Ali vs Holmes

[garymcfall]

Looking back on the fight, it was lucky that Holmes held back to prevent Ali being badly hurt, but my question is, had it been someone like Tyson in place of Holmes that night, do you think he would have held back, or would he have went at Ali with the same brutality he did all of his opponents. Talking prime tyson btw

[Dostoevsky]

Of course Tyson wouldn't have held back.
What a silly question.

[mr. magoo]

[quote=garymcfall]Looking back on the fight, it was lucky that Holmes held back to prevent Ali being badly hurt,

After watching that bout on several occassions, it didn't look to me that Holmes was holding back, and nor did he prevent Ali from being badly hurt. Holmes looked the fastest that I had ever seen him, and was attacking Ali in much the same way that he unleashed against Cooney in the later rounds. At one point, Holmes had Ali against the ropes, and his trainer was yelling " dig in!! " and with that Holmes proceeded to nail Ali with a barage of vicious shots. At the end of the day, Ali's face was dreadfully pummeled, and for the first time in his life, looked like a truly beaten fighter.

[Bill1234]

In the first few rounds Larry beat him like he would have anyone else, unitl he realized that he might hurt Ali pretty badly. So he started just pitter patering Ali, he was hitting Ali like he would in sparring. Then he would at times hit Ali with a combo so the ref would step in and call it, but the ref never did. Then Larry hit Ali with a good uppercut that almost dropped Ali and only the ropes held him up. If it was in the center of the ring, Ali would have been KO'd. Then about a minute later Larry hit Ali with a good body shot and Ali doubled over. Larry said he heard Ali groan in pain with that. IMO Ali could have gotten badly hurt if Larry wanted to do it. But if it were Tyson in the ring that night, he would have killed Ali, possibly litteraly.

[Dostoevsky]

Larry should just have went out there and bomb Ali out in the first 3 rounds.
It probably would have stopped Ali from making another ridiculous comeback against Berbick and in the long run would have saved him from more long term damage.

Larry just prolonged the beating, perhaps he thought he was helping.

[Bill1234]

I think a lot of it was that Larry didn't want to hurt him, so he was afraid to hit Ali as hard as he could, and as much as he could.

[JohnThomas1]

The question, what is worse? A prolonged beating of medium intensity or a short stoppage?


Tyson might have got frustrated if Ali kept standing and DQ'd!

:smoke

[Bummy Davis]

I like Ali by UD or late TKO

[Bill1234]

The question, what is worse? A prolonged beating of medium intensity or a short stoppage?

Good question. IMO they are about the same. The medium pro longed beating would make you more sore, but is it better in the long run? Or is a short, devastating stoppage/KO that will cause you a lot of quick trauma. IMO in the long run the medium pro longed beating would be better in the long run. Your brain probably wouldn't be beat around as bad.

[Bill1234]

I like Ali by UD or late TKO

Ummmmmmmmm ok, but were talking about the fight they had, not prime vs prime.

[Dempsey1238]

Not sure, if Holmes stop Ali in 1 or 2 rounds, FAST. I think it be better for Ali in the long run. Less punchings. Louis took out Lewis in 1 round as so to not harm his blind buddy. The shorter the fight, the less punchings his freind takes. Ali did the same thing to Williams takeing out a guy with a bullet in his lung. One of Ali's freinds in the interview said Ali talk about this, and did not want to hurt Willams to bad. Whats the best way to do this ete. Than his freind brought up the Louis Lewis fight. Ali went out there and took Williams out in 3 rounds. It was better than holded him up for 11 rounds taking pot shots. You get your brain rattle MORE with the prolong beating Holmes did.

[Bummy Davis]

Good question. IMO they are about the same. The medium pro longed beating would make you more sore, but is it better in the long run? Or is a short, devastating stoppage/KO that will cause you a lot of quick trauma. IMO in the long run the medium pro longed beating would be better in the long run. Your brain probably wouldn't be beat around as bad.


Oh Ali was really shot by that time and had to take drugs to lose weight to look good, Ali would have been Ko'd in 1 by any ATG puncher

[Bill1234]

Not sure, if Holmes stop Ali in 1 or 2 rounds, FAST. I think it be better for Ali in the long run. Less punchings. Louis took out Lewis in 1 round as so to not harm his blind buddy. The shorter the fight, the less punchings his freind takes. Ali did the same thing to Williams takeing out a guy with a bullet in his lung. One of Ali's freinds in the interview said Ali talk about this, and did not want to hurt Willams to bad. Whats the best way to do this ete. Than his freind brought up the Louis Lewis fight. Ali went out there and took Williams out in 3 rounds. It was better than holded him up for 11 rounds taking pot shots. You get your brain rattle MORE with the prolong beating Holmes did.

Good point.

[Bill1234]

Oh Ali was really shot by that time and had to take drugs to lose weight to look good, Ali would have been Ko'd in 1 by any ATG puncher

If Larry went after him like he did Frazier or Leon Spinks, IMO Larry could have taken him out in 3-5 rounds, but he was afraid to let his full power fly. He fought Ali like they were sparring.

[GazOC]

I always liked that quote from Holmes that went something like "I'm more proud of sparing with Ali in his prime then beating him as an old man".

Class.

[Bill1234]

Fighting Ali for Holmes was like fighting Louis for Marciano. He never wanted to do it. Holmes much rather would have fought Ali 4 years earlier when Ali was still a great fighter. Ali was a fool to come out of retirement and fight Larry.

[JohnThomas1]

Fighting Ali for Holmes was like fighting Marciano for Louis. He never wanted to do it. Holmes much rather would have fought Ali 4 years earlier when Ali was still a great fighter. Ali was a fool to come out of retirement and fight Larry.

You might mean like fighting Louis for Marciano, not the other way around.

[Bill1234]

You might mean like fighting Louis for Marciano, not the other way around.

Oh, my mistake.:oops:

[Dempsey1238]

Well I have a hard time saying Marciano Louis was like Ali Holmes though. Louis was not a corpse in that ring. He was still beating top contenders and was the number 1 contender for the fight with Rocky. Louis earn his rank. sure he jump into with Charles, but after that, he rebuild.

I not sure Ali would have beating the top ten of 1980 in his bout with Holmes. Ali was a Corpse. He had WAY less than what Louis had left. I take the Louis of 51 over Ali of 1980 easy.

[JohnThomas1]

Oh, my mistake.:oops:

Just thought i'd point it out, i knew what you meant but some might not pick it up, or have a go.

[Bill1234]

Just thought i'd point it out, i knew what you meant but some might not pick it up, or have a go.

Yep, thanks I fixed it.

[AnthonyJ74]

Well I have a hard time saying Marciano Louis was like Ali Holmes though. Louis was not a corpse in that ring. He was still beating top contenders and was the number 1 contender for the fight with Rocky. Louis earn his rank. sure he jump into with Charles, but after that, he rebuild.

I not sure Ali would have beating the top ten of 1980 in his bout with Holmes. Ali was a Corpse. He had WAY less than what Louis had left. I take the Louis of 51 over Ali of 1980 easy.

I've seen footage of Ali sparring with Marty Monroe prior to Ali's fight with Holmes. And Ali looked pathetic. How anybody in their right mind could think that Ali would have a shot at beating Holmes is beyond me.

I think for Ali it was a combination of age, inactivity, the thyroid medication, and the early effects of the Parkinson's. He had absolutely nothing against Holmes!

[Bill1234]

I think for Ali it was a combination of age, inactivity, the thyroid medication, and the early effects of the Parkinson's. He had absolutely nothing against Holmes!

Like I said, I think he was a fool to challenge Holmes. Now, if he did in 1978 or something, he wouldn't be a fool, it would just be a bad idea.

[Dempsey1238]

I still favor Holmes pretty heavy in 1978. I think people are putting blinders on if people give Ali a shot vs Holmes in 78. Ali had just LOST to a 7-0 fighter. Ali was not as bad as 1980 of couse. But he was a few levels below Holmes by that point.

[AnthonyJ74]

I still favor Holmes pretty heavy in 1978. I think people are putting blinders on if people give Ali a shot vs Holmes in 78. Ali had just LOST to a 7-0 fighter. Ali was not as bad as 1980 of couse. But he was a few levels below Holmes by that point.

Agreed. I think the Muhammad Ali of Zaire or even Manilla would have been a good fight for a prime Larry Holmes. I would probably still favor Holmes to win - at least against the Ali of Manilla - but they would be competitive fights.

[Bill1234]

I still favor Holmes pretty heavy in 1978. I think people are putting blinders on if people give Ali a shot vs Holmes in 78. Ali had just LOST to a 7-0 fighter. Ali was not as bad as 1980 of couse. But he was a few levels below Holmes by that point.

I think Holmes could have given Ali a run for his money in 76, and beat him in 77. Like Larry said in his book, he stopped being sparring partner for Ali because he was beating Ali at times, and Ali felt he needed to prove something, so Larry realized he wasn't learning anything any more, and all he was doing was being in fights that were supposed to be sparring.

[Robbi]

I think Holmes could have given Ali a run for his money in 76, and beat him in 77. Like Larry said in his book, he stopped being sparring partner for Ali because he was beating Ali at times, and Ali felt he needed to prove something, so Larry realized he wasn't learning anything any more, and all he was doing was being in fights that were supposed to be sparring.

A run for his money in 1976, Holmes would soundly have beaten Ali.

[MRBILL]

Looking back on the fight, it was lucky that Holmes held back to prevent Ali being badly hurt, but my question is, had it been someone like Tyson in place of Holmes that night, do you think he would have held back, or would he have went at Ali with the same brutality he did all of his opponents. Talking prime tyson btw

I'm making a copy as we speak...... Ali looks GREAT---for a snapshot session............ BUT! Losing 35 to 40 pounds in THREE months dating back to early July '80 to Oct. 2nd, Ali was a ghost of his former self...... Ali had no strength or power in his body at all...... He was a hoax....... SAD!!! meanwhile, Larry Holmes at 211 pounds was in his prime and kicking ass hard....... Mismatch............. I will claim as well, no proof, that Ali had a small / early form of Park's syndrome occurring in his life at this juncture....... NOTE: Ali was not diagnosed until '84..........
:deal:bbb:hey:shock:

MR.BILL

[Bill Butcher]

Looking back on the fight, it was lucky that Holmes held back to prevent Ali being badly hurt, but my question is, had it been someone like Tyson in place of Holmes that night, do you think he would have held back, or would he have went at Ali with the same brutality he did all of his opponents. Talking prime tyson btw

Hard to say, look how Mike cut thru Holmes himself like nothing.... Tyson heavily respected Larry at that time but still - as he should have done - gave him a sparkling as it was his time & not Larry`s, passing of the torch etc..... Im almost certain that Mike respected & loved Ali more than he did Holmes but its hard to imagine a peak Tyson sitting potshotting & carrying a sitting duck - even if it was the God of HW history.


Botswana :smoke

[The Wanderer]

I think Tyson would have gone out there not quite in his usual fashion, but we would have started the first round strong because that was his approach. Maybe when he saw Ali had nothing he would have held back, being a student of the game and a fan of Ali, but I have to think that odds are he wouldn't and he'd look to be done as quickly as possible.

Larry should just have went out there and bomb Ali out in the first 3 rounds.
It probably would have stopped Ali from making another ridiculous comeback against Berbick and in the long run would have saved him from more long term damage.

I feel all the damage was already there. Foreman, Frazier III and Shavers did the majority of it. Hell, Ali says something like that he can't remember anything from the Shavers fight after Shavers hit him in the second round. :-(

Furthermore, if you watch any out of the ring media appearances Ali was doing at that time, the physical degradation he was suffering was quite visible.

I think Holmes could have given Ali a run for his money in 76, and beat him in 77.

This is probably the stereotypical answer, but I don't think Ali could have beat Holmes cleanly after Manila. Up until then, I'd make him the favorite. Maybe just after Manila it would have been close, but I have trouble picturing the Ali who benefited from the judges against Norton and arguably Young taking Holmes. Only the fact that Holmes was still somewhat green at that point keeps it from being a certainty.

[Stevie G]

[quote]

After watching that bout on several occassions, it didn't look to me that Holmes was holding back, and nor did he prevent Ali from being badly hurt. Holmes looked the fastest that I had ever seen him, and was attacking Ali in much the same way that he unleashed against Cooney in the later rounds. At one point, Holmes had Ali against the ropes, and his trainer was yelling " dig in!! " and with that Holmes proceeded to nail Ali with a barage of vicious shots. At the end of the day, Ali's face was dreadfully pummeled, and for the first time in his life, looked like a truly beaten fighter.
I go along with all of that. I still can't bring myself to watch that fight.after all this time.