View Full Version : Cotto better than Kessler??
sonny73
08-12-2007, 03:44 PM
For some reason Ring Magazine have Cotto higher on their P4P list than a Kessler someone who is a double world champ unbeaten in more fights and having beat a slightly higher opposition I feel.Is it just a case of the Puerto Rican voting contingent bigging up Cotto above his actual achievements or do neutral minded people actually feel he is more deserving of a position on the top ten list above Kessler?.Maybe the voters for the p4p list should be dissallowed to vote for countrymen or people they have a vested interest in.
CASH_718
08-12-2007, 03:48 PM
For some reason Ring Magazine have Cotto higher on their P4P list than a Kessler someone who is a double world champ unbeaten in more fights and having beat a slightly higher opposition I feel.Is it just a case of the Puerto Rican voting contingent bigging up Cotto above his actual achievements or do neutral minded people actually feel he is more deserving of a position on the top ten list above Kessler?.Maybe the voters for the p4p list should be dissallowed to vote for countrymen or people they have a vested interest in.
Cotto is a two division champion with wins over fighters like DeMarcus Corley, Ricardo Torres, Zab Judah, Carlos Quintana, Oktay Urkal, Paulie Malinaggi, Carlos Maussa and Randel Baily.
Kessler has beatin Marcus Beyer.......... Librado Andrade and the GREAT Anthony Mundine.
Cotto's higher unless Kessler beats Calzaghe.
BigReg
08-12-2007, 03:51 PM
Cotto is a bigger name with a big name promoter. He therefore gets preferential treatment. All his fights are on HBO and Showtime, so writers have more opportunities to watch him. There's alot of great fighters out there who the so called experts ignore. It's ridiculous. Look at Dan Rafael's p4p list. He has Margarito ahead of Kessler. There is no way that anyone who has seen these two fight should have Margarito ahead of Kessler. B-Hop, Winky, and Calzaghe were whoopin ass for years, but didn't get put on the p4p lists until they beat a big named fighter(even if that big named fighter was inferior to them skillwise).
BigReg
08-12-2007, 03:55 PM
Cotto is a two division champion with wins over fighters like DeMarcus Corley, Ricardo Torres, Zab Judah, Carlos Quintana, Oktay Urkal, Paulie Malinaggi, Carlos Maussa and Randel Baily.
Kessler has beatin Marcus Beyer.......... Librado Andrade and the GREAT Anthony Mundine.
Cotto's higher unless Kessler beats Calzaghe.
Cotto is the flemsiest two division champ I have ever seen. He his 140 lb. title was a vacant title that he won by beating the immortal Kelson Pinto. His WW title was another vacant title that he wasn't even supposed to be fighting for. His promoter paid Urkal step aside money so that he could fight Quintana for another vacant title.
Asterion
08-12-2007, 03:57 PM
Cotto has much better wins and has been successful in two different weight classes. Obviously he's better P4P than Kessler.
PR Boxing Lore
08-12-2007, 04:02 PM
Well all the other top p4p lists I have seen have Cotto on top of him ,including magazines and personal reviews.
brooklyn1550
08-12-2007, 04:11 PM
Cotto has much better wins and has been successful in two different weight classes. Obviously he's better P4P than Kessler.
:good
BigReg
08-12-2007, 04:11 PM
Cotto is a bigger name in America only. In Europe itīs the other way round.
Ring Magazine is an American magazine
Tito Time
08-12-2007, 04:14 PM
That is a mistake.
Kessler is better than Cotto as a fighter NO QUESTION!
I am favoring Calzaghe but I know Kessler is the real deal!
I don't mean to sound ignorant or anything, but every post I read you always have something negative to say about Cotto. Just noticed that... Although most of your posts are very knowledgable.:huh
The Italarican
08-12-2007, 04:15 PM
Kessler jumps ahead of Cotto with an noncontroversial win over Calzaghe. Until then, right now Ring has it right.
Beebs
08-12-2007, 04:18 PM
Cotto has the much better resume, and is doing it now at his second weightclass, its a no brainer.
Terrible Terry
08-12-2007, 04:23 PM
I love Kessler but Cotto has fought much better competiton and has already won on a big pay per view show. Kessler has not fought anyone yet. Cotto is eye catching to fans because he destroys people and Kessler is a great European style boxer which a lot of americans don't enjoy watching.
alex-boxer42
08-12-2007, 05:56 PM
For some reason Ring Magazine have Cotto higher on their P4P list than a Kessler someone who is a double world champ unbeaten in more fights and having beat a slightly higher opposition I feel.Is it just a case of the Puerto Rican voting contingent bigging up Cotto above his actual achievements or do neutral minded people actually feel he is more deserving of a position on the top ten list above Kessler?.Maybe the voters for the p4p list should be dissallowed to vote for countrymen or people they have a vested interest in.
I have a couple of problems with your post. Kessler being a double cahmpion, trple quadruple doesnt mean anything because those are usless belts. The fighter skill and competiton level especially in the last five fights is what matters. Yes hes unbeaten in more fights, because hes fought more easy competition then Cotto. Kessler hasnt fought and beaten as many high level fighters as Cotto and definitly hasnt destroyed them like he has either. In my book if your destroying your(high level) competition, your pound 4 pound.
PH|LLA
08-12-2007, 06:09 PM
Cotto is a bigger name with a big name promoter. He therefore gets preferential treatment. All his fights are on HBO and Showtime, so writers have more opportunities to watch him. There's alot of great fighters out there who the so called experts ignore. It's ridiculous. Look at Dan Rafael's p4p list. He has Margarito ahead of Kessler. There is no way that anyone who has seen these two fight should have Margarito ahead of Kessler. B-Hop, Winky, and Calzaghe were whoopin ass for years, but didn't get put on the p4p lists until they beat a big named fighter(even if that big named fighter was inferior to them skillwise).
bingo
p4p list in america are a popularity contest, not a skill contest
China_hand_Joe
08-12-2007, 06:15 PM
Cotto has a better resume, but only to American Media influenced eyes.
Cotto's resume right now looks much better than Kessler's...but a win over Slapzaghe should bump Kessler over Cotto...
jecxbox
08-12-2007, 10:55 PM
Cotto is a two division champion with wins over fighters like DeMarcus Corley, Ricardo Torres, Zab Judah ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Carlos Quintana, Oktay Urkal, Paulie Malinaggi, Carlos Maussa and Randel Baily.
Kessler has beatin Marcus Beyer.......... Librado Andrade and the GREAT Anthony Mundine.
Cotto's higher unless Kessler beats Calzaghe.
agreed. :good...Belts don't mean shit anyways..Cotto has faced exellent B+ level fighters and manhandled them.
Cottos 30-0 record has great opposition and he has already fought many different styles and has gotten past them all.
[Only registered and activated users can see links] Top ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) [Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Gneus7
08-13-2007, 08:16 AM
Cotto has much better wins and has been successful in two different weight classes. Obviously he's better P4P than Kessler.
I agree, I think if u can do it in more than 1 weight it shows p4p quality.
Caper
08-13-2007, 10:47 AM
I have a couple of problems with your post. Kessler being a double cahmpion, trple quadruple doesnt mean anything because those are usless belts. The fighter skill and competiton level especially in the last five fights is what matters. Yes hes unbeaten in more fights, because hes fought more easy competition then Cotto. Kessler hasnt fought and beaten as many high level fighters as Cotto and definitly hasnt destroyed them like he has either. In my book if your destroying your(high level) competition, your pound 4 pound.
Could we shut this thread down
This has to be one of the most ridiculous threads I read in a while. To even think one would rank Kessler over Cotto would be close to blasphamy.....if Kessler was to beat Calzaghe then we could discuss this but until then his name should not be mentioned in the same sentence as Cotto. Sorry but this is more fact than opinion.
China_hand_Joe
08-13-2007, 11:05 AM
Cotto's resume is only marginally better. Zab is slightly better than anyone Kessler has faced. Quintana etc... are no better than fighters like Mundine, Beyer and Siaca in all seriousness. Quintana is simply better known in America.
Resumes won't change the fact Kessler is the superior fighter.
UndisputedUK
08-13-2007, 01:45 PM
Cotto is the flemsiest two division champ I have ever seen. He his 140 lb. title was a vacant title that he won by beating the immortal Kelson Pinto. His WW title was another vacant title that he wasn't even supposed to be fighting for. His promoter paid Urkal step aside money so that he could fight Quintana for another vacant title.
:patsch Pinto? Quintana ? WTF are they? :yep
BigReg
08-13-2007, 01:52 PM
:patsch Pinto? Quintana ? WTF are they? :yep
Neither one of them were beltholders
Caper
08-13-2007, 01:52 PM
Cotto's resume is only marginally better. Zab is slightly better than anyone Kessler has faced. Quintana etc... are no better than fighters like Mundine, Beyer and Siaca in all seriousness. Quintana is simply better known in America.
Resumes won't change the fact Kessler is the superior fighter.
I don't get it how has Kessler shown he is the better fighter? please elaborate?
Cotto has the overall edge in boxing ability when comparing P4p what can Kessler do physically that Cotto can't?
Cotto is a much better inside fighter cuts off the ring better and attacks the body in a much more effective manner. For example a fighter who rarely used his legs and stayed in the pocket all night for Kessler (Libarade) was able to finish the fight, a fighter of that caliber would have been brutally stopped around the 9th round against Cotto his body work would have halted a fighter of that level.
King Dan
08-13-2007, 01:54 PM
Cotto and Kessler are close in terms of pound for pound status.
In terms of competition, Cotto slightly edges Kessler.
Pound for pound matchup, I'd lean towards Kessler.
Caper
08-13-2007, 01:54 PM
:patsch Pinto? Quintana ? WTF are they? :yep
You can say the same for Kessler's record.
Listen I think Kessler's a solid fighter with great tools but he's no Cotto at this point, your also talking about a weight class that's is filled with a lot less talent than WW, or JrWW for that matter (Not the current version of JrWW though)
Caper
08-13-2007, 01:57 PM
Cotto and Kessler are close in terms of pound for pound status.
In terms of competition, Cotto slightly edges Kessler.
Pound for pound matchup, I'd lean towards Kessler.
Fair enough
What seperates them in my opinoin in Cotto's ability to cut off the ring and his body work, Kessler has good fundementals but Cotto has shown he can work fighters from the outside as well, countering and using his jab. Overall I think Cotto is more versitial.
Astola
08-13-2007, 02:13 PM
Fair enough
What seperates them in my opinoin in Cotto's ability to cut off the ring and his body work, Kessler has good fundementals but Cotto has shown he can work fighters from the outside as well, countering and using his jab. Overall I think Cotto is more versitial.
Ive been following both fighters pretty close and I am convinced that a p4p matchup would be to Kesslers advantage.
Cotto's resume is better than Kessler's, but overall I strongly think that Kessler is both more versatile, adaptive and technically more sound = the better fighter.
Cotto is a superb pressure fighter with extreme pop that breaks ribs. His fundamentals are very good but not perfect. He is so fascinating because of the extreme bodyshots and the enourmous pressure he puts to the ring.
On the other hand:
Kessler is a very smart technically almost flawless fighter that takes away his opponent without being hurt himself(!).
Kessler would thrash Cotto in a p4p matchup. Keep Cotto at a distance untill Cotto quits in the corner.No doubt in my mind.
King Dan
08-13-2007, 02:23 PM
Ive been following both fighters pretty close and I am convinced that a p4p matchup would be to Kesslers advantage.
Cotto's resume is better than Kessler's, but overall I strongly think that Kessler is both more versatile, adaptive and technically more sound = the better fighter.
Cotto is a superb pressure fighter with extreme pop that breaks ribs. His fundamentals are very good but not perfect. He is so fascinating because of the extreme bodyshots and the enourmous pressure he puts to the ring.
On the other hand:
Kessler is a very smart technically almost flawless fighter that takes away his opponent without being hurt himself(!).
Kessler would thrash Cotto in a p4p matchup. Keep Cotto at a distance untill Cotto quits in the corner.No doubt in my mind.
I'm a huge Cotto fan and I actually agree with this assessment.
Although "thrash" might be a little harsh.
Astola
08-13-2007, 02:28 PM
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I'm a huge Cotto fan and I actually agree with this assessment.
Although "thrash" might be a little harsh.
I know its harsh but in this matchup I dont give Cotto many chances...
It would be pretty onesided:deal
mc50341
08-13-2007, 03:12 PM
Cotto is a two division champion with wins over fighters like DeMarcus Corley, Ricardo Torres, Zab Judah, Carlos Quintana, Oktay Urkal, Paulie Malinaggi, Carlos Maussa and Randel Baily.
Kessler has beatin Marcus Beyer.......... Librado Andrade and the GREAT Anthony Mundine.
Cotto's higher unless Kessler beats Calzaghe.
I am wondering, what the heck have fighters like Corley, Torres, Quintana, Maussa, Baily, Urkal etc achieved since you rate them better than Siaca, Lucas, Mundine, Beyer and Andrade?
Cotto won a late win against Judah (who by the way have not won one single fight worth mention in over two years) and now everybody see him as some divine gift to boxing. We will know much more when he enters the ring next time together with Mosley.
I do not think you can compare Kessler and Cotto yet, they are both great fighter and still rising stars.
Caper
08-13-2007, 03:17 PM
I am wondering, what the heck have fighters like Corley, Torres, Quintana, Maussa, Baily, Urkal etc achieved since you rate them better than Siaca, Lucas, Mundine, Beyer and Andrade?
Cotto won a late win against Judah (who by the way have not won one single fight worth mention in over two years) and now everybody see him as some divine gift to boxing. We will know much more when he enters the ring next time together with Mosley.
I do not think you can compare Kessler and Cotto yet, they are both great fighter and still rising stars.
I guess that's a fair way to think about it.
Grabonator
08-13-2007, 03:54 PM
Cotto is better p4p than Kessler. If he beats Mosley and kessler beats Calzaghe it would be difficult though. It would be difficult to tell whos better p4p.
Chiko_Tech
08-13-2007, 04:18 PM
Cotto's resume is only marginally better. Zab is slightly better than anyone Kessler has faced. Quintana etc... are no better than fighters like Mundine, Beyer and Siaca in all seriousness. Quintana is simply better known in America.
Resumes won't change the fact Kessler is the superior fighter.
Siaca im puertorican so im know his stile very well he is not a a great fighter only a c fighter at best, Beyer was old and past it, the weaker champion in that list and Mundine is good but what he beat to be considered a great fighter lossing to the same Sica Starched by Otke, no way in hell this fighter will put Kesler ahead of Cotto
Chiko_Tech
08-13-2007, 04:20 PM
Cotto is better p4p than Kessler. If he beats Mosley and kessler beats Calzaghe it would be difficult though. It would be difficult to tell whos better p4p.
Still Cotto will be highter because one good win, and Cotto good win over Mosley will put again cotto ahead of him because of the better competition.
dumdane
08-13-2007, 05:22 PM
Fair enough
What seperates them in my opinoin in Cotto's ability to cut off the ring and his body work, Kessler has good fundementals but Cotto has shown he can work fighters from the outside as well, countering and using his jab. Overall I think Cotto is more versitial.
Funny.
The highlighted arguments you use here to make a case for Cotto being the better fighter are the exact same i'd use to argue my case for Kessler.
What makes Kessler really outstanding is his superior ringgeneralship and unparallelled control of distance that enables him to to completely dominate his oponents from the outside, keeping them at bay with a pinpoint accurate jab and countering any offensive attempts of his opponents.
You may have a point in Cotto being more versatile. But be carefull assuming because Kessler hasn't needed so show that degree of versatility, that he's unable to do so. IF reports from his training are to be believed (i accept that's a big IF), Kessler can be far more versatile than most expect.
The latest fight against Andrade is an exsample of how ppl have drawn hasty conclussions about Kessler. Before the fight Kessler was said to only ever move back in straight lines - and therefore would be severely troubled once facing a real tough pressure fighter. Well Kessler circled Andrade all night in a pretty much flawless performance.
NOT arguing Andrade is a great opposition. But i think some ppl are quick to draw conclussions about Kessler based on what they HAVEN'T seen in a very few fight.
Knob McDude
08-13-2007, 05:48 PM
This thread is a joke.
*IF* Kessler beats Calzaghe, you might have an argument.
Until then...
China_hand_Joe
08-13-2007, 08:35 PM
The fact people out there believe Kessler can beat Calzaghe automatically places Kessler amongst the top 5 P4P fighters in the world today.
Toopretty
08-13-2007, 08:55 PM
Kessler is a smart fighter. That is his only advantage. His defense is horrific and he is not busy. Cotto way better quality. Keep sleeping on this guy, Cotto is the real deal.
Caper
08-13-2007, 09:26 PM
The fact people out there believe Kessler can beat Calzaghe automatically places Kessler amongst the top 5 P4P fighters in the world today.
Your amazing :lol:
Cotto is a two division champion with wins over fighters like DeMarcus Corley, Ricardo Torres, Zab Judah, Carlos Quintana, Oktay Urkal, Paulie Malinaggi, Carlos Maussa and Randel Baily.
Kessler has beatin Marcus Beyer.......... Librado Andrade and the GREAT Anthony Mundine.
Cotto's higher unless Kessler beats Calzaghe.
Pawned. Couldn't have said it better. I can't believe this is even an issue.
Cotto has a better resume, but only to American Media influenced eyes.
Yes a victory over the GREAT Marcus Beyer should instantly have catapulted Kessler into at least the top3 p4p. Beyer is a killing machine, ruthless and brutal, with the power of tyson, the speed of Roy, and the chin of Micky Ward. Before the Kessler fight I could never imagine such a fighter being defeated.
Hopkins was probably one of the 10 best fighters in the world 10 years before got onto any of these mythical 'p4p' lists...
YOu obviously have no idea how a p4p list is determined do you?
Cotto is a bigger name with a big name promoter. He therefore gets preferential treatment. All his fights are on HBO and Showtime, so writers have more opportunities to watch him. There's alot of great fighters out there who the so called experts ignore. It's ridiculous. Look at Dan Rafael's p4p list. He has Margarito ahead of Kessler. There is no way that anyone who has seen these two fight should have Margarito ahead of Kessler. B-Hop, Winky, and Calzaghe were whoopin ass for years, but didn't get put on the p4p lists until they beat a big named fighter(even if that big named fighter was inferior to them skillwise).
Guys making the p4p list is all about putting in top performances against top opponents. It has nothing to do with one persons biased perception of who they think is the more gifted fighter. It is the only fair way to really determine how good a fighter really is. Beating up bums in sensational fashion will never help you climb the p4p ladder. As such, guys like Kessler who have really beaten nobody in comparison to guys like Cotto, will naturally be lower on the p4p list. It doesn't necessarily mean that he is a much worse fighter, but rather that he has yet to prove his skills against TRUE top level fighters.
dumdane
08-13-2007, 11:15 PM
Kessler is a smart fighter. That is his only advantage. His defense is horrific and he is not busy. Cotto way better quality. Keep sleeping on this guy, Cotto is the real deal.
Kessler's defence is based on controll of distance. Whether you like it or not, it works brilliantly. Why is it horrific when he hardly ever gets hit?
Toopretty
08-13-2007, 11:20 PM
Kessler's defence is based on controll of distance. Whether you like it or not, it works brilliantly. Why is it horrific when he hardly ever gets hit?
He gets hit. He just never fought a good boxer. Calzaghe will whoop him. He cant control Calzaghe's distance or that of any good boxer.
Toopretty
08-13-2007, 11:21 PM
Kessler's defence is based on controll of distance. Whether you like it or not, it works brilliantly. Why is it horrific when he hardly ever gets hit?
I do admit that he is a very smart fighter and is a calculating fighter. Dont get me wrong, he is no bum. But I think Calzaghe has his #.
China_hand_Joe
08-14-2007, 08:57 AM
Guys making the p4p list is all about putting in top performances against top opponents. It has nothing to do with one persons biased perception of who they think is the more gifted fighter. It is the complete opposite mate. You are confusing greatness and P4P bestness.
It is the complete opposite mate. You are confusing greatness and P4P bestness.
Why do fighters only make the p4p list then after beating other top p4p fighters? How do you think it works, because that has always clearly been my understanding.
Korn_06
08-14-2007, 11:39 PM
I really like Cotto. I think he deserves his spot on the P4P list. In regards to Kessler I dont think he can claim a spot until he beats Calzaghe. That however will be an achievement that should send him quite far up (4-7) on the P4P list.
For now there is not much relevance in discussing Kesslers P4P status.
Korn_06
08-14-2007, 11:43 PM
Why do fighters only make the p4p list then after beating other top p4p fighters? How do you think it works, because that has always clearly been my understanding.
This means that it is virtually impossible for a Strawweight fighter to ever get a spot on the P4P list?
This means that it is virtually impossible for a Strawweight fighter to ever get a spot on the P4P list?
Exactly. When have you seen a straw weight fighter on the p4p list. I also went on to say in my original post that it is by beating TOP QUALITY opposition. So if a straw weight fighter unified and dominated their division then they would be a great chance. What I was highlighting is that p4p isn't based upon a certain individuals perception of talent, but rather on achievement inside the ring. In this reagrd Cotto out weighs Kessler at the moment.
Caper
08-15-2007, 12:37 AM
I really like Cotto. I think he deserves his spot on the P4P list. In regards to Kessler I dont think he can claim a spot until he beats Calzaghe. That however will be an achievement that should send him quite far up (4-7) on the P4P list.
For now there is not much relevance in discussing Kesslers P4P status.
Good man, good luck to your boy Kessler I hope the fight lives up to the hype. If Kessler can deal with Calzaghes hand speed he will have a great opportunity to become the 168lbs King.
China_hand_Joe
08-15-2007, 07:44 AM
Why do fighters only make the p4p list then after beating other top p4p fighters? How do you think it works, because that has always clearly been my understanding.
Because the P4P lists are flawed.
P4P by it's true and pure definition is about ones ability at their own weight. Which is why Calzaghe, without beating too many legends was P4P number one from roughly 2000 until 2007 (Calzaghe may have aged since then and may now be slightly lower.)
The P4P lists being based on resume is part of the Anti-European American boxing media conspiracy. As only American (North and South American) names matter, they are hugely American biased.
Silverfox
08-15-2007, 10:39 AM
Much better than Kessler!
Because the P4P lists are flawed.
P4P by it's true and pure definition is about ones ability at their own weight. Which is why Calzaghe, without beating too many legends was P4P number one from roughly 2000 until 2007 (Calzaghe may have aged since then and may now be slightly lower.)
The P4P lists being based on resume is part of the Anti-European American boxing media conspiracy. As only American (North and South American) names matter, they are hugely American biased.
Many journalists, if not most, actually include one's achievements at their own weight in this very definition. For example, beating up a prime Paul Briggs at 175 may be physically easier than beating up a prime David Tua at Heavyweight, but in terms of P4P achievement (ie a 175 lber beating Briggs and a HW beating Tua), the achievements could be placed at a similar level, argued back and forth, etc.
Clearly achievements factor heavily into the P4P rankings.
China_hand_Joe
08-15-2007, 08:53 PM
Many journalists, if not most, actually include one's achievements at their own weight in this very definition. For example, beating up a prime Paul Briggs at 175 may be physically easier than beating up a prime David Tua at Heavyweight, but in terms of P4P achievement (ie a 175 lber beating Briggs and a HW beating Tua), the achievements could be placed at a similar level, argued back and forth, etc.
Clearly achievements factor heavily into the P4P rankings.Achievement can be a useful indicator of ones ability, but is not the be all and end all. Joe Calzaghe would still have been the P4p number one, even if all of his fights had been against Eric Crumble.
Because the P4P lists are flawed.
P4P by it's true and pure definition is about ones ability at their own weight. Which is why Calzaghe, without beating too many legends was P4P number one from roughly 2000 until 2007 (Calzaghe may have aged since then and may now be slightly lower.)
The P4P lists being based on resume is part of the Anti-European American boxing media conspiracy. As only American (North and South American) names matter, they are hugely American biased.
How can you prove that Calzaghe has more ability then any other fighter though? You can't. The only way to judge p4p ability is to look at how fighters achieve against top quality opponents. For instance, I believe that Miguel Cotto is one of the most talented fighters in the sport. I also realise that because this is just my opinion, and like any opinion it carries my own bias and preferences, that it can not possibly be considered fact. Because of this, the only possible way to actually prove he is talented is to judge how he preforms agaisnt other great fighters. There are many obvious flaws to this, especially in the case of guys like Calzaghe who fought for an extended period in a division largely devoid of boxing talent. In cases such as this, the fighter does not have equal opportunity to rise the p4p ladder. Unfortunately, it appears that there is no real solution to this problem, as trying to judge boxers on talent alone would leave to much open to bias and interpretation.
I can understand your frustration, because IMO Roy Jones JR is hands down the most talented fighter of all time. Unfortunately, he is no where near the no1 ATG though, as he never had the best opponents to prove his skill against. Because of this, the experts will never get the recognition that I feel his skills in his prime truely deserved.
Korn_06
08-16-2007, 12:21 AM
Achievement can be a useful indicator of ones ability, but is not the be all and end all. Joe Calzaghe would still have been the P4p number one, even if all of his fights had been against Eric Crumble.
So a new young fighter turn pro, we have never seen any ability or any talent like this before, he can be the Tiger Woods of boxing, 3 fight 3x KO1.
Shall we put him as P4P #1?
After this he chooses to only fight 4 round bouts and only once a year or so, he does not want to fight the best but is handpicking B-level opponents with some reputation. Anyway he max needs 3 rounds to put them to sleep.
P4P#1?
CHJ, Calzaghe in some respects only has himself to blame. He wasted his god given talent. He never unified, never sent up in weight to try to fight the best, and never fought away from home. If an American did the same thing they would be scrutinized just the same. Bernard Hopkins wasn't popular with the experts at all until he defeated felix trinidad, and recieved much of the same criticism that Joe gets. IMO if joe really believed he was great, he should have chased a fight with both Hopkins and more importantly gone up to fight Roy Jones. A win against Roy pre Tarver would basically have made the top (or very close to) p4p fighter in the sport, and cemented his legacy as an ATG.
T.C.W
08-16-2007, 04:08 AM
If he beats JOE then he will be a top 5 P4P fighter.
albaneze
08-16-2007, 04:52 AM
Cotto is the man, Kessler might come near him once he beats Calzaghe which i doubt it a lot.
China_hand_Joe
08-16-2007, 05:52 AM
CHJ, Calzaghe in some respects only has himself to blame. He wasted his god given talent. He never unified, never sent up in weight to try to fight the best, and never fought away from home. If an American did the same thing they would be scrutinized just the same. Bernard Hopkins wasn't popular with the experts at all until he defeated felix trinidad, and recieved much of the same criticism that Joe gets. IMO if joe really believed he was great, he should have chased a fight with both Hopkins and more importantly gone up to fight Roy Jones. A win against Roy pre Tarver would basically have made the top (or very close to) p4p fighter in the sport, and cemented his legacy as an ATG.Calzaghe had chased Hopkins, to the point where Bernard had agreed in principle to sign for a fight, until he upped his demands to beyopnd what Frank ****** would pay. This was back around 2000 too.
China_hand_Joe
08-16-2007, 05:55 AM
So a new young fighter turn pro, we have never seen any ability or any talent like this before, he can be the Tiger Woods of boxing, 3 fight 3x KO1.
Shall we put him as P4P #1?
After this he chooses to only fight 4 round bouts and only once a year or so, he does not want to fight the best but is handpicking B-level opponents with some reputation. Anyway he max needs 3 rounds to put them to sleep.
P4P#1?They are unlikely to be P4P number one after 3 fights, due to the learning curve of the sport.
Joe Calzaghe started heading towards becoming P4P number one after Robin Reid fight - a competitive fight and a vital learning experience.
China_hand_Joe
08-16-2007, 05:58 AM
I can understand your frustration, because IMO Roy Jones JR is hands down the most talented fighter of all time. Unfortunately, he is no where near the no1 ATG though, as he never had the best opponents to prove his skill against. Because of this, the experts will never get the recognition that I feel his skills in his prime truely deserved.Roy Jones is a top 5 all time P4P fighter and greatness grows over time. ATG is about greatness, not how good you are, so vastly, vastly, vastly inferior fighters to Roy like Willie Pep get put above him. One weight champion Pep.
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