Carlos Monzon .Vs. Marvin Hagler

[la-califa]

What if Carlos Monzon's last title defense was against Marvin Hagler. Did Monzon have enough skills left? Was Marvin ready for a title shot at this point? Fifteen rounds.

[robert ungurean]

I think the key is Marvins vastly underated rt. jab.
That jab would be the key in off setting Monzon's rythem & lead to his defeat on pts.
Too many people overlook Marvins skill because when he needs to be, he's a gr8 brawler.

[salsanchezfan]

Monzon by close, but well-earned decision.

[THN]

Monzon close ud.

[Lex]

Brutal fight with Monzon winning a squeaky close decision. And if the last Valdez fight hadn't convinced Monzon to retire, Hagler would. This woulda been hellagood, better than Hagler vs. Antuofermo.

[Executioner]

Monzon was past it by then, but still had enough to handle Hagler.

[rekcutnevets]

Monzon by dec., no one stops Hagler.

I think the fight would have a lot of action, but not much drama. I don't think these guys are capable of hurting each other to the point of adding suspence. I would, however, expect a feverish pace. I think it would be entertaining, but the end never really in doubt.

Monzon 116-112.

[la-califa]

Hagler always said he was long overdue for a title shot. So this fight could have happened. But at this point Monzon might have escaped with a decision win & retired. If Hagler ever fought Benvenuti or Valdez, this could have forced Monzon's hand into accepting the challenge.

[JohnThomas1]

Monzon would have decisioned Marvin in a close one at this stage. Both were going in different directions.

[Chicago Nights]

It's very simple. Marvin buries his head in Monzon's chest and proceeds to bore holes in his torso for 15 rds, taking at least 11 rds clearly.

[la-califa]

If it was that simple. Briscoe would have dethroned Monzon years earlier.

[Street Lethal]

Hagler was ready. The torch would have been passed in that fight.

[brooklyn1550]

Hagler by close decision

[laxpdx]

Hagler, either by UD or possible late rounds TKO. Marvin to me was the ultimate fighting machine.He had that perfect blend of everything. He methodically steamrolled one guy after another.

[CASH_718]

Judah KO 1

[JohnThomas1]

Hagler was ready. The torch would have been passed in that fight.

Marvin wasn't yet ready, his draw with Antufermo was still a full 2 years away, he would have been a bit greener again and Monzon tougher.

[McGrain]

Monzon would have taken Hagler to school at that stage in my opinion.

I wonder how this loss would have affected Hagler's career trajectory?

It's possible that he would actually make it a better fighter sooner?

[JohnThomas1]

Monzon would have taken Hagler to school at that stage in my opinion.

I wonder how this loss would have affected Hagler's career trajectory?

It's possible that he would actually make it a better fighter sooner?

It sure wouldn't have hurt him IMO. I think it would have sped him up.

[Manassa]

If it was that simple. Briscoe would have dethroned Monzon years earlier.

Yep. Instead, he was shut out.

[laxpdx]

So is this fight supposed to take place at the end of Chuckie's career? I made my post thinking it was prime for prime.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Hagler wasn't quite ready for the big one in 1977 as his huge points loss to Monroe and his struggle with Colbert prove. Carlos UD. 145-140.

[red cobra]

Monzon defeated TWICE a prime, red-hot Rodrigo Valdez. If you want to talk about an underrated fighter it would be Valdez. He would have been a real superstar if it weren't for Monzon. Carlos, at the very end of his career, would have likewise had enough in the tank to decision Hagler as well. It would have been as close as the Valdez fights but Monzon would have taken him. Monzon was an extraordinary fighter, not just an every day champion. He would have dominated or at least cleanly defeated any middlleweight champion of history. He was as dominant if not more so than Ali or Duran were in theirs.

[TBooze]

What if Carlos Monzon's last title defense was against Marvin Hagler. Did Monzon have enough skills left? Was Marvin ready for a title shot at this point? Fifteen rounds.

Hagler was still learning his trade, whilst in his final defence Monzon was beating the very underrated Valdez (again).

Hagler's comming out fight was Colbert later that year; if he fought Monzon in July he would not have enough to compete with Monzon.

Monzon WU15 (11-4)

[JohnThomas1]

Monzon defeated TWICE a prime, red-hot Rodrigo Valdez. If you want to talk about an underrated fighter it would be Valdez. He would have been a real superstar if it weren't for Monzon. Carlos, at the very end of his career, would have likewise had enough in the tank to decision Hagler as well. It would have been as close as the Valdez fights but Monzon would have taken him. Monzon was an extraordinary fighter, not just an every day champion. He would have dominated or at least cleanly defeated any middlleweight champion of history. He was as dominant if not more so than Ali or Duran were in theirs.

How would you see a Valdez - Hagler fight going?

[redrooster]

Marvin had a good jab but Carlos´ was better and he had the longer reach. I think the Monzon of the second Valdez fight eeks out a very close decision, 8-7 in rounds, over a Hagler of the same time.
Prime for prime i would also chose Monzon but not that close, 9 rounds to 6 or something like that.

This wouldn't be a jabbing contest like people think with Marvin at the end of Monzon's jab - I think Marvin might even intimidate him because of his superior athletic abilties so the edge has to go to Hagler.

Forget about Dinner's account of the Colbert fight, who never saw it to begin with. Marvin had been decimating the competition in a way Monzon rarely did and had the edge in almost every area you could think of except experience. But what southpaw did Monzon face from the States? I don't think he faced many in his career.

If you look at the films, Monzon's punches, especially the jab, came out at you in slow motion and could accurately be described as a pawing jab rather than a head snapping waepon that rivalled the best jabs in history (Camacho )

marvin's a southpaw anyhow so Carlos wouldn't have any success with the jab and in fact, it is marvin who'd be doing all the scoring.

on top of that marvin busted you up with his, monzon never did and the reach advantage is misleading because of his height. Marvin puts them together better than Monzon who was never a combination puncher anyhow, expecially on the inside.

The only way Marvin can lose if he tires badly in the late rounds.

In the end, monzon's reputation for heavy smoking and disregard for training catches up with him as flounders late while Hagler gains strength and momentum. The fact that he understimated the challenge of Hagler would be his downfall and finally loses his title to the greatest middleweight of all time.

[redrooster]

How would you see a Valdez - Hagler fight going?

One way traffic in Hagler's favor. Hagler wins 12-3.

[Ted Spoon]

Hagler's youth and enthusiasm would be well countered by Monzon's great experience. Monzon's boxing brain worked superbly because he was always so composed, never one to be overawed.

Hagler would be juiced up on nervous energy and have good spells, but make mistakes that Carlos would punish with his array of punches as he fights at a calculated pace.

Even prime 4 prime, Marvin does not possess the needed trickery to take away from Monzon's + points. Hagler would box with him and have to contend with a more powerful, awkward target.

Monzon's uncanny knack to casually lean out of harms way would make Marvin over-reach with his bread n' butter, and then Carlos would chop away.

Hagler was fantastic at everything, but Monzon would confuse him. His 'cock/stop then shoot' style of punching would leave Hagler nonplussed before he copped those round stealing corkers.

UD for King Carlos in any situation.

[Street Lethal]

This was around the time that Hagler won the Mass version of the world middleweight title. He was smoking them. The more I think about it the more I think Monzon would have been soundly beaten.

[salsanchezfan]

This was around the time that Hagler won the Mass version of the world middleweight title. He was smoking them. The more I think about it the more I think Monzon would have been soundly beaten.


...........Which Monzon fights have you seen?

[Executioner]

:huh You act like Hagler was that much worse. Prime for prime I would maybe take Monzon due to size, but a past it Monzon loses to Hagler.

What I said came out wrong, lol. I do believe Monzon is the better fighter though and think by this time he still could have won in a very, very close fight and probably a SD for Monzon. However, if this is Hagler during his title reign, I'd have to give to the edge to him.

[My dinner with Conteh]

This was around the time that Hagler won the Mass version of the world middleweight title. He was smoking them. The more I think about it the more I think Monzon would have been soundly beaten.


The 'Mass' version of the middleweight title, eh. :lol:

Wasn't that the fight where he was taken to school by Mike Colbert for 11 rounds? And we all know how brilliant Colbert was. :nut

[Street Lethal]

...........Which Monzon fights have you seen?

I own the Benvenuti, Griffith, Valdez fights. I have seen some of his other fights. Which ones have you seen?

[Street Lethal]

Wasn't that the fight where he was taken to school by Mike Colbert for 11 rounds? And we all know how brilliant Colbert was. :nut

It was the fight where Hagler broke Colbert's jaw and knocked him out. As Hagler put it, "A man has to run out of gas sometime." I don't characterize running as boxing. Monzon didn't run.

[My dinner with Conteh]

It was the fight where Hagler broke Colbert's jaw and knocked him out. As Hagler put it, "A man has to run out of gas sometime." I don't characterize running as boxing. Monzon didn't run.


Neither did Monroe in their first meeting- and he won virtually every round against Marv. Of course, Hagler won the rematches, but they both took place after Monroe was iced by Love- and the second fight was very close too.

[Street Lethal]

Monzon lost some early fights, too. More than Hagler, in fact. We are talking about where they were at the time. Hagler dominated Colbert through the early rounds because all Colbert did was run. Colbert had some good middle rounds, but Hagler was setting the trap. Hagler was all over Colbert in the 11th and it was only a matter of time from that point. Hagler iced him with a single right hook. Colbert was undefeated and the number one contender. The fight was scheduled for 15, so even if Hagler hadn't knocked him out, he was on track to win a convincing points victory. The Colbert fight argues against your point.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Monzon lost some early fights, too. More than Hagler, in fact. We are talking about where they were at the time. Hagler dominated Colbert through the early rounds because all Colbert did was run. Colbert had some good middle rounds, but Hagler was setting the trap. Hagler was all over Colbert in the 11th and it was only a matter of time from that point. Hagler iced him with a single right hook. Colbert was undefeated and the number one contender. The fight was scheduled for 15, so even if Hagler hadn't knocked him out, he was on track to win a convincing points victory. The Colbert fight argues against your point.


It doesn't. Most ringsiders had Colbert ahead. For example, Jack Obermeyer had it 7-4 Colbert, Eddie Cool of Boxing News had an even bigger gap of 8-3. Colbert was number one contender in Ring magazine only (the year of the phoney ratings scam). He was rated about 7th in Boxing News.

Also, the Monzon early losses point is mute. We're talking 1977.

[Street Lethal]

It sounds like you're really biased towards Hagler.

[Street Lethal]

More like you´re too much of a fan to be objective.

I'm a big fan of both fighters. It's just that Hagler was better and had a more impressive reign. Prime Hagler was too much for prime Monzon to handle. The 1977 version of both fighters makes Monzon's prospects even less.

[My dinner with Conteh]

It sounds like you're really biased towards Hagler.


It appears to be you that is lacking in objectivity here- as someone just noted.

[Street Lethal]

Hagler looked more impressive because of his style and the fighters he faced were inferior to Monzon´s competition. The 1977 Monzon is still too much for the 1977 Hagler. Prime for prime it´s the same. Monzon was better than Hagler, not by far but better.

Hagler's opposition was better, that's why his reign was more impressive. I am never impressed when a fighter blows through inferior opposition. Monzon should have looked better than he did given his opposition.

Like I said, I am big fan of Monzon, but people overestimate his greatness because of the length of his title reign and the number of title defenses. He's top five, but he's not top three. Hagler, Robinson, and Jones were better.

[Chicago Nights]

After reading that i won´t discuss with you anymore. Jones over Monzon at mw? No way. Jones isn´t even a top10 mw, hedidn´t do enough there to be considered that high.
And Monzon beat superior opposition, Benvenuti, Napoles, Griffith, Briscoe, Valdez are above the Hamshos and Mugabis of these worlds and at least as good as Hearns and Duran.

Monzon did not face or beat one fighter equal to Hearns. Not one. Those guys you just rattled off would have been DESTROYED by the Hitman.

[TBooze]

Monzon did not face or beat one fighter equal to Hearns. Not one. Those guys you just rattled off would have been DESTROYED by the Hitman.

Not at Middleweight, although I see Hearns beating Benvenuti at 154lbs, at Middle, Nino wins. Griffith does the Hitman at 147, and it is pick-em at 160.

Tommy was never quite the same fighter once he went above 154 IMO.

[Chicago Nights]

Not at Middleweight, although I see Hearns beating Benvenuti at 154lbs, at Middle, Nino wins. Griffith does the Hitman at 147, and it is pick-em at 160.

Tommy was never quite the same fighter once he went above 154 IMO.

He wasn't the same but he still had great power. Besides, Nino is one of the most overrated and pampered MW's ever. Tommy was a towering freak, and would have knocked him stone fucking cold.

[TBooze]

He wasn't the same but he still had great power. Besides, Nino is one of the most overrated and pampered MW's ever. Tommy was a towering freak, and would have knocked him stone fucking cold.

I only saw proper Hearns power once above 154 (Vs Schuler) and Benvenuti was at least a couple of levels above James Schuler.

Tommy's legs were never quite right post 1984, I take prime 160lbs Benvenuti to use that to his advantage on the way to late stoppage.

Nino TKO14

[My dinner with Conteh]

I am never impressed when a fighter blows through inferior opposition.


You talking about Hagler here. :good

people overestimate his greatness because of the length of his title reign and the number of title defenses.


It seems you're talking about Marv again. :yep

[My dinner with Conteh]

Chinny Hearns was no Griffith or Benvenuti at middlweight. Of course, he looked great when hitting other people. Tommy's best work came at 147/154 everyone knows that.

[My dinner with Conteh]

After reading that i won´t discuss with you anymore. Jones over Monzon at mw? No way. Jones isn´t even a top10 mw, hedidn´t do enough there to be considered that high.
And Monzon beat superior opposition, Benvenuti, Napoles, Griffith, Briscoe, Valdez are above the Hamshos and Mugabis of these worlds and at least as good as Hearns and Duran.



Yup. Look at the Napoles and Duran fights. 1974 Jose was considered the best pfp in boxing; 1983 Duran may have squeeked into the Top 12 list. Carlos beat Napoles like he was his daddy. Meanwhile, Hagler was starstruck and was asking for Roberto's autograph in the clinches.

[redrooster]

The 'Mass' version of the middleweight title, eh. :lol:

Wasn't that the fight where he was taken to school by Mike Colbert for 11 rounds? And we all know how brilliant Colbert was. :nut

We'd all believe except we know you're fabricating since you know no one can see tape of it and are really making the "school" part up. why don't you stop embarrassing yourself?

[redrooster]

Yup. Look at the Napoles and Duran fights. 1974 Jose was considered the best pfp in boxing; 1983 Duran may have squeeked into the Top 12 list. Carlos beat Napoles like he was his daddy. Meanwhile, Hagler was starstruck and was asking for Roberto's autograph in the clinches.

Napoles was on the downslide for at least a year and was another year from losing his title--big deal

Monzon ko 6 Napoles
Stracey ko 6 Napoles

What's the difference?

[redrooster]

The 'Mass' version of the middleweight title, eh. :lol:

Wasn't that the fight where he was taken to school by Mike Colbert for 11 rounds? And we all know how brilliant Colbert was. :nut

Why don't you just tell the truth for once and tell what really happened?

Hagler broke his jaw, knocked him out, and retired him. You call that a schooling?

[My dinner with Conteh]

Why don't you just tell the truth for once and tell what really happened?

Hagler broke his jaw, knocked him out, and retired him. You call that a schooling?


Schooled for 11 rounds it says against a contender whose bogus ranking was woefully misplaced. Just ask Jack Obermeyer. :D


The Massachusetts title. What a joke. Colbert received his shot by beating the drummer out of Boston on a split decision and drawing over 10 rounds with Kim Deal from the Pixies.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Napoles was on the downslide for at least a year and was another year from losing his title--big deal

Monzon ko 6 Napoles
Stracey ko 6 Napoles

What's the difference?


One was nearly two years later. Just like Hagler's crappy, starstruck effort against Leonard was two years after his famous Tommy victory.

[redrooster]

One was nearly two years later. Just like Hagler's crappy, starstruck effort against Leonard was two years after his famous Tommy victory.

it was the following year. why are you always lying for?

[My dinner with Conteh]

Feb 1974 - December 1975 is, like I said, nearly two years you stupid cunt.



[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[dmt]

Feb 1974 - December 1975 is, like I said, nearly two years you stupid cunt.



[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[redrooster]

Feb 1974 - December 1975 is, like I said, nearly two years you stupid cunt.



[Only registered and activated users can see links]

You always resort to the name calling "cunt" every time you get frustrated. Can't figure why you keep showing off your family album. :D

[JohnThomas1]

Feb 1974 - December 1975 is, like I said, nearly two years you stupid cunt.



[Only registered and activated users can see links]


:rofl

:good

[Lex]

The 'Mass' version of the middleweight title, eh. :lol:

Wasn't that the fight where he was taken to school by Mike Colbert for 11 rounds? And we all know how brilliant Colbert was. :nut

Aww, Colbert wasn't that bad. Heck, he fought one-handed most of the time 'cause his other hand was hanging onto the ropes - probably out of desperate fear! He was kinda fun to watch because his style was so awkward he made other boxers look silly.

[Lex]

Monzon did not face or beat one fighter equal to Hearns. Not one. Those guys you just rattled off would have been DESTROYED by the Hitman.

You really believe Tommy Hearns at middleweight would have "destroyed" Nino Benvenuti? Ever see Benvenuti fight? He was big, strong, smart a hard hitter and a pretty slick boxer.

And Emile Griffith is arguably the best fighter ever to have crossed over from welter to light middle to middleweight and back down to welterweight, winning titles all along the way against top competition, not cherry picked bums.

You may not be old enough to remember that during Hagler's title years he was criticized the same way Roy Jones and Bernard Hopkins have been - that his level of competition was relatively weak compared with Monzon's, Griffith's, Giardello's, Tiger's, Fullmer's, etc., to say nothing of SRR. Personally, I don't buy it. Hagler faced good competition and proved he was the best at the time and one of the best all time MWs.

[Manassa]

Valdez would have ripped Hearns a new arsehole.

[McGrain]

Valdez would have ripped Hearns a new arsehole.


Why?!

[Manassa]

Why?!

Because there were rumours that Hearns was trying to get off with Emile Griffith. Valdez, Griffith's former lover and lifetime friend, was not happy.

[McGrain]

Because there were rumours that Hearns was trying to get off with Emile Griffith. Valdez, Griffith's former lover and lifetime friend, was not happy.

:lol:

Deep.

[Street Lethal]

One was nearly two years later. Just like Hagler's crappy, starstruck effort against Leonard was two years after his famous Tommy victory.

So your hatred for Hagler is rooted in what?

[Stonehands89]

I'm just getting lonelier and lonelier out here, first I pick Bowe over Lewis, then Monzon over Jones, now it's Hagler over Monzon.

Then again, prime Hagler over any Monzon, but not the 1977 versions. Monzon would have earned a decision had he fought Hagler in lieu of Valdez. One word: experience. "Age and guile defeat youth and speed."

[Street Lethal]

After the Monroe Loss, Hagler was ready to win the title. He would have defeated Monzon anytime after that until around the Mugabi fight.

[My dinner with Conteh]

So your hatred for Hagler is rooted in what?


He beat Bertha up once too often. She's my second cousin (on my dad's side).

[My dinner with Conteh]

Because there were rumours that Hearns was trying to get off with Emile Griffith. Valdez, Griffith's former lover and lifetime friend, was not happy.


:lol:

[combatesdeboxeo]

Monzon defeated TWICE a prime, red-hot Rodrigo Valdez. If you want to talk about an underrated fighter it would be Valdez. He would have been a real superstar if it weren't for Monzon. Carlos, at the very end of his career, would have likewise had enough in the tank to decision Hagler as well. It would have been as close as the Valdez fights but Monzon would have taken him. Monzon was an extraordinary fighter, not just an every day champion. He would have dominated or at least cleanly defeated any middlleweight champion of history. He was as dominant if not more so than Ali or Duran were in theirs.
i agree on that monzón would beat hagler by ud. but ali was more dominant and he had better rivals. liston,patterson,frazier, norton,foreman,quarry,ellis,moore.
they were better than benvenuti,middle weight emille, briscoe,valdez,mantequilla napoles ..

[Brummy1976]

It's very simple. Marvin buries his head in Monzon's chest and proceeds to bore holes in his torso for 15 rds, taking at least 11 rds clearly.Nah, monzon would have something for him with those tactics.Hagler has to utilise the jab to make this competitive

[DonBoxer]

Monzon close UD . Monzon is past prime and Hagler is still green . Would have been amazing for Monzons resume for Hagler to go on and dominate as he did.

[turpinr]

hagler in a close fight.

[MAG1965]

What if Carlos Monzon's last title defense was against Marvin Hagler. Did Monzon have enough skills left? Was Marvin ready for a title shot at this point? Fifteen rounds.prime for prime I pick Marvin, but at that point I pick Monzon.

[Stevie G]

prime for prime I pick Marvin, but at that point I pick Monzon.
Word for word,practically,what I would say.

[combatesdeboxeo]

Prime vs prime probably carlos would win and at that point probably monzÓn would win too. Carlos was stronger, bigger, with a good jab, good chin,he was a savage,he had heart,stamina...i can see no motive to say carlos would not win

[turpinr]

Prime vs prime probably carlos would win and at that point probably monzÓn would win too. Carlos was stronger, bigger, with a good jab, good chin,he was a savage,he had heart,stamina...i can see no motive to say carlos would not winapart from the bigger bit hagler matches him everywhere

[combatesdeboxeo]

apart from the bigger bit hagler matches him everywhere
BIGGER AND STRONGER, and the hitting power was close, the stamina was close,the heart was close, they both had good chin, i would give the chin to marvin by a bit. i think that carlos would handle hagler pretty well. he did handle very good punchers, briscoe had the size of marvin, he had similar strength and similar hitting power.
tommas hearns had the hitting power and the reach but he had glass chin.

[turpinr]

BIGGER AND STRONGER, and the hitting power was close, the stamina was close,the heart was close, they both had good chin, i would give the chin to marvin by a bit. i think that carlos would handle hagler pretty well. he did handle very good punchers, briscoe had the size of marvin, he had similar strength and similar hitting power.
tommas hearns had the hitting power and the reach but he had glass chin.:goodhagler was very careful when he beat briscoe.bad bennie wanted to brawl but hagler was cuter and used his feet.

[red cobra]

apart from the bigger bit hagler matches him everywhere
Not in ring generalship and smarts.

[Stevie G]

He beat Bertha up once too often. She's my second cousin (on my dad's side).
Sorry to hear that mate. Was this when Hagler went through his post Leonard drug haze ? Not that it's an excuse,as there is NO excuse whatsoever for a man laying a hand on a woman.

[turpinr]

Sorry to hear that mate. Was this when Hagler went through his post Leonard drug haze ? Not that it's an excuse,as there is NO excuse whatsoever for a man laying a hand on a woman.except if its maggie thatcher:lol::lol:

[Stevie G]

except if its maggie thatcher:lol::lol:
:lol: Yeah. Not sure if she can be categorised as a woman though !

[turpinr]

:lol: Yeah. Not sure if she can be categorised as a woman though !:lol:or a human

[techks]

I actually think Monzon hit harder and was a better ring general. I became a fan of him last night as I was going through some videos of him. He seemed to always be in control and didn't panic or get frustrated from what I've seen. I have seen Hagler get frustrated in Vito 1 & against Leonard. As of now, I'm a fan of the big 3(Hagler,Monzon,Hopkins) not that I rate them that way though as Hopkins is not top 3 lol. Top 10? I see him being top 5 but definitely not lower than top 10 which is still a huge accomplishment.

[he grant]

An amazing fight .. I think the route to beating Hagler was speed and that was not Carlos' game ... a terrific fight that goes the distance ... The very best Marvin wins a decision .. I feel he was too fast, too sharp and would bust Carlos up along the way ... still, very , very close ...

[D.T]

? This forum is weird.

Hagler wins a UD at any point in their respective careers.

[combatesdeboxeo]

honestly i think that green monzón would beat a green hagler, prime vs prime monzón wins 2/3 fights and past prime monzón would beat past prime hagler.
i think that just the real sugar would beat monzón like middle. and it would be close.

[RockyJim]

The last Valdez fight was in 1977...I don't think Marvin was ready at that time...but in their primes...

[ricardoparker93]

Not at Middleweight, although I see Hearns beating Benvenuti at 154lbs, at Middle, Nino wins. Griffith does the Hitman at 147, and it is pick-em at 160.

Tommy was never quite the same fighter once he went above 154 IMO.


You think Griffith beats Hearns at welter? :-(

[TBooze]

You think Griffith beats Hearns at welter? :-(

Yeah Emile is too cute. Tommy was still a baby, learning his profession, and had not matured totally both physically and mentally.

Granted Pipino may beg to differ, but IMO Tommy did not truly show what the Motor City Cobra was about until he moved up to 154.

[red cobra]

Griffith, along with being still somewhat underrated here, was massively able at both welter and middle..yes he would beat Hearns.