Paquiao now takes his place among the pound for pound greats of history

[janitor]

You saw it happen gentlemen.

I jokingly suggested before the fight that if Paquiao won this would be like Barbados Joe Walcott destroying Joe Choynski and there turned out to be a few paralels.

[RockyJim]

Manny is a great FIGHTER....no dancing..no shuffles..no waving to the crowd...the man is
a great fighter!!!

[young griffo]

You saw it happen gentlemen.

I jokingly suggested before the fight that if Paquiao won this would be like Barbados Joe Walcott destroying Joe Choynski and there turned out to be a few paralels.
Was Choynski a washed up,old super-rich promoter/part-time fighter?

Seriously I don't know the circumstances surrounding Walcott-Choynski but Oscar looked fucking terrible today.

No knock on Manny who's already proven himself to be a modern great but Oscar looked to be a shell of the husk of the endosperm of the fighter he used to be.Manny still deserves full kudo's for the jump in weight and win against the bigger fighter but I was aghast at how poor and lacking in mettle De La Hoya was today.

[Joe E]

Was Choynski a washed up,old super-rich promoter/part-time fighter?

Seriously I don't know the circumstances surrounding Walcott-Choynski but Oscar looked fucking terrible today.

No knock on Manny who's already proven himself to be a modern great but Oscar looked to be a shell of the husk of the endosperm of the fighter he used to be.Manny still deserves full kudo's for the jump in weight and win against the bigger fighter but I was aghast at how poor and lacking in mettle De La Hoya was today. I didn't see the fight,damn. But read the blow by blow over in general. Was De La Hoya that shot?

[red cobra]

As Sarah Palin would say, "You Betcha"!

[Mantequilla]

I've been saying for ages Oscar has become a hack and a conman, constantly putting himself into undeserving "superfights" that fuck up the deserving active contenders in the division.He's totally finished and it seemed moving back down to Welter did him no favours eihter.

Loved this fight.Great performance by PAc, but Oscar should have retired years ago.

[The Kurgan]

Um, I think you'll find he already is there AND had a reserved seat years ago.

[Maxmomer]

Put into historical perspective, I don't think this win is as big an accomplishment as many are hyping it up to be. Still a great win, but I wasn't surprised.

[GPater11093]

oscar was shocking i think he must have had trouble with the weight

but saying that pac deserves full credit like oscar said

pac fought a great fight and won but it was sad to see oscar take a beating he should retire

is this the best victory a small lightweight coming up to welter and beating the best light middle at welter

[BOGART]

Was Choynski a washed up,old super-rich promoter/part-time fighter?

Seriously I don't know the circumstances surrounding Walcott-Choynski but Oscar looked fucking terrible today.

No knock on Manny who's already proven himself to be a modern great but Oscar looked to be a shell of the husk of the endosperm of the fighter he used to be.Manny still deserves full kudo's for the jump in weight and win against the bigger fighter but I was aghast at how poor and lacking in mettle De La Hoya was today.


Good post. DLH looked awful last night. Of course Pacquaio had a lot to do with that but DLH looked ripe for the picking and Pacquaio was the right guy with the right style to do so. It was obviously a big win for Pacquaio but I think over time his win over Barrera 1 and his Marquez victory may be viewed as better wins.

I thought DLH would beat a game Pacquaio so to see what happened last night was a bit shocking. I almost felt sorry for DLH who I thought was simply going to turn his back and quit in the middle of the ring on more than one occasion. Pacquaio was already a great before last night and this will help make him more of a superstar. But when the dust settles from this it will be seen as a great, smaller, prime guy viciously destroying a bigger, shot, former great.

Still, great for Pacquaio and his fans he proved a lot of people wrong. I'm really interested in what Pacquaio does next. I've become a big admirer of him and the fact he is constantly facing big challenges is one of those reasons. I hope he gets around to fighting Hatton, Mayweather, Cotto, Marquez 3, Juan Diaz, Mosley and a couple others but I'll settle for even a few of those. As for DLH, yeah he should consider retiring but I actually hope he sticks around for one more fight-carefully picked though. I hate to see him go out like that. A loss would have been one thing but a public flogging is something different.

[Joe E]

As Sarah Palin would say, "You Betcha"! Thanks Red.

[GPater11093]

rakelie ok i exaggerated abit but oscar is still in the top 5 light middles

[Sweet Pea]

Oscar is clearly shot, he's nowhere near a top 5 LMW. Not to mention the drop down to WW effected him even more.

People really need to put this into perspective. He couldn't even conclusively beat the elite fighters at his prime weight, and you think he'll be beating the elites from 147-154?

[Rumsfeld]

As Sarah Palin would say, "You Betcha"!

:rofl:rofl:rofl

[PowerPuncher]

Dzinziruk
Williams
Forrest
Martinez
Philipps
Alcine
Spinks

are all better than him imo.

Williams - yep in his prime
Dzinderuk - probably but largely untested
Forrest - lost to Mayorga twice who Delahoya decapited 2 1/2 years ago. Prob better than Oscar now
Martinez - unproven
Alcine - unproven and bombed out by Santos, who was schooled to Dzinderuk
Spinks - arguably lost to Mayorga aswell as Judah and fought a close 1 with:
Phillips - old journeyman

[Robbi]

De La Hoya's lost too many of his significant fights. Too many close decisions either way as well. A few decisions he won were debatable to some people, same with his losses.

He's been good for the sport over the years. It's now time for him to retire and not be in denial with himself about continuing. He doesn't have it anymore. Lets hope he doesn't say "Well, the weight was the problem and it effected my performance. I'm far from finished. I'll be back and contiune my career at jr middleweight"

Mosley is next to the electric chair.

[brownpimp88]

Pac is the best, what other ex flyweight is gonna win belts at lightweight and beat de la hoya at 147. Mosley is next, its time for him to get taken out.

[Stonehands89]

Manny Pacquiao is a great fighter.

I've been adamant for years -in barber shop conversations, on ESB against Duran's detractors, in writing book reviews for "Four Kings", that small men -Lightweights and below- who rise up and defeat bigger champions are something extra-special. Duran was a small man with a LW frame who was fighting great welters and great middles and sometimes defeating them ...even at an advanced age.

Pacquiao is a featherweight. His beating De La Hoya is not akin to Duran's beating Leonard, but it is comparable. Add to this his overcoming not one but three great recent Mexicans -a warrior, a boxer-puncher, and a technician, and you are looking at an all-time great.

He's a rare beast from the far east. And he ain't done yet...

[Robbi]

Manny Pacquiao is a great fighter.

I've been adamant for years -in barber shop conversations, on ESB against Duran's detractors, in writing book reviews for "Four Kings", that small men -Lightweights and below- who rise up and defeat bigger champions are something extra-special. Duran was a small man with a LW frame who was fighting great welters and great middles and sometimes defeating them ...even at an advanced age.

Pacquiao is a featherweight. His beating De La Hoya is not akin to Duran's beating Leonard, but it is comparable. Add to this his overcoming not one but three great recent Mexicans -a warrior, a boxer-puncher, and a technician, and you are looking at an all-time great.

He's a rare beast from the far east. And he ain't done yet...

Marquez beat him twice Pacquaio IMO, excluding any bias with me being a Marquez fan.

Pacquaio is a great fighter. His record speaks for itself.

How did you score those fights?

[Sweet Pea]

Pacquiao is a featherweight. His beating De La Hoya is not akin to Duran's beating Leonard, but it is comparable. Add to this his overcoming not one but three great recent Mexicans -a warrior, a boxer-puncher, and a technician, and you are looking at an all-time great.You have to take into account how far gone Oscar was, he was basically a sitting duck in the ring. Still a great performance from Pac though.

And I'm with Robbi, I didn't have him beating Marquez in either of their fights.

[Vanboxingfan]

Oscar is clearly shot, he's nowhere near a top 5 LMW. Not to mention the drop down to WW effected him even more.

People really need to put this into perspective. He couldn't even conclusively beat the elite fighters at his prime weight, and you think he'll be beating the elites from 147-154?

I'm not sure if it would warrant a thread or not, but I thought about this fight before it happened and thought De La Hoya would win, but in the back of my mind was the Jones experience. It seems to me when a fighter past their mid 30's tries dropping weight, it's potentially a disasterous result. (ie Jones, Byrd, De la Hoya). I'm not sure if this is a pattern or not, but it may very well be.

[sweet_scientist]

Pac is a great fighter, but he is not a dominant fighter in the mold of a Henry Armstrong. That's for sure.

He lost to Morales, and he arguably lost to Marquez too. I don't rate Morales or Marquez as highly as most, but I do rate Morales the better of the two.

Pac's one true great win is his beatdown on Barrera. His victories over Morales and Oscar were impressive, but both guys were pretty much dead it's fair to say.

He has beaten a lot of fighters through the divisions and so that puts him up there as a p4p'er, but I wouldn't favour him over many elites at any division other than featherweight.

Again, that contrasts to Armstrong, who was a killer from 130-147.

Why am I even comparing him to Armstrong? Because he is that good that he is worthy of comparison, even if he falls short.

[Stonehands89]

Marquez beat him twice Pacquaio IMO, excluding any bias with me being a Marquez fan.

Pacquaio is a great fighter. His record speaks for itself.

How did you score those fights?

And I'm with Robbi, I didn't have him beating Marquez in either of their fights.

First of all -great avatar, Robbi.

I wrote that Pacquaio overcame the Three. Whether he had help from the judges is beside the point. I thought Marquez won the last one and possibly the first one. If they fight again soon enough, I'd go with Marquez to beat Manny if perchance they fight at 135 -you heard that one hear first too.

[McGrain]

I don't think Marquez will beat Pacquiao at 140. Pacquiao looks, to a degree, like the weight making shakles are off. I'd favour him in a third fight, Roach has said that Manny won't fight below 140 I believe.

I have the first one a draw and the second one very close for Marquez. However, if a fight is very very close, I go with the judges.

[Robbi]

First of all -great avatar, Robbi.

I wrote that Pacquaio overcame the Three. Whether he had help from the judges is beside the point. I thought Marquez won the last one and possibly the first one. If they fight again soon enough, I'd go with Marquez to beat Manny -you heard that one hear first too.

Here is how I see the first fight.

Pacquaio won the first two rounds, clearly. The first one rather wide with the three knockdowns. Marquez was somewhat competitive during the 2nd, but was backed up and outlanded with power punches. Marquez IMO took the 3rd clearly with sharper counter-punching. Competitive round nonetheless.

Overall, over the last 10 rounds I had Pacquaio winning one round clearly. And possibly another, which was the last round that could have gone either way. I can't give Pacquaio 3 of the last 10 rounds. Not possible IMHO. While Marquez wasn't battering Pacquaio convincingly during the rounds he won clearly, lets say 10-9 rounds that were just about 10-8. That wasn't the case. But he was winning them without dispute.

Marquez clearly outlanded him and won the rounds clearly with better defense, ring generalship, and most importantly, clean punching. When each round finished, no doubt at all in that Marquez had another in the bank, then another, etc.

Pacquaio was predictable throughout the first fight. After dropping Marquez three times during the opening round, that possibly made him predictable. His jab wasn't a jolting weapon, it was used as range finder. The left hand was telegraphed and became easy to read. Marquez's jabs, bodyshots, counter-punching, and uppercuts were clearly finding the mark on a regular basis.

I think I had Marquez winning it by 2-3 points. While that seems close, it was clear.

[dpw417]

I consider Manny a great fighter, he did everything asked of him against DLH...It's maybe easy to nitpick now...but last night, he entered the ring an underdog. Bottom line is Pacquiao fought a beautiful fight and carried out a brilliant gameplan...Nuff said.

[DINAMITA]

I think Pacquiao is now a top 50 OAT ATG, I really do. His achievements speak for themselves - the first former flyweight world champion in history to win a title at lightweight, and now to win at welterweight. He really is a special fighter.

Realistically, if Pac fights Hatton he will win IMO. Speed kills. That will be world titles in 6 weight classes - if he can actually win a belt at 147 then that's the Magnificent Seven. I doubt any other fighter in history will ever win straps at fly and welter.

Throw in a possible SUPERFIGHT with Floyd Mayweather Jr after Pac beats Hatton (this fight will surely happen next year) and a defining 3rd fight with Marquez (I would heavily favour Pac to beat him above 135), and surely we are talking serious, serious ATG status, top 20 OAT?

Obviously this post is almost all my own dewy-eyed speculation, but it's all distinctly possible IMO. Legendary status beckons...

[DINAMITA]

Here is how I see the first fight.

Pacquaio won the first two rounds, clearly. The first one rather wide with the three knockdowns. Marquez was somewhat competitive during the 2nd, but was backed up and outlanded with power punches. Marquez IMO took the 3rd clearly with sharper counter-punching. Competitive round nonetheless.

Overall, over the last 10 rounds I had Pacquaio winning one round clearly. And possibly another, which was the last round that could have gone either way. I can't give Pacquaio 3 of the last 10 rounds. Not possible IMHO. While Marquez wasn't battering Pacquaio convincingly during the rounds he won clearly, lets say 10-9 rounds that were just about 10-8. That wasn't the case. But he was winning them without dispute.

Marquez clearly outlanded him and won the rounds clearly with better defense, ring generalship, and most importantly, clean punching. When each round finished, no doubt at all in that Marquez had another in the bank, then another, etc.

Pacquaio was predictable throughout the first fight. After dropping Marquez three times during the opening round, that possibly made him predictable. His jab wasn't a jolting weapon, it was used as range finder. The left hand was telegraphed and became easy to read. Marquez's jabs, bodyshots, counter-punching, and uppercuts were clearly finding the mark on a regular basis.

I think I had Marquez winning it by 2-3 points. While that seems close, it was clear.

As I remember it, I scored their 1st fight as a draw by virtue of the 10-7 first round, and scored the second fight to Marquez by one point. No shame whatsoever in those results against the world p4p#2 who is basically a super, super boxer IMO. If they fought again above 135, I strongly favour Pac as I think he will cope with the additional weight far better than JMM. I hope JMM gets big fights now so he improves his own legacy too, he deserves it. I'd like to see him face Campbell, Diaz, and Guzman, and become the king of 135. I believe he could do it. That would seal his own ATG status too.

[Drew101]

I think what impressed me about pacquiao in this fight wasn't necessarily the fact that he defeated a much larger fighter, or even that it was so one-sided. What impressed me was the way in which he defeated DLH; by keeping on his toes and boxing throughout the fight.

The Pacquiao of earlier fights...you know, the one that constantly relied on two right jabs to set up the inevitable followup left cross...is gone. The one that replaced him last night is considerably more versatile, and probably stays with any of the greats at 140lb in head-to-head matchups.

He's a hell of a fighter...and he's turned into a hell of a boxer, too. Gotta give him that.

[Mendoza]

You saw it happen gentlemen.

I jokingly suggested before the fight that if Paquiao won this would be like Barbados Joe Walcott destroying Joe Choynski and there turned out to be a few paralels.


I remember the first time I saw Pacquiao on a big stage. It was on the under card of Tyson vs Lewis. My thoughts then were, this kid is some puncher with a style that gives the fan's their monies worth. Nothing has changed since.

Great fighter.

[fists of fury]

I think what impressed me about pacquiao in this fight wasn't necessarily the fact that he defeated a much larger fighter, or even that it was so one-sided. What impressed me was the way in which he defeated DLH; by keeping on his toes and boxing throughout the fight.

The Pacquiao of earlier fights...you know, the one that constantly relied on two right jabs to set up the inevitable followup left cross...is gone. The one that replaced him last night is considerably more versatile, and probably stays with any of the greats at 140lb in head-to-head matchups.

He's a hell of a fighter...and he's turned into a hell of a boxer, too. Gotta give him that.

This is true. Many thought Pac could only fight one way, but he has proven much more versatile than people gave him credit for.

[JohnThomas1]

I think what impressed me about pacquiao in this fight wasn't necessarily the fact that he defeated a much larger fighter, or even that it was so one-sided. What impressed me was the way in which he defeated DLH; by keeping on his toes and boxing throughout the fight.

The Pacquiao of earlier fights...you know, the one that constantly relied on two right jabs to set up the inevitable followup left cross...is gone. The one that replaced him last night is considerably more versatile, and probably stays with any of the greats at 140lb in head-to-head matchups.

He's a hell of a fighter...and he's turned into a hell of a boxer, too. Gotta give him that.

Excellent point.

[Quick Cash]

I don't think Marquez will beat Pacquiao at 140. Pacquiao looks, to a degree, like the weight making shakles are off. I'd favour him in a third fight, Roach has said that Manny won't fight below 140 I believe.

I have the first one a draw and the second one very close for Marquez. However, if a fight is very very close, I go with the judges.

I agree. Marquez will probably lose the third confrontation, if it were to happen, with Pacquiao at 135 or above.

I had Marquez winning the first by a point 113-112, and losing the return bout also by a point 114-113. These two fights are effectively draws, as far as I see it.

[GPater11093]

i cant remember the first fight for some reason i remember bits but not all so i cant comment on it

the second fight i had pacman up by 1

but like people have been saying pacquio is going to go down as an ATG. he has an exciting style but can box when he needs to like he showed against oscar.

he has become the first flyweight to become lightweight champ that is some feat but then to go on and beat an ex p4p no1 (albeit when he was shot and weight drained) in an convincing manner that is some achievement.

i think pacman could be 1 of the most popular fighters ever in a world of constant celebrity he is worshipped in his home country, he is an honest man who has a great charisma about him and i believe he can kindle some reintrest in to boxing again.

[Minotauro]

I think what impressed me about pacquiao in this fight wasn't necessarily the fact that he defeated a much larger fighter, or even that it was so one-sided. What impressed me was the way in which he defeated DLH; by keeping on his toes and boxing throughout the fight.

The Pacquiao of earlier fights...you know, the one that constantly relied on two right jabs to set up the inevitable followup left cross...is gone. The one that replaced him last night is considerably more versatile, and probably stays with any of the greats at 140lb in head-to-head matchups.

He's a hell of a fighter...and he's turned into a hell of a boxer, too. Gotta give him that.

Great post, gotta agree with this I was impressed by his versatility in this fight he boxed very well his improvement has been vast.

[janitor]

[quote=Sweet Pea;3004364]You have to take into account how far gone Oscar was, he was basically a sitting duck in the ring. Still a great performance from Pac though.


Have you forgotten that Oscar held the then pound for pound number one Floyd Mayweather to a SD last year?

What about the problems Paquiao had to overcome such as fighting a pound for pound great several weight classes above his natural fighting weight?

Paquiao was a former lineal champion at flyweight who defeated a former lineal champion at weltewrweight and junior middleweight.

I honestly cant find any historical paralel for that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sweet Pea]

Have you forgotten that Oscar held the then pound for pound number one Floyd Mayweather to a SD last year?
No, but that's irrelevant considering how shitty Oscar has looked since then (even against Forbes at JMW, where he didn't appear weight-drained), and especially how awful he looked moving down in weight, which clearly took an even greater toll on his aging body. Not only was he nowhere near a prime Oscar, he was nowhere near the one that faced Floyd at 154 a year and a half ago.

What about the problems Paquiao had to overcome such as fighting a pound for pound great several weight classes above his natural fighting weight?Pacquiao is a physical marvel the way he has been able to keep his abilities at different weights, which is why I do rank him highly P4P, but still, it's pretty obvious the weight effected a very faded Oscar moving down far more than it effected a prime Pacquiao moving up.


Paquiao was a former lineal champion at flyweight who defeated a former lineal champion at weltewrweight and junior middleweight.

I honestly cant find any historical paralel for that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You're acting as if this is the same as beating a current WW or JMW champion, when in fact it's simply beating a completely shot, weight drained former belt-holder in these classes, who himself started at 130.

Oscar was a dead man walking on Saturday, that much is obvious to anyone who watched the fight. It's not all about what's on paper.

Still a great performance from Pacquiao, but keep it in perspective.

[janitor]

[quote=Sweet Pea;3011508]No, but that's irrelevant considering how shitty Oscar has looked since then (even against Forbes at JMW, where he didn't appear weight-drained), and especially how awful he looked moving down in weight, which clearly took an even greater toll on his aging body. Not only was he nowhere near a prime Oscar, he was nowhere near the one that faced Floyd at 154 a year and a half ago.


It is easy to draw this conclusion with the benefit of hindsight but it ress in no small part on the fact that Oscar lost to Paquiao.

If he was so obviously shot before this fight then why did virtualy nobody give Paquiao a chance?

Also you dont know what will happen in DLH's next fight. What if he beats a legitimate contender at welter or juniour middle?


Pacquiao is a physical marvel the way he has been able to keep his abilities at different weights, which is why I do rank him highly P4P, but still, it's pretty obvious the weight effected a very faded Oscar moving down far more than it effected a prime Pacquiao moving up.

You're acting as if this is the same as beating a current WW or JMW champion, when in fact it's simply beating a completely shot, weight drained former belt-holder in these classes, who himself started at 130.


Even if DLH was past it I cant find a paralel for a champion at flyweight going on to beat a fighter who was a champion at welterweight and elite at that weight in the past year.

That is one hell of a transition to make at world level and I dont think I can ignore it in a historical context.

[Sweet Pea]

It is easy to draw this conclusion with the benefit of hindsight but it ress in no small part on the fact that Oscar lost to Paquiao.

If he was so obviously shot before this fight then why did virtualy nobody give Paquiao a chance?
Because he wasn't obviously shot prior, not at JMW anyway (though he was clearly well past his prime and continuing to fade). Nobody knew how badly effected Oscar would be by the move down to Welterweight. On another note, nobody knew how well Pacquiao could perform at the weight either, which is why I do give him major credit for the fact that he was able to adapt so well to the weight. I don't give him credit for beating a legitimately dangerous fighter there however, nor do I think he'd beat any top WW's, even after what we saw on Saturday. It was very clear just from watching the fight how completely shot Oscar was. Apparently he was coming in lighter than Pacquiao and had been coming in at extremely low weights during training in preparation for this fight for a some time. This was a strategy by his management to get him better accustomed to the weight, and it completely backfired.


Also you dont know what will happen in DLH's next fight. What if he beats a legitimate contender at welter or juniour middle?
He won't. That much I can guarantee, not at WW anyway, and I seriously doubt at JMW either after what this whole process has taken out of him, even if he is more comfortable there. I think it's safe to say he's done as any relevant fixture in boxing, at any weight.

Even if DLH was past it I cant find a paralel for a champion at flyweight going on to beat a fighter who was a champion at welterweight and elite at that weight in the past year. At what point in the past year (or two, or three) has Oscar been an elite Welterweight?

The problem with presenting it that way is that it gives the impression that Pacquiao was somehow a natural Flyweight, when that is very far from the truth. He was probably natural at around 130 or so, but his muscular and athletic genetics make him able to adjust amazingly well to different weights, which is the main thing about him that is so extraordinary in my view. Still, he was a young, weight-drained kid at Flyweight, yet to even grow into his body or especially his skills. Not to mention his championship win over Sasakul was a bit of a fluke IMO (as Sasakul was dominating the fight prior to carelessly coasting), and the result wouldn't have been the same in any amount of rematches, nor against any elite Flyweight. Still, he won it fair and square, no denying that. It still doesn't take away from the fact that he wasn't much of a relevant fixture at Flyweight outside of that one performance, and that he was far from at his natural weight there himself.


That is one hell of a transition to make at world level and I dont think I can ignore it in a historical context.
Again, Pacquiao's physical genetics and abilities are astounding, and his ability to fight so effectively at completely different weights is what ranks him highly in a P4P sense for me, but at singular weights he's never been head and shoulders above, or even established himself ahead of, any of the elites. He should rank higher than them in a P4P sense because of the abilities in weight-jumping I've highlighted, but I don't rank him among the very best of all time at any particular weight class, nor do I rank him as the best in any current weight class (even his natural one), even if he's capable of holding his own with any of them.

In that sense he's very difficult for me to rate overall.

[janitor]

[quote=Sweet Pea;3012168]
At what point in the past year (or two, or three) has Oscar been an elite Welterweight?


Presumably anybody able to hold Floyd Mayweather to a SD would have to be regarded as a world class fighter at the weight the fight was at.

The problem with presenting it that way is that it gives the impression that Pacquiao was somehow a natural Flyweight, when that is very far from the truth.

I apreciate this but he was able to fight at world level and establish himself as a champion at flyweight. That is a verry diferent thing from simply having fought at that weight.

He was probably natural at around 130 or so, but his muscular and athletic genetics make him able to adjust amazingly well to different weights, which is the main thing about him that is so extraordinary in my view.

You almost seem to take this ability for granted when asessing the historic importance of this win.


Again, Pacquiao's physical genetics and abilities are astounding, and his ability to fight so effectively at completely different weights is what ranks him highly in a P4P sense for me, but at singular weights he's never been head and shoulders above, or even established himself ahead of, any of the elites. He should rank higher than them in a P4P sense because of the abilities in weight-jumping I've highlighted, but I don't rank him among the very best of all time at any particular weight class, nor do I rank him as the best in any current weight class (even his natural one), even if he's capable of holding his own with any of them.

In that sense he's very difficult for me to rate overall.


I sort of see where you are coming from but Mickey Walker never established himself as being head and shoulders above the competition at any given weight.

Part of that was because he was among other great fighters and part of it was because he was matched hard and matched regularly from early in his career.

What will history say about Paquiao?

[la-califa]

To be truly considered Pac has to finish this buisness with Marquez. Too many doubts as to weather he won the fights or not. But they have to fight soon. Time is not on Marquez' side...

[sweet_scientist]

Janitor, where do you rate Marquez and Morales? Do you rate them near Harry Greb and Tommy Loughran? Because those are the fighters Walker was having trouble distinguishing himself from.

Bit of a difference imo.

[Sweet Pea]

Presumably anybody able to hold Floyd Mayweather to a SD would have to be regarded as a world class fighter at the weight the fight was at.
That fight was at Junior Middleweight.

I apreciate this but he was able to fight at world level and establish himself as a champion at flyweight. That is a verry diferent thing from simply having fought at that weight. In some respects yes, but not really in Pacquiao's case, as he never sustained any sort of longevity there, and in his very next title fight was blown out in 4 rounds by Singsurat. And again, the way he won the title in the first place was pretty flukey IMO, and he showed his lack of skills and potential at the weight in that fight.

You almost seem to take this ability for granted when asessing the historic importance of this win.How do you mean? It's the main area I'm willing to give him full credit for, and the main area which makes him such a P4P marvel IMO. I don't believe he's spectacular or ahead of the game at any single weight class (or even neccessarily at the top in any weight class) but his ability to fight so effectively at so many weights is quite extraordinary, which is why he'd rank above most of the guys capable of beating him at certain weights in a P4P sense.


I sort of see where you are coming from but Mickey Walker never established himself as being head and shoulders above the competition at any given weight.

Part of that was because he was among other great fighters and part of it was because he was matched hard and matched regularly from early in his career.
That's not neccessarily the case with Pacquiao though, not yet anyways, aside from the big 3 he faced at 126-130 (two of which were fading fighters, one of which he arguably never beat).

Also, it's not as if Pacquiao has made his career fighting consistently bigger men, or consistently bigger elite men the way Walker has. He's really only once faced a significantly bigger fighter, and that was the shot Oscar we saw on Saturday. Otherwise he's been well within his range.


What will history say about Paquiao?
That he was a P4P great, no questions about it, I'm just not prepared to go overboard on him just yet.

[TBooze]

You saw it happen gentlemen.

I jokingly suggested before the fight that if Paquiao won this would be like Barbados Joe Walcott destroying Joe Choynski and there turned out to be a few paralels.

To make someone great overnight is to cheapen the value of the word great. Let's wait until he has retired then debate the merits of his potential greatness before coming to such bold conclusions.

That said, Paciquao has been ticking all the right boxers on the road to Valhalla and Sunday's fight was another positive step.

[teeto]

To make someone great overnight is to cheapen the value of the word great. Let's wait until he has retired then debate the merits of his potential greatness before coming to such bold conclusions.

That said, Paciquao has been ticking all the right boxers on the road to Valhalla and Sunday's fight was another positive step.
His seat at Valhalla is reserved.

[TBooze]

His seat at Valhalla is reserved.

But only time will tell if he is going to lose his deposit, on that reservation!

Everything is looking OK at the moment, but this is a strange sport.....

[teeto]

But only time will tell if he is going to lose his deposit, on that reservation!

Everything is looking OK at the moment, but this is a strange sport.....
Haha, it is, personally though i think he's done a lot and dont see his spot being taken off him. He's a real winner and has some ring presence for a guy his size!

[TBooze]

Haha, it is, personally though i think he's done a lot and dont see his spot being taken off him. He's a real winner and has some ring presence for a guy his size!

It is indeed seemingly his spot to lose.