You MMA fans seriously think they go toe to toe with boxers?

[Primenal]

I don't want to rain down on peoples sports here, but I hear this a lot "If a boxer fights MMA the boxer will lose, and if the MMA fighter fights a boxing match he'll lose." You guys seriously believe this is the case...After watching something like tonight?
I watched the card, and don't watch a lot of UFC, but enough to understand *some* matches are good/ exciting, and others are 2 dudes rolling around wtih eachother. So, since I'm a boxing fan, and like action I like to watch standup fights. Tonight gave me what I wanted, but tonight also told me a lot about boxer vs MMA fighter...
Here's my problem......These MMA fighters CANNOT take a damn punch! OMG!!! If these guys were in Pro boxing you'd hear nothing except about how they have a glass chin!!!!!!
Let me put it in retrospect...You got MMA fighers who wear 4 oz gloves, and easily knock eachother out/ down with one good punch. You got Pro boxers whom are wearing 8 oz gloves (4 oz more), you don't see many KD's/ KO's in many fights where they have 2 superior boxers, blood running down there faces, black eyes, knots, eyes closing for 12 rounds (they may land 15-30 CLEAN punches) and yet...Most still don't go down/ give up.
Let's compare Arturro Gatti vs Ward fights, and then compare the main event tonight Griffen/ Evans. Gatti/ Ward fights were physichal WARS! Griffin/ Evans: You had Griffin staying back, firing, winning the fight using his height. He goes down, and Evans throws some punches at his face, and it's all over. Kidding me? What kind of fighting spirit is that???

So, again back to my point. My point is a good boxer can take LOADS more punishment than most MMA fighters. AND honestly I believe even with MMA rules a lot of boxers beat MMA fighters. Standup MMA fighters wouldn't stand a chance unless a lucky kick. Even if MMA fighter does a takedown natural instincts tells you to do a lot. I mean Vitali Klitshko vs Frank Mir at standup??? I'd venture to say Vitali/ Wladimir are way physichally stronger than him as well even if he takes them down.
Again, not raining on anybodies sports, but these china chins get on my nerves, and it seems nobody sees this cept me.

[codeman99998]

Physically stronger means nothing. Watch UFC 1 and get back to us.

[BoppaZoo]

You cant say that.

There two different sports.

Just because there both combat sports you cant say anything until it was to happen.

But could you see Lesnar vs Klitschko
or anything like that.

No Way.

They would have to fight UFC rules first then they would have to fight Boxing rules aswell 3 months later to really find out.

[cryptic]

i completely agree with the TS

[tri-pod]

do you know how many boxers would get knocked out if they fought with the 7 ounce gloves instead?

and an experienced boxer vs. an experienced mixed martial artist would probably win because the boxer isn't trained to take leg kicks elbows or knees. they wouldn't know what to do if they saw them coming.

but in a boxing match. yes the boxer would win.

the worst part about boxing is also the worst part about mma. the biased fans who try to put one over the other.

two different sports.

[Infern0]

This thread will soon degenerate into a slaging match

[Primenal]

do you know how many boxers would get knocked out if they fought with the 7 ounce gloves instead?

and an experienced boxer vs. an experienced mixed martial artist would probably win because the boxer isn't trained to take leg kicks elbows or knees. they wouldn't know what to do if they saw them coming.

but in a boxing match. yes the boxer would win.

the worst part about boxing is also the worst part about mma. the biased fans who try to put one over the other.

two different sports.

What you mean they wouldn't know what to do against leg kicks? These guys study there opponents for MONTHS! Pac vs De La Hoya...Pac knew exactly what he was going to do to De La Hoya for instance, and his gameplan went perfectly. It's because he STUIDED a tape, made his gameplan, and worked months to fights Oscar De La Hoya. If he were fighting Floyd mayweather it might be different.
What I'm trying to say...Is a boxer would watch how the UFC fighter fights!! I'm no pro boxer, no pro trainer, and used to go to an MMA gym for a while, BUT I could watch one of these guys and tell you exactly my gameplan, and how I would deal with there kicks.
You got better hands? you take a good punch? You can't kick ya say? Well, your ass needs to get on the inside, use your hands, beat him to the punch, and take his ass out! If he charges in to grab you DRILL him with a combo to stop him (including an uppercut would be nice).
Of course nothing in life works out perfectly like you thought it would, but some of the matchups you could make MMA vs Pro boxing sound REDICULOUS!

and as for the 7 oz glove question...You have somewhat of a point, but I don't believe to many fights would change. I mean chances are if you can take getting punched in the face say 20 times for say 12 rounds (220 times) I'm willing to bet your pretty used to getting HIT in general, and willing to bet you can take a punch.
You mean to tell me you think Margarito could get bombs dropped on him from Cotto for 11 rounds with 8 oz gloves...Yet some 150 pound MMA fighter with limited boxing experience would knock his ass out with 4 oz gloves? That's another thing as well. It may sound biased, but doesn't it seem like some of these boxers posess more PHYSICHAL STRENGTH? Margarito fighting at 147...Looks like he weighs 170. I'm also willing to bet any *normal* 200 pound man would have have trouble handling him. SOme MMA fighters look like they'd be the same way (could handle a much larger man), but most (to me) do not.

[Tuffnutz]

do you know how many boxers would get knocked out if they fought with the 7 ounce gloves instead?

and an experienced boxer vs. an experienced mixed martial artist would probably win because the boxer isn't trained to take leg kicks elbows or knees. they wouldn't know what to do if they saw them coming.

but in a boxing match. yes the boxer would win.

the worst part about boxing is also the worst part about mma. the biased fans who try to put one over the other.

two different sports.

UFC gloves are 4 ounce not 7.

[Primenal]

This thread will soon degenerate into a slaging match

Ha, I know! I'm not trying to flame MMA...I mean I actually watched the PPV tonight, and enjoy some of it. I just can't beleive how hard some of guys train, and they gotta be in good shape...How easily some just give up, or just get KTFO cold! Again, that isn't saying boxing is that much better cuz some people give up, and some people get KTFO cold, but just seems to me if your watching a UFC match your more likely to see it than in a boxing match.
Plus, the thing about UFC is there isn't that many fights so every fight they have are suppose to 2 top notch spectacular superstars. In boxing there's much more fights so you get lucky if you get to see 2 so called bums fight, and it turns out good...If it doesn't then you expected it to suck. Most top fights with top fighters...Usually do as well as expected.

[AJAX]

Ha, I know! I'm not trying to flame MMA...I mean I actually watched the PPV tonight, and enjoy some of it. I just can't beleive how hard some of guys train, and they gotta be in good shape...How easily some just give up, or just get KTFO cold! Again, that isn't saying boxing is that much better cuz some people give up, and some people get KTFO cold, but just seems to me if your watching a UFC match your more likely to see it than in a boxing match.
Plus, the thing about UFC is there isn't that many fights so every fight they have are suppose to 2 top notch spectacular superstars. In boxing there's much more fights so you get lucky if you get to see 2 so called bums fight, and it turns out good...If it doesn't then you expected it to suck. Most top fights with top fighters...Usually do as well as expected.

After reading your post I have come to the simple conclusion your are an idiot!:-(

[Thom]

do you know how many boxers would get knocked out if they fought with the 7 ounce gloves instead?

and an experienced boxer vs. an experienced mixed martial artist would probably win because the boxer isn't trained to take leg kicks elbows or knees. they wouldn't know what to do if they saw them coming.

but in a boxing match. yes the boxer would win.

the worst part about boxing is also the worst part about mma. the biased fans who try to put one over the other.

two different sports.


Yep, I'm really tired of hearing people spout this sort of ignorance fueled tripe over and over again.

[Koa]

Ha, I know! I'm not trying to flame MMA...I mean I actually watched the PPV tonight, and enjoy some of it. I just can't beleive how hard some of guys train, and they gotta be in good shape...How easily some just give up, or just get KTFO cold! Again, that isn't saying boxing is that much better cuz some people give up, and some people get KTFO cold, but just seems to me if your watching a UFC match your more likely to see it than in a boxing match.
Plus, the thing about UFC is there isn't that many fights so every fight they have are suppose to 2 top notch spectacular superstars. In boxing there's much more fights so you get lucky if you get to see 2 so called bums fight, and it turns out good...If it doesn't then you expected it to suck. Most top fights with top fighters...Usually do as well as expected.

How old are you? 12?

[ShadowWorks]

How old are you? 12?

In Dog years maybe.

[PUMPERG]

Mma takeover!!! Exciting fights tonight!!! What does boxing got lined up lets see next month sugar shane vs margarrito !! Shane 10 yrs past prime!! What a joke

[Primenal]

After reading your post I have come to the simple conclusion your are an idiot!:-(

Yeah, and you got your idol on your avatar I see. That's really all that needs to be said about UFC. Heavyweight champion of the world BROCK LESNAR. Dude has a few MMA fights and already champion of the world. One loss I might add out of those few fights.
How many pro boxers win the WHC within a few fights? I don't even think most WWE wrestlers are able to obtain the WHC within the first few matches they have...LOL
Again, I was trying to not make it in to a flame war. If you got a problem with the shit I say your welcome to LMK if you actually want to explain it. I explained my side with trying to not be to BIASED, and explain my opinions. Figured everybody else (those who agree, disagree, and those who don't give a shit) could voice theres.

[ufoalf]

U dont know what you're talkin about. Simple as that. Pretty much go look for similar threads because its all cut-and-paste. Your arguments are that of a 10 year old boy. You brought nothing useful.

[Griip]

Once in a while theese stupid posts come alive, always the same but with different angles. You can't compare it like this. If a boxer would fight an MMA match he wouldn't use his normal guard, or normal defence stance.

If you were to fight in MMA using a boxing guard you'd never be knocked out, never. But the thing is: In MMA you can't stand still taking punches on your gloves like boxing. In MMA when you're rushed or rushing in it has to go fast, you have to beat the other guy to the punch, blocking punches is not as easy and not used very much. And getting out of a flurry/slug fest.. woh, that's where most of the KOs come from.

[Primenal]

Once in a while theese stupid posts come alive, always the same but with different angles. You can't compare it like this. If a boxer would fight an MMA match he wouldn't use his normal guard, or normal defence stance.

If you were to fight in MMA using a boxing guard you'd never be knocked out, never. But the thing is: In MMA you can't stand still taking punches on your gloves like boxing. In MMA when you're rushed or rushing in it has to go fast, you have to beat the other guy to the punch, blocking punches is not as easy and not used very much. And getting out of a flurry/slug fest.. woh, that's where most of the KOs come from.

Wow, actually somebody who explained something, and I do agree. I think there'd be a lot less KO's if they actually just kept there hands up though, didn't swing wildly, and bring there hands back to position. A few fighters seem to do this, but overall don't do a very good job. That's why I never liked Liddell...Dude could hit, but I'll be damned if he kept his hands up (that's why he got KTFO). Very sloppy.
Also, a lot of time when they go for a kick they usually drop those hands, and there chin is definitely open. Might think I'm being a little to critical, but when you train as hard as I'm guessing they do...You should practice not dropping your hand whenever you throw something...

[Killer Instinct]

ufc=glorified wwe

[Griip]

Well it's a lot about defending takedowns and kicks, in boxing you got 2 hands to be afraid of and in MMA 2 hands, 2 feet and takedowns.. + knees

[Polymath]

shut up!

[codeman99998]

Wow, actually somebody who explained something, and I do agree. I think there'd be a lot less KO's if they actually just kept there hands up though, didn't swing wildly, and bring there hands back to position. A few fighters seem to do this, but overall don't do a very good job. That's why I never liked Liddell...Dude could hit, but I'll be damned if he kept his hands up (that's why he got KTFO). Very sloppy.
Also, a lot of time when they go for a kick they usually drop those hands, and there chin is definitely open. Might think I'm being a little to critical, but when you train as hard as I'm guessing they do...You should practice not dropping your hand whenever you throw something...

LOL! SOMEONE WHO ACTUALLY EXPLAINED SOMETHING!?

You're simply lucky he bothered to indulge your bullshit.

SHUT THE FUCK UP and go read the 1000 other pages in this forum that explain, in every minutia, the reasons that boxers cant just go to MMA and win.

Shit, the top tier KICKboxers in the world can't even go into MMA and win titles without lots of serious crosstraining.

[québecwarrior]

dumbass

[sitiyzal]

I'm starting to think all these devastating ko's from lame punches in mma are partly because of the small 4 oz gloves. Surely they can't all have such weak chins.

[Beebs]

Every boxer that enters into kickboxing competition gets beat up badly with kicks.

[Beebs]

Wow, actually somebody who explained something, and I do agree. I think there'd be a lot less KO's if they actually just kept there hands up though, didn't swing wildly, and bring there hands back to position. A few fighters seem to do this, but overall don't do a very good job. That's why I never liked Liddell...Dude could hit, but I'll be damned if he kept his hands up (that's why he got KTFO). Very sloppy.
Also, a lot of time when they go for a kick they usually drop those hands, and there chin is definitely open. Might think I'm being a little to critical, but when you train as hard as I'm guessing they do...You should practice not dropping your hand whenever you throw something...

Chuck kept his hands low so that whenever somebody shot for a takedown he would be able to use his wrestling background to sprawl and get double underhooks, it was the reason he was able to beat most people who tried to take him down.

[Primenal]

I'm starting to think all these devastating ko's from lame punches in mma are partly because of the small 4 oz gloves. Surely they can't all have such weak chins.

DON'T SAY THAT! Your gonna get called a 12 year old mental retard like I apparently am. That was exactly why I made the thread. I couldn't believe that these MMA superstars...Who are apparently in tip top shape (some of them definitely look it) getting KTFO by jabs, and shit!!
I agree with Griip, but still do believe a little of GREAT boxers have a good *chance* of beating a lot of MMA superstars with MMA rules. Good hands will win you a lot of battles, and I'm sure if any of these great boxers were to train to fight MMA for say 6 months they'd be very much ready to compete.
Anybody disagree with that statement? That in 6 months a GREAT boxer...Were talking about a prime Bernard Hopkins, RJJ, Vitali Klitshko, etc...Anybody think they STILL wouldn't stand a chance? If Kimbo gets knocked out with a jab from a no name dude that weighs 20 pounds less...I think Vitali jabs him, and paralyzes him.

[Beebs]

DON'T SAY THAT! Your gonna get called a 12 year old mental retard like I apparently am. That was exactly why I made the thread. I couldn't believe that these MMA superstars...Who are apparently in tip top shape (some of them definitely look it) getting KTFO by jabs, and shit!!
I agree with Griip, but still do believe a little of GREAT boxers have a good *chance* of beating a lot of MMA superstars with MMA rules. Good hands will win you a lot of battles, and I'm sure if any of these great boxers were to train to fight MMA for say 6 months they'd be very much ready to compete.
Anybody disagree with that statement? That in 6 months a GREAT boxer...Were talking about a prime Bernard Hopkins, RJJ, Vitali Klitshko, etc...Anybody think they STILL wouldn't stand a chance? If Kimbo gets knocked out with a jab from a no name dude that weighs 20 pounds less...I think Vitali jabs him, and paralyzes him.

Apparently you have been living in a cave, but this is not a hypothetical situation, many boxers have entered MMA, nearly without exception they have been beaten without any trouble at all.

6 months is not anywhere near enough time to stop somebody who is world class at putting people on the ground and break limbs.

[Beebs]

leBvuoDDo3U

sAIgNhVT3Zs

[sitiyzal]

Apparently you have been living in a cave, but this is not a hypothetical situation, many boxers have entered MMA, nearly without exception they have been beaten without any trouble at all.

6 months is not anywhere near enough time to stop somebody who is world class at putting people on the ground and break limbs.

Jeremy Williams is 5-0 in mma, & even he is past his best as a boxer. The problem is most boxers are already shot & aren't even willing to put in required the training for mma when they "cross over", if you can even call it that.

....why the fuck noobs keep posting Erikson-Skelton in these discussions is beyond me. It was essentially a wrestler vs kickboxer. A kickboxer who switched to boxing after that, showed no speed or talent to speak of & was nothing more than a domestic level fighter.

[Shareef]

Well the ground fighting and leg kicks the boxer woudl have no answer for those aspects of the fight or the thai clinch. But i do agree on average mma fighters cannot take a punch as good as boxers. The 4oz gloves are no doubt smaller than 8oz or 10oz pro boxing gloves, but remember this boxers sued to box with 6oz gloves for example Archie Moore vs. Rocky Marciano they wore 6oz gloves and it was a war. In older generations the fighters wore smaller gloves than today in boxing and they took better punches. But it should be expected because the premium is on punching in boxing whereas mma is well rounded so it should be expected that mma fighters would not take as good a punch as a boxer.

[MaliSlamusrex]

comparing boxing and mma is like like saying who has better accuracy a darts payer or a golf player, the only reason somone would post these comments is because they dont understand mma or boxing, or common sense.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Boxing is the most limited "fighting" sport in the world. Not only are the clearly not the best fighters, they aren't even the best strikers. That is just the reality of the situation. It is a lot easier to take punches when you are not only wearing boxing gloves... but also don't have to keep an eye out for kicks high and low, knees, elbows, clinches, takedowns, ect... You can't simply watch for punches coming at you and brace for them. Use your head.

[Primenal]

Boxing is the most limited "fighting" sport in the world. Not only are the clearly not the best fighters, they aren't even the best strikers. That is just the reality of the situation. It is a lot easier to take punches when you are not only wearing boxing gloves... but also don't have to keep an eye out for kicks high and low, knees, elbows, clinches, takedowns, ect... You can't simply watch for punches coming at you and brace for them. Use your head.

Yeah, guess watching somebodies feet, and then them cracking you with a big punch would increase the KO ratio a little bit. The punch that hurts the most is the one you don't see coming.
As for the attempt of trying to post some random crap boxer...That's not what I'm talking about. I said a GREAT boxer who's still in his prime/ close to his prime. This means like a world champion...
I guess if UFC fighters ever nearly make the $ the big time pro boxers do then we may actually get to see this one day. I think a guy who's in good shape, great chin, knows how to use his hands, and mentally tough...Could easily learn enough MMA craft (kicks, blocks, knees, etc) to beat a lot of MMA fighters.
Take one look at Lesnar! All he has is a wrestling background...No striking abilities...and he is WHC. Next your going to be see bobby Lashley hit the big times. I'm amazed 2 big goons could enter the sport with only wrestling ability (and haven't used it in years), and yet they can succeed whenever people are striking...but yet somebody who's been boxing for years couldn't possibly do well.....:nut

[Sweet Pea]

Terrible logic, but it's the same case with pretty much anyone who doesn't understand MMA or physics. I still get a laugh out of boxing fans claiming the larger the glove the more damaging the punch when it's in fact the exact opposite. MMA gloves equal a much smaller, more concentrated area of contact with less absorption in the glove itself, leading to much easier KO's, as they're far more accurate and direct on the button if landed clean.

You can't just assume everyone who fights in a particular sport has a genetically weak chin either, and I hope you don't. That is completely illogical.

Also, it's quite obvious that a boxer destroys an MMA fighter in a boxing match, and vice versa. MMA fighters stand with other MMA fighters who generally aren't supposed to have any distinct advantage in the standup department. If the opponent is clearly the better striker, the other fighter will attempt to take the fight to the ground. A boxer would obviously be too much to handle for most MMA fighters (though not the top Muay Thai fighters of kickboxers, as they have far too many effective tools for a boxer who uses only his hands) on the feet, which is why an MMA fighter wouldn't attempt to stand with them like they would another similarly-skilled MMA fighter, they'd take them right to the ground. Obviously, being a boxing fan, you don't think it would be that easy. Trust me (and it's been proven before on countless occasions, including with boxers who've tried their hand at MMA), if the boxer has no martial arts experience (primarily wrestling) outside of boxing, it is exactly that easy.

Also, as I said previously, the best standup fighters in the world aren't boxers, that title would belong to the cream of the Muay Thai and kickboxing crop. Boxers have two attack points to work with, lefty and righty, whereas the top Muay Thai fighters have 8 (hands, elbows, knees, kicks). Not to mention any clinch that would occur would greatly favor the Muay Thai fighter, as they're extremely well schooled at fighting with non-boxing techniques and using different digits (primarily the knees) from that position. Not many MMA fighters are on this level, but they are quite a few class Muay Thai stylists in MMA (Anderson Silva being one), along with skilled kickboxers.

In short, no single style is more effective than being efficient in multiple styles, because if that one style martial artist holds an edge in his department, the multi-skilled fighter can easily take him out of his game by implying a different style, one the single stylist can't cope with. This was proven in the early days of the UFC and has been proven with even greater effect since then when single style martial artists have tried to prove their hand against mixed martial artists. Maybe once in a blue moon they'll get lucky, but the majority of the time, they're just far too limited, boxers included.

[Sweet Pea]

I think a guy who's in good shape, great chin, knows how to use his hands, and mentally tough...Could easily learn enough MMA craft (kicks, blocks, knees, etc) to beat a lot of MMA fighters.
In that case, I could say a guy who's in good shape, great chin, knows how to grapple, is mentally though, etc could easily learn boxing craft to beat a lot of boxers.

In MMA you're learning multiple different styles, whereas with boxing you're only learning one your entire life. That's the main reason boxing is harder to break into or make a name for yourself in. You'd have to train at only one aspect (along with every other boxer looking to make a name for themselves or that are already at the top) consistently to make it to the top, if you had the ability in the first place. With MMA, if you have a strong background in one or two martial arts, you already have a strong base with which to pattern your MMA game around, which is generally why it doesn't take as long to break into MMA as it does boxing. You don't need to be an expert in the other disciplines, you just need to to know them well and be able to use them well to compliment your other skills. Typically grappling backgrounds are better than striking backgrounds if you're starting out in MMA though, as it's easier for a wrestler/grappler to gain the advantage over a strictly stand-up fighter by simply getting a hold of them and getting them down (once again, if the boxer has no experience in that area, it is that easy).

The reason a guy like Lesnar can make a splash like he did in MMA is because of not only his wrestling background, but because of his ridiculous physical abilities which, when combined with technique, make for a near unstoppable force to be tied up with. Not to mention he was fighting another wrestler (and a much smaller one) when he won the title from Couture. If you'll recall, Lesnar was submitted in around a minute in his first UFC appearance without the experience or BJJ skills needed.

[Calroid]

Nicely stated Sweet Pea.:good

[Coast]

I wonder if it ever occured to the TS that wearing 4 OZ gloves and being able to immediately jump on downed opponents, hold them by the throat & hit them
has a little something do do with the KO ratio in MMA?

Hell, who am I kidding? Of course it wouldn't.

[Beebs]

Yeah, guess watching somebodies feet, and then them cracking you with a big punch would increase the KO ratio a little bit. The punch that hurts the most is the one you don't see coming.
As for the attempt of trying to post some random crap boxer...That's not what I'm talking about. I said a GREAT boxer who's still in his prime/ close to his prime. This means like a world champion...
I guess if UFC fighters ever nearly make the $ the big time pro boxers do then we may actually get to see this one day. I think a guy who's in good shape, great chin, knows how to use his hands, and mentally tough...Could easily learn enough MMA craft (kicks, blocks, knees, etc) to beat a lot of MMA fighters.
Take one look at Lesnar! All he has is a wrestling background...No striking abilities...and he is WHC. Next your going to be see bobby Lashley hit the big times. I'm amazed 2 big goons could enter the sport with only wrestling ability (and haven't used it in years), and yet they can succeed whenever people are striking...but yet somebody who's been boxing for years couldn't possibly do well.....:nut

The difference being that wrestling ability is about 100% more useable; there have been a long list of champion wrestlers moving into MMA; there is no list of boxers doing it.

[Beebs]

Jeremy Williams is 5-0 in mma, & even he is past his best as a boxer. The problem is most boxers are already shot & aren't even willing to put in required the training for mma when they "cross over", if you can even call it that.

....why the fuck noobs keep posting Erikson-Skelton in these discussions is beyond me. It was essentially a wrestler vs kickboxer. A kickboxer who switched to boxing after that, showed no speed or talent to speak of & was nothing more than a domestic level fighter.

Jeremy Willams has fought guys who are 0-0 or 0-1.

Do you really think Skelton being a better boxer would have done him any fucking good at all? Do you think that it was his lack of boxing that got him tossed like a child and choked like an unruly prostitute?

[sitiyzal]

Jeremy Willams has fought guys who are 0-0 or 0-1.



Yeah, amongst other journeymen so far



Do you really think Skelton being a better boxer would have done him any fucking good at all?

:rofl....obviously.

Do you think that it was his lack of boxing that got him tossed like a child and choked like an unruly prostitute?

What? It was because he was an average kickboxer against a great wrestler....which bring us back to the question of why you keep posting that clip in a fuckin mma & boxing discussion.

[Beebs]

Yeah, amongst other journeymen so far



:rofl....obviously.



What? It was because he was an average kickboxer against a great wrestler....which bring us back to the question of why you keep posting that clip in a fuckin mma & boxing discussion.

Because Skelton obviously has the talent to be a good boxer, he obviously had at least 6 months to prepare for an Erikson who as talented as he was never really got a career going and is a part time fighter.

It is not exactly what is being discussed, but it is the closest thing in existence, and the problem has nothing to do with boxing ability, it has to do with basic physics; its about 100x more likely for a great wrestler to get a clinch on a great boxer before the boxer lands a KO punch.

Basically the boxer has one opportunity window that lasts about a half a second where the wrestler is in the middle of a takedown, unless he ends the fight, every time, right then, it is over.

When it is a fighter like a prime Nog who ate a full on headkick from CroCop and a piledriver from bob sapp, there is no opportunity whatsoever, the fight is over the second it is signed.

[Polymath]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Bokaj]

I really like UFC and probably enjoy it more than I enjoy boxing today, but their boxing skills are often quite awful. Rampage is one of the better boxers in UFC and he closed his eyes at times when throwing punches for fucks sake. This doesn't even happen in amateur boxing at a decent level. Lidell is also one of the better boxers, but the way he left himself open against Evans... Bushleague.

I've only seen three UFC fighters with decent-good boxing skills: A. Silva, Penn and The Irish Handgrenade (forgot his name) who of course is a boxer orginally. It would be nice to see more MMA-fighters with a solid boxing background.

[ufoalf]

when it is a fighter like a prime Nog who ate a full on headkick from CroCop and a piledriver from bob sapp, there is no opportunity whatsoever, the fight is over the second it is signed.

Im just waiting for another idiot to claim good boxers punch > crocop kick. I remember someone saying Mike Tyson hits twice hard than Crocop kicks :lol:

[Trevor Ross]

Mma takeover!!! Exciting fights tonight!!! What does boxing got lined up lets see next month sugar shane vs margarrito !! Shane 10 yrs past prime!! What a joke Hey! They're both awesome sports, and both Boxing and NHB have been around forever and will never die, and Boxing does not have a 3-1 rookie as their HW champ either. That's my jab back lol. Boxing can learn from the UFC's fine production, and MMA can learn from Boxing's ranking system.

[MMAFIGHTER1]

Wow thats just 2 funny 2 me well 1st of i dont think boxers can take better shots lets look at this realistically in boxing the gloves are twice as big and its just that a boxing match meaning most of the punches that land are jabs not power shots which is good 4 scoring points 2 win boxing matches. on the other hand with MMA the jab is under ultlized so most of the punches are power shots so of course your gonna take less overall shots esp with 4 ounce gloves:yikes

[Wilhelm]

DON'T SAY THAT! Your gonna get called a 12 year old mental retard like I apparently am. That was exactly why I made the thread. I couldn't believe that these MMA superstars...Who are apparently in tip top shape (some of them definitely look it) getting KTFO by jabs, and shit!!
I agree with Griip, but still do believe a little of GREAT boxers have a good *chance* of beating a lot of MMA superstars with MMA rules. Good hands will win you a lot of battles, and I'm sure if any of these great boxers were to train to fight MMA for say 6 months they'd be very much ready to compete.
Anybody disagree with that statement? That in 6 months a GREAT boxer...Were talking about a prime Bernard Hopkins, RJJ, Vitali Klitshko, etc...Anybody think they STILL wouldn't stand a chance? If Kimbo gets knocked out with a jab from a no name dude that weighs 20 pounds less...I think Vitali jabs him, and paralyzes him.

There is a very simple way for you to understand what people are trying it say here, and above and beyond this argument it would really help you enjoy MMA more. This is not flaming, this is 100% serious.

step #1: Pick a friend of yours that is into this stuff as much as you are. Go train in boxing for a week or a month or six months or whatever, and have him train in wrestling for that same amount of time.
step #2: Go to the gym or back yard or living room and have you put on some thin bag gloves (so you don't poke him in the eye or something) and have you do your boxing thing and him do his wrestling thing. If you can hurt him with punches before he gets you down, you get a point. If he takes you down before you can land a good clean punch (you don't need to go full blast, just something that would really stun someone "if you meant it") he gets a point. First to ten points wins.
step#3: Once you lose the game, try to figure out what you would do differently to give yourself a better chance next time, and think about what effects that would have on you from a boxing perspective.

You'll learn that:
-A good bit of the technical points of a "normal" boxing stance make defending takedowns a lot harder (same with leg kicks, which you would learn if you decide to go further).
-When you're thinking about someone grabbing your legs or torso to go for a takedown, your form in throwing punches will be adversely affected.
-The gross body attack of a clinch takedown or takedown from a single or double leg shot is a MUCH HIGHER PERCENTAGE ATTACK than the fine point attack of landing punches.
-The reason that top wrestlers can go into MMA and win right away and boxers can’t is because if you’re going to be really, really good at just one thing, it’s best if the one thing is the more useful and high percentage technique. Tae kwon do masters are probably the best in the world and spinning jumping hook kicks, but because they’re such a low percentage and difficult thing to do against a resisting opponent, they don’t make it anywhere in MMA. If you're into the SAT, a double leg takedown is to a right cross as a right cross is to a spinning jumping hook kick. This is not criticizing boxing, it is just COMPARING it.


Seriously, do this. It will be a lot of fun and will make watching MMA a lot more fun and will change the way you look at all combat sports. :good

[cdnboxing]

Physically stronger means nothing. Watch UFC 1 and get back to us.

Art Jimmerson isnt exactly a great example.

[cdnboxing]

And in terms of standup, I have no doubt an athletic elite boxer would destroy an MMA fighter. But thats on their feet. If the MMA fighter was smart he'd take the fight to the ground.

And for people who say oh its different a boxer would lose in MMA even on their feet need to listen to other MMA fighters like Frank Shamrock, Joe Stevenson etc who said that an elite boxer would be very difficult to handle on their feet therefore they'd acoid striking with them altogether and take them down. I think people need to look at last nights event which saw a bunch of MMA fighters beatdown K-1 level strikers. If you can honestly tell me that an elite boxer couldnt do the same than im speechless. A 40 year old Botha went into K-1 and defeated 2 top 10 HWs meanwhile he NEVER did that in boxing in HIS PRIME. There are alot of wrestlers, BJJ and mediocre boxers in MMA who can take low and body kicks no problem so I see no reason that an elite boxer couldnt do the same.

In terms of whos got the better chins etc. There are a few fighters in MMA who can take a punch. But the biggest difference is that boxers can take an accumulation of punishment throughout a fight.

If you take a look at the Mir/Nog fight, as mediocre as Mirs boxing was he would have knocked down Nog 3 times if that was a boxing rules fight. And Mir isnt exactly heavy handed.

And the way MMA fighters box would be tailor made for an elite boxer. They leave way too many openings and would be caught off balance numerous times.

Lastly, I dont think any MMA fans think MMA fighters could go toe to toe in boxing. That just would not happen and people who think so are delusional. The question is could they go toe - toe in MMA in terms of striking. Absolutely.

Did anybody watch Fight for the Troop Fight Night by the UFC, You had fighters with their chin out, swinging from their hips, it was brutal to watch. And if you watched the Silva/Rampage fight its quite evident how much Silva lacks in terms of striking ability. That guys style is just asking to be KO'd. Walks right into jabs, plods forward in straight lines, sticks his chin out, throws wide punches from his hips and NEVER throws punches in straight lines.

That guys striking is amatuerish.

[codeman99998]

And in terms of standup, I have no doubt an athletic elite boxer would destroy an MMA fighter. But thats on their feet. If the MMA fighter was smart he'd take the fight to the ground.

And for people who say oh its different a boxer would lose in MMA even on their feet need to listen to other MMA fighters like Frank Shamrock, Joe Stevenson etc who said that an elite boxer would be very difficult to handle on their feet therefore they'd acoid striking with them altogether and take them down. I think people need to look at last nights event which saw a bunch of MMA fighters beatdown K-1 level strikers. If you can honestly tell me that an elite boxer couldnt do the same than im speechless. A 40 year old Botha went into K-1 and defeated 2 top 10 HWs meanwhile he NEVER did that in boxing in HIS PRIME. There are alot of wrestlers, BJJ and mediocre boxers in MMA who can take low and body kicks no problem so I see no reason that an elite boxer couldnt do the same.

In terms of whos got the better chins etc. There are a few fighters in MMA who can take a punch. But the biggest difference is that boxers can take an accumulation of punishment throughout a fight.

If you take a look at the Mir/Nog fight, as mediocre as Mirs boxing was he would have knocked down Nog 3 times if that was a boxing rules fight. And Mir isnt exactly heavy handed.

And the way MMA fighters box would be tailor made for an elite boxer. They leave way too many openings and would be caught off balance numerous times.

Lastly, I dont think any MMA fans think MMA fighters could go toe to toe in boxing. That just would not happen and people who think so are delusional. The question is could they go toe - toe in MMA in terms of striking. Absolutely.

Did anybody watch Fight for the Troop Fight Night by the UFC, You had fighters with their chin out, swinging from their hips, it was brutal to watch. And if you watched the Silva/Rampage fight its quite evident how much Silva lacks in terms of striking ability. That guys style is just asking to be KO'd. Walks right into jabs, plods forward in straight lines, sticks his chin out, throws wide punches from his hips and NEVER throws punches in straight lines.

That guys striking is amatuerish.

You put a boxer in with Anderson Silva in an MMA match and Silva wins the standup. You put a guy in with Antoni Hardonk in an MMA match and Hardonk wins the standup. Same with prime crocop and others.

Boxers don't know how to kick...

[cdnboxing]

Wow thats just 2 funny 2 me well 1st of i dont think boxers can take better shots lets look at this realistically in boxing the gloves are twice as big and its just that a boxing match meaning most of the punches that land are jabs not power shots which is good 4 scoring points 2 win boxing matches. on the other hand with MMA the jab is under ultlized so most of the punches are power shots so of course your gonna take less overall shots esp with 4 ounce gloves:yikes

Actually the jab is utilized quite a bit in MMA especially as of late. Penn beat Sherk with it.

Jabs arent so much about scoring points but rather keeping your distance between your opponent. A jab is an extremely important weapon.

And you dont have to have a great chin to be good in MMA. Hell, you cna be fighting at a high level and never have had your chin tested. In boxing thats impossible, its tested early and if you dont have a chin you wont have a career.

And with MMA and boxing the ranges are different, and boxers for the most part sit down on their punches which allow them to generate more power. Even Frank Shamrock was saying something along these lines and he said the boxing ability in MMA is still terrible. MMA still has alot of people who punch with their arms and not their whole body.

And people have to remember thats it often not how hard the punch is that KO people, its the punches that fighters dont see coming.

In that case its a CHIN issue but rather a skill issue. So if you're seeing multiple KO's on a UFC main card it might be more attributable to their striking ability than their chins. Silva and Nog were vulnerable all night and the punches they got caught with they didnt even see coming.

Thats a problem.

[cdnboxing]

You put a boxer in with Anderson Silva in an MMA match and Silva wins the standup. You put a guy in with Antoni Hardonk in an MMA match and Hardonk wins the standup. Same with prime crocop and others.

Boxers don't know how to kick...

You dont have to know how to kick.

[codeman99998]

You dont have to know how to kick.


Type in "boxer versus kickboxer" on youtube.

This one is nice [Only registered and activated users can see links] .

[chuffy]

Type in "boxer versus kickboxer" on youtube.

This one is nice [Only registered and activated users can see links] .


Codeman, that reminded me of this ...

lXgspempESU

[ufoalf]

You dont have to know how to kick.


:rofl
Watch above. CDNboxing, its unfortunate that you're convinced you know a lot instead of having an open mind. Very unfortunate. But all evidence will not favor boxer in stand up. Boxing excel at boxing, no one can take that away from them. If its a stand up fight using only ur hands and you can't clinch, boxers will win almost every time except one of those freak KOs. If you put a boxer in a full contact stand up fight, he's gona have to be carried off the ring with broken legs. It is what it is.

As much as you think you know about boxing. You know nothing about anything else it seems but you fake it well. I absolutely agree with you that you do not have to know how to kick. Hell, you don't need to know how to box or wrestle either. Just get a desk job.

If you wanna do MMA combat, you gona have to learn how to kick, box, and grapple. The overwhelming evidence shows that excelling at grappling takes you much farther in the sport of MMA. But to be top MMA fighter you will need all the factors at high level.

[sitiyzal]

Type in "boxer versus kickboxer" on youtube.

This one is nice [Only registered and activated users can see links] .

another retarded example.

[El Puma]

This fooking thread and topic sucks and is getting tiresome. Lets go do some Rugby-American football comparisons then.

[AJAX]

Everytime some chump starts a thread like this on the boxing side they always put it on this side as if anybody wants it around here.

[Hermit]

i completely agree with the TS

The 'uneducated' circle the wagons....:lol:

[Hermit]

After reading your post I have come to the simple conclusion your are an idiot!:-(

Yeah. What is a clinch but two guys hugging to stall. In MMA, that doesn't stop the action. Just like in a real fight. What a concept. A real fight. Either you understand, or you don't. That is the origin of MMA. Find out what works, what doesn't.

[Hermit]

Once in a while theese stupid posts come alive, always the same but with different angles. You can't compare it like this. If a boxer would fight an MMA match he wouldn't use his normal guard, or normal defence stance.

My son was telling me he read an article about an MMA fighter taking a fight that allowed groin kicks. COMPLETELY changed what he had to do. Yeah. Boxing is the ULTIMATE in a street fight....:rofl

[Cobra33]

I've been hit by both gloves and i have to be honest:The MMA gloves will cause more cuts/bruises but the boxing gloves hurt more.Boxing gloves were designed to protect the hands and nothing else.Get hit by a pair of Reyes 12oz and tell me it doesn't hurt.

[codeman99998]

I've been hit by both gloves and i have to be honest:The MMA gloves will cause more cuts/bruises but the boxing gloves hurt more.Boxing gloves were designed to protect the hands and nothing else.Get hit by a pair of Reyes 12oz and tell me it doesn't hurt.

That makes no sense at all.

Yes, getting hit by someone wearing boxing gloves does hurt. The physics, however, do not agree with the assumption that it is easier to KO someone with boxing gloves on. Boxing gloves are much bigger, and therefore spread the force of the impact over a greater area, making it more difficult to KO your opponent.

Also, it is harder to get a KO with boxing gloves because the size of the gloves make it more difficult to land an extremely clean punch. The size of the glove also facilitates a lot more blocking and partial blocking.

[codeman99998]

This video was posted in the boxing forum:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Do you notice that in the STREET FIGHT situation, Ali-Frazier and Rahman-Lewis IMMEDIATELY went into clinch situations. Without a referee, Lewis and Rahman were fucking WRESTLING each other and these are UPPER UPPER echelon boxers.

[Cobra33]

you can't hit as hard with 4oz.You will mess up your hands.Again boxing gloves are met to protect the hands therefore you can throw as hard as you want because padding is protecting your hands.
plus you ever seen boxers who get there hands wrapped before pro fights?Hard as a rock.

[codeman99998]

you can't hit as hard with 4oz.You will mess up your hands.Again boxing gloves are met to protect the hands therefore you can throw as hard as you want because padding is protecting your hands.
plus you ever seen boxers who get there hands wrapped before pro fights?Hard as a rock.

And that same padding doesnt protect the other dude's face?

[AJAX]

And that same padding doesnt protect the other dude's face?

haha you beat me too it this fellow seems to be a bit dilusional.

[Cobra33]

The padding protects the fighter's hand-it doesn't protect his head from the FORCE of the blow.You ever felt Reyes gloves?There freakin hard.
Why doesn't boxing use 4 oz gloves?It would destroy the fighters hands easily.Go hit a heavybag with 4oz gloves for a lengthy duration and your hands will be done.

[Primenal]

Type in "boxer versus kickboxer" on youtube.

This one is nice [Only registered and activated users can see links] .

LMAO! I don't want to be completely biased to MMA (again, as I stil watch it a bit), but would people STOP with these dumbass examples? Who the hell is that black guy? He isn't even in good shape! I got this video, and a video of BUTTERBEAN! :rofl:rofl
I'm not talking about Butterbean. I'm talking about a prime Mike Tyson, Pac, Mayweather, etc vs an MMA figher.
Alright, let's say Prime Tyson vs a crappy 220 pd UFC fighter. You don't think he stands a chance? An aggressive, but evasive pitbull like Tyson couldn't beat a crappy UFC fighter? Not only will I say that at standup (meaning kicks allowed) Tyson would kill a crappy UFC fighter...I guarantee if they'd take Tyson to the ground (any man his size) Tyson would overpower them, and give them some ground and pound! A prime 220 pound Tyson..I'm willing to bet nobody in UFC at 220 would be as physichally as strong.

I went to a MMA gym for about 3 months. The dudes were in great shape, *some* were decent fighters. I'm about 5'6 165 right now. I've lifted weights for years, and boxed for a while. NEVER wrestled in my life! I got to roll with people around my weight (155-180) who fight cage fights, and have for years, and these guys were as strong as small children to me. One guy tried to put me in a triangle, and I just pick him up and powerbomb him. Another guy tried some kind of armlock..Had both hands on my one arm, and still couldn't move it.
My point is some of these guys are in great shape (they were over there), but they lack strength. I don't give a shit what moves you know...If your doing them on somebody who's twice as powerful I bet 9/10 times you won't get them on him!

So, really about the only arguments you guys got that boxers couldn't stop/ have answers for would be leg kicks. Hands the boxer wins no matter what gloves. Movement the boxer wins. Wrestling it depends on the individuals (Again, no MMA fighter would be able to wrestle a boxer who's much stronger), Kicks the MMA fighter obviously wins (kicks to the head wouldn't work though as the boxer has a high guard).
Basically, I don't see why an aggressive, strong boxer (not a counter puncher, not a defensive master, not butterbean!) would have much trouble. Just jump on the MMA guy, and knock him out (You might take a leg kick in the process).

[Hermit]

LMAO! I don't want to be completely biased to MMA (again, as I stil watch it a bit), but would people STOP with these dumbass examples? Who the hell is that black guy? He isn't even in good shape! I got this video, and a video of BUTTERBEAN! :rofl:rofl
I'm not talking about Butterbean. I'm talking about a prime Mike Tyson, Pac, Mayweather, etc vs an MMA figher.
Alright, let's say Prime Tyson vs a crappy 220 pd UFC fighter. You don't think he stands a chance? An aggressive, but evasive pitbull like Tyson couldn't beat a crappy UFC fighter? Not only will I say that at standup (meaning kicks allowed) Tyson would kill a crappy UFC fighter...I guarantee if they'd take Tyson to the ground (any man his size) Tyson would overpower them, and give them some ground and pound! A prime 220 pound Tyson..I'm willing to bet nobody in UFC at 220 would be as physichally as strong.

I went to a MMA gym for about 3 months. The dudes were in great shape, *some* were decent fighters. I'm about 5'6 165 right now. I've lifted weights for years, and boxed for a while. NEVER wrestled in my life! I got to roll with people around my weight (155-180) who fight cage fights, and have for years, and these guys were as strong as small children to me. One guy tried to put me in a triangle, and I just pick him up and powerbomb him. Another guy tried some kind of armlock..Had both hands on my one arm, and still couldn't move it.
My point is some of these guys are in great shape (they were over there), but they lack strength. I don't give a shit what moves you know...If your doing them on somebody who's twice as powerful I bet 9/10 times you won't get them on him!

Quit you day job. You have a bright future against all the stiffs in MMA. :rofl

[Primenal]

Quit you day job. You have a bright future against all the stiffs in MMA. :rofl

I thought so to when I was training for it ;). The wrestling was pretty fun...At least when your the much stronger guy, but my god I was just sore as hell all the time. Never wanted to fight MMA...Just wanted to fight at the time, and that's the only reason I joined ;)
They never taught me jack shit over there though. Wasn't a class...More of a place to fight. That's why I had to powerbomb, and bodyslam people LOL.
Actually got to give the place credit though as they taught me how to get great conditioning, and am in a lot better shape because of it.
So, I don't dislike MMA. I just dislike a lot of people in it. Seems like a lot of guys who think there tough, and..There really not. Kimbo Slice is the perfect example. Having Lesnar as UFC champ isn't saying much either. Not taking anything away from Lesnar as he's so big and powerful hard for anybody to deal with. I just think after 3 fights (NO matter how famous he is) he shouldn't have a shot at the world title.....Doesn't say much for your sport.

[Hermit]

I thought so to when I was training for it ;). The wrestling was pretty fun...At least when your the much stronger guy, but my god I was just sore as hell all the time. Never wanted to fight MMA...Just wanted to fight at the time, and that's the only reason I joined ;)
They never taught me jack shit over there though. Wasn't a class...More of a place to fight. That's why I had to powerbomb, and bodyslam people LOL.
Actually got to give the place credit though as they taught me how to get great conditioning, and am in a lot better shape because of it.
So, I don't dislike MMA. I just dislike a lot of people in it. Seems like a lot of guys who think there tough, and..There really not. Kimbo Slice is the perfect example. Having Lesnar as UFC champ isn't saying much either. Not taking anything away from Lesnar as he's so big and powerful hard for anybody to deal with. I just think after 3 fights (NO matter how famous he is) he shouldn't have a shot at the world title.....Doesn't say much for your sport.

You sound young and are making some mistakes accordingly. You are using your limited experience at one gym, which by your own admission isn't very good, as a standard. Check out bullshido.com? Very interesting stuff on how to evaluate a gym.

Second, the UFC is NOT MMA. Lesnar was given the shot because they wanted to kill any chance of success that a fight between Coture? and Fedor might have. Plus, think Lockett and Pavlik. The ABC's of boxing are just as corrupt as the UFC when it comes to title shots. :deal

At this point the talent in boxing may be deeper because of the money and longevity, but that looks like it will change. Also, from what I can see, there are many more mma training sites than boxing sites popping up. Also, in my area, there are a lot more events. It is growing quite rapidly. Pavlik is the local boy, but interest in boxing isn't really piquing that much other than his career.

The real question for your conjecture though, if you take Mike Tyson's lost twin brother and train him in MMA and put him up against Mike, who wins? I say the guy with the most tools in his bag is most likely to take it.

[codeman99998]

LMAO! I don't want to be completely biased to MMA (again, as I stil watch it a bit), but would people STOP with these dumbass examples? Who the hell is that black guy? He isn't even in good shape! I got this video, and a video of BUTTERBEAN! :rofl:rofl
I'm not talking about Butterbean. I'm talking about a prime Mike Tyson, Pac, Mayweather, etc vs an MMA figher.
Alright, let's say Prime Tyson vs a crappy 220 pd UFC fighter. You don't think he stands a chance? An aggressive, but evasive pitbull like Tyson couldn't beat a crappy UFC fighter? Not only will I say that at standup (meaning kicks allowed) Tyson would kill a crappy UFC fighter...I guarantee if they'd take Tyson to the ground (any man his size) Tyson would overpower them, and give them some ground and pound! A prime 220 pound Tyson..I'm willing to bet nobody in UFC at 220 would be as physichally as strong.

I went to a MMA gym for about 3 months. The dudes were in great shape, *some* were decent fighters. I'm about 5'6 165 right now. I've lifted weights for years, and boxed for a while. NEVER wrestled in my life! I got to roll with people around my weight (155-180) who fight cage fights, and have for years, and these guys were as strong as small children to me. One guy tried to put me in a triangle, and I just pick him up and powerbomb him. Another guy tried some kind of armlock..Had both hands on my one arm, and still couldn't move it.
My point is some of these guys are in great shape (they were over there), but they lack strength. I don't give a shit what moves you know...If your doing them on somebody who's twice as powerful I bet 9/10 times you won't get them on him!

So, really about the only arguments you guys got that boxers couldn't stop/ have answers for would be leg kicks. Hands the boxer wins no matter what gloves. Movement the boxer wins. Wrestling it depends on the individuals (Again, no MMA fighter would be able to wrestle a boxer who's much stronger), Kicks the MMA fighter obviously wins (kicks to the head wouldn't work though as the boxer has a high guard).
Basically, I don't see why an aggressive, strong boxer (not a counter puncher, not a defensive master, not butterbean!) would have much trouble. Just jump on the MMA guy, and knock him out (You might take a leg kick in the process).

Arthur Williams is a former IBF cruiserweight champion, he may not be a prime Mike Tyson, but he is a legit boxer.

You are right though. Tyson is a strong dude. There is no reason that a NCAA collegiate wrestling champion or an olympic medalist wrestler would be able to take him down and hold him down.

Amateur wrestling experience means NOTHING. Everyone knows Tyson was so strong that no one could take him down. Sure, we never got the chance to ever see how he could handle a takedown attempt from a cream of the crop, prime, excellent, olympic caliber wrestler (you know, a guy who has devoted his whole life to taking people down and keeping them down.) but we all DO know Tyson is strong. Of course he could resist it.

And, as we all know, Tyson won all of his fights by first round KO. Tyson didn't just win by first round KO. but FIRST PUNCH KO every fight. If Tyson lands one punch on anybody it is lights out! Nobody has ever beaten Tyson in a boxing match, and nobody has ever even hurt him. Nobody can take one punch from Tyson without tasting the canvass.

Normally a punch from Mike Tyson will KILL YOU.

Tyson eats leg kicks for breakfast. Sure, we never saw him ever take one. Sure, every single other time that someone faces a fighter with great leg kicks who has no idea how to defend them they end up fucked up. BUT BOXERS CAN'T BE HURT BY LEG KICKS LIKE NORMAL PEOPLE CAN! BOXERS ARE FUCKING GODS WHO ARE IMMUNE TO THE THINGS THAT MOST HUMAN BEINGS CAN BE FUCKED UP BY!

MMA fighters are just humans, and can be beat by human methods. Mike Tyson comes straight from the jizzum of Zeus himself and cannot possibly be beaten by the proven techniques of MMA fighters.

I stand fucking corrected.

[Primenal]

LMAO. Your sarcasm is quite skilled codeman, but you did take my post a little out of context. I said Mike Tyson vs a MMA *bum* at his weight! I didn't say Mike Tyson vs Olympic gold medalist, or NCAA Champion. I didn't even say Mike Tyson vs Brock Lesnar because he's much bigger, and more powerful.
And yes leg kicks can mess ya up no doubt! Even an animal like Tyson couldn't take many since he doesn't know how to defend. Like I said though if all he had to take was 1 or so, and with his aggression/ strength, PLUS 4 oz gloves you don't think he knocks out 50% of MMA guys quick enough to not take to much damage???

Hermit: I agree I make mistakes accordingly. I've boxed, and lifted for a while. Never sparred that much (not many boxing gyms around here), so found a MMA gym with a lot of guys, and just wanted to fight. It wasn't a great gym to learn from, but a great gym for me to spar at. As for boxing I completley agree...It's 10x more corrupt than MMA/ UFC...whatever you want to refer it to. That doesn't change the fact that a man with 3 fights (1 of which was a loss anyways) is now the HW champ, and a lot of hardcore MMA fans hate Brock Lesnar anyways as it makes there sport look like anybody can do it.
Also, as for the strength factor, and me saying somebody like Tyson overpowers basically any guy roughly his size in mma (no matter what they know). Look no further than Brock Lesnar to prove my point. The guy is freakin HORRIBLE. Honestly I don't even know how he won a NCAA championship, and can't believe he trains in any combat really! He picks up a guy, throws him down, and beats him on the top of the head with arm punches! I think if he gave the guy a noogie (sp) it'd hurt worse than his punches. He should have finished couture off easily. Why does he win, and look unbeatable though right now? Simply cuz nobody can overpower the dude unless there skill set is amazing. Of course Tyson doesn't have the wrestling background that Brock has (although I really can't believe it's the same guy!) naturally your body wants to grab, and wrestle (unless you train for something else), and natural instincts (SURVIVAL INSTINCTS) on top of Mike Tyson's power would be enough for him to get out of a lot of shit.

[Wilhelm]

LMAO! I don't want to be completely biased to MMA (again, as I stil watch it a bit), but would people STOP with these dumbass examples? Who the hell is that black guy? He isn't even in good shape! I got this video, and a video of BUTTERBEAN! :rofl:rofl
I'm not talking about Butterbean. I'm talking about a prime Mike Tyson, Pac, Mayweather, etc vs an MMA figher.
Alright, let's say Prime Tyson vs a crappy 220 pd UFC fighter. You don't think he stands a chance? An aggressive, but evasive pitbull like Tyson couldn't beat a crappy UFC fighter? Not only will I say that at standup (meaning kicks allowed) Tyson would kill a crappy UFC fighter...I guarantee if they'd take Tyson to the ground (any man his size) Tyson would overpower them, and give them some ground and pound! A prime 220 pound Tyson..I'm willing to bet nobody in UFC at 220 would be as physichally as strong.

I went to a MMA gym for about 3 months. The dudes were in great shape, *some* were decent fighters. I'm about 5'6 165 right now. I've lifted weights for years, and boxed for a while. NEVER wrestled in my life! I got to roll with people around my weight (155-180) who fight cage fights, and have for years, and these guys were as strong as small children to me. One guy tried to put me in a triangle, and I just pick him up and powerbomb him. Another guy tried some kind of armlock..Had both hands on my one arm, and still couldn't move it.
My point is some of these guys are in great shape (they were over there), but they lack strength. I don't give a shit what moves you know...If your doing them on somebody who's twice as powerful I bet 9/10 times you won't get them on him!

So, really about the only arguments you guys got that boxers couldn't stop/ have answers for would be leg kicks. Hands the boxer wins no matter what gloves. Movement the boxer wins. Wrestling it depends on the individuals (Again, no MMA fighter would be able to wrestle a boxer who's much stronger), Kicks the MMA fighter obviously wins (kicks to the head wouldn't work though as the boxer has a high guard).
Basically, I don't see why an aggressive, strong boxer (not a counter puncher, not a defensive master, not butterbean!) would have much trouble. Just jump on the MMA guy, and knock him out (You might take a leg kick in the process).

So we're to assume that because of your experience in a lousy gym and that fact that you (for some reason) consider Mike Tyson to be to "strong" to wrestle, any MMA event where a smaller fighter beat much larger and stronger ones on the ground (early UFCs? Royce Gracie?) is meaningless? Come on.

Also, why does it that only a great boxer (which you're almost defining as one who hasn't done MMA or kickboxing and ever will) counts in your comparison? Why not a mediocore boxer vs. a mediocore wrestler or kickboxer? At what point in their boxing career do the become too quick and strong so that no wrestler can ever take them down and no kickboxer could ever kick them? Like I told the TS, wrestling is a much more high percentage move than punching, so if you're going to be really good at one thing, it's better to be good at that. That is not an insult to boxing as a sport of as self defense, it's just an obvious analysis of what MMA has been displaying for years.

[Spunik]

LMAO. Your sarcasm is quite skilled codeman, but you did take my post a little out of context. I said Mike Tyson vs a MMA *bum* at his weight! I didn't say Mike Tyson vs Olympic gold medalist, or NCAA Champion. I didn't even say Mike Tyson vs Brock Lesnar because he's much bigger, and more powerful.
And yes leg kicks can mess ya up no doubt! Even an animal like Tyson couldn't take many since he doesn't know how to defend. Like I said though if all he had to take was 1 or so, and with his aggression/ strength, PLUS 4 oz gloves you don't think he knocks out 50% of MMA guys quick enough to not take to much damage???

Hermit: I agree I make mistakes accordingly. I've boxed, and lifted for a while. Never sparred that much (not many boxing gyms around here), so found a MMA gym with a lot of guys, and just wanted to fight. It wasn't a great gym to learn from, but a great gym for me to spar at. As for boxing I completley agree...It's 10x more corrupt than MMA/ UFC...whatever you want to refer it to. That doesn't change the fact that a man with 3 fights (1 of which was a loss anyways) is now the HW champ, and a lot of hardcore MMA fans hate Brock Lesnar anyways as it makes there sport look like anybody can do it.
Also, as for the strength factor, and me saying somebody like Tyson overpowers basically any guy roughly his size in mma (no matter what they know). Look no further than Brock Lesnar to prove my point. The guy is freakin HORRIBLE. Honestly I don't even know how he won a NCAA championship, and can't believe he trains in any combat really! He picks up a guy, throws him down, and beats him on the top of the head with arm punches! I think if he gave the guy a noogie (sp) it'd hurt worse than his punches. He should have finished couture off easily. Why does he win, and look unbeatable though right now? Simply cuz nobody can overpower the dude unless there skill set is amazing. Of course Tyson doesn't have the wrestling background that Brock has (although I really can't believe it's the same guy!) naturally your body wants to grab, and wrestle (unless you train for something else), and natural instincts (SURVIVAL INSTINCTS) on top of Mike Tyson's power would be enough for him to get out of a lot of shit.


u should apply to be on the Ultimate Fighter...

[Cobra33]

The iceman never wrestled and he was succesful in MMA.

[Dostoevsky]

The iceman never wrestled and he was succesful in MMA.

Ho fucking ho, you just exposed yourself as not knowing what the fuck you're talking about. :deal

[Beebs]

The iceman never wrestled and he was succesful in MMA.

He was the catian of the cal poly wrestling team. Know what the fuck you are talking about or shut the duck up

[Dostoevsky]

"shut the duck up"

:rofl :rofl

[Beebs]

Anybody who thinks tyson could grapple a bantamweight let alone somebody in his weight class is an idiot. Strength only comes I to play of the skill is similar, which it absolutely is not. Tyson isn't even all that strong, nowhere near as strong as even lightheayweight like rampage.

Miguel torres would sub tyson in under a minute on the ground

[Beebs]

"shut the duck up"

:rofl :rofl

These damn iPhone keys

[Primenal]

Anybody who thinks tyson could grapple a bantamweight let alone somebody in his weight class is an idiot. Strength only comes I to play of the skill is similar, which it absolutely is not. Tyson isn't even all that strong, nowhere near as strong as even lightheayweight like rampage.

Miguel torres would sub tyson in under a minute on the ground

Strength, and size doesn't matter? What ya talking about? If that were the case why does boxing have weight divisions? Why does UFC even have weight divisions? a bantamweight UFC outgrapples Tyson? Yeah, I'm sure he knows more moves, but somebody much bigger would just pick up the little guy, and snap him in half like a twig.
I remember there was a story with an old time bodybuilder being at a party. A guy who was very skilled in martial arts (much smaller) tries to pick a fight with him. He picks up the guy, and throws him down a flight of steps!
I do agree experience, knowledge, etc are more important than size/ strength, BUT there is a certain point trying to grapple somebody is MEANINGLESS! I consider myself very strong for 165 (I keep up with most 200 pounders at the gym for strength)...YET, if I had a 250 pd muscle man about to attack me I'm NOT grabbing the guy! I'm going to try to destroy him before he touches me, and if he does get ahold of me...Eyes, throat, balls! I'm not gonna try to wrestle around with him on the ground, and put him in a leg lock. Probably cuz 9/10 times I SIMPLY CANT!
I know my limitations...Much like how UFC fighters have theres!

[rusty nails]

What you mean they wouldn't know what to do against leg kicks? These guys study there opponents for MONTHS! Pac vs De La Hoya...Pac knew exactly what he was going to do to De La Hoya for instance, and his gameplan went perfectly. It's because he STUIDED a tape, made his gameplan, and worked months to fights Oscar De La Hoya. If he were fighting Floyd mayweather it might be different.
What I'm trying to say...Is a boxer would watch how the UFC fighter fights!! I'm no pro boxer, no pro trainer, and used to go to an MMA gym for a while, BUT I could watch one of these guys and tell you exactly my gameplan, and how I would deal with there kicks.
You got better hands? you take a good punch? You can't kick ya say? Well, your ass needs to get on the inside, use your hands, beat him to the punch, and take his ass out! If he charges in to grab you DRILL him with a combo to stop him (including an uppercut would be nice).
Of course nothing in life works out perfectly like you thought it would, but some of the matchups you could make MMA vs Pro boxing sound REDICULOUS!

and as for the 7 oz glove question...You have somewhat of a point, but I don't believe to many fights would change. I mean chances are if you can take getting punched in the face say 20 times for say 12 rounds (220 times) I'm willing to bet your pretty used to getting HIT in general, and willing to bet you can take a punch.
You mean to tell me you think Margarito could get bombs dropped on him from Cotto for 11 rounds with 8 oz gloves...Yet some 150 pound MMA fighter with limited boxing experience would knock his ass out with 4 oz gloves? That's another thing as well. It may sound biased, but doesn't it seem like some of these boxers posess more PHYSICHAL STRENGTH? Margarito fighting at 147...Looks like he weighs 170. I'm also willing to bet any *normal* 200 pound man would have have trouble handling him. SOme MMA fighters look like they'd be the same way (could handle a much larger man), but most (to me) do not.

your baiting arent you?... you must be???.. if not your absolutely kidding yourself..

[codeman99998]

Strength, and size doesn't matter? What ya talking about? If that were the case why does boxing have weight divisions? Why does UFC even have weight divisions? a bantamweight UFC outgrapples Tyson? Yeah, I'm sure he knows more moves, but somebody much bigger would just pick up the little guy, and snap him in half like a twig.
I remember there was a story with an old time bodybuilder being at a party. A guy who was very skilled in martial arts (much smaller) tries to pick a fight with him. He picks up the guy, and throws him down a flight of steps!
I do agree experience, knowledge, etc are more important than size/ strength, BUT there is a certain point trying to grapple somebody is MEANINGLESS! I consider myself very strong for 165 (I keep up with most 200 pounders at the gym for strength)...YET, if I had a 250 pd muscle man about to attack me I'm NOT grabbing the guy! I'm going to try to destroy him before he touches me, and if he does get ahold of me...Eyes, throat, balls! I'm not gonna try to wrestle around with him on the ground, and put him in a leg lock. Probably cuz 9/10 times I SIMPLY CANT!
I know my limitations...Much like how UFC fighters have theres!

Interesting viewpoint...

Hmm.. go watch UFC 1-4.

BJJ is specifically designed so smaller weaker opponents can beat bigger stronger opponents.

[Beebs]

Strength, and size doesn't matter? What ya talking about? If that were the case why does boxing have weight divisions? Why does UFC even have weight divisions? a bantamweight UFC outgrapples Tyson? Yeah, I'm sure he knows more moves, but somebody much bigger would just pick up the little guy, and snap him in half like a twig.
I remember there was a story with an old time bodybuilder being at a party. A guy who was very skilled in martial arts (much smaller) tries to pick a fight with him. He picks up the guy, and throws him down a flight of steps!
I do agree experience, knowledge, etc are more important than size/ strength, BUT there is a certain point trying to grapple somebody is MEANINGLESS! I consider myself very strong for 165 (I keep up with most 200 pounders at the gym for strength)...YET, if I had a 250 pd muscle man about to attack me I'm NOT grabbing the guy! I'm going to try to destroy him before he touches me, and if he does get ahold of me...Eyes, throat, balls! I'm not gonna try to wrestle around with him on the ground, and put him in a leg lock. Probably cuz 9/10 times I SIMPLY CANT!
I know my limitations...Much like how UFC fighters have theres!

Where the fuck did I say it doesn't matter? I said that given one is skilled and the other is a fucking nobody, it is easy to overcome.

Bob Sapp is about twice as strong as Tyson, Nog subbed him, and Fujita kicked his head into the second row.

Marcello Garcia has run through grappling positions in the absolute division against guys with 100 pounds on him, and those guys are world class grapplers.

MwticniZV4M
And Sapp is much stronger than Tyson and 1000000% more skilled of a grappler.

It's simple, just look at any grappling tourney; the winner of the absolute division is usually not the HW winner, and those guys are world class grapplers, Tyson doesn't know a wristlock from a wristwatch.

135lb Miguel Torres could kill, literally, Tyson in grappling, he could easily get a choke and not let go.

The average blue belt in bjj would easily submit Tyson in grappling.

I've seen so many juiced up former football players, bodybuilders, "tough guys", and even wrestlers who know grappling somewhat, get absolutely destroyed on the mat by people they outweigh by 50+ pounds. Size matters, but only if the two fighters are comparable in skill.

And stop with this "from my experience" bullshit, you have never stepped foot in a real gym, and you have never won a fight, so shut the fuck up idiot.

[Primenal]

Where the fuck did I say it doesn't matter? I said that given one is skilled and the other is a fucking nobody, it is easy to overcome.

Bob Sapp is about twice as strong as Tyson, Nog subbed him, and Fujita kicked his head into the second row.

Marcello Garcia has run through grappling positions in the absolute division against guys with 100 pounds on him, and those guys are world class grapplers.

MwticniZV4M
And Sapp is much stronger than Tyson and 1000000% more skilled of a grappler.

It's simple, just look at any grappling tourney; the winner of the absolute division is usually not the HW winner, and those guys are world class grapplers, Tyson doesn't know a wristlock from a wristwatch.

135lb Miguel Torres could kill, literally, Tyson in grappling, he could easily get a choke and not let go.

The average blue belt in bjj would easily submit Tyson in grappling.

I've seen so many juiced up former football players, bodybuilders, "tough guys", and even wrestlers who know grappling somewhat, get absolutely destroyed on the mat by people they outweigh by 50+ pounds. Size matters, but only if the two fighters are comparable in skill.

And stop with this "from my experience" bullshit, you have never stepped foot in a real gym, and you have never won a fight, so shut the fuck up idiot.

Bob Sapp is a disgrace! I was using Tyson vs highly unskilled fighter as an example because that's what you guys keep posting. Your like..MMA fighter beats a boxer...Check out this video of the highly skilled, intense machine....BUTTERBEAN! Watch him get his little stubby legs kicked off by somebody he shouldn't be in the ring with! Your guys examples are just as weak as me saying Tyson vs sucky mma fighter.
I was using it to say a boxer could win a MMA match (it isn't impossible). I'm sure an elite MMA guy with good hands could beat the crappiest pro boxers as well. I do agree you put an elite Tyson vs any MMA (UFC whatever you want to use) elite he loses quite badly in an MMA match!

[Beebs]

Bob Sapp is a disgrace! I was using Tyson vs highly unskilled fighter as an example because that's what you guys keep posting. Your like..MMA fighter beats a boxer...Check out this video of the highly skilled, intense machine....BUTTERBEAN! Watch him get his little stubby legs kicked off by somebody he shouldn't be in the ring with! Your guys examples are just as weak as me saying Tyson vs sucky mma fighter.
I was using it to say a boxer could win a MMA match (it isn't impossible). I'm sure an elite MMA guy with good hands could beat the crappiest pro boxers as well. I do agree you put an elite Tyson vs any MMA (UFC whatever you want to use) elite he loses quite badly in an MMA match!

I was talking about once the fight hit the ground, the premis was that tyson would be to strong to grapple, not that he could never win an mma fight, just that even the smallest skilled grappler would run through him like a hot knife through butter if the fight went to the ground.

[Primenal]

I was talking about once the fight hit the ground, the premis was that tyson would be to strong to grapple, not that he could never win an mma fight, just that even the smallest skilled grappler would run through him like a hot knife through butter if the fight went to the ground.

I dunno about all that really. You seriously think say a 120-130 pd man is going to choke out a 230 pd man? I know in heavyweight you get shit like all the time (a person weighing 100 more pds submitting another), but it's kind of different at heavyweight in all sports. Seems like smaller divisions are more skilled, quicker, and there seems to be a big difference between sizes. As for heavyweight..There less skilled usually, some are simply overweight slow slobs, and seems like any guy who weighs over 220 (that's in good shape at least) is quite powerful. In boxing somebody like Tyson, Ali beat a lot of people bigger than them. In MMA it's the same way.
The saying is never more true though "A good big guy beats a good small guy." Bob Sapp is a crappy big guy. Valuev is a crappy big guy. You can't rate performances by these guys.
And yes I'm sure Tyson doesn't have grappling experience. He has plenty of street fighting experience, and I'm sure all those fights weren't on his feet. Like I said strong, in his prime, and even if some 130 pounder does get him down (not sure how), but that little dude better be badass, and jump him quick to keep him down. I just don't see it happening unless there one of the absolute BEST IN THE WORLD!
Like I said most of these fights where an MMA elite taps out a giant..The giant is HORRIBLE. They all have huge flaws. There uncoordinated, they lack heart, aggression, skill, stamina, etc. I don't think I've ever seen a fight in any sport where 2 people were about evenly matched...Except for one guy being MUCH bigger, and the smaller guy wins. Not saying Tyson vs highly skilled grappler is even or anything, but saying Tyson (in his prime) isn't a CAN that's going to lay down

[Wilhelm]

I dunno about all that really.

:good:nod

[codeman99998]

You seriously think say a 120-130 pd man is going to choke out a 230 pd man?

Really? A small child, when climbing on your back the right way, can choke a man quite a bit. I recall my niece on my back while playing and telling her that she has to hold on differently because she was choking me.

A 120lb man could definitely choke out anyone in the world, providing he was skilled enough.

[ufoalf]

I was 230 with HS wrestling, got choked by a 135lb black belt in about a minute.

[Beebs]

I dunno about all that really. You seriously think say a 120-130 pd man is going to choke out a 230 pd man? I know in heavyweight you get shit like all the time (a person weighing 100 more pds submitting another), but it's kind of different at heavyweight in all sports. Seems like smaller divisions are more skilled, quicker, and there seems to be a big difference between sizes. As for heavyweight..There less skilled usually, some are simply overweight slow slobs, and seems like any guy who weighs over 220 (that's in good shape at least) is quite powerful. In boxing somebody like Tyson, Ali beat a lot of people bigger than them. In MMA it's the same way.
The saying is never more true though "A good big guy beats a good small guy." Bob Sapp is a crappy big guy. Valuev is a crappy big guy. You can't rate performances by these guys.
And yes I'm sure Tyson doesn't have grappling experience. He has plenty of street fighting experience, and I'm sure all those fights weren't on his feet. Like I said strong, in his prime, and even if some 130 pounder does get him down (not sure how), but that little dude better be badass, and jump him quick to keep him down. I just don't see it happening unless there one of the absolute BEST IN THE WORLD!
Like I said most of these fights where an MMA elite taps out a giant..The giant is HORRIBLE. They all have huge flaws. There uncoordinated, they lack heart, aggression, skill, stamina, etc. I don't think I've ever seen a fight in any sport where 2 people were about evenly matched...Except for one guy being MUCH bigger, and the smaller guy wins. Not saying Tyson vs highly skilled grappler is even or anything, but saying Tyson (in his prime) isn't a CAN that's going to lay down

Yes, easily.

If you think otherwise, you have never stepped foot in a grappling gym, period.

The takedown would require some work, but you said even when they were on the ground Tyson would be "too strong"; that is just flat out fucking stupid.

I believe "pick them up and snap them like a twig" was the exact phrase; if you believe that you should go try and grapple the smallest person at your local BJJ academy.

There has never been, is not now, and will never be, a man too strong to be outgrappled.

[dublynflya]

These damn iPhone keys

:lol:

[tri-pod]

:lol:


The fuck was this shite bumped for?

[Killer Instinct]

They go toe to toe, they leave on a stretcher

[Vitor Belfort]

An MMA fighter who goes toe to toe against a boxer is an idiot. Tim sylvia is one of them who tried to fight ray mercer with his striking. An MMA fighter who is smart enough won't go toe to toe with a boxer but instead take him down and beat his azz on the ground.

Kimbo Slice who is a known striker took mercer down and beat him on the ground. That's what i expect an MMA fighter to do against a boxer in an MMA fight.

[James23]

Some of the people in this thread are so beyond dumb it makes myhead hurt. Including the OP. (Or should I say, especially the OP)

[James23]

I was 230 with HS wrestling, got choked by a 135lb black belt in about a minute.

Very, very impressed you lasted that long, actually. Seriously, not meant to be an insult, that's actually pretty good. (Unless he was just toying with you...)

[Beebs]

Very, very impressed you lasted that long, actually. Seriously, not meant to be an insult, that's actually pretty good. (Unless he was just toying with you...)

Well if they started from the feet he could have kept it standing for a lot of that period, which would still be very impressive.

If you lasted that long actually on the ground, I'm also very impressed; wrestlers tend to do well in BJJ if they focus on the right things.

Also, I hate to do this, but was it a competitive or close to it match, like was the intensity level around 80+%? Otherwise he might have just been taking his time. Again, I don't want to downplay what you did, because it's pretty impressive.

BTW; if it was on the ground for that long, I bet it was a triangle choke. That seems to be what wrestlers get caught with the most at first.

[James23]

Well, true. I'm assuming it wasn't a competitive match as, unless he was at the very least a Brown Belt, he wouldn't be competitively grappling with an instructor. I'm assuming it was an exhibition of the instructor for his gym.

I know my instructor outgrapples me with ease. He's not even a guy like Jacare, Drysdale, or Ribero...he's a 7th degree BJJ Black Belt, but he's in his mid 50's and about 5'7. I'm 6' and am much physically stronger then him, and I have a grappling backround in BJJ, and he still is able to manipulate me with relative ease.

I can't believe we're even having this thread just over 16 years after Royce Gracie's coming out to the world with BJJ.

[TKDfighterJoe]

I'm sure this s a great discussion and all

but the typing style of one of the sides of the discussion is giving me a headache.

Ugh

[latineg]

I don't want to rain down on peoples sports here, but I hear this a lot "If a boxer fights MMA the boxer will lose, and if the MMA fighter fights a boxing match he'll lose." You guys seriously believe this is the case...After watching something like tonight?
I watched the card, and don't watch a lot of UFC, but enough to understand *some* matches are good/ exciting, and others are 2 dudes rolling around wtih eachother. So, since I'm a boxing fan, and like action I like to watch standup fights. Tonight gave me what I wanted, but tonight also told me a lot about boxer vs MMA fighter...
Here's my problem......These MMA fighters CANNOT take a damn punch! OMG!!! If these guys were in Pro boxing you'd hear nothing except about how they have a glass chin!!!!!!
Let me put it in retrospect...You got MMA fighers who wear 4 oz gloves, and easily knock eachother out/ down with one good punch. You got Pro boxers whom are wearing 8 oz gloves (4 oz more), you don't see many KD's/ KO's in many fights where they have 2 superior boxers, blood running down there faces, black eyes, knots, eyes closing for 12 rounds (they may land 15-30 CLEAN punches) and yet...Most still don't go down/ give up.
Let's compare Arturro Gatti vs Ward fights, and then compare the main event tonight Griffen/ Evans. Gatti/ Ward fights were physichal WARS! Griffin/ Evans: You had Griffin staying back, firing, winning the fight using his height. He goes down, and Evans throws some punches at his face, and it's all over. Kidding me? What kind of fighting spirit is that???

So, again back to my point. My point is a good boxer can take LOADS more punishment than most MMA fighters. AND honestly I believe even with MMA rules a lot of boxers beat MMA fighters. Standup MMA fighters wouldn't stand a chance unless a lucky kick. Even if MMA fighter does a takedown natural instincts tells you to do a lot. I mean Vitali Klitshko vs Frank Mir at standup??? I'd venture to say Vitali/ Wladimir are way physichally stronger than him as well even if he takes them down.
Again, not raining on anybodies sports, but these china chins get on my nerves, and it seems nobody sees this cept me.

nobody seez this cept u because ur a moron

lmao @ your brain

[latineg]

Very, very impressed you lasted that long, actually. Seriously, not meant to be an insult, that's actually pretty good. (Unless he was just toying with you...)

james shut up

[Drunkenboxer]

Again, not raining on anybodies sports, but these china chins get on my nerves, and it seems nobody sees this cept me.

Wow, nobody in the whole wide world can see it cept you.

Maybe we're smart enough to realize that smaller gloves = greater damage. Maybe everyone in the world is... Cept you.

[ufoalf]

Wow, nobody in the whole wide world can see it cept you.

Maybe we're smart enough to realize that smaller gloves = greater damage. Maybe everyone in the world is... Cept you.

I don't think you punch harder with smaller gloves(at least not significantly) but precision definitely makes a huge difference.

[James23]

I don't think you punch harder with smaller gloves(at least not significantly) but precision definitely makes a huge difference.

Smaller gloves doesn't = greater damage in the way that people here are probably thinking of it.

The amount of force is equal, but the distrubution of force is over a more concentrated area with the 4oz grappling gloves that MMA fighters use. With boxing gloves, the force is distrubuted over a greater surface area.

[James23]

james shut up

Excellent contribution.

[VX.Nefarious]

do you know how many boxers would get knocked out if they fought with the 7 ounce gloves instead?

and an experienced boxer vs. an experienced mixed martial artist would probably win because the boxer isn't trained to take leg kicks elbows or knees. they wouldn't know what to do if they saw them coming.

but in a boxing match. yes the boxer would win.

the worst part about boxing is also the worst part about mma. the biased fans who try to put one over the other.

two different sports.

:lol: by the time the mma fighter tries to throw a kick the boxer will already have a 3 punch combination on his weak ass chin, and down he goes

[VX.Nefarious]

I don't think you punch harder with smaller gloves(at least not significantly) but precision definitely makes a huge difference.

Smaller gloves doesn't = greater damage in the way that people here are probably thinking of it.

The amount of force is equal, but the distrubution of force is over a more concentrated area with the 4oz grappling gloves that MMA fighters use. With boxing gloves, the force is distrubuted over a greater surface area.

:thumbsup

[Drunkenboxer]

Smaller gloves doesn't = greater damage in the way that people here are probably thinking of it.

The amount of force is equal, but the distrubution of force is over a more concentrated area with the 4oz grappling gloves that MMA fighters use. With boxing gloves, the force is distrubuted over a greater surface area.

I'm not sure as to the science of it, but from my own experience in sparring I've felt punches from the same guys with a variety of glove weights and lighter definitely equals more force. The difference between a 16oz sparring glove and a 10oz is pretty scary. It's particularly noticeable in regards to facial damage, I've found. I can only imagine what it would be like getting clocked by some cunt wearing 4oz, even if he does throw sloppy, shit punches...

[Dantes]

This topic has been done to death. If anyone really cares it would be of benefit to trawl through all the previous threads dedicated to this topic- rather than rehash it over and over again.

[latineg]

Excellent contribution.

thankz bro i guess u could sense u were getting a lil long winded as well

as you were

[James23]

I'm not sure as to the science of it, but from my own experience in sparring I've felt punches from the same guys with a variety of glove weights and lighter definitely equals more force. The difference between a 16oz sparring glove and a 10oz is pretty scary. It's particularly noticeable in regards to facial damage, I've found. I can only imagine what it would be like getting clocked by some cunt wearing 4oz, even if he does throw sloppy, shit punches...

As have I. You're feeling exactly what I said above. The distrubution of force over a given surface area. With boxing gloves, or larger gloves, the distrubution of force of over a greater surface area, thus you're still getting the same total amount of force, but it's over a greater area, thus less pressure is given over a greater area.

With grappling gloves, the same force will be given with the exact same punch, but the damage will appear greater because a smaller surface is effected. The distrubution of force is over a much smaller surface area thus the force is more concentrated.

You don't hit hand harder, psi-wise, just that it feels different due to the distrubution of force/kinetic energy over a given surface.

[codeman99998]

This topic has been done to death. If anyone really cares it would be of benefit to trawl through all the previous threads dedicated to this topic- rather than rehash it over and over again.

I'm not stoked that this stupid thread got bumped but at least it got bumped. If you take a look, this is actually an old thread that got bumped and at least that's better than someone making a new one.

[codeman99998]

As have I. You're feeling exactly what I said above. The distrubution of force over a given surface area. With boxing gloves, or larger gloves, the distrubution of force of over a greater surface area, thus you're still getting the same total amount of force, but it's over a greater area, thus less pressure is given over a greater area.

With grappling gloves, the same force will be given with the exact same punch, but the damage will appear greater because a smaller surface is effected. The distrubution of force is over a much smaller surface area thus the force is more concentrated.

You don't hit hand harder, psi-wise, just that it feels different due to the distrubution of force/kinetic energy over a given surface.

PSI is pounds per square inch of force right? It seems to me that if you throw a punch with the same force, but have smaller gloves (less square inches) the PSI would be higher on a smaller area.

[James23]

PSI is pounds per square inch of force right? It seems to me that if you throw a punch with the same force, but have smaller gloves (less square inches) the PSI would be higher on a smaller area.

It is. My phrasing may have been a little off, but the total force is equal when thrown from a boxing gloves (regardless of oz) and that of a grappling gloves.

The total, cumulative force, is equal, just distrubuted over a different surface area. (More concentrated for a grappling gloves, and less for a boxing glove)

The only thing that increases the amount of force is when you throw sans the gloves. If you throw bare knuckle, then you have a much greater impact.

[codeman99998]

It is. My phrasing may have been a little off, but the total force is equal when thrown from a boxing gloves (regardless of oz) and that of a grappling gloves.

The total, cumulative force, is equal, just distrubuted over a different surface area. (More concentrated for a grappling gloves, and less for a boxing glove)

The only thing that increases the amount of force is when you throw sans the gloves. If you throw bare knuckle, then you have a much greater impact.

Well, if throwing with no gloves means greater force than throwing with smaller gloves must mean greater force.

With physics taking the problem to the extremes helps to understand smaller differences, I find. Obviously if someone threw a punch with 40oz gloves (a crazy thing) the force would be less (or, even if the force was the same the impact wouldn't be as harsh) as if the person threw with 4oz gloves. Taking this extreme into account, it only makes sense that smaller gloves mean more damaging blows.

[James23]

Well, if throwing with no gloves means greater force than throwing with smaller gloves must mean greater force.

With physics taking the problem to the extremes helps to understand smaller differences, I find. Obviously if someone threw a punch with 40oz gloves (a crazy thing) the force would be less (or, even if the force was the same the impact wouldn't be as harsh) as if the person threw with 4oz gloves. Taking this extreme into account, it only makes sense that smaller gloves mean more damaging blows.

Actually, you'd think. But with quite a bit of physics nowadays, alot of the "common sense" is often counterintuitive.

Yes, it's shown that throwing a punch without a glove gives you a far greater force.

But, it's also shown that throwing a punch with a grappling glove (again, 4oz) gives you equal force to throwing that same punch (with like force) gives you roughly the exact same total force. The only difference is the distrubution of kinetic energy and the surface area effected.

As I've said, the smaller gloves do mean more damaging blows, but not because the force is that much greater, but because of the smaller surface area that is effected. Same force, but smaller surface area, means greater damage to a smaller surface.

[ufoalf]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[James23]

Yeah, kinda that. ^^^

[TKDfighterJoe]

[Only registered and activated users can see links] guys are so bad at their 'science'. Of course they hit at the same psi. MUSCLES POWER THE STRIKE.

But two different things, one more dense hitting a smaller surface area, and the other being less dense and hitting a large surface area, will make a huge freaking difference. You are MORE PROTECTED when hit with a boxing glove.

[codeman99998]

those guys are so bad at their 'science'. Of course they hit at the same psi. Muscles power the strike.

But two different things, one more dense hitting a smaller surface area, and the other being less dense and hitting a large surface area, will make a huge freaking difference. You are more protected when hit with a boxing glove.

+1

[iksrtfo]

This guy knows jack shit. Look at Marcus the handgrenade. He was pro boxer but got beat by Dan Hardy. He fails to realize that MMA fighters spar with pro boxers, some are class boxers with belts.

[ufoalf]

those guys are so bad at their 'science'. Of course they hit at the same psi. MUSCLES POWER THE STRIKE.

But two different things, one more dense hitting a smaller surface area, and the other being less dense and hitting a large surface area, will make a huge freaking difference. You are MORE PROTECTED when hit with a boxing glove.

K explain how bare fist hit with so much more force?

[codeman99998]

K explain how bare fist hit with so much more force?

It's more PSI. If two punches have the exact same force but one punch spreads the force over a 10 square inch area and the other spreads the force over a 20 square inch area than the pounds per square inch of force would be greater for the smaller glove because it has a smaller surface area.

[codeman99998]

K explain how bare fist hit with so much more force?

It's more PSI. If two punches have the exact same force but one punch spreads the force over a 10 square inch area and the other spreads the force over a 20 square inch area than the pounds per square inch of force would be greater for the smaller glove because it has a smaller surface area.

No gloves at all lowers the surface area even more (especially considering a well thrown punch really only "hits" with two knuckles.)

[ufoalf]

It's more PSI. If two punches have the exact same force but one punch spreads the force over a 10 square inch area and the other spreads the force over a 20 square inch area than the pounds per square inch of force would be greater for the smaller glove because it has a smaller surface area.

No gloves at all lowers the surface area even more (especially considering a well thrown punch really only "hits" with two knuckles.)

That's not the point, point is he said their(in the video I posted) science is bad but it seems that their science is bad only while comparing boxing gloves to MMA gloves but not while comparing gloves to no gloves. How does this make sense?

[codeman99998]

That's not the point, point is he said their(in the video I posted) science is bad but it seems that their science is bad only while comparing boxing gloves to MMA gloves but not while comparing gloves to no gloves. How does this make sense?

Because the experiment doesn't take out all of the variables. A much better experiment would be a machine that throws a punch with the same exact force wearing the different gloves or bare. The problem is even if you throw a punch "as hard" as the other, it just isn't very scientific. Human error can easily account for the differences in the PSI in this "experiment".

[Chris85]

And that same padding doesnt protect the other dude's face?

haha you beat me too it this fellow seems to be a bit dilusional.

That depends how the glove is constructed. The outside padding could be made from harder material than the inner one. Therefore the glove will protect the hand better than the person getting punch with it.

Imagine a boxing glove cladded with metal (harder material) on the outside :hi:

The padding protects the fighter's hand-it doesn't protect his head from the FORCE of the blow.You ever felt Reyes gloves?There freakin hard.
Why doesn't boxing use 4 oz gloves?It would destroy the fighters hands easily.Go hit a heavybag with 4oz gloves for a lengthy duration and your hands will be done.

:good

[Chris85]

K explain how bare fist hit with so much more force?

You seemed confused :patsch

[cloud_cyc]

deleted

[cloud_cyc]

...but I hear this a lot "If a boxer fights MMA the boxer will lose, and if the MMA fighter fights a boxing match he'll lose." You guys seriously believe this is the case.

- i definitely do. because it makes the most sense. a top boxer will most likely lose over a to a top mma fighter on an "MMA match" because a top mma fighter will definitely find a way to take down a "boxer who doesnt know MMA" at will. what dou you think will happen when the fight gets to the ground? "grappler + boxer + ground" do the math. the same way a top boxer will most likely school a top MMA fighter in a pro-boxing match any given night. for one, MMA guys' "boxing" stance are not suited for boxing. it is suited for protecting themselves against striking and at the same time, you can still be mobile enough to stop you opponent if he decides to shoot for a takedown. you should also take into consideration the time they spend to train themselves. lets say, given a 100 hours of training, boxers are used to spend 100 hours to train their boxing skills while MMA fighters will probably alot a certain amount of times for boxing, BJJ, wrestling, or other martial arts that they specialize at. it's stupid to expect a top MMA fighter to box at the same level with a top pro-boxer.

After watching something like tonight?
I watched the card, and don't watch a lot of UFC, but enough to understand *some* matches are good/ exciting, and others are 2 dudes rolling around wtih eachother.

- well this one explains things. it's fine that you want to claim that you "watched enough to understand it" but IMO you still dont, that "those 2 dudes rolling around w/ each other" comment is a good proof.

let me explain this, theyre not on top of one another for mins. just for the sake of being on top. look at it like it's a physical chess match, one guy will initiate action on the ground but if his opponent can out-wit him, hell end up losing that "on-the-top" advantage or worse he can get subbed. they throw punches/ ground and pound theyre opponent not just to deal damage but also to get some reaction from their opponents where they can capitalize if their opponent will lose focus on keeping their defense punch-wise and submission-wise.

These MMA fighters CANNOT take a damn punch! OMG!!! If these guys were in Pro boxing you'd hear nothing except about how they have a glass chin!!!!!!.

- key word "THEY'RE NOT PRO-BOXERS". yes they get caught with punches, but they never get punched in the face as much as boxers do for their body develop enough to be able to absorb punches better. same way can be said that boxers wont be able to take those leg kicks the way MMA fighters can.

My point is a good boxer can take LOADS more punishment than most MMA fighters.

- if you're talking about "boxing punishment" (punches) then yes. but same can be said that an MMA fighter can take LOADS more "MMA damage" (punches, kicks, submission attempts... shit those kimura attempts can fuck-up a boxers arm)

Standup MMA fighters wouldn't stand a chance unless a lucky kick. Even if MMA fighter does a takedown natural instincts tells you to do a lot. .

- so you're talking about an MMA fighter vs. a boxer here since you were talking about kicks right? stand up MMA fighters doesnt necessarily mean they dont know shit about shooting for takedowns. they are smart enough to not enggage a fighter w/ boxing background on a stand up, they'll box a little then go for the take down at the right time. and contrary to you belief, natural insticts are not enough to defend agains a BJJ belter, doesnt matter if its black belt or not. a BJJ belter spends years of training for natural insticts to shit on it.

I mean Vitali Klitshko vs Frank Mir at standup??? I'd venture to say Vitali/ Wladimir are way physichally stronger than him as well even if he takes them down.

Klit vs Mir eh? try Klit vs Brock. i bet your ass Brock will take down any of those Klit brothers like a rag-doll if they decide to fight him.

Again, not raining on anybodies sports, but these china chins get on my nerves, and it seems nobody sees this cept me.

well attention whores who pretends to know shit gets on a lot of peoples nerves. and other people has the same opinion as you regarding to that matter. but the same common denominator always pops-up... most of you are followers of boxing and have only watched MMA a few times.

[cloud_cyc]

Heavyweight champion of the world BROCK LESNAR. Dude has a few MMA fights and already champion of the world. One loss I might add out of those few fights.
.

i agree that the way he got the opportunity to win a belt that early is kinda shady IMO. well fuck dana, he wants to build his name early. but he beat the champion to be the new champion so IMO he definitely deserves it. it's not like it was handed to him on a silver platter or something. he has a very good amatreur wrestling back ground, add his combination of size,strength and freakish athleticism, he's probably bound to dominate UFC HW division for years. and by the sounds of it, you judge MMA based on watching only UFC? there were also some organisations/former-organisations like Pride, K-1, etc. which showcased a lot of great talents.

[cloud_cyc]

Wow, actually somebody who explained something, and I do agree. I think there'd be a lot less KO's if they actually just kept there hands up though, didn't swing wildly, and bring there hands back to position. A few fighters seem to do this, but overall don't do a very good job. That's why I never liked Liddell...Dude could hit, but I'll be damned if he kept his hands up (that's why he got KTFO). Very sloppy.
Also, a lot of time when they go for a kick they usually drop those hands, and there chin is definitely open. Might think I'm being a little to critical, but when you train as hard as I'm guessing they do...You should practice not dropping your hand whenever you throw something...

you wont get leverage if you tuck your arms while kicking. if you give a half-ass kick attempt, youl end up on the ground. and you cant use the pro-boxing stance on MMA coz a good wrestler will put you on the ground easily

[cloud_cyc]

ufc=glorified wwe

dude your dumb if you think that theres even a slight similarity "being a sport"-wise between those two. you still probably think that wwe is for real... let me tell you something, the undertaker isnt really dead :patsch

[cloud_cyc]

He was the catian of the cal poly wrestling team. Know what the fuck you are talking about or shut the duck up

nice call. he doesnt even have a clue why chucks opponents always had hard time on takedown attempts.

[vinnie D'Andrea]

ok, do most of you know what the first M in mma stands for mixed it means u know a bunch and whoever said boxing gloves hurt more aint ever been in a cage, jermain taylor has been one of my sparing partners and coach for 5 years and brandon vera my kickboxing coach for 8 and Baruche is my bjj instuctor for 3. u need to be well rounded.. in the boxing ring of course a boxer but in the cage or in a street fight and mma fighter and leg kicks so u all know arent suppose to hurt your opponents its to soften them up so the have no power later in the rounds if u dont have your legs you have no power and what r elbows for CUTTING not knock out though it does happen. if u know zero groung work you can get submitted in seconds. every time a boxer gets knocked down he turns an gives his back and stands up in the ring, thats a bad idea u dont give some1 your back cause u get the hooks set in then next thing you know your r pissin yourself wonderin what happen i love boxing just the young kids shouldnt be single minded with there style. and kj noons holds belts in boxing and mma, and vitor belfort could fight in n e boxing ring. point is b well rounded. dont limit yourself. i've been getn my faced smashed for 15 yrs or so, an i love it except my calflower ears haha. everybody wants to support there style, but u really need more than one in my OPINION., but hey i could b wrong. tell me whatcha think?

[vinnie D'Andrea]

and chuck has heavy hands and is way past his prime, the last thing to go is your strength, but your speed goes and getin knock out alot more when your 37 fighting a 25 year old its just nature.but u dont wana get knocked out be a spectaor cause it will happen no matter how tough you think you are, but thats y the ones on this site that do this mma an boxing for a living are a diffrent breed of people, and its almost insulting if sum people werent so dumb taking out a pro boxer or mma fighter is just the same as beating labron james in basketball, this is what most of us on this website do, an we wouldnt trade it

[vinnie D'Andrea]

o and chuck doesnt get taken down because he still has the best sprawl in the business

[Bill Butcher]

Answer to thread title - NO, dont be silly.

A boxer has a punchers chance in the cage.... an MMA fighter has next to no chance in a boxing ring.... An elite MMA fighter has a massive advantage vs an elite boxer in a no rules street fight for obvious reasons but again, the boxer has the punchers chance.

End thread !

[Stoo]

I don't want to rain down on peoples sports here, but I hear this a lot "If a boxer fights MMA the boxer will lose, and if the MMA fighter fights a boxing match he'll lose." You guys seriously believe this is the case...After watching something like tonight?
I watched the card, and don't watch a lot of UFC, but enough to understand *some* matches are good/ exciting, and others are 2 dudes rolling around wtih eachother. So, since I'm a boxing fan, and like action I like to watch standup fights. Tonight gave me what I wanted, but tonight also told me a lot about boxer vs MMA fighter...
Here's my problem......These MMA fighters CANNOT take a damn punch! OMG!!! If these guys were in Pro boxing you'd hear nothing except about how they have a glass chin!!!!!!
Let me put it in retrospect...You got MMA fighers who wear 4 oz gloves, and easily knock eachother out/ down with one good punch. You got Pro boxers whom are wearing 8 oz gloves (4 oz more), you don't see many KD's/ KO's in many fights where they have 2 superior boxers, blood running down there faces, black eyes, knots, eyes closing for 12 rounds (they may land 15-30 CLEAN punches) and yet...Most still don't go down/ give up.
Let's compare Arturro Gatti vs Ward fights, and then compare the main event tonight Griffen/ Evans. Gatti/ Ward fights were physichal WARS! Griffin/ Evans: You had Griffin staying back, firing, winning the fight using his height. He goes down, and Evans throws some punches at his face, and it's all over. Kidding me? What kind of fighting spirit is that???

So, again back to my point. My point is a good boxer can take LOADS more punishment than most MMA fighters. AND honestly I believe even with MMA rules a lot of boxers beat MMA fighters. Standup MMA fighters wouldn't stand a chance unless a lucky kick. Even if MMA fighter does a takedown natural instincts tells you to do a lot. I mean Vitali Klitshko vs Frank Mir at standup??? I'd venture to say Vitali/ Wladimir are way physichally stronger than him as well even if he takes them down.
Again, not raining on anybodies sports, but these china chins get on my nerves, and it seems nobody sees this cept me.

You used OMG in a post :patsch:roll::thumbsup

[HENDO]

ok, do most of you know what the first M in mma stands for mixed it means u know a bunch and whoever said boxing gloves hurt more aint ever been in a cage, jermain taylor has been one of my sparing partners and coach for 5 years and brandon vera my kickboxing coach for 8 and Baruche is my bjj instuctor for 3. u need to be well rounded.. in the boxing ring of course a boxer but in the cage or in a street fight and mma fighter and leg kicks so u all know arent suppose to hurt your opponents its to soften them up so the have no power later in the rounds if u dont have your legs you have no power and what r elbows for CUTTING not knock out though it does happen. if u know zero groung work you can get submitted in seconds. every time a boxer gets knocked down he turns an gives his back and stands up in the ring, thats a bad idea u dont give some1 your back cause u get the hooks set in then next thing you know your r pissin yourself wonderin what happen i love boxing just the young kids shouldnt be single minded with there style. and kj noons holds belts in boxing and mma, and vitor belfort could fight in n e boxing ring. point is b well rounded. dont limit yourself. i've been getn my faced smashed for 15 yrs or so, an i love it except my calflower ears haha. everybody wants to support there style, but u really need more than one in my OPINION., but hey i could b wrong. tell me whatcha think?

:lol:

[coog]

I don't want to rain down on peoples sports here, but I hear this a lot "If a boxer fights MMA the boxer will lose, and if the MMA fighter fights a boxing match he'll lose." You guys seriously believe this is the case...After watching something like tonight?
I watched the card, and don't watch a lot of UFC, but enough to understand *some* matches are good/ exciting, and others are 2 dudes rolling around wtih eachother. So, since I'm a boxing fan, and like action I like to watch standup fights. Tonight gave me what I wanted, but tonight also told me a lot about boxer vs MMA fighter...
Here's my problem......These MMA fighters CANNOT take a damn punch! OMG!!! If these guys were in Pro boxing you'd hear nothing except about how they have a glass chin!!!!!!
Let me put it in retrospect...You got MMA fighers who wear 4 oz gloves, and easily knock eachother out/ down with one good punch. You got Pro boxers whom are wearing 8 oz gloves (4 oz more), you don't see many KD's/ KO's in many fights where they have 2 superior boxers, blood running down there faces, black eyes, knots, eyes closing for 12 rounds (they may land 15-30 CLEAN punches) and yet...Most still don't go down/ give up.
Let's compare Arturro Gatti vs Ward fights, and then compare the main event tonight Griffen/ Evans. Gatti/ Ward fights were physichal WARS! Griffin/ Evans: You had Griffin staying back, firing, winning the fight using his height. He goes down, and Evans throws some punches at his face, and it's all over. Kidding me? What kind of fighting spirit is that???

So, again back to my point. My point is a good boxer can take LOADS more punishment than most MMA fighters. AND honestly I believe even with MMA rules a lot of boxers beat MMA fighters. Standup MMA fighters wouldn't stand a chance unless a lucky kick. Even if MMA fighter does a takedown natural instincts tells you to do a lot. I mean Vitali Klitshko vs Frank Mir at standup??? I'd venture to say Vitali/ Wladimir are way physichally stronger than him as well even if he takes them down.
Again, not raining on anybodies sports, but these china chins get on my nerves, and it seems nobody sees this cept me. First of all the grapplers are stronger as a rule. They have been training thier core for a lot longer and for the most part the physical aspect is tougher. Second it would really boil down who has the best defence. I believe boxers do a better job of avoiding punches they shade the lead foot a little better. MMA people usually stand right in front so they have more options as far as offense. It is an offensive game. There is also the case of being off balance which can lead to more knock downs. Also in MMA there are more power punches fewer jabs. Remember there is no standing 8 count you cannot cover up if dazed in MMA Boxing you can.

[PIRA]

Terrible logic, but it's the same case with pretty much anyone who doesn't understand MMA or physics. I still get a laugh out of boxing fans claiming the larger the glove the more damaging the punch when it's in fact the exact opposite. MMA gloves equal a much smaller, more concentrated area of contact with less absorption in the glove itself, leading to much easier KO's, as they're far more accurate and direct on the button if landed clean.

You can't just assume everyone who fights in a particular sport has a genetically weak chin either, and I hope you don't. That is completely illogical.

Also, it's quite obvious that a boxer destroys an MMA fighter in a boxing match, and vice versa. MMA fighters stand with other MMA fighters who generally aren't supposed to have any distinct advantage in the standup department. If the opponent is clearly the better striker, the other fighter will attempt to take the fight to the ground. A boxer would obviously be too much to handle for most MMA fighters (though not the top Muay Thai fighters of kickboxers, as they have far too many effective tools for a boxer who uses only his hands) on the feet, which is why an MMA fighter wouldn't attempt to stand with them like they would another similarly-skilled MMA fighter, they'd take them right to the ground. Obviously, being a boxing fan, you don't think it would be that easy. Trust me (and it's been proven before on countless occasions, including with boxers who've tried their hand at MMA), if the boxer has no martial arts experience (primarily wrestling) outside of boxing, it is exactly that easy.

Also, as I said previously, the best standup fighters in the world aren't boxers, that title would belong to the cream of the Muay Thai and kickboxing crop. Boxers have two attack points to work with, lefty and righty, whereas the top Muay Thai fighters have 8 (hands, elbows, knees, kicks). Not to mention any clinch that would occur would greatly favor the Muay Thai fighter, as they're extremely well schooled at fighting with non-boxing techniques and using different digits (primarily the knees) from that position. Not many MMA fighters are on this level, but they are quite a few class Muay Thai stylists in MMA (Anderson Silva being one), along with skilled kickboxers.

In short, no single style is more effective than being efficient in multiple styles, because if that one style martial artist holds an edge in his department, the multi-skilled fighter can easily take him out of his game by implying a different style, one the single stylist can't cope with. This was proven in the early days of the UFC and has been proven with even greater effect since then when single style martial artists have tried to prove their hand against mixed martial artists. Maybe once in a blue moon they'll get lucky, but the majority of the time, they're just far too limited, boxers included.


:thumbsup

Put any of these boxers in the ring with the true Kings Of The Ring, Muay Thai, and watch them get punched, kicked, elbowed, kneed and then tossed out of the ring for being stupid enough to even think they stand a chance. Would be nice if we could put trolls in - maybe that might shut them up.

[James23]

:thumbsup

Put any of these boxers in the ring with the true Kings Of The Ring, Muay Thai, and watch them get punched, kicked, elbowed, kneed and then tossed out of the ring for being stupid enough to even think they stand a chance. Would be nice if we could put trolls in - maybe that might shut them up.

I would pay just to see the look on their faces.

[PIRA]

James,

I think the whole MMA world and even true boxing fans would pay to see trolls with a " What the fuck have I got myself in for here" expression.


BTW true story of an elite boxer going against a MMA fighter in a gym in Australia recently.


Spike Cheney appointed as a new boxing coach, an Olympic medallist in 1988 and former pro, observed a young MMA guy training at his new workplace and made a few comments until he was invited in to the ring to back them up. Extremely cocky until the MMA fighter, who turned out to be Adrian Pang, broke Spike's elbow in the first minute.


Boxing coach 0, unrecognised pro MMA fighter 1.

[James23]

James,

I think the whole MMA world and even true boxing fans would pay to see trolls with a " What the fuck have I got myself in for here" expression.


BTW true story of an elite boxer going against a MMA fighter in a gym in Australia recently.


Spike Cheney appointed as a new boxing coach, an Olympic medallist in 1988 and former pro, observed a young MMA guy training at his new workplace and made a few comments until he was invited in to the ring to back them up. Extremely cocky until the MMA fighter, who turned out to be Adrian Pang, broke Spike's elbow in the first minute.


Boxing coach 0, unrecognised pro MMA fighter 1.

I'd believe it. Boxers in general (although not all) seem to have this thing for running off at the mouth. It's absolutely incredible. (And I'm not just saying that out of nothing, seems to be the universal experience that fighters in other disciplines encounter. I got to experience it at the gym where I used to practice Muay Thai. (I also practiced wrestling/BJJ at the time, and has previous miscellaneous MA experience) There was a boxing gym in the same building and it's absolutely incredible, the snide comments, the blantant disrespect and the all out shit talking. 100%, not just some, but 100%, of it unprovoked.

I would detail more but odds are the boxing faithful wouldn't believe it even if it was on video.

[PIRA]

Our gym is the opposite James and thank god for that. Our MMA, boxing and Muay Thai fighters all help each other and get on well together.

We have a pretty firm rule though that if you talk shit about a style then you get in the ring or get out of the gym and that gets rid of any idiots pretty fast.

[James23]

Our gym is the opposite James and thank god for that. Our MMA, boxing and Muay Thai fighters all help each other and get on well together.

We have a pretty firm rule though that if you talk shit about a style then you get in the ring or get out of the gym and that gets rid of any idiots pretty fast.

Ah, sounds like you're at a mix gym. This was just one where there were two completely different guys, one running the boxing (for the whole state, really) and the other was my Muay Thai instructor. I did my BJJ training elsewhere. And I'd come in to do my time and they'd be in there, in our room, doing sit-ups, push-ups, and warming up and it's simply unbelievable. They really wouldn't shut up. If you thought you've heard condescending....looool, these guys took the cake.

Fortunately, I don't have to deal with that nonsense now, nor does anyone else I trained with there. New gym, new rules, better structure and more like what you're talking about. Definately the best way to go at it.

[PIRA]

Ah, sounds like you're at a mix gym. This was just one where there were two completely different guys, one running the boxing (for the whole state, really) and the other was my Muay Thai instructor. I did my BJJ training elsewhere. And I'd come in to do my time and they'd be in there, in our room, doing sit-ups, push-ups, and warming up and it's simply unbelievable. They really wouldn't shut up. If you thought you've heard condescending....looool, these guys took the cake.

Fortunately, I don't have to deal with that nonsense now, nor does anyone else I trained with there. New gym, new rules, better structure and more like what you're talking about. Definately the best way to go at it.

:thumbsup Good stuff James - better to be happy in a new gym than putting up with negativity.

[James23]

Indeed, sir. Luckily we've got some good guys that know a bit about boxing where I'm at now. Nobody famous or anything just some local guys who know the game well. They've adapted some of the techniques for MMA, which is hugely helpful, because what they used to have to do is learn pure boxing technique and then tweak it. So, yeah, glad you're also in a good gym. :)

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Let alone the obvious fact that a good wrestler would take a boxer down with ease.... There are plenty of MMA fighters who would outstrike boxers as well. People who actually know how to kick legs, body, head, knees, clinch, elbows, ect.... Muay Thai guys, and kickboxers are much more well rounded strikers for MMA.

[cloud_cyc]

o and chuck doesnt get taken down because he still has the best sprawl in the business

:good

[vinnie D'Andrea]

Im just waiting for another idiot to claim good boxers punch > crocop kick. I remember someone saying Mike Tyson hits twice hard than Crocop kicks :lol:

well they also say quinton jackson hits as hard as a car hitting u a 20mph in a compacted space, tru fact, did u not see when they tested it?

[vinnie D'Andrea]

:good

name a better sprawl? Sure he can wreslter? But a sprawl is what stops a take down.

[vinnie D'Andrea]

really? A small child, when climbing on your back the right way, can choke a man quite a bit. I recall my niece on my back while playing and telling her that she has to hold on differently because she was choking me.

A 120lb man could definitely choke out anyone in the world, providing he was skilled enough.
i feel ya on the size thing if they are to small, im 6'5 225 and i wana stand an bang hey its more fun but if u have zero ground skill, but are really strong how don u get out of a submission that takes milliseconds to break bones and an make u go to sleep where how strong u are doesnt matter, i won a match by putting a nose lock on a guy once when i was young his nosed was shatterd, now how do u work out your nose, and my bjj coach is 160 an if he got my back an sank his hooks in i'd be asleep in seconds, strenght means nada when your brain has no blood

[vinnie D'Andrea]

quit you day job. You have a bright future against all the stiffs in mma. :rofl
haha come to the cage just once, ive been in the ring alot not near as demanding

[TheStraightLeft]

BTW true story of an elite boxer going against a MMA fighter in a gym in Australia recently.


Spike Cheney appointed as a new boxing coach, an Olympic medallist in 1988 and former pro, observed a young MMA guy training at his new workplace and made a few comments until he was invited in to the ring to back them up. Extremely cocky until the MMA fighter, who turned out to be Adrian Pang, broke Spike's elbow in the first minute.


Boxing coach 0, unrecognised pro MMA fighter 1.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]"BLITZ MAGAZINE: At that time, the general public (who had not seen Gracie tear through the opposition in the UFC) was still very uneducated about grappling. I hear that a former boxer actually challenged you while you were in a gym having BJJ sessions?

ADRIAN PANG: No, it was in a boxing gym, sparring some teammates at Brendale, when I was challenged. This guy just jumped straight in the ring and put on a pair of MMA gloves, grinning ear to ear. He was laughing at the thought of all the damage he was going to do with those little gloves on. Cutting a long story short, minutes later he was slammed to the floor and his arm was hyper extended to a sickening degree. Next day I got in trouble by the gym owner for breaking the new boxing coach Spike Cheney's arm. I was unaware of how good a boxer he was and that he was the last Aussie boxer to win a medal at the Olympics! We became good friends after that and had a mutual respect for each other. Had a few good challenges in that gym."

([Only registered and activated users can see links])

[vinnie D'Andrea]

everytime some chump starts a thread like this on the boxing side they always put it on this side as if anybody wants it around here.

wow this site is amazing huh? U seem like one of the few real figters on it. They r to weak an undisciplind to learn more than one style, i think these kids think a submission take an hour or sumthn haha, n e boxer would eventually give up his back(very bad) or hopefully one of the pricks will just leave an arm hangin out haha, u cant sweat the uneducated, keep your hands up and chin down,vinnie

[vinnie D'Andrea]

lmao! I don't want to be completely biased to mma (again, as i stil watch it a bit), but would people stop with these dumbass examples? Who the hell is that black guy? He isn't even in good shape! I got this video, and a video of butterbean! :rofl:rofl
i'm not talking about butterbean. I'm talking about a prime mike tyson, pac, mayweather, etc vs an mma figher.
Alright, let's say prime tyson vs a crappy 220 pd ufc fighter. You don't think he stands a chance? An aggressive, but evasive pitbull like tyson couldn't beat a crappy ufc fighter? Not only will i say that at standup (meaning kicks allowed) tyson would kill a crappy ufc fighter...i guarantee if they'd take tyson to the ground (any man his size) tyson would overpower them, and give them some ground and pound! A prime 220 pound tyson..i'm willing to bet nobody in ufc at 220 would be as physichally as strong.

I went to a mma gym for about 3 months. The dudes were in great shape, *some* were decent fighters. I'm about 5'6 165 right now. I've lifted weights for years, and boxed for a while. Never wrestled in my life! I got to roll with people around my weight (155-180) who fight cage fights, and have for years, and these guys were as strong as small children to me. One guy tried to put me in a triangle, and i just pick him up and powerbomb him. Another guy tried some kind of armlock..had both hands on my one arm, and still couldn't move it.
My point is some of these guys are in great shape (they were over there), but they lack strength. I don't give a shit what moves you know...if your doing them on somebody who's twice as powerful i bet 9/10 times you won't get them on him!

So, really about the only arguments you guys got that boxers couldn't stop/ have answers for would be leg kicks. Hands the boxer wins no matter what gloves. Movement the boxer wins. Wrestling it depends on the individuals (again, no mma fighter would be able to wrestle a boxer who's much stronger), kicks the mma fighter obviously wins (kicks to the head wouldn't work though as the boxer has a high guard).
Basically, i don't see why an aggressive, strong boxer (not a counter puncher, not a defensive master, not butterbean!) would have much trouble. Just jump on the mma guy, and knock him out (you might take a leg kick in the process).
hey there are alot of guys at 220 and sum at 205 and smaller that could beat tyson(on the ground that is of course)and submissions arent all about strength to get out of, there is no defense, besides duckin your chin for a rear naked choked but the u get a ridge hand and a jaw lock, which a broken jaw suck , an mma fighter dont do to many high leg kicks its after a set up, but low kicks are suppose to wear you down an get you flat footed an take away your power an get you reaching an off balance, i've traind many styles for 17 years, now tell me whats i difference in blocking or lets say defense in boxing and kickboxing? Kicboxing you bend at the knees an boxing at the waist , so what happens when u bend at the waist against sum1 who can use there legs, you got a knee to the face,

[vinnie D'Andrea]

lol! Someone who actually explained something!?

You're simply lucky he bothered to indulge your bullshit.

Shut the fuck up and go read the 1000 other pages in this forum that explain, in every minutia, the reasons that boxers cant just go to mma and win.

Shit, the top tier kickboxers in the world can't even go into mma and win titles without lots of serious crosstraining.

codeman u r by far right isnt one of the best kickboxers in the entire world kit cope, and look what happend to him i think in his first fight he was submitted in the first round his first fight, u gota be well rounded boxers are not they would tap out an get scared of passing out because they are not used to the pain in sensation, u have to learn to deal with those pain thresholds

[vinnie D'Andrea]

maybe all of you only "PURE" boxers are hard to knock out, because u damn head is to thick to understand MMA, who do you think my boxing coach is a fucking hotdog vendor off the street. NO A PROFESSIONAL BOXER. AND MY KICKBOXING COACH AND BJJ. i mean do u think we just pick random people an say come train me. NO! and all u "PURE" boxers that think that strength will mostly over power submissions makes me laugh. i mean sure some like an arm bar u may be able to pick him up an slam him,but do u know how to roll out of one doubt it. but alot of strength doesnt matter at all and if u dont study it, you would have no idea what to look for or when one was coming, you most likely would set your self up . or would try to push off are chest to get a clean punch to the face, but now you left an arm exposed an i will roll my hips an break it off. say an mma fighter knocked u on your back, now how would u get up hmmm let me guess do sumthn dumb an give up your back an get choked out. in the ring sure a boxer has the advantage but anywhere else mma we have more tools. an why do people keep sayin put mike tyson against a crappy mma fighter,u guys dont respect what we do how bout mike tyson an arlovski 6'4 240 sambo expert moves like a lightheavy weight, kinda has a weak jaw but it really wouldnt matter or n e top heavy weight, fuck how bout quinton jackson and hes only 205, they did a study that said he puched as hard as a car goin 20 or 30 mph in a compacted area true story. if u dont have respect for mma go to your local gym for a week i bet girls would submit u, know i know they would. try it just one week. and the reason i keep saying "pure" is why would u only wana know one style, i love boxing and just fighting, an u keep talkn shit about our gloves i cant count how many times my hands have been broken after a fight but we keep going. normal mma fight is 3 rounds non championship, well one of the best boxing slugfest only went 3 rounds Hagler-Hearns,so r u sayin hagler or hearns has a weak jaw, didnt think so. i mean thats ridiculous to think all boxers have better jaws

[HENDO]

maybe all of you only "PURE" boxers are hard to knock out, because u damn head is to thick to understand MMA, who do you think my boxing coach is a fucking hotdog vendor off the street. NO A PROFESSIONAL BOXER. AND MY KICKBOXING COACH AND BJJ. i mean do u think we just pick random people an say come train me. NO! and all u "PURE" boxers that think that strength will mostly over power submissions makes me laugh. i mean sure some like an arm bar u may be able to pick him up an slam him,but do u know how to roll out of one doubt it. but alot of strength doesnt matter at all and if u dont study it, you would have no idea what to look for or when one was coming, you most likely would set your self up . or would try to push off are chest to get a clean punch to the face, but now you left an arm exposed an i will roll my hips an break it off. say an mma fighter knocked u on your back, now how would u get up hmmm let me guess do sumthn dumb an give up your back an get choked out. in the ring sure a boxer has the advantage but anywhere else mma we have more tools. an why do people keep sayin put mike tyson against a crappy mma fighter,u guys dont respect what we do how bout mike tyson an arlovski 6'4 240 sambo expert moves like a lightheavy weight, kinda has a weak jaw but it really wouldnt matter or n e top heavy weight, fuck how bout quinton jackson and hes only 205, they did a study that said he puched as hard as a car goin 20 or 30 mph in a compacted area true story. if u dont have respect for mma go to your local gym for a week i bet girls would submit u, know i know they would. try it just one week. and the reason i keep saying "pure" is why would u only wana know one style, i love boxing and just fighting, an u keep talkn shit about our gloves i cant count how many times my hands have been broken after a fight but we keep going. normal mma fight is 3 rounds non championship, well one of the best boxing slugfest only went 3 rounds Hagler-Hearns,so r u sayin hagler or hearns has a weak jaw, didnt think so. i mean thats ridiculous to think all boxers have better jaws

But think about it...

If you can't really fight, what do you do? You wrestle.

Why would someone wrestle? Cuz they scared to get hit. It's that simple.

I've been there too. I was gettin whupped in a boxing ring once because I was new and all I could think of doin was grabbin on.

Real warriors fight with their hands cuz they ain't scared to get hit.

But I do agree, if I can't fight, I'll try and grab. But deep down, even I know that it's a bitch move.

No dignity in it.

[TheStraightLeft]

But think about it...

If you can't really fight, what do you do? You wrestle.

Why would someone wrestle? Cuz they scared to get hit. It's that simple.

I've been there too. I was gettin whupped in a boxing ring once because I was new and all I could think of doin was grabbin on.

Real warriors fight with their hands cuz they ain't scared to get hit.

But I do agree, if I can't fight, I'll try and grab. But deep down, even I know that it's a bitch move.

No dignity in it.


Brock Lesnar, NCAA heavyweight wrestling champion and current UFC heavyweight champion - he wrestles because he's scared to get hit. This guy:

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[HENDO]

Brock Lesnar, NCAA heavyweight wrestling champion and current UFC heavyweight champion - he wrestles because he's scared to get hit. This guy:

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If he ain't scared, why doesn't he box?

Can you imagine how much money would be made if he boxed James Toney in the boxing ring rather than lay on top of him in a cage?

Millions upon millions more than he would make in MMA.

James Toney ain't scared, he got the balls to go to MMA, but why is Brock not in boxing?

Money is to be made.

But think about him in with the Klitschkos for instance. Shit, even if he fought outta shape retired for many years George Foreman, end result, Brock shits himself in the ring.

You don't see any MMA fighter try n fight an elite pro boxer cuz they would get completely humiliated.

It's like Paul Donahue tryin to play basketaball in the NBA. It just ain't right.

It doesn't work that way in an MMA ring cuz anything can happen.

Like when Mercer KOed the former UFC champ. No way Lesnar KOes Lennox Lewis.

That's just crazy.

[196osh]

Shit why dont boxers play golf. Much more money to be made in golf. Why not play football?

[HENDO]

Shit why dont boxers play golf. Much more money to be made in golf. Why not play football?

Who do you know that makes $40 mil for 36 minutes of work?

And that's a stupid example anyway cuz no one would pay for James Toney to golf. Nobody gives a shit.

But people are interested in seeing Brock get in the boxing ring so they will pay.

Don't be irrelevent.

[TheStraightLeft]

If he ain't scared, why doesn't he box?

Can you imagine how much money would be made if he boxed James Toney in the boxing ring rather than lay on top of him in a cage?

Millions upon millions more than he would make in MMA.

So in other words, you're maintaining that Brock Lesnar is indeed scared of being punched in the face and no amount of millions will convince him to step into a boxing ring because he's simply shaking in his boots.....?

[196osh]

Who do you know that makes $40 mil for 36 minutes of work?

And that's a stupid example anyway cuz no one would pay for James Toney to golf. Nobody gives a shit.

But people are interested in seeing Brock get in the boxing ring so they will pay.

Don't be irrelevent.

Idoit. How many boxers make $40m in their whole careers. Golfers make millions of dollars a year. Even relitivly shit ones. A relitivly shit boxer makes fuck all.

Pay? Are you retarded. Golf is the richest sport in the world. If your goal is to make money go golf.

36 mins? Are you retarded. You think the 2 months + training and 40 fights before wernt build up? :rofl

[HENDO]

Idoit. How many boxers make $40m in their whole careers. Golfers make millions of dollars a year. Even relitivly shit ones. A relitivly shit boxer makes fuck all.

Pay? Are you retarded. Golf is the richest sport in the world. If your goal is to make money go golf.

36 mins? Are you retarded. You think the 2 months + training and 40 fights before wernt build up? :rofl

Again, who in the fuck would pay James Toney to Golf?

On the other hand, Bob Arum and other promoters would be SALIVATING to get Brock Lesnar in the ring against one of the elite champions in boxing because of the potential money it would make.

And they would not take forever like Dana White would with James Toney because they ain't scared. They know Brock gets plastered. Dana White can't say the same thing about Toney. That's why he hesitated.

[196osh]

Again, who in the fuck would pay James Toney to Golf?

On the other hand, Bob Arum and other promoters would be SALIVATING to get Brock Lesnar in the ring against one of the elite champions in boxing because of the potential money it would make.

And they would not take forever like Dana White would with James Toney because they ain't scared. They know Brock gets plastered. Dana White can't say the same thing about Toney. That's why he hesitated.


The guys goal isnt to make money. Its to compete in the sports they enjoy doing whillst also getting paid.

If they just wanted to make money they would go do something that made lots of money. Not boxing because there are plenty of other sports where you can make better money.

Who would pay Toney? If he was fucking good at golf then the prize money genius. Toney scared of a little compition on the course? *pussy*

[TheStraightLeft]

The guys goal isnt to make money. Its to compete in the sports they enjoy doing whillst also getting paid.

No dude, it all comes down to Brock Lesnar shaking in his boots cos he's too afraid of getting hit in the face. :patsch

[196osh]

No dude, it all comes down to Brock Lesnar shaking in his boots cos he's too afraid of getting hit in the face. :patsch

:silly

My mistake....

[TheStraightLeft]

:silly

My mistake....


And the reason why Brock Lesnar isn't going into golf is because he's afraid of a rogue golf ball flying in from no where and whacking him in his pretty face. Screw the $$ millions, it's much safer in MMA where you don't run the risk of getting hit by flying golf balls.

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[HENDO]

The guys goal isnt to make money. Its to compete in the sports they enjoy doing whillst also getting paid.

If they just wanted to make money they would go do something that made lots of money. Not boxing because there are plenty of other sports where you can make better money.

Who would pay Toney? If he was fucking good at golf then the prize money genius. Toney scared of a little compition on the course? *pussy*

FACT: Toney cannot play golf at this time and expect to get paid.

FACT: Lesnar CAN go into Boxing right now and make MILLIONS.

FACT: Toney had the balls to go into MMA and take on anybody.

FACT: Moorer knocked out former UFC CHAMP in less than 10 seconds.

FACT: No UFC fighter has ever had the balls to get in the boxing ring and take on a former boxing champ.

So why the fuck would Toney play golf, when he instead decided to make some money in the UFC?

Lesnar if he had real heart and didn't fight like he was desperate to get you on the ground as soon as possible, he would go into the boxing ring and make MILLIONS more than he would in the UFC, and make it in his FIRST FIGHT.

[HENDO]

Thing with Brock is, we're gonna see his true colors when he finally fights a guy his own size in Carwin.

We'll see what happens when he simply can't overpower a guy and has to actually fight.

[HENDO]

Look, I don't want to get banned. Brock is a true warrior.

I don't even give a shit.

(Carwin by KO)

[TheStraightLeft]

Lesnar if he had real heart and didn't fight like he was desperate to get you on the ground as soon as possible,

ah yes.. going to the ground is MUCH safer.

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[sonyt]

ah yes.. going to the ground is MUCH safer.

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in ground you maybe get hit, stand up and you sure get punched

[Spunik]

But think about it...

If you can't really fight, what do you do? You wrestle.

Why would someone wrestle? Cuz they scared to get hit. It's that simple.

I've been there too. I was gettin whupped in a boxing ring once because I was new and all I could think of doin was grabbin on.

Real warriors fight with their hands cuz they ain't scared to get hit.

But I do agree, if I can't fight, I'll try and grab. But deep down, even I know that it's a bitch move.

No dignity in it.

Are you a charter member of the Houston Alexander fan club?

[James23]

If he ain't scared, why doesn't he box?

Can you imagine how much money would be made if he boxed James Toney in the boxing ring rather than lay on top of him in a cage?

Millions upon millions more than he would make in MMA.

James Toney ain't scared, he got the balls to go to MMA, but why is Brock not in boxing?

Money is to be made.

But think about him in with the Klitschkos for instance. Shit, even if he fought outta shape retired for many years George Foreman, end result, Brock shits himself in the ring.

You don't see any MMA fighter try n fight an elite pro boxer cuz they would get completely humiliated.

It's like Paul Donahue tryin to play basketaball in the NBA. It just ain't right.

It doesn't work that way in an MMA ring cuz anything can happen.

Like when Mercer KOed the former UFC champ. No way Lesnar KOes Lennox Lewis.

That's just crazy.

What's crazy is that you're still posting. You're still posting after being slapped down repeatedly after every one of your insanely idiotic posts with pseudo-facts.

I've done it several times and while it was fun at the time to quiet the moron, it's not even fun anymore. Just stop. Go back to GBF where your opinion might come off as fact or where your unbelievable bias towards boxing might matter.

[Popkins]

I don't want to rain down on peoples sports here, but I hear this a lot "If a boxer fights MMA the boxer will lose, and if the MMA fighter fights a boxing match he'll lose." You guys seriously believe this is the case...After watching something like tonight?
I watched the card, and don't watch a lot of UFC, but enough to understand *some* matches are good/ exciting, and others are 2 dudes rolling around wtih eachother. So, since I'm a boxing fan, and like action I like to watch standup fights. Tonight gave me what I wanted, but tonight also told me a lot about boxer vs MMA fighter...
Here's my problem......These MMA fighters CANNOT take a damn punch! OMG!!! If these guys were in Pro boxing you'd hear nothing except about how they have a glass chin!!!!!!
Let me put it in retrospect...You got MMA fighers who wear 4 oz gloves, and easily knock eachother out/ down with one good punch. You got Pro boxers whom are wearing 8 oz gloves (4 oz more), you don't see many KD's/ KO's in many fights where they have 2 superior boxers, blood running down there faces, black eyes, knots, eyes closing for 12 rounds (they may land 15-30 CLEAN punches) and yet...Most still don't go down/ give up.
Let's compare Arturro Gatti vs Ward fights, and then compare the main event tonight Griffen/ Evans. Gatti/ Ward fights were physichal WARS! Griffin/ Evans: You had Griffin staying back, firing, winning the fight using his height. He goes down, and Evans throws some punches at his face, and it's all over. Kidding me? What kind of fighting spirit is that???

So, again back to my point. My point is a good boxer can take LOADS more punishment than most MMA fighters. AND honestly I believe even with MMA rules a lot of boxers beat MMA fighters. Standup MMA fighters wouldn't stand a chance unless a lucky kick. Even if MMA fighter does a takedown natural instincts tells you to do a lot. I mean Vitali Klitshko vs Frank Mir at standup??? I'd venture to say Vitali/ Wladimir are way physichally stronger than him as well even if he takes them down.
Again, not raining on anybodies sports, but these china chins get on my nerves, and it seems nobody sees this cept me.

Christ Almighty, this topic is older and mustier than an 85 year old nun's undergarments.

These know-nothing ignorant imbeciles appear on the MMA forum talking utter shite about things they don't understand at all, whilst behaving as if they are dispensing pearls of wisdom and educating the masses out of the goodness of their hearts - you sir, are a prime asshole of the very, very highest calibre.

For the record (yet again), a boxer embarrasses an MMA fighter in a boxing match, and an MMA fighter humiliates a boxer in an MMA fight.

Get it??? Goody.

END OF TOPIC FOREVER...



...until the next 15 year old General Forum moron turns up and bores us all over again. :dead

[vinnie D'Andrea]

how is there no dignity is actually studying different forms of fighting, and fights in the street go to the ground alot. now im 6'5 225 so while im breaking every bone in your face you dont think it mite be a good idea to know some kind of ground work, at least how to get away before you get a brand new dental plan. i think it would b smart, and saying mma fighters dont have as good as chins as boxers is ridiculous, that like me saying im italian we have the best chins see it sounds stupid, if you dont wana bleed get broken bones and no matter what somebody is gona knock you out if you fight long enough. and if u dont think it can happen to you come to our gym in san diego, an we will let u try it out if you dont wana take the chance go cheer from the stands,we need spectator that think they could live a real fighters life style. now i started out boxing thats what we do growing up in my family my grandfather fought jake lamotta, how many people on this site have ever been in the ring or the cage, it sounds like most of you havent. and after every fight we go partying and hear all the dumb wana be tough guys saying "i could hang with you" an that will never happen point is kimbo slice a chump to an experienced fighter. Guys boxing is great, but be a complete fighter and you will know the difference

[Spunik]

^^^ dude is scary.....

[James23]

Christ Almighty, this topic is older and mustier than an 85 year old nun's undergarments.


That's just nasty.

[codeman99998]

how is there no dignity is actually studying different forms of fighting, and fights in the street go to the ground alot. now im 6'5 225 so while im breaking every bone in your face you dont think it mite be a good idea to know some kind of ground work, at least how to get away before you get a brand new dental plan. i think it would b smart, and saying mma fighters dont have as good as chins as boxers is ridiculous, that like me saying im italian we have the best chins see it sounds stupid, if you dont wana bleed get broken bones and no matter what somebody is gona knock you out if you fight long enough. and if u dont think it can happen to you come to our gym in san diego, an we will let u try it out if you dont wana take the chance go cheer from the stands,we need spectator that think they could live a real fighters life style. now i started out boxing thats what we do growing up in my family my grandfather fought jake lamotta, how many people on this site have ever been in the ring or the cage, it sounds like most of you havent. and after every fight we go partying and hear all the dumb wana be tough guys saying "i could hang with you" an that will never happen point is kimbo slice a chump to an experienced fighter. Guys boxing is great, but be a complete fighter and you will know the difference

Who is your Grandfather? If it's Vinnie D'andrea than he never fought Jake Lamotta. He fought on the same card as Lamotta, but never fought the man.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

But think about it...

If you can't really fight, what do you do? You wrestle.

Why would someone wrestle? Cuz they scared to get hit. It's that simple.

I've been there too. I was gettin whupped in a boxing ring once because I was new and all I could think of doin was grabbin on.

Real warriors fight with their hands cuz they ain't scared to get hit.

But I do agree, if I can't fight, I'll try and grab. But deep down, even I know that it's a bitch move.

No dignity in it.
That is some of the silliest shit that I have ever heard.:lol:

You do realize that people wrestle because it is the best way to control a fight don't you? Wrestling is part of fighting... you act like boxing is the only real fighting style or something, that's just silly.

It has nothing to do with being afraid to get hit. It has everything to do about dominating the person in front of you. I could just as easily say that people stand and throw punches because they can't wrestle or grapple. I could also say that any boxer who uses defense is just afraid to get hit as well. That's all just nonsense. Logic should tell you that people usually resort to their strength and comfort zone. People don't start wrestling at 4 years old because they are afraid to get hit.:lol: People wrestle their entire lives because it is a great sport. If those people choose to move into MMA it is arguably the best fighting base to start with. Not only because it is such a dominant skill, but also because it gives you the ability to decide where you want the fight to take place. Plenty of wrestlers use their wrestling ability to keep fights on their feet. Many decide to be smart and use their ability to attack their opponents weakness... whether that be on their feet or on the ground. Some wrestlers use their ability to take fighters down and just grind out decisions. Not the fans favorite part of the game, but if it works... it's a win. If it is such a "bitch move"... then why can't you stop it? Nobody is going to pull a wrestler off of you in a dark alley when you are all alone.

You sound like those kids that you always see at school getting the piss beat out of them by someone taking them down and pounding the shit out of them... while the kid and his two friends complain about the wrestling.:rofl

From your perspective... a "real warrior" is nothing more than an extremely limited fighter.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

FACT: Toney cannot play golf at this time and expect to get paid.

FACT: Lesnar CAN go into Boxing right now and make MILLIONS.

FACT: Toney had the balls to go into MMA and take on anybody.

FACT: Moorer knocked out former UFC CHAMP in less than 10 seconds.

FACT: No UFC fighter has ever had the balls to get in the boxing ring and take on a former boxing champ.

So why the fuck would Toney play golf, when he instead decided to make some money in the UFC?

Lesnar if he had real heart and didn't fight like he was desperate to get you on the ground as soon as possible, he would go into the boxing ring and make MILLIONS more than he would in the UFC, and make it in his FIRST FIGHT.
Yeah, I am sure that the NSAC would be sanctioning Brock Lesnar vs Wladimir Klitschko right away. Use your damn head. That fight would NEVER happen. You do realize that they don't sanction fights with a fighter of zero boxing experience (am or pro) vs a Champion or former champ... right?

Also... why on earth would a real all around fighter bother going into such a limited sport such as boxing in order to box against a boxer? What sort of sense does that make? The entire point of the boxer going into MMA would be to prove that his skill of "boxing" trumps the MMA fighters main skill of "wrestling" ect... Why would a Wrestler go into a boxing match, against a boxer... and have to follow boxing rules, in which they aren't allowed to wrestle? Let alone kick, knee, elbow, clinch fight, submit, ect... Exactly what would that prove? If you put them in an MMA match, then it obviously would either prove that the boxers boxing trumped the wrestlers wrestling, or vice versa.... in boxing it proves nothing. That the boxers boxing trumps the wrestlers boxing... what a fucking surprise.:lol: It doesn't even prove that he can out strike the MMA fighter, just outbox him. Who knows what would happen if leg kicks, head kicks, muay thai clinches, ect... were involved. At that point even a straight up striking match is COMPLETELY different than boxing.

[PIRA]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]"BLITZ MAGAZINE: At that time, the general public (who had not seen Gracie tear through the opposition in the UFC) was still very uneducated about grappling. I hear that a former boxer actually challenged you while you were in a gym having BJJ sessions?

ADRIAN PANG: No, it was in a boxing gym, sparring some teammates at Brendale, when I was challenged. This guy just jumped straight in the ring and put on a pair of MMA gloves, grinning ear to ear. He was laughing at the thought of all the damage he was going to do with those little gloves on. Cutting a long story short, minutes later he was slammed to the floor and his arm was hyper extended to a sickening degree. Next day I got in trouble by the gym owner for breaking the new boxing coach Spike Cheney's arm. I was unaware of how good a boxer he was and that he was the last Aussie boxer to win a medal at the Olympics! We became good friends after that and had a mutual respect for each other. Had a few good challenges in that gym."

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That's the one!

[vinnie D'Andrea]

Who is your Grandfather? If it's Vinnie D'andrea than he never fought Jake Lamotta. He fought on the same card as Lamotta, but never fought the man.

yea an he was real good but did the thing alot of italian fighters did in those days which i hate is take dives, i lost most of my family young and the word i always heard that the fight was set with lamotta the he got hit by a taxi cab breaking both legs and he was suppose to be a real big prospect with knockout power n either hand but after his legs heald, he wasnt the same. he started loan sharkin for the gambino family and thatsnall i know he had a real nice record but if you could please help or tell me where to look for info on him, because he was suppose to be the next big thing around mulberry street. hince his nick name "the pride of mulberry bend" but after getin hit by the cab he almost had to hang it up and it would be nice to know where you really come from an why fighting is n me, so i'd b real grateful just for a little help if u ever have the time so i can get more facts. thank you tons even that statement made my night

[PNoyFightFanUSN]

Vinnie "the Mulberry Bend Kid" D'Andrea?

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I see a lot of 2 and 3 time matches merely a month and a half apart.fighters that were fighters.

"fuck it my bruising is healed enough"

[vinnie D'Andrea]

Vinnie "the Mulberry Bend Kid" D'Andrea?

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I see a lot of 2 and 3 time matches merely a month and a half apart.fighters that were fighters.

"fuck it my bruising is healed enough"

thank you i am in complete shock this is amazing

[PNoyFightFanUSN]

so is that really him?does this actually bring up some discussion worthy family history of yours?

[tri-pod]

But think about it...

If you can't really fight, what do you do? You wrestle.

Why would someone wrestle? Cuz they scared to get hit. It's that simple.

I've been there too. I was gettin whupped in a boxing ring once because I was new and all I could think of doin was grabbin on.

Real warriors fight with their hands cuz they ain't scared to get hit.

But I do agree, if I can't fight, I'll try and grab. But deep down, even I know that it's a bitch move.

No dignity in it.


So I'm guessing all of the ancient warriors of Rome and Sparta and that whole era aren't warriors at all then? After all, they did all wrestle. :lol:

Boxing is punching, moving, countering, foot work, rhythm ect.

Wrestling is dominating and controlling your opponent.

Two different sports, neither of which are any less "warrior" than the other.

Wrestling is one of the most ancient forms of fighting, and its practicality is still shown today.

[vinnie D'Andrea]

so is that really him?does this actually bring up some discussion worthy family history of yours?

yep that was him people were shocked we didnt even know his dad an brother were boxers either. or he won the gold gloves, he seemd like he may have been pretty good

[FORMIDABLE]

two different sports. I see what you are saying though. I've not been impressed by the overall quality of standup in MMA. Only BJ Penn's has impressed me. Anderson Silva has some crisp striking, but he's already boxed and not faired too well. You think these guys would've learned to move their head more and how to duck and weave with 4-6oz gloved fists flying at their heads

[snakey112]

two different sports. I see what you are saying though. I've not been impressed by the overall quality of standup in MMA. Only BJ Penn's has impressed me. Anderson Silva has some crisp striking, but he's already boxed and not faired too well. You think these guys would've learned to move their head more and how to duck and weave with 4-6oz gloved fists flying at their heads

anderson boxed like 8 years ago, his standup has improved exponentially since then, and all that ducking and weaving shoulder roll stuff doesn't really work in MMA, you do that and you'll get your head kicked into the 6th row.

[bald_head_slick]

Why are guys so stuck on calling MMA and Boxing "different" martial arts? They are not. That is like saying "fried chicken" (specific) and "buffet" (anything that is edible) are different. No crap! It makes no damned sense! MMA is NOT a martial art!!!! :patsch

Boxing is boxing. It is a specific sport with a specific rule set. MMA is a rule set that encompasses ANY number of combat techniques (sports and formal/informal martial arts) that can be modified to fit within the rule set. It can be BJJ, Judo, Boxing, Muai Thai, Kenpo, wrestling, etc... i.e., made non lethal.

The problem with ANY fighting style verses another is LOOKS. If you have never seen it or your training doesn't approximate something close enough to it for a fighter to deal? You will be screwed.

Unless a boxer practices in an MMA environment he is screwed. Unless an MMA fighter practices boxing he is disadvantaged, but fine. Why? He has seen EVERY look that the boxer has to offer. When the dukes go up he has a specific game plan to neutralize it. "Oh his hands went up and his stance isn't square? Maybe he can box? I will shoot on this fool." Fight over. If the boxer practices under the MMA rule set he should be fine unless his trainers are complete morons.

MMA is NOT a martial art it is a RULE SET! Boxing is a SPORT not a martial art! :deal

[kinski]

Proving once again boxing fans do not know shit about MMA! They wouldn't stand and trade with them.

[sugarsean]

do you know how many boxers would get knocked out if they fought with the 7 ounce gloves instead?.

Boxers used to wear 4oz glove's and go 15 - 25 rounds, Benny Lynch, Harry Greb, Sam Langford, etc, etc

[coog]

two different sports. I see what you are saying though. I've not been impressed by the overall quality of standup in MMA. Only BJ Penn's has impressed me. Anderson Silva has some crisp striking, but he's already boxed and not faired too well. You think these guys would've learned to move their head more and how to duck and weave with 4-6oz gloved fists flying at their heads
In MMA it is best that you donot duck. The best defence is moving aw3ay from the power side since mma striking is more power striking

[Kevin_Wright]

Damn, why isn't dwight howard playing goalie? I mean...either way he is like defending the basket right?

This argument is stupid.

[tri-pod]

Boxers used to wear 4oz glove's and go 15 - 25 rounds, Benny Lynch, Harry Greb, Sam Langford, etc, etc


That's beside the point. My point was that there are a lot of boxers who would get knocked the fuck out with 4oz gloves. Some people seem to think that the glass chin is an MMA disease, and that all MMA fighters have glass chins.

[sugarsean]

That's beside the point. My point was that there are a lot of boxers who would get knocked the fuck out with 4oz gloves. Some people seem to think that the glass chin is an MMA disease, and that all MMA fighters have glass chins.

well its not, in your point you said that the reason why boxers can take a punch better is because there wearing 8oz gloves, so I just said that boxers used to wear 4oz and I'm very certain even 3oz gloves and would routinely go 15 - 25 rounds.

[PIRA]

Why are guys so stuck on calling MMA and Boxing "different" martial arts? They are not. That is like saying "fried chicken" (specific) and "buffet" (anything that is edible) are different. No crap! It makes no damned sense! MMA is NOT a martial art!!!! :patsch

Boxing is boxing. It is a specific sport with a specific rule set. MMA is a rule set that encompasses ANY number of combat techniques (sports and formal/informal martial arts) that can be modified to fit within the rule set. It can be BJJ, Judo, Boxing, Muai Thai, Kenpo, wrestling, etc... i.e., made non lethal.

The problem with ANY fighting style verses another is LOOKS. If you have never seen it or your training doesn't approximate something close enough to it for a fighter to deal? You will be screwed.


MMA as we understand it is a rule set but pancrase is extremely simlilar and was practiced and performed as a co-exising stand up and ground art thousands of years ago.
Unless a boxer practices in an MMA environment he is screwed. Unless an MMA fighter practices boxing he is disadvantaged, but fine. Why? He has seen EVERY look that the boxer has to offer. When the dukes go up he has a specific game plan to neutralize it. "Oh his hands went up and his stance isn't square? Maybe he can box? I will shoot on this fool." Fight over. If the boxer practices under the MMA rule set he should be fine unless his trainers are complete morons.

MMA is NOT a martial art it is a RULE SET! Boxing is a SPORT not a martial art! :deal

I pretty much agreed until the last line. Boxing was invented as a scientific approach for gentlemen to defend themselves from staffs, clubs, etc. Thus it is a martial art - its prime reason for being is defending yourself.

[James23]

I pretty much agreed until the last line. Boxing was invented as a scientific approach for gentlemen to defend themselves from staffs, clubs, etc. Thus it is a martial art - its prime reason for being is defending yourself.

Actually, by definition it's not. Boxing is a sport. Martial Arts and their purpose are completely different. Martial Arts are fighting styles that were/are used in war. I don't know any state/country/empire that employed boxing as their premier combat tactic. Boxing is good for it's punching technique and it works well when in extremely limited combat. But, for practical purposes it's not even close to being the most effective. (Note that I didn't say ineffective, just not as effective as many, many other styles of defense or martial arts).

[PIRA]

Actually, by definition it's not. Boxing is a sport. Martial Arts and their purpose are completely different. Martial Arts are fighting styles that were/are used in war. I don't know any state/country/empire that employed boxing as their premier combat tactic. Boxing is good for it's punching technique and it works well when in extremely limited combat. But, for practical purposes it's not even close to being the most effective. (Note that I didn't say ineffective, just not as effective as many, many other styles of defense or martial arts).


James,

I disagree. Please read above - boxing was invented and practiced prior to the establishment of any formal ring or rules thus it is a martial art.

Effectiveness has nothing to with categorising it as a sport or as self defence.

[tri-pod]

well its not, in your point you said that the reason why boxers can take a punch better is because there wearing 8oz gloves, so I just said that boxers used to wear 4oz and I'm very certain even 3oz gloves and would routinely go 15 - 25 rounds.

I know they used to, but what does that have to do with anything? There was also a lot of boxers who got knocked the fuck out in the early rounds. That point is irrelevant, and of course added padding makes it harder to knock somebody out.

My point was to the thread starter saying:

Here's my problem......These MMA fighters CANNOT take a damn punch! OMG!!! If these guys were in Pro boxing you'd hear nothing except about how they have a glass chin!!!!!!

[James23]

James,

I disagree. Please read above - boxing was invented and practiced prior to the establishment of any formal ring or rules thus it is a martial art.

Effectiveness has nothing to with categorising it as a sport or as self defence.

When then I'll respectfully disagree again.

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The earliest and first definition of martial arts was a fighting style that was used in combat. (Or is currently used). The term now has different and many meanings, but at it's origins that's exactly what it means. And boxing, at no point anywhere ever, has been used primarily in combat. And there was a reason. It simply wasn't effective for the circumstance of combat. It's a very limited form of fighting and when you're fighting life and death you want something that has a bit more scope to it.

[PIRA]

When then I'll respectfully disagree again.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

The earliest and first definition of martial arts was a fighting style that was used in combat. (Or is currently used). The term now has different and many meanings, but at it's origins that's exactly what it means. And boxing, at no point anywhere ever, has been used primarily in combat. And there was a reason. It simply wasn't effective for the circumstance of combat. It's a very limited form of fighting and when you're fighting life and death you want something that has a bit more scope to it.

James,

You are very, very wrong. Boxing was learned frequently in conjunction with fencing or epee by the gentlemen of the day as self defence against being assaulted by staves, clubs and swords. It was taught as a self defence art to enthusiasts right from its inception. Quite clearly it is martial art and always has been - if use on the battlefield is the key qualifier then quite a number of popular martial arts will have to be renamed! You need to learn a lot more about the origins of boxing before you make such a silly statement.

And BTW boxing has been used as recently as WW2 - Easy Company used knuckledusters for close quarters work in the trenches when storming German Machine guns positions.

Forget Wikipedia - do some actual research!

[codeman99998]

James, dude, even your WIKI article cites boxing as a martial art...

Also, boxing is listed under Wiki's "List of Martial Arts."

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[James23]

James,

You are very, very wrong. Boxing was learned frequently in conjunction with fencing or epee by the gentlemen of the day as self defence against being assaulted by staves, clubs and swords. It was taught as a self defence art to enthusiasts right from its inception. Quite clearly it is martial art and always has been - if use on the battlefield is the key qualifier then quite a number of popular martial arts will have to be renamed! You need to learn a lot more about the origins of boxing before you make such a silly statement.

And BTW boxing has been used as recently as WW2 - Easy Company used knuckledusters for close quarters work in the trenches when storming German Machine guns positions.

Forget Wikipedia - do some actual research!

You seemto be missing the point, and I have done research. Years ago.

I said specifically that by it's earliest definition boxing can not be considered a martial art. Then, it was strictly defined as combat used fighting style. Or a system of fighting used in life/death combat (at least on a large scale). Even look at the word. Martial. Like Martial Law. Military. See the correspondence?

Now, under more recent definitions any fighting style is now classified as a martial art and more recently due to the fact that guns have been invented (or projectiles that weren't arrows). And because of that, boxing can by the more recent definition be considered a martial art. However, as I maintained since the beginning, in it's strictest definitions (or earliest) it is not.

[PIRA]

You have chopped and changed your definition of what a martial art actually encompasses and using your own criteria fairly then several of the most popular martial arts are not martial arts according to yourself. You seem to solely equate combat with a battlefield whilst ignoring or minimising the self defence component.

Judo, Tae Kwon Do, Greco Roman wrestling, Turkish wrestling and boxing just to name a few would not be considered martial arts if we used your criteria. :huh

And case in point the source you quoted directly contradicts you - I would read the "Bible Of Boxing" and focus on the development of boxing teachers and styles in the 18th century which will show why boxing came to be.
Also at no time has the word "martial" solely meant what you are stating - there are numerous meanings and usage accepted throughout the world. The criteria you are using is YOUR criteria and yours solely.


Martial
adjective
1. inclined or disposed to war; warlike: The ancient Romans were a martial people.

2. of, suitable for, or associated with war or the armed forces: martial music.

3. characteristic of or befitting a warrior: a martial stride.

[HENDO]

Let me break it down for ya'll.

James is one of those guys that has el feather fists, so he's scared to get in the ring and box, and would rather wrap up as soon as possible to avoid gettin hit.

So he gives boxin no credit at all.

It's understandable from his perspective.

[James23]

You have chopped and changed your definition of what a martial art actually encompasses and using your own criteria fairly then several of the most popular martial arts are not martial arts according to yourself. You seem to solely equate combat with a battlefield whilst ignoring or minimising the self defence component.

Judo, Tae Kwon Do, Greco Roman wrestling, Turkish wrestling and boxing just to name a few would not be considered martial arts if we used your criteria. :huh

And case in point the source you quoted directly contradicts you - I would read the "Bible Of Boxing" and focus on the development of boxing teachers and styles in the 18th century which will show why boxing came to be.
Also at no time has the word "martial" solely meant what you are stating - there are numerous meanings and usage accepted throughout the world. The criteria you are using is YOUR criteria and yours solely.


Martial
adjective
1. inclined or disposed to war; warlike: The ancient Romans were a martial people.

2. of, suitable for, or associated with war or the armed forces: martial music.

3. characteristic of or befitting a warrior: a martial stride.

Very nice post. Mischaracteristic of what my view, but nice regardless. You're fun to debate with because you bring valid points. Unlike that waste of space below you, whom I'll deal with (again) in a minute.

Again, that is not my definition. It was a widely accepted definition of martial art. I've even provided some etomological proof. Martial Arts, Martial Law. Common theme is military. Is it universal? No, of course not. Because the world was not as connected but for a majority of the connected world that was the definition. So, again, I have created no definition to any word anywhere. It is what it is regardless of my opinion.

And you're right, very many of today's martial arts (by modern (and better) definition) would not be considered martial arts in the far more strict sense. Absolutely correct. Wrestling would, because it was widely used, especially back in Roman times (and possibly earlier). Judo would absolutely not. Tae Kwon Do (American style) would absolutely not. It's absolute garbage (the majority of it).

And as for boxing, again, at no point am I saying it's completely ineffective. Actually, I think it's very effective. However, it is also extremely limited. (Especially in it's more modern form, but then again, I'm not sure it's changed a drastic amount or if the rules of boxing have been drastically changed) And when I say extremely limited I mean relative to the variety of situations that other forms of martial arts prepare you for. Boxing is good (and where it's good, it's fantastic) for a very, very select few scenarios.

I like ya P, you're a good debator and bring valid points to the table. :cool:

[James23]

Let me break it down for ya'll.

James is one of those guys that has el feather fists, so he's scared to get in the ring and box, and would rather wrap up as soon as possible to avoid gettin hit.

So he gives boxin no credit at all.

It's understandable from his perspective.

First, I'm getting very tired of slapping you down time and time again. Every single time I've been able to make you look like an absolute fool. It was fun at first, but now it's getting more annoying. You're like a child that does the same retarded thing over and over and over again. Just stop (posting here).

You're not breaking anything down for anyone. So, stop talking yourself up. It's not working.

And absolutely. Because you know my martial arts training background. Right? Because if you did, you'd know that I hold a black belt in a striking based art. And that I started doing Muay Thai and boxing once I reached the age of 18. And it was only after starting those that I started actively doing Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. So, yes, based on that I'm absolutely terrified of getting "in the ring and box."

And you're absolutely wrong. (Which isn't surprising because I haven't seen you right on anything...so it's a recognizable pattern...more of a constant, really) I give boxing a ton of credit. I give credit where credit is due. Boxing is a hugely effective form of fighting. However, what I do say is that it's the most limited of all the forms of fighting that are indeed effective. But I suppose if you could read and had a brain you would have got that from all of my previous posts. Eh, that's just you trying to make yourself look good at my expense from my making you look dumb over and over again. (And I'm not the only one...think there's maybe a reason that everyone here disagrees with you on everything you say?)

So, I've already shown that you know absolutely nothing about my perspective thus making it completely absurd for you to even begin to understand my views.

So, I'll say again. Stop posting here. Go back to GBF. When you get a brain and some logic/common sense, you're welcome back so long as you stop making these stupid nonsensical posts.

Bye.

[PIRA]

Very nice post. Mischaracteristic of what my view, but nice regardless. You're fun to debate with because you bring valid points. Unlike that waste of space below you, whom I'll deal with (again) in a minute.

Again, that is not my definition. It was a widely accepted definition of martial art. I've even provided some etomological proof. Martial Arts, Martial Law. Common theme is military. Is it universal? No, of course not. Because the world was not as connected but for a majority of the connected world that was the definition. So, again, I have created no definition to any word anywhere. It is what it is regardless of my opinion.

And you're right, very many of today's martial arts (by modern (and better) definition) would not be considered martial arts in the far more strict sense. Absolutely correct. Wrestling would, because it was widely used, especially back in Roman times (and possibly earlier). Judo would absolutely not. Tae Kwon Do (American style) would absolutely not. It's absolute garbage (the majority of it).

And as for boxing, again, at no point am I saying it's completely ineffective. Actually, I think it's very effective. However, it is also extremely limited. (Especially in it's more modern form, but then again, I'm not sure it's changed a drastic amount or if the rules of boxing have been drastically changed) And when I say extremely limited I mean relative to the variety of situations that other forms of martial arts prepare you for. Boxing is good (and where it's good, it's fantastic) for a very, very select few scenarios.

I like ya P, you're a good debator and bring valid points to the table. :cool:


:thumbsup Personally I hate the second word "art" to describe any style.

As we say in our gym "We are not artists, we are athletes, our canvas is our body and our gym, we strive for perfection and sometimes achieve it".

BTW your "pedigree" is damm close to mine. :thumbsup

[James23]

Good times, sir! :) And yeah, I think it moreso carries over from Sun Tsu's "Art" or War or something of the like, but yeah, the origin of the term is very, very old. Hence why I used the oldest meaning as clearly it has new and a bit more...clear definition today.

[AmericanSugar]

i've studied other martial arts and boxing is the only one that really teaches range. an understanding of range trumps kicks, elbows, knees...etc. grappling was once a big part of boxing; the clinches, infighting, the way boxers threw their punches, from underneath, holding and hitting, control.

basically boxing in essence is arguably one of the most effective martial arts that human beings have developed. think about it, the weapons are limited to just 2. do we always think the guy with more weapons will automatically win? its how good that person is with those weapons. How much versatility they have.

[alex-boxer42]

You seemto be missing the point, and I have done research. Years ago.

I said specifically that by it's earliest definition boxing can not be considered a martial art. Then, it was strictly defined as combat used fighting style. Or a system of fighting used in life/death combat (at least on a large scale). Even look at the word. Martial. Like Martial Law. Military. See the correspondence?

Now, under more recent definitions any fighting style is now classified as a martial art and more recently due to the fact that guns have been invented (or projectiles that weren't arrows). And because of that, boxing can by the more recent definition be considered a martial art. However, as I maintained since the beginning, in it's strictest definitions (or earliest) it is not.


1.So which definition do you agree with then, the old one or the new one?

2.Why?

3.Punches cant kill people?

4.Why does this matter so much?

[James23]

1.So which definition do you agree with then, the old one or the new one?

2.Why?

3.Punches cant kill people?

4.Why does this matter so much?

1. If you're thinking etomologically then I'd have to "agree" with the oldest one. Because otherwise it's a misnomer and doesn't really make any sense.

2. Answered in one. But then again, definitions are what they are, I can't really "agree" with it or disagree.

3. Of course punches can kill people. However, the odds of a singular punch killing someone (assuming it was the only punch) is astronomically small. (And I'm aware in some cases it can and does happen, but those are very unique cases and normally there is something odd about the physiology of the person who was struck that caused abnormal amounts of damage to be sustained from a single blow in the first place) Again, because it seems some people have difficult reading, I'm not saying that boxing is not effective. It is. I think it's very effective. However, it's also, by far, the most limited. It prepares you for such a small percentage of possible scenarios. Where it is effective it is exceptional, make no mistake, but again, that's a small window.

4. It's really doesn't. I merely pointed something out, was challenged on it and provided reason and proof. Nothing more, nothing less.

[alex-boxer42]

1. If you're thinking etomologically then I'd have to "agree" with the oldest one. Because otherwise it's a misnomer and doesn't really make any sense.

2. Answered in one. But then again, definitions are what they are, I can't really "agree" with it or disagree.

3. Of course punches can kill people. However, the odds of a singular punch killing someone (assuming it was the only punch) is astronomically small. (And I'm aware in some cases it can and does happen, but those are very unique cases and normally there is something odd about the physiology of the person who was struck that caused abnormal amounts of damage to be sustained from a single blow in the first place) Again, because it seems some people have difficult reading, I'm not saying that boxing is not effective. It is. I think it's very effective. However, it's also, by far, the most limited. It prepares you for such a small percentage of possible scenarios. Where it is effective it is exceptional, make no mistake, but again, that's a small window.

4. It's really doesn't. I merely pointed something out, was challenged on it and provided reason and proof. Nothing more, nothing less.



What are the odds of surviving for a human if Mas Omaya in his prime punches you in the head(once)?

Or escaping if he decides to?

What do you think of him often reportedly killing fuckin' bulls with only one "punch"?

Is their a difference between a karate punch and a boxing punch?

So you agree with the old explanation back when it was a "loose" term rather than when it has evolved and has been refined over time?




:bbb

[James23]

What are the odds of surviving for a human if Mas Omaya in his prime punches you in the head(once)?

Or escaping if he decides to?

What do you think of him often reportedly killing fuckin' bulls with only one "punch"?

Is their a difference between a karate punch and a boxing punch?

So you agree with the old explanation back when it was a "loose" term rather than when it has evolved and has been refined over time?




:bbb

You seem to be drawing somerange conclusions?

I have no idea, but I'd think alot of it has to do with if you're prepared for a punch, where he hits you, how hard he hits you, and the thickness of certain parts of your cranium. (And a bunch of other miscellaneous factors, obviously)

If he decides to what? Punch you? Well, if you're versed in any other martial art you can combat him back. (I must admit I don't know, well, anything about the man whom you're referring) Will you guarantee yourself safety? No, of course not, but if you're adept at wrestling then odds are, if he's something of a traditional boxer (with a bit of wiggle room) with no wrestling experience/knowledge himself, you're going to take him down with relative ease and thus his punching power is drastically reduced. Thus increasing the odds of your survival enormously. But, for your average non-trained person, then boxing is usually more then sufficient.

Reportedly? Sounds like nonsense glorified over time. Often exaggerations exaggerated even more. While I can't be certain that it's false on the same coin you can't be certain that it is (unless you are, in which case I'd require proof (proof...not "reportedly")

Well, they're both done with the fist? Yes, boxing punches are just that. Punches maximally efficient given the restrictions of boxing rules. It's very refined given the set of rules to which it has to conform. Karate on the other hand has very different rule sets (of which there are numerous forms as there are many styles of Karate) thus a greater variety of situations to anticipate thus a punch must be thrown different to maximize effect in conjunction with other techniques of the style. However, if you were to take any striking based martial art and limit it to strictly punching, over time what you'd get is boxing. That's what it is. Simply a limiting of the styles. Boxing is the most limited with the allowing of punches only.

Again, I can't "agree" with anything. And actually the definition has not been refined over time. It's in fact become more convoluded. It was it's simplest at it's earliest. Now, the definition has expanded to include fighting styles that by it's earliest definition wouldn't fit. Hence my use of the word misnomer.

[alex-boxer42]

Its the most limited, yet it's the most effective. Doing to much stupid shit limits you. It depends on what your goal is. If you wanna knock someones lights out or kill someone. Punch them in the fuckin' head. Concentration on this one technique therefore, makes you less limited in achieving your desired goal. If that is what your goal is. They will be fucked up before they can counter you with anything else of significance.

Which would be to take you down and fuck you up. Which to many people is the most effective way to win a streetfight. I believe its better just to have footwork, speed and mind boggling power in your punches.

:thumbsup

[James23]

Ugh, nevermind.