Max Baer - Primo Carnera

[Maxmomer]

I watched this for the first time on ESPN classic. It wasn't as one sided as I thought it would have been. Going into the 11th I had it pretty close in terms of rounds, Carnera boxed pretty effectively and Max Baer flailed his arms about like a lunatic to good effect. It was a fairly entertaining and competitive fight for the most part. Some more thoughts...

Primo Carnera was an astonishing physical specimen. 263 pounds with hardly any fat on him, not many heavyweights even these days are ripped at 260+

Max Baer had horrible punching technique, he swung the most telegraphed haymakers possible, at times he was practically windmilling his arms. But his power was awesome, and he had good hand-speed, too.

Primo Carnera had a lot of heart.

Max Baer was fucking crazy. Fucking crazy.

[OLD FOGEY]

I watched this for the first time on ESPN classic. It wasn't as once sided as I thought it would have been. Going into the 11th I had it pretty close in terms of rounds, Carnera boxed pretty effectively and Max Baer flailed his arms about like a lunatic to good effect. It was a fairly entertaining and competative for the most part. Some more thoughts...

Primo Carnera was an astonishing physical specimen. 263 pounds with hardly any fat on him, not many heavyweights even these days are ripped at 260+

Max Baer had horrible punching technique, he swung the most telegraphed haymakers possible, at times he was practically windmilling his arms. But his power was awesome, and he had good hand-speed, too.

Primo Carnera had a lot of heart.

Max Baer was fucking crazy. Fucking crazy.

"going into the 11th I had it pretty close in terms of rounds"

Carnera supposedly suffered a broken ankle when Baer fell on him in the first round. He was limping noticably. If this is true, his performance was not nearly as bad as his critics imply, with the knockdowns partially due to the injury. On the other hand, as you pointed out, he could be reached with crude haymakers and for such a big and muscular man, he did not seem to have that much of a punch.

I do think that Carnera certainly beats the Valuev who fought Holyfield.

[mcvey]

"going into the 11th I had it pretty close in terms of rounds"

Carnera supposedly suffered a broken ankle when Baer fell on him in the first round. He was limping noticably. If this is true, his performance was not nearly as bad as his critics imply, with the knockdowns partially due to the injury. On the other hand, as you pointed out, he could be reached with crude haymakers and for such a big and muscular man, he did not seem to have that much of a punch.

I do think that Carnera certainly beats the Valuev who fought Holyfield.
I beleive Carnera's ankle injury happened after the last knockdown,and he indicated to the referee that he could not continue,it was not broken by the way.

[COULDHAVEBEEN]

I watched this for the first time on ESPN classic. It wasn't as one sided as I thought it would have been. Going into the 11th I had it pretty close in terms of rounds, Carnera boxed pretty effectively and Max Baer flailed his arms about like a lunatic to good effect. It was a fairly entertaining and competitive fight for the most part. Some more thoughts....

Interesting viewpoint.

Baer knocked Carnera down about 10 or 11 times during that bout. Outside of Dempsey vs Willard I've never seen so many knockdowns in a single bout*.

These days you'd accumulate extra points in rounds where a knockdown or knockdowns occured.

*Admittedly there's not a lot of film from those old days when such large numbers of knockdowns occured.

[catasyou]

"going into the 11th I had it pretty close in terms of rounds"

Carnera supposedly suffered a broken ankle when Baer fell on him in the first round. He was limping noticably. If this is true, his performance was not nearly as bad as his critics imply, with the knockdowns partially due to the injury. On the other hand, as you pointed out, he could be reached with crude haymakers and for such a big and muscular man, he did not seem to have that much of a punch.

I do think that Carnera certainly beats the Valuev who fought Holyfield.Carnera beats any Valuev.

[Maxmomer]

Interesting viewpoint.

Baer knocked Carnera down about 10 or 11 times during that bout. Outside of Dempsey vs Willard I've never seen so many knockdowns in a single bout*.

These days you'd accumulate extra points in rounds where a knockdown or knockdowns occured.

*Admittedly there's not a lot of film from those old days when such large numbers of knockdowns occured.

Yeah, but I'd say that Carnera won almost all of the rounds that he wasn't knocked down in. Which is why I say that in terms of rounds it was close, scoring for the knockdowns, though, not really. When Carnera wasn't getting KD'd he was landing clean and boxing well, he made a pretty good fight of it, Dempsey-Willard was just a festival of one sided asskicking.

[My2Sense]

The notion that this was a one-sided fight is an inaccurate one, just like the notion that Baer's fight with Schmeling was one-sided. It comes from the fact that people described Baer as dealing out a lot of punishment to Carnera (which he did), and people have confused that with dominating the fight.

The fight essentially showed the best and worst of both fighters. Baer had a lot of success in the early and late rounds, but Carnera appeared to outbox/outwork him in between. Carnera showed that his chin and defense were questionable, but Baer showed his vulnerability to boxers and that his attack was fairly limited outside of his big right hand swings.

[OLD FOGEY]

I beleive Carnera's ankle injury happened after the last knockdown,and he indicated to the referee that he could not continue,it was not broken by the way.


Watching the film, I don't think it was broken either, but comparing this fight with the Sharkey fight of 1933 it is clear that Carnera has trouble moving backward after the second round or so and fights flat-footed. He has a noticable limp from the second round on and a couple of times almost loses his balance even though Baer is not hitting him. I think the story that he had some sort of ankle injury is true.

Despite all the knockdowns, Carnera did not appear badly hurt in the early rounds. One reason he went down so often is that Baer and the referee did not really give him a chance to get set. Carnera was clearly badly hurt in the 10th and 11th and was now going down hard.

[OLD FOGEY]

The notion that this was a one-sided fight is an inaccurate one, just like the notion that Baer's fight with Schmeling was one-sided. It comes from the fact that people described Baer as dealing out a lot of punishment to Carnera (which he did), and people have confused that with dominating the fight.

The fight essentially showed the best and worst of both fighters. Baer had a lot of success in the early and late rounds, but Carnera appeared to outbox/outwork him in between. Carnera showed that his chin and defense were questionable, but Baer showed his vulnerability to boxers and that his attack was fairly limited outside of his big right hand swings.

The second paragraph is an excellent observation.

[he grant]

I taped it and have rewatched it a few times ... Carnera has a huge heart and excellent recooperative powers. Baer looks like a very strong, hard hitting amateur ... in addition, he clearly loses interest during a fight, costs, wakes up and fights again. He did the same thing v.s. Schmeling, by far his biggest win ... Primo shows slow hands (Baer looks fast in comparison) , zero power and impossible to miss with a telegraphed right hand ... basically two of the worst heavyweight champions in history in a match up for the title ...

[Maxie's Gal]

Baer had a lot of success in the early and late rounds, but Carnera appeared to outbox/outwork him in between. Carnera showed that his chin and defense were questionable, but Baer showed his vulnerability to boxers and that his attack was fairly limited outside of his big right hand swings.

Baer's trainers told him to coast during the middle rounds because they were well aware that because of his lack of serious training for the fight, he would get easily winded.

NY Boxing Commissioner Brown, after observing Baer at his 3-ring circus of a training camp, actually tried to get the fight cancelled because he said Baer was in no shape to fight.

Cat
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[Maxie's Gal]

I beleive Carnera's ankle injury happened after the last knockdown,and he indicated to the referee that he could not continue,it was not broken by the way.

Correct it as a sprain but he did end up in the hospital because of all his other injuries. I have an original press photo of Max visiting him.

As I recall it was during the 5th or 6th round that the sprain ocurred.

How the hell are ya McVey ?

Cat
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[Maxie's Gal]

Max Baer was fucking crazy. Fucking crazy.

Yahhhhhhhhhhh, he was nuts in a good way. Check out a couple of the newsreels I have of his training camps, he's worse than you thought !

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Cat
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[Maxie's Gal]

One reason he went down so often is that Baer and the referee did not really give him a chance to get set. Carnera was clearly badly hurt in the 10th and 11th and was now going down hard.

Actually the sports writers observed that Carnera never took his full 9 count before getting up, he popped up like a jack in the box. If he was smart he would've taken his rest where he could, but did not.

Cat
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[road_warrior_99]

Well Cat, it is all relative when it comes to Maxie training for fights. I believe that Maxie trained hard for this fight compared to others from the reading and watching newsreels. Jack Dempsey was also training him and he did a lot of road work with his brother Buddy. Jack Dempsey made sure Max could go 15 rounds because he was invested in Baer.

The rounds that you say Max coasted? He was involved in long exchanges with Carnera where Carnera just kept landing 3 or 4 more punches than Max. Not saying Carnera really hurt Max, but Carnera really legitimately won those rounds and was surprisingly active. I have to say that the fact that Carnera really wasn't able to move on the ankle affected his performance, mostly because he couldn't get out of the way of the right hand.

On the point system it is a complete Baer slaughter, but with the rounds system in place it is interesting to think what would have happened if Carnera didn't have the bad ankle? The fight was very close on the rounds system.... I don't think 99.9% of the world knows this fact but it is fun for boxing enthusiasts like myself.

[Maxmomer]

Who are you people? I'm scared.

[Sam Dixon]

I beleive Carnera's ankle injury happened after the last knockdown,and he indicated to the referee that he could not continue,it was not broken by the way.

"An X-Ray examination made at Columus Hospital yesterday disclosed that Primo Carnera had fractured a bone in his right ankle Thursday night in his bout with Max Baer in which he lost the world's heavyweight championship. The examination showed a chip fracture of the astragalus or talus bone and the injured ankle was placed in a cast."

- New York Times, Jun 17th, 1934, and also reported in various other newspapers on that date.

Carnera initially claimed that his ankle was only sprained in the immediate aftermath of the fight (before it was checked out), and both him and his manager claimed the ankle was injured during the first round of the fight. Looking at the fight, I think it was the second knockdown where Carnera goes down with the ankle underneath him and bent in a bad way. Also when he got up it looked like he favoured that right ankle a bit, as it looked like there was a slight hobble or showed him having some difficulty with him putting weight on it when rising, especially compared to his left foot which seemed to plant solidly enough after the knockdown.