Carlos Monzon vs. Roy Jones Jr.

[laxpdx]

Monzon definitely earns his paycheck in this one.....even if he loses.

[redrooster]

Monzon definitely earns his paycheck in this one.....even if he loses.

he'll lose all right. How is going to win? He can't outbox Roy and would struggle the whole night just to reach him. It would be like Hearns-Cuevas for 12 rounds. Or is it 15 rounds?

[SevenSamurai]

Roy Jones was a freak of nature in his prime. Comparing him to anyone from super-middleweight to light heavyweight is unfair. Jones UD.

[redrooster]

Monzon was a Middleweight, this fight takes place there. And there are a few at LHW that I would pick over Roy, not so sure about 160 or 168 though.

I even think Roy could take him out with a body shot or lightening hook to the head. It'd come so fast he wouldn't see it coming.

[brooklyn1550]

Jones by UD

[Stewbear]

Monzon late round KO.
As middleweight champion he is at least two levels above Roy Jones.

[TBooze]

Jones was good but he was no Monzon.

Jones' speed would cause Monzon problems, but Carlos would resolve them.

Monzon WU15 (9-6)

[SevenSamurai]

Monzon was a Middleweight, this fight takes place there. And there are a few at LHW that I would pick over Roy, not so sure about 160 or 168 though.

If the fight is at 160- then that makes it a closer fight because Roy Jones had trouble making this weight. At 168 or 175 I would pick Jones everytime.

[Stewbear]

:lol: That's it? That's your analysis? He would just resolve them? You guys badly underestimate how good and next level a prime Jones was. It was his speed, reflexes, and ability to make decisions in the blink of an eye as a counter. He threw punches that looked crazy and wild and that noone else would land, but he landed them clean all the time. He handled B-Hop and Toney like they were nothing, and Monzon I feel, good as he was, didn't have the speed to repeatedly get to him, though he may hurt him at times. Roy was just a different breed in his prime.

Is it not more simple to go
ohhhh reflexes
ohhhh speed
Roy Jones KO God:deal

[achillesthegreat]

Jones UD

[TBooze]

:lol: That's it? That's your analysis? He would just resolve them? You guys badly underestimate how good and next level a prime Jones was.

Jones should of been brilliant, but was rarely motivated and a fighter that goes life and death with a Montell Griffin is not going to beat Carlos Monzon.

I think you are under rating how good Monzon actually was. He was a whole level above 160lbs RJJ.

[TBooze]

Jones was brilliant. He was not at his best for the Griffin fight I will admit, he was at a stage when he wasn't the most motivated, but when he was on(Griffin rematch for example) he was damn near unstoppable. I assume we're talking both at their best here. No, nobody who ever fought was a level above a prime RJJ, even if they accomplished more or took more risks or whatever, nobody was ever better in that ring than a prime Jones. Then his absolute peak came at 168, but he was still prime at 160 I would say.

Jones spent virtually his entire career wasting his great talent. Yes he was brilliant, but for whatever reason he avoided many of the fights that would of made a worldwide superstar and man who should of been competing with Robinson as the finest fighter ever.

Sadly RJJ should of, could of, but normally didn't...

Monzon made the most of his amazing talent, even if it was not quite as good as RJJ.

[Senya13]

And the myth is still alive, that jab is going to work against Jones. Only idiots can think that, where not a single fighter Jones met was able establish their jab with any consistency. Virgil Hill easily had a better jab than Monzon, he had troubles landing any jabs at all.

[Stonehands89]

Monzon was a killer robot. If it's 15, I'd favor him. If it's 12, Jones has a better chance because of the speed and mobility, but Monzon was very strong physically and wouldn't be stopped.

Monzon would not be dunce and try to find Jones' head with his slow jab all night. He would jab at his chest and hit him all over and I think that the mental effect of Monzon coming, coming, and coming, would begin to wear on Jones.

After Jones wins the first 9 or 10 rounds (the first 5 easily), Monzon would begin to come on and would stop him in the (real) championship rounds.

Someone out here is confusing Monzon with Virgil Hill. There is no comparison.

[Duodenum]

Monzon was a killer robot. If it's 15, I'd favor him. If it's 12, Jones has a better chance because of the speed and mobility, but Monzon was very strong physically and wouldn't be stopped.

Monzon would not be dunce and try to find Jones' head with his slow jab all night. He would jab at his chest and hit him all over and I think that the mental effect of Monzon coming, coming, and coming, would begin to wear on Jones.

After Jones wins the first 9 or 10 rounds (the first 5 easily), Monzon would begin to come on and would stop him in the (real) championship rounds.

Someone out here is confusing Monzon with Virgil Hill. There is no comparison.Got that right.

If RJJ is going to have a chance, then intangibles need to be left out of the equation, and it has to be for 12 rounds. (Screw that sissy distance!) If intangibles were to be considered, then I'd bet the rent on Carlos.

[McGrain]

I don't often say this, but I feel this one could be a draw, or a nasty SD.

Splitting these two, round for round, would be horrible.

[Stonehands89]

Again, you guys act like we underestimate Monzon, and think his intangibles and his experience would pull him through and such, but I think you vastly underestimate Jones. Not just because of his speed and reflexes, but because of the way he saw things in the ring. He was a phenom, most spectacular fighter ever. I just see a bad matchup for Monzon.

Jones "saw things in the ring". Usually against mailmen and Pazmanians.

Monzon is oftentimes underrated and Jones's style leaves many starstruck. That kind of speed and power will do that -but when you join the glorifiers and call Joens the "most spectacular fighter" you are forgetting the fact that the man did not have the challenges that would have injected that style with substance. It appears to me that Jones-worshippers have a fetish for style over substance.

Which brings me to Monzon. Monzon wasn't pretty -his style unanimously took place 'out of the ring' with flashy clothes and flashy girls. But his substance (read his will) in the ring was something rare. It is true that a fighter with Monzon's style would have issues with Jones' speed and finesse. But Monzon defied what his own style would suggest. He would find a way to overcome what the untrained eye sees as deficiencies. He always did. He was a proven quanitity at a level beyond Jones.

Jones didn't always find a way ...in fact, Jones had one game, and when that game failed he either got disqualified, or knocked out. This is 15 rounds here. I see Monzon truly punishing Jones at the end and when Jones tries to take those respites on the ropes, Monzon would make that very costly. You seem to think that Monzon would fall victim to speed and stylistics. I don't. The man would ignore it and impose his will -and his will was herculean.

[Chicago Nights]

Lighting strikes the snail, all 12 rds.

[redrooster]

No, he wouldn't be stopping Monzon. You take how Monzon looked in his non-training, smoking later days as the real Monzon. He was not as un-impressive on film as he was in his later days, you could actually see why he was so effective. You base what you see of Monzon based on his style, but you refuse to see how effective it was.

Not to mention the fact that he wasn't gonna be stopped by anyone, in fact if anyone gets stopped it's Jones. But as is, I think Jones was too quick to be caught, although he could take some punishment for sure, but overral his speed and mobility would allow him to win a decision over Monzon.

Well, we both are smart enough to realize Monzon has little chance if any in this one. He's not winning on guile or picking and poking his way to a win and he could stick that jab of his up his ass because he'd never get the chance to measure him with Roy's right hand in his face.

Roy was one of the better punchers at middle as I've seen-he's up there with Robinson and so was his speed. His early blowouts of Thorton, Tate, and Harris are evidence enough for me.

I'd have to think at one point, Monzon's going to get caught and ruined by Roy's hook, after which Roy just toys with him, and bewilders him with flurris without end. And more bad news for Monzon is that Roy never seemed to tire, even in the late rounds.

[Street Lethal]

Jones dazzles Monzon.

[Senya13]

Jab to the chest? That will result in early KO win by Jones, as his right cross to the temple was one of the most fearsome punches the middleweight division has seen.
And of course, there's no comparison between Monzon's jab and Hill's, Hill's was much better, easily. He tried going to the head and to the body, he tried leading with jab, he tried countering with jab (to every Jones' attack), it simply didn't work. Same way as Wright couldn't land his jab on B-Hop, with some people jab simply doesn't work, there are several ways to make it useless.

[C. M. Clay II]

Jones easy. Too fast, too big, and too crafty for the ponderous Monzon. Monzon gives a game performance, but comes up short in the end. In a 15 rounder, it would be 10-4-1 for Jones.

Roy Jones Jr. UD 15 Carlos Monzon:good

[Holmes' Jab]

This fight would most likely be a very tricky one to score.

I'd say RJJ, by decision- speed and savvy being the key. Something like 9-5-1 in rounds sounds right, with Jones Jr doing enough to nick those close rounds (of which there may be a couple)

[ChrisPontius]

Jab to the chest? That will result in early KO win by Jones, as his right cross to the temple was one of the most fearsome punches the middleweight division has seen.
And of course, there's no comparison between Monzon's jab and Hill's, Hill's was much better, easily. He tried going to the head and to the body, he tried leading with jab, he tried countering with jab (to every Jones' attack), it simply didn't work. Same way as Wright couldn't land his jab on B-Hop, with some people jab simply doesn't work, there are several ways to make it useless.

Early knockout? While Jones has great power, he didn't stop Hopkins and Toney. Both have durability roughly as good as Monzon and he hit both with clean, hard combinations. This fight will go the distance.

[Senya13]

Hopkins was fighting in cautios style, plus Jones had an injured right hand.
Toney has a much better defense than Monzon.

[Stonehands89]

It's not that easy to impose your will, why does everyone say something like that? I bet you're one of the same people who uses the phrase "he didn't have any power to keep him off" and things like that.

Boxing is all about "imposing your will", my friend. And having a good swat is indeed a deterrent for the other man. So, you are damn right I'm "one of those people"! You'll also hear me say "styles make fights" and "box a puncher", punch a boxer" -and many other boxing adages that are tried and true. Such adages sure beat youthful ejaculations like "he was the most spectacular fighter ever!"

Monzon was no robot, much as he fought like one, he couldn't just seek and destroy every fighter, especially one of Jones's skills and ability and ring intelligence, which is so vastly underrated.
Monzon hadn't been beat in 13 years. He was never stopped in 100 fights. And names like Griffith, Benvenuti, Valdez, and Briscoe are nothing to sneeze at.

Jones's natural talent are glorified in this corner -I put him a number one in terms of athleticism. But skills and ring generalship? Jones made basic errors and was not as adaptable as you pretend. Monzon was more of a killer robot than Jones was "superman".

And I'm not sure I agree that Bernard(who's as good head to head as Monzon) and Toney were mailmen. I bet people would be saying Toney's counter-punching, slickness, and skill at 168 would cause Jones massive problems had they not actually fought. But the thing is he dominated him easily, and pretty easily beat Hopkins as well.
Tell me who on his record was a mailman, please, so that I know you get the point.

The problem with Jones is that he fought and beat Hopkins and Toney gloriously, but then took easy street for damn near a decade before fighting Ruiz -the most vulnerable HW who was made to order for Jones. And I think it is pretty well-established that Hopkins hadn't hit his stride yet and James "Headcase" Toney was a dud that night. They remain great victories, but rematches would have removed these questions.

I just simply cannot see Monzon catching him with the jab repeatedly or timing him, and Jones's speed and reflexes would work well with a fighter of Monzon's skills, as Monzon was not neccessarily the most physicall gifted or speedy fighter with the most pop. I think Jones would outbox him, although I do agree that Monzon that Monzon could not simply be held off forever and would come on stronger in the later rounds.
I am not sure you got the argument: Jones would make him look a day late and dollar short for half the fight. Monzon would be closing the distance and hitting him where he could -which would be mostly arms and body. Jones's style is not ideal for 15 rounds. It's not. His mentality isn't either -Jones was allergic to getting hit and avoided prolonged warfare with a banger. 15 rounds forces him to engage more and the chances of Monzon catching him increases.

Finally, you or someone acknowledge that Jones would "get hurt" by Monzon. If Monzon hurts him, the fight would be over, and as you say "Monzon could not be simply held off forever."

Fact is, Jones has a great chance, but I favor Monzon, who has a better chance for the reasons outlined.

[Senya13]

Jones' style was ideal for long fights. He didn't waste energy and could fight 20 rounds, 30 rounds, it would be no problem for his stamina.

[My dinner with Conteh]

This fight would pan out like the Camacho-Rosario contest. Jones would dazzle Carlos early on, then one big looping right hand would turn the contest on its head and Jones would go all 'Hector' on us. However, it would go to the distance and arguments would ensue for all eternity.

[Senya13]

Another made up story. Which fight did it happen in, where Jones got cautious after getting hit, instead of trying to avenge every situation where he got hit cleanly?

[My dinner with Conteh]

Another made up story. Which fight did it happen in, where Jones got cautious after getting hit, instead of trying to avenge every situation where he got hit cleanly?


Eh? I didn't say it happened, it's just my scenario that I envisage (hey, 'scenario' sounds a bit like 'Rosario' don't it:p ). Ok then, er...er..Jones takes loads of steroids and becomes the world's strongest man and Monzon ends up dead. There.

[Senya13]

My posts about Jones are based on what has been.
Such as:

1) stamina
Outside of 1st Tarver fight (where Jones looked weary before the fight even started), in which other fight did Jones look winded at the end of 12th round?

2) heart
Most of the time when Jones got hit flush or allowed his opponent to look particularly good in some episode, Roy tried to avenge it right there.

3) jab
Nobody has ever been able to set up an effective jab against Jones.

[bumdujour]

jones UD. just too much speed.

[Stonehands89]

You didn't outline anything, you pissed on Jones's accomplishments without recognizing that Monzon fought all smaller men, a few of which were past their prime blown up WW's. I'd say Hopkins and Toney were better at 160 and 168 than Napoles and Griffith were at 160. Bottom line, Jones's style was suited to beat the slower Monzon. And as Senya said, you have no argument for saying Jones's style wasn't suited to go the full 15. He never got gassed until late in his career when he was past it and weight drained in the first Tarver fight.

I piss on masturbating glorifiers who replace objectivity with circular reasoning and emotion. Like Senya. I don't count you among them -although your boost of Senya casts a bad shadow on your credibility. Repent before it's too late. Seriously.

[Lex]

Roy Jones hates infighting - he's no good at it. Even the mediocre David Telesco made Jones look bad when he'd bull rush Jones into the ropes. And Glen Johnson destroyed Jones against the ropes.

Monzon was smart enough that he'd pick up on this from watching tapes or just during the first few rounds. He was a deadly infighter and strong enough to drive any middleweight to the ropes and corners.

It would be an ugly fight with Jones covering up against the ropes after being surprised by Monzon's deceptive power. Jones would flurry occasionally hoping to steal rounds but in the end Monzon wins a close but unanimous decision.

As for KOs, no way Jones KOs Monzon. But Jones has admitted that even as an amateur he was knocked out. Jones never had the indomitable will to take unnecessary risks. Once he felt Monzon's power he might be tempted to retaliate, but it would cost him. Jones was most effective against tentative fighters. Monzon would just keep walking through Jones' shots, which eventually becomes discouraging.

[Stewbear]

To tell the truth, I don't often agree with Senya, but he made a good point, there is no basis for saying Jones didn't have the stamina to go 15. He fought the same way the whole fight.

Apart from the fact he never fought for 15 rounds:good

[Senya13]

Roy Jones hates infighting - he's no good at it.
The most stupid post I've read today.

Jones was most effective against tentative fighters.
Jones looked least effective against fighters who tried to stay back and make him lead and who tried to counter him.

[Senya13]

Apart from the fact he never fought for 15 rounds:good
If a runner A is known to be a world class sportsman at 4000 meters and looks fresh as a daisy after running such distance, that means he will drop dead when he attempts to run 5000 meters?

[My dinner with Conteh]

If a runner A is known to be a world class sportsman at 4000 meters and looks fresh as a daisy after running such distance, that means he will drop dead when he attempts to run 5000 meters?


No, but many a top athlete has faded in the last lap or so.

[Stonehands89]

To tell the truth, I don't often agree with Senya, but he made a good point, there is no basis for saying Jones didn't have the stamina to go 15. He fought the same way the whole fight.
Senya's point sucks as it usually does. It doesn't address my argument whatsoever. I didn't question Jones' stamina. His stamina was great. My argument was that Jones's style was not ideal to go 15 rounds against Monzon -and the reason is because Monzon has more 3 more rounds to analyze, time, and stalk Jones and Monzon's opportunities to crash his chin increases by ~20%.

Monzon's style was well-suited for 15 or 20 rounds, because he was deliberate and patient and his power did not diminish like most punchers in later rounds. Jones' never went more than 12 rounds and while I am sure that he could sustain 15 stamina-wise, in this fight those 3 rounds could decide the fight. Over 12, Jones could simply dazzle him to a points win.

Incidentally, I find that to be the error most posters on this thread are making. They are commenting on a fight that is only 12 rounds in their heads. Either that or they have never seen Monzon's films.

A 15 round fight is far different than a 12 rounder. Think of all the bouts that would in all likelihood would have been different altogether: Hagler-Leonard, Chavez-Taylor, Marciano-Walcott, Leonard-Hearns, Leonard-Hearns II and on and on.

[redrooster]

Another made up story. Which fight did it happen in, where Jones got cautious after getting hit, instead of trying to avenge every situation where he got hit cleanly?

Don't respond to him. Can't you tell by now he's an idiot?

[redrooster]

Senya is a fuckin' douche that should not be taken seriously.

Assassin, I know you have more class than that. We can't all agree on outcomes but leave the insults to the ten year old drummer boy

[Senya13]

3 more rounds for a robot to analyze Jones? Monzon needs Blackburn, Arcel and Futch all together in his corner to analyze such fighter as Jones and even then it might appear too difficult riddle for them to solve. He's too versatile and unpredictable.

[Silver]

seems like most of you are picking jones. hard not to. monzon is the more accomplished fighter but jones was clearly more talented.

[Chicago Nights]

Styles makes fights.

Being fast is good.

[JohnThomas1]

I've always thought Jones a stylistic dilemna vs Hagler and Monzon, his speed, reflex and sharpness are remarkable even at 160. He's also not going to take risks and i see no probs with his stamina. I think Hagler would have the better chance of the two. I think speedy boxer punchers would have better chance of taking Jones out, SRR and to a slightly lesser extent Hearn's.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I've always thought Jones a stylistic dilemna vs Hagler and Monzon.


Spot on. He is. They both have a chance in the latter stages but Jones would hold a fairly wide points lead in the first half of the fight. I think the Hagler fight would be closer, points wise, but Monzon has the heavier single shot in which, potentially, could turn the fight around.


I think speedy boxer punchers would have better chance of taking Jones out, SRR and to a slightly lesser extent Hearn's.


Yep again. Hearns, especially, has the best chance of all. I always though that.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I think the likes of Senya don't realise how highly I rate Jones at 160 (and 168). I was one of the original Jones cheerleaders in the early 1990s (in boxing mag letters pages). :bbb

[JohnThomas1]

3 more rounds for a robot to analyze Jones? Monzon needs Blackburn, Arcel and Futch all together in his corner to analyze such fighter as Jones and even then it might appear too difficult riddle for them to solve. He's too versatile and unpredictable.

Futch sure had him going with Griffin tho, an average fighter at best.

[JohnThomas1]

Jones' style was ideal for long fights. He didn't waste energy and could fight 20 rounds, 30 rounds, it would be no problem for his stamina.

:blood

[JohnThomas1]

I think the likes of Senya don't realise how highly I rate Jones at 160 (and 168). I was one of the original Jones cheerleaders in the early 1990s (in boxing mag letters pages). :bbb

He was some fighter alright. Detractors waited decades to take him down but the trouble is, whether they like it or not he was past it by then and the losses hardly carry great weight. Jones would have hammered both a few short years earlier, hell he even decisioned Tarver in their initial encounter tho he looked like he was slipping. The second fight confirmed just how fast.

[JohnThomas1]

Spot on. He is. They both have a chance in the latter stages but Jones would hold a fairly wide points lead in the first half of the fight. I think the Hagler fight would be closer, points wise, but Monzon has the heavier single shot in which, potentially, could turn the fight around.





Yep again. Hearns, especially, has the best chance of all. I always though that.

We're certainly seeing eye to eye. Hearns has the sensational blend of speed and power as well as size and reach to be a serious threat. Whether Jones chin eroded later or not i'm certain Hearns could take him out regardless. Of course Jones poses his own stoppage threat. SRR at his early best at 160 is a show, he's got an overall offense probably comparable to Hearns and a better chin.

[Senya13]

Futch sure had him going with Griffin tho, an average fighter at best.
An average fighter, but a very good boxer. Still it wasn't enough to hope to get a win over Jones (that is he couldn't have planned that Jones would hit Griffin when he was down and get disqualified, which was against the rules anyway, as the referee's decision was Jones' win, and the comissioner had no power to overrule that decision).

[JohnThomas1]

An average fighter, but a very good boxer. Still it wasn't enough to hope to get a win over Jones (that is he couldn't have planned that Jones would hit Griffin when he was down and get disqualified, which was against the rules anyway, as the referee's decision was Jones' win, and the comissioner had no power to overrule that decision).

Yes, but the level of success he had with an average fighter such as Griffin was eye opening to say the least. Jones was uber frustrated. Give Futch guys like Hagler, Monzon and SRR and he'd better be respected that's for sure.

[Senya13]

Griffin would make Hagler and Monzon look totally stupid for a while, before (and that's a big if) they figure out how to catch him with any big punches. SRR would lose the fight at 175lb vs Griffin.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Griffin would make Hagler and Monzon look totally stupid for a while, before (and that's a big if) they figure out how to catch him with any big punches. SRR would lose the fight at 175lb vs Griffin.



"Taxi for Senya".

[JohnThomas1]

Griffin would make Hagler and Monzon look totally stupid for a while, before (and that's a big if) they figure out how to catch him with any big punches. SRR would lose the fight at 175lb vs Griffin.

Who would of thought, Montell Griffin of all peeps schooling Hagler and Monzon after which he pummels SRR to a steadfast defeat

:lol:

Montell Griffin #23 ATG (Tho Sosa competes heavily for the spot)

[redrooster]

lol..

C'mon though. Jones knocking Monzon out? and EARLY? :scaredas:

I wouldn't bet on that but Roy had the nack for getting to anyone early in his 4, 5 year at pro. Keep in mind Monzon hit the deck early with Valdez but by then he was getting old

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Lex
Roy Jones hates infighting - he's no good at it.

Posted by Senya13: The most stupid post I've read today.

So you're admitting you never watched the RJJ vs. Telesco or Glen Johnson fights.

[Senya13]

Jones has been known to like fighting off the ropes (which means infighting most of the time) since he was an amateur (according to Iceman Scully's article who'd been in the training camp with Roy back then).
Have you seen Castro, Hopkins, Malinga, Tate, Toney, Pazienza, Sosa (especially this one), Lucas (several times he went to the ropes and waved his hand inviting Lucas to come over and try his luck there), Brannon, McCallum (where was Jones standing when he knocked Body Snatcher down?), and pretty much every other light heavyweight fight after that. In each one Jones has gone to the ropes on many occasions (on his own, not trying to run or escape, when he could have if he wanted)?

Glen Johnson fight, "destroying Jones at the ropes".

Watch the 1st round in slow-motion. Roy blocked, slipped or rolled with most of the punches Johnson threw (lot of those that actually landed cleanly got to the back and to the back of the head, which are illegal punches).

Especially interesting is statistics of Johnson's punching activity. There're some myths about it, that Johnson was pummeling Jones non-stop, throwing nearly hundred punches per round or something of that kind.

1st round, according to compubox Glen threw 84 punches (they say he landed 22, but I don't think so, agains, based on slow-mo watching of the fight).

What should we expect, that he would turn up the pace even higher in the next rounds?

After 3rd round: Johnson 39/171 Jones 40/120
Ie, in the 2nd and 3rd rounds Johnson slowed down to an average of 43.5 punches per round, which is 10 punches less than average light heavyweight output according to compubox (54 punches/round).
That's how he was "destroying" Jones.

Round 4 - Johnson 13/48, still 6 punches lower than 175lb average.

Round 5 - finally he "woke up" a little - 21/62, 8 punches higher than average l-h.

Round 6 - no data, but according to my count, he threw about 50 punches, half of which took place in the last 40 seconds of the round after Jones walked up to the ropes on his own, the first 2.5 mins of the round Johnson was throwing single jabs, basically none of which landed, being very passive.

Round 7 - Johnson threw 45 punches (according to my count it was 47 punches).

Round 8 - 21/58.

Basically, Johnson's punching rate was about 53 punches per round, which is a light heavyweight average.

[red cobra]

I believe that Monzon would have found a way to beat Jones. True, Jones was flashier and faster than Monzon, but Carlos' strengths were as much mental as they were physical. I could see Jones leading on points and "outflashing" Monzon over12 rounds, but Monzon's superior toughness in the deep waters of the old 15 round limit would come through. I would have Carlos using guile and superior tactics to defeat guys like Robinson and Hagler over 15 rounds, but I think a right hand bomb would be Jone's undoing in the 14th or 15th against Monzon. Jones didn't have a chin when he was Middleweight either, and against a truly tough guy like Monzon, it would be a matter of time before a big right hand would land, making the scoring of their fight irrelevant.

[red cobra]

Jones has been known to like fighting off the ropes (which means infighting most of the time) since he was an amateur (according to Iceman Scully's article who'd been in the training camp with Roy back then).
Have you seen Castro, Hopkins, Malinga, Tate, Toney, Pazienza, Sosa (especially this one), Lucas (several times he went to the ropes and waved his hand inviting Lucas to come over and try his luck there), Brannon, McCallum (where was Jones standing when he knocked Body Snatcher down?), and pretty much every other light heavyweight fight after that. In each one Jones has gone to the ropes on many occasions (on his own, not trying to run or escape, when he could have if he wanted)?

Glen Johnson fight, "destroying Jones at the ropes".

Watch the 1st round in slow-motion. Roy blocked, slipped or rolled with most of the punches Johnson threw (lot of those that actually landed cleanly got to the back and to the back of the head, which are illegal punches).

Especially interesting is statistics of Johnson's punching activity. There're some myths about it, that Johnson was pummeling Jones non-stop, throwing nearly hundred punches per round or something of that kind.

1st round, according to compubox Glen threw 84 punches (they say he landed 22, but I don't think so, agains, based on slow-mo watching of the fight).

What should we expect, that he would turn up the pace even higher in the next rounds?

After 3rd round: Johnson 39/171 Jones 40/120
Ie, in the 2nd and 3rd rounds Johnson slowed down to an average of 43.5 punches per round, which is 10 punches less than average light heavyweight output according to compubox (54 punches/round).
That's how he was "destroying" Jones.

Round 4 - Johnson 13/48, still 6 punches lower than 175lb average.

Round 5 - finally he "woke up" a little - 21/62, 8 punches higher than average l-h.

Round 6 - no data, but according to my count, he threw about 50 punches, half of which took place in the last 40 seconds of the round after Jones walked up to the ropes on his own, the first 2.5 mins of the round Johnson was throwing single jabs, basically none of which landed, being very passive.

Round 7 - Johnson threw 45 punches (according to my count it was 47 punches).

Round 8 - 21/58.

Basically, Johnson's punching rate was about 53 punches per round, which is a light heavyweight average.
Yeah, it just looked like he was throwing so much more because.......Jones was so overwhelmed by it and afraid to get hurt that he threw next to nothing. It was all an illusion, you see.

[Senya13]

Next to nothing? Indeed.

Round 3 - I counted Jones landing 29 punches to Johnson's 12.
Round 4 - Jones landed 17 punches to Johnson's 12.

Compubox stats for power punches:
G. Johnson 71/235
Jones threw 66/204

Johnson was far ahead in total punches only due to jabs:
G. Johnson: 47/202 (23%)
Jones: 9/66 (14%)
but, as usual, that's bullshit, and there were nowhere near 47 landed jabs from Glen, he missed almost all that he threw to the head and he didn't throw to the body that often.

Also, consider that almost all punches Johnson threw in the 1st round were power punches, so in rounds 2-9 it was about 150-160 power punches by Johnson (about 21-22 power punches per round) against Jones' 190 or thereabouts (he threw maybe a dozen counters in the 1st round, most of them landed).

[red cobra]

Next to nothing? Indeed.

Round 3 - I counted Jones landing 29 punches to Johnson's 12.
Round 4 - Jones landed 17 punches to Johnson's 12.

Compubox stats for power punches:
G. Johnson 71/235
Jones threw 66/204

Johnson was far ahead in total punches only due to jabs:
G. Johnson: 47/202 (23%)
Jones: 9/66 (14%)
but, as usual, that's bullshit, and there were nowhere near 47 landed jabs from Glen, he missed almost all that he threw to the head and he didn't throw to the body that often.

Also, consider that almost all punches Johnson threw in the 1st round were power punches, so in rounds 2-9 it was about 150-160 power punches by Johnson (about 21-22 power punches per round) against Jones' 190 or thereabouts (he threw maybe a dozen counters in the 1st round, most of them landed).
So what is all this statistical trivia supposed to mean, that your hero Roy Jones actually did great against Glen Johnson? I guess he really didn't lose after all. He was dominating Johnson all the while! What a bunch of crap!! The big essential truth here is that in the only occasions Mr. Jones had to sample any punches of consequence to his whiskers, the only times he was ever tested in battle by anyone other than a scared part time postman , policeman, or cab driver or a third rater hopelessly in over their heads, HE WAS BRUTALLY KO'D!!! He has all these superb natural gifts, these great athletic gifts, but he lacks two things, guts and a chin. Poor old shot Tito Trinidad has only one hope, and that is to land a haymaker to the chin. He will certainly not be so lucky. This will be a big blowout for Jones over a washed out, shot Tito Trinidad. Another great triumph for Jones over a warm body, although a once great warm body. Jones has never had the guts to fight the wide range of fighters available to him throughout his career like Sugar Ray Robinson, Marvin Hagler, Thomas Hearns, Sugar Ray Leonard, Muhammad Ali, Carlos Monzon, Roberto Duran, etc..... How in the world could he have defeated a super tough elite great of the past like Carlos Monzon? Monzon would have overcome the deficit in physical gifts and speed and flash that Jones admittedly had to ravage him in the deep waters of the 13th thru 15th rounds and wreck that delicate chin of his for a ko. All it would have taken would have been a right hand bomb similar to the one used to ko Nino Benvenuti.

[Senya13]

Who was the better fighter vs Roy Jones Jr, Glen Johnson or Merqui Sosa? Which of them was named the best chin in boxing and the hardest light heavyweight puncher prior to the bout, and who pressed Jones harder? The answer is obvious to anyone with some brains.

[Lex]

Wow, I know Roy Jones is great, but I didn't realize how great. He wins even when he gets KO'd. Sorta ironic, considering that's how Montell Griffin beat Jones.

[Lampley]

I think Roy is too fast for Monzon at 160, although I think it would be a good scrap with plenty of suspenseful moments. In terms of pace (obviously not style), I view it like a Williams/Margarito kind of deal.

Roy wasn't nearly as strong at 160 as he was at 168, and for that reason I think he'd have to work especially hard to stay away from Monzon for 15. There's no way he wins this easily. Still, athletically he's on a different level, and he'd make Monzon look foolish for much of the fight.

I'd favor Hagler slightly over Jones at 160 because I think he'd get Jones to the ropes (who had a natural tendency to go there even early in his career) and outwork him over a long fight. At 168, Jones is too much for Marvin.

[Lampley]

Next to nothing? Indeed.

Round 3 - I counted Jones landing 29 punches to Johnson's 12.
Round 4 - Jones landed 17 punches to Johnson's 12.

Compubox stats for power punches:
G. Johnson 71/235
Jones threw 66/204

Johnson was far ahead in total punches only due to jabs:
G. Johnson: 47/202 (23%)
Jones: 9/66 (14%)
but, as usual, that's bullshit, and there were nowhere near 47 landed jabs from Glen, he missed almost all that he threw to the head and he didn't throw to the body that often.

Also, consider that almost all punches Johnson threw in the 1st round were power punches, so in rounds 2-9 it was about 150-160 power punches by Johnson (about 21-22 power punches per round) against Jones' 190 or thereabouts (he threw maybe a dozen counters in the 1st round, most of them landed).

I don't understand your point here at all. Glen was the better man in that fight, by far, even before the KO. Jones was and is finished.

[Senya13]

My point was, some people think it was the pressure that gradually wore Jones down and finished him. But in reality, Glen Johnson ceased to throw that many punches or pressure Jones that much from 2nd round on. He still occasionally did throw some leather, but only when Jones went to the ropes on his own. not because Johnson was cutting the ring and pressuring him that effectively.

[Sizzle]

Monzon is in an entirely different class to Roy Jones Jnr, he'd break him in two. I can't see Jones' fundamentally flawed, passive style causing Monzon any stylistic problems.

[Senya13]

Jones at 160 and 168 was an entirely different fighter to Jones at 175. There was no passivity about him, he could throw up to a hundred punches per round, without even getting winded.

[Pat_Lowe]

My point was, some people think it was the pressure that gradually wore Jones down and finished him. But in reality, Glen Johnson ceased to throw that many punches or pressure Jones that much from 2nd round on. He still occasionally did throw some leather, but only when Jones went to the ropes on his own. not because Johnson was cutting the ring and pressuring him that effectively.

If Roy was such a ring genious why would he go to the ropes where his opponent was effective against him?

[Sizzle]

Jones at 160 and 168 was an entirely different fighter to Jones at 175. There was no passivity about him, he could throw up to a hundred punches per round, without even getting winded.

His performance against Hopkins is one of the most passive displays I've ever seen from a fighter with the significantly superior punching power.

[Sizzle]

You are always wrong about everything.

Erm, you can't be "wrong" about predicting the outcome of a hypothetical matchup. I'm not the only one thats picked Monzon!:patsch

You need to look outside the square, gain a sense of perspective and stop getting your knickers in a twist whenever a poster doesn't scoff the nutsacks of Whitaker or Roid Jones.

[Sizzle]

Nothing to do with Whitaker, but you're obviously a Jones hater to say Monzon was on a whole nother level and shit like that. And aren't you the guy claiming Floyd is the best and would beat guys like Whitaker? Yet you think Jones sucks? :lol:

1. Please find me the post where I said Floyd would beat Whitaker

2. This was my exact post today on Mayweather

"Mayweather cleaned out the 130lbs weight division, defeated the No.1 ranked fighter Corrales in inspired fashion - He then jumped up to lightweight, and twice defeated the top ranked fighter in that division - He jumped up to 140lbs and established himself as one of the best fighters in the division, but didn't have the opportunity to fight the top dog Hatton (he does now though) - He then beat the top-ranked fighters at Welterweight (yes, Baldomir was considered the champion by the Ring and all credible boxing sources) and then went on to defeat an all-time great light middleweight, Oscar De La Hoya (admittedly on the slide) but didn't go on to fight the top ranked fighters in this division, rather he's gone back down to 140lbs to take care of unfinished business in Hatton.

That's quite a remarkable resume, and he's done it all in ten years, without suffering any losses - That's the consistency of a true all-time-great. He's certainly not top10, but he's not as far behind as you suggest."

Rather than telling me on an unrelated thread that I'm "always wrong" why don't you pick it apart if my argument is so flawed?

As for Roid Jones, I happen to think he's tremendously overrated. Monzon was an exceptional middleweight, undefeated against top-level ranked opposition with some very decisive displays. Perhaps brush up on your history before questioning his resume at middleweight. I rank him 2nd, and I don't rank Roid Jones anywhere near my top10.

[Senya13]

If Roy was such a ring genious why would he go to the ropes where his opponent was effective against him?
Johnson had as much "effectivity" against Jones on the ropes as did Ajamu and Hanshaw in two last fights - ie, very little. Johnson outworked Jones, but only by more activity, not by being effective in his offense. Before somebody mentions the knockout, it happened not by the ropes, but in the center of the ring.

[Senya13]

His performance against Hopkins is one of the most passive displays I've ever seen from a fighter with the significantly superior punching power.
That's just one fight, with an injured right hand against the best middleweight of the 1990s and 2000s. Monzon is nowhere even close to Hopkins skill-wise or cleverness-wise, he looks primitive and one-dimensional compared to B-Hop.

[JohnThomas1]

Johnson had as much "effectivity" against Jones on the ropes as did Ajamu and Hanshaw in two last fights - ie, very little. Johnson outworked Jones, but only by more activity, not by being effective in his offense. Before somebody mentions the knockout, it happened not by the ropes, but in the center of the ring.

You still haven't learnt. When other fans are presenting infallible cases to excuse their hero's losses late in his career here you are chairing debates that need not even get deep and refusing to let go. Jones showed undeniable (to an unbiased viewer) signs of slippage in the first Tarver fight which was confirmed in the rematch and rammed down our throats in the Johnson fight. Let it go for gods sake.

[My dinner with Conteh]

You still haven't learnt. When other fans are presenting infallible cases to excuse their hero's losses late in his career here you are chairing debates that need not even get deep and refusing to let go. Jones showed undeniable (to an unbiased viewer) signs of slippage in the first Tarver fight which was confirmed in the rematch and rammed down our throats in the Johnson fight. Let it go for gods sake.


I know. I don't read threads anymore when he enters them.

[JohnThomas1]

I know. I don't read threads anymore when he enters them.

Does he not realise he does good old Roy more harm than good by the way he rambles on about the Tarver and Johnson matches? As a fan he's like that punch drunk fighter that just doesn't know when to let go.

[Senya13]

You still haven't learnt. When other fans are presenting infallible cases to excuse their hero's losses late in his career here you are chairing debates that need not even get deep and refusing to let go. Jones showed undeniable (to an unbiased viewer) signs of slippage in the first Tarver fight which was confirmed in the rematch and rammed down our throats in the Johnson fight. Let it go for gods sake.
You are posting irrelevant statements that can be considered flood and nothing else. What I wrote in my post was what had been - Glen Johnson was very ineffective with his punching accuracy while Jones was on the ropes. Actually, same as Tarver had been, most punches getting stuck in the block.

[Icemmann]

Does he not realise he does good old Roy more harm than good by the way he rambles on about the Tarver and Johnson matches? As a fan he's like that punch drunk fighter that just doesn't know when to let go.

Leave Arturo Gatti out of this.

[JohnThomas1]

You are posting irrelevant statements that can be considered flood and nothing else. What I wrote in my post was what had been - Glen Johnson was very ineffective with his punching accuracy while Jones was on the ropes. Actually, same as Tarver had been, most punches getting stuck in the block.

You'd never get it would you.

[JohnThomas1]

Leave Arturo Gatti out of this.

Hahahaha. Hey, any chance of human relations with one of those spunks before you axe them?

:yikes

[Senya13]

You'd never get it that it does more harm to allow completely false statements about Jones spread freely on the forum. Such as the one that Jones is vulnerable to pressure or can't fight off the ropes.

[Icemmann]

Hahahaha. Hey, any chance of human relations with one of those spunks before you axe them?

:yikes

You'd have to ask Mr Kool, he's the axeman. I've been trying to get the chick on the right to post her boobs for awhile now. It's almost as futile as trying to get Roy Jones and DM in the ring together. :verysad

[JohnThomas1]

You'd have to ask Mr Kool, he's the axeman. I've been trying to get the chick on the right to post her boobs for awhile now. It's almost as futile as trying to get Roy Jones and DM in the ring together. :verysad

If she ends up posting, i'm your man!! Holler, or better still the one on the right would do me just dandy

:D

[Icemmann]

If she ends up posting, i'm your man!! Holler, or better still the one on the right would do me just dandy

:D

She frequents the lounge. Feel free to try and crack her Winky Wright style defense. :lol:



Oh yeah. back on topic.


Tarver KO 2 Jones

[JohnThomas1]

She frequents the lounge. Feel free to try and crack her Winky Wright style defense. :lol:



Oh yeah. back on topic.


Tarver KO 2 Jones

Sounds like i need me some Bernard Hopkins

:lol:

[red cobra]

That's just one fight, with an injured right hand against the best middleweight of the 1990s and 2000s. Monzon is nowhere even close to Hopkins skill-wise or cleverness-wise, he looks primitive and one-dimensional compared to B-Hop.
Monzon fought the equal of and the superior to Hopkins, but Hopkins never met, much less defeated anyone the equal of Monzon. I know you won't agree, but I wanted to tell you how wrong you are. Monzon W15 Hopkins.

[Sweet Science]

Monzon fought the equal of and the superior to Hopkins, but Hopkins never met, much less defeated anyone the equal of Monzon. I know you won't agree, but I wanted to tell you how wrong you are. Monzon W15 Hopkins.

You are probably correct. Hopkins himself was recentley asked in an interview who he considered his greatest threats in the history of the middleweight divison. Monzon was the only fighter Hopkins said he could see beating him, he even said he'd probably beat Robinson at 160 as he wasn't as perfect at Middleweight than welter. He also said him against Hagler would be 50/50, an all out war that could go either way. But he admitted Monzon would probably defeat him.

[Sweet Science]

I think Hopkins is forgetting someone.

Jones? Toney? Possibly Leonard?.

All three would be in with a chance too.

[redrooster]

You are probably correct. Hopkins himself was recentley asked in an interview who he considered his greatest threats in the history of the middleweight divison. Monzon was the only fighter Hopkins said he could see beating him, he even said he'd probably beat Robinson at 160 as he wasn't as perfect at Middleweight than welter. He also said him against Hagler would be 50/50, an all out war that could go either way. But he admitted Monzon would probably defeat him.

In his dreams!

[Sweet Science]

Yeah I was saying Jones obviously, given their fight. Yeah yeah he wa young, but so was Roy, and both fought roughly the same styles in their primes, just better. Jones's style would always have beaten Hopkins.

It's a shame there wasn't a 2nd fight between Jones and Hopkins later in their careers I think Hopkins would have fought a different fight and not have been as tentative and respectful. I could see him beating Roy at his peak.

[Senya13]

Monzon fought the equal of and the superior to Hopkins, but Hopkins never met, much less defeated anyone the equal of Monzon. I know you won't agree, but I wanted to tell you how wrong you are. Monzon W15 Hopkins.
And what does this have to do with Hopkins being much more skillful, clever and versatile boxer?