Eddie Futch on Holman Williams [Archive]

McGrain

08-11-2007, 05:47 AM

janitor

08-11-2007, 06:54 AM

I wonder how Joe Louis would have turned out if he had stuck with Williams and not gone with Blackburn.

McGrain

08-11-2007, 06:56 AM

I wonder how Joe Louis would have turned out if he had stuck with Williams and not gone with Blackburn.

Yeah, i've thought about that too.

You can only imagine he would have been a different fighter alltogether.

I would speculate that Louis may have been better of with Williams if he had fought in the 70's or the 90's. Maybe.

McGrain

08-12-2007, 06:15 AM

I'm going to bump this thread until we have a page of sensible posts or until I die. Whichever comes first.

McGrain

08-13-2007, 06:25 AM

Williams had great heart too; in his first encounter with Burley, Burley floored the defencive master four times, and every time Williams struggled to his feet - and he won that fight.

Burley threw his shoulder at the beginning of the ninth and Williams took the decision.

fists of fury

08-13-2007, 06:49 AM

Holman Williams is one of those fighters I must make my business to get to know better. I feel his legacy deserves to be remembered.

Unfortunately, he's one of a number of forgotten fighters that had a champion's abilities, but a hobo's luck. I speak under correction, but I don't think he ever won a title, yet he was good enough to beat Charley Burley, and you didn't beat Burley unless you were bloody good.

McGrain

08-13-2007, 06:52 AM

Holman Williams is one of those fighters I must make my business to get to know better. I feel his legacy deserves to be remembered.

It sounds like he was some sort of defencive master with the heart to match, but it also seems he wasn't breaking popcorn, to quote Ali.

He does indeed have some pretty good wins under his belt.

McGrain

08-14-2007, 05:13 AM

In a familiar set of cirumstances Williams fought to long. I think he won two of his last ten.

Manassa

08-14-2007, 02:41 PM

The reason Williams was a weak hitter wasn't to do with a lack of strength or technique, but brittle hands. By all accounts, he excelled in the art of uppercutting - where he could hit an opponent at such an angle where his metacarpals were not aligned in the same way and weren't bashing together.

McGrain

08-17-2007, 01:38 PM

Minotauro

08-17-2007, 02:03 PM

I rate Williams very highly he has some huge wins but as mentioned before he wasn't a puncher although in his early career he did finish a lot of fights. Like many old fighters he fought so many times, that injuries never truly healed which is a bad thing especially if you have brittle hands. His list of wins is up there with the best I believe he went 3-3 with Burley. The only fighter who he seemed to struggle with was Cocoa Kid he deserves to be in the hall of fame.

His story is tragic a great fighter who was never given a title shot despite always being highly ranked in his prime. I believe he would have out boxed Zale he had a very good chin only ever finished 3 times in almost 200 fights. Also his last days were very tragic he never got the big fight so he wasn't well off once he retired he began to train fighters and lived in the gym one day the owner of the gym got into an altercation with someone they retaliated by burning the gym down he was asleep and died.

He deserves a lot more recognition then what he gets he is hardly ever mentioned on these top 50 or 100 p4p yet his wins are better then 90% of the fighters who do get mentioned.

McGrain

08-18-2007, 06:47 PM

His list of wins is up there with the best I believe he went 3-3 with Burley.

He did indeed, with one supposedly outrageious NC called by a ref who was heavily criticised for stopping two defensive masters for "not trying".

The only fighter who he seemed to struggle with was Cocoa Kid he deserves to be in the hall of fame.

His story is tragic a great fighter who was never given a title shot despite always being highly ranked in his prime. I believe he would have out boxed Zale he had a very good chin only ever finished 3 times in almost 200 fights. Also his last days were very tragic he never got the big fight so he wasn't well off once he retired he began to train fighters and lived in the gym one day the owner of the gym got into an altercation with someone they retaliated by burning the gym down he was asleep and died.

He deserves a lot more recognition then what he gets he is hardly ever mentioned on these top 50 or 100 p4p yet his wins are better then 90% of the fighters who do get mentioned.

Good post bro.

McGrain

03-03-2008, 06:45 PM

:bump

dpw417

03-03-2008, 08:31 PM

Eddie called Williams (along with Burley) "the two greatest fighters [he] ever had the privalidge to see box" and said of Holman that he would "rather see him shadowbox than watch most other fighters in action"

Holman Williams was a great boxer, but he never got the recongnition because he wasn't a punhcer. He had the finesse of Ray Robinson but no punch.

Williams beat some all time great fighters (Marshall, Booker, Burley, Cocoa Kid amongst them) but the war, the absolutley astonishing level of competition at the time and his colour all stood in the way of a proper title shot. He sounds like something of a master boxer and defensive wizard. Though these things are difficult, does anyone rate Williams highly at Welter or Middle? What do you gents make of him?
McGrain.
Judging by his record and his amazing level of competition, you'd have to regard him very highly amongst the welters/middles...Anyone who had the skillset to engage Burley and other members of 'The Row' with his success, has to be considered a great fighter. Was there quite a bit of info on him in Rosenfeld's book? I need to learn more about him...and Burley too, for that matter!

Stonehands89

03-03-2008, 08:42 PM

Holman had a hand in the development of Joe Louis -and Eddie Futch. He was kind and good-natured... and a player in the Black Murderer's Row. Manassa is on the money with the brittle hands theory. Holman had some good power early on and was stopping guys right and left, but his hands gave out, much like Burley's did. I have to wonder how many other fighters -black fighters particularly, had this problem during the golden age, and how much of it is due to their poverty and deficient nutrition.

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Much is made of great fighters ducking guys like Burley, Williams, Jack Chase, Eddie Booker, et al., but many forget that back then many fighters were serving in WW II... and if a champion went overseas, like Tony Zale, their titles were frozen out of respect. I am not so sure that Zale would not have given Holman a shot in 42 or 43.

I love the Man of Steel... but my money would have went on Holman.

McGrain

03-04-2008, 06:13 AM

Was there quite a bit of info on him in Rosenfeld's book? I need to learn more about him...and Burley too, for that matter!

Actually, I would say Otty was stronger than Rosenfeld as far as Williams goes. But there really isn't that much out there...

McGrain

03-04-2008, 06:15 AM

I love the Man of Steel... but my money would have went on Holman.

Thanks for your excellent contribtion.

I agree with your picking Williams to beat Zale. He needs a stoppage in my opinion, and I don't think that he would get one.

ecto55

04-03-2011, 05:44 AM

...............

McGrain

04-03-2011, 05:46 AM

Most excellent, friend.

GPater11093

04-03-2011, 05:11 PM

I'm a pretty big fan and booster of Holamn Williams.

I think he is probably the best pure boxer who ever lived, and the best defensive technician that existed. Just I cant prove this.

The Funny Man 7

11-10-2011, 04:39 PM

Great fighter. I've always loved Futch's words about the shadow boxing. Williams was a great fighter and it's too bad he died like he did poor and living in a gymnasium. One of the many fighters of that era who was treated cruelly by the establishment.

I've always got the sense that Williams was one of those guys who really enjoyed fighting. I read some of his comments in an old issue of the Ring that had belonged to my uncle where he talked about how he loved the thrill of being able to outthink and beat a quality opponent.

All I know is if Holman Williams were fighting today he already would have fought Miguel Cotto twice, Pacman four or five times, Sergio Martinez three times, and Hopkins once or twice to boot.

Those Murderers Row guys didn't know what it was to fear another man.

El Bujia

11-10-2011, 04:46 PM

I think he is probably the best pure boxer who ever lived, and the best defensive technician that existed. Just I cant prove this.All the more reason to proclaim it, because it can't be disproved either. Flawless logic.

McGrain

11-10-2011, 05:03 PM

Yeah!

PowerPuncher

11-10-2011, 05:07 PM

Any film of him? Shame if not

burt bienstock

11-10-2011, 10:57 PM

Eddie called Williams (along with Burley) "the two greatest fighters [he] ever had the privalidge to see box" and said of Holman that he would "rather see him shadowbox than watch most other fighters in action"

Holman Williams was a great boxer, but he never got the recongnition because he wasn't a punhcer. He had the finesse of Ray Robinson but no punch.

Williams beat some all time great fighters (Marshall, Booker, Burley, Cocoa Kid amongst them) but the war, the absolutley astonishing level of competition at the time and his colour all stood in the way of a proper title shot. He sounds like something of a master boxer and defensive wizard. Though these things are difficult, does anyone rate Williams highly at Welter or Middle? What do you gents make of him?
Never having seen Holman Williams [shame], I envision him like a later edition of Jack Britton,the amazing master boxer of the welterweights.
Great technique and durability....Joe Louis also raved about him, a chartered member of Murderers Row...Wow ,what I wouldn't give to see Holman Williams against Floyd Mayweather, both at their bests.Would solve a lot of questions. Old vs. New...

highguard

11-11-2011, 12:44 AM

ecto55

11-11-2011, 06:34 AM

Any film of him? Shame if not

One poster in another thread, possibly either Stonehands or the chap who wrote the Jack Chase articles (or are they one and the same?), posted that he'd found/seen about 30 seconds of footage of Holman Williams from a Joe Louis undercard- possibly from testing the camera's in anticipation of the main event.

I looked up the fights where Holman fought on Louis undercards and there were some interesting bouts, but beggers cant be chosers and I'd be overjoyed just to watch Holman do anything in motion.

I remain cautiously optimistic. :think

Flea Man

11-11-2011, 07:49 AM

There's still no footage of him then?!?!?! FFS!

Stonehands89

11-11-2011, 11:24 AM

he is one reason, its good that we have 4 titles,

a champ cant just sit on his title,

today he would have been 2 time wbo welter champ
and current ibf middle weight champ

and very rich

but ohh yeah

back then was the golden years, thats why a legend like him had to end like that
There is no good reason to have 4 titles. There should be only ONE ...and every purist out there should cease and desist from acknowledging the nonsense. We are guilty of empowering those extortionists with their tin belts who have been hobbling boxing for 50 years.

I'm gonna begin with me. I've repented of my former belief that Duran won a fourth championship when he defeated Barkley. Duran beat Barkley who beat Hearns, which was impressive, but it wasn't for the throne. The throne was never filled between Leonard's retirement and Nunn's defeat of Kalambay.

Why wasn't it filled? Because the press and the fans took the myriad WBS's and their tin belts seriously instead of ignoring them. So the myriad "tin-belt champions" never fought the top man. Their claims and their belts were not legitimate -and the sooner we stand by that, the better boxing will get.

Anyway... back to Holman Williams...

Holman did hold artificial titles -the Colored Middleweight Title and the Negro Lightweight Title as well as a few state titles that I'd have to look up. However, despite the fierce rivalries he had with other members of Murderers' Row, he knew damn well that there was one throne in each division. His being ducked was unfortunate but the last thing we want to do is legitimize the tin belts out of misguided compassion. Corrupting the whole damn sport is worse.

thistle1

11-11-2011, 11:45 AM

NOT ALONE!

Williams is another example of just how great TOP fighters are, and there were many of them.

Elite, Greats and Very Goods fighters not much in it, especially from greater Era's.

Stonehands89

11-11-2011, 11:48 AM

One poster in another thread, possibly either Stonehands or the chap who wrote the Jack Chase articles (or are they one and the same?), posted that he'd found/seen about 30 seconds of footage of Holman Williams from a Joe Louis undercard- possibly from testing the camera's in anticipation of the main event.

I looked up the fights where Holman fought on Louis undercards and there were some interesting bouts, but beggers cant be chosers and I'd be overjoyed just to watch Holman do anything in motion.

I remain cautiously optimistic. :think
Not me, and not me!

Holman was defeated by Cocoa Kid on March 27, 1942 at MSG on the undercard of Louis-Abe Simon. I may have been the third fight on a card of 6 and it was a six-rounder (a "fast one", say the reports). The Louis fight was filmed and the chances are decent that the Holman fight was filmed too. He and Louis were friends -and most of you know by now that Holman was his first trainer when Louis walked into the famed Brewster Gym in Detroit. Louis was known to work Holman's corner....
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thistle1

11-11-2011, 11:58 AM

NOT ALONE!

Williams is another example of just how great TOP fighters are, and there were many of them.

Elite, Greats and Very Goods fighters not much in it, especially from greater Era's.

Surf-Bat

11-11-2011, 03:01 PM

Not me, and not me!

Holman was defeated by Cocoa Kid on March 27, 1942 at MSG on the undercard of Louis-Abe Simon. I may have been the third fight on a card of 6 and it was a six-rounder (a "fast one", say the reports). The Louis fight was filmed and the chances are decent that the Holman fight was filmed too. He and Louis were friends -and most of you know by now that Holman was his first trainer when Louis walked into the famed Brewster Gym in Detroit. Louis was known to work Holman's corner....

I have that 30 seconds of Holman on VHS. Not sure who he's fighting(it may indeed be Cocoa Kid), but if you want to convert it to DVD and post it I'll mail it to you.

ecto55

11-11-2011, 05:21 PM

PM'd you.

Flea Man

11-11-2011, 06:08 PM

I have that 30 seconds of Holman on VHS. Not sure who he's fighting(it may indeed be Cocoa Kid), but if you want to convert it to DVD and post it I'll mail it to you.

:happy :happy :happy

SuzieQ49

11-11-2011, 06:31 PM

Wow film of Holman Williams? This I have to see

Stonehands89

11-12-2011, 10:53 PM

I have that 30 seconds of Holman on VHS. Not sure who he's fighting(it may indeed be Cocoa Kid), but if you want to convert it to DVD and post it I'll mail it to you.
I can convert it to DVD easy enough but I'll need a little tutorial to post it. I'll probably know for sure if it is Cocoa Kid. My address is in your pm.

Thank you!

Surf-Bat

11-13-2011, 03:47 AM

I can convert it to DVD easy enough but I'll need a little tutorial to post it. I'll probably know for sure if it is Cocoa Kid. My address is in your pm.

Thank you!

You got it. I'll drop it in the mail this week:smoke

gentleman jim

11-29-2011, 09:48 PM

I agree with StoneHands regarding multiple titles. This has ruined the boxing that I grew up to worship. 1 champion in each division....Period! Just like it used to be. Imagine 2 or 3 Super Bowl champions....Or World Series champions for that matter. He's the WBC HW champ while He's the XYZ champ....I've won 6 titles.etc... It's absurd. All about money. I'm sorry to rant when the discussion is about a true master from a golden age but SH struck a chord.