1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

[streetsaresafer]

Same question as before but now if the fight happened in 1995.

While I liked Bowe to take the fight in 93, I like Lewis in 95.

Lewis was now hitting his prime, he had Steward, and his jab and defense had improved enough that I think he would outpoint Bowe in 95.

Prediction - Lewis UD - 116-112, 116-112, 115-113

Again I am curious to see how the votes go in this and how they go in 93. I suspect Lewis will take both polls, but that the 93 vote will be closer. We'll see.
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[godking]

Same question as before but now if the fight happened in 1995.

While I liked Bowe to take the fight in 93, I like Lewis in 95.

Lewis was now hitting his prime, he had Steward, and his jab and defense had improved enough that I think he would outpoint Bowe in 95.

Prediction - Lewis UD - 116-112, 116-112, 115-113

Again I am curious to see how the votes go in this and how they go in 93. I suspect Lewis will take both polls, but that the 93 vote will be closer. We'll see.
[Only registered and activated users can see links] Top ([Only registered and activated users can see links])Any version of Lewis beats Bowe.

Bowe was outjabbed by anyone who threw a jab at him and ducked every pucher of the era in an era with alot of punchers.

Bowe also had NO defense and could be hit at will this bodes bad against a puncher like Lewis .

[DamonD]

Not a points win, no way in hell...this is not a fight where either Bowe or Lewis are going to be holding back or fight tactical.

Expect it to be very brutal, hard-hitting and not particularly skillful.
And Lewis knocks him cold within 7 rounds.

[tays001]

lewis ko's bowe in 7

[Stonehands89]

Conditioned thus: Eddie Futch in Bowe's corner and Bowe comes in healthy at around 235. Bowe makes Lewis look amateurish on the way to a big win with a couple of scares because of his willingness to jam.

Bowe was a perfect heavyweight specimen -big, strong, fast, with timing and rythym, and the single best skillset I have ever seen on a man over 6'4.

So there is one vote for Bowe. Mine. But Bowe bests Lewis on the most important factor -skill. He was also faster than Lewis. He had a far better chin than Lewis. And I'd rather Futch in my corner over anyone, anytime.

Best for best? Bowe. I have no doubt about it at all.

[Russell]

Bowes too far gone by 95'... This is right before Golota dismantled him twice and Herbie had him out on his feet.

But if Bowe's in peak condition with a good corner man... Yeah, the fight could definitely go either way.

But as things were... Lewis.

Oh, anyone hear that Bowe has a fight scheduled for later this month? Guys only 40 this year... Who knows.

[Sakura]

Lewis

[ironchamp]

Not a points win, no way in hell...this is not a fight where either Bowe or Lewis are going to be holding back or fight tactical.

Expect it to be very brutal, hard-hitting and not particularly skillful.
And Lewis knocks him cold within 7 rounds.

You beat me to it. Although I was contemplating a 6th round stoppage in a fairly one sided fight.

In 1993 I think Bowe takes it. Lewis was still green, and Bowe IMO was in better condition all around. In 1995 Lewis had developed, no longer as rough around the edges and with Stewart in his corner he was a tactically superior fighter.

[The Kurgan]

I think both would try to get the other out as quickly as possible. The difference is, I think Lewis has the better defence, better techniqe, more power, and the advantage of a longer reach.

I actually think this would be a surprisingly early fight. Lewis I think was better equipped to start fast and would finish Bowe within three rounds.

Lewis TKO3

[Russell]

Lennox's defense is... weird.

Rahman and McCall both tagged him hard enough to get TKO victories over him, and both of those incidents happened years apart, the latter over a supposedly much improved, defense wise, Lewis.

Briggs had no problem landing a lot of hard shots, and only the ropes kept Lewis up at one point.

Tua and Mercer also landed good shots on him.

Hurm.

[ironchamp]

I think both would try to get the other out as quickly as possible. The difference is, I think Lewis has the better defence, better techniqe, more power, and the advantage of a longer reach.

I actually think this would be a surprisingly early fight. Lewis I think was better equipped to start fast and would finish Bowe within three rounds.

Lewis TKO3

I know Lewis batters him but 3 rounds? C'mon Give Riddick a little credit here.

[The Kurgan]

I know Lewis batters him but 3 rounds? C'mon Give Riddick a little credit here.

Lewis hits harder than anyone Bowe has ever faced, period. If we agree that Lewis has more power and more skill than Golota, we just have to look at what Golota was able to do to Bowe when he planted his feet. In the second round of their second fight, Bowe was falling about like a drunk when he was hurt.

Lewis was EXTREMELY aggressive against big men. He just plain didn't like to be in with them, especially after the McCall experience. I don't think Lewis could ever KO Bowe clean, because Bowe is the kind of fighter than is almost impossible to KO clean, but I think Lewis would make Bowe hit the canvas often enough for a compassionate ref to step in.

[DamonD]

Holyfield nearly KOd '95 Bowe clean with a single left hook...I think Lewis can do it.

But, if we're talking Lewis-Bowe '96, then that would be a shellacking in the order of 3 or 4 rounds.

I think Bowe '95 was a bit better and would last longer. That was really the last year after '92 where he kept himself in reasonable shape (if not '92 shape)

[Doppleganger]

Another vote for Lewis. TBH I don't see this going past 3 rounds. Bowe does not have the chin to take the overhand Lewis right and he can't get out of the way of right hands at the best of times. Lewis TKO 3.

[streetsaresafer]

Not surprised at the voting

Lewis carries a 27-2 edge in the 95 fight

Where as the 93 fight, Lewis only edges Bowe 16-14

[ChrisPontius]

Conditioned thus: Eddie Futch in Bowe's corner and Bowe comes in healthy at around 235. Bowe makes Lewis look amateurish on the way to a big win with a couple of scares because of his willingness to jam.

Bowe was a perfect heavyweight specimen -big, strong, fast, with timing and rythym, and the single best skillset I have ever seen on a man over 6'4.

So there is one vote for Bowe. Mine. But Bowe bests Lewis on the most important factor -skill. He was also faster than Lewis. He had a far better chin than Lewis. And I'd rather Futch in my corner over anyone, anytime.

Best for best? Bowe. I have no doubt about it at all.

Better skillset?

Bowe had a complete lack of a straight right hand. Even journeymen had a 50% connect rate on him, what kind of skillset is that?

Bowe had great talents for someone his size but he also lacked a lot of things. It would have been interesting to see what would've happened if he fought better opposition than only Holyfield and Golota.

[Stonehands89]

Better skillset?

Bowe had a complete lack of a straight right hand. Even journeymen had a 50% connect rate on him, what kind of skillset is that?

Bowe had great talents for someone his size but he also lacked a lot of things. It would have been interesting to see what would've happened if he fought better opposition than only Holyfield and Golota.

... Bowe's straight right wasn't so bad -and his overhand was serious. And when was the last time you saw a man that size throw such versatile combinations? When was the last time you saw a man that size fight inside like that? Bowe was far and away a more skillful boxer than Lewis -especially the later version. Now, I'll grant you this, he seemed to reach his true potential for about an hour -when he beat a prime Holyfield for the title. But that was an extraordinary display of offensive skill at every range, defense aptitude, speed, power, strategy, and will. Lewis always looked comparatively stiff to me.

Bowe's problem was sloth and because of that he was wasted talent. He was like a higher functioning Buster Douglas. But an inspired Bowe with Futch behind him was the most formidable giant I ever saw.

[robert ungurean]

I always felt Bowe to be more versitile & alot tougher.
I take Bowe.

[apollack]

The mega fight that should have happened but never did. Have to say that it was the worst move of the 90s and signified the impending downfall and chaos of the heavyweight division. Really was Bowe's fault more than anything, so I have to think that Lewis was really that much of a risk that they wanted to avoid him like the plague. I think it would have been a great fight because both were very big, Bowe was much busier and hit hard with both hands, and went to the body, but Lewis with his outside sniper attack style would have landed that occasional big right. Bowe was a much better pro than amateur, and even in their amateur fight I thought Bowe was landing a lot of body shots and even slightly hurt Lewis, but that fight also showed that if Lennox landed his zinging right and hook, he could reallly hurt Bowe. Flip side though is that Bowe was ready, willing and able to continue at the time it was stopped, as he always was in the pros too. So, could have been a great fight, but will always be my #1 fight that didn't happen in the 90s.

[DamonD]

Not surprised at the voting

Lewis carries a 27-2 edge in the 95 fight

Where as the 93 fight, Lewis only edges Bowe 16-14
I think those are pretty reasonable poll outcomes so far, yeah...since I had '93 as a toss-up and '95 as one-sided.

Classic Forum coming through strong again :D

[WelshDevilRob]

Lennox Lewis all the way.

[godking]

Conditioned thus: Eddie Futch in Bowe's corner and Bowe comes in healthy at around 235. Bowe makes Lewis look amateurish on the way to a big win with a couple of scares because of his willingness to jam.

Bowe was a perfect heavyweight specimen -big, strong, fast, with timing and rythym, and the single best skillset I have ever seen on a man over 6'4.

So there is one vote for Bowe. Mine. But Bowe bests Lewis on the most important factor -skill. He was also faster than Lewis. He had a far better chin than Lewis. And I'd rather Futch in my corner over anyone, anytime.

Best for best? Bowe. I have no doubt about it at all.WHAT SUPERIOR SKILLS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

Bowe was a better infighter then Lewis thats it.

He had horrible defense a slightly above average jab and could'nt dodge a jab to save his life

[streetsaresafer]

bump

[Stonehands89]

WHAT SUPERIOR SKILLS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

Bowe was a better infighter then Lewis thats it.

He had horrible defense a slightly above average jab and could'nt dodge a jab to save his life

Please. I see Bowe-Golota I & II completes your collection.

[Stonehands89]

Jeeez. A single left hook by Holyfield had Bowe looking up at the lights. :yep

... and he got up and Ko'd Holyfield. I don't remember Lewis recovering from the blasts of two guys that no one will remember in 20 years.

[Stonehands89]

I think those are pretty reasonable poll outcomes so far, yeah...since I had '93 as a toss-up and '95 as one-sided.

Classic Forum coming through strong again :D

Well, I dissent. While it's a truism that Lewis must be ranked far ahead of Bowe in terms of greatness, ESB Classic's bias for Lewis is silly at times. Bowe's skills were far and away more advanced than Lewis's. Bowe could look like Ray Leonard in there -Lewis looked liked Frankenstein half the time.

[godking]

Please. I see Bowe-Golota I & II completes your collection.owe had HORRIBLE defense and was outjabbed by anyone who threw a jab at him even in holyfield 1 his ''masterpiece'' Every time Holy threw a jab he hit him. had Holyfield followed the fight plan instead of brawling with him he would probably have decisioned him.

The only thing exceptional Bowe had at any point in his carreer where his infighting skills.

''exceptional'' big men dont get 50 % connection rates against them by Journeymen .

There is a reason thate Bowe ducked most every puncher in a puncher heavy era.

The only big man with skill he took on raped him twice only to lose by DQ.

[bigWILLIAMJ]

AFTER THE STRUGGLES BOWE HAD VS GOLOTA-YES I KNOW THAT WAS 1996! LEWIS WINS VERY EASILY BY A MID TO 8TH ROUND KO.LEWIS IS RIGHT UP THERE IN THE TOP 10 BEST HEAVIES OF ALL TIME. ITS TIME U GUYS IN THE U.S GAVE HIM HIS DUE RESPECT!:nono

[redrooster]

I'd go along with the Lewis crowd except Lewis gets laid out too easily.
Bowe's never been stopped.

[godking]

AFTER THE STRUGGLES BOWE HAD VS GOLOTA-YES I KNOW THAT WAS 1996! LEWIS WINS VERY EASILY BY A MID TO 8TH ROUND KO.LEWIS IS RIGHT UP THERE IN THE TOP 10 BEST HEAVIES OF ALL TIME. ITS TIME U GUYS IN THE U.S GAVE HIM HIS DUE RESPECT!:nono Bowe is the only ''elite'' hw to get his ass kicked by Golota the other true elites of the era put Golota in his proper place.

[mr. magoo]

. It would have been interesting to see what would've happened if he fought better opposition than only Holyfield and Golota.


Bowe actually fought better opposition than people give him credit for. He defeated many of the division's young prospects such as Gonzalez, Donald, Hide, and Seldon. He also beat top rated pierre Coetzer, as well as veteran, yet well trained versions of Tony Tubbs and Tyrell Biggs.

[godking]

Bowe actually fought better opposition than people give him credit for. He defeated many of the division's young prospects such as Gonzalez, Donald, Hide, and Seldon. He also beat top rated pierre Coetzer, as well as veteran, yet well trained versions of Tony Tubbs and Tyrell Biggs.Third tier hws

And an old Tubbs in alot of minds was robbed.

The only second Tier HW he fought was Golota who raped him twice and the only first tier HW he fought was Holy in which he narrowly won the Trilogy.

Lewis
Tyson
Morrison
Mercer
90s Holmes
90s Foreman
Moorer
Ruddock
90s Bruno
Briggs
Tua
Ibeabuchi
Golota
Holyfield

Those where the first and second tier fighters of the 90s

Bowe only fought two of them.

[AnthonyJ74]

Any version of Lewis beats Bowe.

Bowe was outjabbed by anyone who threw a jab at him and ducked every pucher of the era in an era with alot of punchers.

Bowe also had NO defense and could be hit at will this bodes bad against a puncher like Lewis .

Herbie Hide was apparently a pretty big puncher, who actually stunned Bowe a few times, but Bowe annihilated him. Having said that, I always thought that Bowe was a much more polished fighter than was Lewis early in their careers. If they had fought around 1992, 1993, I think Bowe would have outclassed him. However, as Lewis improved, Bowe regressed. In 1995 or anytime thereafter, Lewis would outclass Bowe.

[Stonehands89]

owe had HORRIBLE defense and was outjabbed by anyone who threw a jab at him even in holyfield 1 his ''masterpiece'' Every time Holy threw a jab he hit him. had Holyfield followed the fight plan instead of brawling with him he would probably have decisioned him.

The only thing exceptional Bowe had at any point in his carreer where his infighting skills.

''exceptional'' big men dont get 50 % connection rates against them by Journeymen .

There is a reason thate Bowe ducked most every puncher in a puncher heavy era.

The only big man with skill he took on raped him twice only to lose by DQ.

First of all, "infighting skills" are strong indicators of technical aptitude. Bowe had much more than that.

Second of all, your excessive use of hyperbole make any debate with you difficult.

Third of all, you are simply wrong.

[NickHudson]

:lol:

Please. I see Bowe-Golota I & II completes your collection.

[achillesthegreat]

Once Lewis has Steward he became an animal. There were some fights where he was still learning i.e. Mercer but ultimately Lewis lost VERY few rounds. With Steward he became arguably the most complete heavyweight ever and lost very few rounds. He wasn't invincible but he could be as dominant as ANY heavyweight - Louis, Ali, you name him.

[Nemesis]

First of all, "infighting skills" are strong indicators of technical aptitude. Bowe had much more than that.

Second of all, your excessive use of hyperbole make any debate with you difficult.

Third of all, you are simply wrong.

What was your opinion of the olymipic final bout?

Lewis did have Bowe on queer street

[godking]

First of all, "infighting skills" are strong indicators of technical aptitude. Bowe had much more than that.

Second of all, your excessive use of hyperbole make any debate with you difficult.

Third of all, you are simply wrong.Infighting skills are ONE indicator of technical aptitude .Lewis surpassed him in all the other areas like jab power speed movement ect.

And how can you you claim that a guy as easy to hit as Bowe was was the most ''technically gifted'' giant.

Bowe was a great infighter for a big man thats it .

I would like to see try to adress Bowes horrible defense and inability to handle a jab.

[ChrisPontius]

I just rewatched Bowe-Holyfield I and sorry but i just don't see that Sugar Ray Leonard stuff you're talking about.

Yes, he has great infighting skills, but on the outside he is totally helpless. He can't get out of the way of Holyfields jabs and right hand leads, and barely lands his own jab; Holyfield steps out of the way most of the time. For some brawling reason, from midway round 2 on Holyfield was content just getting on the inside and staying there which played perfect in Bowe's hands because that's where he can control Holyfield. Every time Holyfield goes back to jabbing from a distance, Bowe isn't offering much in return and by round 5 he's just leaning in to get Holyfield on the inside.

And even in this peak fight, Holyfield had a 55% connect percentage and just didn't seem to be able to miss him. Especially straight punches from the outside landed almost effortless. There are two key factors in this fight:

-Holyfield fights a stupid fight by not staying on the outside by brawling on the inside.
-Bowe's defense is leaky and he catches a big number of shots, but the real difference is that he can take 3 punches from Holyfield to land 1 or 2 of his own half and still come fresher out of the exchange because of the weight or power difference. Holyfield simply couldn't hurt Bowe, he hit him plenty but ended up tired himself while Bowe came up stronger.


Lewis would be staying on the outside, outjabbing him and landing that hard straight right hand which Bowe could hardly defend against and he won't have to fear Bowe's straight right hand because he barely had one. I also think Lewis is on par with Bowe in infighting, just that he didn't lean forward and try to make it an infight like Bowe all the time. Lewis took Mavrovic, Tyson, Holyfield, Klitschko and Grant apart with right and left uppercuts.

[godking]

I just rewatched Bowe-Holyfield I and sorry but i just don't see that Sugar Ray Leonard stuff you're talking about.

Yes, he has great infighting skills, but on the outside he is totally helpless. He can't get out of the way of Holyfields jabs and right hand leads, and barely lands his own jab; Holyfield steps out of the way most of the time. For some brawling reason, from midway round 2 on Holyfield was content just getting on the inside and staying there which played perfect in Bowe's hands because that's where he can control Holyfield. Every time Holyfield goes back to jabbing from a distance, Bowe isn't offering much in return and by round 5 he's just leaning in to get Holyfield on the inside.

And even in this peak fight, Holyfield had a 55% connect percentage and just didn't seem to be able to miss him. Especially straight punches from the outside landed almost effortless. There are two key factors in this fight:

-Holyfield fights a stupid fight by not staying on the outside by brawling on the inside.
-Bowe's defense is leaky and he catches a big number of shots, but the real difference is that he can take 3 punches from Holyfield to land 1 or 2 of his own half and still come fresher out of the exchange because of the weight or power difference. Holyfield simply couldn't hurt Bowe, he hit him plenty but ended up tired himself while Bowe came up stronger.


Lewis would be staying on the outside, outjabbing him and landing that hard straight right hand which Bowe could hardly defend against and he won't have to fear Bowe's straight right hand because he barely had one. I also think Lewis is on par with Bowe in infighting, just that he didn't lean forward and try to make it an infight like Bowe all the time. Lewis took Mavrovic, Tyson, Holyfield, Klitschko and Grant apart with right and left uppercuts.Exactly

Like you i fail to see the god who walked like a man that Bowe was in in the first Holyfield fight.

Had Holyfield stuck with the plan to box on the outside he would have won a decision.

Bowe a man with practically no defense and who could'nt handle ajab against a puncher with a ramrod jab like Lewis.

Bowe would last for 8 rounds and thats only because of his chin.

Lewis would litterally hit him at will and unlike in the Holyfield fights Bowe cant just shake off Lewis punches.

[DamonD]

In all 3 Holyfield-Bowe fights, it's quite notable (and indeed quite shocking) that almost all the rounds Holyfield win are when he's staying on the outside and beating Bowe in a jabbing contest.

The second fight is just the one where Holyfield sticks consistantly to that rather than being tempted into a brawl (where I feel Steward's presence in his corner helped to keep that message strong).

How can this be? The Bowe of the first Holyfield always, especially by certain contrary US journos (usually to attack Lewis, Holyfield et al), gets held up as a pure fighter that destroys on the inside yet dances and jabs on the outside.

Considering that Bowe of '92 still shows exactly the same flaws of plodding, straight-ahead movement rather than intelligent cutting off of the ring, lack of a straight right, giving up his jab in favour of big punches, having an even battle of the jabs with a guy with a much shorter range than himself, and generally looking to use his size and power to overcome an opponent whilst leaving himself wide open for counter-punches, I would comfortably pick a fair number of fighters in history to knock out Bowe '92 in pretty short order.

Holyfield himself was close to knocking Bowe out in all 3 of their fights.

[Doppleganger]

To sum up; Bowe can't get out of the way of right hands and Lewis has one of the best overhand rights in the history of the sport. Offhand I can't think of another match-up between 2 skilled heavyweights where the main weakness of one fighter is the main strength of another.

[Stonehands89]

What was your opinion of the olymipic final bout?

Lewis did have Bowe on queer street

Bowe was a Futch-less amateur. That fight is not as relevant as you may be implying. The psychological effect of it may have come into play however and may be part of the reason behind why the fight never happened. The other was that Rock Newman was a jerk.

[Stonehands89]

"Sigh." All this Bowe-bashing requires me to dig through my tapes to '92. That I will do tonight and will then engage one and all Lewis apologists from across the pond in a debate -albeit domani.

[Muchmoore]

I am a big time Bowe fan, and I think Bowe gives Lewis a lot of problems. He has a very good jab and reach that would trouble Lewis and keep him from staying on the outside just throwing the jab and racking up easy points. Bowe was also incredibly durable and it would take a lot of big punches for him to lose by stoppage. Bowe was also an amazingly effective inside fighter for a big guy, better than Lewis.

That being said, Lewis has the clearly better punching power, and is bigger and stronger. He also has better defense. Bowe had trouble with big fighters with good jabs (Golota even though he was shot, and Tony Tubbs) and Lewis had the perfect style to beat Bowe. Bowe wasn't a big puncher and Lewis wouldn't be clowning around like against McCall and Rahman and get caught. He would view Bowe as a tough and legitimate oppontant.

I think that while Bowe gives Lewis a lot of trouble and picks up rounds, he loses by UD 7-5. This is the peak Bowe that beat Holyfield in their first fight.

[godking]

"Sigh." All this Bowe-bashing requires me to dig through my tapes to '92. That I will do tonight and will then engage one and all Lewis apologists from across the pond in a debate -albeit domani.Good for you

Then you can see Bowes horrible defense and you can see Bowe being outjabbed by everyone who threw a jab at him.

[Stonehands89]

Good for you

Then you can see Bowes horrible defense and you can see Bowe being outjabbed by everyone who threw a jab at him.

With a name like "godking" it is no wonder that you have a penchant for extravagant exaggeration.

Your posts suggest that you are quite young and once you become a fan, you become radicalized. That is unfortunate; and you will pay for that out here where intelligent argument is king. Try to keep an open mind, and perhaps you will learn a thing or too on ESB.

[Stonehands89]

Okay.... I've reviewed a few tapes.

There is some revisionist history here concerning Bowe's talent and skills. I suspect that it is at least partly due to his woefully inadequate reign as champion, and his bad showing against Golota. Bowe was also lazy. The biggest disgrace of the 1990s in my book is that Bowe and Lewis did not fight.

Muchmoore is a respectable poster, but I take issue with his idea that Bowe wasn't a big puncher. Bowe was an excellent puncher, and while the PSI wasn't where Lewis's would be, the angles and delivery were superior.

Pontius is also a wise one out here, but his dismissal of Bowe's right would be laughed at by Seldon and Gonzalez, both of whom folded like chairs after Bowe landed a right.

"Godking" is simply wrong when he so casually dismisses Bowe. Bowe was excellent at parrying jabs and his defense was better than average. What is overlooked here is that Futch was a big believer in evasion-based offense. Bowe's style was based on the theory of positioning -he was always looking to be where he should be to punch. This is the Blackburn-Louis background of Futch. It could mean that at times Bowe would eat a jab or take a shot as a cost to get into position. Lewis was either doing offense -or- defense. He was not anywhere near as smooth or as skilled as Bowe was. This Bostonian celebrates Lewis as much as the English, but let's not ignore what is plain.

Lewis was not combining offense and defense as much as Bowe was and he was not preoccupied with positioning. He relied on his reach. Bowe's training also explains his preference for the inside -he wanted to maximize effective punching and any amateur knows that the short shots are the best shots. The ones with leverage.

[godking]

Okay.... I've reviewed a few tapes.

There is some revisionist history here concerning Bowe's talent and skills. I suspect that it is at least partly due to his woefully inadequate reign as champion, and his bad showing against Golota. Bowe was also lazy. The biggest disgrace of the 1990s in my book is that Bowe and Lewis did not fight.

Muchmoore is a respectable poster, but I take issue with his idea that Bowe wasn't a big puncher. Bowe was an excellent puncher, and while the PSI wasn't where Lewis's would be, the angles and delivery were superior.

Pontius is also a wise one out here, but his dismissal of Bowe's right would be laughed at by Seldon and Gonzalez, both of whom folded like chairs after Bowe landed a right.

"Godking" is simply wrong when he so casually dismisses Bowe. Bowe was excellent at parrying jabs and his defense was better than average. What is overlooked here is that Futch was a big believer in evasion-based offense. Bowe's style was based on the theory of positioning -he was always looking to be where he should be to punch. This is the Blackburn-Louis background of Futch. It could mean that at times Bowe would eat a jab or take a shot as a cost to get into position. Lewis was either doing offense -or- defense. He was not anywhere near as smooth or as skilled as Bowe was. This Bostonian celebrates Lewis as much as the English, but let's not ignore what is plain.

Lewis was not combining offense and defense as much as Bowe was and he was not preoccupied with positioning. He relied on his reach. Bowe's training also explains his preference for the inside -he wanted to maximize effective punching and any amateur knows that the short shots are the best shots. The ones with leverage.:roll: :roll:

Bowe above average defense ?

Guys with above average defense dont get 50 % connect rates against them from Journeymen.

1 Bowe was EASY to hit he did'nt occasionally eat a punch he ate a lot of punches most guys who fought him had a 50 % connect range against him luckily for Bowe he had a good chin which allowd him to take pucnhes he should'nt have taken..

2 Bowe could be and was outjabbed by everyone who jabbed with him

(that includes his ''masterpiece'' in the first Holyfield fight when Holyfield a man with a shorter range stayed on the outside and boxed he was outjabbing Bowe easily)

3 Bowe had at best a decent right hand when he used it

4 What positioning are you talking about Bowe for the most part was a plodding HW.

Bowe best atrtibutes where his infighting skills and chin in other attributes speed jab defense ect Lewis tops him

[Stonehands89]

:roll: :roll:

Bowe above average defense ?

Guys with above average defense dont get 50 % connect rates against them from Journeymen.

1 Bowe was EASY to hit he did'nt occasionally eat a punch he ate a lot of punches most guys who fought him had a 50 % connect range against him luckily for Bowe he had a good chin which allowd him to take pucnhes he should'nt have taken..

2 Bowe could be and was outjabbed by everyone who jabbed with him

(that includes his ''masterpiece'' in the first Holyfield fight when Holyfield a man with a shorter range stayed on the outside and boxed he was outjabbing Bowe easily)

3 Bowe had at best a decent right hand when he used it

4 What positioning are you talking about Bowe for the most part was a plodding HW.

Bowe best atrtibutes where his infighting skills and chin in other attributes speed jab defense ect Lewis tops him
This is a poor retort.

I offer you lucid analysis (albeit subjective) and historical context (albeit theoretical) which you are free to disagree with. You respond with goofy emoticons and simple contrariness with no real argument whatsoever. It's kind of akin to schoolyard nonsense:

"I called it"
"No! I called it!"
"No sah! I did first!"

You throw in some weird statitistic but don't reference it at all. And then proclaim that Bowe was a "plodder". I suspect that you do not understand what an angle or a pivot is.

[Sonny's jab]

I think Lennox Lewis was possibly at his best in 1995 when he fought Tommy Morrison.

Riddick Bowe had deteriorated a bit by then.
I'm kind of on both sides of the debate about how good Bowe actually was at his best. I agree that Holyfield's foolish tactics accounted for a lot of Bowe's success in their first fight, but I cannot ignore Bowe's skills and power.
He's not as bad defensively or on the outside as some of you are suggesting. Or rather it's worth pointing out that in COMPARISON TO LEWIS his flaws are not worth exposing so zealousless. Lewis himself looked amateurish and scrappy, untidy and off-balance, and not exactly hard to hit in many of his fights in that era. Watch Lewis against Tyrell Biggs, Frank Bruno, and even Lionel Butler (where he has Steward) and you can have a field day picking flaws.

Having said all that, the Lewis who fought Morrison in 1995 showed his best side and showed far more polish and refinement than anything we'd seen from him before and rarely saw after.
Of course, Bowe poses problems and obstacles that Morrison never did, not least because his height and reach are on a par with Lewis and not disadvantaged as Morrison's, but I still think that Lewis would be too much for Bowe.

Bowe probably deserved the number 1 ranking in 1995, but I think Lewis would have beaten him.

[Muchmoore]

[quote=Stonehands89]

Muchmoore is a respectable poster, but I take issue with his idea that Bowe wasn't a big puncher. Bowe was an excellent puncher, and while the PSI wasn't where Lewis's would be, the angles and delivery were superior.

quote]

Bowe was a good puncher but he wasn't a big one punch knockout guy like Lewis, Foreman, Tyson. He hit hard but not ATG quality.

[Stonehands89]

[quote=Stonehands89]

Muchmoore is a respectable poster, but I take issue with his idea that Bowe wasn't a big puncher. Bowe was an excellent puncher, and while the PSI wasn't where Lewis's would be, the angles and delivery were superior.

quote]

Bowe was a good puncher but he wasn't a big one punch knockout guy like Lewis, Foreman, Tyson. He hit hard but not ATG quality.

Fair enough.

[ChrisPontius]

I always thought Bowe was more of an attrition puncher - but a very heavy handed one at that.

For instance, in his first fight with Holyfield, he brawls with Holyfield and although Holyfield in the beginning lands more, it was still Holyfield who was tired and seemed to be losing control at round 4 or 5, not Bowe. Maybe it was the weight difference that made Bowe able to take it and come back stronger.
The fact that Bowe has a very high punch output also attests him being more of a wearing-down fighter.

I also think that this is what hurt him in his fights with Golota; Golota freezes against big punches (Lewis, Tyson, Brewster) but did not have that problem with Bowe. Bowe was past his best but then again, he did come fresh off stopping Holyfield for the first time in his career, and he did land some good shots (power is the last thing to go, they say).

I will add that Bowe had a bit of bad luck in facing one of those fighters who had a habit of losing big fights but able to look absolutly great in one or two career performances. A Buster Douglas type of fighter if you will. A bad loss to have on your resume, but i think Golota's technical ability, speed, combinations and movement were nothing short of a great fighter the nights he fought Bowe.

I still think Bowe is rather vurnerable on the outside to getting hit by jabs and straight right hands, which is Lewis' bread and butter. The positioning tactics you are talking about might work against a shorter fighter who could barely hurt him, but i think it would be a monumental mistake against a huge puncher like Lewis. Cheers.

[Stonehands89]

I always thought Bowe was more of an attrition puncher - but a very heavy handed one at that.

For instance, in his first fight with Holyfield, he brawls with Holyfield and although Holyfield in the beginning lands more, it was still Holyfield who was tired and seemed to be losing control at round 4 or 5, not Bowe. Maybe it was the weight difference that made Bowe able to take it and come back stronger.
The fact that Bowe has a very high punch output also attests him being more of a wearing-down fighter.

I also think that this is what hurt him in his fights with Golota; Golota freezes against big punches (Lewis, Tyson, Brewster) but did not have that problem with Bowe. Bowe was past his best but then again, he did come fresh off stopping Holyfield for the first time in his career, and he did land some good shots (power is the last thing to go, they say).

I will add that Bowe had a bit of bad luck in facing one of those fighters who had a habit of losing big fights but able to look absolutly great in one or two career performances. A Buster Douglas type of fighter if you will. A bad loss to have on your resume, but i think Golota's technical ability, speed, combinations and movement were nothing short of a great fighter the nights he fought Bowe.

I still think Bowe is rather vurnerable on the outside to getting hit by jabs and straight right hands, which is Lewis' bread and butter. The positioning tactics you are talking about might work against a shorter fighter who could barely hurt him, but i think it would be a monumental mistake against a huge puncher like Lewis. Cheers.

Good stuff here.

I heartily agree that Golota caught lightening in a bottle -twice, against Bad-Luck Bowe. He looked superb both times. I remember my jaw hitting the floor when I saw that skill, speed, strength, etc. And I thought that the only thing good to come out of Poland was John Paul II.

He was a nut though. Against Lewis and Tyson, I think that the event got him before he even stepped through the ropes -hell, the police had to bring him to the casino to fight Lewis and he was about a 1/2 hour late getting there!

As to Lewis, well, he indeed is stronger and hit harder. But you and I both know how to deal with that: counter the bombs, get inside, and use angles. This was Bowe's forte and I think it is precisely how to deal with Lewis. This is particularly so because Lewis's legs were basic. His stance was too wide at times, and he was off balance at other times. He could step in and out but nothing special. Bowe had beautiful pivots after throwing shots or in the midst of throwing shots.

Bowe would have to be careful but even if he brawls he can dent Lewis's chin as long as he brawls smartly. I don't see Lewis stopping Bowe as likely as the reverse.

My qualifier is history: Newman avoided Lewis -with Bowe's complicity. That shows insecurity.

[godking]

This is a poor retort.

I offer you lucid analysis (albeit subjective) and historical context (albeit theoretical) which you are free to disagree with. You respond with goofy emoticons and simple contrariness with no real argument whatsoever. It's kind of akin to schoolyard nonsense:

"I called it"
"No! I called it!"
"No sah! I did first!"

You throw in some weird statitistic but don't reference it at all. And then proclaim that Bowe was a "plodder". I suspect that you do not understand what an angle or a pivot is.No you did'nt you claimed that Bowe had an above average defense which is clearly false you are the only one on this site who believes that .

You claim that Bowe only occasionally ate a punch yet most guys he fought had a 50 % connect rate against him.

And guys who use angles correctly dont get 50 % connect rates against them

You also talk about Bowe being ''smooth'' yet almost everyone who saw Bowe in the 90s remembers him as a plodding hw.

Sorry the super HW you think existed in the Holyfield one did not exist even at his best Bowe had alot of flaws.

[DamonD]

Since I guess this might be useful, here are a collection of punchstats for punch connection against Bowe.

vs Coetzer 38% (was around 45% until Coetzer's eye swelled shut after the 3rd)
vs Holyfield I 51%
vs Holyfield II 49%
vs Donald 45%
vs Hide 53%
vs Gonzalez 32%
vs Holyfield III 60%
vs Golota I 55%
vs Golota II 64%


I'm afraid I don't have any stats for his earlier fights against guys like Biggs or Tubbs or so on. Compubox didn't cover those, I can attempt an unofficial count myself if needed though.

[ChrisPontius]

Interesting stats Damond. Those are indeed damn high. I suspect the fridge was not the only reason Bowe faded so fast. 64% in Golota II is sick. That was a butchery that should've been stopped in the 5th round. Great fights though.

[JohnThomas1]

Wit this one i don't even dig deep technically, i firmly believe Lewis had the wood mentally on Bowe anytime after the Olympics.

[DamonD]

I wouldn't mind doing an unofficial punch count for Bowe vs Tubbs one of these days...I scored the fight 5-5, a draw last time I saw it so I'd be interested in rewatching anyway.

[Stonehands89]

No you did'nt you claimed that Bowe had an above average defense which is clearly false you are the only one on this site who believes that .

You claim that Bowe only occasionally ate a punch yet most guys he fought had a 50 % connect rate against him.

And guys who use angles correctly dont get 50 % connect rates against them

You also talk about Bowe being ''smooth'' yet almost everyone who saw Bowe in the 90s remembers him as a plodding hw.

Sorry the super HW you think existed in the Holyfield one did not exist even at his best Bowe had alot of flaws.

Bowe had flaws like any fighter! You react as if I'm a fan of his -I'm not. You fail to understand that his style was offensively-based. He took risks and took shots but had a good chin and did in fact show versatile and intelligent defense -weaving, parrying, slipping, and blocking. I don't overestimate Bowe, but you underestimate him to silly degrees.

The connect percentage on Bowe can also be attributed to his style (Damon's stats do not say that he stopped Hide, Gonzalez, Coetzer, outwarred the quintessential warrior in Holyfield, and stopped him in the rubber) and his sloth (for Golota I he was over 250 and came in looking like a deflated bag for Golota II).

Stats, any and all of them, should be approached carefully. The numbers may not lie, but they don't tell the whole story.

Some saw Louis as "plodding" too -and they fail to understand the subtleties of sidesteps and pivots, like you. Dancing isn't efficient. And for offensive-minded fighters, the objective is clear. Foreman was a plodder and if you see no differences stylistically between Frankenstein Foreman and Big Daddy, then I don't know what to tell you son (make an appointment with an optometrist).

[DamonD]

Stats, any and all of them, should be approached carefully. The numbers may not lie, but they don't tell the whole story.
That's a little disingenuous, don't you think?
If the numbers had been consistantly low for Bowe, I think you would've accepted them a lot easier. If we're willing to give Bowe points for his attacking aggresion, then we also need to property dock them for leaving himself open to counter-attack due to that as well.

Don't get me wrong, on his day Bowe was a quality HW. I simply do not think that peak Bowe beats a peak Lewis (or a peak Holyfield or Tyson as a matter of fact).

[Mendoza]

Same question as before but now if the fight happened in 1995.

While I liked Bowe to take the fight in 93, I like Lewis in 95.

Lewis was now hitting his prime, he had Steward, and his jab and defense had improved enough that I think he would outpoint Bowe in 95.

Prediction - Lewis UD - 116-112, 116-112, 115-113

Again I am curious to see how the votes go in this and how they go in 93. I suspect Lewis will take both polls, but that the 93 vote will be closer. We'll see.
[Only registered and activated users can see links] Top ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

This is a tough one. Anytime you match two very big and strong fighters in the ring who could both hurt each other, anything can happen. Regardless of who you’re rooting for, the bottom line is we both know either man could TKO/KO the other.

I believe this match would come down to confidence, preparation, and skill. The thing is Bowe was probably better than Lewis in the early 1990’s as a pro, and Lewis was clearly better then Bowe in the later half of the 1990’s. Lewis did not become a complete fighter until after the McCall fight. He a bit shaky vs a very average ****** Fortune, but came into his own when he hired Emanuel Steward as his trainer after the McCall fight.

Lewis appeared to regain his confidence, and iron out the best style for him around the time he fought Tommy Morrison in October 1995. I believe that Lewis would TKO Bowe. Lewis hurt Bowe rather easily in the Olympics. I think he execute a game plan to land the right hand in 1995. If the date was 1992, 1993, or 1994, I’m picking Bowe. But the date given was 1995, so I’m with Lewis.

[Stonehands89]

That's a little disingenuous, don't you think?
If the numbers had been consistantly low for Bowe, I think you would've accepted them a lot easier. If we're willing to give Bowe points for his attacking aggresion, then we also need to property dock them for leaving himself open to counter-attack due to that as well.

Don't get me wrong, on his day Bowe was a quality HW. I simply do not think that peak Bowe beats a peak Lewis (or a peak Holyfield or Tyson as a matter of fact).

It wasn't disingenuous in the least. I'd stand by it regardless of whether it was a help or a hindrance. And your speculation about what I'd accept is wrong -I've never once given punch stats a second thought in formulating argument.

Bowe is not a 'defense-specialist', and the argument asserted here is not that he actually was, but that a cost of his style was that he would have to take shots. Being aggressive usually translates that way.

The real bias out here is clear to me. This is a 'Bowe vs. Lewis' thread where Bowe's defensive deficiencies are being overly emphasized when he was never stopped at all in his career -unlike a prime (or any other time) Lewis!

[ChrisPontius]

The real bias out here is clear to me. This is a 'Bowe vs. Lewis' thread where Bowe's defensive deficiencies are being overly emphasized when he was never stopped at all in his career -unlike a prime (or any other time) Lewis!

This has nothing to do with bias. Simply watching Bowe's fights and Lewis' fights shows that Bowe gets hit often. Very often, even by mediocre fighters. The punchstats attest to that.

And the fact that Bowe has never been stopped has something to do with the fact that he only faced one puncher in his entire career (Hide) whereas Lewis faced Mason, Tua, Klitschko, Bruno, Grant, Tyson (old but powerful still), Morrison, Klitschko, Ruddock, Tucker and Mercer.

[Doppleganger]

Moreover, Holyfield had Bowe in desperate trouble with a single left hook. What will happen when Bowe, open to right hands, ships a few overhand rights from Lewis?

The defensive deficiencies of Bowe are being overly emphasized because they happen to be key to the outcome of his fight! I think we can all agree that Lewis will land his best punches on Bowe's chin. If Bowe can't take the overhand right of Lewis he won't win the fight. He's already demonstrated that the Lewis right was enough to floor him in the amateurs. If Bowe couldn't take the punch then why would he be able to take it a few years later? You can't put muscles on chins as they say.

[Stonehands89]

This has nothing to do with bias. Simply watching Bowe's fights and Lewis' fights shows that Bowe gets hit often. Very often, even by mediocre fighters. The punchstats attest to that.

And the fact that Bowe has never been stopped has something to do with the fact that he only faced one puncher in his entire career (Hide) whereas Lewis faced Mason, Tua, Klitschko, Bruno, Grant, Tyson (old but powerful still), Morrison, Klitschko, Ruddock, Tucker and Mercer.
Bowe gets hit often, but there are other reasons that you ignore and that give it context. Look at comparative punch stats of other fights and fighters who are aggressive inside the perimeter.

As to bias.... who, being biased, readily concedes their bias in the midst of an argument?

I have seen reason to suspect a pro-Lewis bias among an inordinate amount of posters on this site for years now. It is not merely in comparison to Bowe, it is the odd celebration of his great technical skill (I don't see it), his glorified legacy and rank (he beat a shot Tyson! a faded Holyfield!), his head-to-head chances, and the chin that so many pretend was solid. The worst of it is when some posters actually decry the McCall stoppage.

[Stonehands89]

Moreover, Holyfield had Bowe in desperate trouble with a single left hook. What will happen when Bowe, open to right hands, ships a few overhand rights from Lewis?

The defensive deficiencies of Bowe are being overly emphasized because they happen to be key to the outcome of his fight! I think we can all agree that Lewis will land his best punches on Bowe's chin. If Bowe can't take the overhand right of Lewis he won't win the fight. He's already demonstrated that the Lewis right was enough to floor him in the amateurs. If Bowe couldn't take the punch then why would he be able to take it a few years later? You can't put muscles on chins as they say.

Holyfield had a wicked left hook that would hurt anyone if it lands flush -like it did on Bowe. Bowe got up and won.

Bowe wasn't floored in the amateurs by Lewis. It was a typical crap stoppage. Different sports, different boxers. Bowe was 21 when Lewis "stopped" him in the amateurs and it should not be so counted on to formulate arguments so much.

You claim that Bowe must be able to take the overhand right of Lewis or he won't win the fight. That is a strange pre-fight analysis. You bring up the amateurs. You talk about muscles on chins as you relate Bowe's going down under a Lewis right. It's as if McCall and Rahman never crashed Lewis into delirium. Lewis was 29 when McCall got him -that's the prime age for boxers.

[Doppleganger]

Holyfield had a wicked left hook that would hurt anyone if it lands flush -like it did on Bowe. Bowe got up and won. He did get up but he was out on his feet for the rest of the round. If Holyfield hadn't faded so badly in the fight he could (and should) have stopped Bowe. If Holyfield can hurt Bowe with the left hook I feel confident that Lewis can do the same with the right hand.

Bowe wasn't floored in the amateurs by Lewis. It was a typical crap stoppage. Different sports, different boxers. Bowe was 21 when Lewis "stopped" him in the amateurs and it should not be so counted on to formulate arguments so much. Agreed regarding the different sports observation but the fact is Bowe couldn't get out of the way of Lewis's right hand even back then. Anyway, for the reasons you allude to I don't wanna dwell too much on the amateurs.

You claim that Bowe must be able to take the overhand right of Lewis or he won't win the fight. That is a strange pre-fight analysis. You bring up the amateurs. You talk about muscles on chins as you relate Bowe's going down under a Lewis right. It's as if McCall and Rahman never crashed Lewis into delirium. Lewis was 29 when McCall got him -that's the prime age for boxers. Not really, seeing as Bowe will eat a few of those right hands during the course of any fight. I'm sure that Bowe can hurt Lewis, especially with the uppercut on the inside but I think Lewis will land more on Bowe than Bowe will land on Lewis. I don't really think what happened in the first McCall and Rahman fights will happen as Lewis will be focused. As I've said before it's no use picking a poor version of Lewis when deciding what would happen in this fight as the poor version would not turn up. Lewis would not walk on to a counter right nor would he come in unacclimatised to altitude, although it's very unlikely the fight would take place where altitude acclimatisation would be neccessary.

[Stonehands89]

Who would be landing on who more often is part of the equation, but so isn't the ability to take the shot. You claim, as do the legion of Lewis fans and apologists out here that Lewis "wasn't focussed" when he faced McCall and Rahman. Your reasons for making that claim strike me as circular. Now, sometimes "he wasn't focussed" applies. Ex/ Tyson wasn't focussed for Douglas and was in poor shape. Liston barely trained for Clay. These assertions have evidence.

What makes you think that Lewis wasn't focussed? Lewis didn't strike me as someone who took HWs lightly. He didn't strike me as a champion who was lackadaisical (like Bowe -his greatest fault). Lewis, frankly, had a mountain of character (as well as intelligence). He is a most impressive champion. In fact, after McCall blasted him, he said "I just didn't see it" and couldn't believe what had happened. Lewis attributed it to the inherent risks of boxing and got quite philosophical about it -never once stating that he wasn't in shape.

He should have spoken to ESB first and got a whole litany of excuses at the ready.

[Doppleganger]

The argument for Lewis not being focused is less compelling for the McCall fight than it was the Rahman fight. Lewis though did take McCall lightly and tried to blast out McCall but he wasn't focused in the sense that for Lewis it was just another title defence. I make no excuse for Lewis losing those 2 fights. He lost them. That's the bottom line right there. What I do take issue with is that the rabid anti Lewis brigade (and I'm not suggesting you are one of them) assume that Lewis will leave his chin up in the air and/or not train properly for a fight with the elite of the Heavyweight division if he ever faced them.

In fact, I would suggest that Lewis is more likely to lose against a hard hitting contender like Cleveland Williams or Earnie Shavers than one of the top flight. The reason for this being that he is more likely to repeat the mistakes of the McCall/Rahman I fights against fighters that he either doesn't fear or holds in high regard. The fact that Lewis didn't slip up against the Holyfields, Ruddocks and Tysons etc seems to bear this point out.

[DamonD]

All I can say about the McCall fight is to point out that Lewis was at his heaviest weight to date, and that there was a fair amount of internal turmoil regarding Pepe Correa at that time. Basically, everyone in Lewis's camp wanting rid of the guy (the criticism having started since the Tucker fight), while Lewis felt he deserved a fair chance. Allegedly, Lewis even skipped a couple of training camps (according to Maloney) during some disputes.

I don't think he overlooked McCall more than Rahman, but I do think his camp was not as stable and that all seemed to affect him.

You know what...I really miss Eddie Futch. The man was absolute gold to Bowe, absolute gold. And seemed so hurt at Bowe's fuck-ups.

[JohnThomas1]

Good debates boys and i still believe Bowe knew when it cam to Lewis, and was never going to fight him. Look at some of these zombies that came in stiff vs Tyson, beaten before they started. A harsh call on a fighter of this rank, but one i believe. I also remember Bowe being stopped, maybe not the pro's but......

[DamonD]

I can't say for certain about that, but Bowe certainly hit the deck several times as an amateur. I don't think there can be many guys to go their entire amateur and pro careers without touching down at least once.

Gonzalez allegedly knocked him down about 3 times during their amateur fight...it was meant to be a bit of a barn-burner, actually. Unfortunately for Gonzalez, Bowe improved while he didn't ;)

[godking]

He did get up but he was out on his feet for the rest of the round. If Holyfield hadn't faded so badly in the fight he could (and should) have stopped Bowe. If Holyfield can hurt Bowe with the left hook I feel confident that Lewis can do the same with the right hand.

Agreed regarding the different sports observation but the fact is Bowe couldn't get out of the way of Lewis's right hand even back then. Anyway, for the reasons you allude to I don't wanna dwell too much on the amateurs.

Not really, seeing as Bowe will eat a few of those right hands during the course of any fight. I'm sure that Bowe can hurt Lewis, especially with the uppercut on the inside but I think Lewis will land more on Bowe than Bowe will land on Lewis. I don't really think what happened in the first McCall and Rahman fights will happen as Lewis will be focused. As I've said before it's no use picking a poor version of Lewis when deciding what would happen in this fight as the poor version would not turn up. Lewis would not walk on to a counter right nor would he come in unacclimatised to altitude, although it's very unlikely the fight would take place where altitude acclimatisation would be neccessary.Bowe will not eat a few right hands he will eat most all right hands from Lewis.

[Stonehands89]

The argument for Lewis not being focused is less compelling for the McCall fight than it was the Rahman fight. Lewis though did take McCall lightly and tried to blast out McCall but he wasn't focused in the sense that for Lewis it was just another title defence. I make no excuse for Lewis losing those 2 fights. He lost them. That's the bottom line right there. What I do take issue with is that the rabid anti Lewis brigade (and I'm not suggesting you are one of them) assume that Lewis will leave his chin up in the air and/or not train properly for a fight with the elite of the Heavyweight division if he ever faced them.

In fact, I would suggest that Lewis is more likely to lose against a hard hitting contender like Cleveland Williams or Earnie Shavers than one of the top flight. The reason for this being that he is more likely to repeat the mistakes of the McCall/Rahman I fights against fighters that he either doesn't fear or holds in high regard. The fact that Lewis didn't slip up against the Holyfields, Ruddocks and Tysons etc seems to bear this point out.

Well said. And you are reasonable enough to see that I am not of the ilk who call Lewis a bum and all that nonsense.

I see your argument and it is a good one, however, I see Lewis as a fair strategist with fair skills. His effectiveness is rooted in his size, strength, and especially his power. The wins against Tyson and Holyfield are not so convincing to me because one was shot and the other was very faded. He made far more mistakes than Bowe in the ring and I do not think that he should be favored over guys like Liston, Ali, Foreman, or Louis.

However, he is still easily a top ten HW champ, and top 5 or so head-to-head.

[Stonehands89]

All I can say about the McCall fight is to point out that Lewis was at his heaviest weight to date, and that there was a fair amount of internal turmoil regarding Pepe Correa at that time. Basically, everyone in Lewis's camp wanting rid of the guy (the criticism having started since the Tucker fight), while Lewis felt he deserved a fair chance. Allegedly, Lewis even skipped a couple of training camps (according to Maloney) during some disputes.

I don't think he overlooked McCall more than Rahman, but I do think his camp was not as stable and that all seemed to affect him.

You know what...I really miss Eddie Futch. The man was absolute gold to Bowe, absolute gold. And seemed so hurt at Bowe's fuck-ups.

Your points about the Lewis camp before McCall are fair ones, but the man strikes me as one who would focus like a Spartan at Thermophylae regardless of what was happening around him. Here we are debating Lewis and Bowe and you have me arguing against Lewis, but have spawned my recognition of another Lewis superlative: I would argue that his mental strength and confidence rivals that of Ali himself. Bowe's is comparable to Don Cockell at best.

[Stonehands89]

... and Eddie Futch is missed in this corner in a big way. I truly believe that he was the architect and the reason behind Holyfield's defeat by Bowe during the former's prime, that he was instrumental in Ali's first 2 defeats, and that he was moving inexorably towards defeating Jones as well -had he a live body to implement his strategy. Griffin was not talented enough and McCallum was pushing 40 -but there was Futch looking threw the ropes in the corner, analyzing, watching, planning through those big glasses.

Futch lives through here, though, doesn't he. We are in the know about how great he was.

[Stonehands89]

Bowe will not eat a few right hands he will eat most all right hands from Lewis.

I am in awe of your analytical prowess, (false)god(toppled)king.

[JohnThomas1]

... and Eddie Futch is missed in this corner in a big way. I truly believe that he was the architect and the reason behind Holyfield's defeat by Bowe during the former's prime, that he was instrumental in Ali's first 2 defeats, and that he was moving inexorably towards defeating Jones as well -had he a live body to implement his strategy. Griffin was not talented enough and McCallum was pushing 40 -but there was Futch looking threw the ropes in the corner, analyzing, watching, planning through those big glasses.

Futch lives through here, though, doesn't he. We are in the know about how great he was.

Greatest tactician ever IMO.

[Stonehands89]

.. and to be honest, JT, he is why I am hesitant to be in any corner opposite him. Bowe was able to implement his wisdom and strategy -he was neither old nor short nor lacking talent. He was lazy and inconsistent, and that was what forced Futch to turn his back on him.

I think that Futch would have picked Lewis apart and found every hole for Bowe to capitalize on.

[JohnThomas1]

.. and to be honest, JT, he is why I am hesitant to be in any corner opposite him. Bowe was able to implement his wisdom and strategy -he was neither old nor short nor lacking talent. He was lazy and inconsistent, and that was what forced Futch to turn his back on him.

I think that Futch would have picked Lewis apart and found every hole for Bowe to capitalize on.

Without going into it i still don't think Bowe had the mental capacity to beat Lewis, TBH i don't think he would have taken him on at all tho i know you blame other corners.

I was in awe of Futch's strategy for Spinks vs Qawi, an absolute masterpiece. Tho he simply didn't have the capacity to win for numerous reasons i still would have liked to have seen Arguello with Futch still there for the Pryor rematch. Alexis couldn't win but i was keen to see how Futch was going to approach things. As it was Alexis, absolutely out of character pointed the finger at Futch and started making excuses for the loss, and Eddie being the fine upstanding gentleman he was refused to take on Alexis for the rematch after he had realised the terrible error of his ways. Griffin did away with him and got KTFO in the blink of an eye, which i find totally hilarious in hindsight. I'm a bit of a meanie tho

:lol:

[Ted Spoon]

Eddie Futch or not, what we are dealing with here is a huge problem in Bowes mentality towards Lewis. He surrendered the title because he could never picture himself again in the ring with Lewis.

Bowe was scarred for life in 1988. Had he of somehow carried his jelly legs into the ring with Lewis in the mid 90’s he would have been jumped on and stopped in a big way. Period.

[Stonehands89]

Without going into it i still don't think Bowe had the mental capacity to beat Lewis, TBH i don't think he would have taken him on at all tho i know you blame other corners.

I was in awe of Futch's strategy for Spinks vs Qawi, an absolute masterpiece. Tho he simply didn't have the capacity to win for numerous reasons i still would have liked to have seen Arguello with Futch still there for the Pryor rematch. Alexis couldn't win but i was keen to see how Futch was going to approach things. As it was Alexis, absolutely out of character pointed the finger at Futch and started making excuses for the loss, and Eddie being the fine upstanding gentleman he was refused to take on Alexis for the rematch after he had realised the terrible error of his ways. Griffin did away with him and got KTFO in the blink of an eye, which i find totally hilarious in hindsight. I'm a bit of a meanie tho

:lol:

... that is the million dollar question: Bowe's mental place regarding Lewis. I am actually more willing to accept that he may have been defeated already in his own head. This debate with my two friends out here is really more theoretical than usual for me because I am controlling for that speculation. I think that when all is said and done, Bowe's skills exceeded Lewis's, even if his strength and power did not. I go with skills as the primary factor in head to heads. The Futch factor convinces me further.

Those who disagree with rationality find an embrace here!

[Stonehands89]

Eddie Futch or not, what we are dealing with here is a huge problem in Bowes mentality towards Lewis. He surrendered the title because he could never picture himself again in the ring with Lewis.

Bowe was scarred for life in 1988. Had he of somehow carried his jelly legs into the ring with Lewis in the mid 90’s he would have been jumped on and stopped in a big way. Period.

Okay, Spoon. Control for that speculation as I have and proceed with an open mind. Assuming fear and trembling while so far from the time, the camp, and even farther from the fighter's head is worth little.

[JohnThomas1]

... that is the million dollar question: Bowe's mental place regarding Lewis. I am actually more willing to accept that he may have been defeated already in his own head. This debate with my two friends out here is really more theoretical than usual for me because I am controlling for that speculation. I think that when all is said and done, Bowe's skills exceeded Lewis's, even if his strength and power did not. I go with skills as the primary factor in head to heads. The Futch factor convinces me further.

Those who disagree with rationality find an embrace here!

Well i'd have to say rather than looking for an embrace i really do believe Bowe knew and believed Lewis was going to kick his ass. Regarding skill advantage, there are literally thousands examples of the more skilled, or supposed more skilled fighter losing. When push come to shove in this one i simply don't believe Bowe had the balls, tho Golota made them look like pretty big targets.

[Ted Spoon]

Okay, Spoon. Control for that speculation as I have and proceed with an open mind. Assuming fear and trembling while so far from the time, the camp, and even farther from the fighter's head is worth little. In a stylistic analysis, Lennox Lewis; the more imposing, assertive fighter, takes charge of the fight and stops Bowe with some boomers, but in reality, Riddick Bowe was genuinely fearful of Lennox. He went as far as giving up his right as champion to avoid fighting Lewis. There is nothing else to say.

[Stonehands89]

Well i'd have to say rather than looking for an embrace i really do believe Bowe knew and believed Lewis was going to kick his ass. Regarding skill advantage, there are literally thousands examples of the more skilled, or supposed more skilled fighter losing. When push come to shove in this one i simply don't believe Bowe had the balls, tho Golota made them look like pretty big targets.

Ha!

Well, that version of Golota was formidable -or appeared formidable. Someone brought that up earlier in the thread and I agree. Whether or not he could have been just bombed out was not known at that time but he was very good for those fights.

[Stonehands89]

In a stylistic analysis, Lennox Lewis; the more imposing, assertive fighter, takes charge of the fight and stops Bowe with some boomers, but in reality, Riddick Bowe was genuinely fearful of Lennox. He went as far as giving up his right as champion to avoid fighting Lewis. There is nothing else to say.

I find your casual assertion that Bowe would be stopped- when he never was stopped- to be problematic at many levels.

For an analyst who prides himself on lucid argument and facts, it is surprising to see that your post lacks both.

[JohnThomas1]

Ha!

Well, that version of Golota was formidable -or appeared formidable. Someone brought that up earlier in the thread and I agree. Whether or not he could have been just bombed out was not known at that time but he was very good for those fights.

You're in trouble now, none other than the great Ted Spoon is letting you know the error of your ways! Just when i thought we were not going to find certain closure on this one.

:D

[Stonehands89]

You're in trouble now, none other than the great Ted Spoon is letting you know the error of your ways! Just when i thought we were not going to find certain closure on this one.

:D

Who?

[JohnThomas1]

Who?
Jokes are fine but it should have been

Who?

:smoke

[Ted Spoon]

I find your casual assertion that Bowe would be stopped- when he never was stopped- to be problematic at many levels.

For an analyst who prides himself on lucid argument and facts, it is surprising to see that your post lacks both. The details can be so easily pieced together it was not necessary to dig up the tangibles. Riddick Bowe showed during his career that 1) He has problems with large men who can jab 2) He could be hurt by lesser punchers than Lewis and 3) He was not too keen on fighting Lennox Lewis. Lennox Lewis showed during his career that 1) His brand of boxing seemed to improve when he fought bigger men 2) He had a lethal punching power/a top jab and 3) A willingness to fight Bowe. Bowe did not sport the manoeuvrability or conventional defence to stop a mission driven' Lennox Lewis from sinking in his booming right after taking charge. Riddick had much heart, but Lewis' arsenal would have him for toast, and if they had a rematch it would be supper time. Lennox was the superior athlete; the stronger man, the more punishing puncher, and to top it off he has the supreme mental edge. Riddick Bowe's style of smooth boxing worked wonderful, when that is, he was in the driving seat. Lennox is the driver all the way here.

[Doppleganger]

I find your casual assertion that Bowe would be stopped- when he never was stopped- to be problematic at many levels.

For an analyst who prides himself on lucid argument and facts, it is surprising to see that your post lacks both. I pretty much agree with what he said though. Whatever spin is put on things Bowe ditched the WBC Heavyweight title rather than defend it against Lewis. That is pretty big. Regarding Bowe having never been stopped it might have happened several times had events gone other than historically. Moreover, just because Bowe was never stopped it does not follow that he could not have been ever stopped. He did not face the big punchers of his day, Hide and possibly Golota and Holyfield aside. He did not face a Tyson, Bruno, Tua et all. Lewis did, and none of those vaunted punchers even visibly dented him.

[JohnThomas1]

I pretty much agree with what he said though. Whatever spin is put on things Bowe ditched the WBC Heavyweight title rather than defend it against Lewis. That is pretty big. Regarding Bowe having never been stopped it might have happened several times had events gone other than historically. Moreover, just because Bowe was never stopped it does not follow that he could not have been ever stopped. He did not face the big punchers of his day, Hide and possibly Golota and Holyfield aside. He did not face a Tyson, Bruno, Tua et all. Lewis did, and none of those vaunted punchers even visibly dented him.

I would have liked to have seen Bowe vs Razor Rudduck at the right time, Nervous Times at Bowemont High i reckon.

[Doppleganger]

I would have liked to have seen Bowe vs Razor Rudduck at the right time, Nervous Times at Bowemont High i reckon.
:lol:

It would have been very interesting if the Ruddock 'smash' had landed. Nevermind Riddick 'Chicken' Bowe, he would have been Riddick 'Headless Chicken' Bowe.

[JohnThomas1]

The details can be so easily pieced together it was not necessary to dig up the tangibles. Riddick Bowe showed during his career that 1) He has problems with large men who can jab 2) He could be hurt by lesser punchers than Lewis and 3) He was not too keen on fighting Lennox Lewis. Lennox Lewis showed during his career that 1) His brand of boxing seemed to improve when he fought bigger men 2) He had a lethal punching power/a top jab and 3) A willingness to fight Bowe. Bowe did not sport the manoeuvrability or conventional defence to stop a mission driven' Lennox Lewis from sinking in his booming right after taking charge. Riddick had much heart, but Lewis' arsenal would have him for toast, and if they had a rematch it would be supper time. Lennox was the superior athlete; the stronger man, the more punishing puncher, and to top it off he has the supreme mental edge. Riddick Bowe's style of smooth boxing worked wonderful, when that is, he was in the driving seat. Lennox is the driver all the way here.

I'll make damn well sure i don't push you for elaboration if we're ever on opposite sides. What an authoritive post and certainly for me a concluder extraordinaire. Infallible.

[JohnThomas1]

:lol:

It would have been very interesting if the Ruddock 'smash' had landed. Nevermind Riddick 'Chicken' Bowe, he would have been Riddick 'Headless Chicken' Bowe.

:lol:

I highly doubt Bowe would have been able to smash him out of there fast like Lewis either. Ut oh.....

[Executioner]

Lewis would crush Bowe in my opinion.

[DamonD]

I do remember Bowe saying "Bet the house on Ruddock" when predicting Ruddock-Lewis...but that was probably more of an emotional response than an actual considered reply!

People forget Ruddock's reputation back in '92. Yes Tyson clearly had the best of him, but Iron Mike was out of the way and people were going "If Bert Cooper could knock down Holyfield..." The usual gossip.

[Zakman]

Bowe. If a lower level fighter like McCall could take Lewis out in '94, Big Daddy would be able to turn the trick, maybe earlier.

[Doppleganger]

Bowe. If a lower level fighter like McCall could take Lewis out in '94, Big Daddy would be able to turn the trick, maybe earlier.Solid analysis there Zakman. :roll:

[Pat_Lowe]

Is it just me or does Lewis' loss to Rahman because he was unacclimatised for the altitude sound bullshit. Now for some scientific analysis. It is estimated that the altitude at the Mexico City Olympic games caused approxmately a 10% decrease in aerobic performance, the sprinters (who don't use the aerobic system) weren't affected. Mexico city is 2300m above sea level. I couldn't find the altitude of Brakpan (where the fight took place) but Johannesburg which is in the same state is 1700m above sea level. Physical activity is made difficult at higher altitudes because the air is thinner, meaning there is less oxygen available, this has a detrimental effect on the aerobic system.

Now, boxing has been estimated to be around 70% anaerobic and 30% aerobic. Because of this, the altitude would not have a huge effect on the fight as boxing doesn't use the aerobic energy system that much anyway, instead a large proportion of energy comes from the lactic acid system which doesn't use oxygen but instead uses the bodies stored glycogen to produce energy. The loss shouldn't be blamed on him being unacclimatised or whatever. He has no excuse for being 'tired' in the 4th round.

[Doppleganger]

I don't think Lewis can blame his loss on just lack of acclimatization. What with him filming Oceans 11 as well I just don't think his mind was really on the job. The fact that he handled Rahman so easily in the rematch makes me think that this was just a bad day at the office for Lewis.

[Pat_Lowe]

I don't think Lewis can blame his loss on just lack of acclimatization. What with him filming Oceans 11 as well I just don't think his mind was really on the job. The fact that he handled Rahman so easily in the rematch makes me think that this was just a bad day at the office for Lewis.

What do you mean his filming of Oceans 11, he is in the film for like 30 seconds. It couldn't have taken more than a day to film. One scene! I agree, I jus think it was a bad day. We all have them, there shouldn't be any excuses thrown out.

[godking]

I am in awe of your analytical prowess, (false)god(toppled)king.Your right right a man vuneraable to just about anyones jab and who could get out of the way of a punch if his life depended on it would only occasionally be hit by a man with a great jab and a monster right hand who tended to destroy big men who he saw as threat .



Idiot.

[godking]

... that is the million dollar question: Bowe's mental place regarding Lewis. I am actually more willing to accept that he may have been defeated already in his own head. This debate with my two friends out here is really more theoretical than usual for me because I am controlling for that speculation. I think that when all is said and done, Bowe's skills exceeded Lewis's, even if his strength and power did not. I go with skills as the primary factor in head to heads. The Futch factor convinces me further.

Those who disagree with rationality find an embrace here!That must be why was beaten across the ring twice by the first big man with skill he faced in Golota right ?.Because he was more skilled then Lewis :roll: :roll: .

I guess his greater skill was also the reason that he was outjabbed by just about anyone who threw a jab at him.

His greater skill also made him so elusive that most people he fought only had a 50 % connect rate against him.

[Ted Stickles]

Lewis all the way and i was more of a Bowe fan back then but you cant argue with logic

[apollack]

Having coached boxers in Colorado Springs, which has a higher altitude than Johannesburg, altitude will affect a little, but it depends on how high up. CO Springs is about twice the altitude, and it does affect the boxers just a bit. However, at half the altitude, it shouldn't be a big deal. Also, both fighters are breathing the same air. And, when a fighter is in shape, it doesn't affect them that much. Certainly, it shouldn't be affecting them as much as it did Lewis that early in the fight.

I think the real reason Lewis was out of shape was that he didn't respect Rahman enough and he was busy and distracted filming Ocean's Eleven. It was patently obvious to me watching that fight live that even early on, Lewis was in poor condition, unmotivated and unfocused. It was sad to see a champion in that state. It was actually worse than McCall, because for McCall, Lewis just over threw a right and got caught with a perfectly timed right. Lewis was in shape, but hadn't yet tightened up his punch form and didn't show enough respect for McCall's chin. I cut Lewis less slack for Rahman because his performance was pathetic for him even before he got caught, and he had no business smiling and leaning on the ropes right before he got hit. Anyone who saw Rahman against Corrie Sanders and Jeff Wooden would know that the guy had heart, conditioning, and could punch. You don't mess around with guys like that.

[Stonehands89]

The details can be so easily pieced together it was not necessary to dig up the tangibles. Riddick Bowe showed during his career that 1) He has problems with large men who can jab 2) He could be hurt by lesser punchers than Lewis and 3) He was not too keen on fighting Lennox Lewis. Lennox Lewis showed during his career that 1) His brand of boxing seemed to improve when he fought bigger men 2) He had a lethal punching power/a top jab and 3) A willingness to fight Bowe. Bowe did not sport the manoeuvrability or conventional defence to stop a mission driven' Lennox Lewis from sinking in his booming right after taking charge. Riddick had much heart, but Lewis' arsenal would have him for toast, and if they had a rematch it would be supper time. Lennox was the superior athlete; the stronger man, the more punishing puncher, and to top it off he has the supreme mental edge. Riddick Bowe's style of smooth boxing worked wonderful, when that is, he was in the driving seat. Lennox is the driver all the way here.

Your list contains a litany of Bowe's faults, most arguable, and Lewis's virtues, which are also arguable. Anyone agreeing with the premise that Bowe was scared of Lewis and would not beat Lewis will love what they see because it reflects their own presuppositions.

Riddick defeated a prime and undefeated Holyfield and that victory completely eclipses every one of Lewis's victories. I think that is more than simple opinion.

After that, Newman convinced Bowe to take the money road with easy defenses and he chose to fight Dokes over Lewis -which is lamentable, yes. Lewis's demolition of Ruddock at around the same time that Bowe took the title should have guaranteed their meeting soon afterwards. I fault Bowe for not stepping in front of his manager but stop short of calling him a coward like so many posters here do because it is speculative -and may be wrong. How many fighters have the intelligence or confidence in their own business savvy to overrule their managers? There are legions of great fighters who did not fight who they should have fought because management had other idea$. Bowe was no braniac and Newman was an intellectual bully who controlled Bowe.

What you don't know or have forgotten is that Bowe signed to fight Lewis in March or April of 1995. Bowe was ecstatic about it and was reported as thanking Newman profusily. That casts a little doubt on these theories of cowardice. The fight got got derailed... Who remembers why?

--Because Lewis got KOd by McCall...

After Golota punished what was left of Bowe after the rubber match with Holyfield it wasn't going to happen. I am not convinced that Bowe would not have fought Lewis indefinitely but for circumstances -including his losing to Holy in the rematch, the Lewis upset, and the incredibly short prime for Bowe.

Bowe chased money instead of glory when he got the title. That is a fact. Whether or not he was "scared" of Lewis is arguable. I remember when they faced off after Bowe took the title and Lewis was commentating. Bowe didn't look like a rabbit then.

Riddick went on to defeat 3 undefeated contenders in Hide, Donald, and Gonzalez.

Bowe reached his full potential for a brief window and that effects his legacy in a big way... but when he did he was a more complete fighter than Lewis and had the tools to beat him. Your analysis of the tangibles is rooted in Lewis's power and Bowe's alleged bad defense. A fine British block touts the same.

The problem is that no mention is made of Bowe's more versatile offensive arsenal, combination punching, superior chin, and an 85 year old strategist standing behind Bowe who's insight makes even Freddie Brown blush.

[apollack]

Stone hands. That was a great post. You convinced me to a certain degree. I think they were apprehensive about Lewis and did want to make some paydays before building that risky fight to a mega payday. I think most likely Newman anticipated Bowe defeating Holy in the rematch and THEN fighting Lewis. And like you said, timing threw a lot of things off. Lewis eventually losing to McCall screwed things up just as did Bowe's loss. If Bowe was willing to fight undefeated monsters and good punchers like Holy, Herbie Hide (who badly brain damaged Bennt), Jorge Luis Gonzalez (who decked Bowe as an amateur), and Andrew Golota, then I don't see why they wouldn't be willing to take on Lewis. Personally, I think the hugest mistake of Newman's managerial duties was taking the rematch with Golota. After Bowe got the techncial win, and they saw he had a tough time stylewise with Andrew, they should have left him alone and chalked it up to they don't want to get into a foulfest again and have another riot that would be bad for boxing. Bowe was still in a great position to wait it out a bit, he had that recent KO win over Evander, and they could have fought a couple bums and eventually had a mega fight with Lewis or Tyson.

[Stonehands89]

Stone hands. That was a great post. You convinced me to a certain degree. I think they were apprehensive about Lewis and did want to make some paydays before building that risky fight to a mega payday. I think most likely Newman anticipated Bowe defeating Holy in the rematch and THEN fighting Lewis. And like you said, timing threw a lot of things off. Lewis eventually losing to McCall screwed things up just as did Bowe's loss. If Bowe was willing to fight undefeated monsters and good punchers like Holy, Herbie Hide (who badly brain damaged Bennt), Jorge Luis Gonzalez (who decked Bowe as an amateur), and Andrew Golota, then I don't see why they wouldn't be willing to take on Lewis. Personally, I think the hugest mistake of Newman's managerial duties was taking the rematch with Golota. After Bowe got the techncial win, and they saw he had a tough time stylewise with Andrew, they should have left him alone and chalked it up to they don't want to get into a foulfest again and have another riot that would be bad for boxing. Bowe was still in a great position to wait it out a bit, he had that recent KO win over Evander, and they could have fought a couple bums and eventually had a mega fight with Lewis or Tyson.

Thank you, apollack. I'm hopelessly outnumbered out here, so your post was a welcome respite from the shots and countershots.

I think that human nature is what it is and we are all apt to look at things simply and make inferences based on faulty or incomplete information. Boxing has a harvest of opportunities for that because it exposes who a man is. Standing alone in the ring in your shorts taking and giving concussions leaves the boxer vulnerable to psychologists on the couch.

I was tending to the same thing about Bowe earlier in this thread, but upon returning to review there only recorded meeting -it was striking to me how much is being made of so little. Bowe was not being thrashed by Lewis and the stoppage was a bad one. Bowe actually had some good moments in there -particularly to the body.

Bowe shined only briefly, but he remains the most skilled and the most complete "super-heavyweight" I ever saw.

[Ted Spoon]

Your list contains a litany of Bowe's faults, most arguable, and Lewis's virtues, which are also arguable. Anyone agreeing with the premise that Bowe was scared of Lewis and would not beat Lewis will love what they see because it reflects their own presuppositions.

Riddick defeated a prime and undefeated Holyfield and that victory completely eclipses every one of Lewis's victories. I think that is more than simple opinion.

After that, Newman convinced Bowe to take the money road with easy defenses and he chose to fight Dokes over Lewis -which is lamentable, yes. Lewis's demolition of Ruddock at around the same time that Bowe took the title should have guaranteed their meeting soon afterwards. I fault Bowe for not stepping in front of his manager but stop short of calling him a coward like so many posters here do because it is speculative -and may be wrong. How many fighters have the intelligence or confidence in their own business savvy to overrule their managers? There are legions of great fighters who did not fight who they should have fought because management had other idea$. Bowe was no braniac and Newman was an intellectual bully who controlled Bowe.

What you don't know or have forgotten is that Bowe signed to fight Lewis in March or April of 1995. Bowe was ecstatic about it and was reported as thanking Newman profusily. That casts a little doubt on these theories of cowardice. The fight got got derailed... Who remembers why?

--Because Lewis got KOd by McCall...

After Golota punished what was left of Bowe after the rubber match with Holyfield it wasn't going to happen. I am not convinced that Bowe would not have fought Lewis indefinitely but for circumstances -including his losing to Holy in the rematch, the Lewis upset, and the incredibly short prime for Bowe.

Bowe chased money instead of glory when he got the title. That is a fact. Whether or not he was "scared" of Lewis is arguable. I remember when they faced off after Bowe took the title and Lewis was commentating. Bowe didn't look like a rabbit then.

Riddick went on to defeat 3 undefeated contenders in Hide, Seldon, and Gonzalez.

Bowe reached his full potential for a brief window and that effects his legacy in a big way... but when he did he was a more complete fighter than Lewis and had the tools to beat him. Your analysis of the tangibles is rooted in Lewis's power and Bowe's alleged bad defense. A fine British block touts the same.

The problem is that no mention is made of Bowe's more versatile offensive arsenal, combination punching, superior chin, and an 85 year old strategist standing behind Bowe who's insight makes even Freddie Brown blush. A post sometimes across as lackadaisical to prove a point, nay worries.

There really is no need in putting forth the managerial opinions at the time.

Bottom line; If Riddick Bowe truly wanted to take on the man who defeated him he should have jumped at the opportunity; he was not just hesitant, but back-peddled. So he talked about it much and perhaps his team got him convinced he could win so he was willing at one time. It does not change the fact that'd he'd prefer not to fight Lennox, which is a mental disadvantage that even the great Eddie Futch could probably not iron out.

There's only so much you can do with a man, and while later Futch lost hope in Bowe, Steward and Lewis were a killer team, and Lewis, just generally, is a huge challenge for Bowe.

Lewis' advantages over Bowe in a head-to-head clash almost verge on as being general rules.

On paper, Lennox is a bit of a nightmare for Riddick. Bowe loses his size advantage; he is neither the stronger of more powerful man, and he is out-reached against a man who knows how to utilise his reach.

Bowe buzzed off being the bigger man as it just helped his short, whipping combinations shine when he lured his victims in. Bowe was a Holyfield dismantling machine, and yes, his first victory against Evander was beautiful.

Bowe was better suited to taming a similar foe, but Lewis is nearly everything Holyfield wasn't. Lewis loved the outside fight, but when close he was a terror to deal with his strength and sly leaning-on tactics - a far-cry from the 205lbs Holyfield leaping at Bowe and being mashed.

Bowe the more 'complete' fighter... It's a toughie. Bowe seemed to flow more in the ring, whereas Lewis could sometimes get muddled as he misplayed possum, attacker and some ill timed showboating did him no favours.

However, Lewis was more versatile when it came to taming the big bangers. He'd be the long-ranged bomber against Bowe, who'd have to fight an unnatural fight to make things happen ala Golota 2.

Lewis makes it his game, raises Bowe, and then deals the bigger hands.

Could be wrong, but it's 97.53% chance that Ted Spoon is not.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I always thought Bowe might have the physical tools to beat Lennox (jab, workrate) but not the mental tools. Lewis also looked better against the really big fuckers. Lewis TKO 9.

[ChrisPontius]

What you don't know or have forgotten is that Bowe signed to fight Lewis in March or April of 1995.

Bowe also signed to fight Lewis in 1991. And we know how much that meant.

Stupid, actually, because in 1991/1992 he had a good chance of beating Lewis. In 1995 his chances were much, much slimmer.

[godking]

Stone hands. That was a great post. You convinced me to a certain degree. I think they were apprehensive about Lewis and did want to make some paydays before building that risky fight to a mega payday. I think most likely Newman anticipated Bowe defeating Holy in the rematch and THEN fighting Lewis. And like you said, timing threw a lot of things off. Lewis eventually losing to McCall screwed things up just as did Bowe's loss. If Bowe was willing to fight undefeated monsters and good punchers like Holy, Herbie Hide (who badly brain damaged Bennt), Jorge Luis Gonzalez (who decked Bowe as an amateur), and Andrew Golota, then I don't see why they wouldn't be willing to take on Lewis. Personally, I think the hugest mistake of Newman's managerial duties was taking the rematch with Golota. After Bowe got the techncial win, and they saw he had a tough time stylewise with Andrew, they should have left him alone and chalked it up to they don't want to get into a foulfest again and have another riot that would be bad for boxing. Bowe was still in a great position to wait it out a bit, he had that recent KO win over Evander, and they could have fought a couple bums and eventually had a mega fight with Lewis or Tyson.Hide Gonzalez & Golota monsters ?:roll: .

Hide and Gonzalez where third tier HWS of the era Golota was a second tier HW .

In a good HW era the only first and second tier HWS Bowe fought where Holyfield and Golota.

And another thing every elite HW Golota fought put him in his rightful place except for one guy who got his ass kicked twice only to luckily get a win by DQ.

[DamonD]

Thank you, apollack. I'm hopelessly outnumbered out here, so your post was a welcome respite from the shots and countershots.
Hey, nothing personal. I'm disputing your view about Bowe, with each of us probably having seen the same amount of his fights but coming to different conclusions, but I've nothing against you as a person.

[Stonehands89]

A post sometimes across as lackadaisical to prove a point, nay worries.

There really is no need in putting forth the managerial opinions at the time.

Bottom line; If Riddick Bowe truly wanted to take on the man who defeated him he should have jumped at the opportunity; he was not just hesitant, but back-peddled. So he talked about it much and perhaps his team got him convinced he could win so he was willing at one time. It does not change the fact that'd he'd prefer not to fight Lennox, which is a mental disadvantage that even the great Eddie Futch could probably not iron out.
A mental disadvantage perhaps. Or, he could have channelled his anxiety and trained like he never had before. That is boxing. Fear is the advantage more often than not.

Your argument was used by all and sundry when Leonard dashed talk of a Hagler fight in '82. Hagler was too strong, too powerful, and Leonard is scared, they said. It took Leonard years to stand up and take the challenge but when he did, your % would have sat down.

There's only so much you can do with a man, and while later Futch lost hope in Bowe, Steward and Lewis were a killer team, and Lewis, just generally, is a huge challenge for Bowe.
Lewis is a huge challenge for Bowe... and vice versa! Let's not forget that. Had Lewis beaten Bowe it would have been his greatest achievement. Had Bowe beaten Lewis it would have been his first or second greatest achievement.

Futch did indeed ultimately leave Bowe because of his cardinal sins of sloth and gluttony. That is noted... but it does nothing to dispute my argument.

Lewis' advantages over Bowe in a head-to-head clash almost verge on as being general rules.

On paper, Lennox is a bit of a nightmare for Riddick. Bowe loses his size advantage; he is neither the stronger of more powerful man, and he is out-reached against a man who knows how to utilise his reach.
Too much is being made of this. Gonzalez was undefeated, on the rise, and got destroyed by Bowe in 6. He was outcold for 3 minutes. What were his advantages over Bowe? The same you and I see that Lewis had. Fact is, Bowe overcame both advantages with ease. Lewis had a style and technique that looked more like Gonzales than Bowe.

Bowe buzzed off being the bigger man as it just helped his short, whipping combinations shine when he lured his victims in. Bowe was a Holyfield dismantling machine, and yes, his first victory against Evander was beautiful.
Bowe was better suited to taming a similar foe, but Lewis is nearly everything Holyfield wasn't. Lewis loved the outside fight, but when close he was a terror to deal with his strength and sly leaning-on tactics - a far-cry from the 205lbs Holyfield leaping at Bowe and being mashed.
Short and whipping inside combinations are better on bigger men, not smaller men. Bigger target. Even on the inside, where Bowe is far better, it is being made into a disadvantage -and why ...because Lewis was an expert "leaner"?!

Bowe the more 'complete' fighter... It's a toughie. Bowe seemed to flow more in the ring, whereas Lewis could sometimes get muddled as he misplayed possum, attacker and some ill timed showboating did him no favours.

However, Lewis was more versatile when it came to taming the big bangers. He'd be the long-ranged bomber against Bowe, who'd have to fight an unnatural fight to make things happen ala Golota 2.

Lewis makes it his game, raises Bowe, and then deals the bigger hands.

Could be wrong, but it's 97.53% chance that Ted Spoon is not.
It's hard to accept Lewis's superiority with taming bangers when he was knocked senseless by second-raters... in his prime.

As to Golota, I think that a combination of the Holyfield wars and the dehydration that the rapidly weight losing Bowe went through time and time again accelerated his deterioration. He was ripe for Golota.

Lewis's chance lies at long-range, but you seriously overstate his advantages and seriously understate Bowe's. Take Bowe's complete record of performances and see them all in a general sense and it is no wonder why Lewis is the favorite. I would tend to agree. However, take a prime, inspired, well-conditioned, Futch-trained talent in Bowe and that is something else altogether.

I see this playing out as either a boxing lesson favoring Bowe if Lewis is aggressive or a whole lot of posturing if Lewis is not. That would be for the first 4 or so rounds. Bowe would probably be slightly up on the cards. And then chances are good that Bowe would get caught with a good shot, and then brawl. And that is where it would get interesting. Lewis's shots were like A-Bombs, but Bowe could throw them with more intelligence and in combinations. If Lewis gets caught with a shot he doesn't see -and that is possible if he sets and bombs away, then he could go to sleep. Bowe never did. Now before Tyson, Ruddock, and Golota are brought up, let's keep in mind that none of them jammed with him -they were overrun and did not counter and exploit the bad positioning that Lewis would fall into while launching. Holyfield, faded though he was, could and did counter, but was physically outgunned. Bowe was countering a great counterpuncher in Holyfield. He would neither be physically outgunned nor would he simply take shots and 'wait for his turn' -which didn't come for Lewis's famed quick KOs. I see Bowe coming right back at the openings with slightly less powerful but shorter punches. And finding that chin.

I give Bowe a 55% to 60% chance over Lewis -There's some Stonehands wisdom to offset the Spoon ego.

I do appreciate your better attempt at recognizing Bowe's assets.

[Stonehands89]

Hey, nothing personal. I'm disputing your view about Bowe, with each of us probably having seen the same amount of his fights but coming to different conclusions, but I've nothing against you as a person.

Hey! No offense is taken! When I say I'm taking shots, I mean it as something welcomed, not as personal slights. I get annoyed only by hammerhead posts. Your posts are high quality.

[Doppleganger]

Having coached boxers in Colorado Springs, which has a higher altitude than Johannesburg, altitude will affect a little, but it depends on how high up. CO Springs is about twice the altitude, and it does affect the boxers just a bit. However, at half the altitude, it shouldn't be a big deal. Also, both fighters are breathing the same air. And, when a fighter is in shape, it doesn't affect them that much. Certainly, it shouldn't be affecting them as much as it did Lewis that early in the fight.

I think the real reason Lewis was out of shape was that he didn't respect Rahman enough and he was busy and distracted filming Ocean's Eleven. It was patently obvious to me watching that fight live that even early on, Lewis was in poor condition, unmotivated and unfocused. It was sad to see a champion in that state. It was actually worse than McCall, because for McCall, Lewis just over threw a right and got caught with a perfectly timed right. Lewis was in shape, but hadn't yet tightened up his punch form and didn't show enough respect for McCall's chin. I cut Lewis less slack for Rahman because his performance was pathetic for him even before he got caught, and he had no business smiling and leaning on the ropes right before he got hit. Anyone who saw Rahman against Corrie Sanders and Jeff Wooden would know that the guy had heart, conditioning, and could punch. You don't mess around with guys like that.
I think so too Apollack. He looked past Rahman and paid the price for it. It was by some margin his worst performance.

[ripcity]

1995 was the end of Bowe's peek and Lewis was entering his.

[Ted Spoon]

A mental disadvantage perhaps. Or, he could have channelled his anxiety and trained like he never had before. That is boxing. Fear is the advantage more often than not.

Your argument was used by all and sundry when Leonard dashed talk of a Hagler fight in '82. Hagler was too strong, too powerful, and Leonard is scared, they said. It took Leonard years to stand up and take the challenge but when he did, your % would have sat down.


Lewis is a huge challenge for Bowe... and vice versa! Let's not forget that. Had Lewis beaten Bowe it would have been his greatest achievement. Had Bowe beaten Lewis it would have been his first or second greatest achievement.

Futch did indeed ultimately leave Bowe because of his cardinal sins of sloth and gluttony. That is noted... but it does nothing to dispute my argument.


Too much is being made of this. Gonzalez was undefeated, on the rise, and got destroyed by Bowe in 6. He was outcold for 3 minutes. What were his advantages over Bowe? The same you and I see that Lewis had. Fact is, Bowe overcame both advantages with ease. Lewis had a style and technique that looked more like Gonzales than Bowe.


Short and whipping inside combinations are better on bigger men, not smaller men. Bigger target. Even on the inside, where Bowe is far better, it is being made into a disadvantage -and why ...because Lewis was an expert "leaner"?!


It's hard to accept Lewis's superiority with taming bangers when he was knocked senseless by second-raters... in his prime.

As to Golota, I think that a combination of the Holyfield wars and the dehydration that the rapidly weight losing Bowe went through time and time again accelerated his deterioration. He was ripe for Golota.

Lewis's chance lies at long-range, but you seriously overstate his advantages and seriously understate Bowe's. Take Bowe's complete record of performances and see them all in a general sense and it is no wonder why Lewis is the favorite. I would tend to agree. However, take a prime, inspired, well-conditioned, Futch-trained talent in Bowe and that is something else altogether.

I see this playing out as either a boxing lesson favoring Bowe if Lewis is aggressive or a whole lot of posturing if Lewis is not. That would be for the first 4 or so rounds. Bowe would probably be slightly up on the cards. And then chances are good that Bowe would get caught with a good shot, and then brawl. And that is where it would get interesting. Lewis's shots were like A-Bombs, but Bowe could throw them with more intelligence and in combinations. If Lewis gets caught with a shot he doesn't see -and that is possible if he sets and bombs away, then he could go to sleep. Bowe never did. Now before Tyson, Ruddock, and Golota are brought up, let's keep in mind that none of them jammed with him -they were overrun and did not counter and exploit the bad positioning that Lewis would fall into while launching. Holyfield, faded though he was, could and did counter, but was physically outgunned. Bowe was countering a great counterpuncher in Holyfield. He would neither be physically outgunned nor would he simply take shots and 'wait for his turn' -which didn't come for Lewis's famed quick KOs. I see Bowe coming right back at the openings with slightly less powerful but shorter punches. And finding that chin.

I give Bowe a 55% to 60% chance over Lewis -There's some Stonehands wisdom to offset the Spoon ego.

I do appreciate your better attempt at recognizing Bowe's assets. ‘Sugar’ Ray Leonard was a risk taker, and secondly he had never been previously beaten by Hagler. While your points about fear are not untrue, the comparison is a bit far-fetched. Bowe was of a different nature and position.

The key word is assertiveness. Lewis knew how to assert himself in the ring and punctuate his advantages to a degree better than most Heavyweights. Lewis had great spirit and fire to go along with his tools. Gonzalez only had a blunted version of those tools.

Lewis leant on you and induced referee separations. Shannon Briggs likened punching Lewis’ arms to punching steel. Lennox was a great diffuser. Lewis would be the one running proceedings and time his inside clamps to make sure he did not get countered like Holyfield did. As Ted Spoon said, Lennox would be in the driving seat.

Lewis was beaten once by a freak punch when not the well-rounded fighter he became and later done in after his worst ever performance. The results were not acceptable, but there are reasons for his two massive failings.

Bowe was running out of steam when it came to Golota, but at the same time it was Golota who was applying the final nails to the coffin. Golota would have always given Bowe trouble; tall, strong, educated, snappy jab.

Ted Spoon, perhaps slightly overstates Lewis’ advantages and understates Bowe’s a bit more to make a point, but certainly not ‘seriously over and understate’ on each point. Bowe has a chance to win, as does anyone, but Lewis would make him appear a lot less than the fighter he really is - this is the point - Lewis takes away from his game in a big way.

The difference is Holyfield was the craftier fighter of whom Lewis had more respect for. Not to mention that cast iron chin. Holyfield had a knack of smothering punches and masking pain. Bowe’s stance and positioning is far more vulnerable to Lewis’ peach right.

There is no ego, only the ever-loving truth.

[Stonehands89]

1995 was the end of Bowe's peek and Lewis was entering his.

That is true; and I fear that I may have hijacked this post by arguing on behalf of a prime Bowe.

[Holmes' Jab]

MDWC sums things up well. Bowe had the skills, but was vunerable against ATG hitters and after Seol '88 would mentally be unsure of himself.

Most likely outcome is that Lewis wins: Anyway, anyhow, and anywhere he chooses.

[Stonehands89]

‘Sugar’ Ray Leonard was a risk taker, and secondly he had never been previously beaten by Hagler. While your points about fear are not untrue, the comparison is a bit far-fetched. Bowe was of a different nature and position.
The comparison was neither about personality nor history, it was about the public's tendency to psychoanalyze from great distances with limited information. Leonard was "scared". Bowe was "scared". An intellect should be armed with facts and valid inferences -not simplistic assumptions.

The key word is assertiveness. Lewis knew how to assert himself in the ring and punctuate his advantages to a degree better than most Heavyweights. Lewis had great spirit and fire to go along with his tools. Gonzalez only had a blunted version of those tools.
The point remains: Gonzalez was stronger and hit harder than Bowe and it amounted to nothing -because Bowe was punching inside of his looping power shots. Gonzalez style was more similar to Lewis than to the more technically savvy Bowe. He was undefeated as a pro with 1 guy out of 23 lasting the distance. Didn't matter -Bowe fought angrily but efficienly and destroyed him.

Gonzalez looked to me like he was not only assertive, he was downright menacing, before Bowe deposited him on his cheek.

And finally, Gonzalez beat Bowe and Lewis in the amateurs.

Lewis leant on you and induced referee separations. Shannon Briggs likened punching Lewis’ arms to punching steel. Lennox was a great diffuser. Lewis would be the one running proceedings and time his inside clamps to make sure he did not get countered like Holyfield did. As Ted Spoon said, Lennox would be in the driving seat.

Lewis, the "Great Leaner"... Lewis was indeed a great diffuser, against relatively small men who he could physically overwhelm. I don't see such simple tactics being enough to put Lewis "in the driver's seat".

Lewis was beaten once by a freak punch when not the well-rounded fighter he became and later done in after his worst ever performance. The results were not acceptable, but there are reasons for his two massive failings.

Bowe was running out of steam when it came to Golota, but at the same time it was Golota who was applying the final nails to the coffin. Golota would have always given Bowe trouble; tall, strong, educated, snappy jab.
There are reasons indeed -but not excuses. I don't believe for a moment that the reasons are even good ones. Lewis demonstrated more vulnerability than any of his peers among the great HW champions. That is undeniable.

Ted Spoon, perhaps slightly overstates Lewis’ advantages and understates Bowe’s a bit more to make a point, but certainly not ‘seriously over and understate’ on each point. Bowe has a chance to win, as does anyone, but Lewis would make him appear a lot less than the fighter he really is - this is the point - Lewis takes away from his game in a big way.

The difference is Holyfield was the craftier fighter of whom Lewis had more respect for. Not to mention that cast iron chin. Holyfield had a knack of smothering punches and masking pain. Bowe’s stance and positioning is far more vulnerable to Lewis’ peach right.

There is no ego, only the ever-loving truth.
Your overstating Lewis and understating Bowe and my claims as to the degreee by which you do both is purely subjective. I remember our debate about Duran and Pryor and your claim was the same -that Pryor would be in the driver's seat and wouldn't allow Duran to impose his will. I'll give you this much, that scenerio would be more likely with Bowe-Lewis than Duran-Pryor.

Nevertheless, we'll just have to agree to disagree about the details and the victor.

Finally, any man who refers to himself in the third person and who claims a monopoly on the truth has forfeited any right to deny the weightiness of his own ego. It's okay, Ted, I hold you in high esteem -ego and error notwithstanding.

[godking]

The comparison was neither about personality nor history, it was about the public's tendency to psychoanalyze from great distances with limited information. Leonard was "scared". Bowe was "scared". An intellect should be armed with facts and valid inferences -not simplistic assumptions.


The point remains: Gonzalez was stronger and hit harder than Bowe and it amounted to nothing -because Bowe was punching inside of his looping power shots. Gonzalez style was more similar to Lewis than to the more technically savvy Bowe. He was undefeated as a pro with 1 guy out of 23 lasting the distance. Didn't matter -Bowe fought angrily but efficienly and destroyed him.

Gonzalez looked to me like he was not only assertive, he was downright menacing, before Bowe deposited him on his cheek.

And finally, Gonzalez beat Bowe and Lewis in the amateurs.



Lewis, the "Great Leaner"... Lewis was indeed a great diffuser, against relatively small men who he could physically overwhelm. I don't see such simple tactics being enough to put Lewis "in the driver's seat".


There are reasons indeed -but not excuses. I don't believe for a moment that the reasons are even good ones. Lewis demonstrated more vulnerability than any of his peers among the great HW champions. That is undeniable.


Your overstating Lewis and understating Bowe and my claims as to the degreee by which you do both is purely subjective. I remember our debate about Duran and Pryor and your claim was the same -that Pryor would be in the driver's seat and wouldn't allow Duran to impose his will. I'll give you this much, that scenerio would be more likely with Bowe-Lewis than Duran-Pryor.

Nevertheless, we'll just have to agree to disagree about the details and the victor.

Finally, any man who refers to himself in the third person and who claims a monopoly on the truth has forfeited any right to deny the weightiness of his own ego. It's okay, Ted, I hold you in high esteem -ego and error notwithstanding.Gonzalez menacing ? :lol: :lol: .

Gonzales was a THIRD TIER pro HW of the era .

So Gonzalez = Lewis right ? :roll: :roll: .

The fact remained that only big man who was at least second tier that Bowe fought in the 90s in Golota whipped him twice.

Stop bringi ng up third tier HWs like Gonzales and Hide.


Iit does not matter how much you try and dress up the facts by claiming that Bowe wa more technically proficient then he really was. Its not gonna work on guys who actually saw the fights of the 90s.

Technically superior Hws dont have the horrible defense that Bowe had and dont get outjabbed by EVERYONE who threw a jab at them .

Bowe was able to pull out a trilogy with a smallish HW in Holyfield that does not make him the God who walked like man you believe him to be.


Take the Holyfield trilogy away and Bowe did'nt do a damn thing in the entire era.

Bowe was only the 4th best HW of the era.

[Ted Spoon]

The comparison was neither about personality nor history, it was about the public's tendency to psychoanalyze from great distances with limited information. Leonard was "scared". Bowe was "scared". An intellect should be armed with facts and valid inferences -not simplistic assumptions.


The point remains: Gonzalez was stronger and hit harder than Bowe and it amounted to nothing -because Bowe was punching inside of his looping power shots. Gonzalez style was more similar to Lewis than to the more technically savvy Bowe. He was undefeated as a pro with 1 guy out of 23 lasting the distance. Didn't matter -Bowe fought angrily but efficienly and destroyed him.

Gonzalez looked to me like he was not only assertive, he was downright menacing, before Bowe deposited him on his cheek.

And finally, Gonzalez beat Bowe and Lewis in the amateurs.



Lewis, the "Great Leaner"... Lewis was indeed a great diffuser, against relatively small men who he could physically overwhelm. I don't see such simple tactics being enough to put Lewis "in the driver's seat".


There are reasons indeed -but not excuses. I don't believe for a moment that the reasons are even good ones. Lewis demonstrated more vulnerability than any of his peers among the great HW champions. That is undeniable.


Your overstating Lewis and understating Bowe and my claims as to the degreee by which you do both is purely subjective. I remember our debate about Duran and Pryor and your claim was the same -that Pryor would be in the driver's seat and wouldn't allow Duran to impose his will. I'll give you this much, that scenerio would be more likely with Bowe-Lewis than Duran-Pryor.

Nevertheless, we'll just have to agree to disagree about the details and the victor.

Finally, any man who refers to himself in the third person and who claims a monopoly on the truth has forfeited any right to deny the weightiness of his own ego. It's okay, Ted, I hold you in high esteem -ego and error notwithstanding.
The heart of the argument was about the media’s opinion on supposedly ‘scared’ fighters, but you initially rounded off your point with mentioning of Leonard’s success, seemingly insinuating Bowe’s chance of success when they where different men. That’s how it appeared.

The difference is Bowe and Lewis improved ten-fold after the amateurs. Gonzalez did not, and Gonzalez was nowhere near as assertive, strong, or as stylistically flexible as Lewis. He did not move or utilise his dimensions like Lewis. He had a paper record and then fell into oblivion when he rose above D level fighters.

He was more like Lewis than Bowe, correct, and he sported perhaps 15% of Lewis’ ability.

It is you who overstates Bowe’s ability and understates Lewis’… Yes/no… Who knows… Who cares. Let’s not accuse our stances, but rather fully hear each other out.

What Ted Spoon believes is that if a peak Bowe had somehow fought Lennox Lewis, during his prime, that he would suffer mentally, become gun shy, and soon start imploding when he sampled Lewis’ long range bombardment - this in itself is a guess, but not a blind one. That is probably how Lewis would go about things. He would try to smoke Bowe out, and judging from Bowe’s career that is probably what he would least like to cope with - a man whom he has negative history with, not giving him time to settle and threatening him with rangy bombs.

Fighters work well off fear, not off intimidation. It is a popular belief that Bowe, while he may not have been down-right scared, was intimidated to the point that he perhaps knew himself it would hinder his performance had he got the fight underway. Lewis once said; “Are you going to be chicken, Bowe?” Was he? Ted Spoon says probably.

All of this is indeed speculation that you are rightly putting under fire, but it has got to be one of the strongest cases of displayed negativity towards another fighter in Heavyweight history, which counts as a serious factor in a fictitious match.

Lewis was not a durable Heavyweight champion, but he had a structure that was hard to budge and exerted great power. It worked better on the smaller men but even Briggs, Grant and Vitali all felt his presence on the inside; he won those inside battles. He could be quite vicious.

In all of Lewis’ fights he won was he not anything less but a supreme hand full with a variety of ways to shut you out? He did not struggle in his career like Bowe had a few times during their ‘primes’.

The drift about Pryor was not that he would be in the driving seat but rather that Duran would not be able to ‘tame’ him. Another invigorating conversation.

You have defended the extreme speculation whereas yours truly has driven forth the general consensus. The points of concern have been swapped and we’ve reached a stalemate in terms our opinions, but on a plain, neutral bases, it is the belief of Ted Spoon that Lennox Lewis should be favoured over Riddick Bowe in a mythical match-up due to the rhythm of their careers and the fighters they were.

[Stonehands89]

Gonzalez menacing ? :lol: :lol: .

Gonzales was a THIRD TIER pro HW of the era .

So Gonzalez = Lewis right ? :roll: :roll: .

The fact remained that only big man who was at least second tier that Bowe fought in the 90s in Golota whipped him twice.

Stop bringi ng up third tier HWs like Gonzales and Hide.


Iit does not matter how much you try and dress up the facts by claiming that Bowe wa more technically proficient then he really was. Its not gonna work on guys who actually saw the fights of the 90s.

Technically superior Hws dont have the horrible defense that Bowe had and dont get outjabbed by EVERYONE who threw a jab at them .

Bowe was able to pull out a trilogy with a smallish HW in Holyfield that does not make him the God who walked like man you believe him to be.


Take the Holyfield trilogy away and Bowe did'nt do a damn thing in the entire era.

Bowe was only the 4th best HW of the era.

Gonzalez was dismissed after Bowe destroyed him. Hide was dismissed after Bowe defeated him. Donald was undefeated. Buster Mathis Jr. was undefeated. Holyfield, who is a great HW champion, regardless of size and regardless of your opinion, and was undefeated. You give Bowe's accomplishments short thrift and ignore the man's obvious skills which were considerably more than "infighting".

You have established yourself as the emoticon king and the god of redundant, single-issue posts. "Bowe can't evade the jab" and my analysis sucks.

Okay, your opinion has been noted, now go back to the lounge before I chase you out of here.

[JohnThomas1]

Gonzalez was dismissed after Bowe destroyed him. Hide was dismissed after Bowe defeated him. Donald was undefeated. Buster Mathis Jr. was undefeated.

Bowe and Lewis have something in common here then, people soon wrote off Mason 35-0, Jackson 30-1-0 and Briggs 30-1-0 after Lennox defeated them too.

[Stonehands89]

The heart of the argument was about the media’s opinion on supposedly ‘scared’ fighters, but you initially rounded off your point with mentioning of Leonard’s success, seemingly insinuating Bowe’s chance of success when they where different men. That’s how it appeared.

The difference is Bowe and Lewis improved ten-fold after the amateurs. Gonzalez did not, and Gonzalez was nowhere near as assertive, strong, or as stylistically flexible as Lewis. He did not move or utilise his dimensions like Lewis. He had a paper record and then fell into oblivion when he rose above D level fighters.

He was more like Lewis than Bowe, correct, and he sported perhaps 15% of Lewis’ ability.

It is you who overstates Bowe’s ability and understates Lewis’… Yes/no… Who knows… Who cares. Let’s not accuse our stances, but rather fully hear each other out.

What Ted Spoon believes is that if a peak Bowe had somehow fought Lennox Lewis, during his prime, that he would suffer mentally, become gun shy, and soon start imploding when he sampled Lewis’ long range bombardment - this in itself is a guess, but not a blind one. That is probably how Lewis would go about things. He would try to smoke Bowe out, and judging from Bowe’s career that is probably what he would least like to cope with - a man whom he has negative history with, not giving him time to settle and threatening him with rangy bombs.

Fighters work well off fear, not off intimidation. It is a popular belief that Bowe, while he may not have been down-right scared, was intimidated to the point that he perhaps knew himself it would hinder his performance had he got the fight underway. Lewis once said; “Are you going to be chicken, Bowe?” Was he? Ted Spoon says probably.

All of this is indeed speculation that you are rightly putting under fire, but it has got to be one of the strongest cases of displayed negativity towards another fighter in Heavyweight history, which counts as a serious factor in a fictitious match.

Lewis was not a durable Heavyweight champion, but he had a structure that was hard to budge and exerted great power. It worked better on the smaller men but even Briggs, Grant and Vitali all felt his presence on the inside; he won those inside battles. He could be quite vicious.

In all of Lewis’ fights he won was he not anything less but a supreme hand full with a variety of ways to shut you out? He did not struggle in his career like Bowe had a few times during their ‘primes’.

The drift about Pryor was not that he would be in the driving seat but rather that Duran would not be able to ‘tame’ him. Another invigorating conversation.

You have defended the extreme speculation whereas yours truly has driven forth the general consensus. The points of concern have been swapped and we’ve reached a stalemate in terms our opinions, but on a plain, neutral bases, it is the belief of Ted Spoon that Lennox Lewis should be favoured over Riddick Bowe in a mythical match-up due to the rhythm of their careers and the fighters they were.

Sound analysis is reliant on objective facts and valid inferences. Care should be taken with injecting it with subjective opinion and assumptions. You have done that. I made known my dissent because Bowe's skills were being overlooked and the argument against him revolved around a loose -and in my opinion careless- theory about his trembling at the mention of Lewis's name.

You believe that Bowe was intimidated and that would factor into the match-up. I don't -necessarily- see it that way and have chosen instead to give him the benefit of the doubt in order to maximize the integrity of the fantasy match-up.

Gonzalez wasn't even close to Lewis in terms of greatness and that was never asserted. He was offered as an example of 1. Bowe's ability to handle larger men, 2. Bowe's ability to overcome a loss in the amateurs, 3. Bowe's right hand (which has been totally underestimated on this thread), and 4. Bowe's excellent offensive arsenal -to wit, the short punches delivered inside loops.

Simply because Bowe whipped Gonzalez doesn't mean that he would thus and therefore beat Lewis. It simply suggests that Bowe had the tools to handle larger men who have a loose similarity to the Lewis style and who beat him in the amateurs. Your use of Briggs, Grant, and Vitali to demonstrate Lewis's ability on the inside doesn't determine his ability to beat Bowe inside any more or any less.

As to Lewis's durability -he struck me as durable, but I differentiate between that and the chin. I do question Lewis's chin. Bowe's power could dent that chin and not one post from the other side has acknowledged that... so I will. Bowe has a decent chance to find Lewis and put his lights out particulary if Lewis fights aggressively. Bowe is an extremely intelligent brawler when sharp. Lewis physically overwhelmed lesser fighters when he was aggressive but Bowe not only outbrawled Holyfield, he did so tactically.

You assert that Bowe struggled more than Lewis during their primes and in their winning efforts. That doesn't prove much. Bowe struggled most notably against Holyfield; but I suspect that Holyfield at 32 or even 34 would have beaten Lewis. Lewis was stopped twice in his prime -by two guys who I'd bet the house would have been beaten by Bowe. Bowe struggled more than he should have because he chose not to struggle in training camp, but Lewis was rendered horizontal and he was absolutely in shape both times. Bowe fared better albeit against lesser competition but he looked like Riddick Blimp.

Lewis struggled mightily against the extremely durable but one dimensional Mercer. I found Lewis impressive in that one, but he was outjabbed from beginning to end -why? Because he carried his right by his chest and was unable to parry the incoming jab. It is rare indeed that Ray Mercer outjabs anyone.

You conclude with the statement that you believe Lewis should be favored over Bowe due to
the rhythm of their careers and the fighters they were.

... I would to! But you forget that my position favoring Bowe is heavily conditioned. I conceded long ago that Bowe was rarely the force he should have been and could have been. Bowe lacked the discipline to maintain the optimum level of performance that he was capable of. At his best, however, I see him outbrawling Lewis and possessing the skills to outbox Lewis. Manny Steward, who I think deserves most of the credit for Lewis's big wins, would be outstrategized by Futch. All day. I don't see Lewis taking over the fight for the extent of it -Bowe was demonstrably able to take it back when push came to shove.

It is the belief of Stonehands that an inspired, 235 pound Bowe would take a decision the first time... but lose the rematch at 250 pounds and when he came in dehydrated and Futch-less at 230 for the rubber, he'd lose that too. Therein lies my sole concession to the general consensus led by Sergeant Spoon.

...by the way, glad to see you back at ESB.

[Stonehands89]

Bowe and Lewis have something in common here then, people soon wrote off Mason 35-0, Jackson 30-1-0 and Briggs 30-1-0 after Lennox defeated them too.
Absolutely a good observation. People have that tendency to criticize the movers and shakers of the past based on information that came later -and often times the dismissal of the accomplishment is because of the accomplishment itself.

Colonel Jessup from "A Few Good Men" is echoing in my head for some reason.... ["I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it"]

[fists of fury]

Gonzales wasn't thought of that highly, to be fair.

Boxing writers kept asing why is this amatuer king with wins over Bowe and Lewis was giving such sloppy performances as a pro.
Very few were convinced about Gonzales, and it came as no big surprise when Bowe beat him.

[JohnThomas1]

Absolutely a good observation. People have that tendency to criticize the movers and shakers of the past based on information that came later -and often times the dismissal of the accomplishment is because of the accomplishment itself.

Colonel Jessup from "A Few Good Men" is echoing in my head for some reason.... ["I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it"]

Well put mate.

[Ted Spoon]

Sound analysis is reliant on objective facts and valid inferences. Care should be taken with injecting it with subjective opinion and assumptions. You have done that. I made known my dissent because Bowe's skills were being overlooked and the argument against him revolved around a loose -and in my opinion careless- theory about his trembling at the mention of Lewis's name.

You believe that Bowe was intimidated and that would factor into the match-up. I don't -necessarily- see it that way and have chosen instead to give him the benefit of the doubt in order to maximize the integrity of the fantasy match-up.

Gonzalez wasn't even close to Lewis in terms of greatness and that was never asserted. He was offered as an example of 1. Bowe's ability to handle larger men, 2. Bowe's ability to overcome a loss in the amateurs, 3. Bowe's right hand (which has been totally underestimated on this thread), and 4. Bowe's excellent offensive arsenal -to wit, the short punches delivered inside loops.

Simply because Bowe whipped Gonzalez doesn't mean that he would thus and therefore beat Lewis. It simply suggests that Bowe had the tools to handle larger men who have a loose similarity to the Lewis style and who beat him in the amateurs. Your use of Briggs, Grant, and Vitali to demonstrate Lewis's ability on the inside doesn't determine his ability to beat Bowe inside any more or any less.

As to Lewis's durability -he struck me as durable, but I differentiate between that and the chin. I do question Lewis's chin. Bowe's power could dent that chin and not one post from the other side has acknowledged that... so I will. Bowe has a decent chance to find Lewis and put his lights out particulary if Lewis fights aggressively. Bowe is an extremely intelligent brawler when sharp. Lewis physically overwhelmed lesser fighters when he was aggressive but Bowe not only outbrawled Holyfield, he did so tactically.

You assert that Bowe struggled more than Lewis during their primes and in their winning efforts. That doesn't prove much. Bowe struggled most notably against Holyfield; but I suspect that Holyfield at 32 or even 34 would have beaten Lewis. Lewis was stopped twice in his prime -by two guys who I'd bet the house would have been beaten by Bowe. Bowe struggled more than he should have because he chose not to struggle in training camp, but Lewis was rendered horizontal and he was absolutely in shape both times. Bowe fared better albeit against lesser competition but he looked like Riddick Blimp.

Lewis struggled mightily against the extremely durable but one dimensional Mercer. I found Lewis impressive in that one, but he was outjabbed from beginning to end -why? Because he carried his right by his chest and was unable to parry the incoming jab. It is rare indeed that Ray Mercer outjabs anyone.

You conclude with the statement that you believe Lewis should be favored over Bowe due to


... I would to! But you forget that my position favoring Bowe is heavily conditioned. I conceded long ago that Bowe was rarely the force he should have been and could have been. Bowe lacked the discipline to maintain the optimum level of performance that he was capable of. At his best, however, I see him outbrawling Lewis and possessing the skills to outbox Lewis. Manny Steward, who I think deserves most of the credit for Lewis's big wins, would be outstrategized by Futch. All day. I don't see Lewis taking over the fight for the extent of it -Bowe was demonstrably able to take it back when push came to shove.

It is the belief of Stonehands that an inspired, 235 pound Bowe would take a decision the first time... but lose the rematch at 250 pounds and when he came in dehydrated and Futch-less at 230 for the rubber, he'd lose that too. Therein lies my sole concession to the general consensus led by Sergeant Spoon.

...by the way, glad to see you back at ESB.

We have different opinions on the unknown quantities, but it was welcome to hear an elaborated defence on Bowe.

Bruno was a huge puncher, and Mercer was a fiery tough guy -a few niggles, but Ted Spoon agrees to disagree on this. Not too sure whether Futch could have such an effect on Bowe where Lewis is concerned, but that is our stance.

[godking]

Gonzalez was dismissed after Bowe destroyed him. Hide was dismissed after Bowe defeated him. Donald was undefeated. Buster Mathis Jr. was undefeated. Holyfield, who is a great HW champion, regardless of size and regardless of your opinion, and was undefeated. You give Bowe's accomplishments short thrift and ignore the man's obvious skills which were considerably more than "infighting".

You have established yourself as the emoticon king and the god of redundant, single-issue posts. "Bowe can't evade the jab" and my analysis sucks.

Okay, your opinion has been noted, now go back to the lounge before I chase you out of here.Gonzalez Hide Mathis jr ? :roll: Third tier HWS.

And no Bowe did'nt do anything reallywell except infighting.

And if have said nothing which is not true.

Bowe could'nt evade a jab and had little to no defense and in a good hw era only fought one second tier hw and one elite hw.

Those are the facts and matter how many time you mention Gonzalez or Hide it wont change the fact that they where third tier hws.
Bowe is not the god who walked like a man you think he is.


And no idiot who actually dared to claim that Bowe was proficient in defense is going to run anyone out of here

[Stonehands89]

Gonzalez Hide Mathis jr ? :roll: Third tier HWS.

And no Bowe did'nt do anything reallywell except infighting.

And if have said nothing which is not true.

Bowe could'nt evade a jab and had little to no defense and in a good hw era only fought one second tier hw and one elite hw.

Those are the facts and matter how many time you mention Gonzalez or Hide it wont change the fact that they where third tier hws.
Bowe is not the god who walked like a man you think he is.


And no idiot who actually dared to claim that Bowe was proficient in defense is going to run anyone out of here
I don't think you know the definition of 'redundant'. In any event, your mortification has just become my newest hobby.

[mcvey]

Same question as before but now if the fight happened in 1995.

While I liked Bowe to take the fight in 93, I like Lewis in 95.

Lewis was now hitting his prime, he had Steward, and his jab and defense had improved enough that I think he would outpoint Bowe in 95.

Prediction - Lewis UD - 116-112, 116-112, 115-113

Again I am curious to see how the votes go in this and how they go in 93. I suspect Lewis will take both polls, but that the 93 vote will be closer. We'll see.
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I give Lewis 55% to Bowes 45%,because I find him more provenwith more power,Bowe was the best inside fighter Ive seen for a big man ,had a good jab ,decent cross and heart ,but his dedication stank,he just didnt have the discipline to go to the next level that I beleive his talent could have taken him to,he remains ,to some extent a "what might have been".

[DamonD]

Gonzales wasn't thought of that highly, to be fair.

Boxing writers kept asing why is this amatuer king with wins over Bowe and Lewis was giving such sloppy performances as a pro.
Very few were convinced about Gonzales, and it came as no big surprise when Bowe beat him.
Or when the comebacking Witherspoon beat him up a year later.
It definitely was when he quit on his stool against Puritty, though...