The Dirtiest Fighting HW Champ Ever

[dav8d777]

I just had to put this out there for opinions since I've been watching some Max Baer films. So, who was the dirtiest fighter of all the heavyweight champs?

[dav8d777]

I know over at BoxRec it was argued if Ali was a dirty fighter as well, with his showing against many a contender, pushing down on the heads of his opponents, and in Terrell's case, supposed thumbing of the eyes.

Baer, when he fought Schmeling, hit him with a few backhanded punches, did low blows to Jim Braddock, etc he's a good nominee for the title; but for my money Tyson takes the cake, though most of his antics were done after losing the title.

Tyson was a bad sport to be sure. I have read that Marciano did a lot of raking the glove strings across the eyes, etc. but I haven't seen it. I have seen Marciano rabbit punch with abandon. Baer got away with a lot of holding behind the head and backhanding.

For my money though it has to be Holyfield with the head jab. He hasn't been called on it and he's a hypocrite about it.

[Duodenum]

Pre-Tyson, Jack Sharkey. Iron Bite's cannibalization of Hammerhead's ear takes the cake though.

[heehoo]

Mike Tyson all the way.. biting ears, elbowing opponents, you name it, he did it.

[Maxmomer]

Dempsey.

[WhataRock]

Its an interesting topic because the context of when fighters like Dempsey, Sharkey and Baer were doing it was different...Im not so sure if was considered all that dirty back then, it was all fair game...the rules were different and their interpretations certainly were.

[nervousxtian]

Tyson wasn't dirty until he was desperate, honestly. When his skills declined, he resorted to dirty tactics.

I still to this day think Ali was a dirty dirty fighter, he got away with a lot of bullshit in his time as well.

[natonic]

Tyson.

[Dempsey1238]

Nothing against the rules in hitting them on the arms, sure no points are being scored for that, but again nothing against the rules.

[mcvey]

I know the Marciano-Cockell fight was labeled dirty, but in my opinion, the Brits were just all up in arms that Cockell couldnt do a damned thing to The Rock, and Marciano had him all over the place, albiet he hit him on the arms, top of the head, body, like he always done.
Not to mention when he was on the floor :lol:

[stonerose]

I reckon the older fighters pre-war were more inclined to push the boudaries but of the modern era Tyson was pretty dirty. That shit he used to do trying to break his opponents arm. Used to go through me.

[zadfrak]

Holmes and that thunbing come to mind.

[Dempsey1238]

Not to mention when he was on the floor :lol:

That was relly the only out and out foul I saw from Marciano from the Cockell fight, people may mention the rabbit punch in round 8, but Cockell turn away from that punch.(Hench the reason why he was on the ropes) You cant relly hit some one fair and square when they turn there back on you while your thowing the punch.

Didnt relly see anything relly out there compare to other Marciano fights, he would have hit Moore when he was down, on the last knockdown, but he miss, He thown that left, as Moore was going down, and miss because well, Moore went down faster lol.
He may have bend the rules, but not relly a dirty fighter.

[OLD FOGEY]

Hitting to the back of the head was legal in the fifties, at least in the United States. I remember the discussion of the second knockdown in the Patterson-Johansson fight when Ingo hit Floyd on the back of the head. It was pointed out by many that Ingo had done nothing wrong.
A rabbit punch, at least in those days, was defined as hitting on the back of the neck while in a clinch. It was still done a lot.

[Dempsey1238]

Hitting to the back of the head was legal in the fifties, at least in the United States. I remember the discussion of the second knockdown in the Patterson-Johansson fight when Ingo hit Floyd on the back of the head. It was pointed out by many that Ingo had done nothing wrong.
A rabbit punch, at least in those days, was defined as hitting on the back of the neck while in a clinch. It was still done a lot.

If it was legel, how come Charlie Dagget, the ref of Marciano Walcott, said no rabbit punchings(after the question was ask if a punch to the back of the head was a fair or foul punch,)

Even the ref for Dempsey Tunney II, gave Dempsey plenty of warnings on the back of the head punching.

[OLD FOGEY]

If it was legel, how come Charlie Dagget, the ref of Marciano Walcott, said no rabbit punchings(after the question was ask if a punch to the back of the head was a fair or foul punch,)

Even the ref for Dempsey Tunney II, gave Dempsey plenty of warnings on the back of the head punching.

Okay. But what exactly did Daggert mean by "rabbit punching".

[Dempsey1238]

Al ask if a punch to the back of the head was fair or foul.

And Dagget replie, No kidney or rabbit punchs, I going to call em if I do.

[OLD FOGEY]

Al ask if a punch to the back of the head was fair or foul.

And Dagget replie, No kidney or rabbit punchs, I going to call em if I do.


Can you give me a case from the fifties in which a fighter lost points or was disqualified for hitting to the back of the head?

[Dempsey1238]

Hell, I pretty sure, Tyson would have bite Holyfiled's ear off in the 50's, and they let it go. As said before they were very lax. Max Baer was backhanded MOST of his foes(OR the way it was told before the crash"The Baer bitch slap") and the most he got was a warning. The ref in ten rounds vs the Baer Schemling fight, only warn Baer like what
? 1 or 2 times, of couse Baer did more than that, shortly before the ko, Baer swing his arm back and forth with the German on the ropes, and no warning.

[red cobra]

The most brutally effective dirty fighter was Dempsey, who could ko a Jack Sharkey with one beaut of a sneak left while the nut-case was bitching to the referee. Remember that Dempsey once gave lessons to Max Baer in a restaurant on fighting dirty, after the decision Max lost to Tommy Loughran.

[Bokaj]

Tyson wasn't dirty until he was desperate, honestly. When his skills declined, he resorted to dirty tactics.

BS. He elbowed Biggs, tried to hit Tubbs when he was on the floor and headbutted Williams on his way down. He hardly was desperate any of those times.

Hell, there's an old clip of him continuing to batter an opponent even though the ref tries to pull him off. But he's like a rabid dog and pays the ref no mind.

[Jear]

Marciano, intentionally or not did a lot of things outside the boundaries of the sport. Elbows, heads, shoulders, hitting hips and thighs.
Holyfield is not the cleanest fighter around uses a few of these himself.
Not a champion but Golotas headbutting, biting and low blows are among the more blatant examples of dirty fighting

[dav8d777]

The most brutally effective dirty fighter was Dempsey, who could ko a Jack Sharkey with one beaut of a sneak left while the nut-case was bitching to the referee. Remember that Dempsey once gave lessons to Max Baer in a restaurant on fighting dirty, after the decision Max lost to Tommy Loughran.

I think Sharkey should have remembered the golden rule and protected himself at all times. That blow was legal.

[janitor]

Are we talking smart dirty or dumb dirty.

There is an important diference.

[dav8d777]

Can you give me a case from the fifties in which a fighter lost points or was disqualified for hitting to the back of the head?

Nope. It might have been even worse in the 30s.

[dav8d777]

Hitting to the back of the head was legal in the fifties, at least in the United States. I remember the discussion of the second knockdown in the Patterson-Johansson fight when Ingo hit Floyd on the back of the head. It was pointed out by many that Ingo had done nothing wrong.
A rabbit punch, at least in those days, was defined as hitting on the back of the neck while in a clinch. It was still done a lot.

Rabbit punches were banned in 1941. The rabbit punch was defined as a blow to the back of the neck or the base of the skull, so it is not technically any blow to the back of the head, but is generally included.

[FromWithin]

Andrew Golota :lol:

[OLD FOGEY]

Rabbit punches were banned in 1941. The rabbit punch was defined as a blow to the back of the neck or the base of the skull, so it is not technically any blow to the back of the head, but is generally included.

Banned by whom? Who was the central authority? The New York State Athletic Commission was generally a law onto itself, and then there was the NBA and a whole slew of separate state athletic organizations. My question is serious. Who exactly banned rabbit punching?

Dempsey1238 quoted a Pennsylvania referee, but what about New York state or California? What were their actual rules?

[Mendoza]

I just had to put this out there for opinions since I've been watching some Max Baer films. So, who was the dirtiest fighter of all the heavyweight champs?

If dirty means fouls such as rabbit punching, kidney shots, low blows, elbows, head butts, biting and such, I'd say the following champions had their share of dirty moments:

Dempsey
Baer
Marciano
Liston
Tyson
Holyfield

[Dempsey1238]

Lets not forget the low blow Louis gave to Max Schemling in there first fight. A few rounds before Louis got ko.

[Maxie's Gal]

The most brutally effective dirty fighter was Dempsey, who could ko a Jack Sharkey with one beaut of a sneak left while the nut-case was bitching to the referee. Remember that Dempsey once gave lessons to Max Baer in a restaurant on fighting dirty, after the decision Max lost to Tommy Loughran.

Max actually asked for help from both Loughran AND Dempsey:

In a move that shocked the press and was covered nationwide, Max showed up at Tommy's dressing room after the bout and asked Tommy for a boxing lesson. They met at a coffee shop near the Garden and "to the surprise of their fellow diners, some of whom had been at the fight, Tommy was buying Max lunch." Over sandwiches and java, Tommy discoursed on Max's weak left jab and his habit of telegraphing his punches. After lunch, as patrons gaped like a brace of fish strung on a line, the two boxers strolled out and proceeded to a gymnasium, where the master taught his apt student some tricks of the trade.

The next day, Max met Jack and sport writer Grantland Rice for lunch at the Warwick Hotel in New York City. Baer complained that in his match with Loughran, "I've been looking at left jabs all night, lefts, lefts, lefts, that's all I've seen." To which Dempsey said, "you could have stopped that lefty in the first round." When Max asked how, Dempsey stood up and told him to take off his coat. By now all activity in the restaurant had come to a stand still. "Now lead with the left," said Jack and as Max shot out his left arm, Dempsey fired his right fist into Baer's left bicep. When Baer cried out "you broke my arm" Jack smiled and said "I'll show you another punch" and as they were dancing around as if in a clinch, Jack punched Max in the side. "That's illegal" said Max. "They'll only warn you the first time" grinned Jack and they sat back down to finish eating.

[Dempsey1238]

Dempsey also said make sure the last punch was legal. Hench the Sharkey thing.

[Minotauro]

Marciano and Holyfield were both dirty fighters.