Middleweight with the hardest chin?

[Bad_Intentions]

who in your opinion has the toughest chin in the middleweight division of all times?

for me, it's james toney, he was knocked down a couple of times and got up. never really knocked out.

[heerko koois]

Hagler ...........

[Dave's Top Ten]

Toney? How about Hagler who fought bigger punchers than Lights Out and was NEVER down (dismissing the slip againt Roldan)

[Doppleganger]

Well Hagler was never properly floored at all and he took the best punches of some of the biggest punchers in MW history. It's Hagler for me. The right hand he took from Thomas Hearns in round 1 that bent his leg through 90 degrees is his defining moment, chin-wise.

[JohnThomas1]

Monzon, Lamotta was scary tough too.

[heerko koois]

Monzon, Lamotta was scary tough too.

I thought that you would pick Marvin.....was Monzon really harder to put down then Hagler you think ? :think

[JohnThomas1]

I thought that you would pick Marvin.....was Monzon really harder to put down then Hagler you think ? :think

I think Monzon is prolly the most durable 160 ever, would you say he'd be easy to stop? Look at the guys he fought, and the times he fought them. Guys like Briscoe and Valdez.

[Russell]

Toney's been out on his feet before. Happened all of once, but it happened.

McClellan needs to be mentioned... His fights with Jackson.

Even against Benn he basically was beaten to death before he went down.

[Tuavale]

Ever? Easy! Marvelous Marvin Hagler. Due your due diligence and you'll understand!:smoke

[Bad_Intentions]

Toney? How about Hagler who fought bigger punchers than Lights Out and was NEVER down (dismissing the slip againt Roldan)that's my opinion. i respect yours. [Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Bill1234]

Monzon, Lamotta was scary tough too.

Yeah, Lamotta had a chin and a half. With the beating he took from Robinson on the saint valentines day masacre, you would have thought he would go down. But for me, its Hagler.

[mcvey]

who in your opinion has the toughest chin in the middleweight division of all times?

for me, it's james toney, he was knocked down a couple of times and got up. never really knocked out.
Two names , Lamotta, Hagler.

[ThePlugInBabies]

bloody hell, two pages in on this subject and not one mention of chris eubank, for shame.

[Bill1234]

If any of the others took the punches Benn and Thompson hit him with, they'd be out cold multiple times

And what's wrong with being knocked down by THAT Calzaghe? He threw some of the hardest (or Loudest, atleast) left hands I've ever seen when he was coming up, before the hand break. Eubank didn't see the shot, was caught cold, and was up at the count of 2 (smilling!)!!

Not Hagler or LaMotta......

[McGrain]

For me it would be between Tiger and LaMotta at MW with Hagler and Greb third and fourth.

[Bill1234]

Well, they certainly never took punches that hard

Hagler took some huge bombs from Hearns and Mugabi. LaMotta took huge poundings from Robinson. Neither were ever down in their careers.

[Russell]

LaMotta was down once during his career, wasn't he?

[Seamus]

In an era previous to many of those mentioned, Tony Zale had a set of whiskers in the footage I have of him. I do not know regarding the earlier KO's of him what were the circumstances... but with the footage I have, and not necessarily just the stats, he could take a great punch.

[Dempsey1238]

Micky Walker should be in the top 5 in that department. The guy was a middleweight taking shots from heavyweight punchers like Schmeling.

[Raging B(_)LL]

Micky Walker should be in the top 5 in that department. The guy was a middleweight taking shots from heavyweight punchers like Schmeling.

You beat me to it, good call!

And actually Mickey was a natural welter/jr.middleweight, and yet he took the best that Schmelling could dish out for 8 rounds before getting pulled out by his corner.... that Mickey was one tough sumbitch thats for sure. Another fighter who deserves mention would be Eduardo Lausse, never stopped or even floored until his second to last bout against frenchman Marcel Pigou in a barnburner of a fight, the other stoppage losses he suffered where all on cuts.

[Raging B(_)LL]

LaMotta was down once during his career, wasn't he?

Yes he was, against Danny Nardico courtesy of a right cross.

[brooklyn1550]

Jake LaMotta
Marvin Hagler

[Marciano Frazier]

LaMotta.

[Cojimar 1945]

Hagler's chin would be more proven had he fought men in higher divisions like Toney and Greb.

[CASH_718]

Toney's been out on his feet before. Happened all of once, but it happened.

McClellan needs to be mentioned... His fights with Jackson.

Even against Benn he basically was beaten to death before he went down.What?? When??

[JohnThomas1]

For me it would be between Tiger and LaMotta at MW with Hagler and Greb third and fourth.

Where do you rate Monzon out of interest?

[JohnThomas1]

Hagler took some huge bombs from Hearns and Mugabi. LaMotta took huge poundings from Robinson. Neither were ever down in their careers.

Roldan had Marvin on his buttocks!!! KD!

[Nemesis]

Roldan had Marvin on his buttocks!!! KD!

Marv, has definetly taken the mantle of most overrated fighter on this forum. apparently he never got beat by SRL too

[McGrain]

Roldan had Marvin on his buttocks!!! KD!


Pretty high I would say! Maybe just outside this type of company. What about you?

Quite surprised to see how few people are mentioning Tiger. I'm trying to think if he was even hurt at MW, never mind dropped - am i misremembering JT?

[McGrain]

Marv, has definetly taken the mantle of most overrated fighter on this forum. apparently he never got beat by SRL too

It's hard to overate such a great fighter, but I think you might be right.

Though there is always Ali!

[JohnThomas1]

Pretty high I would say! Maybe just outside this type of company. What about you?

Quite surprised to see how few people are mentioning Tiger. I'm trying to think if he was even hurt at MW, never mind dropped - am i misremembering JT?

Tiger is a great shout, blood oath. I haven't watched that much of him, Manassa and co will know for sure, but i think the old jaw was iron at 160.

[JohnThomas1]

Marv, has definetly taken the mantle of most overrated fighter on this forum. apparently he never got beat by SRL too

He's up there, tho Pryor would top him i think. It's not as if he isn't great, i have him 1 or 2 achievement and top 5 head to head, top 2, 3 or 4 blended but jeez. I think his mean look and reputation get many, especially newer fans. Personally i found his tough guy image a bit too manufactured, and i lived the time.

[ChrisPontius]

Toney? How about Hagler who fought bigger punchers than Lights Out and was NEVER down (dismissing the slip againt Roldan)

I would rather take a full power punch from Tommy Hearns or John Mugabi than from Samuel Peter.

[JohnThomas1]

I would rather take a full power punch from Tommy Hearns or John Mugabi than from Samuel Peter.

Toney's chin has been proven to be a revelation really.

[mcvey]

LaMotta was never knocked off his feet, and this was a man who didn't have good defense, this was a man who took them all on the chin, including 6 fights worth from one of the best punchers of all time. A lot of Toney's relies on his defense and how he rolls with punches, not neccessarily how good he can take them full, although he certainly has a good chin. He was badly hurt by Reggie Johnson though after the knockdown, something Hagler or Monzon have never been, and something LaMotta took even without going down.

I think his chin ranks behind theirs and Grebs among MW's.
Lamotta was knocked down ,but it was at the end of his career,and by a Light heavy weight,Danny Nardico ,I beleive.

[mcvey]

If any of the others took the punches Benn and Thompson hit him with, they'd be out cold multiple times

And what's wrong with being knocked down by THAT Calzaghe? He threw some of the hardest (or Loudest, atleast) left hands I've ever seen when he was coming up, before the hand break. Eubank didn't see the shot, was caught cold, and was up at the count of 2 (smilling!)!!
Lamotta took the punches of Robinson,and Bob Satterfield ,one of the hardest punching LH,s and Heavyweight ,s of all time,Hagler was never floored ,that Roldan thing was a slip,and Marvin took the punches ofHearns,Mugabi,Briscoe,and Hart.I rest my case!

[JohnThomas1]

:blood Are you kidding me? I think you just underrate the hell out of him. He is easily a top 3 MW of all time, you could make a case for #1, and he was a hard man, he wasn't manufactured. And he was an amazingly complete boxer/fighter in his prime.

No i am not kidding you. You think i underrate him, i think you OVERrate him. If you read what i wrote you would see i rate him 1 or 2 at 160, no? He was amazingly complete when not facing a top technician. Nobody bettered come forward straight ahead fighters much better i will give that for sure. A vastly durable man doesn't neccessarily = a hard man.

[JohnThomas1]

Your resistence obviously gets higher as you get bigger.

I'm far from convinced on this one! Obviously? No, not sold at all. Ability to take a punch is just that and neck muscle can only do so much for mine.

That's why people in lower weights get KO'd by people at their weight, but when they move up for the most part their power goes away, because they are facing bigger fighters with greater punch resistence.

Like Duran getting ko'ed at 135 but not by Hearn's? Like Spink's facing the biggest bombers at 175 then shrugging off Tyson's best? Arguello? Gomez? Zarate?

As Toney moved up, his punch resistence did as well.

I don't recall Toney being stopped to be honest. Being wobbled once or twice doesn't cut it for me. Could have been punches he didn't pick up, the type many fear that are likely to be landed by the faster lighter fighters. You see Toney "see's" the slower punches at heavyweight much better therefore avoiding more and rolling with others ;)

How the hell do you explained him getting dropped and badly hurt by Reggie Johnson at MW?

Just did :good

At MW his chin was not as good as the others mentioned, it was more how he rolled with punches than anything, and how his defense was and how he knew how to take a punch, than just his ability to take a full on shot, although he undoubtedly had a good chin period.

At the end of the day he took everything he needed to and was never stopped. His chinistic effort vs RJJ is something to take note off.

[JohnThomas1]

Ok, so where does the part where he's overrated come into play?

People picking him over every Tom Dick and Harry when it was shown top technicians would be difficult for him. Also so many giving him automatic number 1 status when you have the likes of Monzon lurking around. People picking him to ravage anyone he comes into the ring against. Etc.

[Nemesis]

That was not a legit knockdown AT ALL, are you kidding me? And how the hell is he overrated at all?

He's rated as something of a Demi-God here, more because of his persona rather than his ability. My take on Hagler is that he was a good all rounder, not a great boxer (by any means), and not a great slugger, but he had sufficient ability to have a great mix of the too. As has been supplied in the past (by MDWC) he had his struggles against Finnegan (x2) and Colbert. he was beatable.

and to clarify he also had a great chin

[Nemesis]

IMO Hagler would get beat by the following middles;

Robinson (2 out of 3)
Monzonm (just)
Burley
RJJ (providing his chin holds up)
Hopkins (in a toss up)

[JohnThomas1]

What punchers did he face at LW compared even pound for pound to Hearns?

Looks like the supposed "higher resistence" didn't help him, that's for sure. He took Barkley bombs, but that would have been the extra 6 pounds of higher resistence right?

Hearns landed clean shots all fight long on him, it would've been no different had he fought that way with a similar puncher at LW.

All fight = all 1 1/2 rounds. Personally i think he might have survived a similar assault at 135 P4P. I can't see the biggest lightweight punchers ever stopping him in 2 rounds, not at all actually even if they get some clean licks in. Hearn's was hurting or dropping him most everytime he hit him. Who you picking to absolutely poleaxe him out at 135 given similar offensive success?

I recall him getting dropped and rocked badly by Reggie Johnson. And you prove my point just now when you talk about how he is able to roll with the punches because they are slower at HW. I made a point of his defense being key and the way he rolls with punches having at least as much to do with it as his chin, and you just proved that. His chin at MW wasn't as proven as the others. And the way he rolls with them is a big part of the reason he doesn't get hurt.

Toney took RJJ's leaping left hooks with aplomb mate. Picking out a random little happening like vs Johnson doesn't get bought by me. This tactic falls down on 1000 occasions, not the least being the Holyfield/Bert Cooper/Tyson chain. How on earth could Holy be all but taken out and hurt so bad by Bert Cooper yet walk thru so many Tyson bombs? How could Super Greg Page survive the big punchers he did yet fall to Mark Wills? The Johnson fight doesn't make Toney's chin suspect and Senya will debate you just how badly he was actually rocked :D

Chinistic? Roy pot-shotted him all day and outclassed him, knocking him down in the process.

LMAO! You run around screaming about the Roldan KD of Hagler not being legit yet throw this one in our faces? "Are you kidding?" If this is pertinent to Toney's chin i'm Magaret Thatcher.

[JohnThomas1]

IMO Hagler would get beat by the following middles;

Robinson (2 out of 3)
Monzonm (just)
Burley
RJJ (providing his chin holds up)
Hopkins (in a toss up)

I take SRR at his best, RJJ, Monzon and Hopkins. Wouldn't like to back anyone else tho.

[Stonehands89]

Hagler.

And the debate on this thread is surprising. Toney, Monzon, and especially Lamotta had great chins, but Hagler was in a class by himself. None of those guys took Hearns' right like Hagler did -Remember that Hagler was coming in when he caught a right uppercut -straight right flush. He was eating Mugabi's monster shots like nothing and several other bangers since Briscoe.

[JohnThomas1]

You kinda proved my point. He wasn't able to take Hearns shots because he was simply too hard a puncher landing CLEAN on a Duran not even close to his best. But he was able to take every others fighter he fought's shots.


You're getting a bit hazy. "Simply too hard" is a description used simply because he didn't survive? What about the extra 19 pounds of resistence? Duran was a lot further removed from his best when he faced Barkley.

He was knocked out by Hearns not only because he was such a huge puncher, but Duran was complete shit in that fight.

Hearn's was just too good IMO. If Duran came in shit as you claim on such an immense occasion vs such a dangerous fighter he must have sensed impending doom regardless of what he did. Steward says Duran was intimidated by Hearn's when they crossed paths in the gym years earlier. Apparently Roberto gave ground mentally.

Duran fought the way he did there, I think an Ike Williams would take him out similarly. But if Duran fought at his best that wouldn't be the case. Also, I think Hearns just had his number even if he did fight his best.

Now we're talking, number wise. Even not at his best i think Duran would survive any lightweight, could be wrong. His chin at 135 was awesome.

Nobody said Toney's chin was suspect, just that it wasn't as good at MW as Hagler, Monzon, and LaMotta.

And that's what we are debating, i think it might have been on that level. I also think those guys would struggle immensely to take the shots of heavyweights and don't believe they would survive simply based on this better punch resistence moving up theory. Toney survived one of the biggest punchers on earth, i fear for Marvin, Monzon and Lamotta facing a Cooney, Coetzee etc.

You missed the point. You said his fight with Jones showed how good his chin was when it looked to me on a few occasions that he was hurt and Roy was mostly pot-shotting him the whole night.

RJJ has one shot power, rest assured if he legitimately hurt Toney he would have been all over him like a fly to shit.

You act like I'm saying he had a bad chin, I'm simply saying it wasn't as good at MW as the others I mentioned. Had a lot to do with how he rolled with punches than anything, which is a point I noticed you didn't respond to.:think

Well this is the whole debate, i reckon it was as good as the others and also think his heavyweight record adds to his credence where you don't. I'm not acting like you are saying his chin was bad, i'm acting as if you said it doesn't belong on this level, which you did. As far as rolling with punches, he still took plenty of top blows from the likes of Peter. Monzon and Hagler at their best weren't easy to time perfectly either, tho Toney is defensively better admittedly.

[JohnThomas1]

And out of curiosity, a bit off topic, but what about Hearns of all he faced was it that you think got to Duran?

Not sure. Hearn's had possibly IMO the greatest blend of speed and power in the history of boxing with Tyson, Louis and Foster right there with him. Jones too i guess. Beside that his physical advantages height and reach wise would be daunting.

Bottom line - you place great credence in punch resistence getting better when moving up in weight while i don't. I saw no betterment in guys like Holmes, Page,
Douglas et al when they carried more pounds. If it were true a heavyweight could go on a weight gaining programme like some fighters do moving up and improve durability noticably. Can't see it myself.

[ChrisPontius]

Your resistence obviously gets higher as you get bigger. That's why people in lower weights get KO'd by people at their weight, but when they move up for the most part their power goes away, because they are facing bigger fighters with greater punch resistence. As Toney moved up, his punch resistence did as well.

How the hell do you explained him getting dropped and badly hurt by Reggie Johnson at MW? At MW his chin was not as good as the others mentioned, it was more how he rolled with punches than anything, and how his defense was and how he knew how to take a punch, than just his ability to take a full on shot, although he undoubtedly had a good chin period.

Toney may have been able to take those punches better because he was bigger. On the other hand, it did slow him down, hurting his ability to roll with them.

But what i meant is that Toney proved his chin against middleweights, supermiddleweights (what SMW punches harder than Jones?), lightheavyweight, cruiserweight and heavyweight.
Hagler's chin is unquestionable at MW but who knows what would've happened had he faced Spinks.

[JohnThomas1]

Hagler's chin is unquestionable at MW but who knows what would've happened had he faced Spinks.

:!:

[Bad_Intentions]

i never knew this thread would reach 5 pages.:lol:

[JohnThomas1]

i never knew this thread would reach 5 pages.:lol:

So you're the culprit!

:lol:

[Lex]

It would be easier to pick a list of middleweights who couldn't take a punch. MW has typically featured a bunch of rock jawed SOBs, too many to list here.

[Holmes' Jab]

Hagler is the first that immediately springs to mind. LaMotta and Toney are others.

[Vantage_West]

Chris Eubank - fought ever hard puncher in the division he would be dropped by shots that caught him off balance he has only been on the floor for 7 seconds..which is better than some fighters who have been knocked out only once.

Gerald McClellan - fought top 10 hardest middlewieght of all time and 14 on my pound 4 pound hitter list in benn, p4p hardest puncher juliun jackson and also immensly strong hard hitting puncher john the beast mugabi and was only on the floor when he took a knee...impressive stuff.

Marvin Hagler - never knocked down was a small guy for the wieght (so i take that into acount) and took the brunt of the force of the big shots from the bigger men.