Classic Forums Thoughts on Pac-DLH

[Seamus]

Just wanted the thoughts of my esteemed brethen.

Me?

I think it is a jive-ass sham of a fight and have no interest in it. DLH was relevant at some time, but that was a long time ago.

[Calroid]

No interest......I think it is a complete mismatch.......but only time will tell.

[flamengo]

its just a mismatch, which assures ODLH a victory, and opens the door for a bout with Ricky Hatton... A low risk warm up bout... DLH vs Hatton will be announced in 2 weeks. Contracts will already be in place, and the finances will be mammoth. PLEASE QUOTE ME..............

[fists of fury]

I hope Pac kicks his golden arse. I don't dislike Oscar at all, but to me Oscar is purely in it for the money now and nothing more. It's all very cynical from his point of view.

I hope it's competitive, but I just don't know...Oscar is naturally a lot bigger, despite being past his best. Then again, drugs have blurred the lines of what constitutes bigger these days.

[ChrisPontius]

I don't think it's THAT bad a mismatch. I've seen betting odds between +180 and +160 for Pacquiao, in other words, he's no more than a 2:1 underdog. Since when is a 2:1 underdog a "mismatch"?

Let's not forgot, in Hopkins' fight against Pavlik a month ago, Hopkins was a 4:1 underdog, i.e. that was twice the mismatch.

And we all know how that one ended.

[Mendoza]

I hope Pac kicks his golden arse. I don't dislike Oscar at all, but to me Oscar is purely in it for the money now and nothing more. It's all very cynical from his point of view.

I hope it's competitive, but I just don't know...Oscar is naturally a lot bigger, despite being past his best. Then again, drugs have blurred the lines of what constitutes bigger these days.

Pacquiao is one of the few talented action oriented fighters in the sport. He has given the fans their monies worth, and as far as I can tell, ducked no one. I think he has a chance here for two reasons.

1 ) Oscar to me is no longer a full time fighter, who thinks and acts like a fighter. Oscar is a playboy first, a promoter second, and a boxer only when the money is right.

2 ) Styles! Oscar does not like to stand and trade, or be pressured, and Pacquaio can do that. I don't think Ocsar likes it to the body much.

Having said that, I think Oscar's size will be too much here. We’ll see. I hope Ocsar doesn’t hold and play it safe vs a much smaller man to win.

[fists of fury]

I hope Ocsar doesn’t hold and play it safe vs a much smaller man to win.

I don't think he can afford to. The boxing public will come down on him like a house of bricks if he does that.

[flamengo]

I agree with this but I hope that somehow Pac takes it.


At this point of conversation.. the worst mismatch is the bikini top and the curvy tits... Gotta love the Asian gals.... Great pic.

[flamengo]

I don't think it's THAT bad a mismatch. I've seen betting odds between +180 and +160 for Pacquiao, in other words, he's no more than a 2:1 underdog. Since when is a 2:1 underdog a "mismatch"?

Let's not forgot, in Hopkins' fight against Pavlik a month ago, Hopkins was a 4:1 underdog, i.e. that was twice the mismatch.

And we all know how that one ended.
Pontious, betting wise, it may not be considered a mismatch... Logically, I believe it a poors match up.
I can not see DLH being troubled for any reason, other than a prophetically disgraceful oversight.... If it lasts into the 10th.. 12th rounds.. then MP can be graced with the championship goblet. Other than that, I see little else for ODLH to worry about.

[Stonehands89]

Oscar used to love to feast on smaller guys -Leija, Chavez, Paez, Molina... I remember criticizing him quite heavily for this penchant in the 90s. Then he stepped it up and fought Tito, then Shane, then Vargas, Bernard, and on it went ... he started really challenging himself. Let's be honest, though Oscar has been semi-retired since that loss to Trinidad in 1999. That's damn near a decade.

Oscar is chomping at the bit. The size difference is considerable. He is looking down as far as he used to look on the dimuntitive opponents he feasted on when he was an active fighter. It must be nostalgic. Training at Big Bear, where his pro career began, is appropriate. He's a good but not great fighter, now, who's semi-retired, sleeps in silk pajamas, and fights for sh*ts and giggles.

Now look at Manny Pacquaio. Manny is a great fighter -there's no doubt about that -you just don't embarass Barrera, compete like he did to take a disputed draw and decision against an inspired Marquez, and take a trilogy against Morales if you aren't a great fighter. He's in his prime and is deeply inspired. He's fighting for a poor country who has put their hopes and dreams on him... Sure, he's a full 4 inches shorter, yes, and Oscar still has a wicked left hook, and still looks very good against guys like Steve Forbes but Manny is murder inside, hits hard enough to get a WW's attention, and sets a pace that I don't expect a 35 year old De la Hoya to stay with. I don't care how hard the older man trains. Oscar is a tense fighter, he's officially a rich man (and I mean between the ears), a family man and a business man. He's as civilized a fighter as there has ever been. In other words, he doesn't have to fight anymore and knows that he's close to done. How many times does he discuss this in interviews?

Manny is completely focused. He's honed. He also has great agility and flexibility -elasticity even. He's loose and he's having fun in there.

Manny relishes battle. Oscar thinks about his wife.

Freddie Roach may have a secret, or he may be bluffing. I have the feeling that what he knows is that Oscar doesn't have the passion anymore to fight Manny the way you have to in order to tame him. Marquez does, and that's why he will beat Manny if they meet again. But Oscar? Nah. I never liked Oscar against guys who he can't control or who control him. Everyone is hung up on the size difference. I'm not. They look a bit like Duran and Leonard on paper. I see Pacquiao fighting Oscar like Duran did Leonard -but Leonard was sharp and ready and 24 years old. Oscar, well, if he can't hurt Manny early, I think that the smaller man will take over.

Good big men beat good smaller men, but not great smaller men. That's been proven enough to raise eyebrows. How great is Pacquiao? We'll find out tomorrow night.

Pacquiao. TKO late.

[sweet_scientist]

Pac is going to get his head jabbed off from round 1 to round 12.

He'll have a few moments where he'll shake DLH up, but we know how good Oscar's chin is, so it won't mean shit.

Boring ass 9-3 for Oscar.

[mcvey]

Just wanted the thoughts of my esteemed brethen.

Me?

I think it is a jive-ass sham of a fight and have no interest in it. DLH was relevant at some time, but that was a long time ago.
I take Oscar by dec or late stoppage,he isnot what he was ,but still naturally substantially the bigger man.Manny versus Hatton makes more sense to me.

[Flea Man]

I'm pretty certain that DLH will win, but judging on how Forbes managed to mark Oscar up, I'm hoping that Pacman can do more, irk DLH and either win on PTS or cuts.

sadly, I don't think it's going to happen but I'm 100 % behind Pacqiuao.

[Flea Man]

Pac is going to get his head jabbed off from round 1 to round 12.

He'll have a few moments where he'll shake DLH up, but we know how good Oscar's chin is, so it won't mean shit.

Boring ass 9-3 for Oscar.

I'm sure Roach and Pacman would've worked a lot at countering the jab. Hopefully the fight will be more interesting. Won't be totally shocked if it goes down the way you see it. :good

[Minotauro]

I hope Manny ko's Oscar but it doubtful. Oscar took the easy way out fighting a man so much smaller then himself even if he wins it adds little to his legacy he should have fought Margo but he knows he'll lose that. I used to be an Oscar fan by want to see him lose its better for the sport a new superstar will be born and a super fight with Hatton, Mayweather or even Marquez 3 can be made

[ChrisPontius]

He's a good but not great fighter, now, who's semi-retired, sleeps in silk pajamas, and fights for sh*ts and giggles.


:lol:

I will be rooting for the smaller man, and i think many people under-estimate his chances, but i'm not as sure on this one as you are.

[dpw417]

I like Manny in this fight.
When the fight was first announced, I've felt there were serious stylistic problems Manny could present Oscar. Despite the size disparity, Oscar is not what you would call a 'muscle' guy...He doesn't really look to impose his strength during a fight. Against a lighter opponent in Forbes, Oscar would use his forearm or shoulder to bump Forbes into range, if Forbes tried to crowd his left hand. But that was basically it...

With his speed I feel Manny can tactically manuever to his right (into DLH's power hand) or to his left (away from the power hand)...How and why would Manny want to move to his right near DLH's jab and hook? While I believe he will actually move predominantly to his left (will explain later) he will need to set a pace that DLH will have to react to in order to tire him for the later rounds, and he doesn't want to follow a set pattern especially early in the fight. Why does he go into the fire? Remember the old axiom of going into a left hook, instead of away from it? If Pac can use his right jab and hook by attacking DLH on a wider right angle (using footspeed), he can force DLH to use the left for defense, something he hates to do!!! During the Mayweather years, Oscar loves to use his right for parrying and blocking, and attacking with his left. This is Oscar's MO, it's how he likes to proceed...Nacho is at the helm now, but can DLH change after all these years?

This fight is predicated on spacing...when Manny gets inside, he will have to capitalize. If he lands one punch, he will need to land three or four. Speaking of when Oscar uses his right to block or parry, he will block from the outside in (his right elbow is away from his body), where a Mayweather will block from the inside out...Difference? Plenty! When parrying Pac's straight lefts, Oscar's right arm will be coming down and across his own body, if Pac is pressing hard, Oscar's elbows will be all over the place, presenting holes in his defense, also in some of these instances, Oscar backs up in a straight line.

In the Forbes fight, Oscar was uncomfortable when crowded on his left side, he would at times hesitate slightly, and then fire a wide hook upstairs, this is what Manny needs and wants to press the pace. Pacquiao's workarate and reactions are honed by facing the best fighters in the world...DLH is a part time fighter now, and has been for some time. DLH will try to anticipate Pac's punches by reading his footwork, and firing while Pac is firing with his straight left, with a counter left hook...Oscar's left uppercut, off the hook, is a vicious punch...Manny will definitely need to account for DLH's left hand in the clinches...Being the bigger fighter, he has the firepower to turn the fight in the blink of an eye. When Oscar bounces on his toes, he is setting himself, and finding his rhythm.

I believe Oscar will win 3 of the first 4 rounds...Manny will need to limit being hit only with single punches, if he is hit, he needs to create space between himself and a follow up combination. If Pac has been capable of producing a fast pace, IMO he starts to take over at the mid point of the fight, he at this time will press by attacking Oscar by circling to his left more and more as the fight proceeds...this way Oscar will be out of positon to fire his left hook...I don't know if Manny can accumulate enough punishment on DLH to stop him, but he will be winning in a dominant fashion near the end of 12 rounds.
Manny Pacquiao by decision.

GO MANNY!

[DINAMITA]

Oscar used to love to feast on smaller guys -Leija, Chavez, Paez, Molina... I remember criticizing him quite heavily for this penchant in the 90s. Then he stepped it up and fought Tito, then Shane, then Vargas, Bernard, and on it went ... he started really challenging himself. Let's be honest, though Oscar has been semi-retired since that loss to Trinidad in 1999. That's damn near a decade.

Oscar is chomping at the bit. The size difference is considerable. He is looking down as far as he used to look on the dimuntitive opponents he feasted on when he was an active fighter. It must be nostalgic. Training at Big Bear, where his pro career began, is appropriate. He's a good but not great fighter, now, who's semi-retired, sleeps in silk pajamas, and fights for sh*ts and giggles.

Now look at Manny Pacquaio. Manny is a great fighter -there's no doubt about that -you just don't embarass Barrera, compete like he did to take a disputed draw and decision against an inspired Marquez, and take a trilogy against Morales if you aren't a great fighter. He's in his prime and is deeply inspired. He's fighting for a poor country who has put their hopes and dreams on him... Sure, he's a full 4 inches shorter, yes, and Oscar still has a wicked left hook, and still looks very good against guys like Steve Forbes but Manny is murder inside, hits hard enough to get a WW's attention, and sets a pace that I don't expect a 35 year old De la Hoya to stay with. I don't care how hard the older man trains. Oscar is a tense fighter, he's officially a rich man (and I mean between the ears), a family man and a business man. He's as civilized a fighter as there has ever been. In other words, he doesn't have to fight anymore and knows that he's close to done. How many times does he discuss this in interviews?

Manny is completely focused. He's honed. He also has great agility and flexibility -elasticity even. He's loose and he's having fun in there.

Manny relishes battle. Oscar thinks about his wife.

Freddie Roach may have a secret, or he may be bluffing. I have the feeling that what he knows is that Oscar doesn't have the passion anymore to fight Manny the way you have to in order to tame him. Marquez does, and that's why he will beat Manny if they meet again. But Oscar? Nah. I never liked Oscar against guys who he can't control or who control him. Everyone is hung up on the size difference. I'm not. They look a bit like Duran and Leonard on paper. I see Pacquiao fighting Oscar like Duran did Leonard -but Leonard was sharp and ready and 24 years old. Oscar, well, if he can't hurt Manny early, I think that the smaller man will take over.

Good big men beat good smaller men, but not great smaller men. That's been proven enough to raise eyebrows. How great is Pacquiao? We'll find out tomorrow night.

Pacquiao. TKO late.

This is a magnificent post. I am on my knees praying that you are right!!!!

[Stonehands89]

:lol:

I will be rooting for the smaller man, and i think many people under-estimate his chances, but i'm not as sure on this one as you are.
Well, you probably sensed that my enthusiasm is a wobbly front for my deep concern. But that's boxing. Anything can happen, but sometimes the great ones pull a rabbit out of a hat. This would be one helluva win if Manny beats him.

[Maxmomer]

Pac-man, KO-1.

[Robbi]

I'm rooting for De La Hoya against Pacquaio. Excluding Pacman's southpaw stance and quick hands, De La Hoya has a history of eating up smaller aggressive fighters. He hates having to play the role of the aggressor. Whitaker, Mosley I, Hopkins, and Mayweather were all fights where De La Hoya had to march forward. Even the smaller Forbes' style wasn't exactly made to order for him.

Pacquaio's speed and southpaw stance will be the main problems for De La Hoya. Pacquiao's high workrate might well be his downfall rather than work to his advantage. It depends how he takes De La Hoya's punches. He's going to get hit in this fight as his defense is anything but bombproof, although it has improved recently.

IMO, De La Hoya's speed is being seriously underrated going into this fight. It wouldn't suprise me if the speed advantage Pacquaio has is very slight.


De La Hoya inside 6 rounds.

[zadfrak]

One thing about the bigger fighters in these matchups are the general assumptions about the bigger guy in there. Like he always has all the advantages.

They also give up some important ones like speed. Mobility. And usually the lighter the weight, the more combinations they throw. And the big guy is also a bigger target in there as well. Plus, they seem to have problems catching the smaller elusive guy in there. And get caught posing.

I think if Manny fights smart with those legs and turns him, he can pepper the guy for the win. A southpaw has a shot. What a win it'd be for a guy that started at 106.

[Quick Cash]

I think the weight will affect Oscar more adversely than Pacquiao. Pacquiao fights at around the weight anyway so I expect his normal attributes, that is, the speed and explosiveness he displayed against Diaz in his last title-winning performance, to be intact. De La Hoya, though he looked fit at yesterday's weigh-in, must have paid a heavy toll to cut back down to 145 pounds. To me, whatever extra weight De La Hoya puts back on is irrelevant; he will find himself well-spent late in the fight. He has a window of opportunity early, but the way Pacquiao will fight, I don't think he can capitalize on that.

I predict Manny will not be as aggressive as we are all used to seeing him, instead boxing at a range; but I'm not absolutely positive, and that will reveal itself early enough in the first few rounds. If he does use distance, I think there is a good chance he can outspeed the Golden Boy to take a decision. De La Hoya's always been sneakier on the backfoot than on the front.

Manny on points and Oscar by stoppage both are reasonable, the former being slightly more plausible in my opinion.

[janitor]

I dont think Paquiao can win this, but if he somehow does then imortality is his.

[Unforgiven]

I want Pac to win, and I think he has a decent chance.
Win, lose or draw I admire his old achool mentality in coming up to fight a significantly bigger man. And I'm sure he'll be taking the fight to Oscar.
Most of this modern "weight jumping" and belt-collecting stuff is often a lot of hype and superficial achievements, but Manny Pac is genuinely taking a leap up and testing himself in a higher class.

[BOGART]

I keep wanting to say Pacquaio will win but I just can't do it. I'm actually looking foward to this fight while the Jones-Calzaghe fight did nothing for me and it was one of the rare big ppv's that I passed on but this one is different. I think this will end up being a good fight and has an ok undercard.

For the fight itself I think its a lot closer than some on this thread do. DLH has a size, style, and big fight experience advantage but Pacquaio will have a speed and stamina advantage and is at/near his peak while DLH is years past his. Than in their last fights DLH looked less than stellar and Pacquaio has never looked better. I think the Pacquaio from the Diaz fight could beat the DLH from the Forbes fight. I see Pacquaio with some good moments early. His speed and aggression will give DLH trouble but eventualy the overall pressure from DLH's size and power will wear the smaller man down. Unless DLH gasses late like he has than he'll own the late rounds and probably stop Pacquaio late. DLH by late round stoppage in a good fight.

[Arriba]

I'll be rooting for Pacquiao to win this one but when you look at the fact that Oscar has taken punches from guys like Tito, Mosley, Vargas, Quartay,Hopkins and such and such...I don't see where Pac can hurt him.

Manny Pac needs to win for the good of boxing so that's where my heart lies.

[Chinxkid]

Pacquiao by tko. I think he's got too much engine for the aging DeLaHoya. He will be comin', and if I'm correct comin' on angles. He'll get in often enough to hurt DLH and turn the momentum and the fight his way. Oscar's best bet is to catch Manny on the way in, if he does, he could take him out, but I don't see it. Stonehands, you made a referrence to Freddie Roach knowing something, having something on Oscar, and of course he would. And what I've heard from someone who knows Roach is that it's arthritis in DLH's arms that's the secret. Now, how he'll use this against him is the question. Trainers on this board might have an answer. One of the first fights in a long time I've liked enough to buy, I'll be watching. Like Oscar, always did, never understood why the Mexican community didn't take to him. Too rich? Too famous? Too good looking? None of those ever made sense to me. But Manny is something else, I love his attitude, his smiling ferocity, his warrior without malice temperment. Either way I'm lookin' for a great fight.

[Seamus]

One interesting note. Oscar looks flat emaciated at the weigh-in, his features sunken and gaunt. Anyone who's spent time around the sport knows the danger of this weight loss and gain yo-yo. Even if he rehydrates and gets his weight back into rational territory it can be very draining, leaving him sluggish. Doesn't always happen, but it does happen.

[red cobra]

I'm pissed that Pac, one of my favorite fighters today, is taking a virtually no-win type of fight. I sure hope he wins, however.

[john garfield]

Call-to-mind the U.S. hockey team -- and all of America -- leaping up 'n' down -- euphoric after humbling the unbeatable Soviet juggernaut in the '80 Olympics. That'll be polite compared to the Phillipines sinking into the Pacific under Pac's partying countrymen, if he pulls off the upset.

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[Russell]

I heard a theory in general that Hoya might take it easy, relatively speaking, on Pacquaio as to not be seen as a "bully" ruining his credibility and fan base.

And really, controversial decisions in DLH's career have always garnered more interest then the one sided fights, so who knows. I definitely wouldn't put it past Hoya not trying 100% if only for 5 or 6 rounds... But with DLH's nearly career long trend of gassing down the stretch that might be a tactially idiotic move.

I don't know, I've got a very gut feeling this isn't as cut and dry a match as it's being painted to be. Pacquaio's size is being brought up without any perspective... He's an Eastern fighter, notorious weight drainers in their own rights. Not to mention he began his career when he was... 14 years old I believe? Hardly a mature fighter at the earlier weights.

And David Diaz himself started his career as a welterweight, fighting above 140 pounds and there abouts. Huge fighter. You could really paint his last fight against Diaz as his first fight at welterweight or at the very least junior welterweight.

Eh. We'll see.

[Russell]

Also, the points on Hoya's appetite for fighting are appropriate. He's never been a "warrior" in there. I remember Vargas really roughing him up and he didn't like it one damned bit. Half a decade later with a more and more inactive Hoya who's lined his pockets and taken more to promoting then fighting...

Don't know. Tenacity and willpower can do a lot against a guy without the stomach for the fight business anymore. It isn't called the hardest game for nothing.

[Robbi]

De La Hoya is finished. I knew the speed of Pacquaio would give him problems, and the southpaw stance. De La Hoya's never had a right hand, and thats what he needed tonight to have any kind of success. He just couldn't land the left hook at all. Pacman fought a very disciplined fight throughout. He turned De La Hoya all night, peppered him, even at times backing him up into a defensive shell.

De La Hoya looked and perfomed like a shot fighter. And he was robotic as he's ever been tonight.

[SugarRay]

Oscar used to love to feast on smaller guys -Leija, Chavez, Paez, Molina... I remember criticizing him quite heavily for this penchant in the 90s. Then he stepped it up and fought Tito, then Shane, then Vargas, Bernard, and on it went ... he started really challenging himself. Let's be honest, though Oscar has been semi-retired since that loss to Trinidad in 1999. That's damn near a decade.

Oscar is chomping at the bit. The size difference is considerable. He is looking down as far as he used to look on the dimuntitive opponents he feasted on when he was an active fighter. It must be nostalgic. Training at Big Bear, where his pro career began, is appropriate. He's a good but not great fighter, now, who's semi-retired, sleeps in silk pajamas, and fights for sh*ts and giggles.

Now look at Manny Pacquaio. Manny is a great fighter -there's no doubt about that -you just don't embarass Barrera, compete like he did to take a disputed draw and decision against an inspired Marquez, and take a trilogy against Morales if you aren't a great fighter. He's in his prime and is deeply inspired. He's fighting for a poor country who has put their hopes and dreams on him... Sure, he's a full 4 inches shorter, yes, and Oscar still has a wicked left hook, and still looks very good against guys like Steve Forbes but Manny is murder inside, hits hard enough to get a WW's attention, and sets a pace that I don't expect a 35 year old De la Hoya to stay with. I don't care how hard the older man trains. Oscar is a tense fighter, he's officially a rich man (and I mean between the ears), a family man and a business man. He's as civilized a fighter as there has ever been. In other words, he doesn't have to fight anymore and knows that he's close to done. How many times does he discuss this in interviews?

Manny is completely focused. He's honed. He also has great agility and flexibility -elasticity even. He's loose and he's having fun in there.

Manny relishes battle. Oscar thinks about his wife.

Freddie Roach may have a secret, or he may be bluffing. I have the feeling that what he knows is that Oscar doesn't have the passion anymore to fight Manny the way you have to in order to tame him. Marquez does, and that's why he will beat Manny if they meet again. But Oscar? Nah. I never liked Oscar against guys who he can't control or who control him. Everyone is hung up on the size difference. I'm not. They look a bit like Duran and Leonard on paper. I see Pacquiao fighting Oscar like Duran did Leonard -but Leonard was sharp and ready and 24 years old. Oscar, well, if he can't hurt Manny early, I think that the smaller man will take over.

Good big men beat good smaller men, but not great smaller men. That's been proven enough to raise eyebrows. How great is Pacquiao? We'll find out tomorrow night.

Pacquiao. TKO late.
Impressed! I thought what you wrote but, was not bold enough to say Pac via TKO.
How do you think Pac would have went against a younger hungrier Oscar?

[Flea Man]

Well, it was proved to be a mismatch. Great win for Manny, whatever shape Oscar was in the simple fact is that he was supposed to be too strong for Manny even at 147.

DLH stopped only once by B-Hop at MW. Pac put a worse beating on him than that. Of course, DLH is past it, but the simple fact is most people were saying Oscar, and, of course, 'a good big guy always beats a good little guy' lol.

Even if Oscar was shot, that was a vicious drubbing. DLH never won a single round and Manny did the one thing he wasn't supposed to be able to do, stop Oscar. It is still a great victory, no doubt.

[aj415]

Excellent call dpw417, Chinxd, and Stonehands89.

[sweet_scientist]

Pac is going to get his head jabbed off from round 1 to round 12.

He'll have a few moments where he'll shake DLH up, but we know how good Oscar's chin is, so it won't mean shit.

Boring ass 9-3 for Oscar.

Spot on as usual :lol:

I haven't seen the fight so I can't comment, but all I can say is that if DLH was at the same level he was against Floyd, I am utterly shocked with this outcome.

If DLH deteriorated quite a bit, then this outcome is understandable.

I think I'll find the fact that DLH 'retired' pretty hard to swallow though, irrespective of how one-sided the fight was.

Congrats to all the boys that called it correctly by the way.

[sweet_scientist]

I'm sure Roach and Pacman would've worked a lot at countering the jab. Hopefully the fight will be more interesting. Won't be totally shocked if it goes down the way you see it. :good

Looks like they found the antidote to the jab all right, and then some!

[JohnThomas1]

Oscar used to love to feast on smaller guys -Leija, Chavez, Paez, Molina... I remember criticizing him quite heavily for this penchant in the 90s. Then he stepped it up and fought Tito, then Shane, then Vargas, Bernard, and on it went ... he started really challenging himself. Let's be honest, though Oscar has been semi-retired since that loss to Trinidad in 1999. That's damn near a decade.

Oscar is chomping at the bit. The size difference is considerable. He is looking down as far as he used to look on the dimuntitive opponents he feasted on when he was an active fighter. It must be nostalgic. Training at Big Bear, where his pro career began, is appropriate. He's a good but not great fighter, now, who's semi-retired, sleeps in silk pajamas, and fights for sh*ts and giggles.

Now look at Manny Pacquaio. Manny is a great fighter -there's no doubt about that -you just don't embarass Barrera, compete like he did to take a disputed draw and decision against an inspired Marquez, and take a trilogy against Morales if you aren't a great fighter. He's in his prime and is deeply inspired. He's fighting for a poor country who has put their hopes and dreams on him... Sure, he's a full 4 inches shorter, yes, and Oscar still has a wicked left hook, and still looks very good against guys like Steve Forbes but Manny is murder inside, hits hard enough to get a WW's attention, and sets a pace that I don't expect a 35 year old De la Hoya to stay with. I don't care how hard the older man trains. Oscar is a tense fighter, he's officially a rich man (and I mean between the ears), a family man and a business man. He's as civilized a fighter as there has ever been. In other words, he doesn't have to fight anymore and knows that he's close to done. How many times does he discuss this in interviews?

Manny is completely focused. He's honed. He also has great agility and flexibility -elasticity even. He's loose and he's having fun in there.

Manny relishes battle. Oscar thinks about his wife.

Freddie Roach may have a secret, or he may be bluffing. I have the feeling that what he knows is that Oscar doesn't have the passion anymore to fight Manny the way you have to in order to tame him. Marquez does, and that's why he will beat Manny if they meet again. But Oscar? Nah. I never liked Oscar against guys who he can't control or who control him. Everyone is hung up on the size difference. I'm not. They look a bit like Duran and Leonard on paper. I see Pacquiao fighting Oscar like Duran did Leonard -but Leonard was sharp and ready and 24 years old. Oscar, well, if he can't hurt Manny early, I think that the smaller man will take over.

Good big men beat good smaller men, but not great smaller men. That's been proven enough to raise eyebrows. How great is Pacquiao? We'll find out tomorrow night.

Pacquiao. TKO late.

What a fantastic and confident prediction!

I tip my hat to the man with the crystal ball

:happy

[cuchulain]

Pontious, betting wise, it may not be considered a mismatch... Logically, I believe it a poors match up.
I can not see DLH being troubled for any reason, other than a prophetically disgraceful oversight.... If it lasts into the 10th.. 12th rounds.. then MP can be graced with the championship goblet. Other than that, I see little else for ODLH to worry about.

Pac is going to get his head jabbed off from round 1 to round 12.

He'll have a few moments where he'll shake DLH up, but we know how good Oscar's chin is, so it won't mean shit.

Boring ass 9-3 for Oscar.

I'm rooting for De La Hoya against Pacquaio. Excluding Pacman's southpaw stance and quick hands, De La Hoya has a history of eating up smaller aggressive fighters. He hates having to play the role of the aggressor. Whitaker, Mosley I, Hopkins, and Mayweather were all fights where De La Hoya had to march forward. Even the smaller Forbes' style wasn't exactly made to order for him.

Pacquaio's speed and southpaw stance will be the main problems for De La Hoya. Pacquiao's high workrate might well be his downfall rather than work to his advantage. It depends how he takes De La Hoya's punches. He's going to get hit in this fight as his defense is anything but bombproof, although it has improved recently.

IMO, De La Hoya's speed is being seriously underrated going into this fight. It wouldn't suprise me if the speed advantage Pacquaio has is very slight.


De La Hoya inside 6 rounds.

No interest......I think it is a complete mismatch.......but only time will tell.

its just a mismatch, which assures ODLH a victory, and opens the door for a bout with Ricky Hatton... A low risk warm up bout... DLH vs Hatton will be announced in 2 weeks. Contracts will already be in place, and the finances will be mammoth. PLEASE QUOTE ME..............


Really ?

[daz52]

its just a mismatch, which assures ODLH a victory, and opens the door for a bout with Ricky Hatton... A low risk warm up bout... DLH vs Hatton will be announced in 2 weeks. Contracts will already be in place, and the finances will be mammoth. PLEASE QUOTE ME..............




Well jeez i wasnt going to but since you insisted, ok

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[Calroid]

:verysadWow!!!

I've nothing to say but I never saw that coming at all.

I'm humbled to the MAX.

Congrats to the PACMAN

Complete and utter domination......

Nothing but respect.

P.S It was a complete mismatch......but not in the way that I was thinking :verysad

[sweet_scientist]

Just watched the fight.

Simply an outstanding performance by Pacquiao. Pure perfection. He did everything right and kudos to him, he deserves all the credit for taking this fight and accomplishing what he did.

That said, DLH looked like a pinata from about the fourth round on. His legs were indeed gone and he could not press forward on his left at all. Looked like a revolving statue with Manny moving around him, chiseling away at his masterpiece.

I'm a little disappointed in DLH from the perspective of the lack of pride that he showed. He simply went into survival mode and stopped trying to throw punches, which was rather cowardly I felt.

When I think of greats in the past when they've been shot, more often than not they have at least TRIED to make something happen, despite being done. DLH didn't show much heart here. He folded with a wimper, and really, it tarnishes his legacy for me a little. Just a little though, because obviously he's through.

As for Pac, I'm not sure he beats Hatton and he'd definitely be up against it if he fought the cream of the welterweight division, but I think he should try for Hatton and if that fails, take on Marquez again at lightweight.

[mcvey]

Just wanted the thoughts of my esteemed brethen.

Me?

I think it is a jive-ass sham of a fight and have no interest in it. DLH was relevant at some time, but that was a long time ago.
Well I got it wrong!Alarm bells started to faintly ring when I saw Manny's condition at the weigh in ,but I assured myself Oscar had enough left to pull it out,pass me that CROW!

[My dinner with Conteh]

What the fuck's CROW?

[My dinner with Conteh]

De La Hoya is finished. I knew the speed of Pacquaio would give him problems, and the southpaw stance.


Typical. You're acting like you got the prediction right. :lol:

[Minotauro]

Oscar used to love to feast on smaller guys -Leija, Chavez, Paez, Molina... I remember criticizing him quite heavily for this penchant in the 90s. Then he stepped it up and fought Tito, then Shane, then Vargas, Bernard, and on it went ... he started really challenging himself. Let's be honest, though Oscar has been semi-retired since that loss to Trinidad in 1999. That's damn near a decade.

Oscar is chomping at the bit. The size difference is considerable. He is looking down as far as he used to look on the dimuntitive opponents he feasted on when he was an active fighter. It must be nostalgic. Training at Big Bear, where his pro career began, is appropriate. He's a good but not great fighter, now, who's semi-retired, sleeps in silk pajamas, and fights for sh*ts and giggles.

Now look at Manny Pacquaio. Manny is a great fighter -there's no doubt about that -you just don't embarass Barrera, compete like he did to take a disputed draw and decision against an inspired Marquez, and take a trilogy against Morales if you aren't a great fighter. He's in his prime and is deeply inspired. He's fighting for a poor country who has put their hopes and dreams on him... Sure, he's a full 4 inches shorter, yes, and Oscar still has a wicked left hook, and still looks very good against guys like Steve Forbes but Manny is murder inside, hits hard enough to get a WW's attention, and sets a pace that I don't expect a 35 year old De la Hoya to stay with. I don't care how hard the older man trains. Oscar is a tense fighter, he's officially a rich man (and I mean between the ears), a family man and a business man. He's as civilized a fighter as there has ever been. In other words, he doesn't have to fight anymore and knows that he's close to done. How many times does he discuss this in interviews?

Manny is completely focused. He's honed. He also has great agility and flexibility -elasticity even. He's loose and he's having fun in there.

Manny relishes battle. Oscar thinks about his wife.

Freddie Roach may have a secret, or he may be bluffing. I have the feeling that what he knows is that Oscar doesn't have the passion anymore to fight Manny the way you have to in order to tame him. Marquez does, and that's why he will beat Manny if they meet again. But Oscar? Nah. I never liked Oscar against guys who he can't control or who control him. Everyone is hung up on the size difference. I'm not. They look a bit like Duran and Leonard on paper. I see Pacquiao fighting Oscar like Duran did Leonard -but Leonard was sharp and ready and 24 years old. Oscar, well, if he can't hurt Manny early, I think that the smaller man will take over.

Good big men beat good smaller men, but not great smaller men. That's been proven enough to raise eyebrows. How great is Pacquiao? We'll find out tomorrow night.

Pacquiao. TKO late.

:bowdown

[My dinner with Conteh]

Oscar used to love to feast on smaller guys -Leija, Chavez, Paez, Molina... I remember criticizing him quite heavily for this penchant in the 90s. Then he stepped it up and fought Tito, then Shane, then Vargas, Bernard, and on it went ... he started really challenging himself. Let's be honest, though Oscar has been semi-retired since that loss to Trinidad in 1999. That's damn near a decade.

Oscar is chomping at the bit. The size difference is considerable. He is looking down as far as he used to look on the dimuntitive opponents he feasted on when he was an active fighter. It must be nostalgic. Training at Big Bear, where his pro career began, is appropriate. He's a good but not great fighter, now, who's semi-retired, sleeps in silk pajamas, and fights for sh*ts and giggles.

Now look at Manny Pacquaio. Manny is a great fighter -there's no doubt about that -you just don't embarass Barrera, compete like he did to take a disputed draw and decision against an inspired Marquez, and take a trilogy against Morales if you aren't a great fighter. He's in his prime and is deeply inspired. He's fighting for a poor country who has put their hopes and dreams on him... Sure, he's a full 4 inches shorter, yes, and Oscar still has a wicked left hook, and still looks very good against guys like Steve Forbes but Manny is murder inside, hits hard enough to get a WW's attention, and sets a pace that I don't expect a 35 year old De la Hoya to stay with. I don't care how hard the older man trains. Oscar is a tense fighter, he's officially a rich man (and I mean between the ears), a family man and a business man. He's as civilized a fighter as there has ever been. In other words, he doesn't have to fight anymore and knows that he's close to done. How many times does he discuss this in interviews?

Manny is completely focused. He's honed. He also has great agility and flexibility -elasticity even. He's loose and he's having fun in there.

Manny relishes battle. Oscar thinks about his wife.

Freddie Roach may have a secret, or he may be bluffing. I have the feeling that what he knows is that Oscar doesn't have the passion anymore to fight Manny the way you have to in order to tame him. Marquez does, and that's why he will beat Manny if they meet again. But Oscar? Nah. I never liked Oscar against guys who he can't control or who control him. Everyone is hung up on the size difference. I'm not. They look a bit like Duran and Leonard on paper. I see Pacquiao fighting Oscar like Duran did Leonard -but Leonard was sharp and ready and 24 years old. Oscar, well, if he can't hurt Manny early, I think that the smaller man will take over.

Good big men beat good smaller men, but not great smaller men. That's been proven enough to raise eyebrows. How great is Pacquiao? We'll find out tomorrow night.

Pacquiao. TKO late.


Absolutely excellent. Well done sir.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Really ?


Come on mate. Nothing up with those posters who go the prediction wrong. The only one that needs pulling up on it is that Flamengo.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Well, he said that Manny´s southpaw stance and speed would give DLH problems, just that Oscar would overcome them.

Well, I´m a bit stunned. After seeing the weigh-in pics yesterday I put some money on Pac - having put some money on Oscar two weeks before - because those pics took away my confidence in Oscar. I still thought DLH would win though. Great win! Now Manny is up there with the best of his generation or even on top of them.


That's the same with virtually any fighter with that stance, who's stepping up a few weights though. He then goes on to say the "speed advantage will be very slight". :huh


It's the 'tone' of the post. "I knew..." is basically how he starts it.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Well, to me it sounded different. Sometimes we read what we want to read ;)


Some people can't grasp 'tone' as others can. :good

He's done it before with a big fight a few months ago: "I said that would happen" when he never, really.

[Carlos Primera]

Oscar used to love to feast on smaller guys -Leija, Chavez, Paez, Molina... I remember criticizing him quite heavily for this penchant in the 90s. Then he stepped it up and fought Tito, then Shane, then Vargas, Bernard, and on it went ... he started really challenging himself. Let's be honest, though Oscar has been semi-retired since that loss to Trinidad in 1999. That's damn near a decade.

Oscar is chomping at the bit. The size difference is considerable. He is looking down as far as he used to look on the dimuntitive opponents he feasted on when he was an active fighter. It must be nostalgic. Training at Big Bear, where his pro career began, is appropriate. He's a good but not great fighter, now, who's semi-retired, sleeps in silk pajamas, and fights for sh*ts and giggles.

Now look at Manny Pacquaio. Manny is a great fighter -there's no doubt about that -you just don't embarass Barrera, compete like he did to take a disputed draw and decision against an inspired Marquez, and take a trilogy against Morales if you aren't a great fighter. He's in his prime and is deeply inspired. He's fighting for a poor country who has put their hopes and dreams on him... Sure, he's a full 4 inches shorter, yes, and Oscar still has a wicked left hook, and still looks very good against guys like Steve Forbes but Manny is murder inside, hits hard enough to get a WW's attention, and sets a pace that I don't expect a 35 year old De la Hoya to stay with. I don't care how hard the older man trains. Oscar is a tense fighter, he's officially a rich man (and I mean between the ears), a family man and a business man. He's as civilized a fighter as there has ever been. In other words, he doesn't have to fight anymore and knows that he's close to done. How many times does he discuss this in interviews?

Manny is completely focused. He's honed. He also has great agility and flexibility -elasticity even. He's loose and he's having fun in there.

Manny relishes battle. Oscar thinks about his wife.

Freddie Roach may have a secret, or he may be bluffing. I have the feeling that what he knows is that Oscar doesn't have the passion anymore to fight Manny the way you have to in order to tame him. Marquez does, and that's why he will beat Manny if they meet again. But Oscar? Nah. I never liked Oscar against guys who he can't control or who control him. Everyone is hung up on the size difference. I'm not. They look a bit like Duran and Leonard on paper. I see Pacquiao fighting Oscar like Duran did Leonard -but Leonard was sharp and ready and 24 years old. Oscar, well, if he can't hurt Manny early, I think that the smaller man will take over.

Good big men beat good smaller men, but not great smaller men. That's been proven enough to raise eyebrows. How great is Pacquiao? We'll find out tomorrow night.

Pacquiao. TKO late.
:good
called to atee.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Well, maybe. English isn´t my mother tongue so this is possible.


No worries. One of my great bugbears is people trying to get some credit when getting a prediction wrong- there was a classic example. The sentence should really have started with "well, I didn't expect that" with a mention of the speed further down the line, perhaps, instead of jumping straightaway in what he "knew". However he 'really' said the speed wasn't a significant factor.

[Carlos Primera]

Oscar used to love to feast on smaller guys -Leija, Chavez, Paez, Molina... I remember criticizing him quite heavily for this penchant in the 90s. Then he stepped it up and fought Tito, then Shane, then Vargas, Bernard, and on it went ... he started really challenging himself. Let's be honest, though Oscar has been semi-retired since that loss to Trinidad in 1999. That's damn near a decade.

Oscar is chomping at the bit. The size difference is considerable. He is looking down as far as he used to look on the dimuntitive opponents he feasted on when he was an active fighter. It must be nostalgic. Training at Big Bear, where his pro career began, is appropriate. He's a good but not great fighter, now, who's semi-retired, sleeps in silk pajamas, and fights for sh*ts and giggles.

Now look at Manny Pacquaio. Manny is a great fighter -there's no doubt about that -you just don't embarass Barrera, compete like he did to take a disputed draw and decision against an inspired Marquez, and take a trilogy against Morales if you aren't a great fighter. He's in his prime and is deeply inspired. He's fighting for a poor country who has put their hopes and dreams on him... Sure, he's a full 4 inches shorter, yes, and Oscar still has a wicked left hook, and still looks very good against guys like Steve Forbes but Manny is murder inside, hits hard enough to get a WW's attention, and sets a pace that I don't expect a 35 year old De la Hoya to stay with. I don't care how hard the older man trains. Oscar is a tense fighter, he's officially a rich man (and I mean between the ears), a family man and a business man. He's as civilized a fighter as there has ever been. In other words, he doesn't have to fight anymore and knows that he's close to done. How many times does he discuss this in interviews?

Manny is completely focused. He's honed. He also has great agility and flexibility -elasticity even. He's loose and he's having fun in there.

Manny relishes battle. Oscar thinks about his wife.

Freddie Roach may have a secret, or he may be bluffing. I have the feeling that what he knows is that Oscar doesn't have the passion anymore to fight Manny the way you have to in order to tame him. Marquez does, and that's why he will beat Manny if they meet again. But Oscar? Nah. I never liked Oscar against guys who he can't control or who control him. Everyone is hung up on the size difference. I'm not. They look a bit like Duran and Leonard on paper. I see Pacquiao fighting Oscar like Duran did Leonard -but Leonard was sharp and ready and 24 years old. Oscar, well, if he can't hurt Manny early, I think that the smaller man will take over.

Good big men beat good smaller men, but not great smaller men. That's been proven enough to raise eyebrows. How great is Pacquiao? We'll find out tomorrow night.

Pacquiao. TKO late.
:good
called to a tee.

[JohnThomas1]

Absolutely excellent. Well done sir.

Against the odds as well as the strong trend of the thread Stone comes thru. He even went to great (and rather accurate) lengths with the why's and how's.

One of the best predictions i have seen in here, possibly the best.

[Quick Cash]

I think the weight will affect Oscar more adversely than Pacquiao. Pacquiao fights at around the weight anyway so I expect his normal attributes, that is, the speed and explosiveness he displayed against Diaz in his last title-winning performance, to be intact. De La Hoya, though he looked fit at yesterday's weigh-in, must have paid a heavy toll to cut back down to 145 pounds. To me, whatever extra weight De La Hoya puts back on is irrelevant; he will find himself well-spent late in the fight. He has a window of opportunity early, but the way Pacquiao will fight, I don't think he can capitalize on that.

I predict Manny will not be as aggressive as we are all used to seeing him, instead boxing at a range; but I'm not absolutely positive, and that will reveal itself early enough in the first few rounds. If he does use distance, I think there is a good chance he can outspeed the Golden Boy to take a decision. De La Hoya's always been sneakier on the backfoot than on the front.

Manny on points and Oscar by stoppage both are reasonable, the former being slightly more plausible in my opinion.

Well, I was wrong about the outcome. I consider my post to be 70% accurate though.

Kudos to the Pac-man for mixing great strategy with great tenacity. I blame Oscar for mucking up my prediction. Who would have thought that he'd quit? I may not have envisioned the beating he got from Pacquiao, but I imagined he was made of sterner stuff than what he showed this day-- shot or not.

[Rebel-INS]

I expected either a pacman points win or a 4 or 5 round DLH ko. Completely shocked, but very happy at the result.

[Chinxkid]

One interesting note. Oscar looks flat emaciated at the weigh-in, his features sunken and gaunt. Anyone who's spent time around the sport knows the danger of this weight loss and gain yo-yo. Even if he rehydrates and gets his weight back into rational territory it can be very draining, leaving him sluggish. Doesn't always happen, but it does happen.

This was the deciding factor if there was one. Oscar actually came in a pound and a half under Manny, who'd have guessed it? Truthfully, when I heard that DLH had toned himself down to that extent, I thought he had one of those old tricks up his sleeve, had forgotten how smart Oscar is, a guy who's reinvented himself more than Madonna. But turns out that was a big mistake. Who'd have thought Oscar would actually be outgunned? Only a good fight because of the two names up in the ring. If we'd never heard of Oscar, today we'd be saying that the fight never should have been made. Pacquiao's straight left up the middle controlled the fight. I liked Manny for this fight, but not in such a lopsided way. Was always impressed with his heart, his desire, his everyready battery energy, but last night I watched a seasoned, intelligent, mobile and proficient technician, and now I really am impressed. Sky's the limit!

[Maxmomer]

I was one T and 7 rounds away from being right.

[ChrisPontius]

Well, this is boxing; even the best observers are wrong a regular basis, and even the worst observers and biggest pricks (Teddy Atlas) are right sometimes.

I expected De la Hoya to win, but i never considered it a mismatch. Of course, 90% of the general forum that was calling it a mismatch and a cheap way to cash out for De la Hoya yesterday, is now saying they called the upset, etc. :lol: A bunch of sad, little men.

[Robbi]

Typical. You're acting like you got the prediction right. :lol:

I simply said I knew Pacquaio's southpaw stance and speed would give De La Hoya problems in my prediction. And I was right on that. Typical? What you on about? Once you had a go at me for not giving a solid prediction once because I sat on the fence. I have no history for giving a prediction then changing my tune afterwards.

I'm not acting like I got the prediction right. :good

[salsanchezfan]

............I was amazingly wrong on this pick. I really thought Oscar's natural size would be too much. Guuhhhh.......

That aside, I appreciate what Oscar brought to boxing. It's rare that you get a fighter so compelled to go out of his way to fight the best competition he possibly can. Whitaker did it too, but he didnt have the star power Oscar had. He helped bring boxing as close to mainstream as any fighter since Tyson.

I remember when he beat Rafael Ruelas for his first real title. Naysayers and those that despise "media fighters" scoffed and noted Ruelas' shaky chin, poor balance, and bad defense. "Let's see what he does against someone like Chavez; he'll get eaten up then."

........So he fought Chavez twice, and stopped him twice.

Then they said "oh well.......Chavez was old; we saw that coming a mile away. It seems he hasn't had the sack to sign to fight Whitaker, Quartey, or Trinidad yet. Ha."

.......So he fights all three. Argue if you must that he lost at least two of those fights. I might agree with the Whitaker fight, but all three were so painfully close, and this was one deep welterweight division. Any bleatings of who won each of those matches is rather beside the point. He fought the guys the "experts" claimed he didnt have the balls to fight, and he was right there with them every step of the way.

Throw the grudge match with Vargas into the mix and you have a hell of a resume if he'd stopped right there. In that fight (not to mention gutting it out against Quartey) he showed the fire such a rich media darling isn't supposed to have. It should have become clear to all at that point that money was not the only mitigating factor with him, but still many scoffed. They couldnt get beyond the polished image, the good looks, the wealth.


It's a pity that some still can't get beyond it. Even now, with the long record there in front of us.

[Arka]

This is a great analysis from BxgScn forum:

Originally Posted by Arka Vi
Why didn't Oscar balloon upto 160?????
Nobody has seemed to answer this question.
Tengoshi

Because given the new body he created he couldn't. He created a WW body for himself for this fight, one that he can no longer inhabit in any form of fighting shape. He drained himself down to below 147 and maintained that weight for a long while, shrinking his frame and muscular structure to fit the strenuous demands placed upon it to carry it. He even went to lengths to come in to the weigh-in underweight just to prove the point, attempting to pull a Hopkins.I guess Oscar was stupidly trying to make a point with his weight and ,in doing so,terminated his own career.

[Nemesis]

This is a great analysis from BxgScn forum:

I guess Oscar was stupidly trying to make a point with his weight and ,in doing so,terminated his own career.

Kinda reminds me of when Chris Byrd coming down to light heavy

[Stonehands89]

Against the odds as well as the strong trend of the thread Stone comes thru. He even went to great (and rather accurate) lengths with the why's and how's.

One of the best predictions i have seen in here, possibly the best.
Thanks, JT and all those who noticed.

Handicapping boxing matches is about as tough as it gets and not a little of it is based on blind luck so no one should be too impressed. One well timed left hook by Oscar and I'd be eating crow myself.

(by the way, MDwC, "eating crow" is the Americanized version of the English "eating humble pie.")

[dpw417]

Oscar used to love to feast on smaller guys -Leija, Chavez, Paez, Molina... I remember criticizing him quite heavily for this penchant in the 90s. Then he stepped it up and fought Tito, then Shane, then Vargas, Bernard, and on it went ... he started really challenging himself. Let's be honest, though Oscar has been semi-retired since that loss to Trinidad in 1999. That's damn near a decade.

Oscar is chomping at the bit. The size difference is considerable. He is looking down as far as he used to look on the dimuntitive opponents he feasted on when he was an active fighter. It must be nostalgic. Training at Big Bear, where his pro career began, is appropriate. He's a good but not great fighter, now, who's semi-retired, sleeps in silk pajamas, and fights for sh*ts and giggles.

Now look at Manny Pacquaio. Manny is a great fighter -there's no doubt about that -you just don't embarass Barrera, compete like he did to take a disputed draw and decision against an inspired Marquez, and take a trilogy against Morales if you aren't a great fighter. He's in his prime and is deeply inspired. He's fighting for a poor country who has put their hopes and dreams on him... Sure, he's a full 4 inches shorter, yes, and Oscar still has a wicked left hook, and still looks very good against guys like Steve Forbes but Manny is murder inside, hits hard enough to get a WW's attention, and sets a pace that I don't expect a 35 year old De la Hoya to stay with. I don't care how hard the older man trains. Oscar is a tense fighter, he's officially a rich man (and I mean between the ears), a family man and a business man. He's as civilized a fighter as there has ever been. In other words, he doesn't have to fight anymore and knows that he's close to done. How many times does he discuss this in interviews?

Manny is completely focused. He's honed. He also has great agility and flexibility -elasticity even. He's loose and he's having fun in there.

Manny relishes battle. Oscar thinks about his wife.

Freddie Roach may have a secret, or he may be bluffing. I have the feeling that what he knows is that Oscar doesn't have the passion anymore to fight Manny the way you have to in order to tame him. Marquez does, and that's why he will beat Manny if they meet again. But Oscar? Nah. I never liked Oscar against guys who he can't control or who control him. Everyone is hung up on the size difference. I'm not. They look a bit like Duran and Leonard on paper. I see Pacquiao fighting Oscar like Duran did Leonard -but Leonard was sharp and ready and 24 years old. Oscar, well, if he can't hurt Manny early, I think that the smaller man will take over.

Good big men beat good smaller men, but not great smaller men. That's been proven enough to raise eyebrows. How great is Pacquiao? We'll find out tomorrow night.

Pacquiao. TKO late.
Excellent post. Always a great read, Stonehands...

[Rumsfeld]

Oscar used to love to feast on smaller guys -Leija, Chavez, Paez, Molina... I remember criticizing him quite heavily for this penchant in the 90s. Then he stepped it up and fought Tito, then Shane, then Vargas, Bernard, and on it went ... he started really challenging himself. Let's be honest, though Oscar has been semi-retired since that loss to Trinidad in 1999. That's damn near a decade.

Oscar is chomping at the bit. The size difference is considerable. He is looking down as far as he used to look on the dimuntitive opponents he feasted on when he was an active fighter. It must be nostalgic. Training at Big Bear, where his pro career began, is appropriate. He's a good but not great fighter, now, who's semi-retired, sleeps in silk pajamas, and fights for sh*ts and giggles.

Now look at Manny Pacquaio. Manny is a great fighter -there's no doubt about that -you just don't embarass Barrera, compete like he did to take a disputed draw and decision against an inspired Marquez, and take a trilogy against Morales if you aren't a great fighter. He's in his prime and is deeply inspired. He's fighting for a poor country who has put their hopes and dreams on him... Sure, he's a full 4 inches shorter, yes, and Oscar still has a wicked left hook, and still looks very good against guys like Steve Forbes but Manny is murder inside, hits hard enough to get a WW's attention, and sets a pace that I don't expect a 35 year old De la Hoya to stay with. I don't care how hard the older man trains. Oscar is a tense fighter, he's officially a rich man (and I mean between the ears), a family man and a business man. He's as civilized a fighter as there has ever been. In other words, he doesn't have to fight anymore and knows that he's close to done. How many times does he discuss this in interviews?

Manny is completely focused. He's honed. He also has great agility and flexibility -elasticity even. He's loose and he's having fun in there.

Manny relishes battle. Oscar thinks about his wife.

Freddie Roach may have a secret, or he may be bluffing. I have the feeling that what he knows is that Oscar doesn't have the passion anymore to fight Manny the way you have to in order to tame him. Marquez does, and that's why he will beat Manny if they meet again. But Oscar? Nah. I never liked Oscar against guys who he can't control or who control him. Everyone is hung up on the size difference. I'm not. They look a bit like Duran and Leonard on paper. I see Pacquiao fighting Oscar like Duran did Leonard -but Leonard was sharp and ready and 24 years old. Oscar, well, if he can't hurt Manny early, I think that the smaller man will take over.

Good big men beat good smaller men, but not great smaller men. That's been proven enough to raise eyebrows. How great is Pacquiao? We'll find out tomorrow night.

Pacquiao. TKO late.

Outstanding. Very well done.

:good

[young griffo]

............I was amazingly wrong on this pick. I really thought Oscar's natural size would be too much. Guuhhhh.......

That aside, I appreciate what Oscar brought to boxing. It's rare that you get a fighter so compelled to go out of his way to fight the best competition he possibly can. Whitaker did it too, but he didnt have the star power Oscar had. He helped bring boxing as close to mainstream as any fighter since Tyson.

I remember when he beat Rafael Ruelas for his first real title. Naysayers and those that despise "media fighters" scoffed and noted Ruelas' shaky chin, poor balance, and bad defense. "Let's see what he does against someone like Chavez; he'll get eaten up then."

........So he fought Chavez twice, and stopped him twice.

Then they said "oh well.......Chavez was old; we saw that coming a mile away. It seems he hasn't had the sack to sign to fight Whitaker, Quartey, or Trinidad yet. Ha."

.......So he fights all three. Argue if you must that he lost at least two of those fights. I might agree with the Whitaker fight, but all three were so painfully close, and this was one deep welterweight division. Any bleatings of who won each of those matches is rather beside the point. He fought the guys the "experts" claimed he didnt have the balls to fight, and he was right there with them every step of the way.

Throw the grudge match with Vargas into the mix and you have a hell of a resume if he'd stopped right there. In that fight (not to mention gutting it out against Quartey) he showed the fire such a rich media darling isn't supposed to have. It should have become clear to all at that point that money was not the only mitigating factor with him, but still many scoffed. They couldnt get beyond the polished image, the good looks, the wealth.


It's a pity that some still can't get beyond it. Even now, with the long record there in front of us.
Great post Sal.

I can't believe some of the vitriol Oscar still attracts amongst some clowns who try to pass themselves off as boxing fans.The man actively sort out the best fighters for nearly his entire career and if that can't garner him some respect then I don't know what can.He fought any and all styles,wasn't afraid to face big punchers and didn't let his precious record stop him from stepping in against the best fighters out there.

Sure he got the benefit of a few dodgy decisions but he also had some go against him as well which you seldom hear his detractors admit.

Oscar was the biggest name in boxing for the best part of a decade,faced probably the toughest level of opposition of anyone in the last 20 years and at his peak was one of the best fighters of the last 15 years.

Like him or not Oscar De La Hoya was great for boxing.

[Stonehands89]

Great post Sal.

I can't believe some of the vitriol Oscar still attracts amongst some clowns who try to pass themselves off as boxing fans.The man actively sort out the best fighters for nearly his entire career and if that can't garner him some respect then I don't know what can.He fought any and all styles,wasn't afraid to face big punchers and didn't let his precious record stop him from stepping in against the best fighters out there.

Sure he got the benefit of a few dodgy decisions but he also had some go against him as well which you seldom hear his detractors admit.

Oscar was the biggest name in boxing for the best part of a decade,faced probably the toughest level of opposition of anyone in the last 20 years and at his peak was one of the best fighters of the last 15 years.

Like him or not Oscar De La Hoya was great for boxing.
I agree with this and Sal's post. While I believe that Oscar has not been very motivated to be great for years now, he has without a doubt honored boxing with his charisma, ability, and willingness to accept challenges. I'm still impressed with how easily he beat Chavez back in '96.

--and I'm also getting more impressed with those performances against Shane -who was hell to fight. Especially because Oscar was in all likelihood fighting a man who was on performance enhancing drugs. Word is, Shane admitted this to a grand jury during the BALCO (Bay Area Laboratory Co-operative) testimony -that he took EPO (a banned oxygen-boosting drug) almost 10 times before the fight.

[young griffo]

I agree with this and Sal's post. While I believe that Oscar has not been very motivated to be great for years now, he has without a doubt honored boxing with his charisma, ability, and willingness to accept challenges. I'm still impressed with how easily he beat Chavez back in '96.

--and I'm also getting more impressed with those performances against Shane -who was hell to fight. Especially because Oscar was in all likelihood fighting a man who was on performance enhancing drugs. Word is, Shane admitted this to a grand jury during the BALCO (Bay Area Laboratory Co-operative) testimony -that he took EPO (a banned oxygen-boosting drug) almost 10 times before the fight.
I read this about Mosley as well.

It really does put a new slant on their fight's considering they were both very close (I thought Oscar won the second fight),hard fought affairs.It makes you wonder if the results would have been very,very different if the BALCO stuff didn't allegedly happen.

It certainly gives a new meaning to the term an "honourable loss" for Oscar if it is true.

[Stonehands89]

I read this about Mosley as well.

It really does put a new slant on their fight's considering they were both very close (I thought Oscar won the second fight),hard fought affairs.It makes you wonder if the results would have been very,very different if the BALCO stuff didn't allegedly happen.

It certainly gives a new meaning to the term an "honourable loss" for Oscar if it is true.
Yes, but too bad it didn't happen 2 years later because it would be what it should be -which is a "no contest". I think it should be taken to a review board and re-categorized anyway if it turns out to be the case.

[Stonehands89]

Outstanding. Very well done.

:good
Thank you -that's quite the complement coming from a high caliber observer like you.

(By the way, I enjoy your articles and try to read them when I can...)

[divac]

Oscar used to love to feast on smaller guys -Leija, Chavez, Paez, Molina... I remember criticizing him quite heavily for this penchant in the 90s. Then he stepped it up and fought Tito, then Shane, then Vargas, Bernard, and on it went ... he started really challenging himself. Let's be honest, though Oscar has been semi-retired since that loss to Trinidad in 1999. That's damn near a decade.

Oscar is chomping at the bit. The size difference is considerable. He is looking down as far as he used to look on the dimuntitive opponents he feasted on when he was an active fighter. It must be nostalgic. Training at Big Bear, where his pro career began, is appropriate. He's a good but not great fighter, now, who's semi-retired, sleeps in silk pajamas, and fights for sh*ts and giggles.

Now look at Manny Pacquaio. Manny is a great fighter -there's no doubt about that -you just don't embarass Barrera, compete like he did to take a disputed draw and decision against an inspired Marquez, and take a trilogy against Morales if you aren't a great fighter. He's in his prime and is deeply inspired. He's fighting for a poor country who has put their hopes and dreams on him... Sure, he's a full 4 inches shorter, yes, and Oscar still has a wicked left hook, and still looks very good against guys like Steve Forbes but Manny is murder inside, hits hard enough to get a WW's attention, and sets a pace that I don't expect a 35 year old De la Hoya to stay with. I don't care how hard the older man trains. Oscar is a tense fighter, he's officially a rich man (and I mean between the ears), a family man and a business man. He's as civilized a fighter as there has ever been. In other words, he doesn't have to fight anymore and knows that he's close to done. How many times does he discuss this in interviews?

Manny is completely focused. He's honed. He also has great agility and flexibility -elasticity even. He's loose and he's having fun in there.

Manny relishes battle. Oscar thinks about his wife.

Freddie Roach may have a secret, or he may be bluffing. I have the feeling that what he knows is that Oscar doesn't have the passion anymore to fight Manny the way you have to in order to tame him. Marquez does, and that's why he will beat Manny if they meet again. But Oscar? Nah. I never liked Oscar against guys who he can't control or who control him. Everyone is hung up on the size difference. I'm not. They look a bit like Duran and Leonard on paper. I see Pacquiao fighting Oscar like Duran did Leonard -but Leonard was sharp and ready and 24 years old. Oscar, well, if he can't hurt Manny early, I think that the smaller man will take over.

Good big men beat good smaller men, but not great smaller men. That's been proven enough to raise eyebrows. How great is Pacquiao? We'll find out tomorrow night.

Pacquiao. TKO late.

Wow Stonehands89, you outdid even Pacquiao's performance against DLH!:good

Since you analyzed it almost perfectly 89......What are your thoughts on DLH officially weighing 145 lbs after not having fought at even 147 lbs for 8 years?

......and even more than that, what could have happened to have DLH only gain two pounds overnight!


3 weeks ago, the HBO 24/7 cameras caught DLH weighing 145 lbs after a workout.
I said back then that the scale must have been rigged to have DLH weighing so low with over 3 weeks to go to fight night......


I'm trying to rationalize not Pacquiao's win, but the pitiful non-performance of DLH........could it be that DLH and his team made a grave mistake in getting his body too low too quick with their rationale being that DLH would be better off getting accustomed to being and fighting at the weight.

I would have thought that 3 weeks prior to the fight, DLH would be somewhere in the low 150's after a workout, and working to get himself to come in at exactly 147 lbs on the weighin date..........then rehydrating himself back up about a dozen pounds.

Seems like in an effort to drop weight to be quicker and faster, DLH gave up the enormous advantage he had in weight, strenghth, and punching power......his reflexes certainly suffered in the process, he could'nt avoid a Pac shot, even when he was'nt thinking about throwing a shot in return, and just looking to block it.
When you look how good DLH's defense was against a quicker and faster Mayweather just a year and a half ago, nowone expected DLH to look and be as inept as he was.

I would like to hear your thoughts and anyone of the regulars from the classic section on the matter....Stonehands,, SSF, JT, Sweet_Scientist, Robbi, and others????

[sauhund II]

The weight loss definetly was a factor but I also believe he just got old in the ring overnite. The brain/ego was there but he just could not pull the trigger anymore. Nothing to take away from Pac , he had to do what he had to do but he fought a heavybag who did not fire back at all, it is not to difficult looking spectacular under those circumstances.

I actually picked Hoya to win because I believed he had enough in the tank to pull it off against a smaller hand picked brawler but after the weigh in I started to have severe doubts about my prediction and the possibility of a Pac Ko or outhustling Hoya down the stretch became a distinct possibility.

[fists of fury]

The guys that called it right take a bow.

I suppose the logical matchup is now Pac v Hatton, an intriguing fight if ever there was one. The fight I really want to see is Pac v Mayweather. It has to happen now!

I wonder how Manny Pac will be viewed 10 years from now?

[JohnThomas1]

............I was amazingly wrong on this pick. I really thought Oscar's natural size would be too much. Guuhhhh.......

That aside, I appreciate what Oscar brought to boxing. It's rare that you get a fighter so compelled to go out of his way to fight the best competition he possibly can. Whitaker did it too, but he didnt have the star power Oscar had. He helped bring boxing as close to mainstream as any fighter since Tyson.

I remember when he beat Rafael Ruelas for his first real title. Naysayers and those that despise "media fighters" scoffed and noted Ruelas' shaky chin, poor balance, and bad defense. "Let's see what he does against someone like Chavez; he'll get eaten up then."

........So he fought Chavez twice, and stopped him twice.

Then they said "oh well.......Chavez was old; we saw that coming a mile away. It seems he hasn't had the sack to sign to fight Whitaker, Quartey, or Trinidad yet. Ha."

.......So he fights all three. Argue if you must that he lost at least two of those fights. I might agree with the Whitaker fight, but all three were so painfully close, and this was one deep welterweight division. Any bleatings of who won each of those matches is rather beside the point. He fought the guys the "experts" claimed he didnt have the balls to fight, and he was right there with them every step of the way.

Throw the grudge match with Vargas into the mix and you have a hell of a resume if he'd stopped right there. In that fight (not to mention gutting it out against Quartey) he showed the fire such a rich media darling isn't supposed to have. It should have become clear to all at that point that money was not the only mitigating factor with him, but still many scoffed. They couldnt get beyond the polished image, the good looks, the wealth.


It's a pity that some still can't get beyond it. Even now, with the long record there in front of us.

That's a great post.

[divac]

The weight loss definetly was a factor but I also believe he just got old in the ring overnite. The brain/ego was there but he just could not pull the trigger anymore. Nothing to take away from Pac , he had to do what he had to do but he fought a heavybag who did not fire back at all, it is not to difficult looking spectacular under those circumstances.

I actually picked Hoya to win because I believed he had enough in the tank to pull it off against a smaller hand picked brawler but after the weigh in I started to have severe doubts about my prediction and the possibility of a Pac Ko or outhustling Hoya down the stretch became a distinct possibility.

I was bewildered when DLH tipped the official scales at 145 lbs, but I still expected him to gain at least to step into the ring as a juniormiddleweight.
......then HBO announced DLH is at 147 right before stepping into the ring......at that point, I went from Pacquiao has no chance, to Pac can actually win this thing!

Has anybody heard a quote from DLH on this weight matter, and what his rationale was for this......dont media credentialed journalist do their jobs anymore?

[Unforgiven]

I was bewildered when DLH tipped the official scales at 145 lbs, but I still expected him to gain at least to step into the ring as a juniormiddleweight.
......then HBO announced DLH is at 147 right before stepping into the ring......at that point, I went from Pacquiao has no chance, to Pac can actually win this thing!

Has anybody heard a quote from DLH on this weight matter, and what his rationale was for this......dont media credentialed journalist do their jobs anymore?

If true, I think it's refreshing to hear that a guy is actually coming into the ring inside the limit and not blown up 10-15 pounds on his weigh-in weight. It's the way it should be.

[divac]

............I was amazingly wrong on this pick. I really thought Oscar's natural size would be too much. Guuhhhh.......

That aside, I appreciate what Oscar brought to boxing. It's rare that you get a fighter so compelled to go out of his way to fight the best competition he possibly can. Whitaker did it too, but he didnt have the star power Oscar had. He helped bring boxing as close to mainstream as any fighter since Tyson.

I remember when he beat Rafael Ruelas for his first real title. Naysayers and those that despise "media fighters" scoffed and noted Ruelas' shaky chin, poor balance, and bad defense. "Let's see what he does against someone like Chavez; he'll get eaten up then."

........So he fought Chavez twice, and stopped him twice.

Then they said "oh well.......Chavez was old; we saw that coming a mile away. It seems he hasn't had the sack to sign to fight Whitaker, Quartey, or Trinidad yet. Ha."

.......So he fights all three. Argue if you must that he lost at least two of those fights. I might agree with the Whitaker fight, but all three were so painfully close, and this was one deep welterweight division. Any bleatings of who won each of those matches is rather beside the point. He fought the guys the "experts" claimed he didnt have the balls to fight, and he was right there with them every step of the way.

Throw the grudge match with Vargas into the mix and you have a hell of a resume if he'd stopped right there. In that fight (not to mention gutting it out against Quartey) he showed the fire such a rich media darling isn't supposed to have. It should have become clear to all at that point that money was not the only mitigating factor with him, but still many scoffed. They couldnt get beyond the polished image, the good looks, the wealth.


It's a pity that some still can't get beyond it. Even now, with the long record there in front of us.

I consider DLH a great fighter for many of the reasons you stated.
Certainly he was competitive even in the fights that did'nt go his way.

......but the bottom line for me is that he does'nt belong with the true elites in history.
Bottom line is that he could'nt rise to the occasion and lost every big fight to a bonafide peer in his career.

[jyuza]

I was bewildered when DLH tipped the official scales at 145 lbs, but I still expected him to gain at least to step into the ring as a juniormiddleweight.
......then HBO announced DLH is at 147 right before stepping into the ring......at that point, I went from Pacquiao has no chance, to Pac can actually win this thing!

Has anybody heard a quote from DLH on this weight matter, and what his rationale was for this......dont media credentialed journalist do their jobs anymore?


What surprised me the most was Oscar's weight at fight night. I don't know what kind of training he has been through to move down so easily but it clearly was a factor during the fight. Hell, Pacquiao came in the ring heavier than Oscar ! Manny at 148.5 and Oscar at the welterwieght limit 147 when everybody was expecting at least an extra 10 pounds for DLH.
I think it was a bad miscalculation from the so called "star team" whom De La Hoya worked with for this bout.
But that only a factor. The main reason Oscar lost is due to two things : his age and Pacquiao's speed.

It would have been different if he was on the same level he used to against PBF but well, in boxing, you just don't know what can happen.

[The Wanderer]

Some random thoughts:

Obviously half of the fight's result is that Oscar was shot, but the other half... I wonder. All the fights in which I've seen Oscar do his best work was against guys with whom he could control the tempo and range. Even when he had one without the other (ala Whitaker, where he could control the range due to his massive size advantage but not the tempo because of Whitaker's speed and elusiveness) he couldn't dominate guys who were in or near the top tier.

When he couldn't control these things, whether because a fighter was too fast for him, (Sugar Shane Mosley) could physically impose their will on him, (Bernard Hopkins) or because they had a similar skill set and were able to contest his control of these things (Quartey) Oscar struggled mightily, and with mixed results.

No matter what stage of his career DLH might have been in when they fought, Pac would never allow Oscar to set the tempo, and the relentless aggression of Pac could always have the potential to upset Oscar's preference for using his reach and keeping things at arm's length.

This all makes me wonder how much trouble Manny would have given even a better Welterweight version of Oscar. Now, I'd expect the Oscar who beat Quartey to pull things out, because of his physical advantages and because he wouldn't be shot to hell, but it does make me wonder if Pac could have given even the best version of DLH trouble.

Any thoughts from the forum?

[sweet_scientist]

Wow Stonehands89, you outdid even Pacquiao's performance against DLH!:good

Since you analyzed it almost perfectly 89......What are your thoughts on DLH officially weighing 145 lbs after not having fought at even 147 lbs for 8 years?

......and even more than that, what could have happened to have DLH only gain two pounds overnight!


3 weeks ago, the HBO 24/7 cameras caught DLH weighing 145 lbs after a workout.
I said back then that the scale must have been rigged to have DLH weighing so low with over 3 weeks to go to fight night......


I'm trying to rationalize not Pacquiao's win, but the pitiful non-performance of DLH........could it be that DLH and his team made a grave mistake in getting his body too low too quick with their rationale being that DLH would be better off getting accustomed to being and fighting at the weight.

I would have thought that 3 weeks prior to the fight, DLH would be somewhere in the low 150's after a workout, and working to get himself to come in at exactly 147 lbs on the weighin date..........then rehydrating himself back up about a dozen pounds.

Seems like in an effort to drop weight to be quicker and faster, DLH gave up the enormous advantage he had in weight, strenghth, and punching power......his reflexes certainly suffered in the process, he could'nt avoid a Pac shot, even when he was'nt thinking about throwing a shot in return, and just looking to block it.
When you look how good DLH's defense was against a quicker and faster Mayweather just a year and a half ago, nowone expected DLH to look and be as inept as he was.

I would like to hear your thoughts and anyone of the regulars from the classic section on the matter....Stonehands,, SSF, JT, Sweet_Scientist, Robbi, and others????

I can't believe DLH weighed less than Pac. He still looked a weight class up on him, clearly imo.

I don't believe DLH would be stupid enough to come in at 147. I've heard people say that he wanted to weigh a light amount to legitimize the contest, but come on now, this is Oscar we're talking about. He's hardly the type that would do something like that. Just look at all the specs he had for the Mayweather bout.

I'd sooner believe that he had an adverse effect to the diuretics he probably needed to make 147 than believe that he was weighing in the 140's for 3 weeks before the fight.

[mcvey]

What the fuck's CROW?

Crow, as in "To Eat Crow"?.Christ you Scousers really are thick aren't you,the most intelligent bloke who came from the Pool was probably Yosser .And stop swearing ,or I'll resume saying "resume "again.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Crow, as in "To Eat Crow"?.Christ you Scousers really are thick aren't you,the most intelligent bloke who came from the Pool was probably Yosser .And stop swearing ,or I'll resume saying "resume "again.


Have you ever heard anyone actually say this who isn't called Chuck or Brad?

And why would you 'eat humble pie' when you simply called a fight wrong? :lol:

[JohnThomas1]

Bottom line is that he could'nt rise to the occasion and lost every big fight to a bonafide peer in his career.

Oh come on now :lol:

[mcvey]

Have you ever heard anyone actually say this who isn't called Chuck or Brad?

And why would you 'eat humble pie' when you simply called a fight wrong? :lol:

My name is Randy ,but my friends call me Tab,and while it might be usual for you ordinary people to make a wrong prediction ,it is highly unusual for the likes of me.

[Stonehands89]

Impressed! I thought what you wrote but, was not bold enough to say Pac via TKO.
How do you think Pac would have went against a younger hungrier Oscar?
I'd venture to say that Pacquiao has the kind of loose, relentless, technically underrated style that would have always caused problems for Oscar's more tense, calculating, and cautious style. These respective styles also happen to reflect their psychologies as well. Pacquiao is not self-conscious -and he's fluid, whereas Oscar is not. Pacquiao's intensity would disturb Oscar and force Oscar to take risks -and pay for them. I don't believe that Oscar would ever be really comfortable with that.

This was a bad choice of an opponent for Oscar in terms of style though not size -particularly at this point of his career. And particularly because he effectively sacrificed his size advantages. In his desire to match Manny's speed, he sacrificed the most important asset a natural WW would have over a natural FW -physical strength. 145 was just too low.

[john garfield]

I'd venture to say that Pacquiao has the kind of loose, relentless, technically underrated style that would have always caused problems for Oscar's more tense, calculating, and cautious style. These respective styles also happen to reflect their psychologies as well. Pacquiao is not self-conscious -and he's fluid, whereas Oscar is not. Pacquiao's intensity would disturb Oscar and force Oscar to take risks -and pay for them. I don't believe that Oscar would ever be really comfortable with that.

This was a bad choice of an opponent for Oscar in terms of style though not size -particularly at this point of his career. And particularly because he effectively sacrificed his size advantages. In his desire to match Manny's speed, he sacrificed the most important asset a natural WW would have over a natural FW -physical strength. 145 was just too low.

A pleasure to read something so thoughtfully, precisely, and artfully put, S89. A post with real weight!

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[Robbi]

I'd venture to say that Pacquiao has the kind of loose, relentless, technically underrated style that would have always caused problems for Oscar's more tense, calculating, and cautious style. These respective styles also happen to reflect their psychologies as well. Pacquiao is not self-conscious -and he's fluid, whereas Oscar is not. Pacquiao's intensity would disturb Oscar and force Oscar to take risks -and pay for them. I don't believe that Oscar would ever be really comfortable with that.

De La Hoya wasn't tense and rigid in his younger days. Not when he fought Hernandez, Ruelas, Chavez, etc, over 12 years ago. He was very free-flowing back then, also fluid and loose. His upperbody and head movement against Hernandez was as good as it ever was at any point in his career. He fought out of a low crouch throughout that fight and was very elusive. Constantly 'bobbing and weaving' and swiveling from the waist. And he was anything but 'tight' technically against Chavez in 96. Who was the influence at that point in his career? Jesus Rivero.

[sauhund II]

Some random thoughts:

Obviously half of the fight's result is that Oscar was shot, but the other half... I wonder. All the fights in which I've seen Oscar do his best work was against guys with whom he could control the tempo and range. Even when he had one without the other (ala Whitaker, where he could control the range due to his massive size advantage but not the tempo because of Whitaker's speed and elusiveness) he couldn't dominate guys who were in or near the top tier.

When he couldn't control these things, whether because a fighter was too fast for him, (Sugar Shane Mosley) could physically impose their will on him, (Bernard Hopkins) or because they had a similar skill set and were able to contest his control of these things (Quartey) Oscar struggled mightily, and with mixed results.

No matter what stage of his career DLH might have been in when they fought, Pac would never allow Oscar to set the tempo, and the relentless aggression of Pac could always have the potential to upset Oscar's preference for using his reach and keeping things at arm's length.

This all makes me wonder how much trouble Manny would have given even a better Welterweight version of Oscar. Now, I'd expect the Oscar who beat Quartey to pull things out, because of his physical advantages and because he wouldn't be shot to hell, but it does make me wonder if Pac could have given even the best version of DLH trouble.

Any thoughts from the forum?
Hold your horses now.

Again GREAT performance from Pac , no doubt, but lets not go overboard. DLH is old and does not even come close to what he was in the Mayweather fight, for some reason he had a rapid downfall in the last year and a half. It happens to a lot or almost all fighters and one day it will happen to Pac when a new young gun will clean his clock .

I am convinced if Pac would have faced the Quartey, Chavez or Trinidad DLH version he would not see the distance. IMO of course. Pac was there to be hit but as Foreman once described getting old as a fighter "My eyes saw the openings but the signal from the brain did not reach my fists in time ".

He has cleaned out the old shopworn brigade , bravo to him and that what he was supposed to do but just lets calm down a bit and see him perform against young elite in their prime $$$ fighters like Hatton, Mayweather or Cotto before we call him the new methusalem.

[divac]

I can't believe DLH weighed less than Pac. He still looked a weight class up on him, clearly imo.

I don't believe DLH would be stupid enough to come in at 147. I've heard people say that he wanted to weigh a light amount to legitimize the contest, but come on now, this is Oscar we're talking about. He's hardly the type that would do something like that. Just look at all the specs he had for the Mayweather bout.

I'd sooner believe that he had an adverse effect to the diuretics he probably needed to make 147 than believe that he was weighing in the 140's for 3 weeks before the fight.

So what do you think happened?......

......do you think HBO was in cahoots with DLH to give the viewer false information about his weight during his training and up to the time he climbed into the ring?

I certainly would'nt put it past HBO to do that, but they'd also be putting their name and credibiltiy on the line if someone in the know inside their circle came out to make it public.

The whole thing is just wierd to me......from 145 lbs for the official weighin to HBO's announcement of 147 lbs right before DLH walks to the ring.

Scientist, we made our predictions and both of us thought DLH would have a fairly easy time of it........if you would have known beforehand that DLH would officially tip the scales at 145 lbs and then 147 lbs right before his ringwalk, would you have changed the tune on your prediction?

........I think the great majority of this forum would have picked Pacquiao under those circumstances.

[The Wanderer]

Hold your horses now.

Again GREAT performance from Pac , no doubt, but lets not go overboard. DLH is old and does not even come close to what he was in the Mayweather fight, for some reason he had a rapid downfall in the last year and a half. It happens to a lot or almost all fighters and one day it will happen to Pac when a new young gun will clean his clock .

I am convinced if Pac would have faced the Quartey, Chavez or Trinidad DLH version he would not see the distance. IMO of course. Pac was there to be hit but as Foreman once described getting old as a fighter "My eyes saw the openings but the signal from the brain did not reach my fists in time ".

He has cleaned out the old shopworn brigade , bravo to him and that what he was supposed to do but just lets calm down a bit and see him perform against young elite in their prime $$$ fighters like Hatton, Mayweather or Cotto before we call him the new methusalem.

*Sigh*

Yes, and if you read closely, you'll see that I said young De La Hoya would probably have done everything we were expecting him to do the other night.

The reason for my post was that like many I got so tied up in seeing the issue between Oscar and Pac as a size issue that I hadn't looked much at styles, other than that Pac might be open to Oscar's counters. However, Oscar did always like to fight at a slow controlled pace, and by using his reach to set the distance. And regardless of age, I think Pac would have gotten him out of his preferred rythmn and forced him to make adjustments because of it.

I AM NOT SAYING PAC WOULD BEAT THE OSCAR OF 98-99.

I am saying that he might trouble him, force him out of his preferred style and method of fighting. That is all. And I was wondering if anyone saw the clash between styles similarly.

[sweet_scientist]

So what do you think happened?......

......do you think HBO was in cahoots with DLH to give the viewer false information about his weight during his training and up to the time he climbed into the ring?

I certainly would'nt put it past HBO to do that, but they'd also be putting their name and credibiltiy on the line if someone in the know inside their circle came out to make it public.

The whole thing is just wierd to me......from 145 lbs for the official weighin to HBO's announcement of 147 lbs right before DLH walks to the ring.

Scientist, we made our predictions and both of us thought DLH would have a fairly easy time of it........if you would have known beforehand that DLH would officially tip the scales at 145 lbs and then 147 lbs right before his ringwalk, would you have changed the tune on your prediction?

........I think the great majority of this forum would have picked Pacquiao under those circumstances.

I don't know Vlade. I'm just relying on my eyes really and they tell me DLH looked bigger than Pac. Could have been that DLH was more a shell in a literal sense, that is, bigger in shape but with a lesser volume, and thus their weight was relatively similar, but I doubt that.

If someone told me DLH was going to be 147 on fightnight I wouldn't have believed them. He probably hasn't weighed that low on fight night in over a dozen years, since about 1995 in fact. If DLH hopped on the scales in front of my eyes and that's what it said, there's no way I would have picked him to win.

I'm guessing that if DLH was really in the 140's for weeks before the fight they would have noticed how much energy, reflexes and strength he lacked and wouldn't have persevered to keep him at that weight for so long.

The whole getting him acclimatised to the weight rationale seems like crap to me. Why would Oscar need to acclamitise to 147? He needed to weigh that amount for 5 minutes and then get back to the 150's where he is more comfortable. The plan should have been to always weigh in the 150's. If it was for greater speed and reflexes, like I said, it should have been obvious that wasn't going to work in the lead up to the fight. There's no way known I'd buy the 'DLH wanted to make the win legitimate by being the same weight as Pac' excuse.

[Sweet Pea]

I don't know Vlade. I'm just relying on my eyes really and they tell me DLH looked bigger than Pac. Could have been that DLH was more a shell in a literal sense, that is, bigger in shape but with a lesser volume, and thus their weight was relatively similar, but I doubt that.

If someone told me DLH was going to be 147 on fightnight I wouldn't have believed them. He probably hasn't weighed that low on fight night in over a dozen years, since about 1995 in fact. If DLH hopped on the scales in front of my eyes and that's what it said, there's no way I would have picked him to win.

I'm guessing that if DLH was really in the 140's for weeks before the fight they would have noticed how much energy, reflexes and strength he lacked and wouldn't have persevered to keep him at that weight for so long.

The whole getting him acclimatised to the weight rationale seems like crap to me. Why would Oscar need to acclamitise to 147? He needed to weigh that amount for 5 minutes and then get back to the 150's where he is more comfortable. The plan should have been to always weigh in the 150's. If it was for greater speed and reflexes, like I said, it should have been obvious that wasn't going to work in the lead up to the fight. There's no way known I'd buy the 'DLH wanted to make the win legitimate by being the same weight as Pac' excuse.

I agree, it doesn't seem very likely, but the effects shown pretty much mirrror something like that happening, such as your shell analogy. That really did seem to be the case with Oscar, he simply had nothing inside, no strength, no stamina, no energy. He just seemed completely drained in there. Manny and the crew were talking at large about how much smaller Hoya came in then expected as well. He's always going to look bigger than Pacquiao because of his much larger frame, but Pacquiao looked a lot fuller and fitter in there. I think the De La Hoya camp did something wrong for sure, though not sure yet as to exactly what.

[Arka]

The reason for my post was that like many I got so tied up in seeing the issue between Oscar and Pac as a size issue...

Well,the heavier and stronger man won.Most of us got that right. :D

[round15]

Delahoya was more concerned about his fight purse than fighting Pacquiao. The younger, fresher and ultimately hungrier fighter won the fight. He should perhaps retire for good, unless his ego needs another whupping. Then again, if the money is right, Delahoya probably fights most within a 10 lb weight radius. Delahoya hasn't been hungry since he insisted on fighting Julio Cesar Chavez in a rematch which shouldn't have happened in the first place. If he retires, I believe he leaves the sport with unanswered questions and unfinished business. Whitaker, Quartey and Sturm were all deserving of rematches that never happened. If any of these potential rematches had taken place, we probably wouldn't be talking about Delahoya vs Pacquiao. Even though I'm not a huge fan of Delahoya, but I'll admit that he's been one of the most dominant champions in the last 15 years.

[he grant]

Oscar lost this fight by being too cute ... to make the match he decided to fight too light and it destroyed him. He was no where near the man who fought Mayweather, the barameter we all expected him to be ... I take nothing away from Paq but Oscar had zero that night .

[Stonehands89]

De La Hoya wasn't tense and rigid in his younger days. Not when he fought Hernandez, Ruelas, Chavez, etc, over 12 years ago. He was very free-flowing back then, also fluid and loose. His upperbody and head movement against Hernandez was as good as it ever was at any point in his career. He fought out of a low crouch throughout that fight and was very elusive. Constantly 'bobbing and weaving' and swiveling from the waist. And he was anything but 'tight' technically against Chavez in 96. Who was the influence at that point in his career? Jesus Rivero.
I can't see Oscar's style as ever having been "free flowing", "fluid and loose". I did not say that he was either 'rigid' or 'tight', but that he was tense, calculating, and cautious. Yes he could be explosive when he knew he had his man, and yes he had good fundamentals, I wouldn't argue otherwise. Against Hernandez he was indeed very mobile outside and lured Genaro in. A good strategy, but he was not naturally the rythym fighter that Manny is.

I stand by the opinion that his style was always ill-suited for Pacquaio for reasons already stated.

[Stonehands89]

A pleasure to read something so thoughtfully, precisely, and artfully put, S89. A post with real weight!

----------------------------------------------------------------
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
Salud, JG.

[Robbi]

I can't see Oscar's style as ever having been "free flowing", "fluid and loose". I did not say that he was either 'rigid' or 'tight', but that he was tense, calculating, and cautious. Yes he could be explosive when he knew he had his man, and yes he had good fundamentals, I wouldn't argue otherwise. Against Hernandez he was indeed very mobile outside and lured Genaro in. A good strategy, but he was not naturally the rythym fighter that Manny is.

I stand by the opinion that his style was always ill-suited for Pacquaio for reasons already stated.

If you ever want examples of any Oscar's fights where he was "free flowing", "fluid and loose", just let me know. And you can examine the footage for yourself when you have time.

You said "-and he's fluid, whereas Oscar is not" hence the reason I said De La Hoya wasn't rigid and tense, which is the opposite of what you termed him as being. I wasn't necassarily saying you said that. With rigid, I meant robotic. A tense fighter has difficulty being fluid and loose, and he tends to think more.

[Stonehands89]

If you ever want examples of any Oscar's fights where he was "free flowing", "fluid and loose", just let me know. And you can examine the footage for yourself when you have time.
I have most of his fights, have examined them at length for years and have arrived at an informed conclusion about his style.

Your manner of framing your arguments is often "free flowing", "fluid and loose". I suspect that here, your definitions of boxing terminology are (or will end up being) "free flowing", "fluid and loose". And I'd rather not punch clouds.

You said "-and he's fluid, whereas Oscar is not" hence the reason I said De La Hoya wasn't rigid and tense, which is the opposite of what you termed him as being. I wasn't necassarily saying you said that. With rigid, I meant robotic. A tense fighter has difficulty being fluid and loose, and he tends to think more.
--Like Oscar.

[Robbi]

I have most of his fights, have examined them at length for years and have arrived at an informed conclusion about his style.

Your manner of framing your arguments is often "free flowing", "fluid and loose". I suspect that here, your definitions of boxing terminology are (or will end up being) "free flowing", "fluid and loose". And I'd rather not punch clouds.


--Like Oscar.

I can't see Oscar's style as ever having been "free flowing", "fluid and loose".

Wrong, no question whatsoever.

Classic examples; Ruelas, Hernandez, Chavez I.

[Robbi]

HLziYmanNmU

Certainly fluid and loose here. Not cautious, although not reckless either. Not tense, probably a tad calculating based on his punch output. He's not throwing 60-70 punches a round.

You'll find some way, Stonehands, of coming up with some mumble jumble nonsense trying to tell me he wasn't fluid and loose.

He's on his toes, getting off with punches freely, bending from the waist, showing lateral movement, getting off with punches easily when he sees opportunities, fighting on the backfoot at times. The man is fluid and loose.

[Stonehands89]

I can't see Oscar's style as ever having been "free flowing", "fluid and loose".

Wrong, no question whatsoever.

Classic examples; Ruelas, Hernandez, Chavez I.
...Your manner of framing your arguments is often "free flowing", "fluid and loose". I suspect that here, your definitions of boxing terminology are (or will end up being) "free flowing", "fluid and loose". And I'd rather not punch clouds.

There's also a strain of hypocrisy here, Robbi. You stated recently that I come out here looking for a fight -and yet this is not the first time that you throw a shot. I usually welcome that; but this debate will be a stupid one about what is meant by fluid and loose and what is meant by tense.

If you choose to believe what you have stated about Oscar, you're welcome to it. I'm not about to quibble over semantics; nor would I seek to abolish your right to be wrong.

[Robbi]

I have most of his fights, have examined them at length for years and have arrived at an informed conclusion about his style.

I can't see Oscar's style as ever having been "free flowing", "fluid and loose".



To put it blunty, when it comes to De La Hoya......You don't have a clue what you're talking about with the above.

[JohnThomas1]

To put it blunty, when it comes to De La Hoya......You don't have a clue what you're talking about with the above.

You are talking to the guy (and kudo's to others who picked Paq) that humbly walked away with this thread. How would it have went down if he quoted your wrong pick and told you that you had no clue what you were talking about per this? I shudder to think.

It might be time to realise that many of the rest of us have a very hard time understanding a lot of what you type. Instead of considering the majority is taking you wrong 100% of the time it might be high time to ponder if you yourself might have a little to do with it.

:hey

[Robbi]

You are talking to the guy (and kudo's to others who picked Paq) that humbly walked away with this thread. How would it have went down if he quoted your wrong pick and told you that you had no clue what you were talking about per this? I shudder to think.

My wrong prediction has already been picked upon. Go back and see, that was clearly sorted out as i replied on it. It's was a guess and I had reasoning behind it, I got it wrong. Many others got it wrong as well. "I shudder to think" what exactly? I have thick skin and certainly would have had the balls to hold my hands up and admit I got it wrong if challenged.



It might be time to realise that many of the rest of us have a very hard time understanding a lot of what you type. Instead of considering the majority is taking you wrong 100% of the time it might be high time to ponder if you yourself might have a little to do with it.

:hey

You needed to stick your nose in, to no surprise. Hard to understand what I type? I have clearly stated above my thoughts on De La Hoya's style above, which Stonehands said was never "fluid and loose" at any point in his career. Did you have difficulty understanding it? :lol: Surely not.

One thing I certainly found difficult to understand recently was when you said Calzaghe was well past his prime when he fought Jones. When I picked upon that nonsense, I noticed you swerved away from it and said "you don't awnser my questions, so I won't yours" or something similar. Weeks prior, I never awnsered your question, rightly so, after you complained like a school kid as to why I never gave my prediction on the opening post of the thread. It really bothered you. I guess thats a little grudge you still have towards me.

And who's the rest of us?. Just you, and sometimes Stonehands. Not the majority. You're certainly over-exaggerating with that one JT. To an absurd degree.

[Robbi]

It might be time to realise that many of the rest of us have a very hard time understanding a lot of what you type.
:hey

We have picked each other up wrong in the past. I don't have a problem with you at all JT. Some others might well be offended by the above being presented to them. I find it humorous.

[JohnThomas1]

We have picked each other up wrong in the past. I don't have a problem with you at all JT. Some others might well be offended by the above being presented to them. I find it humorous.


Can't say i didn't try. Some others can't be offended because i stated "many of the rest of us", not all.

As for sticking my nose in, well pot, kettle, black etc.

You've entirely missed my point, but that's just unfortunate. You might ask for a new pair of shoes for Xmas.

[My dinner with Conteh]

It might be time to realise that many of the rest of us have a very hard time understanding a lot of what you type. :hey


*whistles*

[Robbi]

Can't say i didn't try. Some others can't be offended because i stated "many of the rest of us", not all.

As for sticking my nose in, well pot, kettle, black etc.

You've entirely missed my point, but that's just unfortunate. You might ask for a new pair of shoes for Xmas.

I never said that you said "all" you said "majority is taking you wrong 100% of the time". I disagreed with it and fully covered it.

Entirely missed your point? I've addressed it in two parts. You're a comedian mate.

"You are talking to the guy (and kudo's to others who picked Paq) that humbly walked away with this thread. How would it have went down if he quoted your wrong pick and told you that you had no clue what you were talking about per this? I shudder to think.

It might be time to realise that many of the rest of us have a very hard time understanding a lot of what you type. Instead of considering the majority is taking you wrong 100% of the time it might be high time to ponder if you yourself might have a little to do with it"

All the highlighted areas covered.



I understand what you have typed.:lol:

[Robbi]

*whistles*

:yikes The Toffee whistler.

[My dinner with Conteh]

:yikes The Toffee whistler.


Took you an hour to think of that I see. :yep

[Robbi]

Took you an hour to think of that I see. :yep

Yeah, I sure did. My last hour was put soley into that. Got a notepad here with all the names scribbled down. That was the best I could come up with. :lol:

[My dinner with Conteh]

Imagine if De La Hoya won and StoneHands said: "I knew the size difference would be too much" and then referred to this (in his prediction post).


Oscar used to love to feast on smaller guys -Leija, Chavez, Paez, Molina. The size difference is considerable. He is looking down as far as he used to look on the dimuntitive opponents he feasted on.


See Robbi's prediction/follow up for further details. :lol:

[McGrain]

This fucking thread is really confusing me.

[Robbi]

Imagine if De La Hoya won and StoneHands said: "I knew the size difference would be too much" and then referred to this (in his prediction post).





See Robbi's prediction/follow up for further details. :lol:


Before the fight............

"I'm rooting for De La Hoya against Pacquaio. Excluding Pacman's southpaw stance and quick hands, De La Hoya has a history of eating up smaller aggressive fighters. He hates having to play the role of the aggressor. Whitaker, Mosley I, Hopkins, and Mayweather were all fights where De La Hoya had to march forward. Even the smaller Forbes' style wasn't exactly made to order for him.

Pacquaio's speed and southpaw stance will be the main problems for De La Hoya. Pacquiao's high workrate might well be his downfall rather than work to his advantage. It depends how he takes De La Hoya's punches. He's going to get hit in this fight as his defense is anything but bombproof, although it has improved recently.

IMO, De La Hoya's speed is being seriously underrated going into this fight. It wouldn't suprise me if the speed advantage Pacquaio has is very slight.


De La Hoya inside 6 rounds"


After the fight.........


"De La Hoya is finished. I knew the speed of Pacquaio would give him problems, and the southpaw stance. De La Hoya's never had a right hand, and thats what he needed tonight to have any kind of success. He just couldn't land the left hook at all. Pacman fought a very disciplined fight throughout. He turned De La Hoya all night, peppered him, even at times backing him up into a defensive shell.

De La Hoya looked and perfomed like a shot fighter. And he was robotic as he's ever been tonight."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbi [Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
De La Hoya is finished. I knew the speed of Pacquaio would give him problems, and the southpaw stance.


Conteh- Typical. You're acting like you got the prediction right. :lol:


Then I say..........


"I simply said I knew Pacquaio's southpaw stance and speed would give De La Hoya problems in my prediction. And I was right on that. Typical? What you on about? Once you had a go at me for not giving a solid prediction once because I sat on the fence. I have no history for giving a prediction then changing my tune afterwards.

I'm not acting like I got the prediction right. :good

[My dinner with Conteh]

After the fight...

I knew the speed of Pacquaio would give him problems.



Before the fight...

IMO, De La Hoya's speed is being seriously underrated going into this fight. It wouldn't suprise me if the speed advantage Pacquaio has is very slight.


This is internationally known as 'hedging your bets". :hey

[bulakenyo]

Hey guys.

I'm not as smart as you guys, especially when it comes to boxing techniques and stuff.

But do you guys think that one of the ODLH training camp's bigger mistakes was sparring and practicing against smaller lefty sluggers?

I saw a bit of that on the HBO 24/7 show. Most of Oscar's sparmates were those stocky little pitbull types, with wide, swinging punches and fighting right in front of Oscar.

But Pacquiao kinda surprised them by boxing, instead of slugging.

Throwing a laser lead left hand, right down the middle. The slowmos' showed how straight he threw those shots, as he was slipping/pivoting away to his right, in one fluid motion.

It shouldnt be a secret, though, because Pacquiao has been using that for at least 2-3 years now. Nacho would have known that.

It was weird to see Oscar get hit by that punch, all night long. It was like he coudnt see it coming, like he had been training to watch out for roundhouse lefts, or overhand lefts or something.

:think

[Robbi]

After the fight...





Before the fight...




This is internationally known as 'hedging your bets". :hey

Because I thought the speed factor might be only slight in favor of Pacquaio, that doesn't necassarily mean De La Hoya has an easy time if that was the case. Heard of timing and accuracy? If De La Hoya was slightly slower, does that really mean he's doesn't have a problem with Pacquaio's speed?

Think about it...............

Conteh- Typical. You're acting like you got the prediction right :good

You're seeing things you want to see. They just aren't there.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Because I thought the speed factor might be only slight in favor of Pacquaio, that doesn't necassarily mean De La Hoya has an easy time if that was the case. Heard of timing and accuracy? If De La Hoya was slightly slower, does that really mean he's doesn't have a problem with Pacquaio's speed?

Think about it...............

Conteh- Typical. You're acting like you got the prediction right :good

You're seeing things you want to see. They just aren't there.



The thing is, you came back on, totally unabashed, and beginning your sentence with what 'you knew'. That's what I have a problem with. Remember the other one? I can't recall the fight but you got it wrong and your first post back on here was what you "said to your mates just before the fight". :lol:

[McGrain]

Oscar used to love to feast on smaller guys -Leija, Chavez, Paez, Molina... I remember criticizing him quite heavily for this penchant in the 90s. Then he stepped it up and fought Tito, then Shane, then Vargas, Bernard, and on it went ... he started really challenging himself. Let's be honest, though Oscar has been semi-retired since that loss to Trinidad in 1999. That's damn near a decade.

Oscar is chomping at the bit. The size difference is considerable. He is looking down as far as he used to look on the dimuntitive opponents he feasted on when he was an active fighter. It must be nostalgic. Training at Big Bear, where his pro career began, is appropriate. He's a good but not great fighter, now, who's semi-retired, sleeps in silk pajamas, and fights for sh*ts and giggles.

Now look at Manny Pacquaio. Manny is a great fighter -there's no doubt about that -you just don't embarass Barrera, compete like he did to take a disputed draw and decision against an inspired Marquez, and take a trilogy against Morales if you aren't a great fighter. He's in his prime and is deeply inspired. He's fighting for a poor country who has put their hopes and dreams on him... Sure, he's a full 4 inches shorter, yes, and Oscar still has a wicked left hook, and still looks very good against guys like Steve Forbes but Manny is murder inside, hits hard enough to get a WW's attention, and sets a pace that I don't expect a 35 year old De la Hoya to stay with. I don't care how hard the older man trains. Oscar is a tense fighter, he's officially a rich man (and I mean between the ears), a family man and a business man. He's as civilized a fighter as there has ever been. In other words, he doesn't have to fight anymore and knows that he's close to done. How many times does he discuss this in interviews?

Manny is completely focused. He's honed. He also has great agility and flexibility -elasticity even. He's loose and he's having fun in there.

Manny relishes battle. Oscar thinks about his wife.

Freddie Roach may have a secret, or he may be bluffing. I have the feeling that what he knows is that Oscar doesn't have the passion anymore to fight Manny the way you have to in order to tame him. Marquez does, and that's why he will beat Manny if they meet again. But Oscar? Nah. I never liked Oscar against guys who he can't control or who control him. Everyone is hung up on the size difference. I'm not. They look a bit like Duran and Leonard on paper. I see Pacquiao fighting Oscar like Duran did Leonard -but Leonard was sharp and ready and 24 years old. Oscar, well, if he can't hurt Manny early, I think that the smaller man will take over.

Good big men beat good smaller men, but not great smaller men. That's been proven enough to raise eyebrows. How great is Pacquiao? We'll find out tomorrow night.

Pacquiao. TKO late.


Fucking good effort this.

Apart from the bit about Oscar "thinking about his wife".

[Robbi]

[QUOTE]The thing is, you came back on, totally unabashed, and beginning your sentence with what 'you knew'.

Before the fight....

Pacquaio's speed and southpaw stance will be the main problems for De La Hoya.

I guess I knew. :lol:


That's what I have a problem with. Remember the other one? I can't recall the fight but you got it wrong and your first post back on here was what you "said to your mates just before the fight". :lol:

Hey, I was covering up as best with that one huh. Anyway, I got it wrong. Peter-Klitscho it was.......I called it for Peter. Thats two wrong. Ohhh dear, I better start improving quickly. And I better not sit on the fence either and not call a prediction. You had problems with myself on that one once before.

[My dinner with Conteh]

[And I better not sit on the fence either and not call a prediction. You had problems with myself on that one once before.


Everyone around here seems to have problems with you i've noticed. I can't think why? :good

[Robbi]

Everyone around here seems to have problems with you i've noticed. I can't think why? :good

Who's everyone? Listen to you who invited me back to continue an arguement only to delete your post at a later date. Moron. I guess you realised you made an ass of yourself looking for further trouble and thought otherwise. Good choice.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Who's everyone? Listen to you who invited me back to continue an arguement only to delete your post at a later date..


What the fuck you on about? The only thing I deleted the other week was a few insults.



Who's everyone?.

Everyone. You're the forum Irritant. You're like crabs. You are the Pubic Lice of ESB. :yep

[Robbi]

What the fuck you on about? The only thing I deleted the other week was a few insults.

You liar. After I said "I can handle you easily" and then said I was leaving to go to ASDA you replied went onto rumble on about I'll take you "anytime" in an arguement and you seemed very heated on it to put it mildly. You even said "I'll be waiting". Then you later deleted the post and left it with "I apoligise to everyone on ESB"

Don't fuckin deny it Conteh. My guess is that you will. And you did say "I'll be waiting", hence looking to further keep things going and generally being a dick. :lol:

[McGrain]

After I said "I can handle you easily" and then said I was leaving to go to ASDA

:lol:

[McGrain]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[My dinner with Conteh]

You liar. After I said "I can handle you easily" and then said I was leaving to go to ASDA you replied and said anytime, and went onto rumble on about I'll take you anytime in an arguement and you seemed very heated on it to put it mildly. You even said "I'll be waiting". Then you later deleted the post and left it with "I apoligise to everyone on ESB"


Yes, I said that and felt I overreacted. The thing is you weren't going to Asda obviously, so you were lying to get out of the confrontation. But now you've seen it, then we can have have numerous debates and arguments. You'll be no match for me. :good


Don't fuckin deny it Conteh. My guess is that you will. And you did say "I'll be waiting", hence looking to further keep things going and generally being a dick. :lol:


I won't deny anything. I felt bad at the time because you said something about me wanting to have 'the last word', so I deleted it as I thought it was going too far. But now I know you've read it, I can confirm I meant everything I said. :good

[Stonehands89]

You needed to stick your nose in, to no surprise. Hard to understand what I type? I have clearly stated above my thoughts on De La Hoya's style above, which Stonehands said was never "fluid and loose" at any point in his career. Did you have difficulty understanding it? :lol: Surely not.

One thing I certainly found difficult to understand recently was when you said Calzaghe was well past his prime when he fought Jones. When I picked upon that nonsense, I noticed you swerved away from it and said "you don't awnser my questions, so I won't yours" or something similar. Weeks prior, I never awnsered your question, rightly so, after you complained like a school kid as to why I never gave my prediction on the opening post of the thread. It really bothered you. I guess thats a little grudge you still have towards me.

And who's the rest of us?. Just you, and sometimes Stonehands. Not the majority. You're certainly over-exaggerating with that one JT. To an absurd degree.
Here's a little concession: . Whitaker was loose and fluid. Manny is loose and fluid. Oscar, if you like, wasn't fluid comparatively speaking. Compared to say, Alexis Arguello, Oscar could be fluid -particularly in the Hernandez fight.

Oscar was more of a stalker -he was normally calculating and he was cautious. This doesn't automatically exclude his demonstrating glimpses of other styles in certain fights where he was physically dominant or fighting a taller fighter, etc. His normal style was not "loose and fluid" and it became particularly the case as he aged. If "tense" bothers you, then I'll withdraw it.

[Robbi]

Want to know something. I'm not on here to make enemies with anyone. I'm here to chat about boxing. Not to become personal and insult people and generally be an asshole. I have next to zero history of this.

I did have one, I repeat on episode of a debate that got personal with Manassa under a year ago. It drifted away from boxing. And I had the deciency to message Manassa and shake hands on the matter. Forgotten about as far as I'm concerned.

When myself and Stonehands get involved with debating, it's boxing related. And me and him are cool with each other. He even said off his own back when quoting one of my posts "you're a solid poster". Surely he doesn't find me difficult to understand when reading any of my posts with such a conclusion on the quality of my posts. Thats a far cry from JT's nonsense that not just he, but also the majority of others take me wrong and find me difficult to understand what I type. I find that so far from the truth, It's actually humorous rather than insulting. I'm on here daily, chatting boxing, and never find anyone quoting me and not having a clue what I'm talking about. Certainlly not on a regular basis. Some of us make mistakes from time to time. Spelling mistakes or breaking down our points. It happens.

[Robbi]

Yes, I said that and felt I overreacted. The thing is you weren't going to Asda obviously, so you were lying to get out of the confrontation. But now you've seen it, then we can have have numerous debates and arguments. You'll be no match for me. :good

I won't deny anything. I felt bad at the time because you said something about me wanting to have 'the last word', so I deleted it as I thought it was going too far. But now I know you've read it, I can confirm I meant everything I said. :good

I did go to ASDA, eventually. Yes, not lying either. I was certainly a match for you earlier when you said "you're acting like you got the prediction right" Thats was broken down in stages. And you're wrong.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I did go to ASDA, eventually. Yes, not lying either. I was certainly a match for you earlier when you said "you're acting like you got the prediction right" Thats was broken down in stages. And you're wrong.

I'm not. It was the tone of your posts. You're one of those who try to make out they always get something right. Yeah, big deal. Everyone does, they just don't talk about it when they're totally wrong. "Speed will be a problem" and then a few sentences later said "the speed advantage is very slight" (or words to that effect).


Like i said, you hedge your bets. I used to do it, when I was about 12. My dad would ask me who'd win a fight and my response was probably in the realm of "Fighter A if he gets past round 6", he'd reply "what kind of prediction is that. Who will win?" Me: "Ok, Fighter B by early KO". If the fight then went the distance with Fighter A winning i wouldn't say "I said Fighter B would have to catch him early if he had a chance" whereas, you would.

[Robbi]

I'm not. It was the tone of your posts. You're one of those who try to make out they always get something right. Yeah, big deal. Everyone does, they just don't talk about it when they're totally wrong. "Speed will be a problem" and then a few sentences later said "the speed advantage is very slight" (or words to that effect)

Because I thought the speed factor might be only slight in favor of Pacquaio, that doesn't necassarily mean De La Hoya has an easy time if that was the case. Heard of timing and accuracy? If De La Hoya was slightly slower, does that really mean he doesn't have a problem with Pacquaio's speed?

Think about it...............


Like i said, you hedge your bets. I used to do it, when I was about 12. My dad would ask me who'd win a fight and my response was probably in the realm of "Fighter A if he gets past round 6", he'd reply "what kind of prediction is that. Who will win?" Me: "Ok, Fighter B by early KO". If the fight then went the distance with Fighter A winning i wouldn't say "I said Fighter B would have to catch him early if he had a chance" whereas, you would.

I did initially say within the prediction I got wrong. That "Pacquaio's speed and southpaw stance will be the main problems" And I was indeed correct. Was I trying to make out that well, I knew Pacquaio would win? Not at all.

[Robbi]

Leonard was probably quicker than Hearns in their first fight. But does that mean he never had a problem with Hearns' speed? Of course not.

Speed will be a problem" and then a few sentences later said "the speed advantage is very slight" (or words to that effect)

Makes perfect sense.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Leonard was probably quicker than Hearns in their first fight. But does that mean he never had a problem with Hearns' speed? Of course not.

Speed will be a problem" and then a few sentences later said "the speed advantage is very slight" (or words to that effect)

Makes perfect sense.


He had far more problems with Hearns' long reach than his speed. It was Tommy's sensible 'mid to long' range boxing that was winning the fight, when it came to exchanges at speed, then Leonard was the boss.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Because I thought the speed factor might be only slight in favor of Pacquaio, that doesn't necassarily mean De La Hoya has an easy time if that was the case. Heard of timing and accuracy? If De La Hoya was slightly slower, does that really mean he doesn't have a problem with Pacquaio's speed?

Think about it...............




I did initially say within the prediction I got wrong. That "Pacquaio's speed and southpaw stance will be the main problems" And I was indeed correct. Was I trying to make out that well, I knew Pacquaio would win? Not at all.


It was the tone. You began your post trying to extract some personal glory from a totally wrong prediction. That's what my problem was with.

[My dinner with Conteh]

If De La Hoya was slightly slower, does that really mean he doesn't have a problem with Pacquaio's speed?.

Well, true. But like I said earlier it's always a case of hedging your bets with you.

Pac won: "I knew speed would be the main problem". If Oscar won you'd say: "I told you the speed advantage was slight."

[Robbi]

He had far more problems with Hearns' long reach than his speed. It was Tommy's sensible 'mid to long' range boxing that was winning the fight, when it came to exchanges at speed, then Leonard was the boss.

Yeah, the height and reach were certainly factors. But Hearns' own speed was pretty sublime and played a role in the success he had. I would say Hearns' speed on the outside behind the jab, dropping in the ocassional right hand, etc, was the range where he was at his best. Once inside, it was Leonard who done the damage. The left hook to the body and head the main weapons.

I guess it was a combination of height, reach, speed, etc. Speed obviously not the only factor.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Yeah, the height and reach were certainly factors. But Hearns' own speed was pretty sublime and played a role in the success he had. I would say Hearns' speed on the outside behind the jab, dropping in the ocassional right hand, etc, was the range where he was at his best. Once inside, it was Leonard who done the damage. The left hook to the body and head.

I guess it was a combination of height, reach, speed, etc. Speed obviously not the only factor.


Ok, yeah. I agree here. Tommy was quick enough to give Leonard problems, but a pre-fight prediction, for me, should either say "Hearns' speed will cause problems as he's almost as fast" or "Leonard's speed will be the main problem for Tommy". Not both.

[Robbi]

Ok, yeah. I agree here. Tommy was quick enough to give Leonard problems, but a pre-fight prediction, for me, should either say "Hearns' speed will cause problems as he's almost as fast" or "Leonard's speed will be the main problem for Tommy". Not both.

Cool. Conteh, I'll offer you my hand on our previous nonsense. Which I'm sure you will agree on was rather 'handbags' between us the other day about "whit" and inviting each other with whos the best in arguements, etc. I guess one thing lead to another the other day. Really a load of nonsense when I think about it.

I'm not the type to keep things going and become enemies who can't stand the sight of each other.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Cool. Conteh, I'll offer you my hand on our previous nonsense. Which I'm sure you will agree on was rather 'handbags' between us the other day about "whit" and inviting each other with whos the best in arguements, etc. I guess one thing lead to another the other day. Really a load of nonsense when I think about it.

I'm not the type to keep things going and become enemies who can't stand the sight of each others.


Ok mate. Shake on it....



....withdraws hand and cock's a snook.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[dmille]

Classic Forums Thoughts on Pac-DLH?

Manny Armstrong
Henry Pacquiao

[My dinner with Conteh]

only jesting ;)

[Robbi]

Ok mate. Shake on it....



....withdraws hand and cock's a snook.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

:lol:

No hard feelings mate.

Graeme Sharp, thoughts? :good

[Stonehands89]

Want to know something. I'm not on here to make enemies with anyone. I'm here to chat about boxing. Not to become personal and insult people and generally be an asshole. I have next to zero history of this.

I did have one, I repeat on episode of a debate that got personal with Manassa under a year ago. It drifted away from boxing. And I had the deciency to message Manassa and shake hands on the matter. Forgotten about as far as I'm concerned.

When myself and Stonehands get involved with debating, it's boxing related. And me and him are cool with each other. He even said off his own back when quoting one of my posts "you're a solid poster". Surely he doesn't find me difficult to understand when reading any of my posts with such a conclusion on the quality of my posts. Thats a far cry from JT's nonsense that not just he, but also the majority of others take me wrong and find me difficult to understand what I type. I find that so far from the truth, It's actually humorous rather than insulting. I'm on here daily, chatting boxing, and never find anyone quoting me and not having a clue what I'm talking about. Certainlly not on a regular basis. Some of us make mistakes from time to time. Spelling mistakes or breaking down our points. It happens.
Your posts in this thread invited just the sort of exchange that you claim to be uncomfortable with.

The spirit of your posts to my opinion about Oscar's style was not "boxing related". You got stupid almost immediately. You began this whole matter with a challenge towards an opinion of mine, your challenge was answered, and then you got patronizing. I responded to that with comments about how I find you to be inconsistent in your arguments, which JT and Conteh also later affirmed. We're right. You should listen. You then got arrogant and disrespectful -"mumble jumble (sic) nonsense". I tried to be gentle and step out of it because you were about to invite some bad stuff from me, and what do yo do? You say I "don't have a clue."

JT then stepped in before I could and he offered you some sage advice. He may have saved you from getting your feelings hurt (your skin ain't "thick", my friend). JT was diplomatic and fair and you brought up something from another thread that was an attempt to deflect it. You also reacted to his statement about how "many of the rest of us" find your posts confusing and denied that it was anyone but JT and "sometimes" me. Conteh affirms with whistles that he is among those who find your posts confusing -thus beginning to prove JT's point. You attack him. He says that you "hedge your bets". (He's right. You did).

You have a pattern out here that resembles what happened in this thread. You may not accept this friendly advice, but I'd encourage you to re-read JT's first response and ponder it deeply.

[Robbi]

Your posts in this thread invited just the sort of exchange that you claim to be uncomfortable with.

I would have thought you would have read from where you left off and decided "Ahhh well, I'll let things go" considering the spirit over the last few posts between myself and Conteh was good natured and a shaking of the hands. I honestly thought this thread would have vanished and never be seen again. I certainly never planned on making a comeback myself. Yet you decide to pick out a post, unquoted might I add, and dedicate a massive in-depth reply and let the kittens out the bag. I mind when you and Manassa had heated arguement a month or two ago you accused him of continuing to come back and keep things heated. 7 hours later and you don't know when to give in.

I thought after the thread drifting down, and down, and further down, you would have decided enough. Perhaps you decided to make up for lost ground.

But I guess you were fully motivated in getting your say in and breaking things down, possibly knowing you'd pull me out of retirement. Not that I'm particularly 'outright' offended by the content of your post.

The spirit of your posts to my opinion about Oscar's style was not "boxing related". You got stupid almost immediately. You began this whole matter with a challenge towards an opinion of mine, your challenge was answered, and then you got patronizing. I responded to that with comments about how I find you to be inconsistent in your arguments, which JT and Conteh also later affirmed. We're right. You should listen. You then got arrogant and disrespectful -"mumble jumble (sic) nonsense". I tried to be gentle and step out of it because you were about to invite some bad stuff from me, and what do yo do? You say I "don't have a clue."

The spirit of my posts on Oscar's style is certainly far more boxing related that your latest constructed piece. I challenged your opinion, you awnsered, and I said "you don't have clue" which I believe you don't. Don't be offended by that my friend. It's just another way of someone saying that they strongly disagree with you. I can mind once, and I'd like you to take this on board. A poster said to me that they found your demeanour to be along the lines of "how dare you argue with me" when they were debating points with you once. You're not quite the royalty on here you maybe think you are.

After we were debating on Oscar's style JT pops out of nowhere with this.....

"It might be time to realise that many of the rest of us have a very hard time understanding a lot of what you type. Instead of considering the majority is taking you wrong 100% of the time it might be high time to ponder if you yourself might have a little to do with it"

Analyse that carefully Stonehands. What JT is saying is that "the rest of us" not sure how many people or who specifically he's referring to, find me difficult to understand. Bad spelling? someone reading my points and have no idea what I'm saying? Just not making plain and simple sense?

People disagree with me and with others, but not understaning what I say? Humorous, rather than hurtful. I responded with and guessed he means himself, Conteth, and you sometimes?. I had to say you sometimes as you recently said I was a "solid poster". JT, then goes on and says "the majority" I consider that majority of people on ESB take me wrong 100% of the time. Evidence? 100% as well he said. Funny. If JT himself takes me wrong, then thats him, not the majority. Add yourself to the equation in his opinion, still not the majority.

I post on here daily and very seldom, if at all, do I come across anyone finding me difficult to understand with a lot of what I type. He maybe should have referred to himself if he finds me difficult to understand, and not "many of the rest of us" and later "the majority".

Being inconsistent with an argument is one thing, understanding them is another.

What JT typed, many others would have found offensive. Especially when the person in question, me, is accussed of being difficult to understand by "many of the rest of us" as he put it. I decided it was worth a little chucke. Thick skin?


JT then stepped in before I could and he offered you some sage advice. He may have saved you from getting your feelings hurt (your skin ain't "thick", my friend). JT was diplomatic and fair and you brought up something from another thread that was an attempt to deflect it. You also reacted to his statement about how "many of the rest of us" find your posts confusing and denied that it was anyone but JT and "sometimes" me. Conteh affirms with whistles that he is among those who find your posts confusing -thus beginning to prove JT's point. You attack him. He says that you "hedge your bets". (He's right. You did).

You have a pattern out here that resembles what happened in this thread. You may not accept this friendly advice, but I'd encourage you to re-read JT's first response and ponder it deeply.


Exactly, JT stepped in. If he had any advice he maybe should have IM'd me instead. It certainly would have been more appropriate. He may have saved me from getting my feelings hurt, by who? Who was the first to drift away from boxing related posts? JT. I did say "you don't have a clue" but that was boxing related. I decided to bring up stuff from another thread based on his cheeky remark towards myself. And hey, it had to be done I'm afraid. I wasn't going to get personal and be abusive with bad language and call him every name under the sun. He's worth better than going down that route, and so am I.

And I never attacked Conteh after he whistled, I replied with "Toffee whistler" which is a reference to the soccer team he supports. Not offensive. Then it was back to talking boxing regarding my failed prediction. Pretty much good natured until he said "Everyone around here seems to have problems with you i've noticed" That invited a counter-punch. Everyone? is it occuring daily? weekly? I seldom have problems with anyone on here. I don't have a track record of being a disliked poster or generally a moron. Maybe so, but people don't show it towards me. I need the evidence.

[Stonehands89]

I would have thought you would have read from where you left off and decided "Ahhh well, I'll let things go" considering the spirit over the last few posts between myself and Conteh was good natured and a shaking of the hands. I honestly thought this thread would have vanished and never be seen again. I certainly never planned on making a comeback myself. Yet you decide to pick out a post, unquoted might I add, and dedicate a massive in-depth reply and let the kittens out the bag.A massive in-depth post? This response of yours dwarfs it. Come on. Conteh was kind and bowed out. I'm not done yet. You are, of course, free to ignore this post. I mind when you and Manassa had heated arguement a month or two ago you accused him of continuing to come back and keep things heated. 7 hours later and you don't know when to give in.Give in...? To what? Evidently, you're offended by advice. Three veteran posters are essentially saying the same thing to you and you can't accept it. Oh, and "seven hours" is about the time I was at work. I thought after the thread drifting down, and down, and further down, you would have decided enough. Perhaps you decided to make up for lost ground.You flatter yourself. But I guess you were fully motivated in getting your say in and breaking things down, possibly knowing you'd pull me out of retirement. Not that I'm particularly 'outright' offended by the content of your post.Not offended...? It's quite obvious you are having strong feelings about it. The spirit of my posts on Oscar's style is certainly far more boxing related that your latest constructed piece. I challenged your opinion, you awnsered, and I said "you don't have clue" which I believe you don't. Don't be offended by that my friend. It's just another way of someone saying that they strongly disagree with you. I can mind once, and I'd like you to take this on board. A poster said to me that they found your demeanour to be along the lines of "how dare you argue with me" when they were debating points with you once.Here you are bringing some shadowy critic to lend strength to your shot. You're indirect. That's further proof.You got (and you get) disrespectful, Robbi. There are consequences for that. You paid dearly for it out here, but you still don't get it and still can't accept your role in this. This whole thing is your bastard child. If I may speak on JT and Conteh's behalf -that alone doesn't bother any of us -the fact that it is far from the first time does. You have many bastard children and you don't pay child support. That last post I wrote was written in the hope that you'd see what you haven't seen yet... I see I've also failed. That's okay -I'm in good company. Whether it's royal or not is mere opinion. After we were debating on Oscar's style JT pops out of nowhere with this..... "It might be time to realise that many of the rest of us have a very hard time understanding a lot of what you type. Instead of considering the majority is taking you wrong 100% of the time it might be high time to ponder if you yourself might have a little to do with it" Analyse that carefully Stonehands. What JT is saying is that "the rest of us" not sure how many people or who specifically he's referring to, find me difficult to understand. Bad spelling? someone reading my points and have no idea what I'm saying? Just not making plain and simple sense? People disagree with me and with others, but not understaning what I say? Humorous, rather than hurtful. I responded with and guessed he means himself, Conteth, and you sometimes?. I had to say you sometimes as you recently said I was a "solid poster". JT, then goes on and says "the majority" I consider that majority of people on ESB take me wrong 100% of the time. Evidence? 100% as well he said. Funny. If JT himself takes me wrong, then thats him, not the majority. Add yourself to the equation in his opinion, still not the majority. I post on here daily and very seldom, if at all, do I come across anyone finding me difficult to understand with a lot of what I type. He maybe should have referred to himself if he finds me difficult to understand, and not "many of the rest of us" and later "the majority". Being inconsistent with an argument is one thing, understanding them is another. What JT typed, many others would have found offensive. Especially when the person in question, me, is accussed of being difficult to understand by "many of the rest of us" as he put it. I decided it was worth a little chucke. Thick skin?Bull. You completely missed his reasoning for stepping in. Completely! You're hung up on some misguided indignation about an incidental point. You strain gnats and swallow camels. Exactly, JT stepped in. If he had any advice he maybe should have IM'd me instead. It certainly would have been more appropriate. He may have saved me from getting my feelings hurt, by who? Who was the first to drift away from boxing related posts? JT. I did say "you don't have a clue" but that was boxing related. I decided to bring up stuff from another thread based on his cheeky remark towards myself. And hey, it had to be done I'm afraid. I wasn't going to get personal and be abusive with bad language and call him every name under the sun. He's worth better than going down that route, and so am I.First of all, you don't need to call someone a bleepity bleep to be offensive. Secondly, you're attempting to minimize your disrespect. Thirdly, did you ever think that JT's publicly stepping in was on my behalf because you were out of line? -and why should he privately PM you? That would be like a cop seeing a guy in a raincoat flashing his goods on Main Street and then taking him aside to spare his feelings. If you are going to get offensive out here -directly or indirectly, then you should expect a rebuke sometimes. And you should therefore thicken your skin. And I never attacked Conteh after he whistled, I replied with "Toffee whistler" which is a reference to the soccer team he supports. Not offensive. Then it was back to talking boxing regarding my failed prediction. Pretty much good natured until he said "Everyone around here seems to have problems with you i've noticed" That invited a counter-punch. Everyone? is it occuring daily? weekly? I seldom have problems with anyone on here. I don't have a track record of being a disliked poster or generally a moron. Maybe so, but people don't show it towards me. I need the evidence.Conteh made a point that you wouldn't accept. It's your turn to listen and listen well: One of the ways that you deflect criticism is to be a literalist. With JT, you got hung up on the definition of "most". With Conteh, you got hung up on the word "everyone". You close yourself off from points that strike close to home and hold on to incidentals like a drunk to a lamp post. Here's medicine. Open wide:What JT typed, many others would have found offensive. ---Many??! Who?! I want their names! I need evidence!!! And I repeat, you are also a problem to debate because of that very literalism -which is why I was reluctant to engage you on the meaning of "tense" and "fluid", etc. in the first place. ....Continue if you want, but I don't see the point.You're not quite the royalty on here you maybe think you are..Whatever ..Elvis has left the building.

[fists of fury]

Want to know something. I'm not on here to make enemies with anyone. I'm here to chat about boxing. Not to become personal and insult people and generally be an asshole. I have next to zero history of this.

I did have one, I repeat on episode of a debate that got personal with Manassa under a year ago. It drifted away from boxing. And I had the deciency to message Manassa and shake hands on the matter. Forgotten about as far as I'm concerned.

When myself and Stonehands get involved with debating, it's boxing related. And me and him are cool with each other. He even said off his own back when quoting one of my posts "you're a solid poster". Surely he doesn't find me difficult to understand when reading any of my posts with such a conclusion on the quality of my posts. Thats a far cry from JT's nonsense that not just he, but also the majority of others take me wrong and find me difficult to understand what I type. I find that so far from the truth, It's actually humorous rather than insulting. I'm on here daily, chatting boxing, and never find anyone quoting me and not having a clue what I'm talking about. Certainlly not on a regular basis. Some of us make mistakes from time to time. Spelling mistakes or breaking down our points. It happens.

I for one don't have a problem following what you say.
I guess emotions sometimes run high from most people here on certain topics and I'd expect no less from real fans of the sport.
It's all good at the end of the day.

[fists of fury]

C'mon guys...it's the festive season.

[ChrisPontius]

:fight

[JohnThomas1]

C'mon guys...it's the festive season.

Hey i made my point and let it go no matter how many times it was brought up again (not by SH)

It was missed in a big way and that was all she wrote. SH89 tried to explain my point to no avail, he was quite kind really in his prior debate.

No need to quote or reply to this one Robb, for god's sakes :lol:

I'm a festive guy FOF

:yep

[Stonehands89]

:fight
oh man... I'm definitely stepping out of this.



Season's Greetings to all on ESB.

[Robbi]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Points could be addressed further on this thread but sometimes it's best to walk rather than repeating a tiresome cycle. Arnold Schwarzenegger said in The Terminator, "I'll be back" I certaintly won't be.

Going, going, going, GONE.

:hand

[enquirer]

WOW...!!! More entertaining than many world title bouts....:lol: