Is PBF a Top 5 ATG at LW?

[kg0208]

Based on accomplishments, resume, H2H? Discuss...

[brooklyn1550]

Accomplishments and Resume? No way - Roberto Duran, Benny Leonard, Pernell Whitaker, Henry Armstrong, Joe Gans, Carlos Ortiz, Ike Williams, Tony Canzoneri, and Alexis Arguello among others all accomplished more at 135 than PBF. Floyd has the WBC Title, a win over Phillip N'dou and two wins over Jose Luis Castillo (one win that could have gone either way). Take Carlos Ortiz for example who defeated Joe Brown, Battling Torres, Flash Elorde, Ismael Laguna, and Duilio Loi - clearly a much better resume than Floyd. I'll also use Pernell Whitaker who unified the WBC, WBA, and IBF lightweight titles and defeated Azumah Nelson, Jose Luis Ramirez, Juan Nazario, Jorge Paez, Greg Haugen, Louie Lomeli, and Policarpo Diaz - also a much better resume than Floyd's.

Head to Head? - You could make an argument that head to head, there aren't 5 guys who would beat him at lightweight. However, I would pick Roberto Duran, Pernell Whitaker, and Henry Armstrong over Mayweather and Ortiz, Williams, prime Mosley, and prime Chavez at 135 would have excellent chances as well and I would pick all of them over Floyd. I am not going to discuss Gans and Leonard because most people haven't seen footage of them.

[kg0208]

H2H I think he may be top 10. Not sure considering the trouble he had with Castillo. Chavez is Castillo on roids.

[Two Fisted Piston]

WTF!?! Floyd had 4 fights at 130lbs how can he be a 130 ATG??
You could make an arguement about Head 2 Head though:good

[kg0208]

WTF!?! Floyd had 4 fights at 130lbs how can he be a 130 ATG??
You could make an arguement about Head 2 Head though:good

You mean 135 right?

[Ramshall1]

WTF!?! Floyd had 4 fights at 130lbs how can he be a 130 ATG??
You could make an arguement about Head 2 Head though:good


LW is 135 wey.

[bladerunner]

at 130 yes at 135 not even close.

[Illmatic]

Nah, too many great lightweights who made long runs at that weight....Ross, Canzoneri, Whitaker, Duran, Ortiz....

[Thread Stealer]

No, but he is at junior lightweight.

[kg0208]

Absolutely, I have him at #2 behind Arguello at 130. Case can easily be made he is #1.

[Ramshall1]

Absolutely, I have him at #2 behind Arguello at 130. Case can easily be made he is #1.

:asskiss

[kg0208]

:asskiss
You disagree? Or are you kissing my ass?

[Ramshall1]

You disagree?

I agree that you have a serious case of Fraud-cock in mouth disease.

[kg0208]

I agree that you have a serious case of Fraud-cock in mouth disease.

So then you're just here to act like a child. You have no actual insight.

[Drew101]

Absolutely, I have him at #2 behind Arguello at 130. Case can easily be made he is #1.

I actually have him at #1 at 130lbs, because I think his opposition, on the whole, was slightly better than Arguello's, and because I think he might have been a bit more dominant, overall.

Still, I think cases could be made for four, and possibly even five men at the weight ( PBF, Arguello, Nelson, Chavez, and possibly the very underrated brian Mitchell).

At lightweight, he can't be rated, because he simply didn't get enough work done at the weight. Head to head, he probably stays with pretty much any of the greats at 135lbs, but I prefer to base my ratings on accomplishments, and, for the most part, they just aren't there at lightweight for Floyd.

[Ramshall1]

I actually have him at #1 at 130lbs, because I think his opposition, on the whole, was slightly better than Arguello's, and because I think he might have been a bit more dominant, overall.

Still, I think cases could be made for four, and possibly even five men at the weight ( PBF, Arguello, Nelson, Chavez, and possibly the very underrated brian Mitchell).

At lightweight, he can't be rated, because he simply didn't get enough work done at the weight. Head to head, he probably stays with pretty much any of the greats at 135lbs, but I prefer to base my ratings on accomplishments, and, for the most part, they just aren't there at lightweight for Floyd.

I think you just contradicted yourself.

[Fedor Em]

Floyd is easily top 5 at 130 all time, he was a beast there. Floyd was still great at 135 but he didn't do enough to be top 10 there. Duran, Whitaker, Ross, Canzoneri, Arguello, Armstrong, Williams, Gans, Leonard, and Ortiz all were more accomplished than Mayweather.

[Jose FM]

not even atg at 135, im sorry but 3 fights at any division doesnt get you jack. Just prolly braggin rights that he picked up a title there, but thats bout it!

[ripcity]

I think talent wise he is in the dicussion but he dose not have a top 5 resumie.

[kg0208]

I think you just contradicted yourself.

No he didn't. His dominance enhances his accomplishments and are only PART of the criteria he used.

Hey, you hate PBF, thats on you. But you have no real basis for rating him low at 130.

[rr94]

I think you just contradicted yourself.

that wasnt really a contradiction. again, i'll repeat another poster: there is no actual insight.

[Drew101]

I think you just contradicted yourself.

How?

Floyd was a dominant, dominant champion at 130lbs. I would be very hard pressed to think of an occassion where he lost any more than one or two rounds in any of his fights at the weight, and he faced a number of very good fighters.

Hell, even Arguello struggled at jr, lightweight. His rematch with Escalera was up in the air at the time that he uncorked the finishing left hook, he was behind on the cards against Chacon, and his fight with Castillo was dead even on the cards when he pulled out a stoppage.

Floyd didn't struggle, for the most part, in any of his defences. That's the main reason why I rate him number oneat 130 lbs.

At lightweight, it's a slightly different story. His first fight with Castillo could have gone either way (I called it a draw). He won the rematch (pretty easily, imo), and registered all of two defences over Sosa and Ndou...who were solid contenders. Not bad...but not exactly worthy of consideration for an ATG rating based on accomplishments.

So...where's the contridiction?

[Drew101]

No he didn't. His dominance enhances his accomplishments and are only PART of the criteria he used.

Hey, you hate PBF, thats on you. But you have no real basis for rating him low at 130.

Yeah...what he said.:D

I just should have waited for you to respond, kg...it would have saved me a hell of a lot of typing.:lol:

[Asterion]

Of course not. He wasn't there long enough.

Although Castillo might be a Top25 Lightweight of all time.

If you're looking for a division where Floyd is the greatest....look at 130.

[kg0208]

Hey guys, I don't have PBF in the Top 20 at LW. But there has been debate as of late, and polls are a little more decisive than long winded threads where its hard to decipher anything.

[Ramshall1]

No he didn't. His dominance enhances his accomplishments and are only PART of the criteria he used.

Hey, you hate PBF, thats on you. But you have no real basis for rating him low at 130.

maybe he can answer for himself. :patsch

[Ramshall1]

How?

Floyd was a dominant, dominant champion at 130lbs. I would be very hard pressed to think of an occassion where he lost any more than one or two rounds in any of his fights at the weight, and he faced a number of very good fighters.

Hell, even Arguello struggled at jr, lightweight. His rematch with Escalera was up in the air at the time that he uncorked the finishing left hook, he was behind on the cards against Chacon, and his fight with Castillo was dead even on the cards when he pulled out a stoppage.

Floyd didn't struggle, for the most part, in any of his defences. That's the main reason why I rate him number oneat 130 lbs.

At lightweight, it's a slightly different story. His first fight with Castillo could have gone either way (I called it a draw). He won the rematch (pretty easily, imo), and registered all of two defences over Sosa and Ndou...who were solid contenders. Not bad...but not exactly worthy of consideration for an ATG rating based on accomplishments.

So...where's the contridiction?

you said "because I think he might have been a bit more dominant"

then you said you rank based on accomplishement, those two statements are a pretty clear contradiction.

[kg0208]

maybe he can answer for himself. :patsch
Or maybe you could be objective.

You respond to people who weren't talking to you all the time:deal

[Snakefist]

Of course not. He wasn't there long enough.

Although Castillo might be a Top25 Lightweight of all time.

If you're looking for a division where Floyd is the greatest....look at 130.

One of the greatest at light jr ever. Was a monster at Light jr, to be honest and beat every name brand fighter, everyone that was A+ or Elite at the time. Was the time I was really a fan of Floyd then, had great power, great handspd, and great defense.

[Drew101]

you said "because I think he might have been a bit more dominant"

then you said you rank based on accomplishement, those two statements are a pretty clear contradiction.

Oh, dear. It's pretty bad when you have to resort to semantics in order to bolster a pretty weak case.

At130lbs., PBF might have been a bit more dominant than Arguello, in so far as he virtually shut out all of his opponents at the weight. That's a claim that even Arguello and Chavez couldn't make.

At 130lbs., based on accomplishments, dominance, and, to an extant, head-to-head, I would rate him as my #1 fighter all time.

At 135lbs,, based on accomplishments, I don't rate PBF among the all time greats, based on his limited number of fights.

So, you've taken statements that relate to two entirely seperate elements of my post, and lumped them together.

That, sir, isn't an example of me issuing a contradictory staement...that's an example of you quoting me out of context.

[Pimp C]

I think talent wise he is in the dicussion but he dose not have a top 5 resumie.
I agree.

[igotJUIC3]

why would you even use 135? Its clear that he didnt do enough no respectable boxing fan would even try make reason with that.....better off using 130.....where he clearly is an ATG .....H2H PBF gives anyone trouble from 147 down.

[Ramshall1]

Or maybe you could be objective.

You respond to people who weren't talking to you all the time:deal

this was a pretty specific observation on my part about his apparent contradiction. . . better that he answered especially since I didnt bother reasing your entire response anyway.

[Ramshall1]

Oh, dear. It's pretty bad when you have to resort to semantics in order to bolster a pretty weak case.

At130lbs., PBF might have been a bit more dominant than Arguello, in so far as he virtually shut out all of his opponents at the weight. That's a claim that even Arguello and Chavez couldn't make.

At 130lbs., based on accomplishments, dominance, and, to an extant, head-to-head, I would rate him as my #1 fighter all time.

At 135lbs,, based on accomplishments, I don't rate PBF among the all time greats, based on his limited number of fights.

So, you've taken statements that relate to two entirely seperate elements of my post, and lumped them together.

That, sir, isn't an example of me issuing a contradictory staement...that's an example of you quoting me out of context.

thats the part I have a problem with. . . the whole "might have been". Coulda woulda shoulda. . . Im not even arguing that he "wouldnt" have been. . . but he didnt.

I dont think he has enough wins to be ranked that high, biggest was probably Genaro. . . I agree with Shane that Chico was too weight drained to give FMJ too much credit for that win.

[Ramshall1]

Don't worry about this fucking twat loser KG, he's a huge Gatti faan and a fan of all brawlers with no skill, let his retarded ass be.

who the hell is talking to your little prissy ass? Why dont you go run some hurdles, Fraud Groupie.

[Ramshall1]

go, watch wrestling.

go watch track and field.

[kg0208]

this was a pretty specific observation on my part about his apparent contradiction. . . better that he answered especially since I didnt bother reasing your entire response anyway.

I don't post here looking for responses from you, so it doesn't matter whether you read it or not. You posted on a public forum, you got a public answer. Like I said, you often post in response to post directed specifically at others. I don't care if you like it or not.

[kg0208]

Because in another thread some guys argued that PBF is a top5 lw of all-time.

:good

And there was no poll. Polls make things easier on all of us.

[Ramshall1]

I don't post here looking for responses from you, so it doesn't matter whether you read it or not. You posted on a public forum, you got a public answer. Like I said, you often post in response to post directed specifically at others. I don't care if you like it or not.

then carry on.

[kg0208]

then carry on.

I do have a question specifically for you. Where do you place Mayweather at 130lbs All time?

Also, do you feel that we have seen ANY fighters in this generation who are the greatest ever at their peak weight class? Trindad at 154, Jones at 168, PBF at 130, KT at 140, etc..

[El Bombasto]

nope

[Toopretty]

I will say this and say it again. You cannot rate floyd at one weight class except 130. He is a P4p Fighter since then moving up 4 weights in about 5 years. That in its self is an accomplishment and the fact that he went on to be champs at those weights though 140-147 were weak champs. But still an amazing task. Floyd will have a good spot in history when it is all said and done. Even if he loses one fight or so. He did more then most ATG did in a career. Dominating one weight division is fucking easy compared to moving up weights and still being dominate. Floyd at 140 looked his best. Fast with some more power then he had at 135. Floyd could of stayed at 140 and ruled and dethroned Hatton then. Or he for sure beats a drained Cotto at 140.

[Ramshall1]

I do have a question specifically for you. Where do you place Mayweather at 130lbs All time?

Also, do you feel that we have seen ANY fighters in this generation who are the greatest ever at their peak weight class? Trindad at 154, Jones at 168, PBF at 130, KT at 140, etc..

I havent considered it enough to say for certain but probably top 7. . . Im sure there are good fighters form the 20's and b4 that I dont know enough about though.

Its hard to do that since most fighters dont stay at a weght class too long. . . Hops probably comes the closest of this generation IMO cuase of his long resume at 160. Of course I put Hagler and Monzon ahead of him though.

[kg0208]

I will say this and say it again. You cannot rate floyd at one weight class except 130. He is a P4p Fighter since then moving up 4 weights in about 5 years. That in its self is an accomplishment and the fact that he went on to be champs at those weights though 140-147 were weak champs. But still an amazing task. Floyd will have a good spot in history when it is all said and done. Even if he loses one fight or so. He did more then most ATG did in a career. Dominating one weight division is fucking easy compared to moving up weights and still being dominate. Floyd at 140 looked his best. Fast with some more power then he had at 135. Floyd could of stayed at 140 and ruled and dethroned Hatton then. Or he for sure beats a drained Cotto at 140.

Yes, but I have never made an assertion that he was the best at 135. Someone else has, and then muddled the thread with his insults and contradictions. This was simply to get a clearer picture.

And moving up can be great, but I would prefer he did it in the manner Jones did it. Jones moved up 4 weight classes (technically more, but whatever) and won titles in each. Outside of HW though, where Jones was clearly too small, he had 12 fights at SMW and that was his least amount of fights.

I do not doubt his greatness as a P4P fighter, but I do doubt any criteria that would rate PBF in the top 5 of any division besides 130. I think he looked far better at 130 than 140, but thats my opinion.