From Ring mag website: 10 greatest British fighters of all time

[ishy]

1. Jimmy Wilde (137-5-2, 99 KOs; 1910-23): One of biggest punchers pound-for-pound ever

2. Ted “Kid” Lewis (232-44-24, 80 KOs; 1909-29): Second greatest Jewish fighter after Benny Leonard

3. Jackie “Kid” Berg (157-26-9, 61 KOs; 1924-45): Fought and beat many of America’s best

4. Joe Calzghe (46-0, 32 KOs; 1993-present): Perfect record is impressive but had few meaningful victories

5. Jim Driscoll (63-4-6, 39 KOs; 1901-19): Went 3-0 against the great George Dixon and beat Abe Attell

6. Benny Lynch (81-12-15, 34 KOs; 1931-38): Alcoholism curtailed his career and life

7. Ken Buchanan (61-8, 27 KOs; 1965-82): Had misfortune of being a contemporary of Roberto Duran

8. Lennox Lewis (41-2-1, 32 KOs; 1989-2003): Greatest British heavyweight of all-time

9. Owen Moran (65-19-8, 19 KOs; 1900-16): Had wars with some of the best little men ever

10. Randy Turpin (66-8-1, 45 KOs; 1946-64): Only the second man to beat the great Sugar Ray Robinson.

Five more: John Conteh, Nasem Hamed, Lloyd Honeygan, Barry McGuigan and Freddie Mills.

Note: Bob Fitzsimmons and Freddie Welsh, both British by birth, fought primarily outside Europe.

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Thoughts?

[Beeston Brawler]

Bullshit

No further comment.

How you can have Lewis and Buchanan out of a top five.....

Just showed whoever did it knows shit about boxing.

[ishy]

Calzaghe's a bit too high at 4 as well.

[Beeston Brawler]

I think Calzaghe fits somewhere in the lower half of the top 10, if there at all.

[ishy]

I think Calzaghe fits somewhere in the lower half of the top 10, if there at all.

Yeah, that sounds fair. Somewhere between 7 and 12.

[telboy66]

It's only an opinion guys it's not craved in stone, but its hard to argue with most of it

[dwilson]

Calzaghe has done nothing to ******t a top 20 spot. So he beat Kessler...so what. He defends a shit belt and beats some old guys. So what.


Len Harvey, Bruno, Minter and a stack others deserve more mention than him.

[Boxing Gloves]

I dont agree with the list at all, Lennox Lewis should be much higher, Calzaghe lower, Owen Moran wouldnt make my list, Freddie Welsh won the british and european title, if he aint british what the fuck is he? And Bob Fitzsimmons, well you can make an arguement i guess, but i class him as british. Id have Honeyghan in there aswell, you could make a case for Naz aswell.

[bored]

Out of curiosity did Fitzsimmons ever say whether he considered himself British or Kiwi or Yank?

Calzaghe is way too high, LL is too low.

[PaddyD1983]

Lennox should be top three for starters!

I havent seen enough of Moran to argue either way to be honest, but he rarely makes other people's lists. Bit more research needed on him from me.

Naz shouldnt even be mentioned!

[TFFP]

What the hell has fighting outside Europe got to do with it? :roll:

Especially in Welsh's case.

[PaddyD1983]

What the hell has fighting outside Europe got to do with it? :roll:

Especially in Welsh's case.

Agreed.

For clarity, if Bob Fitz is British he tops my list. But I'm happy to concede that he's not on the basis it puts Lennox in my top three. And I get happy about that :yep

[TFFP]

I can see the argument for Fitzsimmons not being included. He was born in the UK, which should erase any doubts, but I suppose he learnt all his boxing in Oceania.

Freddie Welsh was in the UK until his teens where he was taught my his grand dad, who was a mountain fighter. Shouldn't fighting in America help and not hinder him on lists? I thought guys were criticized when they didn't, yet he's left out?

[dwilson]

The Ring mag is always full of bullshit.

[GazOC]

Why does Barry Mac get in, or close to these lists?

[TFFP]

Jackie Kid Berg is an interesting one. It is often forgotten he holds a win over Kid Chocolate. There are a number of interesting scalps too.

[jc]

I dont see why Welsh and Fitz cant be ranked but Lennox can...?

Imo all of them are British.:D

[janitor]

It completely ignores the first 200 years of boxing history.

Apart from that it is bad as oposed to awfull.

[JonOli]

I just don't get the Calzaghe thing. He has a resume with is more or less replicated by many, many, average to good boxers (Ottke, Erdie, Darios etc etc) with a win over Kessler (still unproven at the top), and a recently twice beaten 43 year old Hopkins nailed on the end. How on earth does that make you the fourth Greatest Brit ever well ahead of Lewis.

This isn't an official list by Ring anyway, it's just one blokes Ring blog.

At the peak of his achievments now Calzaghe is only rated as no3 in the world (4 if you count Floyd). No way is thar far ahead of Lewis, imo. Swap him and Lennox and the list starts to look a bit better, imho.

[Beeston Brawler]

Hatton ought to be somewhere among the honourable mentions at least?

[JonOli]

4. Joe Calzghe (46-0, 32 KOs; 1993-present): Perfect record is impressive but had few meaningful victories.


I think he's placing a lot of currency on the 0.

[icemax]

Thoughts?

Sick joke

[TFFP]

I just don't get the Calzaghe thing. He has a resume with is more or less replicated by many, many, average to good boxers (Ottke, Erdie, Darios etc etc) with a win over Kessler (still unproven at the top), and a recently twice beaten 43 year old Hopkins nailed on the end. How on earth does that make you the fourth Greatest Brit ever well ahead of Lewis.

This isn't an official list by Ring anyway, it's just one blokes Ring blog.

At the peak of his achievments now Calzaghe is only rated as no3 in the world (4 if you count Floyd). No way is thar far ahead of Lewis, imo. Swap him and Lennox and the list starts to look a bit better, imho.
Would you care to explain to us how Ottke and Erdei have resumes replicating Calzaghe's?

[Beeston Brawler]

I think he is referring to hiding behind belts, rather than the guys they actually fought - plenty of meaningless defences, stagnating (which Calzaghe did, badly).

[TFFP]

Whatever he meant, he came out with shite as usual. I'm sure he'll be along shortly to tell us exactly how Erdei especially, and then Ottke have the same resume as Calzaghe.

[Beeston Brawler]

I think Calzaghe's resume is better than Erdei or Ottke, but he was guilty of hiding behind a title - and there was no 'building towards something' if you get me. Just meaningless defence or meaningless defence.

[JonOli]

Would you care to explain to us how Ottke and Erdei have resumes replicating Calzaghe's?


You know fully to well, side by side, up to the point where Calzaghe took on Lacy (which is what I said) there are many similarities. In fact Reid robbery aside, Ottke's resume is better then Calzaghe's up to the Lacy fight. Actually a victory over Glen Johnson probably rates above one over Lacy.

Joe has the resume of DariosW, Erdie, Kessler, Ottke, dutchboysam, etc etc... with wins over Kessler, and a twice beaten, old, but still decent Hopkins nailed on the end. You know it. Which is fine, it's not that bad, but how does that make you one of the greatest ever?

[TFFP]

Resume is very simple. It doesn't require great analytical skills to match up names and results on a record, and to have a bit of background knowledge as to the context of the victory.

What Calzaghe did or didn't do will be reflected in his resume when it is compared to Ottke and Erdei. And it was still an idiotic statement.

Taking somebodies best wins off a record is idiocy of the highest order too. Maybe if I take a few World Cups off Brazil they don't look quite as good.

[JonOli]

Brazil would still look very good, as they have depth and a rich history. Thanks for that you made my point.


You're trolling, my original point was perfectly valid. You then tried to make it sound like I stated Ottke had a better resume then Calzaghe, which is something I never said. BOGOFF.

[stakeout]

It's difficult to make direct comparisons but I always feel Dick McTaggart deserves a mention in these lists for his remarkable achievements in the amateur game in the 50s and 60s.

[TFFP]

No, Brazil would be back with the rest of the pack, or behind actually. Which fits in with your "point", if we take Calzaghe's best wins away he's the same as Erdei and Ottke :nut

Yeah...congratulations on this incisive comment...but he has those wins. Calzaghe was an undisputed champion, they never were. Calzaghe is a two weight champion, they never were. Calzaghe has the wins over Kessler, Lacy and Hopkins, they don't. Maybe you can see where you are going wrong.

You never actually had a legit point. It was based on taking away wins, which is the biggest sack of shit as far as trying to discredit somebody. In your imaginary world things must be great.

[JonOli]

I was highlighting the fact that Calzaghe's resume lacks any real depth in top quality, and is only 2 wins from that of other boxers ie Ottke, Erdie, DariosZ, Dutchboy sam etc etc. Those two wins are not that outstanding either. That is a perfectly valid point to make.

[TFFP]

It still doesn't even make sense, when you take away those wins you take away being an undisputed champion which is a career achievement and counts for more than just a win.

It's a completely pointless thing to start taking wins away to make points. Perhaps you can take away a few and I'll add a few make believe wins.

Take the resumes as they are. It's far more logical and sane. Any depth or lack of it will be self evident when you look at the real world resume, not the JonOli "I wish the resume looked like this" resume.

[JonOli]

Rubbish. I never took anything away, I took them as they are, and credited the wins separately (as a whole). I was simply breaking his resume down. I stand by my original statement. It highlights the lack of depth and is a perfectly valid point to make. I'm just sorry you are unable to see it.

[TFFP]

I'm able to see real world resumes. I think I might have to call you Cole, after the little boy in "The Sixth Sense". Do the imaginary people tell you about these fake resumes? :think

Why its so difficult to be able to look at how many good wins and come to a conclusion on the depth without taking wins away and then comparing the new fake resume to others...well its one of lifes mysteries for sure.

[JonOli]

I'm not taking anything away, but it is you who appears to want to wipe 95% of Calzaghe's resume, and not debate or discuss it. I have credited his best wins, and then gone on to look at the rest of his resume.

[TFFP]

You hardly credited him with anything. You took his best wins (and achievements) away from him and then tried to compare and contrast it against lesser fighters. I wouldn't like to see you when you are discrediting :yikes

I don't mind talking about any of Calzaghe's resume, although its got past the point where I care to do it as much as I did. When Calzaghe's good wins, decent wins etc are totaled up I'm pretty aware the rest of it isn't so good considering he has 46 fights. I don't need to make a disingenous point to prove that, its fairly evident.

[Fat Joe]

I've just tried Jonoli's technique of taking best wins off a resume, how does Hatton's look to you Jonoli, with a few wins taken off?

[JonOli]

I don't think Hattons resume is all that great, and besides he doesn't make the top four greatest British boxers ever off the back of it.

*and I know it's not purely based on resume, but I bet the author has placed a lot of value in that 0*

[Fat Joe]

*and I know it's not purely based on resume, but I bet the author has placed a lot of value in that 0*[/quote]

So he should

[JonOli]

Go easy on your mums Christmas sherry, lads.

[onourway]

*and I know it's not purely based on resume, but I bet the author has placed a lot of value in that 0*

So he should

Not really.

It's not hard to build a padded record like Calzaghe's.

[Mon43]

I just don't get the Calzaghe thing. He has a resume with is more or less replicated by many, many, average to good boxers (Ottke, Erdie, Darios etc etc) with a win over Kessler (still unproven at the top), and a recently twice beaten 43 year old Hopkins nailed on the end. How on earth does that make you the fourth Greatest Brit ever well ahead of Lewis.

This isn't an official list by Ring anyway, it's just one blokes Ring blog.

At the peak of his achievments now Calzaghe is only rated as no3 in the world (4 if you count Floyd). No way is thar far ahead of Lewis, imo. Swap him and Lennox and the list starts to look a bit better, imho.


What was the highest P4P ranking that Lewis ever achieved? Was he ever in the top 5. Not that P4P rakning really matter, Lewis has a superior recored and names/performances than JC and does deserve a higher placing.

Lewis is the best modern Brit.

[JonOli]

HW always get ranked poorly in p4p lists, but you are right it's not that relevant. I was just pointing out really that it's not that great if the man who is currently ranked the 4th best (if you count Floyd) in the world, is our 4th Greatest ever fighter. It doesn't say a huge amount for British boxing.

I agree with you anyway though, I think Lewis is the best modern day Brit. If people think Calzaghe ranks higher, then fair enough, everyone has a different opinion.

[Fat Joe]

Not really.

It's not hard to build a padded record like Calzaghe's.


I would have thought it is very hard to fight that many fights over that length of time and still not lose a single one.

[robpalmer135]

hammed is top 10 for me.

[onourway]

I would have thought it is very hard to fight that many fights over that length of time and still not lose a single one.

Not if you choose non challenges.

He missed out on all the great fighters of his era when they were at their best.

He has had 3 fights with which there was any doubt over the result, Kessler who is still unproven really, Hopkins who is old and Lacy who looks like the ultimate hypejob in hindsight.

Hatton could have a similar unbeaten record, but he fought the P4P#1 and is chasing another P4P#1.

Haye could have built a similar unbeaten record, but he constantly seeks the biggest challenges.

[9Ball]

hammed is top 10 for me.


:patsch

Absolutely no way Rob, he badly lost his only fight at genuine world class level. A prime Hamed wouldn't get anywhere near MAB or JMM or PAC or Morales etc..

Hatton should have an honourable mention if Naz does, very similar careers if you ask me. Although Hatton has done better following his crushing loss as opposed to Hamed who just shat himself and never got in the ring again....

JC is around 8-10 imo and LL should be top 3 without any doubt.

:hi:

[Beeston Brawler]

Hatton would be in the top 10, along with Calzaghe.

Hamed gets an honourable mention.

If Hatton beats say Pac and then JMM, would he go above Calzaghe?

[Grievesy]

Hatton would be in the top 10, along with Calzaghe.

Hamed gets an honourable mention.

If Hatton beats say Pac and then JMM, would he go above Calzaghe?

Hatton beats Pac and JMM, that's two wins that are better than any on Calzaghe's record, except maybe B-Hop. Whether it happens is another matter though.

[hit me HARDER]

does anyone think Honeyghan would even get an honourable mention if he'd not won a World Title, talent-wise?

And based on the combination of talent & accomplishments, does anyone feel that Herol Graham would have been anywhere near the top 10 had he won a World Title?

[Beeston Brawler]

I think Graham would crack a post-war top 10, but not an ATG list.

[icemax]

If Hatton beats say Pac and then JMM, would he go above Calzaghe?

I would travel anywhere to see Hatton take on Marquez

[GazOC]

I've just tried Jonoli's technique of taking best wins off a resume, how does Hatton's look to you Jonoli, with a few wins taken off?

Thats a fair question because its a trick thats been tried by TFFP when it suits his argument against Hatton. Hatton cheated against Zoo, JLC was shot....lets just rub all the best wins off a boxers record eh?

[JonOli]

Some people here must think an awful lot of Jermain Taylor.

[JonOli]

Thats a fair question because its a trick thats been tried by TFFP when it suits his argument against Hatton. Hatton cheated against Zoo, JLC was shot....lets just rub the wins off the record eh?


I never ever rubbed the wins off Calzaghes record I credited him for Two wins and stated it takes him clear of the others (but questioned how a Kessler and Hopkins win makes him so clear of Lennox Lewis)!! I then looked at the rest of the record and said it is no different from the resume of Ottke, or many other fighters. What is so wrong with that?

[GazOC]

I was trying to make the point that TFFP pulling you up for "taking" wins from Calzaghes record is the same as him dropping Zoo and JLC from Hattons record.

[mrplow182]

Hatton would be in the top 10, along with Calzaghe.

Hamed gets an honourable mention.

If Hatton beats say Pac and then JMM, would he go above Calzaghe?

Trouble with Hatton's big wins are that they came against guys the wrong side of 30, this is the case recently for Calzaghe too and indeed Lennox Lewis too....although his destruction of Golota was impressive indeed....Holyfield and Tyson were past it, as were Castillo and Tszyu, as were Hopkins and Eubank

I think in a way the best route to ranking those three is to compare their second tier of wins with each other as people can always pick holes in the Tyson/Tsyzu/Jones Jr victories

[JonOli]

I was trying to make the point that TFFP pulling you up for "taking" wins from Calzaghes record is the same as him dropping Zoo and JLC from Hattons record.


Yes, I see your point, but I never took them off his record. He was trying to twist the argument so people thought that - I guess he succeeded.

I give Calzaghe credit for his win over Kessler and a past best Hopkins (unlike he does). As for the rest of his resume, I simply say it is no different or greater from many other fighters - that is fact.

[onourway]

Trouble with Hatton's big wins are that they came against guys the wrong side of 30, this is the case recently for Calzaghe too and indeed Lennox Lewis too....although his destruction of Golota was impressive indeed....Holyfield and Tyson were past it, as were Castillo and Tszyu, as were Hopkins and Eubank

I think in a way the best route to ranking those three is to compare their second tier of wins with each other as people can always pick holes in the Tyson/Tsyzu/Jones Jr victories

Jones Jr and Tyson were shot to shit. It's very, very unfair to compare Tszyu with those two.

[mrplow182]

Jones Jr and Tyson were shot to shit. It's very, very unfair to compare Tszyu with those two.

Tszyu was past his best and had a long layoff, so from that point of view there's always a target for people to criticise....I think the actual W was more impressive than the performance that night, Ricky's will to win was untrue that night and even though it was scrappy he deserves all the credit in the world for getting the W

My broader point was that the biggest wins for LL,RH and JC can all be scrutinised so therefore looking at their next best victories should be taken into strong consideration

[Beeston Brawler]

Hopkins = past peak (Calzaghe = prime, near enough)
Jones = shot to bits (Calzaghe = slightly past peak)
Tszyu = slightly past peak (Hatton = peak)
Castillo = shot (Hatton = near enough peak)
Holyfield = slightly past peak (Lewis = peak)
Tyson = shot to bits (Lewis = past peak)

[JonOli]

Thats a fair question because its a trick thats been tried by TFFP when it suits his argument against Hatton. Hatton cheated against Zoo, JLC was shot....lets just rub all the best wins off a boxers record eh?


Do you think Calzaghe should be ranked so high above Lewis, GazOC, do you think he should be no4 - if not why not?

[mrplow182]

Jones Jr and Tyson were shot to shit. It's very, very unfair to compare Tszyu with those two.


OK

I'll group Hopkins/Tszyu/Holyfield as the best wins against the bigger names

Who then has the better group of victories below that very elite level??

[HOF]

That isn't such a bad list by Golden Boy Magazine's standards to be fair

[Beeston Brawler]

I personally don't think Calzaghe can lick Lewis's boots, not can Hatton.

Look at their records, and the records of the fighters they faced - especially what they did subsequently.

The Hopkins Pavlik thing will crop up, but did Calzaghe really beat Hopkins?

[mrplow182]

Hopkins = past peak (Calzaghe = prime, near enough)
Jones = shot to bits (Calzaghe = slightly past peak)
Tszyu = slightly past peak (Hatton = peak)
Castillo = shot (Hatton = near enough peak)
Holyfield = slightly past peak (Lewis = peak)
Tyson = shot to bits (Lewis = past peak)


So then it goes down to Golota, Malignaggi and Kessler

Or even Bruno, Tackie , Lacy

Gets tricky to rank them

[onourway]

OK

I'll group Hopkins/Tszyu/Holyfield as the best wins against the bigger names

Who then has the better group of victories below that very elite level??

Lewis does. By a country mile.

[mrplow182]

I personally don't think Calzaghe can lick Lewis's boots, not can Hatton.

Look at their records, and the records of the fighters they faced - especially what they did subsequently.

The Hopkins Pavlik thing will crop up, but did Calzaghe really beat Hopkins?

You could say did Hatton beat Urango(I meant Collazo, I'm a twat I know......) when he stepped up in weight....that was a ridiculously risky fight to take, also did Lennox deserve to beat Ray Mercer???

[mrplow182]

Lewis does. By a country mile.


I agree I'm just posing the question its quite interesting ranking levels of opponents faced as depth is always important in a CV

[Beeston Brawler]

So then it goes down to Golota, Malignaggi and Kessler

Or even Bruno, Tackie , Lacy

Gets tricky to rank them

I think Malignaggi is about #4/5 on Hatton's win list, I don't rate him really.

Tackie would be similar, #4/5.

Bruno would be about #7/8 on Lewis's list, Golota perhaps slightly higher, but either of his wins over Holyfield or Ruddock, Rahman II, Grant etc........ would go above that.

Kessler is clearly Joe's 2nd best win, if you count Hopkins.

[Beatboxer]

It still doesn't even make sense, when you take away those wins you take away being an undisputed champion which is a career achievement and counts for more than just a win.

It's a completely pointless thing to start taking wins away to make points. Perhaps you can take away a few and I'll add a few make believe wins.

Take the resumes as they are. It's far more logical and sane. Any depth or lack of it will be self evident when you look at the real world resume, not the JonOli "I wish the resume looked like this" resume.

Bout sums that nonsense he came away with up.

Very poor list, though Wilde being top with Fitzsimmons exempted is fair enough.

Lewis is wayyyyy too low.

Just horrible all round really.

[mrplow182]

I think Malignaggi is about #4/5 on Hatton's win list, I don't rate him really.

Tackie would be similar, #4/5.

Bruno would be about #7/8 on Lewis's list, Golota perhaps slightly higher, but either of his wins over Holyfield or Ruddock, Rahman II, Grant etc........ would go above that.

Kessler is clearly Joe's 2nd best win, if you count Hopkins.

How do you rank the Hitmans wins then???

I liked his Magee and Thaxton victories but were they ever world class??

By the way I meant Collazo earlier......my apologies

[onourway]

Tua>>>Lacy
Vitali>=Kessler
Tyson>>>>Roy Jones JR
Holyfield>>>Hopkins

They're Calzaghe's 4 best wins. Lewis has 4 surprisingly very similar wins in terms of style/status, but all better imo.

Lewis then has Mason, Briggs, Golota, Rahman, McCall, Grant, Mercer, Morrison, Bruno, Ruddock...........and Calzaghe doesn't have much.

[mrplow182]

Bout sums that nonsense he came away with up.

Very poor list, though Wilde being top with Fitzsimmons exempted is fair enough.

Lewis is wayyyyy too low.

Just horrible all round really.

It is a flimsy list......it also practically contradicts itself with Calzaghe at 4 not having meaningful fights and having lennox so low despite being our greatest heavyweight ever.....

surely by their logic they must know its all over the shop

[Beeston Brawler]

How do you rank the Hitmans wins then???

I liked his Magee and Thaxton victories but were they ever world class??

By the way I meant Collazo earlier......my apologies

Hatton's wins............

Tszyu - obviously
Castillo - the manner of it
Phillips
Collazo
Tackie
Malignaggi
Lazcano
Urango - the true worth will be revealed
Oliveira
Rios
Maussa
Stewart
Magee
Thaxton
Hutchinson

et al!

[mrplow182]

Tua>>>Lacy
Vitali>=Kessler
Tyson>>>>Roy Jones JR
Holyfield>>>Hopkins

They're Calzaghe's 4 best wins. Lewis has 4 surprisingly very similar wins in terms of style/status, but all better imo.

Lewis then has Mason, Briggs, Golota, Rahman, McCall, Grant, Mercer, Morrison, Bruno, Ruddock...........and Calzaghe doesn't have much.

I would have to say Lennox handled Vitali much worse than Calzaghe handled Kessler.....and I couldnt seperate the difference between RJJ and Tyson....both of who were punching bags by the time of the fight

The rest I agree with though in terms of Lewis and his depth....it went under appreciated at the time

[Beeston Brawler]

I think Tyson probably ranks above Jones

They were both punch bags, but at leasy Tyson tried to fight back against a guy who was a stylistic nightmare (even in their respective primes). Roy was content to go the distance with Joe.

Don't forget Lennox was more past peak than Joe was.

[mrplow182]

Hatton's wins............

Tszyu - obviously
Castillo - the manner of it
Phillips
Collazo
Tackie
Malignaggi
Lazcano
Urango - the true worth will be revealed
Oliveira
Rios
Maussa
Stewart
Magee
Thaxton
Hutchinson

et al!

I actually rate the Lazcano win in his top 5....took a lot for Hatton to win that fight in terms of the illness, the heavy defeat beforehand as well as the fact that Lazcano was a more than decent opponent

Top 6 for Hatton......in my opinion

Tszyu
Collazo
Malignaggi
Castillo
Lazcano
Tackie

The others in terms of Phillips and Oliveira were a little too shop worn, although are good names to have on his record,and yep, that Castillo body shot was one of the best he's ever thrown if not the best

[mrplow182]

I think Tyson probably ranks above Jones

They were both punch bags, but at leasy Tyson tried to fight back against a guy who was a stylistic nightmare (even in their respective primes). Roy was content to go the distance with Joe.

Don't forget Lennox was more past peak than Joe was.

Thats true wasnt he 37 at the time of that fight??

I like all 3 guys and when you dissect their records they are actually impressive....not bad at all

[Beeston Brawler]

Castillo may be a little high, but Phillips has to go in the top 5, given that he nearly KO'd Ricky in the 4th.

Paulie is way overrated, as a Hatton fan I was jumping up and down when the fight was made, because Malignaggi was made for him. A one-dimensional jab artist with no power and hittable = meat and drink for Ricky.

[TFFP]

I wouldn't say Tua is that much better than Lacy. He is a limited fighter too. They are essentially the same type of fighter. Tua has a few better wins.

Why is Vitali better than Kessler? Vitali's resume was horrible before he beat Sam Peter. Samuel...Peter. A terrible TKO loss to Byrd against his name too, whatever the circumstances. They are even at worst.

Tyson was that much better than Jones? He was really in much better condition then when Danny Williams and fucking McBride beat him just a couple of years later? Miles miles past peak.

Holyfield was noway near that far ahead of this current Hopkins either. He was widely considered past prime, except his form would then be to struggle with John Ruiz and get KO'd by a fat Toney. Whereas Hopkins beat Pavlik.

Basically all of them were widely inaccurate and overstated.

[mrplow182]

Castillo may be a little high, but Phillips has to go in the top 5, given that he nearly KO'd Ricky in the 4th.

Paulie is way overrated, as a Hatton fan I was jumping up and down when the fight was made, because Malignaggi was made for him. A one-dimensional jab artist with no power and hittable = meat and drink for Ricky.

I do laugh when people say he has no punch resistance anymore because lazcano wobbled him and Mayweather stopped him.......Lazcano fought a mentally all over the place Hatton and did catch him but not to the extent where he was out of it like some people like to say....and as for the mayweather KO.....Mayweather is a cracking world class fighter and caught Hatton cos ricky was still going for it pushing forward like we know he thrives on

That said....my point was kinda gonna be that Phillips did nearly stop ricky, tszyu caught him with some massive shots and Magge dropped him.....yet people were very quick to write him off everytime he's wobbled since the US fights

[mrplow182]

I wouldn't say Tua is that much better than Lacy. He is a limited fighter too. They are essentially the same type of fighter. Tua has a few better wins.

Why is Vitali better than Kessler? Vitali's resume was horrible before he beat Sam Peter. Samuel...Peter. A terrible TKO loss to Byrd against his name too, whatever the circumstances. They are even at worst.

Tyson was that much better than Jones? He was really in much better condition then when Danny Williams and fucking McBride beat him just a couple of years later? Miles miles past peak.

Holyfield was noway near that far ahead of this current Hopkins either. He was widely considered past prime, except his form would then be to struggle with John Ruiz and get KO'd by a fat Toney. Whereas Hopkins beat Pavlik.

Basically all of them were widely inaccurate and overstated.

That means you have to dig even deeper into the 3 of their records to rank them???? Woodhall/Thaxton/Bruno kinda tier???

Or does everyone instincively have a favourite fighter??

[Beatboxer]

I think Tyson probably ranks above Jones

They were both punch bags, but at leasy Tyson tried to fight back against a guy who was a stylistic nightmare (even in their respective primes). Roy was content to go the distance with Joe.

Don't forget Lennox was more past peak than Joe was.

And how did you work that out? Simply because he was stupid enough not to train for Rahman (too busy on the set of Ocean 11) and thus got sparked?

If anything Calzaghe has shown a more pronounced physical decline that Lewis had up until that point....Lewis looked as good as he ever did going into Tyson, Rahman aberration aside...which he of course atoned for big time in the rematch where he actually trained properly.

And the way you attacked Joes wins over Hopkins and Jones....you could rather easily say the same for Holyfield and Tyson for Lewis, who wasn't fortunate in that the best heavies of his day never took him on in their primes...Bowe avoiding him blatantly, Tyson imprisoned(and later step aside money) and Holy with his erratic form in the mid 90s.

The resume can be, and has been attacked many, many times. I could put forward a convincing case to tear him apart rather easily. Not that I would as I regard him as a top 10 all time HW, but it would certainly be possible.

[Beeston Brawler]

I think you make a good point - Hatton has never been good at all defensively, even guys at journeyman level have had him in trouble either through carelessness or cuts..........

[TFFP]

That means you have to dig even deeper into the 3 of their records to rank them???? Woodhall/Thaxton/Bruno kinda tier???

Or does everyone instincively have a favourite fighter??
I'm not really arguing most of those wins are better. Except Vitali, considering the circumstances. Kessler is a better win. The number of ">" they seemed to get were well over the top with no real basis in reality. I mean is there really much difference between that Tyson and Jones? I don't see it at all. If anything Tyson's best years were well past in comparison to RJJ.

Lewis has a much better depth of win beyond that. His B grade of competition is outstanding.

Of course he's way ahead of Calzaghe overall.

[JonOli]

That means you have to dig even deeper into the 3 of their records?


You're not allowed to do that!!

[Beatboxer]

I wouldn't say Tua is that much better than Lacy. He is a limited fighter too. They are essentially the same type of fighter. Tua has a few better wins.

Why is Vitali better than Kessler? Vitali's resume was horrible before he beat Sam Peter. Samuel...Peter. A terrible TKO loss to Byrd against his name too, whatever the circumstances. They are even at worst.

Tyson was that much better than Jones? He was really in much better condition then when Danny Williams and fucking McBride beat him just a couple of years later? Miles miles past peak.

Holyfield was noway near that far ahead of this current Hopkins either. He was widely considered past prime, except his form would then be to struggle with John Ruiz and get KO'd by a fat Toney. Whereas Hopkins beat Pavlik.

Basically all of them were widely inaccurate and overstated.

Yep, the way people go on about Lewis as some sort of untouchable British Demi-God amuses me: I remember people would say that he couldn't rank among the panehon of greats simply because he has been sparked twice by two average-good fighters....

People seem to gloss over that. I can only imagine what they would say if the same thing had happened to Calzaghe, even if he did avenge the losses ala Lewis.

Again, I rate Lewis higly but lets not pretend his resume can't be picked at.

[onourway]

I wouldn't say Tua is that much better than Lacy. He is a limited fighter too. They are essentially the same type of fighter. Tua has a few better wins.

Why is Vitali better than Kessler? Vitali's resume was horrible before he beat Sam Peter. Samuel...Peter. A terrible TKO loss to Byrd against his name too, whatever the circumstances. They are even at worst.

Tyson was that much better than Jones? He was really in much better condition then when Danny Williams and fucking McBride beat him just a couple of years later? Miles miles past peak.

Holyfield was noway near that far ahead of this current Hopkins either. He was widely considered past prime, except his form would then be to struggle with John Ruiz and get KO'd by a fat Toney. Whereas Hopkins beat Pavlik.

Basically all of them were widely inaccurate and overstated.

Lacy's a horrible fighter. Tua has better wins and genuine KO power. I don't think any Tua opponent ever said 'he can't punch shit' like Joe did about Lacy after 2 rounds.

Vitali and Kessler have similar resumes in that neither shines and they both lost to the best they fought. I prefer Lewis's win, because of the stage he was at in his career and the fact that Vitali has dominated/Ko'd every fighter he's fought.

Jones is awful now, everything that made him great has gone. At least Tyson still had a punchers chance and went for it, Jones couldn't even get punches off.

Lewis beat Holyfield comfortably. Calzaghe barely landed a clean punch on Hopkins.

[Beeston Brawler]

And how did you work that out? Simply because he was stupid enough not to train for Rahman (too busy on the set of Ocean 11) and thus got sparked?

If anything Calzaghe has shown a more pronounced physical decline that Lewis had up until that point....Lewis looked as good as he ever did going into Tyson, Rahman aberration aside...which he of course atoned for big time in the rematch where he actually trained properly.

And the way you attacked Joes wins over Hopkins and Jones....you could rather easily say the same for Holyfield and Tyson for Lewis, who wasn't fortunate in that the best heavies of his day never took him on in their primes...Bowe avoiding him blatantly, Tyson imprisoned(and later step aside money) and Holy with his erratic form in the mid 90s.

The resume can be, and has been attacked many, many times. I could put forward a convincing case to tear him apart rather easily. Not that I would as I regard him as a top 10 all time HW, but it would certainly be possible.

Good post.

I wouldn't argue that Calzaghe wasn't past his physical prime, I would be stupid to do so.... but mentally he was at the top of his game.

I am not saying that Lewis wasn't, but I am sure you understand my PoV.

I don't think that Calzaghe beat Hopkins, in truth, but anyway, the judges gave him it so will have to give him credit for it.

So...........

Does Lewis >>>> Calzaghe in your view, or vice-versa?

[mrplow182]

I'm not really arguing most of those wins are better. Except Vitali, considering the circumstances. Kessler is a better win. The number of ">" they seemed to get were well over the top with no real basis in reality. I mean is there really much difference between that Tyson and Jones? I don't see it at all. If anything Tyson's best years were well past in comparison to RJJ.

Lewis has a much better depth of win beyond that. His B grade of competition is outstanding.

Of course he's way ahead of Calzaghe overall.

I agree with the Kessler/Vitali point....not cos I think Kessler is that much better than Klitschko, but because the manner of victory is much more comprehensive for Calzaghe

I actually think Joe Calzaghes 2nd tier wins are very good and are what just puts him above Hatton in my opinion

[mrplow182]

Good post.

I wouldn't argue that Calzaghe wasn't past his physical prime, I would be stupid to do so.... but mentally he was at the top of his game.

I am not saying that Lewis wasn't, but I am sure you understand my PoV.

I don't think that Calzaghe beat Hopkins, in truth, but anyway, the judges gave him it so will have to give him credit for it.

So...........

Does Lewis >>>> Calzaghe in your view, or vice-versa?

How about this.....does Hatton have the best/more credible biggest win due to Tszyu being younger than Hopkins and Tyson or do you say Hatton lost to his best opponent in Mayweather and therefore is the lesser of the 3 when it comes to rankings??

That said....have Lewis or Calzaghe fought anyone as good and as in their prime as Mayweather?? Just to confuse things

[Beeston Brawler]

Pffffffffffft................................

Hatton faced a better opponent, P4P or H2H than either Lewis or Calzaghe, but other than five competitive rounds, was outclassed - not sparked by a lucky punch.

I think Hatton is below Lewis and Calzaghe, but not as much as people feel. Unless Hatton goes on a long time, he won't rack up enough to beat Lewis, but could go infront of Calzaghe.

IMO anyway.

[Beatboxer]

Good post.

I wouldn't argue that Calzaghe wasn't past his physical prime, I would be stupid to do so.... but mentally he was at the top of his game.

I am not saying that Lewis wasn't, but I am sure you understand my PoV.

I don't think that Calzaghe beat Hopkins, in truth, but anyway, the judges gave him it so will have to give him credit for it.

So...........

Does Lewis >>>> Calzaghe in your view, or vice-versa?

Yes, I understand your view point and yes, I do think Lewis edges it. I'm too tired to get in to much depth BB but basically I think Lennox beat all that he could available to him and did it very convincingly. I think he does lack in marquee wins: on the face of it, you would have to say a still capable Holyfield and Klitschko are the best. But he has a win over a whole host of belt holders and top contenders like Mercer, Golota, Rahman, Tua, Ruddock, Morrison, Briggs, McCall etc etc. He also avenged both losses.

The manner of his victories were all very convincing too, and I recognise that he could only beat what was put in front of him.

However, I could argue and strongly, that JC is better. However, I don't quite believe that as of now although I feel things could become very interesting if JC fights and beats a very good young Champion like Dawson...which would represent another marquee wins for Calzaghe.

However for now Lewis has the edge. He was a great fighter, someone who I have began to apprciate more now that he's been gone for a while.

[onourway]

Pffffffffffft................................

Hatton faced a better opponent, P4P or H2H than either Lewis or Calzaghe, but other than five competitive rounds, was outclassed - not sparked by a lucky punch.

I think Hatton is below Lewis and Calzaghe, but not as much as people feel. Unless Hatton goes on a long time, he won't rack up enough to beat Lewis, but could go infront of Calzaghe.

IMO anyway.

If Hatton beats Pac, he has a great shout of being ahead of Calzaghe imo.

IF he beats Pac and Marquez, he's ahead of him, no question.

[mrplow182]

If Hatton beats Pac, he has a great shout of being ahead of Calzaghe imo.

IF he beats Pac and Marquez, he's ahead of him, no question.

No doubt really that if Hatton beats Manny in a competetive fight then he would have to be ranked at least on a par with Calzaghe...but then the detractors would say he's just a blown up flyweight etc etc you know the drill

Does Calzaghe's undefeated career carry more or less weight than it should when it comes to ranking him?

[JonOli]

I actually think Joe Calzaghes 2nd tier wins are very good and are what just puts him above Hatton in my opinion


If you move to the second tier...

Calzaghes 2nd tier and the rest of his resume aside from an past best Hopkins and Kessler is nothing special and no better then a lot of fighters ie Ottke, Erdie, DariosW, Dutchboysam etc etc. That is something I said 10 pages ago... trying to make the point that he should not be ranked at no4 and so far ahead of Lewis.

[Beeston Brawler]

Lennox edges it for me because there were no 'pretenders' in the HW division whilst he was in charge.

I would have said Joe was the man pretty much from '97 onwards, but there were plenty. Too many 'former' champs on his resume than 'current' ones.

[mrplow182]

If you move to the second tier...

Calzaghes 2nd tier and the rest of his resume aside from the Hopkins and Kessler is nothing special and no better then a lot of fighters ie Ottke, Erdie, DariosW, Dutchboysam. That is something I said 10 pages... trying to make the point that he should not be ranked at no4 and so far ahead of Lewis.


I think most people agree Lewis should be above Calzaghe but in terms of British rankings, not European rankings where Ottke/Dariusz M etc would be factored in.....Calzaghe's 2nd tier in terms of beating former world champions just edges him above Hatton

[mrplow182]

Lennox edges it for me because there were no 'pretenders' in the HW division whilst he was in charge.

I would have said Joe was the man pretty much from '97 onwards, but there were plenty. Too many 'former' champs on his resume than 'current' ones.

He did hold every belt worth anything in the SMW division....but it took a LONG time to do so

Lennox was undisputed champ and avenged every defeat.....

Hatton was a machine and a 2 weight champ before facing arguably the best fighter since RJJ

So do accomplishments rank above names when ranking guys as well???

[Beatboxer]

Lennox edges it for me because there were no 'pretenders' in the HW division whilst he was in charge.

I would have said Joe was the man pretty much from '97 onwards, but there were plenty. Too many 'former' champs on his resume than 'current' ones.

It wasn't his fault that the other man in the division blatantly didn't want to fight him and practically held that IBF Title hostage in Germany.

WBC changed hands about 18 times during JC's WBO reign: you could hardly draw breath before there was a new champ!

Lewis also suffered in this regard, which I do factor in by the way when I have these discussion, I have sympathy for their plight and understand they fought who the could. Think how much better Lewis would look if say hypothetically...

1. He fights and beats a Prime Riddick Bowe.
2. He then meets Holyfield far earlier equipped with his status as being the man in the division.
3. A returning Tyson has to go through Lennox to be Champion and thus has to face him.

However, this is assuming that he wins the first two bouts....McCall showed how vulenrable a pre-Steward Lewis could be so he might never have got that far....and could've lost to those guys when they were nearer their primes, boosting any arguments that a prime Holyfield would've beaten him etc. The McCall loss was probably a blessing in disguise.

Anyway, tangent. Point is Lewis faced the best fighters available to him and dealt with them comfortably for the most part. Calzaghe has not faced as many good fighters as Lewis did overall and thats what tips it for me. The marquee victories of Lewis are lacking, but that is definetly not his fault, and Klit and Holy are not at all bad anyway.

[JonOli]

I think most people agree Lewis should be above Calzaghe but in terms of British rankings, not European rankings where Ottke/Dariusz M etc would be factored in.....Calzaghe's 2nd tier in terms of beating former world champions just edges him above Hatton


I agree it puts him above Hatton. I wouldn't have Hatton above Calzaghe.

I was just trying to highlight about how ordinary the rest of Calzaghes resume is. I'm not saying it is rubbish, but in the context of absolute boxing legends I don't think it is anything out the ordinary and worthy of the credit it is being given in this list (ie to place him so far ahead of Lewis, who has a deep resume, and at no4 - the authur is placing a huge amount on the 0, imo).

[mrplow182]

It wasn't his fault that the other man in the division blatantly didn't want to fight him and practically held that IBF Title hostage in Germany.

WBC changed hands about 18 times during JC's WBO reign: you could hardly draw breath before there was a new champ!

Lewis also suffered in this regard, which I do factor in by the way when I have these discussion, I have sympathy for their plight and understand they fought who the could. Think how much better Lewis would look if say hypothetically...

1. He fights and beats a Prime Riddick Bowe.
2. He then meets Holyfield far earlier equipped with his status as being the man in the division.
3. A returning Tyson has to go through Lennox to be Champion and thus has to face him.

However, this is assuming that he wins the first two bouts....McCall showed how vulenrable a pre-Steward Lewis could be so he might never have got that far....and could've lost to those guys when they were nearer their primes, boosting any arguments that a prime Holyfield would've beaten him etc. The McCall loss was probably a blessing in disguise.

Anyway, tangent. Point is Lewis faced the best fighters available to him and dealt with them comfortably for the most part. Calzaghe has not faced as many good fighters as Lewis did overall and thats what tips it for me. The marquee victories of Lewis are lacking, but that is definetly not his fault, and Klit and Holy are not at all bad anyway.

I'm a big Calzaghe fan and would tend not to disagree with this post...but if the CVs are that close/that open to scrutiny does it not just come down to who was the better skilled boxer??

That means you have the left jab and huge right of Lewis, the speed and combinations of Calzaghe and the force and body shots of Hatton

even with literally everything factored in it's still gonna be down to personal opinion

[mrplow182]

I agree it puts him above Hatton. I wouldn't have Hatton above Calzaghe.

I was just trying to highlight about how ordinary the rest of Calzaghes resume is. I'm not saying it is rubbish, but in the context of absolute boxing legends I don't think it is anything out the ordinary and worthy of the credit it is being given in this list (ie to place him so far ahead of Lewis, who has a deep resume, and at no4 - the authur is placing a huge amount on the 0, imo).

I agree in terms of Lewis then Calzaghe then Hatton

But as beatboxer said Lewis' CV can be picked at, theres no Bowe, Ruiz, Tyson was a shot fighter, he lost to guys who should have beaten in McCall and Rahman, struggled with Vitali and Ruddock

That said I like Lennox's record a lot and would have him 2 or 3 on the British ATG list

He was a very cautious boxer though.....the opposite of Hatton and Calzaghe

[Beatboxer]

I'm a big Calzaghe fan and would tend not to disagree with this post...but if the CVs are that close/that open to scrutiny does it not just come down to who was the better skilled boxer??

That means you have the left jab and huge right of Lewis, the speed and combinations of Calzaghe and the force and body shots of Hatton

even with literally everything factored in it's still gonna be down to personal opinion

Yea...one could argue that I suppose and I am second guessing myself a bit...it's about time I broke down the record of Lennox Lewis in depth to decide how great he truely is.

What I will say is regarding your train of thought, I think Calzaghe is more beatable at the hands of great MW's and LHW's than Lewis is by ATG HWs....though it could be argued that the depth of talent, particularly at those lower weights make that inevitable.

Anyways I'm off lads, fun debate.

[JonOli]

If you're placing a lot of emphasis on skills you can knock Buchanan into to top 5 easily.

[mrplow182]

If you're placing a lot of emphasis on skills you can knock Buchanan into to top 5 easily.

I would anyway.......cracking boxer

[HOF]

One of the things I find interesting about this thread is the comments regarding Lennox Lewis, being a recent fighter who is now a few years retired. I loved Lennox as a fighter and think he's a top guy but it seems that time does in fact do a fighter's legacy a lot of good. The feeling that that Lennox fought high calibre, top quality fighters throughout his career is something that seems to have developed since he retired. And the Rahman and McCall lossess are big blemishes as can you honestly say either were top class elite fighters?!? It is also the case that many of the opponents who Lennox is now lionized for beating are of no greater standing than the those who are referred to as 'bums' on certain present fighters' resumes, whilst his biggest wins were against 'past their prime' legends that are now being seen in a slightly different light as time passes by since retirement. That bodes well for Calzage's legacy for instance. The Klitschko fight then threw up more questions than answers, but the good thing about time is that sportsmen seem to become greater the longer it is since we saw them last

[mrplow182]

One of things I find interesting about this thread is the comments regarding Lennox Lewis, being a recent fighter who is now a few years retired. I loved Lennox as a fighter and think he's a top guy but it seems that time does in fact do a fighter's legacy a lot of good. Statements that Lennox fought high calibre, top quality fighters throughout his whole career is something that seems to have developed since he retired. And the Rahman and McCall lossess are big blemishes as can you honestly say either were top class elite fighters?!? It is also the case that many of the opponents who Lennox is now lionized for beating are of no greater standing than the those who are referred to as 'bums' on certain present fighters' resumes, whilst his biggest wins were against 'past their prime' legends that are now being seen in a slightly different light as time passes by since retirement. That bodes well for Calzage's legacy for instance. The Klitschko fight then threw up more questions than answers, but the good thing about time is that sportsmen seem to become greater the longer it is since we saw them last

You have Calzaghe above Lewis in a British list of greats???

[HOF]

You have Calzaghe above Lewis in a British list of greats???

Yes, personally I think Calzaghe is a better all round fighter but I'm not going to argue the relative merits of each fighter's resume at this point. If Kessler goes downhill from here, for instance, then I feel that hits Calzaghe's legacy fairly badly it but if he becomes a potent force at 168-175 then the opposite is true. I think we have our pre-war and post war lists and Lennox and Calzaghe are probably the top 2 post war it's fair to say. The one thing I have against Lennox is that a top class fighter should not at the peak of his powers lose to what appears to be, and then is later confirmed to be, low class opposition. Whateverr you say about Calzaghe's level of opposition, he's never lost and been sparked out by any of them and Lennox has.

[Infern0]

Thoughts?


My first thought was how funny this joke was.

Lennox lewis lower than calslappy lmfao

[JonOli]

Whateverr you say about Calzaghe's level of opposition, he's never lost and been sparked out by any of them and Lennox has.


That is unfair, Lennox was a heavyweight and got knocked out. It happens in that weight class - one punch is all it takes. A human being caught by an 18+ stone man is a lot different from being hit by a 12 stone one, irrelevant of how much you weigh. There are dynamic differences between super middle and heavy weight. The qualities needed to perform in both differ greatly. It's not like Lennox was out boxed and lost on points - then there would be a case.

[HOF]

That is unfair Lennox is a heavyweight and got knocked out. It happens in that weight class - one punch is all it takes. A human being punched full on by being an 18+ stone man is a lot different from being a 12 stone one. There are great dynamics between super middle and heavy weight. The qualities needed to perform in both differ greatly.

I understand what you're saying but in weighing up a fighter's qualities then professionalism and chin come into play whether you're a heavyweight or a flyweight. I just don't see Rahman and McCall knocking out some of the truly great heavweights even if they landed flush. If you go through their resumes then the Lennox wins are anomalies for them

[JonOli]

Henry Cooper nearly had Ali out of there with just one punch.

[HOF]

Henry Cooper nearly had Ali out of there with just one punch.

And against a Bruno or quite possibly Lennox he may have finished them off in the next round. Whether a fighter is 'there' or not they go on instinct. Ali's instinct against Cooper was to get up and go to his corner unlike Lennox who was 'out' against Rahman and doing the wibble wobble after the McCall knockdown. Even if it hadn't been the end of the round Ali was still up to try and weather any further punishment. If it was a Lennox who Cooper had hit he may not have got up or then been finished off in the next round, but not someone with a class chin and recovery powers like Ali

[icemax]

The compilation of any ATG list for a sport with the longevity of boxing is extremely difficult, given the lack of extensive footage of the earlier fighters. I consider myself to be a student of the sport but would find it very difficult to compare the records and skillset of Jimmy Wilde to Ken Buchanan for instance. I tend to seperate my ATG listings into several era based groupings which makes it much easier to compare like with like: Pre Marquis of Queensbury, MoQ to Dempsey, Dempsey to Clay, Clay to Date.

Having said that it would have to be a very good argument indeed to convince me that a fighter with the silky Pepp like skills of Ken Buchanan or the technical aptitude and achievement of Lennox should not be in any British top 5 list. Calzaghe would be struggling to get into my top ten.

[Words]

John Conteh needs to be in the top 10, Lennox should be top 3, Calzaghe ranked way too high. Hamed and Hatton deserve more respect coz even though they got beat, they got beat by elite fighters, whereas Joe has never fought an elite fighter.

[kerrminator]

Fitz was born in Cornwall. He moved away as a kid. He learned his trade down under (both boxing and blacksmith lol)

[Olu G. Rotimi]

Very difficult not to have Lennox Lewis at number 1. Conteh is arguably the most gifted British fighter I think I have ever seen. Honeyghan should definitely be in the top 10 as should Naseem Hamed. The old timers who by the way I love are sometimes rated higher from a nostalgic perspective. Benn and Eubank are interesting omissions. McGuigan had a shot at being a great fighter but messed it up by losing to Stevie Cruz and never fighting Azumah Nelson. A gallant losing effort would have helped his case just look at what the names of Sugar Ray Robinson and Don Curry do respectively for Randolph Turpin and LloyD Honeyghan.

[jc]

There has been a lot of the usual hate aimed at Calzaghe and maybe thats fair enough, maybe he shouldnt be that high but he is certainly one of the greatest British fighters of all time and shouldefinately be put ahead of Ken Buchanan!

[icemax]

maybe he shouldnt be that high but he is certainly one of the greatest British fighters of all time and shouldefinately be put ahead of Ken Buchanan!

Sorry mate, but with this one comment you have lost any credibility with me, and probably with a large number of other posters :-( Calzaghe isn't fit to lace up Buchanans gloves for him

[GazOC]

Do you think Calzaghe should be ranked so high above Lewis, GazOC, do you think he should be no4 - if not why not?

Depending on what I rank for I have Fitz and Lewis switched between numbers 1 and 2 by quite some distance. I don't think Calzaghes record is as bad as some people try to make out but it doesn't compare to Lewis' or to Fitzs feat of winning the middle/ heavy and Lt heavy titles. I also don't rank Jimmy Wilde as highly as a lot of people, he had a great numbers and was often outweighed but didn't win too many titles at world level (this was at a time when travelling to these type of fights was a much bigger deal and less commonplace than it is today). Bucannon also gets a little more credit off a lot of poeple than I think he deserves.

I think i'd have:

1/2 Fitz/ Lewis
3/4 Calzaghe/ Wilde


Next level: (no order)

Honeyghan
Bucannan
Turpin
Conteh
Naz
Driscoll
Hatton

I'm sure I've miss a few of the old timers off though....

[TFFP]

Yeah you have. You've missed Ted 'Kid' Lewis which is a pretty bad omission. Freddie Welsh too, considering you have Driscoll and its more or less a toss up of whos greater. Benny Lynch.

Jackie 'Kid' Berg. His one win over Kid Chocolate is something special, considering you have resumes like Honeyghan's and Hatton's which are reliant on single wins.

[GazOC]

Gimme a break, I answered the original question and I've just got in from a Xmas piss up that started at 11:30 am. IMHO both Berg and Kid Lewis get slightly overrated because they fought a largish part of their careers in America (Lewis spent far too much time fighting Jack Britton). Niether Hattons or Honeys career is reliant on single wins, both were genuine, lineal world champions for a number of years, MAYBE you could make that charge against Turpin at world level...

[beatdown]

lewis is def no 1 all time....who else???

[JonOli]

Depending on what I rank for I have Fitz and Lewis switched between numbers 1 and 2 by quite some distance. I don't think Calzaghes record is as bad as some people try to make out but it doesn't compare to Lewis' or to Fitzs feat of winning the middle/ heavy and Lt heavy titles. I also don't rank Jimmy Wilde as highly as a lot of people, he had a great numbers and was often outweighed but didn't win too many titles at world level (this was at a time when travelling to these type of fights was a much bigger deal and less commonplace than it is today). Bucannon also gets a little more credit off a lot of poeple than I think he deserves.

I think i'd have:

1/2 Fitz/ Lewis
3/4 Calzaghe/ Wilde


Next level: (no order)

Honeyghan
Bucannan
Turpin
Conteh
Naz
Driscoll
Hatton

I'm sure I've miss a few of the old timers off though....


Fair enough, and thanks for answering. There are a few possible emissions as has been mentioned - but the bulk of familiar names appear to be there.

I like Buchanan and skill wise I'd put him above Joe, but of cause it's all about opinions.

I have Fitz, Lewis, Wilde, and Ted "Kid" Lewis in my top 4, with Buchanan and Calzaghe fighting it out for fith place. I do need to extend my knowledge about Wilde though...

I've just read that the first ever mouthpiece was used in 1915 in a bout between Ted "Kid" Lewis and Jack Britton. A piece of totally, and utterly pointless trivia for you there.:D

[heehoo]

No Bob Fitzsimmons? He may have fought outside of Britain, but he's still British.

[widdy]

id benn in there instead of naz,i think he acheived twice as much as naz

[El Cepillo]

delete

[hitman_hatton1]

hatton deserved at least an honourable mention.

he's had a better career than the likes of honeyghan and mcguigan.

and had more longevity. :bbb

[Beeston Brawler]

I think Hatton loses points from a lot of people for the endless, meaningless defences of a WBU 'title' - he also stagnated in a shockingly bad way from the Phillips/Tackie wins until he fought Tszyu.

His place will most likely be determined by what he achieves up until his retirement.

I am surprised Herol Graham never got a mention.

[hitman_hatton1]

There has been a lot of the usual hate aimed at Calzaghe and maybe thats fair enough, maybe he shouldnt be that high but he is certainly one of the greatest British fighters of all time and shouldefinately be put ahead of Ken Buchanan!

yeah deffo.

buchanan gets bummed over for fighting stateside in my opinion.

yeah respect to beating laguna away from home (twice).

some american contenders of the day as well.

but he was well beaten by a prime duran and lost another title shot.

calzaghe is much better. :thumbsup

[JonOli]

yeah deffo.

buchanan gets bummed over for fighting stateside in my opinion.

yeah respect to beating laguna away from home (twice).

some american contenders of the day as well.

but he was well beaten by a prime duran and lost another title shot.

calzaghe is much better. :thumbsup


Oh the shame of losing to Duran... who went on to beat Ray Leonard at 147... took Hagler to the wire at middle...

[Olu G. Rotimi]

hatton deserved at least an honourable mention.

he's had a better career than the likes of honeyghan and mcguigan.

and had more longevity. :bbb

Better than McGuigan certainly but not Honeyghan's. One of the highest compliments we can give Honeyghan and the fatboy(I say this with genuine affection for Hatton) is that they were and are linear champions fought, beat and lost to the best of their era. I will not judge Hatton yet as he is not done yet. The next few years will determine his ultimate standing. For me at the moment Lloyd ranks higher for destroying Don Curry at his peak. PBF outclassed Ricky and Tyzu was past his best which Hatton himself agrees with.

[El Cepillo]

Hello everyone, I wrote an article for the main page about Calzaghe and Hamed's legacies, there is a topic in the general forum about it here: [Only registered and activated users can see links]

I would really appreciate if you could comment/judge on the article, and I would be interested to hear all the opinions of the Brit Forum crowd as well, with regards to how Hamed and Calzaghe's legacies compare/don't compare etc.

Cheers :good

[icemax]

Oh the shame of losing to Duran... who went on to beat Ray Leanard at 147... took Hagler to the wire at middle...

:yep Duran, waste of space

In my mind either of Kens victories over Laguna (Puerto Rico & MSG) are way above anything that JC has ever dreamed of achieving

[hitman_hatton1]

Better than McGuigan certainly but not Honeyghan's. One of the highest compliments we can give Honeyghan and the fatboy(I say this with genuine affection for Hatton) is that they were and are linear champions fought, beat and lost to the best of their era. I will not judge Hatton yet as he is not done yet. The next few years will determine his ultimate standing. For me at the moment Lloyd ranks higher for destroying Don Curry at his peak. PBF outclassed Ricky and Tyzu was past his best which Hatton himself agrees with.

honeyghan lost to vaca.

which is comparable to hatton losing to someone like maussa tbh. :patsch

and got completely owned by starling and breland.

as good as those guys were, they weren't top notchers like mayweather.

hatton's already had a better career. :deal

[hitman_hatton1]

Oh the shame of losing to Duran... who went on to beat Ray Leanard at 147... took Hagler to the wire at middle...

:patsch

[icemax]

hatton's already had a better career. :deal

Maybe :think But Hatton would have had to have beaten Mayweather to reach the performance heights that Honeyghan did over Curry...in fact Honeyghans victory was much more of a shock than a Hatton win over Mayweather would have been.

[GazOC]

I think (so far) Honeys best win is a lot better than Hattons best win but the rest of their careers are VERY comparable.

[Beeston Brawler]

I can see it now - Hatton fanboys saying that Curry was severely weight drained....

Honeyghan fanboys saying that Tszyu was old and shot....

Apparently there isn't a great deal of love lost between the pair, for some reason. Then again, a typical northern male such as Hatton wouldn't take anyone who dresses like Lloyd does seriously.

[GazOC]

I can see it now - Hatton fanboys saying that Curry was severely weight drained....

Honeyghan fanboys saying that Tszyu was old and shot....
.

:lol:yep, thats probably how it will pan out but I think to go over to America and beat even a weight drained Curry is a far bigger achievement than beating an ageing Zoo fighting "at home" (which was still no mean feat).

[Beeston Brawler]

Not sure, was a bit before my time.....

Having read up on the Curry thing though it is something I can decipher.

Hatton will probably get out at the right time though with his few brain cells intact, Honeyghan went on too long.

Surely that counts for something in the grand scheme of things?

In other sports I just look at someone like David Seaman, who was the best keeper in the world (pretty much) for quite a while, but will be best remembered for costing us the QF in WC2002, and letting in a corner against some mumbo jumbo team in the 2004 qualifiers.

Compare that to Shane Warne, Glenn McGrath etc - enough said.

[GazOC]

Along with Hagler, Curry was the standout P4P fighter, people were seriously saying that he might have been better than SRL and that he should skip 154 and go straight to 160 and fight Hagler. Its hard to overstate how highly he was regarded at the time, for a couple of years he was awesome. He was known to be big at the weight but didn't seem to have any major weight making problems before Honeyghan.

[jc]

yeah deffo.

buchanan gets bummed over for fighting stateside in my opinion.

yeah respect to beating laguna away from home (twice).

some american contenders of the day as well.

but he was well beaten by a prime duran and lost another title shot.

calzaghe is much better. :thumbsup

He gets too much mileage out of losing to Duran. Calzaghe is the better boxer with the better record.

[widdy]

no metion of benn in there but naz,come on goldenhoya,you been a bit cheeky by putting delete next to my post,:nut,
what did naz do to be there apart from beating past it fighters,fuck me he beat robinson,prob the weakest feather champ ever,then beat tom boom boom jonston,who then went on to get beat off the great charlie shepard,:patsch,fought kelly,who he beat after both were near to getting twated by each other,then got twated off MAB,who was the only fighter who was more or less in his prime:happy
who has benn beat,nobodys eh:good

[Beeston Brawler]

Your grammar is exceptional.

[ron u.k.]

i don't think the lists outrageous,of course it can be picked apart but really it's pretty reasonable.i'd always find a place for conteh in any british top ten,and also there's a criminally forgotten bull of a lightweight who preceded buchanan called dave charnley.

[widdy]

soory beeston,i 4got i was writeing a peice for my A levals,4give me teach,i wont mek same mistake again,and again and again

[surreal deal]

Calzaghe has done nothing to ******t a top 20 spot. So he beat Kessler...so what. He defends a shit belt and beats some old guys. So what.


Len Harvey, Bruno, Minter and a stack others deserve more mention than him.
:bloodYou Rate Minter and BRUNO(!!??)above Calzaghe?

[icemax]

Calzaghe is the better boxer with the better record.

:huh:-(

The man headlined at MSG on 7 consecutive occasions, a record, FFS. Calzaghe only just remembered where his passport was hidden.

[El Cepillo]

I sent Michael Rosenthal who complied this list, an article([Only registered and activated users can see links])
that I wrote in response, he was nice enough to email me back. He mentioned the he actually thinks he put Calzaghe too high, and would rank him at #6 instead. Hamed makes the top 15.

[jc]

:huh:-(

The man headlined at MSG on 7 consecutive occasions, a record, FFS. Calzaghe only just remembered where his passport was hidden.

Correct he was very 'popular'...

[Olu G. Rotimi]

honeyghan lost to vaca.

which is comparable to hatton losing to someone like maussa tbh. :patsch

and got completely owned by starling and breland.

as good as those guys were, they weren't top notchers like mayweather.

hatton's already had a better career. :deal

Honeyghan should never have lost to Vaca but lets us remember the bout was stopped because Vaca had cuts, Honeyghan deducted points and the fight given to Vaca. In the rematch Honeyghan dealt with him properly. and destroyed him. Don Curry was rated as high as PBF when Honeyghan destroyed him. If anything he was viewed as an unbeatable fighter who could outbox and outfight anyone on theinside and outside with devastating 1 punch power. An excellent Starling fighting a career best performance owned him no doubt about with Honeyghan fighting totally wrong tactics on the night.. Discount the Breland fight he was already ruined at this level. Honeyghan at his peak beat the undefeated Maurice Blocker who would take the WBC title of Breland and give his best friend Simon Brown a great fight in the unification bout.

Hatton is very popular and deservedly so. Put it this way Hatton is someone I care to to watch at ringside, stay up late etc compared to Calzaghe who has the better legacy. We need to see the final years of Hatton's career to make the final judgement but for my money losing to Mayweather actually enhances him because he took on the best of his era which you cannot say about a lot of fighters.

[Olu G. Rotimi]

I can see it now - Hatton fanboys saying that Curry was severely weight drained....

Honeyghan fanboys saying that Tszyu was old and shot....

Apparently there isn't a great deal of love lost between the pair, for some reason. Then again, a typical northern male such as Hatton wouldn't take anyone who dresses like Lloyd does seriously.

I don't know where you get this from as Lloyd loves Hatton. He was very impressed with his performance against Tyzu. He also wanted Hatton to well against PBF but thought PBF would win because of Hatton's lack of defense and head movement. He felt Hatton should use controlled aggression with lateral movement against PBF like he did against Curry but rightly pointed out that this were not the tactics of Billy Graham. Also Hatton has a chronic weakness which Uncle Roger Mayweather saw and PBF exploited mercilessly.

[WelshDevilRob]

Lennox Lewis was the best for me, he did it all. He was an outright winner of the Lonsdale belt and Champion of both Europe and the Commonwealth. He was a 3 time Heavyweight Champion of the World and also Undisputed and linear Heavyweight Champion.

He beat everyman he ever faced professionally. He lost twice but avenged both those loses, which is something not all British Greats can claim. He was in a Heavyweight division and era that IMO was the 2nd strongest in Heavyweight History.
He was avoided but relentlessly pursued opponents to get them in the ring and his standard of opposition is far higher than that of any other British fighter.
He fought often in America and was successful something that not many British boxers can claim. He retired as Champion of the World.

He had Longevity and strong competition.