Could Patterson have done a better job against Liston?

[round15]

Tell me what you think. I've heard stories of Floyd not being ready, Floyd losing the fight in the dressing room because of fear and Floyd not fighting the right fight against Liston. Under different circumstances, would Floyd suffer the same humiliating one round beat down?

[GPater11093]

no he wouldnt

he was realy a light heavy with a normal chin annd he was fighting a big heavy with power

[OBCboxer]

There's not much he could have done more except survive for another few rounds. He didn't have the style or the punch resistance for that matter to go the distance much less win the fight. Floyd had skill but not the style or intangibles to beat Liston.

[Hydraulix]

In both fights, Floyd gave Liston temporary trouble with his bobbing and weaving. Once Sonny caught him, it was all downhill from there. Still, Floyd doesn't have the chin or the power to defeat Sonny.

[Russell]

Fear plays a large part in boxing. Look at how much easier it made Tyson's job at times.

You've got to applaud Patterson for charging headfirst at his fear rather then running from it.

[timmers612]

It was a suprise some time ago to read Floyds quote that Ingo hit harder then Liston. I've wondered if Patterson might have done better with a different trainer here as Machen frustrated and lasted 10 with Sonny, after being taken out in 1 by Ingo.

[jodan]

Patterson could not have done anymore than he did as he was fighting scared.

Contrary to what others are saying Patterson did have the punch power but just not the physical power/strength and overall presence needed to fight against Liston.

Was men against boys basically.

[mr. magoo]

Sonny would have always had Patterson's number......Simple as that.

[True Writer]

I saw the 2nd fight last night Patterson was scared shitless it reminded me of Seldon against Tyson.

[jowcol]

Resident Patterson nut-hugger here! My childhood hero! :happy
An old custodian I worked with years ago always said that Floyd fought the "people's fight". America wanted a Floyd win in an impressive manner but he simply couldn't deliver the goods.

Patterson's problem with Liston was his style. Many talk about his 'boxing' ability; he was a very skilled, slick, and savvy fighter but his game plan in virtually all his fights was to get in there and start mixing. He had the fastest HW combos and that big left hook could always hurt guys much bigger than him (and I think he could have rocked Sonny big-time with it)

IMO he could have kept that bob and weave we saw going and moved in and out a little more effectively but Sonny was simply a bad physical match-up for him. The Machen comparison isn't really valid. Styles make fights and IMO a prime Floyd beats a prime Machen much easier than a prime Liston (or prime-Ali for that matter)

In closing, Sonny said he hit Floyd harder than he had ever hit anyone (said he felt the impact deep into his back) and yet Floyd was still rising.
So much for the so many out there that have Floyd losing via KO to so many ATG. Nobody knocks Patterson OUT!

In closing (again :D) Patterson's only hope would have been to avoid the big leather, counter effectively, take the fight deep, and maybe land one of those big left hooks but he simply didn't have the physical tools to do so.

[Mendoza]

Patterson said he entered the ring knowing he would lose the re-match.

I suppose he could have lasted longer, if he used his legs more.

[Joe E]

Sonny had problems with fighters who moved, as is to be expected. Ali moved, Machen moved, Martin moved. If Floyd would have fought Liston the same way he fought Chuvalo, using movement, he could have extended the fight however in order to win he would have had to mix at one point and the outcome would have been the same.

[john garfield]

Tell me what you think. I've heard stories of Floyd not being ready, Floyd losing the fight in the dressing room because of fear and Floyd not fighting the right fight against Liston. Under different circumstances, would Floyd suffer the same humiliating one round beat down?

Your mention of Floyd cowering in the dressing room before fighting Liston brings to mind an incident I've posted in another thread, r15, but seems appropriate here:

When Joey Giardello was fightin' Walter Cartier, a tough NY middleweight, in the main-go at the ol' Garden I was in the dressin' room with a buddy who was on the undercard. Cartier was a very intense guy -- strapping shoulders and chest -- trained religiously under the watchful eye of his twin brother at Stillman’s Gym.

Walter was an orthodox, stand-up boxer with a solid right hand. And you could see, under his brother’s encouragement, he believed he could beat Joey and be vaulted into the title picture. He was gettin' his game face on.

Every one in the room was respectful of his need for quiet.

Suddenly, the locker door burst open. It was Giardello in an outrageously expensive camel’s hair coat tied at the waist -- cigar in his yap -- surrounded by an army of goombahs spillin' into the room -- Nothing but noise and commotion.

Joey strode over to Cartier, who’s mouth was agape, and gave’m a big slap on the back: “HI YA DOIN', WALTER!!” The blood drained from Cartier’s face.

Walter's TKO in the first round was a formality; he lost it in the dressing room.

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[Minotauro]

If he chose to box more then maybe he would have lasted longer but I still Liston stopping him.

[zadfrak]

I think Patterson would've needed to discard that peekaboo defense to have any hope against Liston. That defense is very predictable and everything is done on a count; dip left,dip right, come up with a hook. But it's almost always dip left fist and it's only bob 2 times & then spring up with a punch. When he sprang up a left hook was on its way. And holding those hands in that position is vulnerable to a stiff jab right up the middle and Liston had that and a nasty left hook off that jab. Those things are all wrong for the Liston style and Floyd wading in is going to get hit.

Maybe taking a page out of the Marciano attack style or later on, the Smokin Joe approach would've got him in better position to land his punches. Or trying to take a page out of the Holmes footwork style and use that mobility to try turning the guy.

[timmers612]

Zad, that was akin to what I had in mind about another trainer, some fighters can take on other styles and had Floyd been able he may have done better. Admitably though theres nothing in Patterson's history that showed much in this way. In the second Ingo fight he did change his jab to double jabs thrown a-bit higher so his shoulder could help ward off the counter right, and that did make him a little less squared off, but its not the dramatic change were talking about. As Jowcol said, he simply didn't have the physical tools here. By the way, great post Garfield!