Joe Frazier's Chin Against Ali...

[Russell]

Joe Frazier is often cited as having a weak chin, by the standards of heavyweight champions. But I think to a large degree his toughness was directly tied to his passion in the ring. His fire.

He was dropped while relatively green against Bonavena, and of course Foreman bounced him around when he was unmotivated and ten pounds if not more above his best fighting weight.

But I think Frazier deserves far, far more credit for his how his chin held up against Ali in their three fights, especially their third.

Think about it. Ali more then likely never hit a fighter harder then he hit Frazier that night.

In comparison against Bonavena, Ali stopped him in the 15th, knocking him down multiple times. Oscar is thought of as having a cast iron jaw. Ali's shots against Oscar had absolutely nothing compared to how he was sitting down and unloading on Frazier in their third fight. Yet in over 40 rounds against Frazier Ali could never even get him off his feet.

It took Ali 8 rounds to get the iron jawed George Foreman out of there.

Frazier's passion and hatred against Ali, in my opinion, made him borderline indestructable. He could be stunned, buzzed, put on queer street... But knocked down, truly stopped by Ali? Doubtful.

I think his chin in the Ali fights was unbelievable, even if you think it was piss poor against Foreman or other fighters.

[McGrain]

Frazier's resistance to concussive power is more limited than many HW champs.

His resistance to punishment is not.

[Russell]

Well put.

But as Ali showed even average power with that kind of speed can absolutely kill.

Frazier did take it better then Foreman or Bonavena.

[McGrain]

Yeah, basically Frazier cannot be stopped. Unless you stop him.

Know what I mean?

[Russell]

I do.

Probably conveys it better then my longass first post did.

[round15]

Frazier was motivated the most for Ali in his career. There was no other fighter who got under his skin more than Ali and he was better prepared mentally to take anything that he would throw everytime he faced him. In fact, Joe was slightly off his game in the FOTC because he was loading up with the left hook too much, probably out of anger, and he neglected his right hand.

[Duodenum]

In round two of their middle fight, Tony Perez may well have saved Frazier from getting floored by Ali. Muhammad had him stunned more severely then than at any other time in all three matches, and was starting to rake him over the coals on the ropes when Perez erroneously stepped in.

Many observers consider his knockout punch against Foreman to be the hardest blow he ever delivered, but that right hand he drove Joe to the ropes with in that second round ranks up there with the long jolting right that signaled the beginning of the end of Lyle.

[ChrisPontius]

Staying upright after taking Ali's right hand is not a sign of a great chin. Taking 200 of them and still keep coming forward, however, is a sign of inhuman will and ability to take accumulative punishment.

[round15]

In round two of their middle fight, Tony Perez may well have saved Frazier from getting floored by Ali. Muhammad had him stunned more severely then than at any other time in all three matches, and was starting to rake him over the coals on the ropes when Perez erroneously stepped in.

Many observers consider his knockout punch against Foreman to be the hardest blow he ever delivered, but that right hand he drove Joe to the ropes with in that second round ranks up there with the long jolting right that signaled the beginning of the end of Lyle.

Frazier may very well have been hurt in that second round but I don't think he was threatened to be stopped like some have said. Certainly, Ali might have dropped him if Perez let him continue his flurry, but I think he would have got up and recovered.

Perez overall did a horrible job of officiating in this rematch and I dare say Frazier might've pulled out the victory if it was a fifteen round fight. It's been well documented that Ali got away with excessive holding and pulling Frazier's head down. Ali tried that in the first couple of rounds in Manilla but Carlos Padilla kept slapping his gloves away from Frazier's neck, not letting him do that.

There was no way Frazier was going to win this fight regardless of the controversy because boxing couldn't afford for Ali to potentially retire after losing two fights to Frazier.

[Russell]

There was no way Frazier was going to win this fight regardless of the controversy because boxing couldn't afford for Ali to potentially retire after losing two fights to Frazier.

Boxing couldn't afford many things in regards to Ali, sadly. I don't know if the game suffered or benefited from it.

[dav8d777]

For anyone to say Frazier had a weak chin is being pretty tough on the guy. There was only one man who ever KO'd him. Ali stopped him early in their third bout, but it had nothing to do with Frazier's chin. Foreman just had his number.

While Frazier was disappointing as a "fighting champion" he really did fight and win against all the big boys on his way up. He beat hard punchers like Quarry (twice) and Bob Foster. He also had wins over Buster Mathis, Jimmy Ellis (twice), Bonavena, Chuvalo, Machen and Doug Jones.

Only Foreman ever knocked the hard-headed SOB out. It was just SOOOO PUBLIC!!!

[Muchmoore]

Frazier's resistance to concussive power is more limited than many HW champs.

His resistance to punishment is not.

I've always felt the same way.

People like to point to the Ali fights to prove Frazier had a great chin, but they showcased his superhuman toughness more than his chin. He was never hit that hard in those fights due to Alis lack of power.

[JohnThomas1]

Totally agree with the trend here, Chris, Mac, MM. Norton too took a bit from Ali (AND Holmes) but was axed by others.

[JIm Broughton]

Frazier didn't have a weak chin at all. As we all know, "Styles make fights". Against Foreman Joe's style was taylor made for George. Angelo Dundee said it best when asked why Ali beat George. He explained that George was the type of fighter that liked to hook and punch down at an opponent, just like he did to Frazier. Joe's style enabled George to tee off on him since he was shorter than him and with Geoge's power that spelled disaster for Joe. Ali didn't hit as hard as Foreman which allowed Joe to stay in the fights with him despite getting hit alot. One thing Joe did have over the likes of Foreman and Bonavena was stamina. Joe kept on coming where George and Oscar got tired against Ali (George tired quicker of course). It's all about styles for the most part. That's why you never can tell in the fight game.

[OBCboxer]

Frazier has an average chin. It's not great but it's not bad. Pretty much what McGrain said; he could be beat up, knocked down and have his face swollen to the size of a beach ball, but he'll still keep coming forward.

[round15]

Frazier has an average chin. It's not great but it's not bad. Pretty much what McGrain said; he could be beat up, knocked down and have his face swollen to the size of a beach ball, but he'll still keep coming forward.

Frazier's chin is certainly not average. Ali sat down on his punches a lot more against Frazier and never had him down in their fights. Although Ali stopped many big punchers with the accumulative effects of his punches, he was a harder puncher than most people give him credit for. It's obvious that the essence of Ali's style, dancing, jabbing and mostly winning on points is atypical of a knockout puncher.

I think Frazier's endurance, toughness and heart is what sets him aside from most heavyweights but I believe his chin was better than average.

[Muchmoore]

Frazier's chin is certainly not average. Ali sat down on his punches a lot more against Frazier and never had him down in their fights. Although Ali stopped many big punchers with the accumulative effects of his punches, he was a harder puncher than most people give him credit for. It's obvious that the essence of Ali's style, dancing, jabbing and mostly winning on points is atypical of a knockout puncher.

I think Frazier's endurance, toughness and heart is what sets him aside from most heavyweights but I believe his chin was better than average.

Better than average certainly if you take into account every HW that ever fought including journeymen and tomato cans.

But in terms of elite heavyweights as in top 5 in the world/champs it's probably about average.

[round15]

Better than average certainly if you take into account every HW that ever fought including journeymen and tomato cans.

But in terms of elite heavyweights as in top 5 in the world/champs it's probably about average.

Who is in your top five in the world, or of all time that has a better chin than Frazier? Tomato cans and Journey don't count because if you're excluding him past the top 5, and rounding him into the top ten, there's no reason why Frazier shouldn't be considered as having one of the best heavyweight chins of all time.

[Muchmoore]

Who is in your top five in the world, or of all time that has a better chin than Frazier? Tomato cans and Journey don't count because if you're excluding him past the top 5, and rounding him into the top ten, there's no reason why Frazier shouldn't be considered as having one of the best heavyweight chins of all time.

Frazier was one of the toughest fighters to ever live and had as much heart as anyone. But him absorbing shots from Ali who wasn't a big puncher just shows his fighting spirit, not his one punch resistance. You asked who has better chins, well here's some off the top of my head

McCall
Max Baer
Tyson
Holyfield
Ali
Holmes
Willard
Tua
Ibeabuchi
Vitali Klitschko
Lennox Lewis
Quarry
Chuvalo
Liston
Marciano
Foreman
Tex Cobb
Bonecrusher Smith
Mercer
Tony Tucker
Valuev
Dempsey
Bonavena

And I could name many more. Frazier was no china chinned punk, but he wasn't an Oliver McCall by any stretch either. Foreman bounced him off the canvas like a basketball and Bonavena decked him twice too. They were by far the best punchers he ever faced, too.

[Bokaj]

Frazier was one of the toughest fighters to ever live and had as much heart as anyone. But him absorbing shots from Ali who wasn't a big puncher just shows his fighting spirit, not his one punch resistance. You asked who has better chins, well here's some off the top of my head

McCall
Max Baer
Tyson
Holyfield
Ali
Holmes
Willard
Tua
Ibeabuchi
Vitali Klitschko
Lennox Lewis
Quarry
Chuvalo
Liston
Marciano
Foreman
Tex Cobb
Bonecrusher Smith
Mercer
Tony Tucker
Valuev
Dempsey
Bonavena


Why, do you reckon, did Ali KO Bonavena and have Quarry out on his feet when he never managed that against Frazier?

[Muchmoore]

Why, do you reckon, did Ali KO Bonavena and have Quarry out on his feet when he never managed that against Frazier?

Because they didn't have the stamina, style, and determination that Smokin Joe had. Bonavena could barely stand up he was so exhausted :lol:

[Chaney]

Frazier wanted to go out for the 15th round in Manilla, practically blind and soaking up terrible punishment, for the slim chance to land a big punch on Ali. He would have done, if Futch hadn't stopped him.

Ali would have had to have killed Smokin' Joe to stop him.

[mr. magoo]

Frazier wanted to go out for the 15th round in Manilla, practically blind and soaking up terrible punishment, for the slim chance to land a big punch on Ali. He would have done, if Futch hadn't stopped him.

Ali would have had to have killed Smokin' Joe to stop him.

I second this,

To Joe Frazier, Ali was like an annoying older brother who you refused to just back down against. In fact, he would always feel like he had something to prove against Muhammad, and likely still does today. Joe would rather die than Quit against Ali.

[Unforgiven]

Frazier had a good chin.

[round15]

Frazier was one of the toughest fighters to ever live and had as much heart as anyone. But him absorbing shots from Ali who wasn't a big puncher just shows his fighting spirit, not his one punch resistance. You asked who has better chins, well here's some off the top of my head

McCall
Max Baer
Tyson
Holyfield
Ali
Holmes
Willard
Tua
Ibeabuchi
Vitali Klitschko
Lennox Lewis
Quarry
Chuvalo
Liston
Marciano
Foreman
Tex Cobb
Bonecrusher Smith
Mercer
Tony Tucker
Valuev
Dempsey
Bonavena

And I could name many more. Frazier was no china chinned punk, but he wasn't an Oliver McCall by any stretch either. Foreman bounced him off the canvas like a basketball and Bonavena decked him twice too. They were by far the best punchers he ever faced, too.

What is the basis of your argument that supports all the above mentioned having a better chin than Frazier? Bonavena had Joe hurt once in their first fight and the second knockdown was more of a push-down.

I'd bet that none of the above mentioned fighters would have gotten up the way a grossly depleted Frazier did after the huge Foreman uppercut in the middle of the first round in 1973. Frazier also took some big shots from Bugner, Quarry, Ellis and Chuvalo, absorbing them all and stopping them, except for Bugner from what I remember.

[Muchmoore]

I'd bet that none of the above mentioned fighters would have gotten up the way a grossly depleted Frazier did after the huge Foreman uppercut in the middle of the first round in 1973.

Because they didn't have his determination and toughness. The two hardest punchers he faced and really the only two elite ones in terms of pure power both dropped him. Oscar was one KD away from stopping a very groggy Smokin Joe.

I'm not saying his chin was a huge liability, it just wasn't his strong point. If you compare it to most other top 5 fighters throughout history, it would be in the middle.

[markedwardscott]

He also took a lot of shots from Quarry who was a good puncher. But yeah, against Ali he took 3 horrible beatings, all fueled by his hatred of Ali.

[MPG]

Frazier was bounced around the ring by a man who's only reputation for power is bouncing frazier around the ring.

[Russell]

Frazier was bounced around the ring by a man who's only reputation for power is bouncing frazier around the ring.

Yeah, and having the iron chinned Ali out on his feet with stars in his eyes every bit as much as Shaver's did, and Foreman did this with the added handicap of the loosest ring ropes of all time. :lol:

[Hydraulix]

Frazier didn't have a bad chin at all. No one seems to point out that every time George knocked him down in their first fight, Joe got right back up!!! If Joe would have stayed down and was really hurt, then I'd agree that his chin was weak. But he kept getting right back up, and ready to resume the fight. Foreman did not "knock Joe out" at all. Well, at least not in the first fight. But in the second fight, Joe was not going to get back up after that last knockdown.

[Mendoza]

Frazier's resistance to concussive power is more limited than many HW champs.

His resistance to punishment is not.

I think Frazier personal dislike to Ali made him even extra tough in the Ali trilogy. Still, Ali did badly stun Frazier in the 2nd match, and did score the TKO in the 3rd.

[mcvey]

Joe Frazier is often cited as having a weak chin, by the standards of heavyweight champions. But I think to a large degree his toughness was directly tied to his passion in the ring. His fire.

He was dropped while relatively green against Bonavena, and of course Foreman bounced him around when he was unmotivated and ten pounds if not more above his best fighting weight.

But I think Frazier deserves far, far more credit for his how his chin held up against Ali in their three fights, especially their third.

Think about it. Ali more then likely never hit a fighter harder then he hit Frazier that night.

In comparison against Bonavena, Ali stopped him in the 15th, knocking him down multiple times. Oscar is thought of as having a cast iron jaw. Ali's shots against Oscar had absolutely nothing compared to how he was sitting down and unloading on Frazier in their third fight. Yet in over 40 rounds against Frazier Ali could never even get him off his feet.

It took Ali 8 rounds to get the iron jawed George Foreman out of there.

Frazier's passion and hatred against Ali, in my opinion, made him borderline indestructable. He could be stunned, buzzed, put on queer street... But knocked down, truly stopped by Ali? Doubtful.

I think his chin in the Ali fights was unbelievable, even if you think it was piss poor against Foreman or other fighters.
I don't think Frazier had a bad chin,in fact it was probably above average out of the Heavy Champs.The problem with Joe is the only monster puncher he met used him as a yo yo,so we have only that frame of reference to go on.Certainly being bounced like a ball by Foreman is no disgrace, he ranks among the hardest ,if not the hardest hitting champs of all time.Fights with some of the other big punchers may have confirmed Joe's durability ,as the series with Ali confirmed his extraordinary wiilingness to accept punishment and keep coming,as they did not happen,there will allways be a question mark over his chin at the very top level imo.

[groove]

rounds 13 and 14 in manila most impressed me about frazier's chin. he had unbelievable heart. i think 1973 foreman would have demolished a lot of ATG's in the opening 3 rounds.

[Gyro]

In round two of their middle fight, Tony Perez may well have saved Frazier from getting floored by Ali. Muhammad had him stunned more severely then than at any other time in all three matches, and was starting to rake him over the coals on the ropes when Perez erroneously stepped in.

Many observers consider his knockout punch against Foreman to be the hardest blow he ever delivered, but that right hand he drove Joe to the ropes with in that second round ranks up there with the long jolting right that signaled the beginning of the end of Lyle.

Good post, you forgot about Manila though. Ali staggered Frazier like 3-4 times in rounds 13 and 14. Besides his fight against Foreman, I have never seen Frazier stagger like that. I also don't know why this forum is up here...Frazier had one of the best chins of all time...even Foreman couldn't keep him down after 6 knockdowns and it took Ali everything he had to stop him in Manila. Frazier took serious punishment throughout his career especially against Foreman and Ali yet Frazier though punished, kept coming. The guy was relentless, Frazier had an amazing chin. Look at it like this, how many other fighters got up 6 times against Foreman? And how many fighters could take the punishment Ali gave Frazier in Manila? Most fighters would bend from the beating Frazier got from Ali in Manila, Futch had to stop the fight even. I just don't see why people would say Frazier had a poor chin....to my understanding he is considered to have a great chin. He was stopped only by Foreman and Ali, that says it all.

[Shake]

I love how Frazier's inhuman mental strength seemed fueled by hate. Not by anything usually deemed positive, not by pride or a desire for glory, fame or the championship. It seemed to stem from a dark place, some prehistoric survival gene that had snaked through generations and settled into this fighter.

And yet it's one of the most pure and beautiful things I've seen in the ring. This ugly, raw, honest "I will not yield, not to you, not today". Sheer power. Terrifying.

[McGrain]

IIt seemed to stem from a dark place, some prehistoric survival gene that had snaked through generations and settled into this fighter.

Oooo, nicely put.

I loved his reaction to the final days of Ali badmouthing Joe. He punched a hole in the gym wall and ironically warned Futch not to stop the fight in Manilla no matter what.

"It's him or me."

[round15]

Oooo, nicely put.

I loved his reaction to the final days of Ali badmouthing Joe. He punched a hole in the gym wall and ironically warned Futch not to stop the fight in Manilla no matter what.

"It's him or me."

Very nice McGrain.

[gattiwarrior]

i laughed at that list

lennox lewis has a better chin than frazier????

2 x 1 punch kos vs nobodys

[ironchamp]

Frazier's resistance to concussive power is more limited than many HW champs.

His resistance to punishment is not.

Solid post.

[leverage]

Frazier had a strong chin, pure and simple. Jerry Quarry, who could punch like hell, really nailed frazier with some hard, flush punches and joe just kept coming. When you consider that frazier was often tagged coming in, which doubled the impact of the punches and still he still moved forward it's really hard to understand why people say he had a weak chin.

[red cobra]

I've always felt the same way.

People like to point to the Ali fights to prove Frazier had a great chin, but they showcased his superhuman toughness more than his chin. He was never hit that hard in those fights due to Alis lack of power.
This!

[yancey]

Frazier had a strong chin, pure and simple. Jerry Quarry, who could punch like hell, really nailed frazier with some hard, flush punches and joe just kept coming. When you consider that frazier was often tagged coming in, which doubled the impact of the punches and still he still moved forward it's really hard to understand why people say he had a weak chin.

Yes, Quarry hit him with some strong punches those first two rounds in '69.

42 years ago today, as a matter of fact.

Back in '68, early in their fight Ramos hit Frazier flush with a big right uppercut as Joe came in, which increases the impact as you say. Frazier was momentarily buckled but quickly recovered and shortly resume his swarming. I know Ramos finished badly in boxing, but he was a big rangy guy who had some good power and he hit Frazier with pretty much his best lick.

That right uppercut that Foreman hit Frazier with to cause the second knockdown in '73 was one of the most devastating uppercuts I've ever seen. Quite a few heavies would not have gotten up from that shot.

[Shake]

Pressuring Foreman is a difficult and dangerous thing to do. If fighters were not allowed to go backwards, he might have been the best heavy to ever do it. And Frazier was champ, was used to fighting wars and winning 'em, why would he change strategy?

Still, virtually impossible to win this way.

[PetethePrince]

Well put Shake, you hit the nail on the head.

I think Frazier did desire to be champ. But in the same way, would it have totaled near the tremendous guts, blood, heart, and effort had it not been Ali? I think we all know it wouldn't have as you intelligibly put it. Frazier had soul. Frazier claimed he kept fighting on despite bad joint and back pain (I believe that's what it was) because he still dreamed of being champ.

[Stevie G]

Oooo, nicely put.

I loved his reaction to the final days of Ali badmouthing Joe. He punched a hole in the gym wall and ironically warned Futch not to stop the fight in Manilla no matter what.

"It's him or me."
As someone once wrote,Muhammad and Joe were n't only fighting for the championship of the world. They were fighting for the championship of each other.

[he grant]

Joe Frazier is often cited as having a weak chin, by the standards of heavyweight champions. But I think to a large degree his toughness was directly tied to his passion in the ring. His fire.

He was dropped while relatively green against Bonavena, and of course Foreman bounced him around when he was unmotivated and ten pounds if not more above his best fighting weight.

But I think Frazier deserves far, far more credit for his how his chin held up against Ali in their three fights, especially their third.

Think about it. Ali more then likely never hit a fighter harder then he hit Frazier that night.

In comparison against Bonavena, Ali stopped him in the 15th, knocking him down multiple times. Oscar is thought of as having a cast iron jaw. Ali's shots against Oscar had absolutely nothing compared to how he was sitting down and unloading on Frazier in their third fight. Yet in over 40 rounds against Frazier Ali could never even get him off his feet.

It took Ali 8 rounds to get the iron jawed George Foreman out of there.

Frazier's passion and hatred against Ali, in my opinion, made him borderline indestructable. He could be stunned, buzzed, put on queer street... But knocked down, truly stopped by Ali? Doubtful.

I think his chin in the Ali fights was unbelievable, even if you think it was piss poor against Foreman or other fighters.

Frazier had a terrific chin.

His style forced him to take far more risks than most. He was legally blind in one eye through out his whole career. Considering these facts and the size of the men he fought I see him as having a great chin.

[Duodenum]

Good post, you forgot about Manila though. Ali staggered Frazier like 3-4 times in rounds 13 and 14. Besides his fight against Foreman, I have never seen Frazier stagger like that.The reason I mentioned round two of Fight II over those late rounds in Manila is in part due to Frazier corner man Milt Bailey's on camera testimony that both combatants were largely reduced to slaps by the championship rounds in that third brawl. Both were exhausted, and Joe was staggering backwards with fatigue from right hands he couldn't see. But Muhammad did not appear to have retained the kind of late round power he carried in dispatching Bonavena and Wepner by the same stage in Manila. In round two of Fight II, he was obviously at full strength though.

Over two and a half years ago, I said in this thread that Tony Perez may well have saved Frazier from a knockdown by his premature gaffe. On review of that footage though, if Ali was ever going to deck Frazier, he would have done it with the first right hand which started that sequence. That shot came close to dropping Joe on his face, but once Frazier recovered his balance and began retreating into a neutral corner, he'd regained a secure defensive posture. (Smoke would have been REALLY pissed and embarrassed if Muhammad had avenged the FOTC knockdown though. Such an occurrence might have turned Fight II into a barn burner comparable to I & III.)

[Kalasinn]

Frazier's resistance to concussive power is more limited than many HW champs.

His resistance to punishment is not.

Perfect summary, a clean shot on the chin from a puncher has a good chance of dropping Frazier, but he would keep coming forward absorbing punishment & getting up until you punched him into the grave, if it wasn't for the ref or his corner saving him from himself. One of the most shocking images in boxing is Frazier with his eyes severly swollen & his mouth full of blood, grinning & tapping his chin, inviting Ali to land more punches in Manila. At one point Joe was even tapping his badly swollen eye, encouraging more punishment there! :!:

[he grant]

As someone once wrote,Muhammad and Joe were n't only fighting for the championship of the world. They were fighting for the championship of each other.

Thomas Hauser's line ...