Problem for Larry is that Liston is capable of hurting you in MANY more ways than Shavers, whether right or left hand.

Liston was a much more accomplished boxer, with a higher and more polished skillset than Shavers. One punch power aside, Liston is a much, much, much more dangerous foe for Larry, than Shavers could ever hope to be.

And I realize that, but IMO Liston wouldn't be able to land the kind of right that Shavers did. Everybody seems to forget Larry's ablity to clear his head very quickly.

[Bill1234]

Again, not a prime Liston, and again, a thrown fight. And I wasn't saying Holmes is nowhere near as good as Ali, I was saying his style was nothing like a young Ali.

I know it wasn't a prime Liston, and I know it was a thrown fight. And my question is how was Holmes style nothing like a young Ali's?

[Dostoevsky]

The 2nd fight was a dive.

But I don't believe the 1st fight was thrown, Liston just gave up.
I'd like to see sweet peas conclusive evidence of the 1st fight being 'thrown' that he claims in such a confident manner.

[jyuza]

And Larry was really great on his.

He was. Kind of Bernard Hopkins greatness in his title defense.

But still, I think Sonny would punish Larry en route to a late KO victory.

[META5]

And I realize that, but IMO Liston wouldn't be able to land the kind of right that Shavers did. Everybody seems to forget Larry's ablity to clear his head very quickly.

If Shavers can land that right, then a prime Liston or a prime Louis who set up their right hands much better than Shavers did can certainly land a similar right, even if it carried less pure power. They were more accurate punchers than Shavers and not only that, they would've followed up the punch with a successive punch ... anyways, who's to say that Liston lands the dream-maker right, when he has one of the better left hooks in all HW history?

[Bill1234]

It also depends on if the fight is a champion ship fight, or a stepping stone to one. If it is, then you will see Larry fight harder. If it is just a fight, Larry won't fight as hard. And if Larry was the champ, as one of his former sparring partners once said, trying to take the title from him was like slapping his mama. He would fight to the death to keep it. Liston was sort of the same way, but he fought like that all of the time so it is hard to say.

[jyuza]

I´ll go with Holmes outboxing Liston to a close UD. I could see Liston winning but not on points and while Holmes could be knocked down and hurt, he has shown that he ad a good recovering ability and heart. I also assume Holmes is the better ring general making Liston his fight.

Holmes had the tools to stay away from Sonny all night long but like you said it wouldn't be without taking some hard shots and Liston had one hell of a jab as well (I actually think his was better than Larry's).
It woul dbe a close fight but I don't see it going the distance.

[McGrain]

Liston was a far better boxer and was much better able to land the big punches than Shavers, especially setting them up with the big jab. So even though his raw power may not have been quite what Shaver's was, he would've definitely made Holmes feel it as well, and more often, likely resulting in a knock-down along the way.

Holmes is capable of out-boxing him as well, I just see Liston's power getting the best of him and winning him the decision.

I agree with most of this. I would add that Liston's bodywork makes the serious difference for me. Liston is going to hurt Holmes to the body at some point and that could be the end of the show. I just don't see any way for Holmes to make the end of the 15th against Liston's weaponry.

It is also not impossible that Liston could outjab Holmes on the way to the KO.

[jyuza]

I agree with most of this. I would add that Liston's bodywork makes the serious difference for me. Liston is going to hurt Holmes to the body at some point and that could be the end of the show. I just don't see any way for Holmes to make the end of the 15th against Liston's weaponry.

It is also not impossible that Liston could outjab Holmes on the way to the KO.

That's my thought exactly, no wonder after all we both read Night Train :good

[McGrain]

That's my thought exactly, no wonder after all we both read Night Train :good

True, true.

If you haven't already, track down some of Sonny's fights after the Ali fights. They make for an interesting full stop. McMurray is a good one.

[jyuza]

True, true.

If you haven't already, track down some of Sonny's fights after the Ali fights. They make for an interesting full stop. McMurray is a good one.

I definitely will. I am interested in his early fights too, I watched the Williams fight and damn it was as brutal as the book described it!

[McGrain]

I definitely will. I am interested in his early fights too, I watched the Williams fight and damn it was as brutal as the book described it!


Yeah, Liston takes some pretty serious shots from a pretty big hitter. I love when people try to tell me that the Ali II KD was genuine. You know they haven't seen this fight.

[jyuza]

Yeah, Liston takes some pretty serious shots from a pretty big hitter. I love when people try to tell me that the Ali II KD was genuine. You know they haven't seen this fight.

Definitely. Well, when you know that Angelo Dundee elder brother was linked to the peger and when you see the "phantom punch" in the second fight, there is no doubt possible...

[Duodenum]

This one comes down to speed and mobility, and Holmes has a significant edge on Liston in that respect. Ali had the fastest jab, and Liston may have had the hardest (along with Louis), but Larry had the best overall jab in the history of the division. He'd continually beat Sonny to the punch with it.

Shavers and Cooney tried desperately to attack Holmes downstairs to no avail, and Liston wouldn't have any more success than they did. Sonny's most dangerous weapon was his hook, not a punch Larry was particularly susceptible to. Shavers had underrated handspeed, and a lethal right which carried more one punch power than what Liston had in his arsenal. When I look at how Holmes shut out Earnie in their first meeting, I just don't see that version of Larry wearing down against the Liston of the Machen and Williams fights. Sonny was tough as nails physically, but that wouldn't do a plodder like him any good with a master boxer of Holmes's size and caliber.

Liston was no infallible finisher, as Leotis Martin demonstrated. If he did manage to stun Larry somehow, Holmes would quickly regain his bearings. As he proved against Earnie, no one punch would have been sufficient to take him out at his peak. This would be a long frustrating matchup for Sonny.

Holmes UD 15 Liston

[McGrain]

This one comes down to speed and mobility, and Holmes has a significant edge on Liston in that respect.

If it did come down to that then obviously Holmes would win. But why do you feel that is the case?


Ali had the fastest jab, and Liston may have had the hardest (along with Louis), but Larry had the best overall jab in the history of the division. He'd continually beat Sonny to the punch with it.

By any measure, however, he has to beat him to it very frequently - i'd say not less than 2-1 - and also never, ever, ever get hit with the two in the one two, or he'd have very serious trouble.

Shavers and Cooney tried desperately to attack Holmes downstairs to no avail, and Liston wouldn't have any more success than they did.

Even though he is a better puncher with a better chin who is happy to ship a punch to open up a fighter to the body?

Sonny's most dangerous weapon was his hook, not a punch Larry was particularly susceptible to. Shavers had underrated handspeed, and a lethal right which carried more one punch power than what Liston had in his arsenal.

I agree with all of this. But why hot explain the other side of the equation? Liston is a better boxer than Shavers, more accurate, more persistant - overall far, far more dangerous. I actually do not think it is a sensible comparison unless you quantify what you are saying.

When I look at how Holmes shut out Earnie in their first meeting, I just don't see that version of Larry wearing down against the Liston of the Machen and Williams fights. Sonny was tough as nails physically, but that wouldn't do a plodder like him any good with a master boxer of Holmes's size and caliber.

This is the crux of the thing. Liston could use his physicality to make up for his lack of finesse in terms of footwork - how this would pan out where Holmes is concerned may be the key, but it is unfair to weight the thinking in favour of Holmes by seeing it as a battle of manueverability - Liston's timing of attack, persistance and toughness are the factors that must be weighted against Larry's speed.

Liston was no infallible finisher, as Leotis Martin demonstrated. If he did manage to stun Larry somehow, Holmes would quickly regain his bearings.

Liston was no Tyson when it came to finishing, that's true. If he finally catches up with Larry in round 14 then it's possible that Larry can escape with the points win.

But if Liston catches him in round 3, that re-shapes the entire contest.


As he proved against Earnie, no one punch would have been sufficient to take him out at his peak. This would be a long frustrating matchup for Sonny.

Of course, what would be best for Sonny would be a clean KO, a Louis style finish. But the fact that we might not see that doesn't spell the end for Liston, the opposite. He is a patient stalker with the ability to box.

Whilst Larry would be a new challenge for him, it must be remembered that Liston spent most of his career trying to catch guys. Most of them got caught.

[My dinner with Conteh]

The Mallard, close UD.

[Bill1234]

This one comes down to speed and mobility, and Holmes has a significant edge on Liston in that respect. Ali had the fastest jab, and Liston may have had the hardest (along with Louis), but Larry had the best overall jab in the history of the division. He'd continually beat Sonny to the punch with it.

Shavers and Cooney tried desperately to attack Holmes downstairs to no avail, and Liston wouldn't have any more success than they did. Sonny's most dangerous weapon was his hook, not a punch Larry was particularly susceptible to. Shavers had underrated handspeed, and a lethal right which carried more one punch power than what Liston had in his arsenal. When I look at how Holmes shut out Earnie in their first meeting, I just don't see that version of Larry wearing down against the Liston of the Machen and Williams fights. Sonny was tough as nails physically, but that wouldn't do a plodder like him any good with a master boxer of Holmes's size and caliber.

Liston was no infallible finisher, as Leotis Martin demonstrated. If he did manage to stun Larry somehow, Holmes would quickly regain his bearings. As he proved against Earnie, no one punch would have been sufficient to take him out at his peak. This would be a long frustrating matchup for Sonny.

Holmes UD 15 Liston

:good

[Bill1234]

Even though he is a better puncher with a better chin who is happy to ship a punch to open up a fighter to the body?

Gerry Cooney was a vicious body puncher, his left hook to the liver was devastating, and it only phased Larry once. Larry was able to take great body shots, which is another reason why I think Larry would take him.

[Joe E]

Eddie Machen managed to stay away from Liston for 12rds.and Holmes would too.Larry also had an excellent left jab,very good boxing skills,and he got up off the deck against Shavers proving he could shake off a hard shot.I think Larry lets Liston follow him all night and boxes his way to a U.D.Thanks.

[Stonehands89]

Holmes will not beat Liston and the ultimate reason is simple -Holmes will engage him too much. Holmes had good mobility -good lateral movement particularly, but he was not out of reach (particularly for the freak-arms of Liston) and was always looking for opportunitites to be aggressive. Even against Shavers he warred with him before the end of round 1. Against a prime Liston, that is a mistake. Shavers was a "punch and wait" slugger.

I consider Liston to be a "break-you-down" puncher-boxer.

Forget the Leotis Martin fight, that was 10 years past his prime. Liston was a demonic finisher and he proved it again and again. The Machen fight proved the Liston had considerable stamina considering the muscle mass he carried around, his activity level seemed to increase at the end of the fight. Machen was masterful in terms of skill, but Liston really was not far behind in that category and he proved it.

Larry could get sloppy in there and he was not a supreme mechanic -he looped his shots at times and he dropped his hands constantly. I do think however that Larry would win the battle of the jabs -it's too fast. Liston would throw his anyway because he knew that it carried the force of most guy's rights so he would not need to land it at will -but just enough to worry the other guy so that he could follow up with a right hand-left hook. Both of which Larry could be there for.

Liston would be losing the early rounds because of the speed and lateral movement (Liston had a bad tendency to follow instead of cutting off the ring). But he would be making long-term investments that would see him take over later. I see Larry wilting as the booming shots take their toll. Unlike Liston, Norton had neither the guns nor the skill that Liston did, otherwise, he'd have taken that fight. Liston's heavy artillery, delivery, chin, and stamina would combine with the other major factor -Larry's aggression and courage, and Liston would begin to win the middle rounds and dominate the end. A stoppage is possible here.

In sum, "assassins" may have minor victories with speed and cleverness, but Heavy Artillary eventually flushes them out. Especially if they're in the ring!

[McGrain]

Liston would be losing the early rounds because of the speed and lateral movement (Liston had a bad tendency to follow instead of cutting off the ring).


Great post Stonehands, forgive me for picking on the one bit I don't feel is at least mostly right.

Liston was indeed pretty bad at cutting of the ring. But I think that his "pounce" (timed and accurate) is underestimated.

As was the case with Louis (better at cutting of the ring) the sheer psychological pressure placed on the fighter being followed is also serious and underestimated. The combination of the two make it possible for Liston to trouble Larry even early on, in my view.

[Stonehands89]

Great post Stonehands, forgive me for picking on the one bit I don't feel is at least mostly right.

Liston was indeed pretty bad at cutting of the ring. But I think that his "pounce" (timed and accurate) is underestimated.

As was the case with Louis (better at cutting of the ring) the sheer psychological pressure placed on the fighter being followed is also serious and underestimated. The combination of the two make it possible for Liston to trouble Larry even early on, in my view.

Yes, yes! Absolutely.

-- and thanks, I made a mental note early on while writing it to discuss that physical presence that Liston had in there. I have compared it to lead and have been the ring myself with a few professional MWs and LHWs who had that "heavyness" that drains you both physically and mentally. It sucks.

[Mendoza]

Cannot remember seeing this one in the (admittedly short) time I have been on ESB.

Battle of arguably the two greatest HW jabbers.

Can Holmes superior speed and ability to get up after being smashed see him home against big, bad, Sonny?

Holmes enjoys a good hand and foot speed advantage over Liston.
I also think Holmes is tougher when the going gets rough, and like Liston could fight dirty too. Liston when low un-purpose when things did not go his way. Holmes could thumb a guy in the eye with the best of them.

The question here is can Liston take Holmes out? Holmes was no fool. He avoided the ropes and corners vs punchers, and had a good chin and recuperation powers when he was hit with the bomb. I like Holmes to win in either 12 or 15 rounds on points

[Bill1234]

Larry could get sloppy in there and he was not a supreme mechanic -he looped his shots at times and he dropped his hands constantly. I do think however that Larry would win the battle of the jabs -it's too fast. Liston would throw his anyway because he knew that it carried the force of most guy's rights so he would not need to land it at will -but just enough to worry the other guy so that he could follow up with a right hand-left hook. Both of which Larry could be there for.


Larry only looped his punches when someone was open for it, or if he had them hurt. He would get a little sloppy if he was winning by a huge margin, but in this case, I don't see it happening.

[Stonehands89]

Larry only looped his punches when someone was open for it, or if he had them hurt. He would get a little sloppy if he was winning by a huge margin, but in this case, I don't see it happening.

Larry looped his punches and he dropped his hands... incidentally, he also pulled back and away and worst of all, he would often turn inside to his right. This perfectly positioned him for a left hook because he gave the other guy the best angle to throw it. And Liston's short hook was devestating.

Witherspoon (who also at times employed the cross-armed position) fought similarly to Liston -he would slip jabs, come in and rip the body and throw a strong jab himself. Liston was at least as technically sound as Witherspoon only far stronger and he hit far harder. Larry barely got by Spoon... but what I saw in that fight is that Liston would beat him -he'd sap his strength (though never his will) but he'd nevertheless roll over him at the end.

[anut]

holmes would win.....more heart also:smoke:smoke:smoke:smoke

[JohnThomas1]

I know Liston was much better than Shavers, but IMO his jab wouldn't set much up. IMO he wasn't fast enough to set the punches up.

Would you say Shavers had a better jab than Liston (a guy some people STILL think had the best jab in heavyweight history) Also, would you say Shavers was fast or any good at all setting up punches vs top opponents? Liston is so much better than Shaver's they can barely be compared, excepting power. This would be a cracking fight either way.

[heerko koois]

Holmes ud. IMO Liston would eat his jab all night. The only issue for Holmes would be is his tendency to swing like there's no tomorrow if he's on the ropes or hurt. And obbviously slugging with Liston isn't advisable.

Holmes has fought bigger punchers than Liston , don,t you think ?

[Bill1234]

Larry looped his punches and he dropped his hands... incidentally, he also pulled back and away and worst of all, he would often turn inside to his right. This perfectly positioned him for a left hook because he gave the other guy the best angle to throw it. And Liston's short hook was devestating.

Witherspoon (who also at times employed the cross-armed position) fought similarly to Liston -he would slip jabs, come in and rip the body and throw a strong jab himself. Liston was at least as technically sound as Witherspoon only far stronger and he hit far harder. Larry barely got by Spoon... but what I saw in that fight is that Liston would beat him -he'd sap his strength (though never his will) but he'd nevertheless roll over him at the end.


Larry was past it when he fought Witherspoon. He was slower, and his reflexes and legs weren't what they once were. Larry usually kept his right hand up by the bottom of his chin when he circled in to the right, which is why he didn't get hit with very many left hooks.

[Bill1234]

Would you say Shavers had a better jab than Liston (a guy some people STILL think had the best jab in heavyweight history) Also, would you say Shavers was fast or any good at all setting up punches vs top opponents? Liston is so much better than Shaver's they can barely be compared, excepting power. This would be a cracking fight either way.

No, not at all. Liston was definately 3 times the fighter Shavers ever was, but people are saying that Larry was able to take Shavers shots, but he wouldn't be able to take Liston. Even more people think that Larry had a better jab than Liston. Even Bert Sugar, who doesn't like Larry, says that.

[Bill1234]

Holmes has fought bigger punchers than Liston , don,t you think ?

Yeah, he fought 2, and one on par, but what does that have to do with the post of mine that you quoted?

[JohnThomas1]

Larry was past it when he fought Witherspoon. He was slower, and his reflexes and legs weren't what they once were. Larry usually kept his right hand up by the bottom of his chin when he circled in to the right, which is why he didn't get hit with very many left hooks.

I think Stonehands is making pertinent technical points rather than saying this was prime Larry or anything like that. Even at his best the points Stonehands makes would apply.

[JohnThomas1]

No, not at all. Liston was definately 3 times the fighter Shavers ever was, but people are saying that Larry was able to take Shavers shots, but he wouldn't be able to take Liston. Even more people think that Larry had a better jab than Liston. Even Bert Sugar, who doesn't like Larry, says that.

What people are saying is that Liston would follow up his big shots better than Shavers and was a far better finisher. They are not claiming what you believe they are. Nobody is saying Liston can finish Holmes with one punch when Shavers failed, they are saying he will follow up after his big shots far better than Shavers, a limited fighter ever could and has a chance of finishing him.

[Bill1234]

What people are saying is that Liston would follow up his big shots better than Shavers and was a far better finisher. They are not claiming what you believe they are. Nobody is saying Liston can finish Holmes with one punch when Shavers failed, they are saying he will follow up after his big shots far better than Shavers, a limited fighter ever could and has a chance of finishing him.

I understood what they were saying, but they are assuming that Liston will land a huge right out of now where like Shavers did, and near as powerful, and I'm assuming he is not. And if he did, then I would assume that Larry would dance like he never danced before, because he's not so stupid to slug with Liston on the brink of being KO'd. Maybe if Liston catches him when Larry is dancing, but other than that, I can't see it happening.

[JohnThomas1]

I understood what they were saying, but they are assuming that Liston will land a huge right out of now where like Shavers did, and near as powerful, and I'm assuming he is not. And if he did, then I would assume that Larry would dance like he never danced before, because he's not so stupid to slug with Liston on the brink of being KO'd. Maybe if Liston catches him when Larry is dancing, but other than that, I can't see it happening.

Liston's scoring some heavy shots, that's a given. Larry, whilst good defensively, sure ain't no Pep in there. If a crude wild swinging Shaver's can land Liston sure can, and peeps have already explained why Liston will have more offensive success than Shaver's.

[Bill1234]

Liston's scoring some heavy shots, that's a given. Larry, whilst good defensively, sure ain't no Pep in there. If a crude wild swinging Shaver's can land Liston sure can, and peeps have already explained why Liston will have more offensive success than Shaver's.


Well yeah, of course Liston will be able to land his share of heavy blows, but I think Holmes could take most of them. A lot of times Larry got nailed real hard (Shavers, Snipes) was when he was too comfortable, and I doubt he would get too comfortable in the ring with Liston.

[Ted Spoon]

In this match-up the faith has to be with Holmes.

Liston has the tools to win, he always had 'dem great tools, but he was never one to grind out a performance.

To beat the late seventies/early eighties Larry Holmes you have to have a plan, a V. good plan, and see it through with guts and fire when the fight enters the double figures.

Liston's spanner comes into the works in the form of boxing ability that has to be contended with and clubbing power. Holmes has to fight smart, but the danger is still present - he can't diffuse Liston like he did Shavers.

However, Holmes has much going for him to see himself through this challenge. Holmes had great flexibility; he was smooth, he was quick - that machine-gun jab could bang out a tune at times and he'd get it under way pronto.

Larry's career gets ridiculed for the fact he often played-down to the level of his opponents-always keeping them on a leash. With Larry it was detention rather than Liston's style of expelling you from the school yard. If needed, Holmes could fight smart. Liston's big shots would prove the wake-up calls.

Pace is a key factor; Liston will constantly dig away for the gold while he is exposed to a very warm kitchen. Holmes does not have to survive like Machen, he is a big guy with reach and height - he will have good spells in ring centre.

15 rounds with Holmes would prove too much of a chore for Liston. Ultimately, they were men of quite different mentalities. Liston was a mean fighter, Holmes was a lion-hearted glory hunter. Liston gives him an uncomfortable ride, but the guts of Holmes see his talent through in the championship rounds.

[Bill1234]

In this match-up the faith has to be with Holmes.

Liston has the tools to win, he always had 'dem great tools, but he was never one to grind out a performance.

To beat the late seventies/early eighties Larry Holmes you have to have a plan, a V. good plan, and see it through with guts and fire when the fight enters the double figures.

Liston's spanner comes into the works in the form of boxing ability that has to be contended with and clubbing power. Holmes has to fight smart, but the danger is still present - he can't diffuse Liston like he did Shavers.

However, Holmes has much going for him to see himself through this challenge. Holmes had great flexibility; he was smooth, he was quick - that machine-gun jab could bang out a tune at times and he'd get it under way pronto.

Larry's career gets ridiculed for the fact he often played-down to the level of his opponents-always keeping them on a leash. With Larry it was detention rather than Liston's style of expelling you from the school yard. If needed, Holmes could fight smart. Liston's big shots would prove the wake-up calls.

Pace is a key factor; Liston will constantly dig away for the gold while he is exposed to a very warm kitchen. Holmes does not have to survive like Machen, he is a big guy with reach and height - he will have good spells in ring centre.

15 rounds with Holmes would prove too much of a chore for Liston. Ultimately, they were men of quite different mentalities. Liston was a mean fighter, Holmes was a lion-hearted glory hunter. Liston gives him an uncomfortable ride, but the guts of Holmes see his talent through in the championship rounds.

Couldn't have said it better my self if I tried (which I did, thats how I know).

[Quick Cash]

Liston was an absolute killer on the inside. One of the better ones in the heavyweight division, to be honest. On the outside, he tended to favor his left jab far too often; a good technical strategy generally speaking, but a critical error when across the ring with Holmes. Furthermore, he fired his crosses and hooks too infrequently to be a factor against a Larry Holmes type of fighter, in my opinion.

I pick Holmes, tired, battered, and bruised by the 15th round, to win a clear unanimous decision, though looking worse from wear than Sonny

[ChrisPontius]

This one comes down to speed and mobility, and Holmes has a significant edge on Liston in that respect. Ali had the fastest jab, and Liston may have had the hardest (along with Louis), but Larry had the best overall jab in the history of the division. He'd continually beat Sonny to the punch with it.

Shavers and Cooney tried desperately to attack Holmes downstairs to no avail, and Liston wouldn't have any more success than they did. Sonny's most dangerous weapon was his hook, not a punch Larry was particularly susceptible to. Shavers had underrated handspeed, and a lethal right which carried more one punch power than what Liston had in his arsenal. When I look at how Holmes shut out Earnie in their first meeting, I just don't see that version of Larry wearing down against the Liston of the Machen and Williams fights. Sonny was tough as nails physically, but that wouldn't do a plodder like him any good with a master boxer of Holmes's size and caliber.

Liston was no infallible finisher, as Leotis Martin demonstrated. If he did manage to stun Larry somehow, Holmes would quickly regain his bearings. As he proved against Earnie, no one punch would have been sufficient to take him out at his peak. This would be a long frustrating matchup for Sonny.

Holmes UD 15 Liston

For this one time i have to agree with your assesement. Speed will be an important factor and Holmes is much, much faster than the slow, straight, plodding Liston. I see Holmes' heart pulling him through rough moments, whereas you can't be sure if Liston's heart keeps him up as history has shown.

[robert ungurean]

I like Holmes by UD.

[Bummy Davis]

Holmes should be able to outbox him for the most part but Sonny had a good right and had a punchers chance vs Holmes who was vulnerable to lesser men

[Bill1234]

Holmes should be able to outbox him for the most part but Sonny had a good right and had a punchers chance vs Holmes who was vulnerable to lesser men

Only when he got too comfortable for example Shavers and Snipes. He got too comfortable, and they nailed him with some of the best right hands that they ever through. Especially Shavers. Larry wouldn't have been too comfortable in the ring with Liston, so his guard would be up a lot.

[KTFO]

I like Holmes by UD.



:yep :good

[DocDevil]

This one comes down to speed and mobility, and Holmes has a significant edge on Liston in that respect. Ali had the fastest jab, and Liston may have had the hardest (along with Louis), but Larry had the best overall jab in the history of the division. He'd continually beat Sonny to the punch with it.

Shavers and Cooney tried desperately to attack Holmes downstairs to no avail, and Liston wouldn't have any more success than they did. Sonny's most dangerous weapon was his hook, not a punch Larry was particularly susceptible to. Shavers had underrated handspeed, and a lethal right which carried more one punch power than what Liston had in his arsenal. When I look at how Holmes shut out Earnie in their first meeting, I just don't see that version of Larry wearing down against the Liston of the Machen and Williams fights. Sonny was tough as nails physically, but that wouldn't do a plodder like him any good with a master boxer of Holmes's size and caliber.

Liston was no infallible finisher, as Leotis Martin demonstrated. If he did manage to stun Larry somehow, Holmes would quickly regain his bearings. As he proved against Earnie, no one punch would have been sufficient to take him out at his peak. This would be a long frustrating matchup for Sonny.

Holmes UD 15 Liston

Bringing up Liston and Martin,is like Holmes and Tyson.Both Liston and Holmes were past it in these fights

[DocDevil]

Gerry Cooney was a vicious body puncher, his left hook to the liver was devastating, and it only phased Larry once. Larry was able to take great body shots, which is another reason why I think Larry would take him.


Cooney nor Shavers had the defense or the durabilty of Liston.

[DocDevil]

Eddie Machen managed to stay away from Liston for 12rds.and Holmes would too.Larry also had an excellent left jab,very good boxing skills,and he got up off the deck against Shavers proving he could shake off a hard shot.I think Larry lets Liston follow him all night and boxes his way to a U.D.Thanks.

Machen did an excellent job of staying away from Liston,and he lost.

[Bill1234]

Cooney nor Shavers had the defense or the durabilty of Liston.

No, but they had the power and heart.

[prime]

Very, very close. Holmes' greater heart sees him through to a decision victory. The record shows how Liston, for all his amazing tools, folded when losing at the championship level. Besides, he was not fast enough to catch Holmes the required several times for a KO win. Holmes, on the other hand, had the skills to survive and win over a rough-and-tumble 15 rounds, if Liston does not quit first.

[Muchmoore]

I know Liston was much better than Shavers, but IMO his jab wouldn't set much up. IMO he wasn't fast enough to set the punches up. For Holmes, usually you hand to land the bomb from no where right on the button for him to go down. Shavers and Snipes proved that. But yet a guy like Cooney who was an extremly hard hitter, and IMO just as hard a hitter as Liston, couldn't put Larry down, or hurt him. The worst Larry was hurt through out the whole fight was the big low blow Cooney hit Larry with.

Earnie Shavers didn't even know how to set up punches and he was slow. Liston's jab made it easy to set up right hands and was a million times better than Snipes or Shavers at landing big punches.

[Duodenum]

Bringing up Liston and Martin,is like Holmes and Tyson.Both Liston and Holmes were past it in these fightsLarry was coming off an 18 month layoff against Tyson, a period of time which began with him essentially in retirement. On the other hand, Liston had been active leading up to the Martin loss, and had failed to put Henry Clark down and out a year and a half earlier, despite nailing him with solid shots. (If Clark had boxed smartly, he would have beaten Liston. Sonny was huffing and puffing when the referee stopped it in his favor prematurely.)

A peak Liston also displayed problems finishing off Bert Whitehurst in their rematch. Sonny clobbered Whitehurst at the outset of round nine, but failed to get him out in nearly three minutes of action. When I look at Liston/Whitehurst II, and then compare it to Holmes/Shavers I (because they were about the same age for those bouts), I simply don't see how Liston could have pulled it off over Larry.

Snipes tore after Holmes like a bat out of hell after ambushing him, yet actually lost the remainder of that round, over two and a half minutes in which to finish Larry off, as fast and well-conditioned as Snipes was. Even against Tyson, an aged and extremely rusty Holmes remained on his feet for over 45 seconds before he was finally dropped for the third time, and Larry very nearly got through that fourth round with a peak Tyson. In top form, 45 seconds would be more than enough time for Holmes to recover from being stunned.

For over three rounds, even a badly overmatched Billy McMurray was able to outmanuever and outjab Liston. Whitehurst was able to elude the jab of a young Sonny, and the jab of an experienced Liston could also be slipped.

Holmes was on his toes against Tyson only at the beginning of round four, but that was enough to demonstrate how the Holmes of the first Shavers fight would have outboxed peak Tyson over 15.

Liston's jab would have been a terrific weapon to neutralize the physical strength of musclemen like Jeffries and Foreman, but a faster and more defensively skilled stylist could evade it without too much difficulty. For as long as it lasted, McMurray didn't really give Sonny a chance to bring his body attack into play, and Liston was only able to use it briefly against a blinded challenger when he lost the title. It wouldn't have been much of a factor against Holmes.

Sonny's patience might also prove a liability with a boxer whose approach was predicated on scoring points. Larry's stoppage wins usually came about as a desirable by-product of outboxing his opponents.

Could Larry stop Liston? I don't know that he had the firepower necessary to force a stoppage, but he certainly could have made Sonny quit out of frustration. He may very possibly have been able to outjab Liston as badly as Tunney outjabbed Gibbons.

While Shavers didn't have Sonny's boxing skills, Liston didn't have Earnie's handspeed either (at least not in my estimation). His right wouldn't be fast enough to solidly strike Larry with any regularity.

My best guess is that Holmes would introduce Liston to a 15 round decision loss, but only if Sonny's willing to stick around long enough to sustain it. I wouldn't be surprised if he pulled a French exit before the time limit expired though.

[JohnThomas1]

Larry was coming off an 18 month layoff against Tyson, a period of time which began with him essentially in retirement. On the other hand, Liston had been active leading up to the Martin loss, and had failed to put Henry Clark down and out a year and a half earlier, despite nailing him with solid shots. (If Clark had boxed smartly, he would have beaten Liston. Sonny was huffing and puffing when the referee stopped it in his favor prematurely.)


Bottom line tho, this was VERY old and WAY past it Liston, just like the other scenario's mentioned. Impartial debate should be ignoring these stages.

A peak Liston also displayed problems finishing off Bert Whitehurst in their rematch. Sonny clobbered Whitehurst at the outset of round nine, but failed to get him out in nearly three minutes of action. When I look at Liston/Whitehurst II, and then compare it to Holmes/Shavers I (because they were about the same age for those bouts), I simply don't see how Liston could have pulled it off over Larry.

Pro Liston viewers will look at Snipes and Weaver and feel confident the other way too.

Snipes tore after Holmes like a bat out of hell after ambushing him, yet actually lost the remainder of that round, over two and a half minutes in which to finish Larry off, as fast and well-conditioned as Snipes was.

Some points, Snipes wasn't a massive hitter, wasn't a great fighter and was quite green. Kudo's to Larry's awesome heart and recupe but Snipes ain't no Liston that's for sure.

Holmes was on his toes against Tyson only at the beginning of round four, but that was enough to demonstrate how the Holmes of the first Shavers fight would have outboxed peak Tyson over 15.

Holmes UD is my pick too, but it's a tight one to call.

Liston's jab would have been a terrific weapon to neutralize the physical strength of musclemen like Jeffries and Foreman, but a faster and more defensively skilled stylist could evade it without too much difficulty. For as long as it lasted, McMurray didn't really give Sonny a chance to bring his body attack into play, and Liston was only able to use it briefly against a blinded challenger when he lost the title. It wouldn't have been much of a factor against Holmes.

Liston's jab was proven over time and seemed quite handy vs the ultra speedy Patterson. The jabbing match would have been fascinating IMO.

While Shavers didn't have Sonny's boxing skills, Liston didn't have Earnie's handspeed either (at least not in my estimation). His right wouldn't be fast enough to solidly strike Larry with any regularity.

I'd hardly call Shavers fast or compact, some of his right hands come from a different postcode. Liston put punches togather far better and was far superior to Shavers timing wise. Weaver's hardly fast or uniquely gifted and was green at the time but he sure got his licks in.

My best guess is that Holmes would introduce Liston to a 15 round decision loss, but only if Sonny's willing to stick around long enough to sustain it. I wouldn't be surprised if he pulled a French exit before the time limit expired though.

I'd say the punters would be on the Holmes UD too.

[Duodenum]

Bottom line tho, this was VERY old and WAY past it Liston, just like the other scenario's mentioned. Impartial debate should be ignoring these stages.All right then, fair enough.Pro Liston viewers will look at Snipes and Weaver and feel confident the other way too.Granted, the fact that Holmes didn't provide rematches is probably the biggest ***** in his resume. Having expressed that, I would suggest that Sonny's inability to take out Whitehurst in a return go is perhaps more significant. This was his first opponent to last the ten round distance, so I'd expect Liston to improve considerably on his previous showing. While he did drop Whitehurst, and had him climbing back through the ropes from outside the ring as time expired, he didn't improve in the rematch as much as might be expected. Maybe Whitehurst was merely to Liston what Lowry was to Marciano, or Chaplin was to Page. In any event, Weaver was no come from behind victory for Holmes, and he won it with a single uppercut.

Larry's one noteworthy rematch was against Shavers, and while Earnie dumped Holmes on his back the second time around, he was otherwise shut out again, and failed to last the distance.Some points, Snipes wasn't a massive hitter, wasn't a great fighter and was quite green. Kudo's to Larry's awesome heart and recupe but Snipes ain't no Liston that's for sure.No, Snipes certainly wasn't Liston, and Holmes would be prepared accordingly. Even the lightest hitters can turn one over on occasion, and Renaldo produced the punch of a lifetime. Unfortunately for him, it wasn't Lennox Lewis or Big John Tate he was challenging.

Mr. Snipes was supposed to be an easy homecoming title defense, a challenger who hadn't displayed the ability to break an eggshell in any of his televised appearances prior to that. Lennox Lewis became a former champion twice because of such a surprising missile. Much of Larry's title reign is a story of upsets which should have happened but didn't. It wasn't simply heart and recuperative powers which carried him, but tremendous intelligence, resourcefulness and adaptability to unexpected circumstances which set him apart from many champions.
Holmes UD is my pick too, but it's a tight one to call.
The puncher's chance is always implicit in such a contest, so Larry would remain vigilant. His focus was so acute in the first Shavers match that the few momentary lapses in concentration he did have were glaring. But he zoned out far less than most would have.Liston's jab was proven over time and seemed quite handy vs the ultra speedy Patterson. The jabbing match would have been fascinating IMO.While I'm not sure I buy Ali's claim that Floyd would have beaten Sonny if he'd used the same tactics with Liston that he employed against Chuvalo, the fact remains that Patterson did not perform intelligently in either bout, and would have been far more effective moving laterally. Floyd's approach to Liston largely negated his speed advantage. (A shot version of Frazier boxed far more intelligently in his return with a dethroned and vexed Foreman, hungry for redemption.)I'd hardly call Shavers fast or compact, some of his right hands come from a different postcode. Liston put punches togather far better and was far superior to Shavers timing wise. Weaver's hardly fast or uniquely gifted and was green at the time but he sure got his licks in.No, but Shavers did have underrated handspeed, and an excellent reach. Like Snipes, Weaver had the element of surprise on his side, yet it wasn't enough, and he later demonstrated what kind of punch Holmes had withstood against Tate, Coetzee and Carl Williams. I don't know that I'd describe Weaver as green at the time he challenged Holmes. He'd been in against the Bobick brothers for extended matches, had gone 12 rounds in a losing effort against Leroy Jones, and went 21 total rounds with Stan Ward (avenging a decision loss with a nine round kayo). He'd also knocked out dangerous up and comer Mercado, so Hercules did have a variety of experience against accomplished world class amateurs, large skillful boxers, and a deadly slugger in Mercado. Weaver had more professional experience than Witherspoon, Williams, Marvis Frazier, Leon Spinks, or a number of other HW Title challengers.
I'd say the punters would be on the Holmes UD too.As always, you've provided thoughtful and challenging commentary here. The final thing I'd like to point out is that Larry dealt pretty effectively with huge punchers throughout his career. (His rusty showing against Tyson is a noteworthy exception, but even then, Holmes lasted longer than 22 of Tyson's opponents up to that time, and he was just five seconds away from escaping out of round four. This against one of the fastest starting HW Champions of all time, when he was peaking.) When fully prepared against a heavy bomber, Larry was extremely difficult to deal with. (My apologies if this post seems somewhat distracted, but there's been a very loud and damaging vehicle collision outside from where I'm typing. There don't appear to be any injuries, but I think the cars will be scrapped.)

[JohnThomas1]

All right then, fair enough.Granted, the fact that Holmes didn't provide rematches is probably the biggest ***** in his resume. Having expressed that, I would suggest that Sonny's inability to take out Whitehurst in a return go is perhaps more significant. This was his first opponent to last the ten round distance, so I'd expect Liston to improve considerably on his previous showing.

I'd hardly use it to judge him so heavily tho. As you mention, at least he gave rematches, we can only guess how Larry would have went in them. A small point, there was only 6 months and 5 rounds between fights for Sonny, he was essentially the same fighter, and tho vs crap Whitehurst wasn't stopped for nearly 3 years after. Sometimes guys don't go as well vs our expectation, it can be style or many other things. I must rewatch the fight.

In any event, Weaver was no come from behind victory for Holmes, and he won it with a single uppercut.

Lets not fob off this one, Weaver gave Larry kittens. Holmes was ahead by a couple of points but this was one hell of a battle with Weaver at some stages looking a good chance of emerging victorious. It was commonly reported Larry was saved from further drama by the uppercut, that's how the fight was sitting.

Larry's one noteworthy rematch was against Shavers, and while Earnie dumped Holmes on his back the second time around, he was otherwise shut out again, and failed to last the distance.

Holmes was also a bee's dick off losing by stoppage, tho he was masterful either side of it. Earnie was closer to beating Holmes than he was against numerous much lesser fighters.

No, Snipes certainly wasn't Liston, and Holmes would be prepared accordingly. Even the lightest hitters can turn one over on occasion, and Renaldo produced the punch of a lifetime. Unfortunately for him, it wasn't Lennox Lewis or Big John Tate he was challenging.

Snipes wouldn't have been around long enough to land it vs Lewis and peak Holmes was caught sight unseen i reckon, something peak Lewis would not have been IMO. Even so there's no absolute guarantee this punch drops either, it was a combination of circumstances.

Mr. Snipes was supposed to be an easy homecoming title defense, a challenger who hadn't displayed the ability to break an eggshell in any of his televised appearances prior to that. Lennox Lewis became a former champion twice because of such a surprising missile. Much of Larry's title reign is a story of upsets which should have happened but didn't. It wasn't simply heart and recuperative powers which carried him, but tremendous intelligence, resourcefulness and adaptability to unexpected circumstances which set him apart from many champions.

Fair post. To expand Lewis first time out had some serious technical issues and the second was again a combination of factors for which Lewis paid the price, then returned with interest. He came back to prove it a fluke that was never going to happen with him at 100%. Larry was very close to these scenario's, it can't be denied. As you say, a combination of great things got him thru, quite a few times. He was certainly the goods when hurt and under pressure, but detractors will say look at who he was actually under pressure against.

The puncher's chance is always implicit in such a contest, so Larry would remain vigilant. His focus was so acute in the first Shavers match that the few momentary lapses in concentration he did have were glaring. But he zoned out far less than most would have.

Masterful boxing displays, but other fighters no-where near as great as Holmes took Shavers out or beat him with ease. Shavers isn't hard to outbox for top flight heavyweights.

While I'm not sure I buy Ali's claim that Floyd would have beaten Sonny if he'd used the same tactics with Liston that he employed against Chuvalo, the fact remains that Patterson did not perform intelligently in either bout, and would have been far more effective moving laterally. Floyd's approach to Liston largely negated his speed advantage. (A shot version of Frazier boxed far more intelligently in his return with a dethroned and vexed Foreman, hungry for redemption.)

Lets be honest, Patterson was never ever going to blow wind up Sonny's arse. You're bring in many what if's and stretching real hard to take a little from Liston. What if Shavers got his hands moving and pressured Holmes a bit more after the KD, what if Snipes attacked with more intelligence? What if Witherspoon didn't dance late and put heavy pressure on? Come on, Floyd absolutely decimated Patterson not once, but twice. I am surprised you could question such compelling performances.

No, but Shavers did have underrated handspeed, and an excellent reach.

Many would say Earnie was basically a clubfighter with a massive punch that brought him up the scale a little.

Like Snipes, Weaver had the element of surprise on his side, yet it wasn't enough, and he later demonstrated what kind of punch Holmes had withstood against Tate, Coetzee and Carl Williams.

Nobodies questioning Larry's chin, but Weaver ain't no Liston.

I don't know that I'd describe Weaver as green at the time he challenged Holmes. He'd been in against the Bobick brothers for extended matches, had gone 12 rounds in a losing effort against Leroy Jones, and went 21 total rounds with Stan Ward (avenging a decision loss with a nine round kayo). He'd also knocked out dangerous up and comer Mercado, so Hercules did have a variety of experience against accomplished world class amateurs, large skillful boxers, and a deadly slugger in Mercado. Weaver had more professional experience than Witherspoon, Williams, Marvis Frazier, Leon Spinks, or a number of other HW Title challengers.

Fair post, i like Weaver. He did however lack that something, was it inner fire at times? Self belief? Hindsight makes him a good win, tho at the time he was considered a B grader.

As always, you've provided thoughtful and challenging commentary here.

A pleasure chatting mate, you're like a breath of fresh air. I'm not actually opposed to your prediction here, just trying to get Sonny a bit of leeway.

The final thing I'd like to point out is that Larry dealt pretty effectively with huge punchers throughout his career.

There'in lay the $10 000 000 question. Larry was proven against big punchers but not big punchers with the greatness of Liston, which makes this an open bout.

(His rusty showing against Tyson is a noteworthy exception, but even then, Holmes lasted longer than 22 of Tyson's opponents up to that time, and he was just five seconds away from escaping out of round four. This against one of the fastest starting HW Champions of all time, when he was peaking.)

You and i are both above attacking shot or way past it fighters. You don't have to defend Holmes vs Tyson because quite frankly i don't hold it against him one iota. We don't need to talk Tyson and Martin, we are talking peak.

When fully prepared against a heavy bomber, Larry was extremely difficult to deal with.

Yes, as said above, Liston is another level altogether.

Again, if a gun was to my head i'd take Larry via decision, but there are enough questions of Holmes vs much better opposition than he actually fought to make this fight very defendable from Liston's perspective. A great matchup.

[Holmes' Jab]

Holmes, by very close UD. This would be a great matchup, Liston would be a threat right 'till the last bell.

[jyuza]

That thread was really interesting.

[Boxed Ears]

Holmes didn't have one legendary physical attribute like Liston's punching power. His speed was very good, sometimes looked great, but nothing legendary. Power, very good, but not great. Chin, excellent but he could be hurt pretty seriously, here and there. Recovery, stamina, terrific, but not an over-the-top unbelievable thing. But people get easily awed by single standout attributes and overrate the total package based on them. The real standout as a total package would be Larry, here. And he'd likely win.

He had everything to draw on physically and mentally to weather Liston's power when it got to him and outdo him, even if he had to draw on everything he had. He could fight inside, mid-range, outside, clean or dirty, whatever it took. And Liston never came into contact with someone who was as good a total package as Larry without folding. Larry came across what I'd consider a better total package than Liston in Holyfield when he himself was an old guy and still put on a good and impressive account of himself. Might Liston stop him? Yeah, a puncher's chance for a legendary puncher who was fairly smart too? Sure. But I certainly wouldn't favour him. Liston by UD, or late stoppage, for me. Pick, pick, pick, pick him apart.

[ETM]

I think Holmes could control pockets of the fight with his boxing skills, height and range. I believe Liston would make Larry pay a toll even in the rounds Holmes won.

Larry Holmes might land his jab more often but Liston would be stuffing his jab in Holmes face as well and it carried alot of force. Sonny`s lefthook was kind of quick and Holmes had a tendency to fall asleep over the course of a long fight.

I dont think he could afford to do this against a banger and a finisher like Sonny Liston.

Id take Liston by TKO 9-11 rounds.

[MRBILL]

Holmes by 11th round TKO........ Liston is powerful and game, but eats too many Holmes jabs and crisp rights and becomes fatigued / bloodied... Liston is on his feet when the ref steps in......

NOTE:

Liston was a bully who liked to have it his way in the ring. When matched with a man of superior skill and speed, Liston usually caved in...
:deal:bbb:good

Holmes sweet Holmes.

MR.BILL:hat

[jyuza]

Holmes by 11th round TKO........ Liston is powerful and game, but eats too many Holmes jabs and crisp rights and becomes fatigued / bloodied... Liston is on his feet when the ref steps in......

NOTE:

Liston was a bully who liked to have it his way in the ring. When matched with a man of superior skill and speed, Liston usually caved in...
:deal:bbb:good

Holmes sweet Holmes.

MR.BILL:hat

Holmes never fought the third of a fighter the caliber of Sonny Liston (except Mike Tyson whom he got KO'd brutally).

[MAG1965]

holmes by TKO

[MRBILL]

Holmes in his prime doesn't lose to a shorter man of great strength and power who was also slower and more ponderous.... Liston was skilled, but Holmes' speed and savvy would be the key to beat Liston.... Holmes by late rds TKO.....

MR.BILL

[zadfrak]

I think Holmes could control pockets of the fight with his boxing skills, height and range. I believe Liston would make Larry pay a toll even in the rounds Holmes won.

Larry Holmes might land his jab more often but Liston would be stuffing his jab in Holmes face as well and it carried alot of force. Sonny`s lefthook was kind of quick and Holmes had a tendency to fall asleep over the course of a long fight.

I dont think he could afford to do this against a banger and a finisher like Sonny Liston.

Id take Liston by TKO 9-11 rounds.

Exactly the same scenario I see happening.

Larry is/was a pitchers mound fighter. If an opponent lets them set up out there and play pitch and catch, they get dominated and reach/defense/punching power/endurance/strength/etc are all negated and turned into non-factors.

Liston is not going to play that game and do what Larry wants him to do. That means things like you said--eating a jab from Holmes but firing back his own in a millisecond. Larry holds that right hand low when he did jab and an opponent has to grit his teeth and fire back just like Witherspoon.

That reduces the effectiveness of Larry's jab and he relied so much on dominating opponents with that punch. But now you have lefthooks coming into play--and Sonny maybe had the best or 2nd best to Louis, the division has ever seen. Larry had more of a poor man's Ali windshield swipe. huge advantage for Sonny and he threw great hooks off that landed jab. That jabbed didn't flick but moved opponents and then Sonny fired off that nasty left hook. And Larry better not throw his right uppercut from the outside against this guy or he gets beat to the punch by that lefthook.

I also think Liston has much the better right hand of the 2. Holmes was a 1-2 fighter and I just think he has to have a better lefthook to add to that for this particular opponent. And finishing skills come into play and if a guy is not a top notch finisher, Holmes is too savvy and too good of an escape artist. Nobody that is not a top notch finisher is stopping Larry Holmes.

It sure would be a great fight though and Larry Holmes is going to dig deep and is going to hang tough.

[gentleman jim]

Holmes brings just the right tools to the fight I think to beat Liston. He's taller than Sonny, faster in both hands and feet and he's a technically sound boxer with a good chin and good recuperative abilities. Sonny was a bit too methodical and slow for a prime Holmes. Sure he would get in his share of shots but Larry could survive them en route to a decision victory, As always in Boxing it's styles that make fights and Larry has the right style for someone like Liston. Give Liston equal hand and foot speed and he wins when combined with his power. He doesn't have it though and that's why Holmes would win. Holmes was also mentally stronger which can often be the big difference in a fight between two equally matched opponents. Homes by decision or late round stoppage.